>>61596384
whatever one you can hit with

>>61596384
Whichever one strikes his CNS or crucial location in hip bones.

>>61596384
My gangbanging unc took a hollowpoint to the face. It got stopped by his jaw bone lmao

>>61596384
>Which one is actually better at stopping a hoodie from jacking your wallet while you're pumping 87 octane at 2AM, regardless of the caliber?
Does this sort of thing happen often where you're from?
I'm not sure I've ever seen a 'hoodie', let alone been threatened by one.
Perhaps if you were to tell us about the last time you encountered a 'hoodie' it would help people in first world countries understand.

>>61596417
I too always aim for the testicles>>61596400

>>61596384
The 'extreme penetrator' is a meme, right?

>>61596384
They'll both do fine. I carry the XDs because in my neck of the woods I think max pen is better and I'm more concerned about bears, and I like lead free with my suppressors. But as >>61596400 and >>61596417 say with a handgun you're drilling holes and that's it, both meet 12+" of pen criteria, if you can shoot reasonably well and dump into them both will be fine.

The only real differentiator is some guns don't like hollow points. If so XD might be better. But you can only find that out by actually shooting them both.

>>61596384
The normal petal hollow points. Remember to shoot your attacker more than once.

Also you can always go full boomer and alternate FMJ with hollow point. Don't forget to rack the slide for intimidation.

xD

>>61596438
Hoodie, someone with a hood over their face. Quit being a retard and fuck off

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>>61596467
Hoodie, as in someone from the 'hood, the neighborhood. A basketball American.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPu47lXZzR8

>>61596477
Lmao bro stood on buisness and the sucker punching roach couldnt handle an ass beating

>>61596454
>The 'extreme penetrator' is a meme, right?
No? It's a monolithic that goes very fast, it definitely pens extremely well in all testing. The flutes don't do much but neither do petals, both do a little work and there's nothing physically weird about them.

You might be thinking of those RIP rounds, those were definitely meme and tested like shit. That whole idea is retarded. The Liberty hyper fast rounds are arguably meme, though you could be generous and say "special purpose" I suppose. Other than that not much going on in handgun rounds.

>>61596484
>egocheck someone by walking into them
>throw fists when they react
>get shot
Nigga had it coming.

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>>61596384
anon, you're using Phillips boolits.
Use safety boolits, they're more better

>>61596467
>Quit being a retard and fuck off
Oof.
>>61596477

the cope in this thread is extreme, pun intended.
>I didn't care about expansion anyway
hehe

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>>61596477
Wait for the end…

Why not spray the gasoline on them?

>>61596454
No, those screwdriver types are neat as fuck. They don't require expansion to work so they have no hole that can be plugged. I'm currently carrying Underwood 67gr 9mm that rips at 1,700fps+ out of a full size handgun and like 1,650 from a 3 in barrel. All testing I've seen has been pretty impressive. I've seen it go through plywood and straight into a gel block with all the denim layer bullshit on it and it didn't care about the plywood at all. Still pens to around 14-16in or so.

>>61597343
how are they innovative or neat if they're wounding mechanism is essential just penetration? they don't fragment or expand or tumble so what's so special?

>>61597380
>they don't fragment or expand or tumble so what's so special?
none of that shit is a factor in handgun bullets
>inb4 5.7

>>61596438
Listen anon we just want to grip a gun while we pump gas

>>61597387
>expansion
>none of that shit is a factor in handgun bullets
ever heard of hollow points?

>>61597262
Or like a dumb monkey he just wasn't aware of the 3D space he was occupying.
The vast majority of people are either too dumb or too unobservant to genuinely understand how their presence in a space relates to both the space and people around them.

>>61597380
The flutes cause some pretty good disruption at those speeds on par with a hollowpoint if you care, but penetration and shot placement is what matters most anyways. The flutes are to keep overpenning from happening, the extra flesh damage is a byproduct. They're designed to dump energy and not just poke a hole without slowing down.

>>61596454
Big game hunters have been using all kinds of designs (including similar ones to the XP) of copper or brass solids for a hundred years or more.
They were never that popular in America, but very popular with Safari hunters.

>>61597380
The fluid jets they generate does about as much or the same as hollow point petals, ie, very little.
>>61597402
HPs don't technically make zero difference, but they don't make much either. Handgun rounds are still just hole punchers. Yeah there's a somewhat larger hole, but that's not going to help if you're much off a vital point. You still need to train enough to do decent groups, and everything has so many rounds on tap these days.

I mean, I have zero issue with anyone picking any quality EDC ammo, but everything is playing at the margins with minor tradeoffs. I'd personally rather prioritize max penetration/barrier blindness and mildly lower recoil, but that's just specific to where I am and I don't think good 'ol speer gold dots are somehow a bad choice or any stupid shit like that either.

