Why bullpups never became mainstream?
>>62117277Do not redeeming the bullpup
>>62117277because they're not depicted in Hollywood as the "goodies" gun, is the real answer. Americans are a very monkey-see, monkey-do society. And rene studler fucked everyone around so much by being a faggot protectionist that the best burgeoning design, both of rifle and cartridge, got shit-canned out of exasperation and we've spent seventy years working our way back to it
They're more expensive than an AR while having shit triggers and no aftermarket accessories
>>62117277They were mainstream during the 80s and 90s. People can split hairs over minor technical issues like LOP and bad triggers, but that's all secondary. The ultimate reason is that the benefits touted by bullpups just don't matter. Not that having a 20" barrel in a package the size of a carbine is at all bad, its just irrelevant. Its not a deciding factor in anything, no firefight was lost because of the difference between a 14.5" and a 20", as much as people might insist otherwise. The AR does everything asked of it, and its utterly futureproof with how modular it is and how big the aftermarket is.
>>62117277Is that a FAMAS
>>62117349there is absolutely no way of substantiating or proving your claim. it is pure supposition
>>62117372That's this chinese QBZ whatever thingy.
>>62117372QBZ I think
>>62117388Its not supposition, you can see it all around you. >FranceDitched bullpup for 14.5" 416>ChinaDitched QBZ for 14.5" carbine>NZDitched AUG for 16" AR carbine>BelgiumDitching F2000 for 14" SCAR>UKDitching bullpup for an as yet undecided AR carbine>IsraelSticking with the Tavor for now, though they never really fully committed to it; and the ARAD carbine is growing in popularity among their SOFThe only conclusion to come to is that, while the bullpup is not without benefits, those benefits aren't considered important to a modern army.
>Why (did) bullpups never (become) mainstreamYou're welcome saar
>>62117464the contention that no firefight was ever determined by the velocity of a projectile, in reference to a cartridge which is designed around a particular velocity for its efficacy. There is no way to know how many outcomes were swayed by a shot that would have hit if it had been travelling faster, or would have been lethal if it had been travelling faster, or would have penetrated if it had been travelling faster. there is absolutely no way for you to make that claim with a straight face or in good faith.
>>62117464What about south africa
>>62117466does it matter? everyone understood question
I like AUGs
>>62117277Polymer becomes napalm when your bullpup has to go through a full combat load
>>62117277I only like guns if they have wooden stocks and/or nice triggers.
>>62117464>UK>Ditching bullpup for an as yet undecided AR carbineAh this lie. This and the gook thread, it seems warriortard has been trying to blend in for a while now.
>>62117608how is this a lie? they've already announced project grayburn, a plan to find a replacement for the sa80 series of rifles in british service
>>62117493That's an argument against polymer not bullpups.
>>62117593>I only like guns if they have wooden stocks and/or nice triggers.
Nobody wanted to retrain their whole infantry in a time when infantry combat is less relevant.Because of Ukraine infantry combat is a thing again and many forces are crossing over just because it's worth retraining.The bullpup was well regarded in COIN operations where many units were thrust into recon and vehicle mobile roles, but where adopting SBR wouldn't have been a good compromise. Indeed, many forces moved to carbine length barrels for this reason, before this we already saw front line troops jury rigging front grips, not shouldering, and hitting basically nothing because full length rifles were unusable in the jungle or inside buildings. The worse that problem was the more likely you were to jump straight to bulpup.Civilian shooters never had any reason to adopt bulpups, that meant in peacetime counties with major arms industries developed a lot more conventional rifles. At some point civilian weapons get better then military requisition weapons, the AR persists because it was refined so well in the civilian market. Stock ARs are fucking great. The cost of SPEAR is so high I personally doubt we will ever see full adoption. Hot opinion but because civilian shooters won't buy into to the cost will always be very high, police, auxiliary won't justify the expense, it will remain speartip infantry only. Forever.
Are there any bullpups that have decent, or great triggers? Are there any 3rd parties producing trigger packs for legacy bullpups (AUG, FAMAS etc)? I guess the market is rather small to make it a profitable venture.
