Ukraine is fighting against a much more numerous opponent with extremely heavy and deep fortifications. Would tunnels be a good way for them to evade Russian bombs and bypass Russian lines?Both the Viet Cong and Hamas have made heavy use of tunnels, for logistics, hiding their fighters, and infiltrating behind enemy lines. North Korea has also secretly constucted many tunnels to infiltrate South Korea, and the tunnels of Azovstal enabled the defenders of Mariupol to hold out for quite a while against superior forces.Tunnels can be dug with few resources. Reportedly, Hamas tunnellers equipped just with jackhammers can dig 4-5 meters per day. Ukraine has some 5.5 million pensioners between 60 and 69, many of whom may still be fit enough to operate a jackhammer or push wheelbarrows, and with proper shift rotations and better equipment,, would probably be able to dig faster than Hamas.These tunnels would allow Ukraine to sneak special forces behind Russian lines, deliver supplies to their forces without facing the threat of Lancets and FPVs, launch FPVs behind Russian lines to hit trains thought to be far enough away, move artillery around without threat of drones, store supplies, detonate bombs below Russian positions, and protect civilians by relocating the civilian population underground. Mud would probably be irrelevant 20-30 meters belowground, as well.So /k/, would it be worth it for Ukraine to mobilize its elderly population as tunnelers in order to gain a major battlefild advantage?
did you miss the like 3 battles in this war already where tunnels played a pivotal role>Mariupol (Azovstal)>Soledar (mostly abandoned by the time infantry reached the mines/tunnels, but sheltered from artillery)>Avdiivka (the only reason russians got a win at all was due to the tunnel discovery that compromised Ukrainian lines)I'm sure there are more examples I don't know about too
>>62091652Yes. Especially through the low dip high thickness (less than 2 degrees, more than 1000 feet) salt strata which is surficial in the central eastern part of the country and dips below enemy lines and has been worked and improved for centuries. Bring back actual Sappers for some kind mines of moria action or as a way to oopsie you have two armored divisions teleport behind you because we have a JO with a a BS in geology on the general staff. You can mine through salt unbelievably fast. I prophesized the return of barrage balloons and now prophesize the return of subterranean mass assault. It will be glorious and successful. Heed me.
>>62091652No, that would be retarded. Operational tunnels makes sense for Hamas and NK who had years to build them, and knew where they were going to fight (in a relativly small geographic area such as palestine or the DMZ). Ukraine converting old people into lung cancer victims doesnt make any sense when you consider that if the front shifts 2 km all that work might turn out to be useless. As for building air raid shelters, underground command bunkers etc? Yes, that makes sense and thats why everyone in europe has done so since before WW2.
>>62091652Ukraine needs to pick the stealth general for that.
Ty for posting this, it was entertaining
>>62091652give this to ukraine
>>62091683based and prince Kassad pilled
>>62091667Mmm, yummy. These are the best garlloids I have ever seen.
>>62091667I literally mentioned Mariupol in my post, and I heard about the tunnel in Avdiivka, though not Soledar. I’m saying that tunnels are useful, and Ukraine should dig them.>>62091674The war in Ukraine could definitely last for years. Russia still has a lot of vehicles and nearly all of its manpower intact. Even after burning through the Soviet inheritance, Russia will be able to hold the line with mass conscripts in trenches, FPVs, aviation, and enormously deep and dense minefields. Also, Russia only burnt through 44% of its cash in 2 years of war, which means they can last another 2 years or so before running out of cash, at which point they can start borrowing money, which will last several more years, at which point they can start printing money, which will make the debts vanish and let them pay the bills for several more years before the country finally implodes. Russia can probably keep the war up for another ten years, minimum.And the front lines shift fairly rarely in Ukraine. Russia pushes forwards like 50 meters a day in the East, with occasional 1-2 km breakthroughs on a small area, but creating a massive set of parallel tunnels in the south would probably not cause issues with tunnel mouths being overrun. And tunnels behind the lines for moving supplies should be safe as well.Also, if some old people die, that reduces pension expenditures, this benefitting Ukraine’s economy.>>62091701That requires too much logistics to maintain beneath enemy lines, and is very costly and probably easy to detect. The point is to find tactics capable of using Ukraine’s massive pool of untapped manpower and not a lot of resources. Also, single big tunnels are easier to bomb than tons of smaller ones that twist and turn and branch everywhere.