>>61596384
There is no verifiable evidence that supports any one kind of projectile being more effective at stopping an attacker than a different kind of bullet from the same gun. I can understand that people would want a hollow point bullet to avoid overpenetration, but despite decades of common use, there is nothing more than theoretical debates about wound channels in gelatin to support the idea that expanding bullets will more effectively stop an attacker.

>>61597471
>The flutes are to keep overpenning from happening
Never heard this one before and it doesn't line up with testing at all. The flutes increase the damage somewhat, and of course they cut weight to make the things go faster which increases their effect. But XDs penetrate very far and very well, much more strongly then HPs, and well beyond the 18" gel standard. I personally consider "overpen" to be a complete meme, and yeah I'm biased by living in a rural area but I think it's usually a meme even in urban ones.

But if one is really concerned about that, XDs are definitely the wrong choice from the gel testing I watched. I carry them because they pen more.

>>61597380
Supposedly fluted bullets cause more tissue tearing in their path because of the way the flesh and blood is shunted out of the way like a snowplow. Big game hunters have claimed that for a long time, anyway, but I never put stock in hearsay.

For me it's enough to know the bullet will punch straight through a man at any angle, regardless of any bones it hits, at whatever angle, even in a caliber like .380.
Monolithic solids penetrate further and straighter.

>>61597506
XDs and XPs are very different animals, and the XDs actually come in two separate weight classes under the same name, which is super annoying.

>>61597471
>They're designed to dump energy
your opinion has been discarded, go read more on terminal ballistics

>>61597515
>Big game hunters have claimed that for a long time
I assume big game hunters are using rifles. At rifle velocities this entire discussion changes, if you pen flesh at >2500fps with the kinds of grain they have that's a different potential set off effects. We're talking handguns though where even muzzle velocity reaching just 2000fps is insanely unusual and has big tradeoffs. At the sort of 1000-1700 range this all falls into yeah doesn't make much difference.
>Monolithic solids penetrate further and straighter.
Yep this is it for me, though I'm more concerned with bears then people but the logic applies even more.

>>61597524
>XDs and XPs are very different animals
Are they? Doesn't look like 115gr@1300fps is that different from 90gr@1550fps in quick tests I looked at. The 115gr technically goes somewhat farther, but both are well over 20" of gel pen, so IRL I don't think it really matters if one goes 21 and the other 28 or whatever, it's a lot of pen either way.

I could believe the 68gr ones act a little different because that's getting very light but the other two, at <10yd? Dunno. Seem like solid high pen ammo either way.

>>61596454
underwood extreme penetrators are a meme but not for the reason you might expect
they do penetrate far more than pretty much any conventional FMJ rounds on the market, but testing (youtube, for what it's worth) has shown that they're actually worse at penetrating -body armor- than the 68 gr +P "xtreme defender" rounds that underwood also sells, which are capable of penetrating IIIA body armor when fired out of a full sized handgun while also demonstrating (IMO) superior ballistics and wound capability, xtreme penetrator rounds cannot penetrate IIIA armor from what i've seen
so they technically do their job, but the company that sells them also sells what's basically a superior alternative that they don't advertise at all

>>61597598
Also I did see a few videos that went LARGER WOUND CAVITY OMG on one or the other which is a pile of horse manure, temp bubble in gel doesn't mean shit at those velocities.

>>61597486
>safari hunters
Do yoh understand why penetrating through a bunch of thick layers of flesh and bone to reach vital organs on, say, a charging water buffalo would be exactly what makes it inappropriate for use as self-defense ammo against a human attacker?

>>61597554
Suck my dick and balls, that's exactly why they're there.

>>61597598
The 9mm XDs go down all the way to somewhere in the 60gr range.

I can't speak to the specifics of their terminal ballistics, but 6X grains and 115 grains are far enough apart that I wouldn't be surprised to see a difference.

The super light ones, under the right circumstances, have been known to punch through IIIA panels, but it's not something consistent enough that I'd want to rely on it if that was something I really needed a pistol to do.

>>61597601
Yeah but genuine question: have there been literally any cases of some civilian having to do self defense vs IIIA armor, like, ever? Let alone it being common. I wouldn't judge it based on that.

I will say I lean towards the light ones anyway, just because if you have two loads with adequate pen and all else being equal might as well go for the one that also has lower recoil, less recoil is always better if it doesn't hurt ballistics. And losing velocity quicker due to being light doesn't matter at self defense range. But I'm not worried about armor, and if someone was really wearing armor crimes expecting to get shot maybe they'd be wearing at least high density poly plate or something. 68gr XDs don't help at that point, or anything else in any handgun round except tungsten stuff we aren't allowed to buy. If they're wearing rifle plate you lose unless you shoot them somewhere else like in the balls or face.

