Thread for recent German military things. That means mostly new guns and SOF gear, plus developments from KSK-Symposium Rüstung and maybe RÜnet. The KSK Symposium is like the US-run SOF Week, but closed to the public.
>>62508652Multitarn looks like fudd hunting camo and i hate it.
>>62508676Real Fuds dont use Camo.
>>62508652I’d like to put my Bundeswehr up the left bank of her Rhine, if you are correcting my oversteer
>>62508699I don’t get it.
>>62508729better?
>>62508726>catch my drift vyyoo
>>62508737holy shit i hate this
Germany has been doing a lot of joint tests and drills of small arms recently. Here are two of those joint tests.1. First look at HK416 A8 (G95A1) in action, via testing at the US Army Tropic Regions Test Center.>Yuma Proving Ground released photos of German personnel with G95-series rifles at the site in Panama yesterday. The Germans also brought Accuracy International G22A2 and C.G. Haenel G29 sniper rifles and Heckler & Koch 5.56x45mm MG4 and 7.62x51mm MG5 machine guns, as well as new night vision goggles. Additional German small arms testing was carried out at YPG proper in Arizona.https://www.army.mil/article/279617https://archive.is/DyE3g [twz](now with pics that don't look crazy)
>>62508776
>>62508780
2. Opposite Day with the British.https://forcesnews.com/services/army/all-change-its-sa80-v-g36-british-and-german-troops-swap-small-arms
Continuing after that fuckfest...The Bundeswehr contract for MR308A6 was confirmed: 500 of the rifles will be ordered for a 2025 Special Forces contract. It will go by G210.
>>62508800
>>62508803
>>62508809
>>62508652With the '100bil dollars' the German military was going to be getting 2 years ago, has that started filtering down to a noticeable effect yet or am I just a naive foreign cunt?
>>62508838Depressingly it's a pile of bullshit and the entire "OMG Zeitenwende!!!!" thing ended up being mostly a crock the instant any actual serious budget choices were faced. German politicians have a litany of excuses but a lot of it fundamentally goes right back to German voters, who enjoy having super fat social welfare and don't want a single euro less to support defense. They just truly don't see it as their problem and truly think others will take care of everything and die for them.>Days after Russian President Vladimir Putin’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz promised a “Zeitenwende,” or turning point. He pledged Berlin would raise military spending above 2% of GDP, and unveiled a special €100 billion off-budget investment fund for rearmament. Military experts welcomed the move, but warned the 2% threshold wasn’t enough to strengthen the military quickly given Germany’s chronic underspending.>Two years later, however, Germany’s underlying defense budget sits at 1.3% of GDP, and overall military spending is only meeting the 2% threshold thanks to the off-budget investment fund. When that runs out in 2028, Germany will have to hike its underlying defense budget by 60% that year to keep it above 2%—which analysts say is unlikely. >Not including the special fund, the share of the underlying defense budget that goes into procuring new weapons and ammunition has fallen from €10 billion in 2022 to €3 billion this year, according to Hans-Peter Bartels, president of the German Society for Security Policy, an armed forces lobby organization. The rest goes mainly to personnel, maintenance, training and building costs. >“The Zeitenwende has failed,” said Benjamin Tallis, a senior fellow at the German Council on Foreign Relations, calling the effort to rearm Germany “too little, too slow, too uncertain.”
>>62508738In English doc?
>>62508864>Meanwhile, military projects have faced local opposition. Last summer, not far from Görlitz, hundreds of protesters and local politicians from the far right and far left protested close to a disused air base where Manfred von Richthofen, the World War I flying ace known as the Red Baron, once trained.>>The protesters wanted to block the country’s leading arms manufacturer, Rheinmetall, from building a new ammunition factory on the site that would supply Ukraine and restock German stockpiles. Many feared the factory could become a target of Russia. Within weeks, the company said it would add capacity to an existing plant in Bavaria instead. >>North of the city lies one of the largest military training grounds in Germany. Görlitz Mayor Octavian Ursu would like to expand the facility, but local politicians are opposing the move.>>“Residents complain that too much is being done for Ukraine,” Ursu said.And that's how the modern kraut is. Eastern Europe on the front lines shouldn't expect anything much, won't be zero, but there's going to be no big backstop like during the CW.
>>62508814>That height over bore>Still uses a non folding stockWhat the FUCK Germany?
>>62508838OP speaks kraut but ain't one. Germoids might know better. That being said, like the reply that came thru just now suggests, it hasn't all been smooth sailing. As of December 2023, the government announced that 1/3 of the special fund had been earmarked. I think there was another spike during/after Eurosatory but I don't have current tables.Here's start of year toplinehttps://euro-sd.com/2024/01/articles/35987/the-bundeswehr-special-fund-17-months-later/
habits are really hard to break and once people get used to their gibs they hate giving them up. also same as most advanced countries germany is run by old fossils who get huge resources into them and know they will shuffle off and fucking die before any bills come due or any real security threats can happen.sorry poles that germany expects you to take it up the ass yet again
>Flood of anti-German posts and threads after the AFD's victoryHmmm
>>62508864>>62508894Well shit.I was really hanging out thinking even with German shitfuckery when it comes to military spending that at least 'some' stuff might have rattled down the chute and ended up in the hands of the boys. To some extent I was never going to expect it to happen overnight as the article explains but anyone who does't have a rock hard cock for 100billion worth of gear, training and vehicles is beyond sick.>However, the conclusion of contracts and the contractual commitment of budget funds do not lead to an immediate outflow of funds, nor an immediate inflow of equipment. It can take several years for the first weapon systems to be delivered, particularly in the case of large-scale projects. Expenditure of EUR 8.4 billion from the special fund is planned for 2023, although at the time of writing it is unclear how much of this has actually been spent. In recent years, it has been repeatedly shown that investment funds for armaments have not been fully used despite dwindling resources.Damn it Hans, just do what I do when I have moneyDon't tell the wife, spend it on the cool shit and deny you had any money in the first place!
KSK Symposium: new Pandur Evo variant>GDELS presented a new variant of the Pandur Evolution for special forces operations for the first time as part of the accompanying exhibition to this year's 9th KSK Armament Symposium. The basis of the "Special Forces Pandur" is a modified 6×6 platform of the Pandur Evolution, which was exhibited in the variant shown with a RCWS including a 30mm machine cannon, an anti-drone net and several canisters for transporting and firing Switchblade 300 Block 20 loitering ammunition.
>>62508932
>>62508919Nobody fucking cares about the populists winning in the uneducated and underdeveloped East.Thuringia and Saxony are both absolute shitholes, the equivalent of Appalachia and rural Alabama.>>62508652The German military has a recruitment crisis because the military is just not an attractive enough employer in a developed nation, that and the whole 1970s-1990s educated boomers that are currently forming the elite are absolutely disgusting kneejerk peaceniks. You are seeing that in terms of policy, immigration, defense etc.
>>62508919>just stating facts is anti-German>nooo conspiracy against AFD (who are literally and openly pro russian and anti-military)Why are you people like this and why are you on /k/? Of course this board isn't going to be in favor of that stance anyway overall, but whether you are in support of Germany rearming in a serious way or not that doesn't change the fact they aren't and are stupendously hollowed out from decades and decades of "peace dividend" underspending. It is what it is. And it's not even a left/right thing, because the German far left (like the BSW who did quite well too even if they aren't yet the more globally known name the AFD is) is on the same page as the far right.Not like Germany is unique either, some of the same forces are at play in every western country that isn't directly on the front lines. In Germany though due to history and politics it's more entrenched then most is all.