>>62091652>would it be worth it for Ukraine to mobilize its elderly populationWhat age range is this?Is it the typical 60 and older, or is it anyone who hasn't been force conscripted?
>>62091652Digging deep is always good. Go deep enough and nukes can't get you.
>>62091838I dont know what sort of drugs you are on, but creating a massive set of literally anything requies a massive investment in either time, money, work or most liekly all three, so how about you just put that workforce into something usefull instead, like arms manufacturing. Building tunnels is difficult, especially large enough ones to be of any loristical value. >Ukraine will benefit economically if its people die! At that point they might aswell just give up, if you no longer want to save your people, why fight at all in the first place
>>620918605.5 million between 60 and 69. Some of them will be unhealthy, but some are mostly fine.>>62091900Hamas can dig tunnel with very little money, compensating by doing a lot of work. Ukraine has a large workforce of younger elderly to do work. And most tunnellers will survive, and the elderly will probably end up on the streets at best (with their property confiscated to give to Russians) if they lose the war, anyways.
>>62091900And arms manufacturing requires resources, of which Ukraine has limited amounts, while tunnelling just requires jackhammers (which can be battery powered and recharged), wheelbarrows, and labor.
>>62091982Yes, Hamas could build tunnels, because they have had decades to do it in an area that is tiny. Ukraine on the other hand has thousands of km of frontline and exactly zero spare decades to dig. And thats not to mention how radically different the geological situation is.
>>62091993If you can set up a production of thousands of jackhammers and digging equipment, you can set up production of basic arms or ammunition. If Ukraine somehow had millions of spare skilled workers, they would have put them to work at this point.
Ukraine has a lot more manpower than Hamas. They could dig faster, and they would be starting from many different locations simultaneously to build internal supply tunnels and infiltration tunnels. And the war will last for years, and if you go 20-30 meters underground, you'll find rock no matter where you go, and tunnelling through rock probably isn't that had, given that Hamas does it with worse organization and less manpower.>>62092038Ukraine isn't short of small arms or bullets, and jackhammers can be bought on Amazon. You don't really need skilled workers either, as Hamas digs tunnels using untrained child workers.
>>62091652Never worked in a mine have you?
>>62092178>Never worked in a salt mine where you work the face with a pressure washer and a forklift have youThis ain't metallic anthracite cuz
>>62091838>The war in Ukraine could definitely last for years.Nah, Russia is running out of artillery fast and in those wide open plains the side without artillery is just fucked, I'd give them 30 weeks . Russia could try and persist for a year but at that point they have lost their entire military. Its why the Kremlin is desperate to negotiate before they loose the rest of their military. They are only hanging on until their allies like Vance and Marjorie Taylor Green help them and that's false hope as well because they are defeated by November anyway and they will still be getting ample arms from the EU and have production. If Russia leaves now it still has a bit of a ground army and a bit of an air force. If Russia leaves in 2025 it leaves with no military and no black sea fleet
>>62091652>Orb of Pisskey removed from its ley conjunction>Kuz is barely under containment>Scrying chamber in Hyperfortress Avdiivka no longer being maintained or monitored>Still wants to risk Ukraine digging to greedily and too deepDo you want to awaken They Who Dwell Beyond? Because this is how you awaken They Who Dwell Beyond.
>>62091652Tunnels are useful at a much smaller scale, Ukraine is a hueg area and building tunnels to the occupied cities is unfeasible.
>>62091900Also building tunnels is one thing, building tunnels undetected is another entirely. Construction of tunnels of that magnitude would be impossible to conceal.