>>61597605
No.

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>>61596384
>you're pumping 87 octane at 2AM

>>61597630
>Yeah but genuine question: have there been literally any cases of some civilian having to do self defense vs IIIA armor, like, ever?
The most powerful and dangerous gang in America makes all its members wear IIIA body armor every day.

>>61597651
That doesn't answer my question. Do we have recorded incidents of civvies needing to defend itself against whatever gang you're talking about and failing to do so due to no ap load? The measure here is dissuading an attacker. Even if I had on IIIA chest, I still wouldn't want to get mag dumped at 5yd, and the odds of having something disabling hit even if it's not immediate death aren't nothing at that range.

>>61596384
in 9mm go hollow points but pick one with good penetration

>>61597637
Was hoping one of the homeboys would jump in the van, fire a shot, and roman candle their way down the road.

>>61596438
>black people? robbing in first world countries?!
>absurd i tell you!

fucking retard

>>61597637
Fun Fact: In the US, you can be sentenced to 10 years in jail and forced to pay a $250,000 fine for doing this, thanks to the EPA.

>>61596438
This nigger never been around niggers.

>>61597674
>whatever gang you're talking about
he was being cheeky; he's talking about cops

>>61598251
Oh, honestly thought he had some mexican gang in mind or something. If that's what he meant though it's less "cheeky" and more "totally retarded".

>>61597312
Wtf did orange trunks successfully play dead

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>>61596438
t.

>>61598274
You are infinitely more likely to get into an altercation with cops than anyone else.

>>61596384
If you live in the hood you're likely also a nigger and deserve to die.

>>61596541
>Ego check
>The nigger is literally standing in the middle of the only walkway like a complete fucking fag

>>61596384

I didn't know some guns could also be used as screwdrivers.

>>61599938
More likely, probably, but not 'infinitely'. That would mean it's effectively impossible to end up fighting anyone but a cop.

>>61599938
>You are infinitely more likely to get into an altercation with cops than anyone else.
No, not even remotely. Very, very few normal citizens ever get in "altercations" with the cops, or even encounters period. At most it might be a speeding ticket, not that I've had one of those in 27 years either. And then you just act normal and pay your ticket or depending go to court and that's it.

What you're talking about is apparently shooting the cops, since that is the only way taking about IIIA pen makes any sense. Which is fucking retarded and means your life is 99.9% over if you do it. In a normal self defense situation vs a criminal shooting them (and MAYBE they have a partner) is the end of the matter, after that you call law enforcement and go through some level of rigamarole and that's it. If you shoot a cop it summons infinite other cops and then more advanced stuff and you surrender or die.

Thinking some different load means defeating the US government is gay fantasy larp for criminals.

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>>61596454
>The 'extreme penetrator' is a meme, right?
Why don't you ask your mother?

>>61597312
Actual smartest black man in NYC

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>>61596384
Not posting the spiciest tokerev ngm

>>61596384
>needing to get gas at 2am
>not having gotten it the hundreds of opportunities earlier

>>61598274
>If that's what he meant though it's less "cheeky" and more "totally retarded".
Post your gun bootlicker.

>>61596454
Yes. unless you get them above 2000 fps the extra velocity is doing fuck all for wound width, and the extra penetration isn't necessary over good hollow points.

>>61597678
> in 9mm go hollow points but pick one with good penetration
Thanks for the info fren, didn’t know that.

>>61605090
I heard the solution to living in the city is just do everything early in the morning be home by 8am and they aren’t up yet so it’s safe. I make sure I’m home from my weekly tendie run no later than 0730

>>61598027
I'm pretty sure any judge would see that video and opt not to let the EPA assrape him considering he was getting cultural enriched, anon.

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>>61603848
Interesting... details? Looks like a hollowed out fmj projectile (orinal tok projo flipped around?) set backwards with a .22lr case stuffed into it. .22 short maybe?
>>61596384
Hoodoes are starting to wear gear, chest rigs and the like. I'm starting to carry projectiles that are more penetration focused because of that. Been considering getting a local cnc shop to make some of the 90grn xp projectiles out of aluminum stock (might do with a couple thou" shoulder to prevent setback and act as the primary bearing surface/gas check, while minimizng the bearing surface length to reduce bearing wear on the barrel. They'd be like 35-40 gr in weight. Might hollow them out and add a small lead slug backed up with polyurethane plug so i don't have to worry about the 25/75 ap rule to get them back around 45-60gr. Al would be much harder/deformation resistant than copper.
>>61597164
Not going with the THV inspired non-hp design.
>picrel

>>61596384
The one that's placed better.
>>61607943
>2024
>Still quoting the 2000fps + magic number
Retard alert

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>>61609932
>2024
>offering no counterpoint to well known terminal ballistics research

if you put 5 to 10 rounds under 2 seconds to the guy it will be dead no matter what type of ammo you are using. Exept blanks

>>61609798
Just a drilled out AK bullet with a nailgun charge glued in. If it’s 123 grain it ends up being a 70gr proj. I’ve been using my normal wst ball powder load that I use for the standard 85 grain bullet. So that’s 5.5grain of powder gets it going 1350fps. I’m just single loading cartridges so far. I think a ramp is a bad idea.