>>62508876>GörlitzOssies
>>62508942>Nobody fucking cares about the populists winning in the uneducated and underdeveloped East.I mean, people do, though to some extent just as a useful tool to reinforce what they want to do anyway. Like, Lindner did want to freeze social spending for a few years, let it lag inflation a bit, and use that to help boost the military a little. But both other parties in the coalition didn't want to at all. Habeck in particular, and then he flat out used the AfD as an excuse, "Germany not only faces an external threat from Russia, but an internal threat from people getting disillusioned with democracy. Social spending is necessary to keep the country together."See, we can't spend money on the ebil military because the REAL risk is upset boomers so gotta keep the money flowing my friends.
RÜnet: Donaustahl MausThe mouse made an appearance, this time with a new payload.
>>62508974>"Germany not only faces an external threat from Russia, but an internal threat from people getting disillusioned with democracy. Social spending is necessary to keep the country together."Lol, I like how it's an admission they need to spend money on the military to keep the citizenry down because their getting fed up of their shitty governance.
>>62508980
>>62508983No it's literally the opposite you absolute fucking retard. He's saying to not spend anything more on the military at all if it'd take anything away from social spending. And they aren't.
>>62508990Oh, my bad...
>>62508990If you're going to talk about AfD of all things in the thread, the least you could do is explain to anon what "social spending" means. If he's unfamiliar with that, of course he's gonna misunderstand the excerpt. Anyway.KSK Symposium: ACS CaracalACS Armoured Car Systems GmbH (ACS), based in Friedberg, Bavaria, a specialist in protected mobility vehicles for special forces, inaugurated a new production hall on September 11, 2024. The new production space can accommodate a production rate of 300 to 600 Caracal vehicles per year – the higher figure with greater lead time and increased shifts.In July 2023, the Bundeswehr Procurement Office BAAINBw concluded a framework agreement for the manufacture and delivery of up to 3058 vehicles for the German and Dutch armed forces. In the first phase, 1508 vehicles – 1004 for Germany and 504 for the Netherlands – have been ordered from the framework agreement.
>>62508932>>62508937Oh look another boomer tin can that will get deleted by a $50 FPV droneHere's a tip: when your top armor is 10mm thick don't put explosive ammo inside the vehicle>>62508980This looks cool. I bet it costs $10k for what Ukrainians do with $50
>>62508942>The German military has a recruitment crisis because the military is just not an attractive enough employer in a developed nationThey have actually been stepping up their efforts, they recently came to the school I teach at as part of a job fair and basically said they will pay for you to go to university (tuition, rent, groceries etc, it's an allowance of 1200€ per month) in exchange for working in the Bundeswehr for at least 8 years. From what I've seen you would, in mechanical engineering for example, do your bachelor at a normal university and than your masters at the Bundeswehr uni in Munich, and than work for the army in an engineering capacity for 8 years..of course with an option to go longer if you want to. From what I've seen there was a lot of interest, it was one of the most popular areas of the job fair
>>62509022Don't worry I'm not going to, just was answering earlier anons question about whether the revolution was actually happening. I'm not even particular mad so much as bummed/resigned, as I've gotten older I've come to better appreciate the sheer inertia of habits and self interest. It's very hard to get most people to take a longer term view and ask for any kind of care for the greater world these days.
KSK Symposium: ACS presents Enok MBB and levelable mast systemACS Armoured Car Systems GmbH presented its new Enok MBB platform and a levelable mast system at this year's KSK Symposium. The Enok MBB – MBB stands for Modular Box Body – is basically an extended version of the company's own lightweight 4×4 platform Enok AB, based on the militarized Mercedes-Benz G platform (G-464), with an extended wheelbase. 3650 mm compared to 2850 mm for the regular length. https://archive.is/Qn25tRelated:Enok AB in Cyprushttps://desuarchive.org/k/thread/62380203
>>62509060Drone Defense EnokThe vehicle shown at the KSK Symposium serves as the basis for a "Drone Defense Enok", which the company says will soon be used by an unspecified European customer country. The rear, closed cabin offers space for two soldiers, the control consoles for the drone defense system and plenty of storage space for material and ammunition. A modular drone defense system from EOS / Diehl Defence, which was presented for the first time at Enforce TAC 2024, is used as the effector.
>>62508974>>62508990It is simply a tragic thing that the only right wing party in germany has fallen to russian influence. Every upright german patriot should hate russia (and from what I've heard, even some AfD voters do) but the party is being paid by russia and parroting their propaganda. There is no german party for reasonable right wing voters.
>>62508737>>62508776Is it normal M-lok or some proprietary shit like the Hgay keymod knockoff?
>>62509065Mast systemAs a further innovation, the company has presented the so-called ACS mast system to the public for the first time. This is a telescopic mast with a length of 4m. In the displayed configuration, a sensor height of up to 5m can be attained. Depending on requirements, the mast can be integrated at multiple vehicle locations or operated as standalone tripod. It is self-levelling.
>>62509067I hope it's proprietary. Fuck ITAR.
>>62509066yeah it sucks, but at the core it's the fault of the center parties for being retarded. sounds familiar?
>>62509067The weird one is HKey. You can see it on HK rifles operated by US tacticools as well.>or some proprietary shitM-LOK is proprietary.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-LOK#Licensing
>>62509039I hope they do, but the university benefits only help hiring higher ups, creating an even larger Wasserkopf. The BW needs people to drive their vehicles, maintain them and hold the rifles. I am not German myself, but I was a shithead in high school and joined the military for social mobility and it helped me get a well paid position in the public sector without having a degree.Why would you join the military, where you have to be stationed away from home, get dirty in mud, do a lot of exercise (Playstation generation doesn't like running and marching, only lifting for the PUMP) if you get better pay making sandwiches at Subway? With better benefits and more comfort?
>>62509091>M-LOK is proprietary.Though worth noting only for another 3 years since dev started in 2007. Not ideal but just waiting it out at this point is pretty low effort.
>>62508980Donaustahl is such a retarded company name.
>>62509481They used to make gun parts and accessories but than switched to drones when the Ukraine war popped off. They are one of the only european drone companies that make their own chips and semiconductors instead of just importing from chinks so they are good in my book
>>62509974>make their own chips and semiconductorsDoubtA company that produces pistol conversion stocks doesn't just start designing semiconductors (let alone produce them lol). Post source for this extraordinary claim.
>>62508838Things are going about as one would expect.A couple big chances, a lot of big changes that ended up being smaller ones for various reasons.Modern procurement in a nutshell.
>>62508864>>62508876 Anon, I say this with all the love I can muster, but you need to stop being such a gigantic, negative self-hating pussy or kill yourself immediately.
>>62508927>I was really hanging out thinking even with German shitfuckery when it comes to military spending that at least 'some' stuff might have rattled down the chute and ended up in the hands of the boys.That's the case, anon just requires castration for the good of humanity.
>>62508942>Thuringia and Saxony are both absolute shitholes, the equivalent of Appalachia and rural Alabama.That makes it sound like you've been to none of those places. Both the social and economic dynamics are completely different.You sound like a gay hippie filled with hatred because these places are still white and contrary to what you think, actually kinda comfy, even if I wouldn't leave my home for either.
>>62508950NTA but:>>nooo conspiracy against AFD (who are literally and openly pro russian and anti-military)Neither is true and you should kill yourself. > And it's not even a left/right thing, because the German far left (like the BSW who did quite well too even if they aren't yet the more globally known name the AFD is) is on the same page as the far right.The BSW made a 180 turn immediately after the recent elections.You genuinely sound like a retarded boomer who gets all his info from state propaganda.
