Would she have been effective if she ever saw real battle? Let's say she was present at the battle of the coral sea, or if she was in the tip of the spear at Midway. Would she have turned the tide? Could she have really taken several normal battleships at once and won?
>>62108541>scared off by 3 destroyersit was a bitch ship made by bitches, for bitches.>Verification not required.
should have just built more Nagatos
>>62108552Should have just built more Nagatoros.
>>62108541she'd get sunk from the air. carriers killed off battleships, end of thread.
>>62108541>coral sea>MidwayWhat would the Yamato even do at carrier battles?
>>62108634Floating AA battery and a target to distract from the carriers, followed by getting damaged or sunk by dive bombers/torpedo bombers.
>real battle>implying Leyte gulf was not a real battle
>>62108541>Let's say she was present at the battle of the coral sea, or if she was in the tip of the spear at Midway. Would she have turned the tide?Yamato operating with Nagumo at Midway wouldn't have made sense or a difference in either battle.>Could she have really taken several normal battleships at once and won?Wouldn't count on it.>>62108568No battleships were sunk at Coral Sea or Midway. Yamato being sunk at either of those battles sounds unlikely.
>>62108541They should've dropped more money in their Ku-Go deathray program (picrel). They wouldn't have won the war but we'd have cooler weapons in vidya gaems for ww2 japan. Kind of surprising that the noborito institute isnt more known they made some pretty whacky weapons during the war.
>>62108708Wave weapon Z
>>62108708Pearl Harbor would've gone a lot different if it was 300 Kates carrying Ku-Go deathrays.
>>62108749>everyone sits in hawaii and eats ice cream while a bunch of japs microwave their brains and crash into the pacific
>>62108675>No battleships were sunk at Coral Sea or Midwayneither did they contribute anything to the battles"battleships weren't sunk in battles they had nothing to do with" isn't a very compelling argument
>>62108749
No way Yamato could have beaten multiple modern fast Battleships. Standards or other late dreadnoughts, sure.
>>62108541She made a decent starship for Nip compensation nationalism.
They really dropped the ball on radar development. They independently invented the cavity magnetron only to use it for a deathray. The japanese had decimetric radar sets but couldnt figure our ppi to train their guns baka.
>>62108790>neither did they contribute anything to the battles>Yamato operating with Nagumo at Midway wouldn't have made sense or a difference in either battle.>"battleships weren't sunk in battles they had nothing to do with" isn't a very compelling argument>she'd get sunk from the air. carriers killed off battleships, end of thread.
>>62108541Yamato vs two fast battleships would be an interesting fightYamato vs three fast battleships goes to the battleshipsit would be like the Graf Spee at the Battle of the River Plate writ large
>>62108988And yet Yamato, when faced with 3 destroyers, turned and fled the field like a bitch.
>>62108564Should have just imported more niggerinos.
>>62108988>yamto vs two fast battleships>yamto gets shelled into a smoldering hulk while being completely unable to shoot back effectively because bugs couldn't into radar
>>62109223Optical fire control was the gold standard in WW2
>>62109229imagine night existing.
>>62108547Hey, that guy off Gambier Bay threw a coke bottle at them from a wildcat that was scary
>>62109253Which is funny because the japs went full retard on night gunnery only for it to be rendered totally obsolete by radar
Japan shouldve listened to Kaneda. They shouldve built the giant ultra dreadnought instead of "investing" in a fully fledged navy. What a waste baka.
>>62109361Imagine the smell
>>62108541The Yamato did see numerous battles on its journey to Iscandar.
>>62108547>all destroyers sunkwow
>>62109185i beg of you to actually read how the battle off samar went down you retarded pop-history faggot
9001 hours in paint
>>62108541>Saw battleNo because it could not.
>>62109389Anon, 1 destroyer, 3 destroyer escorts, and 4 carriers from taffy 3 survived the battle.
>>62109397>seething this hard instead of farring on sword for grorious emperor
>>62109223depends on when exactly the battle takes place>>62109229wrong, it was the interwar gold standardby late WW2 radar fire control was possibleCape Matapan was fought with optically-directed night gunnery; North Cape with radar-directed gunnerypretty crazy how fast things changed>>62109306the Japs entered WW2 with an early 40s fleet, same as the US, but unlike the US were never able to transition to a late 40s radar directed and fuzed fleet
>>62109487all the "le gigachad" DEs that charged the jap fleet were sunk, the japs retreated due to massive air attacks
>>62109486It could have seen real battle if it hadn't bravely run away.
>>62109368Raw fish guts and squid semen?
>>62109486Saw more engagements than any Iowa class lmao.