>>62117667RDB and Desert Tech rifles allegedly have good triggers according to the internet.
>>62117644Not necessarily, because the issue with bulpups is how close the action (and thus the furniture) is to the shooter. The stock on a conventional gun never heats up, it's just not adjacent to the action. As all guns go polymer this hurts guns where heat shielding is already problematic. Many early polymer designs were unusable because they burnt the shooters, and this is still a modern problem.The austeyr is used with a vertical front grip by anyone who is allowed to use one, because the lack of front furniture always caused burns, the full length polymer furniture of the 80's only made overheating worse, and the new furniture really isn't that suited to a short barrelled weapon. They are used to it by now but American marines in weapons familiarity are like "errr what". They don't even want to cheek weld it
>>62117681wouldn't a metal receiver transfer heat to the shooter's face better than a polymer one?
>>62117667They've got much better, the long trigger bar is almost a historical material science issue. But I would argue this is more of an issue to civilian shooters, more concerned with marksmanship. Inb4 infantry make better groupings then civilians. Infantry are professional shooters who are accurate as a requirement, no matter what the configuration of a rifle is. A good shooter with a bad trigger still clears the bar, a civilian shooter held to no standard will always be frustrated with their rifle because the rifle will always hold them back. Even when the shooter is fucking cross eyed and whiskey tangled the rifle will still hold them back, even if the civilian shooter is making mile shots, they'll never say "that's fine, rifle fine".
>>62117703thanks brother>a civilian shooter held to no standard will always be frustrated with their rifle because the rifle will always hold them backI get your point, but wouldn't anyone feel held back by inferior equipment? But truthfully the Austrians I know never really complained about the AUG trigger that much.
>>62117699It's more about the heat building up. During testing they don't fire ten thousand rounds in a row any more, they recognised that that's just not realistic. In real conditions soldiers can only keep up automatic fire for as long as someone is reloading mags for them and everyone still has ammo.So let's say you just dump a whole mag into a bush because you're a retard and heard a yeti. Your rifle is now very hot. How long until you can sight it? Well metal furniture stops your dumb ass grabbing the barrel but it also dissipates heat very quickly, so it's probably hotter for that first 30 rounds. But after you reload, the metal furniture has cooled considerably, but the polymer has not. So there's a bathtub issue. The longer you sustain fire the more of a liability the polymers tendency to trap heat becomes. Until the polymer actually suffers material damage. It's nuanced but basically the armalite turned out to be far more marine proof than it had any right to, while the polymer bulpups had a recognised issue that was less relevant in practice.
Because when you ask the USA gay army about bullpups this is what they have in mind.
>>62117715>wouldn't anyone feel held back by inferior equipment? Because when you have to perform to a set standard and practical outcome it takes the ego out of it. If you shoot well enough to pass your marksmanship tests, if you shoot well enough for combat, if you actually dome jamal then you're a happy man. You're probably far more accurate than most civilians anyway, but that's incidental. You don't complain about the rifle because it did the job and there's no good star for pursuing marksmanship into achedemic territory. Precision shooters get precision weapons already, and you do see bullpup precision rifles but often in calibers where triggers aren't great in general. Those guys complain just like civilian shooters even though they're virtually the best in the world. It's about standards not skills
>>62117740There's a difference between complaining, or getting your ego hurt and performing to your maximum capability. If you are an inferior shooter you'll be held back by a terrible trigger. If you are a great shot you'll be held back by a terrible trigger. Sure you'll know how to work around it, but it will hold you back. Every bit of criticism by anyone regarding triggers isn't always about "complaining", it could just be a fair bit of critique without any feelings one way or another attached to it.
>>62117735dogmask kidfucker is capable of anything. Probably gets a leave pass to visit giantanimo, ac130 raw dogging a hospital, fucked a whole school of north Korean children, shits on Pakistan while pissing in a colonel's mouth. America's dogs of war slipped out of a sex offenders program and the enemies of democracy are not ready.
>>62117735russia losing to this?
>>62117294Still doesn't explain non-American countries replacing their bullpups for conventional layout rifles.