>>62510040Anon, literally what the fuck are you talking about.
>>62509481I think the parallel to Rheinmetall is pretty funny.
>>62510069You genuinely sound like a retarded zoomie who is desperate for change and unhappy with the centrist blob and thus coping hardcore that the alternatives are shit in their own ways leaving a turd or a shit sandwich as the choices.
>>62510040>>62510069if you guys are claiming that actually germany is totally going to take on debt, raise money, or make social cuts to pay for a serious rebuilding of military capability, real military capability not just paper, well will unironically be looking forward to seeing the results. but not seeing any sign of it yet.
>>62509066>>62509075see >>62510069When whatsapp leaks of high AfD officials calling a politician who laid down a wreath at a russian monument a traitor to our people and the recent Russian invasion the "mongol storm" it was in the news for about 2 days before the mainstream media realized that that's not the story they'd wanna push.>>62510090I'm in my 30s you retarded nigger.You're the one going>oh the state media tells me party X likes Y so I guess I'll vote for the parties that will replace my children with shitskinsRealize that even if everything you believe to be true would be true none of it would matter because in the end immigration is the ONLY important topic in the long run.>>62510109Don't get your hopes up, it's just not as bad as the depressed pussy pretends it is.
>>62510071I'm saying that your entire mindset betrays you as a person unworthy of life and needs to be changed for your own good and that of everybody around you.
>>62510111>I'm in my 30sAnd I'm in my early 40s. BFD.>You're the one goingNo, I'm not anon. That's a strawman you pulled out of your triggered ass. I didn't say anything about how I was voting, or that I was pro immigration or any similar shit.>because in the end immigration is the ONLY important topic in the long runSo you're not actually disagreeing with me in the slightest. You're flat out stating this is more important then remilitarization, fighting Russia etc. Your call but I'm not sure I agree, or I guess more accurately I don't think that should be a dichotomy at all in the first place. I want both. It is disappointing there isn't a clear champion for both, but not surprising because I don't think there is public appetite for it either overall.But none of that changes the fact that right now the trajectory of Zeitenwende is straight back into the ground. The right and left both favor more domestic social spending instead, with the right also more massively caring about shit immigrants fucking things up, as you demonstrate.
>>62510125lol eat shit zigger loving filth.
>>62510156>And I'm in my early 40sI didn't fucking ask and don't care, boomer.>No, I'm not anon. That's a strawman you pulled out of your triggered ass. I didn't say anything about how I was voting, or that I was pro immigration or any similar shit.Great, so keep whining but vote AfD, if you don't, nothing you say fucking matters because you're too retarded to work within the democratic system we have.>So you're not actually disagreeing with me in the slightest. I corrected your lies at several points, if I don't disagree with you, does that mean you admit to lying?>You're flat out stating this is more important then remilitarization, fighting Russia etcAbsolutely. Nothing matters more than the survival of your people. Literally nothing.>Your call but I'm not sure I agree, or I guess more accurately I don't think that should be a dichotomy at all in the first place. I want both. It is disappointing there isn't a clear champion for both, but not surprising because I don't think there is public appetite for it either overall.I think you vastly overestimate how "pro-russia" the AfD is. Some local politicians are weird, but the overall leadership and everybody truly important is more pro-Germany than anything else, the Meuthen heirs aside, but those are the kind of transatlanticists you should like.>the trajectory of Zeitenwende is straight back into the ground. The right and left both favor more domestic social spending instead, with the right also more massively caring about shit immigrants fucking things up, as you demonstrate.You need to stop being such a depressed bitch. If you ever expected great, immediate change you're retarded, but small changes are on the way and will NOT stop and the leftist coalition will not survive the next election.>>62510163I'm not a tourist so I enjoy the war for what it is and don't care about slav tribalism. I'd nuke both countries for the good of my own without hesitation.You need to man the fuck up already, anon.
>>62510156>And I'm in my early 40s.Every guy around this age I know has your mindset. It's this weird generation that has access to modern media and knows how to use them but is somehow still enthralled by the media complex and would feel bad for playing the Germans in the bolt action tabletop game (actual example) despite being way more redpilled than one would expect and aware of the dangers of the foreign hordes.It's this weird defeatist attitude mixed with strong remnants of regime propaganda you just can't beat out of them. Maybe it's due to being the last generation to be without the internet during their puberty.
Here's a head fuck for you
>>62510252British gun?
>>62510195>I didn't fucking ask and don't care, boomer.lol so you're actually 17 huh zoomie zoom? Thanks for letting me just throw away the rest of your mindless trash opinion. Come back when you graduate school and get a job.>>62510240>defeatistLiterally nothing I wrote is defeatist. It's just the current reality. It doesn't mean it can't change by any means, but it also means nobody can just think "oh job done they devoted '100 million' military is all set now!" I will never understand why some people think recognizing how things are means somehow you're fine with that. Maybe that is a generational divide, and your gen feels like reality denial is the foundation of reality change. I'll admit it frustrates the hell out of me though because my observation is it just leads to slacktivism. Young people spend lots of energy on big protests or whatever, without the actual recognition and organization of how to translate that into real power, and then when eventually nothing comes of it they get angry. Effort is required, but isn't enough by itself.Whatever though, I'm happy to celebrate any cool kit Germany does at least. If nothing else developing military production for export should be very doable, though the successful protests against Rheinmetal expansion in-country are too bad as well.
>>62510260Yeah some joint training thing they did recently
>>62510289
>>62510283>lol so you're actually 17 huh zoomie zoom? Thanks for letting me just throw away the rest of your mindless trash opinion. Come back when you graduate school and get a job.I'm still over 30, but seeing how sensitive you are and that you're unable to defend your shit opinion of accepting national suicide because you're not perfectly happy with a party, I'll accept your surrender.PS: I've been here longer than you.
>>62508800>>62508803>>62508809>>62508814>20 MOAwoah!
>>62510311>PS: I've been here longer than you.Since 2006? Well, "congratulations" I guess, to the extent being on 4chan forever is an accomplishment worth bragging about.
>>62508942>shitholes>Appalachiayou sure talk tough sitting behind a keyboard, coastal elite anon.
>>62508980>>62508984Looks like some kind of futuristic high tech dildo
>>62510397>Since 2006?I started when Icefrog took over Dota's development, late 2005/early 2006, so yes, I am your superior in all regards, even this.
>>62510111>When whatsapp leaks of high AfD officials calling a politician who laid down a wreath at a russian monument a traitor to our people and the recent Russian invasion the "mongol storm" it was in the news for about 2 days before the mainstream media realized that that's not the story they'd wanna push.Of course not. Worst case, AfD might realize that cucking to russia lowers their voters potential. But that hasn't happened yet. Or maybe they just prefer that sweet russian cash over saving germany.
>>62510283>Literally nothing I wrote is defeatist.Literally your entire attitude is defeatist and caught up in shitty state propaganda, which you don't even realize. It's genuinely disgusting to read and the only saving grace is that you don't mean to be that way and just can't help yourself.Thank God you at least don't browse reddit. I hope.
>>62510480Anon, you're fucking retarded.Wanting a diverse energy market isn't "cucking to Russia." Including cheap Russian gas makes every other source cheaper as well. Right now we're so fucking we're spending 20 BILLION on electricity subsidies every fucking year just to keep it affordable and we still have the highest electricity prices in the world (except for Belgium sometimes).German interests matter, whether Russia likes that shouldn't even be part of your calculus because spite shouldn't drive any policy, retard.
