Meanwhile americans never had any delta wing figther.
>>61465072>Meanwhile americans never had any delta wing figther.The F-106 was too specialized and huge as most of the Century series. Similar to a MiG-21 and F-104 but far less stupid than both so it out-lived them -except for the improved MiG 21s that weren't far safer-.The avionic of the Mirage III was mediocre for decades.
>>61465072Mirages were popular among third world countries because the French would often sell fighters to countries that the US wouldn't sell to.
>>61465072Thirdies weren’t buying deltas specifically. They were buying mirages, since the French would sell to anyone
>>61465117This tbqh
>>61465072Convair made both the F-102 and F-106 fighters for the air force. They were pretty technically advanced dedicated interceptors and integrated with SAGE. The F-106 was never exported but the F-102 was exported to Greece and Turkey. They had pretty uneventful careers.The Mirage III was popular because it filled a demand in the international arms market that the US wasn't filling at the time. All American tactical fighters of the late 50's through the mid 60's were high end and tailor made to USAF and USN requirements. The Mirage III was smaller, cheaper and easier to maintain. The US reentered the market with aircraft like the F-104 and F-5, both of which were sales successes.
>>61465072Frogs will sell to everyone and it just so happens Frogs are obsessed over deltas. Most modern fighter wings have enough sweep and a sharp enough leading edge that they'll get most of the benefits of a delta though, while simultaneously not sacrificing their subsonic cruise performance and energy retention through turns. Euros really like the high AoA performance from deltas though which is why you see them still using deltas, though they use close coupled canards to slightly improve cruise performance but more importantly extend that high AoA envelope even further, optimizing for that first turn high off-boresight heater shot.
>>61465183>energy retention through turnsQRD?
>>61465210Those big wings act as airbrakes beyond a certain AoA. Deltas usually have their best turn performance in a pretty specific speed range too. Back in the day the IDF Mirage pilots would try to stay around 350 knots IAS against MIG pilots and would usually try to force an overshoot if one got behind them instead of pulling harder in the turn. They would call it "let him pass". ME MIG pilots had bad BFM training, if any so it was a pretty successful tactic.
>>61465235This is different than what you would do in something like an F-16 or F-18 for comparison. Both have good AoA and nose authority and you can pull hard. Modern flyby wire also keeps you from going too far and losing control. That was an ever present risk in older aircraft like the Mirage III.
>>61465210A narrower, less swept wing will typically have more favorable efficiency factors (due to less growth and separation of the boundary layer due to spanwise flow, amongst other factors). Pure deltas typically have pretty poor efficiency in turns at more reasonable AoA. At very high AoA, they rely extensively on vortex lift and produce substantial amounts of pressure drag. Other fighter wings will rely on vortex lift as well, but typically not as heavily as delta wing.TLDR You can get better lift-to-drag ratios out of a more "conventional" fighter wing than a delta wing.I'm making broad generalizations here BTW, a poorly designed "conventional" wing will perform worse than a highly optimized delta wing etc. TWR is also far more important of a factor than that though. You can also get the best of both worlds by using LERX which give you that high AoA performance by "seeding" the vortex, providing that sweet sweet vortex lift at high AoA, it's what gives the F-18 its excellent high AoA performance, despite its almost straight wings.I should note deltas also have other advantages, at higher Mach numbers they CAN be far more efficient as they reduce the strength of the shocks over the wing, however a well designed "conventional" wing with good airfoil design (and since the 80s really, good adaptive airfoil design, with actuators like leading edge control surfaces and flaps) can also be fairly efficient.
>>61465072Single engine planes are cheaper to operate.
>>61465235>>61465246>>61465269thanks for the QRD no cap. isnt turning and maneuvering obsolete now tho?
>>61465072>Americans never had any delta wing fightersF16, F104, F5E, F20 Tiger Shark, F102A
>>61465133Is the mirage III the only other no American western jet that had decent K/D ratio
>F-102>F-106>Cutlass (lel)Even more if you count tailed deltas>>61465101F-104 outlived the F-106 if you count other countries
>>61465562Maybe with 6 gens and drone teaming, but 4th gens were expected to (and did) enter dogfights. Even with a 6th gen, you probably want to have that high nose authority as insurance so IF you do miscalculate or get ambushed or some other reason forces you into a dogfight you're still able to sling a high off-boresight shot.