>>61609798
>Might hollow them out and add a small lead slug backed up with polyurethane plug so i don't have to worry about the 25/75 ap rule to get them back around 45-60gr.
What rule are you talking about?

>>61596384
The one you land a CNS hit with.

>>61596384
>87 octane
lol wut
What sort of third world shithole is this?

>>61597392
finally, some honesty

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>>61607943
Kneel.

>>61609932
KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLL

>>61599375
The best play dead you’ll ever see

>>61596477
>>61597177
You're both wrong. Just because you've assigned it a new meaning doesn't change its original definition. Calling someone from the 'hood' a hoodie is both cringe and retarded

>>61597312
Hey that could not have happened NYC has super strict gunlaws that make it impossible to have guns.

>>61612935
Considering underwood's own marketing shows them using synthetic ballistics gel, I just assume the ammo is shit. I'd be interested to see what the 9x25 Dillon does in organic gel/ real tissue.

>>61597276
I honestly don’t. Or not enough to care. I usually carry a LCP so it’s FMJ anyways. If I’m ok with that, why would I not be ok with 68gr XDs in my 9mm? I like being able to beat soft armor more than JHP expansion.

>>61597506
> But XDs penetrate very far and very well,
No you’re thinking of the extreme penetrators. The defenders don’t penetrate that much because they are so light. They are good for barriers though. Both types are

>>61597601
> which are capable of penetrating IIIA body armor when fired out of a full sized handgun
Not every IIIA armor is the same but I’ve seen videos of a G26 going through. You don’t even need a full sized pistol if you have the +P going ~1700fps. I’ve shot through a IIIA panel with a G19 and Hellcat with my handloads at about 5-7 yards. I don’t have proof and I was using a cheaper AR500 armor IIIA panel so take that how you will.

>>61615399
Look at the statistics
>Amount of people shot and killed by hollow points
1/10
>Amount of people shot and killed by fmj/monolithic
8/10

>>61597630
I think the Buffalo supermarket shooter had IIIA. Not positive though.

>>61598274
I’m far more worried about badgeniggers knocking down my door at 2am for no reason than actual niggers attempting it.

>>61615450
>>61615450
Anecdotal because criminals aren't buying expensive hollow points

>>61597312
>Saw (2004)

>>61615468
Havent you seen yt shorts? They're packing xtreme defenders/penetrators now

>>61607943
So does a blackpowder spec .45-70 of 405gr at 1350 do no more damage than a .45 acp at 850fps? They are the same diameter and both well below 2000fps. How does a .455 webley at 600fps stack up?
>inb4 .006” diameter difference matters

>>61615048
>his only cope about the ammo is something that’s not even ammo related
Please post any underwood loading that’s not close to the advertised fps with a normal length barrel

>>61615450
What does that have to do with my post?

>>61615399
>No you’re thinking of the extreme penetrators.
No. I am absolutely thinking of the defenders. This is what I carry, the 90gr +p+:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exx7yy67BZo
Every other test I see is like that, and the single time I got a chance to try myself it also matched that. They pen 18-20", and do well vs clothes and barriers.

Will the heavier ones do even better? Sure, that'd make sense. But I don't see anything objectionable there in terms of performance.
>The defenders don’t penetrate that much because they are so light
You'll need to point to some examples. I can believe it for the 68gr but I don't know about those, they didn't exist when I was trying different stuff out. The only hyperfast light ones I tried were the old liberty ones and those really did seem too specialized to me.

>>61596384
what about frangible ammo ?

>>61615895
>what about frangible ammo ?
Super fun to train with, and heavier frangible has actually surprised me in its utility as a vermin round. I was able to shoot a groundhog indoors in a basement for example, 110gr speer took it down in one shot and I had zero concerns if I missed or about overpen then ricochets even in such a small animal.

But while as a last resort I'd use it and I sure wouldn't want to be shot by one, and the wound would be insanely nasty, the whole point is it has very minimal pen. It's not a defense round at all.

>>61615920
Note talking handguns here. I have some frangible 308 too and I have no doubts that would kill someone unarmored at close range. But so would any other rifle round, that's a whole different class.

>>61615920
>It's not a defense round at all.
interresting, but since in defense the agressor is usually at very close range with you, wouldn't it be just as good as a typical FMJ round ? or the probability of having contact further than expected make it pointless ?