>>62510482Well, I feel the exact same about your attitude anon. I think you're defeatist, and I think you're caught up in shitty propaganda, which you don't even realize. Not just repeating words back to you, you're describing how I think you are, and my disgust at reading it. I don't expect that to change your opinion at all, just know that there are people who very genuinely believe in military power and Western cultural superiority and more traditional values who think everything you wrote there is a description of yourself. Dunno what you should do with that, but there it is.Guess we'll see what happens. I think it just takes a lot of work and a very long time the change the course of a big ship, particularly when there's no iceburg right there in plain sight off the bow.
>>62510501AfD doesn't just want to buy russian gas, they also want to stop aid to ukraine, probably leaving them to be conquered by russia. They're cucking to ziggers, simple as.
>>62510480>Or maybe they just prefer that sweet russian cash over saving germany.Anon, you're blindly repeating unfounded garbage by the green-loving media.Reminder that no party has received more money from Russia than the Greens and their NGO rat-tail in the Russian effort to get out of nuclear energy to create greater demand for their gas.Have you ever heard of that? No? Ask yourself why and stop being a fucking system drone of people who want you dead, your children raped and think it's funny.
>>62510524Literally nothing I've written that wasn't about your attitude was negative, let alone defeatist. Are you drunk?
>>62510525Anon, stop being a retarded tourist.AfD wants peace because peace is good for Germany. We've funded a war for years just to get a worse result for Ukraine than Ukraine would've gotten if they would've accepted the peace deal worked out in Turkey they wanted to accept at the start of the war.What the fuck bothers you about the peace deal they worked out in Istanbul? Russia would've gotten the 2 "independent" republics they had occupied for years anyway. Now we spent a couple trillion on a war with hundreds of thousands of people dead just to get the same result at best.
>>62510524>the CDU boomer hurts itself in its confusionMany such cases!
>>62510535You'd think that wouldn't you? I hope you learn to start trying to get beyond your own mind eventually anon as you get older.>>62510547ok zoomie zoom
>>62510550>waaahh waaahhh there is no good option to vote for ;((((>waaah waaah I'll let my people die and vote CDU, that'll show those evil AfD guys!Hope you enjoy the refugee center next to your daughter's school for those millions of Africans your party of choice wants to import, anon.
>>62510550>You'd think that wouldn't you? I hope you learn to start trying to get beyond your own mind eventually anon as you get older.I guess I was wrong, you are just a smug 40+ redditor and you'll never be able to get out of your slave-mindset.>>62510569He has no children.
>>62510569>if I sperg out and invent strawman to knock down, I win!Well, guess we'll see how that approach goes alright?
>>62510578>unironically uses "slave-mindset">muh eternal leddit boogieman>nooooo /k/ is supposed to be my safespace hug box like /pol/ ;_;The trifecta. Whew.
>>62510583When I asked you directly if you'd vote for the AfD you sperged out, called me a zoomer and surrendered.Go buy an eastern european wife, maybe having kids will make you realize that there are more important things in life than what the Bild frontpage tells you.
>>62510591You:1. Refuse to vote the only party willing to stop the invasion of your country because it gives you bad feefees in your tummy based on mainstream media coverage.2. Post like a smug redditor and refuse to engage even in friendly corrections of your blind axioms.3. Start screeching about /pol/ unprompted when somebody disagrees with you.Anon, you're the kind of guy who hands in his guns during a buyback and posts on facebook about voting Kamala because she doesn't do locker room talk.What the fuck are you doing on /k/? lmao
>>62510608>>62510597>>62510591Is he the guy who compared East Germany to Appalachia and rural Alabama?Because he really does sound like a coastal cunt looking down on normal people.
>>62510526>>62510540Nice job anons. One of you denying that AfD is cucking to russia (or something like "but the greens are bad toooo"... yeah true, but they're also delivering arms to ukraine) and the other is all out for it.>a worse result for Ukraine than Ukraine would've gotten if they would've accepted the peace deal worked out in TurkeyImagine trusting ziggers. I bet you're the same kind of guy who would have fallen for the stalin note.
>>62510597>When I asked you directly if you'd vote for the AfDYou didn't, in fact, actually do this anon. I mean, first sentence and you've already invented this entire head canon. I see now that you TOLD me to vote for the AfD after sperging out with insults. You're the one who brought up both boomer then your age when you got the natural reply back, then sperged out when I replied to your age with mine. I stopped reading after that. But even re-reading >>62510195 now, no anon, you didn't ASK me anything.>Great, so keep whining but vote AfD, if you don't, nothing you say fucking matters because you're too retarded to work within the democratic system we have.This isn't "hey anon, so who do you plan to vote for?"Like I said, your grasp on reality seems questionable, and your emotions fragile. Not really interested in anything else you have to say for that reason.
>>62510617>Nice job anons. One of you denying that AfD is cucking to russia (or something like "but the greens are bad toooo"... yeah true, but they're also delivering arms to ukraine) and the other is all out for it.The AfD leadership generally wants what's best for Germany, the Meuthen crew who inherited his spirit are an exception but since they're translatlanticists you should love them.Not being rabidly anti-Russian isn't cucking to Russia. I don't care if something is pro or anti-russia, I care about my people. The fact that you only see things through the lens of what benefits another nation makes you an unpatriotic traitor.>Imagine trusting ziggers.I genuinely don't give a fuck about either side, I care about what's good for my country.Why don't you?>>62510626>You didn't, in fact, actually do this anon.How would you know? You said you stopped reading before you got here you lying cunt >>62510195>Great, so keep whining but vote AfD,>You're the one who brought up both boomer then your age when you got the natural reply back,So the natural reply to being called a boomer in your mind is to stop reading the post and crying like a bitch? >then sperged out when I replied to your age with mine. Telling you I don't care (I don't) is not sperging out. Why do you insist on using terminology you clearly do not understand?>But even re-reading >>62510195 (You) now, no anon, you didn't ASK me anything.The question was implied you bad faith cunt, lmao.You could've either answered by saying yes you will or no you won't. No other answer would've made sense there.>This isn't "hey anon, so who do you plan to vote for?"It doesn't need to be, autismo. I'm starting to see why you have no wife at your age.>your grasp on reality seems questionable, and your emotions fragile. Anon, you shat your pants and started crying because of a single word.Are you that sensitive about your age? Are your parents disappointed because they'll never have grandchildren?
>>62508942t. dumb "metropolitian" fifth-columnist who wishes Germany/England/Poland looked like Eastern London.
>>62510617>yeah true, but they're also delivering arms to ukraine>"greens who flood the country with africans are better because they deliver arms to ukraine"Why do you sacrifice the future of your people on the altar of the regularly scheduled slavic genocide?That shit happens every 20-30 years, get a grip, anon. I can understand wanting to help them for moral reasons, but your people should come first and the only party even pretending to want to end mass migration is the AfD. Even the lesbian from the moderate wing has repeatedly called for a 5 year moratorium on all immigration now.
Love watching AfD voters try to rationalize their knee-jerk political party that's only gaining headway because all the other parties refuse to acknowledge that immigration has screwed over Germany. Keep it up with the TikToks that offer absolutely zero practical solutions for the nation guise!
>>62510690>zero practical solutionsThere is nothing more practical than deporting millions of dark people for the recovery of your nation.
>>62510704Ah, yes, like how Republicans say they're going to send all the illegals back over the border and then seal it only if they get into power... give me a goddamn break. The feasibility of deporting millions of people is null.