>>62117820that and retards in intel who all think they are neo from the matrix when in reality everysingle SIGINT and related is a 20 year old know nothing zonked on 10 monster energy drinks or a 44 year old lifer who is going through divorce 2 or 3
>>62117473Meaningless. The UK specifically adopted a M855 variant with a thicker jacket so it wouldn't fragment (L2A2) as they believed that 5.56 fragmentation was against the spirit of the Hague conventions. Then adopted L31A1 which has a solid steel core. So for them the fragmentation threshold doesn't matter for shit as they deliberately avoid the enhanced terminal performance. Their use of a 20" barrel bullpup could improve accuracy by ensuring less drop and maybe extend the effects of yaw through tissue but the fleet yaw problem with 5.56 happens mostly at close range and extra barrel length doesn't fully address it. Only bullet design like Mk318 or M855A1 gets rid of fleet yaw concerns. The issue with using specific outcomes of every single bullet impact event is that they rarely decide a battle for themselves. In small engagements they'd matter a lot on on the grand scheme of things it becomes statistically irrelevant. The guys getting hit and wounded rather than immediately incapacitated are still leaking and have a ticking clock until they expire, plus their performance has been hindered. While an icepick wound may still allow the guy to get up and return fire, his combat effectiveness won't be 100% as the pain and blood loss starts to take its toll.The outcomes of battles would be influenced by who has better indirect fire/air support, ISR, morale, terrain, etc rather than better rifle.
>>6211734914.5" barrels are literally the direct cause for 5.56 icepicking meme and also the direct cause for the US going BACK to a battle rifle.If they had used 20" in afghanistan nobody would have even thought of something as retarded as adopting a battle rifle but unfortunately 20" AR is too long.
>>62118023It's actually because of the meme 1:7 twist rate wherein bullets no longer tumble nearly as easily
>>62118023No. The icepicking was caused by fleet yaw. Before the bullet settles into a small precession you get a widely variable angle of attack out the muzzle and up to 50-75 yards you can get M855 to hit at 3º AoA and blow up like it had explosives inside or 0º AoA and sail through the target without yawing.This was fixed with M855A1 which has 1 inch neck of penetration in ballistics get and then immediately yaws independently of which AoA angle it impacts at.The icepicking had fuck all to do with the 6.8x51 because this was "le skinnies in Mogadishu" era 5.56 lore. Afghanistan era 5.56 lore was based on insurgents knowing that inside 5.56 range they were cooked so they purposefully shot from crew served weapons range.>>62118134No. Twist rate does not affect anything. Muscle is a thousand times denser than air so inducing stability would require threading rather than rifling.Early on the 5.56 wounding mechanism was not understood and it was presumed that bullets were tumbling in the air to hit people sideways and thus cause gruesome wounds. Obviously in hindsight this makes no fucking sense because keyholing bullets are inaccurate as hell.Because .224" barrel blanks were produced with twist rates meant for varmint calibers shooting 45-50gr bullets the 55gr M193 was on the edge of stability. In Arctic testing the denser cold air caused the 55gr to actually lose stability and thus 1:14 had to be replaced by 1:12 and since the M16 was going to get adopted it made sense to produce 1:12 barrels rather than rely on commercial production of .224" barrel blanks.Because of the initial misunderstanding of what caused the 5.56 wounds people assumed that increasing twist rate reduced the lethality of 5.56. But that's the problem. They thought that wounds were caused by keyholing bullets which somehow retained accuracy. Their thought process was incorrect.
>>62117464>Sticking with the Tavor for now, though they never really fully committed to it; and the ARAD carbine is growing in popularity among their SOFThe Micro-Tavor is what most Israeli infantry are using and the ones getting the arad are ones that have been using M4s.I would imagine having a short rifle is a plus in urban warfare where you have to clear corners in corridors and tunnels, whereas everyone else whose job isn't clearing buildings from the inside and is more likely to engage in an open environment use M4s
>>62117277Because it doesn't really matter that their rifle is a bit longer unless they're specifically equipping mounted or CQB troops.
>>62117277They initially didn't have good triggers. They do now, the hate is just millenial yoomer grandpas clinging to their long black falluses thay remind them of their beloved BBC porn.