>>61615920
eh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6gOx_z0UU
honestly looks kinda wild
though he didn't try it with any kinda cloth or barrier

>>61615948
>wouldn't it be just as good as a typical FMJ round ?
Have you ever used it? Frangible turns into powder as soon as it hits anything hard. That's the point of it, you can shoot steel nearly point blank and have no issues. It's not anything like FMJ. That's not to say it couldn't kill someone with a luck shot but that's not the reliability I'd be looking for unless, I dunno, some sort of special situation where nothing is more important than avoiding any building penetration.
>>61615949
I know it didn't go all the way through a small ground hog, or skunks or other stuff I've used it on. I'm not sure regular gel tests are a good match for frangible. Obviously real bodies have bone and varying densities and typically at least clothing. With normal rounds that doesn't really matter much and is factored into the old FBI standard, they'll pen hard stuff, if they hit heavy bone they'll at least ricochet around and/or break it. "12-18" is supposed to take into account bad angles and statistics. Frangible is so different not sure that applies. But I'm not an expert.

>>61596454
For you

>>61615550
45-70 will have the potential to do more tissue damage given the projectiles available for it. assuming they're all using non expanding projectiles, the permanent width will be similar, with 45-70 penetrating the deepest, and the Webley will penetrate the least.
>>61615559
>Developing and testing projectiles with a material that isn't a proper tissue stimulant could never effect the outcome of the product
It's meme ammo. When did I say you wouldn't get box velocities?

>>61596400
This

Get a Glock17 with an mag extension. ~20 chances to not miss a relatively strong round is the best insurance I can think of

>>61615048
>organic gel/ real tissue
The reason bone gelatin is preferred is because, if properly conditioned and calibrated, it conforms to FBI test protocols allowing for comparisons between similar tests on known good loads, not because it's a better test medium or magically tells you anything about performance in meat. All gel is a shit medium, but it's really easy to maintain consistency. Real tissue is shit for consistency.
If Underwood uses another gel in the same conditions for each firing, you can use that to compare their loadings just as well as anything else. You just can't compare it to e.g. a 9mm Silvertip from 1979.

>>61615975
Pistol frangibles are a good bit chunkier than whatever you're popping skunks with, they'll frag on sufficiently thick bone but they're going to make a hell of a mess doing it and something with a bit of give like a rib isn't going to dust them like a plate will, it's sintered metal not a Prince Rupert’s drop.
In any case think about it, a V-Max isn't getting through a squirrel and you really don't want to catch one of those.

>>61600580
>t. gigabootlicker

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>>61616566
>Pistol frangibles are a good bit chunkier than whatever you're popping skunks with
I'm using pistol frangibles anon, like I said. Pic related is my favorite of the last 5 years or so, though sadly it's become stupid fucking expensive for some reason. NPA stuff is also good but also expensive though contract overruns sometimes get a little cheaper if you can catch them. The lighter slower really cheapshit is at least cheap but I see a solid 10% fail out of my last batch.

>>61616590
Sorry, meant to add that that said you're right, seeing some gel testing has made me reevaluate a bit. But I still wouldn't use it for EDC unless there was no other choice or it was some special situation, I'm in a rural area and mostly carry due to bears. I don't see any reason not to go with gold dots or underwood. And I did say that absolutely I wouldn't want to be shot with it and it could certainly potentially kill.

>>61616590
All of these problems go away when you use the normal RN version, not the fart and it disappears along with your wallet HPs or whatever cop--fleecer that is.

>>61596438
HOODIES could be here

>>61616614
If you can point me at decent 100gr frangible for <30cpr even let alone <25 unironically all ears.

>>61616464
>he thinks .45-70 doesn’t cause more damage than a .45 acp
Lol. Lmao even
> When did I say you wouldn't get box velocities?
When you called it shit while replying to a box of XTPs. When did XTPs become meme ammo? If the bullet isn’t shit, because it isn’t, then what else is there to criticize besides velocity?

>>61616717
Well, what you do is get in your time machine and go back about 5 years, then you buy a few thousand of the flat points and load them yourself. Bonus points if you also buy so many Murom primers you're laughing like a retard all the way through a pandemic.
Seriously though there's a Fiocchi loading that might be cheaper. Pretty sure those are the "solids".