>>62108541All of the reasons why she "never saw real battle" are why she was ineffective and why Battleships as a class/doctrine were virtually wiped out in the 1940s due to carrier aviation. Even if all of those issues were magically solved and she got into a movie scene slugging mach with something like an Iowa-led task force doesn't mean Yamato gets to lay a card down saying "my displacement and gun diameter is bigger, GG". The IJN were falling badly behind in radar directing, and Yamato being a bigger ship means shes a slightly easier target to spot and hit herself. Hits from an American 16in/50cal would devastate her just as well as any other large ship even if she stayed afloat. So assuming her aim is just as good, and assuming her crews are just as well practiced, and assuming all battlefield information is equal, her only advantage is that she doesn't have to be as lucky in order to land a a truly mortal hit on an enemy battleship. So in this hypothetical slugout, she still has to deal with her upper decks being turned into splinters, she still has to deal with dodging torpedoes, she still has to deal with all the random shit that happens in real life (one foot to the left gets you a magazine detonation, one foot to the right and you blow up a pantry), she needs to hope that her command & control can withstand the punishment or kill the enemy ships before they can land those kinds of hits. She would not have made a difference, unless Japan had built and crewed two dozen of them for free and had the means to maintain them.
>>62109361I wish I had saved that post about USS Manifest Destiny
>>62109502>due to massive air attackssix escort carriers are "massive"?
>>62109530>More engagementsLike shooting at airplanes, running away from destroyers, or sinking a helpless light carrier without bombs?Sure bud.
>>62109600>sinking a helpless light carrier without bombs?Scuttled, not sunk.
>>62109502>all the "le gigachad" DEs that charged the jap fleet were sunkThat's one of the reasons they were gigachads.
>>62109361>500k tons>42ktsIs it powered by raw imperial murder-rape?
>>62109530Yea because the Iowa class's illustrious carrier of shooting at planes and shooting at the ground is so grand and auspicious lmao.
Torpedos killed the battleship (like they killed the dreadnaught). Carriers just made them obsolete. If a Yamato could have gotten into gunnery range of something that something would certainly be in for a bad time.
>>62109598god this battle is so pop historyified its not even funny
>>62109626Powered by the Yamato Nakadashi
>>62108541No, no, no. You are thinking in the wrong way.You should instead be asking."How amazing would it look, if this battleship was thrust against a Napoleonic era fleet"Yamaha versus Trafalgar. Both sides. One versus many. Many against few. Boom boom boom versus pow. Distance and speed versus sitting ducks. Quack quack quack, whack whack whack. Down it goes. How many Napoleonic superfleets would it take? What if it was grounded and only had access to its weapons?
>>62109684Yamato not Yamaha
>>62109530While it was more than an execution than anything, Iowa and New Jersey did sink a Jap cruiser
>>62109714HER NAME WAS KATORI. (TдT) She was a training cruiser and just wanted to teach seamen how to seamen. AND THEY KILLED HER. THOSE MONSTERS.
>>62109731>literal knife fighting range>stationary target>iowa still misses on the first salvomuh radar fire control shills seething
>>62109748Why did seeing this cause the american fleet (cowards) to think MURDER, DEATH, KILL.
>>62109748>14,500 yards>knife fighting rangeidiot
>>62109748>14,500 yards is knife fighting>(at least) seven hits in four salvosNothing about this action should make a radar enjoyer seethe
>>62109770kill all gachawhores
>>62109530You'd fucking hope so considering the Yamato was commissioned two years earlier than Iowa.
>>62109361This is fake right? Submarines were already a thing.
>>62109770because it was Japanese
>>62108541>Would she have been effective if she ever saw real battle?She literally saw battle tho along with her sister ship. Only to run away from a couple of destroyers and escort carriers of Chaddy 3, while her sister literally got BTFO by some fly boys.
>>62109397Read a book nigger
>>62109661>Taffys 2 and 3Ah, TWELVE escort carriers then.
Weren't torpedoes kinda dogshit though? I am pretty sure the dive bomber is the vanguard for the end of the era of battleships
>>62108547>Just drive through the torpedos, bro! They're harmless, bro! Trust me, you don't need to turn away and waste time shooting that destroyer to pieces, it can't do anything anyway!
>>62109500>but unlike the US were never able to transition to a late 40s radar directed Yamato seems to have been the one known exception to that. She accurately engaged Gambier Bay while blindfiring through a smokescreen.
>>62109976That book doesn't support your retard claim of " faced with 3 destroyers, turned and fled the field like a bitch" though. Why you lying like that?PS: Pic relevant is better.
>>62109998>Decisive Battle>unless 3.5 destroyers are present
>>62110017>No really, just ignore the torpedo run, they're not relevant to a fleet battle anyway!
>>62110026All you're doing is explaining WHY the Yamato ran away from 3 destroyers like a little bitch.
>>62109361Holy fuck imagine what the other navies would do in response to this top heavy monster. A HMS incomparable gangbang would have been glorious
>>62109661>Japanese are tired from previous encounter and by the grace of god the destroyers engage like they are cruisers and the Japanese don't figure it out until late into the fight, by which point the leaders spirit is broken and he pulls out.popified my ass.they were engaging the destroyers with shells set to pierce cruiser armor, so from their perspective the destroyers were just tanking ungodly amounts of fire that should have sank them, because nothing was exploding internally like it should have.Meanwhile the destroyers were happily face tanking those shots and turning into swiss cheese in order to make the enemy cruisers bleed.From their perspective the lead ship tanked a DIRECT hit from one of the battleships that should have blown it up, and it drifted into the rain before suddenly charging back out, firing at literally everything that it saw, somehow none of the ships it engaged realized it was a destroyer and switched to HE (like they did for the rest) until after it was sinking from the crew running out of material to patch the mass of patches that used to be its hull.That is fucking TERRIFYING to consider from the perspective of the Japanese.