>>61465641>F-104 outlived the F-106 if you count other countriesBecause its replacement was late.
>>61465712There is no replacement for the F-104, it's unmatched in the most important metrics
>>61465718>it's unmatched in the most important metricslooking ugly and killing germans?
>>61465728Looking beautiful, fuck youKilling GermansLow altitude speed
>>61465718Not for the role in which it was used.And in combat was too similar to MiG 21, not that good.
>>61465737>Looking beautiful, fuck younah, it looks like the IRL version of a 5 year old's drawing of a fighter. it's fucking gross
>>614657464th gen/later third gen fighters that are good at everything aren't as cool as third gens. A plane that does everything well enough isn't as cool or interesting as a plane with flaws
>>61465748I will fuck you and your dad
>>61465754The F-104 was a manned missile tho.
>>61465578Mig-28s had a good record in Vietnam
>>61465072The F-106 was a very good plane for its day and age, and much better than that shitty ass avro arrow.
>>61465562While it's of less importance now, there's a reason the NGAD is being designed as a fighter rather then just figuring out how to launch AMRAAMs from a B-2 and calling it a day. Being able to dance to some extent gives you a better chance of surviving an incoming missile, as shown by that recording of the... F-15, I think?, that managed to dodge like 4 SAMs in under a minute during the opening of the Gulf War.
>>61465578desu the insane kd ratios mostly come from israel arab conflicts where israel used mirage, f15 and f16
>>61465562No, guns have been replaced as the main weapons but being able to run circles around your enemy and control the engagement are still critical during fights withing visual range. 6th gen Fighters will probably be able to pull some crazy shit but may be inferior in some aspects to 4th & 5th gens when it comes to visual range engagements. Or they end up vindicating the mig-25/31 by being fat fucks using their insane speed to disengage and re engage will
>>61465112>>61465117/thread
>he doesn't know about the cutest plane
>>61465072I don't get these threads.>https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-5/>France’s Air Force has taken delivery of 95 Mirage III C, 59 Mirage III B, B1, B2 and BE (the D version for the export market), 70 Mirage R and RD, 183 Mirage III E, and 50 Mirage 5 F, putting the total at 457 planes. The last of those planes were withdrawn from operational units in 1994. Some, however, were still used at CEV, a flight test center, after that.>The Mirage III/5/50 family points to France’s high-ranking position among the world’s industrial nations. A total 1 401 Mirage III/5/50, in 90 different versions, have been built since 1958. They have served in 21 countries around the world and clocked a combined 3 million flying hours.1401 minus 457 that's 944 delta wing Mirage III/V/50 sold abroad by France.If you add to these the 601 Mirage 2000 of which 298 were exported (soon to be 328 once Morocco takes ownership of 30 second hand Mirage 2000-9 from the UAE they recently signed for) and the 311 Rafale sold abroad, that's a whooping 1583 delta wing figthers sold by France since the Mirage III's first flight in 1956, 68 years ago, and certainly not all of them to poor countries.Now, compare these number with all the American jets often sold abroad to the same 'poor countries' during the same period. Meaning, what? Some Middle east cpi, a part of Asia, South and Central America, Eastern Europe? It's easily 5 times this amount and nobody cares.How do you go from this to the idea that either Poor countries like delta wings or that the French sell to anybody? While it is true France sells mainly to those who can't buy American or don't want to buy American, there are many poor countries that never bought delta wing fighters, or French jets, and many countries France would never sell jets to despite these countries being ready to pay.Really boggles my mind how these legends are born and spread desu.
>>61465570You know what I mean. Don't be daft.
>>61465562Being able to enter and leave engagement envelopes quickly is still a major key to survival.
>>61466532They're just designed to shill. Same guy every time.
>>61466588Who is that guy?
>>61465072>>61465112>>61465117>>61465130Hence why so many african and middle eastern countries also have the traditional MirF1
>>61465072the only AA shot down of the f16 so far happened from a greek mirage 2000 just saying
>>61465072>Meanwhile americans never had any delta wing figther.