>>61616529
No, calibrated 10% organic ballistics gel is a better test medium. Not only has it been proven to be extremely similar to what you'll see in real tissue, synthetic gels often vary in performance from lot to lot, causing under/over expansion and fucking with penetration depths. While expansion isn't a problem with non expanding solids, using mediums that the industry has already concluded isn't good enough to replace the real thing while trying to market itself as such, does not give me confidence that it does what they say it will.
>>61616789
>he thinks .45-70 doesn’t cause more damage than a .45 acp
Prove what I stated was wrong.
>When you called it shit while replying to a box of XTPs. When did XTPs become meme ammo? If the bullet isn’t shit, because it isn’t, then what else is there to criticize besides velocity?
It's an overpriced mono bullet marketed with bullshit. There is no good reason to use one for duty/self defense when ammunition that's been vetted by the FBI is available for less money.

>>61617205
>synthetic gels often vary in performance from lot to lot
So does gelatin if you're not calibrating it, dummy. It's fuck all like meat you retard. If hollow points expanded in pine boards they would have stuck with that.

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>>61617205
>XTP
>mono bullet
Are you OK, retard?

>>61596384
7.62x51, soon to be .277 f u r y

>>61616629
shutcho cracka ass up punk

>thread about projectile TYPE devolves into caliber cock riding
typical.
No, for you guys there's this video:
https://youtu.be/k0QWVl_uXCM&t=268

As other anons said, gel is quite a bad representation of the human body and is ONLY meant for having a standard to compare different bullets.
This channel's setup is still just a gel comparison, keep in mind. What he is doing is removing the initial impact shock and HP expansion to compare projectiles more accurately.

With that said, typical single block gel tests aren't telling you the real story. That inital shock expansion in bare gel tests is nowhere close to realistic. If your adversary is wearing multiple layers of clothes, and especially if they are a heavy weight person, that initial shock is happening barely more than "skin deep" and is not what is immobilizing them.
The penetration to a vital spot is the immobilizer, and as the vid shows all typical calibers achieve the same.

>>61600580
>Thinking some different load means defeating the US government is gay fantasy larp for criminals.
Post gun with timestamp.

>>61597492
This is only because there isn't an ethical way to test and/or much attempt to standardize shooting results and documentation.
1) You can destroy measurably more tissue with X than with Y bullet. That suggests faster blood loss.
2) If you really need to see results for yourself you can varmint hunt with pistol calibers using fmj versus jhp to prove a trend. Start with the most extreme differences, say a 9mm fmj from a pcc versus a 9mm frangible that only gets 8" of penetration. The frangible will break up and destroy more tissue because of the greater surface area.
>inb4 someone uses a bad faith jhp like a 147gr xtp for shooting 3" thick bunny rabbits and there is no time to expand let alone enough mass to initiate expansion.

Even in big game hunting where everyone uses expanding ammunition you can see differences. Copper expanding monos frequently get shit on because they don't kill as fast as a lot of lead bullets. It's not because the copper doesn't expand, sometimes in gel they expand the same amount. It's more likely because the front half of the projectile isn't fragmenting off creating more frontal surface area to disrupt tissue like a lot of lead bullets. Before anyone gets defensive about their copper monos, I do like them, they can kill quickly with good placement, and I respect the massive advantage of no lead in the meat to ruin your brain with.

>>61617205
M8, you're thinking of the wrong bullet. XTP is pretty old jhp design that relies on the older mushrooming shape for expansion instead of petals and is made of lead. It's considered budget by most. They've got a good following because every gun seems to feed that cone shaped bullet reliably, so reliably that they make an even cheaper variant called 'HAP'(?) That doesn't expand for people shooting tournaments needing reliable bulk in that shape. For people who hunt they've proven they expand reliably on fur, they don't over-expand (normally just 1.5x so maintains good penetration), and they can be driven pretty hard without breaking up.
Somewhat related, for guys who are handloading, it's worth looking into vcrowns now if you're trying to make self defense ammunition. If you really want cheap bulk jhp the berry ONLY 147gr at 1000 fps is also incredible.

>>61617205
> Prove what I stated was wrong.
Prove what you stated is right. Just to clarify, you are saying a .45 acp FMJ does just as much damage is a FN .45-70. All those people who shot bison with Springfield trapdoors should have stuck with 1873 Winchesters instead?
>doesn’t even know what an XTP is
You can google that if you didn’t know. But this proves I’m right and you are an idiot.

Are G9s even worth buying, or is the gimmick not going to do anything for the average joe?

>>61610312
>well known terminal ballistics research
You can find images of deer hit with .45-70 that left a fist-sized hole at 1800 fps.

>>61621210
I already tried anon. He’s insisting a .45 ACP FMJ will have the same permanent wound cavity.

>>61596384
>pumping 87 octane at 2AM

Why?

>>61596438
Oh fuck off cunt. You're an urbanite from a coastal city, so you know goddamned well what he is implying. You went a little too far with your agitprop this time, probably should just abandoned thread and take on a different persona.