>>62510644>I care about what's good for my country.Going against all of NATO on the issue of russia is not good for germany. It would leave us isolated and antagonized within the EU and NATO, with diminuished influence on our primary economic partners. It doesn't even matter whether ukraine as part of the russian empire and russia as a trading partner would be better in the end (ignoring issues like russia potentially attacking the baltics) because that's not for germany alone to decide. We're part of an alliance and the alliance has decided to push back against russia.But I don't think that this scenario would in fact be better either (I will not entertain your idea of a peace treaty that leaves ukraine intact somehow. That one is a russian lie). It would mean autocrats all over the world feel empowered attacking and annexing neighbouring states. Especially if they have nukes. Which will lead to states all over the world acquiring nukes, risking nuclear war with unforeseeable consequences.For the record, I still vote AfD. They have no influence on our foreign policy, yet are already silently influencing immigration policy merely by getting votes. But I would feel better about it if they just took the mainstream stance about russia. That's not a hard thing to do.
>>62510713> like how Republicanskek>The feasibility of deporting millions of people is null.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback>>62510715>blablablaLiterally nothing is as important as remigrating the foreign hordes, anon.NOTHING.
>>62510722lmao you're literally a zigger cock sucking convenient idiotoryou're a flat out zigger plant
>>62510750Okay, tourist.Why don't you go to one of those Ukraine threads and circlejerk about russkis getting droned there while you let the adults handle the rest?
>>62510252Thanks, this looks like more from the same event in >>62508789.
►KSK Symposium: PistolsThe Walther PDP-based P14 pistol family situation is a bit hard to understand. I will post all the information I have at hand.>9th KSK Armament Symposium: Carl Walther shows complete special forces pistol family P14>At KSK Armaments Symposium, the Carl Walther GmbH publicly exhibited the entire P14 special forces pistol family including additional sets – consisting of a suppressor, reflex sight, compensator, magwell extension and long barrel, among other things – for the first time.https://hartpunkt.de/9-ksk-symposium-ruestung-carl-walther-zeigt-komplette-spezialkraeftepistolenfamilie-p14/
►KSK Symposium: Pistols (continued)Meanwhile, someone on SpecOpsArchive dug up a G39 carbine photo and wrote the following:>Interesting detail to note: the new Pistols wont come with any vis or IR lasers standard issue due to new TTPs adopted by German SOF personnel. This will result in exclusively IR and WL illumination capabilities as standard issue.>"According to the tender, the BAAINBw now wants to procure up to 5,734 SE lighting modules (BelM) to illuminate the apron up to a distance of approx. 40 m in the visual and near infrared range. The BelM must be able to be used with the P14 pistols in 9 mm x 19 caliber without any restrictions on function and with existing system compatibility. It must emit white light and light in the near infrared range. The visual luminous flux must be at least 300 lumens. The IR lighting of the BelM must produce a luminous flux of at least 100 mW, according to the BAAINBw."Dunno where he got that text, but it checks out. https://milmag.pl/hybrydowe-latarki-do-niemieckich-pistoletow-p14/https://ted.europa.eu/en/notice/-/detail/499721-2024So all in all, a pretty odd set of decisions and outstanding requirements here, for a pistol that's already procured.
>>62511018>missing picreeee
>>62511025Good to see 433 variants in use.
>>62510069>The BSW made a 180 turn immediately after the recent elections.Qrd?
>>62511681Went from months of going>we need to change the way we mistreat the AfD>we'll talk to anybody, that's what democracy is>the old parties are all the same and bad>muh foreignersto>AfD should be forbidden>we will never talk with them>we want to rule together with the old parties :)Ironically, at least one of them was known if you're not a complete retard because Wagenknecht's co-leader (a female turk) already said months ago that she's categorically against all deportations.But most people don't even know she exists, which is even funnier if you consider the fact that the only party that barely edges out the BSW when it comes to their voters being concerned with having too many foreigners is the AfD.
>>62511746Classic. Iirc I’ve read that most East German boomers who voted for Linke now vote BSW and the BSW was essentially being formed to take away afd votes in the east. Just another proof that boomers are too retarded and easily tricked by their nostalgia
>>62511872>Classic. Iirc I’ve read that most East German boomers who voted for Linke now vote BSW and the BSW was essentially being formed to take away afd votes in the east.Accurate, but since the BSW revealed itself to be a scam they've gone down in the polls in the next state election in about a week at least.
>>62512013Didn’t they just do state elections?
>>62512020In Saxony and Thuringia. Brandenburg is next.
>>62511018>>62511025Thanks OP. Yeah, pistol situation is weird, but I dunno, that entire area kinda feels weird these days. Like, pistols as a military category have been irrelevant for ages, so hard to avoid the feel that it's all a waste of money and they should just stick with what we've got until something really serious changes in the fundamentals. Still keeps some people busy I guess.
>>62508800I know how a gun looks doesn't matter that much, but dumb they made these things look ugly
>>62511872>was essentially being formed to take away afd votes in the eastSorry but no, it was formed because wagenknecht disagreed with the queers in her own party and saw how dunking on the greens generates easy brownie points with mouthbreathing retards in the polls
>>62512511Nah, Wagenknecht knew all of that for decades. Doing it when she did was a premeditated political move.
>>62512522Nope, the split between her and her party was getting wider and it was an opportune moment to create a party with actually decent policiesToo bad werteunion are a bunch of geriatric morons who couldn’t do the same
What the fuck is going on in this thread?
>>62512548>and it was an opportune moment to create a party with actually decent policiesLmao we have a communist BSW shill on /k/.
>>62512562He called me the evil C word! Oh nyo~Arguably better than (todays) AFD, since their membership policy is supposed to keep retards out rather than invite them
>>62512606>Arguably better than (todays) AFD, since their membership policy is supposed to keep retards out rather than invite them>>62511746>Wagenknecht's co-leader (a female turk) already said months ago that she's categorically against all deportations.>rape 3 little girls and kill them>don't get deported>a party with actually decent policies
>>62512623Week good thing the party isn’t called “Bündnis Wagenknecht's co-leader (a female turk)“ or we would be in real trouble;)
>>62512553>What the fuck is going on in this thread?Poor OP getting his honest effort to just have a thread about new german military equipment stuff completely derailed by politics stuff from a pretty reasonable military related question >>62508838 that then ended up triggering a few people and away it went. Try to just ignore it all and focus on the guns I guess.
>>62512654You stupid fuck, Wagenknecht is aware of her colleagues opinions and the rest of the party isn't better. Did you actually believe the national communist LARP?Did you think the 180° turn after the recent elections just happened randomly? They never intended to change anything, they're just a new flavor of country-wrecking immigrant inviting commies.
>>62512674Doesn’t change the fact that AFD has, on all levels from communes to federal, a horrendous economic and social policy written by a bunch of amateurs that make the greens look like the most stoic heralds of realpolitikseriously take some time in the evening and actually watch the comittees or the sessions of the Landtag, the absolute state of your party is barely funny, actually tragic, it used to be called a party of professors now just bumbling fools not even able to make correct formal inquiries
>>62512814>Doesn’t change the fact that AFD has, on all levels from communes to federal, a horrendous economic and social policy written by a bunch of amateurs that make the greens look like the most stoic heralds of realpolitikWrong AND irrelevant. Getting rid of darkies is all that matters.And hearing a communist who wants to flood the country with Africans talk about economic and social policy is a bit ridiculous, don't you think?
>>62508737>HK416 variant #727374027451>Ugly tan furniture Meh, at least they're keeping flektarn instead of replacing it with multislop.
>>62512850People didn't want the cooler 433 because of >muh standardization
>>62512845Your such a retreaded contrarian it’s not even worth it, I hope you have a great rest of the night seething at your monitor
>>62512975>literal BSW communist calls others contrarian
>>62512861What was even the excuse for replacing the G36 again? Wasn't it something along the lines of false claims being made by scummy politicians over how the G36s barrel melted after firing a certain amount of rounds which easily debunked?