>>61467938ah yeah i read the story how they were chasing the one greek mirage while they didnt (?) realise that the second one broke off and was about to turn on their six eventually he got a maneuver kill on the first one and a shot down on the second one
>>61465562Fighters need to be fast and agile for many reasons. But turning dog fights aren't likely to happen today outside of contrived or unique circumstances, such as in overly restrictive ROE where normal doctrine isn't permitted.
>>61465072a lot of them came out in the late 80s to mid 90s when every country was building them for export so they're cheap. also >>61465117 and same was gonna happen for the typhoon before the project ran out of money
>>61466122>Or they end up vindicating the avro arrowftfy
>>61469399The Leafcuck's eternal cope. Pretty funny how the bugs were fine stealing the Lavi and never even paused to give thought to stealing the shitheap Arrow.
>>61469465that's because the "arrow was full of SPIES!!!!" claim was american disinfo. the real reason it failed was the US wanted its homegroan plane to be the new NATO interceptor. at least every modern US bus is a NovaBus variant now...
mirrages are fucking piece of shits.
>>61470292Found the son of the Turkish F-16 pilot who got shot by a Greek Mirage 2000 iads.
>>61465072Delta wings are great but assuming you mean the most stereotypical delta wing out there:The US MIC can afford to specializeApart from that a lot of us jets have aspects of delta wings many have been posted in this thread already
>>61465117Francs was, still kinda is, broke as fuck. It brought in a ton of money.
>>61466532>Really boggles my mind how these legends are born and spread desu.They read it once and keep reposting it because it makes them feel very smart, it's one of "those things everyone knows" that turns out to be bullshit. Many such stories.
>>61469479No it died because it was obsolete by the time they built the prototype. The thread had moved on to ICBMs and the Soviets weren't going to make a Valkyrieski. The US mega interceptor programs were canceled too and they would have outperformed the Arrow anyways. Avro Canada spent a lot of time and energy developing a plane that was bigger, more expensive and slower than the F-106.
Delta wing aircrafts are pure copium for shitty aircraft manufacturers.The best figthers don't have delta wing. F-22 isn't delta wing. F-35 isn't delta wing. Su-35 isn't delta wing. F-18 super isn't delta wing. F-15 isn't delta wing.Guess who have delta wings? GripenThat chinese "stealth" aircraftRafaleEurocuckDelta wing is a cheap trick to increase fuel capacity and range, but it makes the aircraft a flying duck.
There’s as many retards in this thread as I expected.
>>61472022>Delta wing aircrafts are pure copium for shitty aircraft manufacturers.>The best figthers don't have delta wing. F-22 isn't delta wing.The F-22 is technically a tailed truncated delta.>Delta wing is a cheap trick to increase fuel capacity and range, but it makes the aircraft a flying duck.Sure.>https://youtu.be/StWKT1in224
>>61466532>How do you go from this to the idea that...the French sell to anybody?Not literally anybody, but almost every country that bought Mirages (or AMX-30s or Daphnes, etc. for that matter) couldn't get the American or Soviet (or German, British, etc.) equivalents for either financial or political reasons. The raw numbers are small because the economic footprint of those western aligned countries that couldn't get American weapons was small, but the French did indeed sell weapons to pretty much anyone that came to them with a suitcase full of cash.
>>61465072They’re less expensive to buy and operate. The US tested F16’s with delta wings but they lost too much in takeoff weight and range, so the prototypes weren’t selected.
>>61465718Flying in straight lines quickly?
Hello frens.
>>61465759You can't even end that sentence.>.
VGH..... WHAT COVLD HAVE BEEN......
>>61472022>F-22 isn't delta wing>Its clipped diamond-like delta wings Huh?
>>61472022you dont know anything man or is this just bait lmao !!!!
>>61474958Oh the Super Tomcat, Grumman fucked SecDef Dick Cheney with the A12 flying Dorito. And that's why we have a capabilities gap, because the F/A-18E/F/G was a great way to bullshit Congress into buying a clean sheet plane, made to look like something already in service. We got fucking robbed out of the F14E/F/ST-21