>>62092101>Ukraine has a lot more manpower than Hamas.Ukraine also has a lot more land to cover than Hamas, exponentially so. You're not even trying to think of the logistics of your stupid retard magic tunnels you're imagining, or the size of Ukraine. I don't think you quite grasp how tiny the Gaza strip is.
>>62092595This is way too optimistic, I think they will soon give up their entire country, future and the ownership of all current and future russian females to chinks and norks in exchange of them ramping up production in artillery and eventually temu jets wayyyy before they allow themselves to lose
>>62092178>>62092271What does that have to do with anything?>>62092595As of February, Russia still has 1.5 years of towed artillery and 3 years and 10 months of SPGs at current burn rates in their bases. While many of these are old, and they will run out of towed artillery to cannibalize for barrels before running out of SPGs, they will also receive artillery from Iran, North Korea, and possibly China, they do produce some new pieces, and their rocket artillery does not experience barrel wear. They also have drones and glide bombs to compensate for a drop in artillery fire, and will not need as much artillery if they stop pushing.>>62092620You don't need to build tunnels to occupied cities (though it could be a long term project, to supply local partisans or something). Tunnels just a few kilometers long could get behind at least a few layers of Russian trench lines and minefields, and trenches behind your own lines, which you can simultaneously dig starting from multiple points along their lengths, would also be enormously helpful for logistics.>>62092625Hamas manages to dig tons of tunnels into Israel across a much smaller area and facing a more advanced/competent enemy, and they aren't all detected immediately.>>62092629You don't need to cover the whole country. A few logistical tunnels and shelters are better than none. A few infiltration tunnels here and there will cause headaches for the Russians, even if you don't cover the whole front.
>>62092629Also, most Gazans don't spend all their time digging tunnels. You probably have a few hundred or at most a few thousand Gazans digging tunnels at a time. If you mobilize 1 million Ukrainian seniors to dig tunnels, you could probably dig much, much faster than the Gazans, especially behind your own lines.
>>62092678Don't ever (You) me again you flamboyant darkie
>>62091667>"Avdiivka (the only reason russians got a win at all was due to the tunnel discovery that compromised Ukrainian lines)"More info on this please? First time I have heard of this.
>Build 2-3 tunnels under the Dniepr from Kheron>Launch assaults across the river>When beachead is secured finalise the tunnels>Let the Bradley's and Leo's through and wreck havoc while F-16's cover the skiesThis better be the Ukraine strategy in 2025
>>62092678Moving underground in a salt formation is a lot easier than moving overland over 24/7 drone overwatch and minefields dense enough that even you don't ever have to touch grass. 500' an hour is possible and you have no spoil or tailings since you can move it into other worked out drifts or even just dissolve it.
>>62092703Such large tunnels would be very hard to dig and easy to detect and destroy. Also, supplying large amounts of mechanized forces through tunnels would be very hard. I was thinking of carrying FPVs to the end, waiting for a train to come, and launching all the FPVs at the train, using a larger drone that carries a Starlink antenna as a command relay as to not reveal the location of the tunnel mouth. Or, you take some AT mines through the tunnel and either have commandoes or partisans bury them in the gravel of a Russian railroad at night, so when the next train comes by, the locomotive is blasted to kingdom come and the whole train is derailed, becoming an obstacle which will shortly be showered with cluster munitions. Special forces could also just use them as a vector to infiltrate and then ambush Russian supply vehicles or assault Russian trenches from behind.
>>62092682Gazans tunnels are a terrible example because of the size of Gaza compared to Ukraine.
>>62092757>Partisan and special forces behind enemy linesIs this still a thing? There's so many checkpoints and checens running around now that I find it hard to believe that such operations are still ongoing.
>>62092783Can you read?> You don't need to cover the whole country.> A few logistical tunnels and shelters are better than none.> A few infiltration tunnels here and there will cause headaches for the Russians, even if you don't cover the whole front.>>62092880There do seem to be a few assassinations and bombings each month, and the partisans may be passing targeting information to the Ukrainian military. Besides, if there are large numbers of troops on counter-insurgency duty, then you can ambush them when they patrol and snipe people at checkpoints.