>>62513046Basically, HK won the court case proving the allegations to be largely either nonsense or just a natural consequence of what the government ordered despite the warnings of HK about the resulting limitations.I.e. you can't treat a normal infantry rifle like a machine gun.But at that point the ball was already rolling. Could be worse, the replacement is good.
>>62512673So it goes.
>>62512674Ironic they larp as communists. My father told me when Algerians and afghans were acting up by snipping razor blades to cut open your neck artery in the DDR the Stasi just deported all them due to inner security concerns
>>62508652a 68 old austrian huntress granny just last weekend handed 4 ksk faggots over to the police when they tried to do a training in her forest, shots fired. ksk<an armed granny
Mammoth displayed at KSK symposium from Dutch specialist builder Defenture. 50-80 in 2 main variants, AGF 2 (Medium Special Forces Reconnaissance and Combat Vehicle (Mittleres Aufklärungs- und Gefechtsfahrzeug Spezialkräfte)) and UFK (Medium Tactical Special Forces Support Vehicle (Mittleres taktisches Unterstützungsfahrzeug Kommando Spezialkräfte). 8 will be fitted with Nexter 20mm autocannon. 4 prototypes currently trialled in different climates from Latin America to Arizona and Alaska.
>>62508652Early september release of a new tender for the procurement of 200 light vehicles for the KSK. Max weight 3,2 ton, payload 1,5 tonnes.
>>62511032Fuck me but I like that setup with the compensator.Also, did you get one of those energy drinks?
>>62515401Shot a warning shot, also they were there with Bundesheer guys. Very shitty presentation desu.
>>62510283Being a superficially indifferent retard and using that as a monumentally dumb placeholder for geopolitical and diplomatic considerations isn't manly.It's not even so in the sense of a substantative and self-sustaining identity that is there for its own sake rather than inherently tied to pissy bothsides pretences of a gormless retard trying to mount a bit of quasi-oppositionism at least.I'd bomb airfields, infra, stocklikes and other such targets in russia before Ukraine because that is actually toy geopolitical furtherance and just and right on top of it.
>>62515405>bundesanon is posting from CPM / defence networkAh fuck I'll have to get some coffee and actually return to this thread now. Kek
>>62510065Shit holery is racial. Are there whites and open space? Then it is not a shit hole. Jews just try to wreck those places economically because whites threaten them. But they are awesome places. people there are great. Cities and burbs suck Jew nigger cock worldwide
Not fixing denglish►Sima Innovation Rotating Ring MountSima Innovation, a Danish specialist in vehicle mounts, presented the prototype of a further developed version of its motorized rotating ring mount for special forces vehicles at KSK Symposium. In its original form, the mounts will be used in the future recon / combat vehicle (AGF-2) and fire support vehicle with a 20 mm machine gun (AGF-2-MK) of the KSK, among other things. The mounts will also be used in the Danish Piranha V platforms.According to a company rep, the prototype was developed in just a few days in response to feedback at this year's DALO Days (a Danish arms fair), held from August 21 to 22. The idea behind the prototype is to expand the carriage designed for the use of MGs and grenade machine weapons with a simultaneous AT capability. The carriage, which designed for modular construction, was expanded to include a mount for Spike LR2 – introduced in the German army as the MELLS or MELLS LR2 ATGM – on the right side in the direction of fire.The idea is that the gunner attaches the spike to the mounting device when the vehicle is in position and uses the system when required, similar to the procedure used, for example, with Milan and MELLS ATGMs paired with the Marder IFV. Theoretically, the weapon system could also remain on the gun carriage while the vehicle is moving, but this would require special protection against vibration.- modular- four ring sizes for integration onto vehicle platforms of different sizes- sizes range from small 4×4 vehicles to 8×8 wheeled tanks and trucks- the system can be expanded to include hatches and ballistic protection components for the gunner (crow's nest) or storage facilities for ammunition boxes- the special thing about the rotating ring mount, however, is the electric side drive: the power transmission of the 24V electric motor takes place via a slip ring and therefore does not require any cables.
Zei·ten·wen·de►Comfy LinerThe Austrian Goldeck Textil GmbH, owner of the Carinthia brand, presented the Loftshell Pro, a new jacket for active use in transitional temperatures, for the first time at the 9th KSK Armament Symposium.The Loftshell Pro was shown in the MultiCam Arid camouflage print, as it was introduced by a European special forces unit and is already in use. According to the manufacturer, the water-repellent jacket was developed for special forces operations with the aim of closing the gap between a classic softshell jacket and an insulation jacket.The Loftshell material technology, which was introduced at the beginning of the year, is used, which combines breathability, moisture management and heat regulation. This is achieved by combining a specially developed fleece from the G-Loft family with merino wool.
►ESG HADIS: High Altitude Drop Initiating SystemAn autonomous cargo gliding system. Speaking of which, isn't there a new JPADS clone from somebody in europe? The dutch maybe? I saw it in passing but didn't fully commit it to noggin.>loads weighing up to 500 kg can be transported vertically up to 170 km deep into enemy territoryDisposable, flight-critical brains located in the wing. Fuselage is a cargo box. Operational concept "provides for up to" 5 HADIS folded and packed in a container, to be distributed as a swarm to 5 distinct points. Toss it out the back of A400m.https://hartpunkt.de/9-ksk-symposium-ruestung-esg-zeigt-erstmalig-autonomes-frachtgleitsystem-hadis
►Dynamit Nobel FENCESoftware suite for working with smart mines and the like. No photo in the article. Has to exist / important step to get anyone to adopt these zany goofy lads, but likely not sexy in itself. Unless you can set minefields to automagically heal themselves or something. https://hartpunkt.de/digitalisierung-der-sperrfaehigkeit-dnd-digital-will-faehigkeitsspektrum-erweiternRelated: C2ATShttps://desuarchive.org/k/thread/61091788Related: Skorpion 2https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/61886045/#q61957961
►AMMO: 300 BLACKOUTMEN – Metallwerk Elisenhütte GmbH, an ammunition specialist for official and military applications from Nassau an der Lahn in Rhineland-Palatinate, presented a hard core cartridge in caliber .300 Blackout (7.62×35) for the first time as part of the accompanying exhibition of this year's 9th KSK Armament Symposium.According to the statements of a MEN representative present, the 9.8g (151 grain) hard core bullet with a tungsten carbide core has enough energy to penetrate protective vests of protection class SK4 at a distance of more than 100 meters, even if the supersonic cartridge is fired from a weapon with a short 9" (229mm) barrel.The lead-free and low-pollutant cartridge was specially designed for use in the armed forces and can be used over the entire temperature range relevant for military operations, -54℃ to +52℃. Though the newly introduced hard core cartridge MEN has not yet been adopted by any authority or armed forces, the company assumes that there is a need for this ammunition. For example, in recent years various police authorities and the special forces of the German armed forces have decided to introduce weapons in .300 Blackout caliber.
►IRIS-T SLM reaches IOC with LuftwaffeWith the handover of the first of six IRIS-T SLM air defence systems ordered for the Luftwaffe and training for the system’s first operators now complete, the German Air Force has achieved initial operating capability (IOC) with the system.The handover took place on 4 September 2024 at the Todendorf military training area in Schleswig-Holsteinin in the presence of high-ranking representatives from politics, industry and the Bundeswehr, headed by German Chancellor Olaf Scholz and Federal Minister of Defence Boris Pistorius, as well as representatives from member countries of the European Sky Shield Initiative.