>>62109993nope, torpedoes were far more effective at killing shipsbombs inflicted damage but rarely ship-killing damage, especially since battleships were thickly armoured
Yamato was rivet construction. Battleships are indesctructible.Here's some quick math on why it's impossible for aircraft to sink anything.https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/13909457/#13912937None of the Japanese cruisers were sunk by aircraft. America was completely screwed before the South Dakota came along and sunk kirishima.They failed to sink Tirpitz. Because they were able to flip it on its side, they could have righted it and kept using it. It wasn't even a kill.Japan survived the war with most of its battleships intact. American airpower was destroyed and they had five carriers in Korea.After Chosin air support never happened because they lost all the planes and began bombing civilians.
>>62110006iirc Yamato had a surface search radar, not a proper fire control one
Call me contrarian, but I think the battle of Samar is overblown. Yes it was only escort carriers with destroyers, and yes many of the planes weren't equipped specifically for anti-ship duties going up against 4 battleships and 8 cruisers with destroyers in tow (though with no aircraft of their own other than some kamikazes).Against them are ~320 aircraft with at least ~70 torpedo bombers. That's a substantial amount of firepower, as demonstrated by 3 heavy cruisers sunk and the remaining BBs and cruisers being damaged. All ships are going to be prevented from entering effective attack formation by the need to continously dodge attacks. The grand majority of that damage was enacted by the aircraft.
>>62109598I'd say over 300 aircraft is massive, yes
>>62109656>dreadnaught
>>62110081I dunno, man. If getting within gun range of the enemy's carriers wasn't enough advantage for the Japanese, I don't know what else the devs can do to help them.
>>62110094Dude so true, new patch when bro??
>>62110099I think it's a skill issue at this point
>>62108541Define a "real battle"If you mean a real battle between American battleships, if an Iowa pulls up, that wraps. Iowa will control the battle and just shell Yamato into oblivion with no effective return fire because the radar is made out of tin foil.
>>62110110Iowa vs Yamato is a roughly even contestOne ship has superior speed and fire controlThe other has superior armour and gunsThis discussion is older than the internet
>>62108541>Yamato would have been greatest battleship only if the mendly Taffy 3 haven't got in the wayLet's say Center force didn't turn away and crushed Taffy 3, do weebs really believe Yamato wouldn't be stop by 7th Fleet? Especially when 7th rapped Southern force without any major loses hours earlier.
>>62110042They had no perspective lmao. They didn't think the DEs were cruisers and immediately swapped to HC shells instead of AP because they realized they were fighting tin cans but the elevators were already filled with AP so it took a while to get to the guns. The DEs were largely ineffective in anything beyond harassing as the vast majority of the damage was done by the literal swarm of aircraft harassing the Japanese fleet. The Japs could've quite easily massacred the rest of Taffy 3 but they wisely decided to pull back in the face of overwhelming air power.
>>62110110Oh look, another "muh radar fire control" pophistory tard.
>>62110164except they did.they weren't aware of the profile of those destroyers so the ships were unfamiliar>nooo muh japanese didn't make a mistake they were just retarded and used wrong ammo on purpose!shut the fuck up retard.
>>62110164>two destroyers pulled up along a cruiser and literally blew it to shreds and set it on fire because one had run out of regular ammo and was using star shellsVERRRRRY ineffective yes.
>>62110166I'm glad we're finally at the chartposting stage of the discourse
>>62110184which cruiser was blown to shreds by DD fire?
>>62110197https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdcvDiA3lEfind it yourself.verification not required
>>62110182They expected to be fighting actual armored warships, not tin cans. It's quite literally in the AAR so you're just making yourself look retarded.>>62110184Chikuma was set ablaze by the DEs, yes, but she was actually sunk by torpedo bombers while the Japs were retreating. Kumano had her bow blown off by Johnson but survived.
>>62110207>gets all his historical info from a youtube videolmao
>>62110210nice job dipshit. you managed to repeat what I already said like you came up with it yourself>>62110042
>>62110213>dares listen to a historian who actually goes through the reports exhaustively>"forsooth! he has no bullshit that came to him in dreams!"
>be beginner modelfag >assembling 1/2000 Yamato (1945) from Recollection of Yamato set>notice unsightly bulge between Hull and waterline>"frikkin nips can't into plastic I guess">check reference diagram, can't unsee muffin top>scour net, Yam's love handles everywhereYamato is FAT!FAAAAAT!
>>62110217>watches le epic historical video>still repeats debunked facts about the battleincredible
>>62110225>debooooooonked>source: it came to me in a dream
I don't even know what people are arguing about here anymore
>>62110226>dude yamato was totally scared away by 3 destroyers dude XD>yamato actually savaged taffy 3 and sunk gambier baydeboonked
>>62110237if you are gonna be that retarded its not fun to respond to the bait, dumbfuck.