>>62117277They did, multiple armed forces use them as their standard issue rifle. That's as 'mainstream' as it gets.
>>62117277QBZ, FAMAS, SA80, AUG, Tavor.Major forces using em as a primary weapon, large shipments, stockpiles etc. Dude. What do you mean by "never became mainstream"?
>>62117277Jews.
>>62117277>>62117922Institutional inertia, baby duck syndrome, and standardization in general are why. Popular =/= good.
Because the countries that adopted bullpups do not have the gun rights and gun culture to sustain and maintain a secondary market like US does with the AR-15, which it self only really started getting steam after 2004.
>>62117307>expense>accessoriesIrrelevant because it relates to market forces not gun design>shit triggersSo do conventionals but that doesn't stop anyone.
>>62118582Every one of these are being dropped with Israel being the holdoutSee >>62117464
>>62117464>UK>Ditching bullpup for an as yet undecided AR carbineThey selected the KAC after it won the UK trials. I just dont know the barrel length.I believe its 13.7" But thats for their special forces
>>62117667Off the top of my headK and M M17sDeserttech MDR and variantsKek-Tek RDBTavor with trigger pack
>>62118714>Institutional inertiaThat would mean adopting a bullpup again due to inertia.Going from bullpup back to conventional is a radical change, especially in a country without a big shooting culture.
>>62118729But they have the power to request a future rifle to be a bullpup. Or even request a conversion kit that allows greater customization options. So the secondary market doesn't matter since governments are in the position to just ask for what they need.Since they don't have a strong gun culture, service members are not used to the AR platform and its modularity so as long as they can interface with modern attachments they won't feel like they're losing much to the AR.Any mention of the SA80 online often gets the British former MIL dudes say it's not a bad rifle or that it's even quite good - because they never shot anything else.
>>62119027>Any mention of the SA80 online often gets the British former MIL dudes say it's not a bad rifle or that it's even quite good - because they never shot anything else.this
>>62118997True, but it could also be someone else's inertia, which is why I mentioned standardization. Countries with the same or similar arms means they can easily supply each other, train each other, use each other's guns, etc. But that says nothing about whether the gun itself is good or bad. Either the gun is the acme of arms... or the lowest common denominator
>>62119325There was footage of Ukrainian soldiers being trained in the UK with SA80s and using their belt and suspenders kit, which is different from AK and plate carrier. The specifics of weapon manipulation are not as important as other aspects of soldiering.You can't mix and match HK, LMT and KAC parts. So them all being ARs doesn't mean countries can supply each other. And not all conventional rifles are ARs, as we also have SCARs and BRENs, etc.
>>62117277Most the complaints I see about bullpups are from people who are too special forces brained or look at service rifles in isolation instead of as a package that fits into a doctrine. At the end of the day, regular members of an army should be capable of engaging threats at all distances, in all terrains, in all conditions, nobody gives a fuck about muh trigger pull or other personal preference items in real conditions, esp when the rifle is meant to be a one sized fits all solution for everybody in your force, so why not have a rifle capable of being compact while having the barrel length to really squeeze the best performance out of the round?It's the reason why I think for Australia at least, the EF88 is the best option. Australia has large open terrain but we'll also likely find ourselves intervening in surrounding countries full of rainforests and urban jungles. >>62118749No
Bullpup haters are legit braindamaged
>>62117464You forgot the part where literally every country in the world tries to copy US in everything even if it's objectively bad.
>>62120019>NoOk, well, ignore reality all you want but these guns are a dying breed. All the biggest users are ditching them and the biggest procurer of military shit on the planet doesn't want them
>>62117593Wood does not belong on a rifle.
>>62119027god damn i love the look of the f90. one of the biggest shameful displays that they cucked out on importing them to the US.
>>62117277not good in close combat when reloading quickly matters. bullpup configuration is more suited to sniper rifles, magazine fed grenade launchers, and squad automatic weapons.
>>62119441He's a shill trying to shill an argument not to genuinely learn, anon.