>>62515687Nice, that's actually directly interesting. I'm hoping to do my first 300bo rifle this year.
>>62516168Seethe second rate european, seethe.
>>62516583this time 1v1 kraut
>>62516651You would go broke within days, Poorlack.
>>62516658we'd see who would break first. we can be nurishedd by our honour, you can only feed on suffering of innocents.
>>62515401Would you have shot the granny or just gone along until the issue solves itself? lol
>>62515718>poltard-panoramaAnd just to acknowledge the large chunk of this thread that veered into flamewar - to the actual poltards who were arguing itt, sorry, but every waking moment I spend not building things to kill zigs is currently spent researching new things to kill zigs. Where I'm at with things, your debate about germany's political factions and socioculturalpoliticalbiogeochemical malaise is like watching a war between two slightly different species of ant for me. This too shall pass, demoralized europosters. Victory requires only that you decide whether your general is EGG or EUK, once and for all. Next time I will use something less likely to derail for the OP image, like a mixed-race couple celebrating NYE in Köln.Now for replying to actual replies before I forget>>62512035>obscurant optimizing-at-the-margins spirals, as avoidance of the harder or more uncomfortable tasks at handIs there a term, slang, anything for this phenomenon in german government work? There's an odd degree of seemingly deliberate "penny smart, pound poor" procedure and procurement in all things that german public bureaucracies touch.The french will chase the bag, running after the biggest contracts and doing whatever songs and dances they feel will help them secure those contracts, then they'll bloat everything to utter hell. But at least in the public sector, the more typical german approach is to just endlessly rehash requirements for like, one of three airmobile vehicles.It's more deliberate in a way. Like whole segments of the payers and buyers revel in pursuit of the "noncentral fallacy.">How can we get paid to do military work, without doing anything of military utility? Or spending military-size sums?>>62515447I wasn't in attendance. I've now seen a dozen people ask about the Waltherwasser and no responses from anyone who has had it. Might be Limited Edition®
►New hard-kill capabilities for the Bundeswehr's ASUL drone defense systemThe German army has been using the ASUL (defense system for unmanned aircraft) system for several years to protect its field camps from drones. It combines sensors with soft-kill capabilities to identify and classify approaching aircraft and then use a jammer to attack them.The technology and software are stored in transportable containers. So far, however, there is no way to fend off drones using a hard-kill solution if necessary. However, this could soon change. According to well-informed sources, such a solution is currently being worked on. The ten weapon stations from the Norwegian manufacturer Kongsberg, which were procured as part of the "qualified air defense" project, with the integrated grenade machine guns, would be used. The overarching software is then likely to be provided by ESG, which has so far acted as the general contractor for ASUL. ESG programmed the counter-UAS software used, called Elysium, itself.The project to create a qualified air force, with which the German Army actually wanted to establish an initial capability for drone defense for the VJTF 2023 with ten grenade launchers on Kongsberg weapon stations, was finally canceled after considerable delays. With the introduction of a new army air defense system based on the Skyranger anti-aircraft tank with a powerful 30mm cannon, the demand pressure is also likely to have decreased.The Hensoldt radar, called Spexer 2000 Mark 3, was planned as the main sensor for the qualified air defense. [Article continues . . .] https://hartpunkt.de/neue-hardkill-faehigkeiten-fuer-das-bundeswehr-drohnenabwehrsystem-asulRelated: Hensoldt × Fraunhofer MEMS microphone upgrade for Puma softkill APShttps://desuarchive.org/k/thread/62424784
>>62515591Stop LARPing, The “white open spaces” are basically kept alive by the economic power of urban centres (subsidies and protection) since the industrial revolution and arguably even before that
>>62517064https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hds9tFMuU8o
>>62516651I can't decide what's dumber, thinking poland and germany would ever fight again, thinking it would be 1v1 or thinking poland would come out on top.
>>62517311Personally, I liked that he had to find an example from the end of WWI without a clear result while talkikng about "1v1s" as if the world war just didn't happen.
>>62517322ww1 happened, Poland was a battlefield of the eastern front, that still left a lot of the country in ruins, Polish soldiers fought in 3 armies of the great war, and we still managed to defeat you 1v1, at the same time we were about to fight ussr.
>>62517356Sure you did. Pls try again, like for demanding reparations by force or something. I'm sure good things will happen to you.
>>62517363you can take your money, and shove it so far up your ass that it would come out your throat. also you were first demanding reperations, so go fuck yourself
>>62517311win or lose, what matters is revenge
>>62517376>One (1) german person that has never been close to a government demanding reparations>Several polish governments demanding reparationsPolacks can't see the difference?>>62517379But I don't feel like getting revenge on poland, we clearly did enough damage to your national psyche.
>>62517394>kraut acts like it's better than everyoneok, let's see another politician, this time more influencial.
>>62517416... you do realize he's been dead for longer than your parents have been alive?But I'm frankly amazed to see how deeply poles study german politics to find someone saying anything offensive towards poland.
>>62517429Are you suprised? Not even a single wehrmacht officer, not to mention ss and ex-nsdap members, showed remorse for what you have done in Poland. You are still the same evil creatures you've been.
>>62517445FYI I'm not a wehrmacht officer. Sadly.
>>62517034>And just to acknowledge the large chunk of this thread that veered into flamewar - to the actual poltards who were arguing itt, sorry, but every waking moment I spend not building things to kill zigs is currently spent researching new things to kill zigs. Where I'm at with things, your debate about germany's political factions and socioculturalpoliticalbiogeochemical malaise is like watching a war between two slightly different species of ant for me.Anon, nobody fucking careslmao
>>62517356>1v1>WWIThe polish inability to grasp anything beyond their immediate view is truly a wonder to behold.There was no "1v1" in WWI, anon. If there would've been you would've just seen a repeat of what happened in Poland in WWII, since it's been an underdeveloped, frequently conquered and largely irrelevant province for about a thousand years now.
>>62517445>Are you suprised? Not even a single wehrmacht officer, not to mention ss and ex-nsdap members, showed remorse for what you have done in PolandYou dropped this.
>>62517449You see, you still take delight from what you've done to Poland and Polish people. As for wehrmacht past, i can bet 1000 bundesmarks that your grandfather or great grandfather was a wehrmacht soldier or wehrmacht officer
>>62517459>since it's been an underdeveloped, frequently conquered and largely irrelevant province for about a thousand years now.Any more lies you want to say?
>>62517479You'd lose, he was Waffen SS lol.>you still take delight from what you've done to Poland and Polish people.No, that was barely worth mentioning and frankly kinda embarrassing, genociding people who did nothing to us. I do take delight in having stuffed the french though, they totally had it coming.
>>62517485>their greatest victory is defeating a tiny, irrelevant order nearly a millenium agoAnon, I know that is an extremely important event for Poles, because it's basically the only success you can ever point towards, but you have to realize that basically nobody else even knows it happened, because it's so incredibly irrelevant.It's as if Germans would celebrate sacking 10 polish villages 900 years ago.Nobody cares, these things are forgotten by nations with real achievements.
>>62517496>genociding people who did nothing to us.>did nothing to usI have some bad news, anon. Polish perfidy is not a recent development.
>>62517500I didn't know that prussia was unimportant shithole. I bet house hohenzollern were just some cattle headers
>>62517520>I didn't know that prussia was unimportant shithole.it was before ~1700
>>62517496>genociding people If there would have been a concentrated effort to genocide poles there'd be a lot more dead poles, anon.>who did nothing to usYou don't even have to go into some kind of right wing history lesson to know that's wrong. The way they treated Danzig and the surrounding regions before the war was fucked up even if you ignore all claims of atrocities and just go by official government policies.Plus, Josef Beck existed as a human and everything he touched turned to shit that would haunt Poland in his time as a foreign minister.