>>62110227
>>62110220She's a big girl
I always figured Nagumo retreated from Samar because with no Southern Force, there's no pressure from the south so his fleet will just get grinded away until the 3rd Fleet can make it down there. So he just retreated while he still could while the USN wasn't going to give chase.
>>62108541>Would she have been effective if she ever saw real battleSank a carrier at silly ranges. There were design flaws with the torpedo bulkheads that dramatically compromised their nominal protection coverage. Still took a lot of hits-- wasn't ever going to overmatch much as a port pony.
>>62110166If Japan didn't want to get made fun of for having dogshit radar fire control systems, maybe they should have made good radar fire control systems.Optical rangefinders are cool and all right up until visibility isn't adequate, and then they're fucking worthless. It doesn't matter how much armor the glorious Japanese shell folded 10 million times by the greatest Japanese smiths can penetrate if the rangefinder that requires an entire football team's worth of men to operate stops working for one of a billion different retarded reasons that the guy in the Iowa doesn't have to worry about because it's all been automated.
>>62110220She's not fat, she's THICC
>>62108977Are you agreeing with me? That's what it looks like to me. Yamato most certainly would not have contributed anything at Midway because at no point did the American ships even approach her maximum range.
>>62110959No it was pointing out you're arguing over some undisclosed strawman you created. There wasn't a claim that it would change how the battles turned out, just that it sinking in those situations wouldn't be likely.
>>62108541No, simply too impractical. Kinda like the tank Maus. Sure it could theoretically destroy all other tanks and survive everything but in reality it was just too impractical.
>>62111343What made the Yamato more impractical compared to a regular Battleship? It's not as though it had maneuverability issues
>>62109993They were dogshit early war but development made leaps and bounds
>>62111351It wasn't, and other countries would've built similarly large ships if the naval treaties didn't exist.
>>62110887Yamato's rangefinders were about as automated as you could get in WW2, certainly reliable enough to defeat any other WW2 battleship.Iowa missed the fucking Katori at 15k yards, Yamato was nailing an escort carrier at 32k yards.
>>62111351too expensive for serial production so only a few are madeeven the 18 inch guns are rare, 27 made 18 fitted. (could have split them between a greater number of smaller ships)too valuable to use in risky battlestoo big to repair in all but a few of the worlds largest dry dockslarge crew and fuel sustainment requirement limits what ports are useful for resupplyevery one you can out match is scared of you and runs awaythe forces that can oppose you are biding their time waiting for your most vulnerable moment
>>62108541>or if she was in the tip of the spear at Midwaylaughter
>>62111570>the initial salvo didn't hit therefore radar fire control badI've seen some disingenuous arguments on this site but this one's a doozy
>>62111813>therefore radar fire control badYes. The whole point of radar fire control was first salvo hits. But feel free to expound to us how the real purpose of radar fire control was to make sure the guns missed.
>>62111351Too good to risk losing it. Too big to make more of them. Too iconic to not make it spend 95% of the war as a propaganda tool rather than a weapon.The Japs probably saw what happened to the Bismarck and were terrified some similar fluke would do in the Yamato if they actually sent it into difficult battles.The ship itself is fine, excellent even for WW2 standards, but the issue with making a flagship of such grandiosity is that almost no mission is worth risking it AND fits the profile that it can actually be used for. Especially in the Pacific, where battleships were often difficult to find a use for, especially for Japan who spent most of the Pacific War on the defensive.
>>62110017kek
>>62111722>too valuable to use in risky battlesJapan did not have the oil to send Yamato anywhere. Low pressure steam and hull form were inefficient.
>>62111827>The whole point of radar fire control was first salvo hitsDumbass.Radar was because optics needed clear and lighted conditions.
>>62108547>scared off by 3 destroyersthe enemy now knows where your capital ship is, you must relocate before naval strike group hits
>>62110227Weebs can't comprehend that their wonder weapon sucked. Musahi was gang raped by a couple of air squadrons, while Yamato literally ran away from 4 destroyers despite having superior fire power.
>>62112129you don't win naval engagements by staying where enemy knows where your ships are
>>62108541She saw real battle twice, you ignoramus. Once off Leyte and then when she got shreked
>>62111813>missing means fire control is goodYou're gonna have to explain this one.
>>62111971>Too good to risk losing it.Is that why the Yamato took part in every major battle it could and multiple small operations
>before it was called "anime" by genYner children>before it was called "Japanamation" by genX hipsters >we enjoyed Jap cartoons
>>62112405Anime is what they call it in Japan.
>>62108541>Build 1 ship with 9 18" gunsShit idea.>Build 9 ships with 1 18" gun eachI am already smarter and a better strategist than the entire Imperial Japanese Navy c.1937-1945.
>>62112108Also - according to you - to ensure the funs missed.
>>62111570>32k yards*20k yards for the alleged hit on Gambier Bay, the longer range shot at White Plains was a straddle on the third salvo.