>>62091667What fucking anomaly is this?
>>62092913You don't need to cover the whole country, a few logistical tunnels would be swell for a city or town being besieged, they would do nothing for the distances in Ukraine. Your Gaza analogy continues being stupid and useless.
>>62091838>Russia still has a lot of vehiclesCorrection: Russia still has a lot of rusting husks, those that could be still considered usable are almost all depleted by this point. Watch Covert Cabal's video on this topic.
It's donehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odesa_catacombs
>>62091652two points>once found tunnels are very easy to make uninhabitable>some soils are unsuitable for tunnelling
>>62093013What are you even talking about? A tunnel from a train station to the front line would not need to be that long, but could drastically reduce the distance Ukrainian supply vehicles have to travel in the open to reach the front. You’d want multiple exits, perhaps in a wooded area, so drones won’t just loiter by the exit, but this seems completely doable. A >1 km tunnel would get you under a Russian trench and let you undermine it to push forwards, and a 5 km tunnel might bypass several layers of trenches.You’d start small and expand, and even the small stuff would be helpful. The best time to build a tunnel network is ten years ago (like, most Hamas tunnels were built after 2007, and they have 500 km now). The next best time is now.>>62093037Yet they continue to deploy vehicles. Even a busted tank can be made into a turtle, for instance.>>62093041Those are in one city, and not one likely to face ground warfare.>>62093047So why has Israel been unable to purge Hamas from their tunnels? A tunnel 20-30 meters down is fairly hard to strike without being able to drop a bunker buster from directly above it, and branches and bends can make that even harder. Also, I think soil is at most a few meters deep, so it isn’t that relevant to 20-30 meter deep tunnels like the ones used by Hamas.
>>62092950It's a recently drained drydock or a port during low tide, and those are normal bottom-dwelling sea animals whatever they're called
>>62093073just lazy, and I doubt that hummus has set up enough ventilation control to thwart getting gassed
Tunnels were used by RF to attack Chasiv Yar. There was an issue with the width of the tunnels, however, and this meant that the RF couldn't casevac through the tunnels at all, which really limited their effectiveness.I haven't heard of Ukes tunneling since Bahkmut.I assume OP knows something and is using this thread to mock Ukraine
>>62093073>What are you even talking about?You keep being told that the distances in ukraine would make a tunnel system unreliable, vulnerable, impossible to build without being detected and a waste of time and resources. The similarities with Gaza are null.You keep being given valid reasons as to why it's a stupid idea and you continue doubling down, then pretending you don't understand plain English. It's because you want it to be a stroke of genius, you didn't consider the variables and you're utterly desperate for validation.
>>62092687>Russians are hard stuck on Avdiivka proper, in some places the lines from 2014 haven't moved an inch>Someone in Russia somehow obtains some ancient schematics for an industrial operation from the 50s>There is a drainage pipe several kilometers long extending from the middle of Avdiivka all the way to behind the Russian lines>It's only wide enough to send one man at a time through, crawling on hands and knees, with whatever he can carry on his back>The first group is a company-sized element that gathers into a group in central Avdiivka and then starts attacking the Ukrainian lines from the rear>This situation is obviously a huge surprise to Ukraine, but they ultimately mop up this group by the end of the day, with concentrated mortar fire>Ukrainian lines get bolstered in the spot that's at risk, but Russians keep sending men through the pipe anyway>The exact location of the pipe entrance is unknown so it can't be watched directly>Despite concentrated mortar fire in the few blocks they can get to, the mobik stream continues through the pipe>Unable to find and stop the pipe, Ukraine finally withdraws from its heavily fortified positions before the situation gets worseRussians had to lose several hundred men for basically no casualties inflicted in return, but on a tactical level it was a literal undermining of one of the most well-fortified points in the entire war. It's actually an excellent demonstration of how important tactics can be - a bunch of mobiks with no equipment larger than an infantry mortar managed to force a withdrawal, while the mass armored attacks with obscene costs could not.
>>62091652Thats why I was wainting por an invasion of Odessa so bad.