>camo paint?>nah jst shoot this bullpup here m8
>>62117277Most are going about the idea all wrong. The 6" OAL reduction isn't really worth it until you get into REALLY small guns. P90 is (conceptually) a great example. 20" OAL is so short that it's nearly at the limit of how close you can keep the muzzle to the shooter while shouldered. That with the full-auto optimized design gives it exactly one purpose; fighting in very close proximity. It arguably has the best features for this purpose in the firearms world.The concept fails because knocking a service rifle down 6" is rarely worth it when you get into ~32" territory. Conventional designs are just more mechanically sound, especially in the realm of the AR-15, which is an engineering marvel.If it wasn't for the NFA, super short carbines in the realm of the P90 would probably be everywhere as HD weapons and LARP truck guns. As it stands, most attempts seem to be stuck in ATF approval Limbo (see pic) to be considered pistols and skirt NFA requirements. That tax stamp instantly makes shit a lot less desirable.
>>62124726>The 6" OAL reduction isn't really worth it until you get into REALLY small guns.This is completely backwards. The absolute best thing about bullpups is that you get rifle length ballistics in a carbine size package.Everything else is larp and bullshit.
>>62122028This must be a chatbot response. Nobody else would be so stupid as to list exactly the things where bullpup would have absolutely no advantages and in fact only have downsides holy shit
>>62117277Changes to propellant formulation meant that you could get similar performance out of a shorter barrel, making bullpups redundant.
>>62124806The ballistics just aren't enough of an improvement. We're talking a 10% increase in muzzle velocity max, which would take your effective range from all of 500 yards to less than 550. The small difference in terminal ballistics isn't going to even be considered.
>>62124844You can't make an SPR/DMR out of a 9"-10" barrel
>>62124844Enjoy increased wear on the parts + increased recoil.
>>62117922The cold war is over and we've spend the last 20 years policing third worlders in dusty shitholes.See also: chest rigs, retarded tiny barrels, air support on demand being the solution to everything. Addendum: the Ukraine demonstrating that rejigging your entire doctrine around these things is really fucking dumb.
>>62117641>a plan to find a replacement for the sa80 series of rifles in british serviceWith something, in 10 years or so, when they're clapped out. ARs could be dead by then, it's an old design. Bullpups might be back in fashion.
>>62124844Making your rifle 8" shorter is never going to be redundant.
>>62117475They still use the r4
>>62117277I don't know a whole lot about bullpup guns. Why is it certain people have such hatred for them?
>>62117658VVVNUF VVHAT COVLD HAVE BEEN
>>62124860>The ballistics just aren't enough of an improvement. We're talking a 10% increase in muzzle velocity maxIt's 7-8% muzzle velocity difference to go from 20" to 14". This is actually the main reason bullpups are a meme. They aren't a significant ballistic improvement over short barreled conventional rifles.
>>62126552>They aren't a significant ballistic improvement over short barreled conventional riflesThat is, until you have a 10" barrel bullpup. You'll have to go down to pistol length barrels in a conventional layout to match it, which is over 25% velocity loss, and your rifle is now weaker than 9mm +p+ out of a Glock.
>>62126598>You'll have to go down to pistol length barrels in a conventional layout to match itSnub nose barrels. You basically have a flashbang at that point, there's literally no space for a gas system.Then again the whole fad for ultra high pressure fast powder meme ammo is due to "needing" a short barrel, there's nothing inherently good about it.
Even familiarity and emotional connection is a factor in continued use of the AR and traditional rifles, not everything needs to be completely revamped for insufficient reasons. Some things are just sufficient as they are, though the analytical mind constantly seeks to optimize/improve.
>>62117677I have an RBD, it does have a decent trigger. But it is picky with mags, and you have to flip the gun upside down to view the chamber so it's not a super practical rifle. Benefit is though you get to do the G3 slap to chamber a round which is fun.
>>62117277because they are gay
>>62117307Lemme guess you have a PSA with less than 500 rounds through it, eh? t. AUG main with 7k. Arid and Ratworx made my trigger is better than yours. VNR
>>62117277They are mainstream. You can see countless pictures and videos of Tavors and bullpupped AK-74s being used in the Ukraine war. Turns out having a 16" barrel in the same size as an 8" AR-15 has real life advantages in real life conflicts.