>>62108541>if she ever saw real battleshe played an important role in literally the largest naval battle of all time, what are you talking about?
>>62112523
>YamatoWhy doesn't the Musashi ever get brought up only to get sunk by more Avengers?
>>62108634Yamato was at Midway, she did literally nothing the entire battle except be AA
>>62113247Because it punctures the myth that Yamato could have ever done better.
>>62110136The 7th was nearly completely out of AP because they used it all on the Southern Force, I mean I think with that amount of numbers they would have eventually battered center force to death with their left over HE but it would have been dicy.
>>62108541>Would she have been effective if she ever saw real battle?It saw a few, did jackshit and then it sank.
>>62109607So does that mean the British in fact did NOT sink the Bismarck?
>>62112129>while Yamato literally ran away from 4 destroyers despite having superior fire power.She maneuvered to avoid a torpedo run before reengaging and contributing to the sinking of nearly every ship lost in Taffy 3. She only retreated due to withering air attack.
>>62113528>Yamato was at Midway, she did literally nothing the entire battle except be AAYamato was too far away from the action to be AA.
>>62109478I appreciate it
>>62108541>Would she have been effective if she ever saw real battle?Realistically Solomon islands would have been the location to use her and the rest of the Japanese battlefleet. Since aircraft took over the fleet strike role one of the major role surface ships like battleships could still do was physically holding and controlling territory.Since Solomon islands was a series of islands which both sides had troops on, troops who needed regular supplies of food, ammunition and reinforcements controlling the waters around and between them was critical. While aircraft carriers changed warfare by operating hundreds of miles apart, the needs of protecting / supporting the ground campaign forced warships to operate in very close proximity leading to large numbers of gun fights.Japan of course by the end lost this campaign but they kept many of their ships held back out of the fighting to save them for some imagined future decisive gun battle that would decide the war. However because of American industrial might, the gap between Japan and the USA's naval and air forces grew so wide both in numbers and technology in the years after the battle that deploying their fleet in such away again would be a suicide mission. If they wanted to attempt to inflict a major decisive defeat against the Americans, the Solomon Islands campaign was the one place they should not of held back their surface fleet.
> japanese lawmakers initiated a study in 2016 to research the feasibility of raising the yamatoany updates on this? Please god let it happen because that would be so dope
why do the naval campaigns in the Pacific differ so radically from the naval campaigns in the Atlantic?
>>62110184what about his wife?
>>62114990Germoid rats did the sub cheese strat while the Japs tried to do a carrier navy on fifty dockyards
>>62114990>Why are two completely different circumstances so different
>>6211302634,500 yards, and it's a pretty fucking close "straddle" if it damages the ship
>>62115208The shell exploded underwater, which damaged the hull. White Plains survived the battle, though, and the entire war.
>>62115235>White Plains survived the battle, though, and the entire war.That's great, but I don't know why you bothered mentioning it. Did anyone claim it was sunk?
>>62115250Just sayin', in case any random readers were mislead by the post upthread claiming Yamato "nailed" a carrier at "32k yards."
>>62115261Nailed just means hitting something, not sinking it. If someone gets hit by artillery but the shell didn't land directly on them, would you say they weren't nailed by the artillery?
>>62114990Tsushima absolutely snapped the minds of the entire IJN from highest level strategic planning (including the Emperor) down to the lowest swabbie. They were categorically obsessed with Mahan 2: Burger Boogaloo, even as late as july of 44 they seriously hoped to have The Big One which they would win because biggu battreshippu and this would lead to instant victory because the Americans would get sleepy.Germany's greatest naval victory of all time was not getting fucking annihilated at Jutland, so they never held out hope of greatness.
>>62115270>Nailed just means hitting something, not sinking itNTA but that's far from obvious
>>62115270I've always taken "nailed" to mean a direct hit, but it's a rather semantic argument one way or another.
>>62110065I want more /x/ nonsense like this, please
She will be in the future after globohomo surrenders the world to an alien force and humanity has to bad together to fight globohomo and their spacenggr masters.
Is it the same faggot that keeps making these Yamato threads?
>>62115734wow ~1 yamato thread a month, crazy! The board is being overrun!
>>62114834It didn't go anywhere, it would have been far too expensive for its worth
>>62108541Coral Sea, she's not much use other than soaking up torpedo/bomb hits. Yamato's original AA is very lacking.Midway, could have been good for bombarding the shore installations if the invasion force proceeded in. However once the Japanese carrier force was crippled, the whole operation was called off. Yamato's one chance to shine was at Leyte and Kurita forfeited it. >>62114738Raises a good point. Yamato and Musashi would have worked where they could get in close with the Americans and push hard. Night time setting, close range, where having more armor could mean something when you're trading blows.
>>62113575>The 7th was nearly completely out of AP because they used it all on the Southern ForceThey didn't shoot much. The gauntlet of PTs, DDs, and cruisers sank one Japanese BB and the other was already rekd before reaching Oldendorf's line.
>>62114738>should not ofDumbass.
>>62114834>raising the yamatoIt's in pieces!