>>61617255
>If hollow points expanded in pine boards they would have stuck with that.
they entire point of the gel is to simulate what is seen in real tissue. No, they wouldn't.
>>61619317
You're right, I'm aware of the Hornady bullet but I thought they were abbreviating their Xtreme Penetrator loading, which is the load the anon was initially asking about, as XTP.
>>61619535
>>61621210
I said exactly what I wrote. Non-expanding low velocity 45-70 is just boring holes, as is .45 ACP.
>Assuming the parameters you noted, somewhere around 2000 fps or so, the TC starts getting large enough to produce significant stretch injuries, but keep in mind it is a continuum. TC also depends on the size of the projectile--some slower expanding .45-70 and .44 Mag loads, as well as 12 ga slugs can also create an impressive amount of stretch damage at lower velocities
>t.DocGKR, https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-131098.html
Non expanding, 1350 fps 45-70 loads are not that. Nor is a non expanding load in a service pistol chambering.
> All those people who shot bison with Springfield trapdoors should have stuck with 1873 Winchesters instead
Do you think that 44-40 and 45-70 loads were FMJ in 1873? You're aware I already stated 45-70 will penetrate deeper right?

>>61622911
>simulate what is seen in real tissue
lmao no. That's what scientistic brainlets assume, probably including whoever thought it up in the first place. It's not what actually happens.
Less internet, more shooting. One day you might even load an XTP.

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>>61622966
>The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents.
Yeah.

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>>61622911
> can also create an impressive amount of stretch damage at lower velocities
It’s like you didn’t even read what you posted
>You're aware I already stated 45-70 will penetrate deeper right?
I’m not asking about penetration. Either load easily passes through a human so penetration is moot.

Post guns. I don’t believe you own any.

>>61623502
>It’s like you didn’t even read what you posted
you are illiterate.
>asks about bison hunters
>I’m not asking about penetration. Either load easily passes through a human so penetration is moot.
You are painfully stupid. Do you wake up scared and confused until your handlers soothe you?

>>61623648
Why didn't you post guns anon? You do own them right? Someone who thinks a .45 ACP FMJ and a .45-70 FN cause the same damage and someone who doesn't know what a Hornady XTP is obviously knows guns and owns them. Right?

>>61596384
>tfw no Dual Purpose rounds from Cyberpunk

>>61600074
>never heard of the words "excuse me"
anon had no parents

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>>61596384
>>61607943
>>61612935
you must kneel, to 2600 FPS

turn the angel dust tweaker's shoulder into mince meat

>>61596384
One is for screws, other is for nuts, simple as

>>61608801
>being afraid of the dark
what shithole do you live in, east st louis?

>>61597630
jewelry store robbery
mass shootings

>>61596438
>I'm not sure I've ever seen a 'hoodie', let alone been threatened by one.

I'm envious of you.

1: Had a hoodie try and pull a knife on me while I was waiting for the bus. Managed to trap his hand in his pocket so he couldn't get it out and fought him off. He ran, I called the cops, they showed up 25 minutes later.

2: Had a hoodie kick the door into my house at 2pm and barge in. Grabbed a knife in the kitchen, he had his knife, we went at it. He got cut, I didn't. Blood trail out of my yard, down the street. Cops showed up 40 mins later, they didn't try and look for him because "he's probably inside somewhere by now." Never heard back from them.

3: Got jumped by three hoodies and pistol whipped coming home from work. This one is partially my fault, the second I saw them an alarm went off in my head, I knew something was wrong and didn't trust my gut. Got busted up, cops wouldn't let me leave until some tech came and took pics of my face. Was there for 3 fucking hours just waiting. Never got a call back from the cops.

Never again. My state finally relaxed their CCL laws, I moved to a better area and got prepared, and I trust my instincts every time now. Haven't had any issues in years. All hoodies must hang.

>>61612698
Federal AP pistol ammo rule. There's two basic design features that resultnin a projectile being considered a restricted AP round. The first is a series of materials (iron, iron alloys, beryllium copper, tungsten, depelted uranium, brass and bronze alloys), the other is if the projectile is larger than .22 cal if the jacket is greater than/equal to 25% of the total projectile mass. So if the core is two-piece, e.g. a small lead slug backed up by a plug material, the core is two pieces, and also doesn't leave as large a hollow cavity in the base.

>>61607943
>unless you get them above 2000 fps the extra velocity is doing fuck all for wound width
you have NO idea what you're talking about, these are small pistol rounds, if you send them at 2k fps... you wont be able to determine what happened

gel doesn't replicate btw, you don't know how to translate gel data do you?

>>61624512
>The first is a series of materials (iron, iron alloys, beryllium copper, tungsten, depelted uranium, brass and bronze alloys)
Which doesn't apply to your idea

>the other is if the projectile is larger than .22 cal if the jacket is greater than/equal to 25% of the total projectile mass.
Which also doesn't apply.