>>62116378>soaking up torpedo/bomb hitsWould've let Shokaku and maybe Zuikaku go to Midway.
>>62108541VBAAIED seems quite fitting.
>>62109361Now keep it supplied.
>>62109770Because the only good bug is a dead bug,
>>62108541Should've built a super carrier instead: https://youtu.be/soEpAprko7w
Yamato tomato can into AA
>>62116378>Midway, could have been good for bombarding the shore installations if the invasion force proceeded in.The entire point of Midway was to draw out the US fleet into a decisive battle with the 11 battleships they were dragging along.
>>62117232You mean like Shinano?
>>62109361>42 knots
>>62109361Finally, a naval target B-17's could hit.
>>62111827Radar is important for effectively engaging maneuvering targets while also maneuvering yourself.
>>62109361Not enough guns
>>62117753Which was never going to happen because the IJN's previous success at Pearl Harbor meant the US still didn't have a full battleline. Early American strategy fell to carrier groups, submarines, and smaller surface squadrons. I almost think that the decisive battle Japan sought could have come if they just hit Pearl with aircraft and then proceeded to sail their surface force in. Not much the Americans could have done. That's all with hindsight of course. As is, Nagumo cancelled third aircraft wave because he thought for sure the Americans were about to come down on his carriers.
>>62109661Do you think machineguns and depth charges are a credible threat to battleships?
>>62119428>What is skip bombing?>What was the Battle of the Bismarck Sea?
>>62113655It was scuttling all the way down.
>>62119757>sail their surface force inThat would've ruined the surprise part of the surprise attack.
Where is Admiral Fukku Niggah when you need him?
>>62108541The Yamato?
>>62108541>if she ever saw real battle?the Yamato literally split a US destroyer in half with one hit
>>62109598>least unintelligent /k/ fagThere was support from another task force and from land based aircraft from Leyte. The figure provided on wikipedia is probably not even the complete total of aircraft that attacked the center force, since total operational losses of aircraft for Taffy 3 was ~130 (more than 220 total for the entire operational period).It's not like those aircraft even had to inflict some kind of damage or drop a nuke on the Yamato like some kind of fucking video game that retarded fags like you imagine what warfare is like, but they, like the destroyers, bought time while the CVE's floored it to rain squalls and were out of the line of fire. >>62110207>documentaries epic fail>>62110210Chikuma wasn't set ablaze by surface fire. There's shit tons of USSBS interviews on this with Kurita and other officers from the center force. The ships received, if anything, one or two hits from enemy surface fire. Chikuma which purportedly had its 'infrastructure demolished' and suffered a magazine explosion thanks to the laser guided DE gunfire was actually sunk later by aircraft after it became largely immobilized after its boilers blew up due to overpressure during the chase phase of the battle. Thankfully, we have photographs of it from aircraft and we can clearly see that this is bullshit and modern excavations found her torpedo tubes and turrets all in place, indicating that she didn't have suffer any magazine explosion. So yeah, Samar is probably the most pop historified battle in WW2. Tin can destroyers being smoked while buying time for CVE's to escape got turned into a David vs Goliath scene.
>>62110454Nagumo, not Kurita. And he retreated because, as he claims, there was a vague signal from the northern force about a surface action. A contributing factor was that a high speed chase was unviable without oilers. The retreat was a unanimous decision among officers in his force.
>>62124921Kurita, not Nagumo**
>>62109626There's a rule about longer ships having higher top speed (provided they have enough power), one of the reasons why battlecrusiers and fast battleships are very slender.
>>62108541The only effective thing the Yamato could have done was beach herself on Okinawa.
>>62108675>No battleships were sunk at Coral Sea or MidwayBecause they did exactly nothing during those battles.
>>62110166>What is the superstructure and the rangefinders and the radar and all of the other shit located above the armored deck that actually allows you to see the enemy you're trying to hitRemember all those russian tanks that get absolutely pummelled by 25mm Bradley rounds to the point of unusability? The 25mm rounds shatter the viewports, bust up the turret ring, and render the tank useless despite not penetrating the armor, and force the crew to flee the vehicle. Same concept with Iowa against the Yamato - stay at range, hit the Yamato where you can hurt her easily - the superstructure - and unlike the heckin video games, yes, you should try to cross the T. Close for the kill in the end, but you can just keep your distance and sting Yamato to death in the meantime.You don't necessarily need to penetrate the armor when you're dealing with glorious nipponese damage control, too. There is a non-zero chance that the 5 in gun ammo is stored in a stupid location and detonates in a chain reaction that ignites the primary magazines.
>>62109478Kek
>>62115261It's a hit by several valid metrics. Exploding under-water to inflict damage is how the shell is designed. And even if you refuse to view it as a hit, it's still a very sharp straddle on the first salvo from 34.500k yards out on suboptimal weather.
>>62126786It was the third salvo.
>>62125836The Yamato will be shooting back with 18 inch guns bruh. And those will hurt, unlike the Iowa's guns.