You described a solid Aluminum projectile. Even if you jacketed it, it STILL wouldn't apply.

So what the hell are we talking about here?

>>61623980
Thunderzap out of the Big Plastic would break mach 3 easily.
Big Plastic wins again.

>>61624580
I'm sure you'll show us how.

>>61617824
PROFILED.COM

>>61624512
>other is if the projectile is larger than .22 cal if the jacket is greater than/equal to 25% of the total projectile mass.
That's particularly a fully jacketed projectile. As the other anon said, a monolithic bullet is in no danger of violating it, but supposing you wanted to make, let's say, an aluminum-core, copper-jacket design that was otherwise in danger of violating it -- just make it half-jacketed with the core sticking out the tip, and the problem goes away.

It's weird how people focus on that part of the definition, when it's basically never an issue.

>>61624865
it literally has the range of a spring airsoft gun, at 100 yards it has the force of an airsoft gun

>>61597637
I want to see the next 3 minutes when they immediately lit up after driving away

>>61596477
>sucker punch someone for bumping into you
>lose the fight you started
>come back with a gun
why do these hoods embody small dick energy so well?

>>61597637
>all that gas
still cheaper than if he shot a couple of them with his 5.7

>>61623980
>if you shoot anyone with this send us pics!
fucking based.

>>61596438
Fuck off with this retarded California take. You're in more danger of them then you'll ever know and when they approach you, you'll extend your hand to greet them and be stabbed in self defense.

>>61623980
I feel like it needs a metal core or base or something for some weight. You lose 15% of your velocity at only 7 yards. What happens by 15 or 20? I realize 99% of pistol shootings aren’t that far away but still I’d like more velocity retention.

>>61623648
Still haven’t found your gun anon? Shocking I say, shocking.

>>61624854
The 2nd part does. If it's an XP profile, with a hollow base cavity like the THV projectile. Unless I can argue that say a .075" through hole to the cavity counts as not fully jacketed. I would argue thats exactly what it means, but i'm sure some fag at the atf would be slobbering at the chops to argue otherwise.
>>61626022
I was also thinking of getting some libra snail type projectiles made as well out of aluminum, and moly coating them to reduce friction. I'd rather do the xp/xd profile however. Any idea how to sleeve something using few-thou thick copper sheet?

>>61632138
>If it's an XP profile, with a hollow base cavity like the THV projectile
Nigger an XP is monolithic. You described a solid one metal bullet and then said "I'm not allowed to use two metals, better add lead to it!" What in the fuck are you taking about.

for fuck's sake just draw a picture of what you're saying and where you think the two DIFFERENT metals go that would violate the 25% rule would go, and why you think putting lead in it changes that.

You're not making any sense.

>>61632138
COME BACK AND DRAW ME A PICTURE YOUR DESCRIPTION DIDNT MAKE SENSE IT'S DRIVING ME FUCKING NUTS

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>>61631290
Pictures of my guns won't make you any less retarded, anon.

>>61597798
It doesn't happen as often as you'd like to think. It's literally one of the safest times to be alive in the US. Violent crime is down exponentially from the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

You're like one of those eternally-frightened millennial anti-natals who won't have kids because they "fear for the future" when it's literally the best time to be alive in history. Lmao, grow up.

>>61632441
>>61634149
Goddam son. No pics. Refer to image search of your choice and use your imagination. I want to -Start- with an aluminum monolithic copy of an XD/XP projo. Al is much less dense than copper, but harder. I want harder, but can't use brass/bronze etc. So, Al. But I need yo increase the projectile weight. So I will turn a hollow cavity in the base, like that of a THV monolithic, in order to add a small amount of low density material, and then replace it with a smaller chunk of high density mat'l. The issue is if the core mat'l is visibly enclosed to the front of the projo, i have to worry about the 25/75 rule. Hence my comment here>>61632138
about drilling a small through hole and thus considering it "not fully jacketed"
Tldr- retard anon wants to overcomplicate things and waste money for negligible benefit.

>>61635122
>>61597798
>>61596438
The violence in the United states is hyper concentrated geographically to a degree that is almost impossible to exaggerate.
Something like 90% of the violence in America happens in 1% of it's postal codes.

That said, it's going to get a lot more violent in our lifetimes, but that's the kind of violence a rifle is the only choice for, not this or that pistol cartridge.

>>61596384
Just use the petrol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymK_vty6dTE

>>61596438
get a load of this niggerlover

>>61635122
>t. redditor

>>61639416
>I want to make an aluminum XP
so far so good
>because of the advantages Aluminum would have in hardness and speed
Right, right
>But I'm afraid this solid aluminum projectile would be illegal because it's made of two metals
What?
>So I'm going to add a second metal to it.
Fucking WHY