>>62110166Yamato is nearly invulnerable, but as others said a lot of systems can still be taken out of action by hits. This is why so much emphasis is placed on the *first effective salvo*. In USN doctrine the first effective salvo is what will often determine the engagement. This isn't me saying the Iowa is more likely to land an effective salvo than Yamato, by the way. From real experience we've seen Yamato firing with insane accuracy at long ranges, and Iowa dropping the ball hard on the only surface targets it fired on in anger.
>>62126786>It's a hit by several valid metricsCan we get the list?
>>62114990Japan had an actual fleet to fight with. The Kriegsmarine was non-existent outside of subs, the French navy was sent under almost immediately, and the Regiomarina was contained and destroyed in short order in the med.
>>62108708>>62108719What does it do?
>>62127289her armour coul be penetrated by the Iowas 16ins quite comfortably an her armour was not that great, the turret facs might have been hard to crack but given the difference in metallurgy her belt wass at best only equal to a KGVs and probably inferior, nd no one would claim the KGVs were invulnerable
>>62120278Neither involved B-17s.
>>62124921It was still stupid. They were never going to have a better chance of inflicting damage to any invasion force. Saving those ships just meant they were sunk later by aircraft.
>>62129913>The B-17's greatest success in the Pacific was in the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, in which aircraft of this type were responsible for damaging and sinking several Japanese transport ships. On 2 March 1943, six B-17s of the 64th Squadron flying at 10,000 ft (3,000 m) attacked a major Japanese troop convoy off New Guinea, using skip bombing to sink Kyokusei Maru...
>>62126786The shell isn’t really designed to explode underwater, it is designed to travel, underwater and enter the ship below the belt armor.
>>62125035You meanwhile, battle, cruisers, and fast battleships are long. FFS, you just said it yourself!
>>62129932Sinking 1 ship with 6 planes was their high point. B-17s did not skip bomb. Bismarck Sea was won by the medium bombers.
>>62127085The eye was guns had better penetration. The calculation is mass divided by frontal area, and the United States Mark 8 16” shell was very heavy.
>>621299591 ship with 6 planes is a great ratio for any plane. They sunk more than one ship in the battle, and at least some of them used skip bombing, you can't just deny reality. B-17s even managed a kill on a destroyer with level bombing (Mutsuki), though that required a fair degree of luck.
>>62108541>gets dive bombed into oblivion>dive bomber rams a zero fighter out of the sky as a "not like us" nail in the coffin of japanese bullshit
>>62110026>if only there were a class of ship that could engage in decisive battle even against fleets that had more than 3.5 destroyers
>>62128563>her armour coul be penetrated by the Iowas 16ins quite comfortablyYour posts could be penetrated by a grammar lesson quite comfortably.
>>62120278>skip bombing with a B-17get a load of this retard
>>62114738the pacific war is a great example of how subpar strategic decisions slowly accumulate until a sudden explosion of defeat. the war was over after Pearl Harbor but IJN always had this attitude of "well what if we just do this... " always negotiating with reality. I guess this is what we now call "initiative".
>>62115280kek this and also the proximity of Germany to Great Britain meant that Axis shipyards were getting pummeled constantly as soon as the Battle of Britain turned towards the Allies. the Pacific War was a War of Industry. It was so protracted because USN couldn't strike IJN shipyards reliably until well into 1944. so IJN could keep marshaling ships with their colonial resources even though in hindsight we know it was a doomed cause (actually it wasn't really hindsight because Adm. Yamamoto is on the record stating, privately at least, that if Pearl Harbor doesn't cause US to capitulate the war will be lost due to American industrial capacity. He had been educated in America mind you.)
>launches aircraft armed with torpedoes from 300km away
>>62131877It happened, read a book.
>>62131888>the war was over afterMidway>the pacific war is a great example of how subpar strategic decisions slowly accumulate until a sudden explosion of defeat.to this date that is what fascinates me about Midway. the battle was an accumulation of tiny errors on both sides until the scale is finally tipped.>naval code mistakes>scouting mistakes>navigation mistakes>aiming mistakes>ammo conservation mistakes>ship design mistakesetc
>>62131903>Japanese shipyard wartime productionWere there even any capital ships laid down and finished by Japan during the war? All of their battleships and cruisers that fought were treaty-ear ships at the newest. Only Yamato and Musashi were finished during the war, and they had been laid down and planned for years at the start of the war.
>>62109502>have overwhelming advantage>trade terribly against disposa-ships and retreat in disarrayA shamefur dispray.
>>62110164So many words to say they got their asses kicked and ran away like cowards.
>>62133664Unryuu, Amagi, and Katsuragi. Taihou had also only just started construction when the war began.
>>62133664Shinano, arguably Taihou alsoand the three Unryu class, which are fleet carriers by interwar/Midway standards
>>62133675>trade terriblyBy what metric? The circumference of your mother's rectum? They ripped apart everything that sailed their way and sunk a couple CVE's and damaged more in bad weather while being zerged with aircraft, and lost two CA's to heavy air attack in the process + one more that was immobilized by boiler overpressure and sunk later on the same day by air attack. The only terrible trade here is the one you made with your genes.
>>62133750>>62133734So carriers, but no battleships or cruisers. Remind me again why Japan decided to torpedo the Treaty System and its 3/5/5 limits on tonnage, especially considering how they then proceeded to not build much?
>>62133752NAYRT but trading three heavy cruisers for two escort carriers and three destroyers isn't a good trade at alla Casablanca-class carrier is like 1/3rd the size of a proper fleet carrier and in any case is too slow for fleet ops. it's not much more than a floating deck for invasion support and convoy defence. they're only a tiny step up from the Bogue class. the USN could replace those two CVEs in a couple of months.and the IJN had only twenty heavy cruisers IINMso it's a wash at best, which is a major loss of material for the IJN at this stage when they need to trade above par just to have a snowball's chance in hell >>62133777>Remind me again why Japan decided to torpedo the Treaty System and its 3/5/5 limits on tonnagebecause 3/5/5 was essentially 3/10 and they chimped out over that>especially considering how they then proceeded to not build much?because in reality they couldn't really afford the 3 eitherif we follow this logic train it goes all the way back to "why didn't Japan just do the WW1 thing and throw in with the Allies" or in fact stay neutral and attempt to unify with Manchuria and Korea, honest
>>62133797You're missing the whole context of this debate, the center force traded 3 destroyers and two escort carriers and several vessels damaged for zilch. Taffy 3's destroyers inflicted very light, if any, damage on the center force. These 3 cruisers were lost to air attack, not to pop eye sailors firing 5 inch guns with insane accuracy and managing to somehow win one on one duels with heavy cruisers. Also at this stage of the war, anything that removes an enemy flat top is a good trade for the Japanese. Those cruisers were dead fish going on ahead with the war without any kind of air superiority. The fact that the Japanese managed to close up and have some surface engagements in October 1944 in this battle is often highlighted as a huge strategic failure by the Americans, ever since it happened.
>>62133797What really gets me about Japan abandoning the Treaty System is that you can't even justify it as a questionable and risky decision done for ideological reasons. Any way you look at it, it was a bad move. If you are a Japanese naval officer fuming over the 3/5/5, you still have to know that it would become much worse in a post-treaty world. How many shipyards did Japan even have that were capable of building capital ships? Two? America had like six, and that was before America's war economy began to mobilize. Not mention all of the steel mills, component factories, and electronic plants that the USA greatly outreached Japan in. Japan, at all costs, needed to avoid any naval arms race with the United States. Instead, they themselves fired the starting gun.
Operation Ten-Go would have been mindblowingly based, and I’m mad that US cucked it out from becoming history.
>>62133883You have no idea the level of copium that the Japanese military was smoking back then. They assumed that the 2 ocean navy plan was going to be just as impossible to fund as their 8-8 plan and that Americans lacked the spirit to stay in the war long enough to win.There's actually a hentai doujin that explains it pretty well.
>>62133824>Also at this stage of the war, anything that removes an enemy flat top is a good trade for the Japanese.If by "this stage" you actually meant 1942 I might agree with you, but not now>PLEASE WAIT A WHILE BEFORE MAKING A POST>PLEASE WAIT A WHILE BEFORE MAKING A POST>PLEASE WAIT A WHILE BEFORE MAKING A POST
>>62133883oh yes, but like I said>if we follow this logic train it goes all the way back to "why didn't Japan just do the WW1 thing and throw in with the Allies" or in fact stay neutral and attempt to unify with Manchuria and Korea, honestit is what it is>>62133824>anything that removes an enemy flat top is a good trade for the Japanese. Those cruisers were dead fishstill useful to prevent destroyer torpedo runs and as antisubmarine screensremember, carriers were useful because the other tactics had their counter-tactics. removing one counter and going all in on another opens you up back again to the former.
>>62133752By the metric that they lost the war, and the cream of the Nip crop died drowning or screaming coated in burning naval fuel while our grandparents went on to core out Nip pussy during the occupation.
>>62134189>40s/50s Nip pussymid to low tierthey were ugly malnourished 19th century peasantry back then, not the hyper sexualized JAV wannabes now
>>62134189Actually, according to the United States Naval Institute, there was no rape or trend of sexual relations between American soldiers and Japanese women in the late 40s and the 50s. https://www.usni.org/press/books/rape-japan
>>62128536In the war not much it microwaved some stationary rodents to death and some "monkeys"
>>62129964Were the mk8's even available by the time yamato sunk?
>>62134166>If by "this stage" you actually meant 1942 I might agree with you, but not now1942 is worse because the Japanese could actually use the carriers lost as a decoy force. If we're looking for trade offs I think it would make more sense to do it by the entire Battle of Leyte Gulf than any one of the engagements alone.
>>62109361>mfw will never have a fleet of Tillmans engaging in a boss battle with a Japanese Goliath.
>>62134262Read Baby-san.
>>62135488got a link?
>>62134642Of course. Constructing a shell is much easier than building the gun and the ship that fires them. The shell was planned and developed after the Iowa was designed, but before construction had started, but there was no margin to make the Iowa’s armor thicker.
>>62135517eBay
>>62134189Mind your borders, Jimenez.