>>62517520The teutonic order in the duchy of prussia was completely irrelevant at the time, anon.You're projecting more recent success of a different state onto a group of people that didn't have much to do with them.> I bet house hohenzollern were just some cattle headersthe Hohenzollerns were everywhere in dozens of branches, the master of the teutonic knights you're thinking of was of the Ansbach branch which was about as irrelevant as it gets:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Ansbach
>>62517520>>62517485There are 2 kinds of people who know the teutonic order existed, butthurt poles and people who played Europa Universalis.One of these groups is aware that the order was a tiny and unimportant eastern state among 300-400 German states in the HRE. The other thinks it was 19th century Prussia but in medieval times.One of the weird quirks of historical conversations online. I kinda wanna see a pole who played the game someday just to find out how he sees it from knowing both the truth and the national myth.
>>62517537You just have to lie, since it bothers you that unlike you we just demanded a tribute, while you in similar situation decided to at first erase Polish national identity, and then when our spirits proved to tough to break, you decided to start a genocide.
>>62517648Ment for>>62517565
>>62517640>find out how he sees it from knowing both the truth>kraut dares to speak of the truth, while spreading lies and slander about Poland to this day
>>62517648Anon, first of all: What the fuck are you even responding to in that post?Second of all, Germans conquered, ruled or divided up Poland over a dozen times in history and always had that opportunity. >erase Polish national identity, and then when our spirits proved to tough to break, you decided to start a genocide.Please wake up from your childish delusions. You're embarrassing yourself and your nation.>>62517651Redirecting it to that post doesn't make it any better. What the fuck are you talking about?
>>62517658Nobody cares about Poland in Germany, anon. Your obsession is completely one-sided.
>>62517648>and then when our spirits proved to tough to break, you decided to start a genocide.Why do Poles always talk like 14 year old jewish theater kids pitching their Anne Frank play?Also slightly unrelated, but has anybody seen pregnant Anne Frank anon lately?
>>62517660>responding to in that post?>Second of all, Germans conquered, ruled or divided up Poland over a dozen times in history and always had that opportunity.That's a lie.
>>62517666Really? Why won't you stay the fuck away from my country then? Why do you feel the need to stick your fingers into Polish politics?
>>62517703I think you're just unaware of how many of your rulers were German.Like that one guy who was famous for throwing foxes very high who was brought in from outside because Poles couldn't find a ruler. Granted, he probably have the worst track record of German rulers in Poland, lelhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocORTneoKxM>>62517715Anon, have you considered that the people in your country who point towards Germany for all your problems are lying to you for political gain?When that PiS politician talked about Germans poisoning the rivers that flow in the completely wrong direction for that, did you not hesitate for one second to think "wait a second, these guys are fucking retarded"?I got pic related from a Polish friend of mine, we both thought it's pretty fucking funny, but don't you see an obvious problem with your press when they make shit like that up?
>>62517451Sheeple would be an unearned compliment.
>>62517734Oh wow, a fat zigger loving cuck as a source, not only that but showing one of 2 german kings in the entire history of Poland, really proof that "germany ruled and controlled Poland dozens of times". Fuck you. As for your stance on pis, they are bunch of retards, but the amount of butthurt God-chairman, his highest majest, lord of all felines, and ever virgin causes you, is unreal. Still you have your fingers not only in current gov. but also in the "far right opposition"
>thread about German equipment>full of Polish sperging about random shit
>>62517797>Oh wow, a fat zigger loving cuck as a source, not only that but showing one of 2 german kings in the entire history of Poland, really proof that "germany ruled and controlled Poland dozens of times"Most of those times Poland didn't exist, was a client state or occupied.Also>sourcelmao nigger it's just a funny video, if you want to know more about the guy look him up. There were others too even when Poland was formally independent.>As for your stance on pis, they are bunch of retards, but the amount of butthurt God-chairman, his highest majest, lord of all felines, and ever virgin causes you, is unreal. I literally don't know whom you're talking about, we just laugh at you people here. I only know about the poisoned rivers because a pole accused me of poisoning their rivers on /k/ a few years ago and that stuck with me.> Still you have your fingers not only in current gov. but also in the "far right opposition"Okay? Good?I have no idea if that's true because, as I said, nobody here gives a fuck about Poland. You're also incredibly delusional so I wouldn't trust your word on anything.You need to realize that your hatred and obsession is completely one-sided. Germany may be in your news daily, but Poland doesn't show up in German news more than once a year.You're literally just not relevant enough for people to care or the media to even mention you.Even pic related is only something I know about due to /k/.And I wouldn't know about it if you poles wouldn't come into every German thread to whine and get laughed at.
>>62517862I guess krauts can derail threads about Polish equipment
>>62517876What equipment even is there?And I'm sure Poles manage that on their own just fine. Probably while accusing each other of being German, Russian and Swedish or whatever
>>62517869>Most of those times Poland didn't exist, was a client state or occupied.Lying to you comes as easy as breathing >You need to realize that your hatred and obsession is completely one-sided. Germany may be in your news daily, but Poland doesn't show up in German news more than once a year. You're literally just not relevant enough for people to care or the media to even mention you.And yet whenever I hear about you krauts in Poland you act like a spoiled, entitled cunts, and then you act suprised that we continue to hate you
>>62517916>Lying to you comes as easy as breathingNice of you to admit that you lie as easily as you breathe, anon.Poland was partitioned like half a dozen times, four of them major, ruled repeatedly and didn't exist repeatedly. >And yet whenever I hear about you krauts in Poland you act like a spoiled, entitled cunts, and then you act suprised that we continue to hate you>whenever my anti-German media tells me about Germans it's negative, WEIRD HUH?Let me guess, when you saw this image >>62517734 you didn't take a second to consider how the fuck Germans would even know about rising wages in Poland and why they would care.You just consumed propaganda and looked forward to the next propaganda, didn't you?
>>62517660>Second of all, Germans conquered, ruled or divided up Poland over a dozen times in history and always had that opportunity.>>62517703>That's a lie.>>62517869>Most of those times Poland didn't exist, was a client state or occupied.>>62517916>Lying to you comes as easy as breathingLet's see if I can resolve this through simple googling. I'll give myself a limit of 10 minutes.>2 kings you admitted toPresumably Augustus II and Augustus III>1 you omittedSigismund of Luxembourg>4 partitions of poland 1772–1918https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland>fifth partition in WWII>occupation in WWII after Russians were kicked outWWI>During World War I, Germany and Austria-Hungary occupied most of Poland, which had been part of the Russian Empire. In 1916, the Germans and Austrians created a puppet state known as the Kingdom of Poland, often referred to as the Regency Kingdom of Poland.Congress of Vienna:>Parts of Poland, especially western regions, were handed back to Prussia during the Congress of Vienna 1815. The creation of the Grand Duchy of Posen under Prussian authority is a further instance of Polish lands under German influence.Now since its existence as a client state was also included>Mieszko I (960–992), Poland's first historical ruler, was forced to pay tribute to the German Emperor Otto I after a military defeat in 963.>Bolesław I the Brave (992–1025), the first crowned King of Poland, sought to maintain Polish independence but had complex relations with the HRE, sometimes acknowledging its suzerainty and sometimes asserting independence.Let's not count the schizo.Alright, onto occupations:>In 1308, the Teutonic Knights, a Germanic military order, seized Gdańsk (Danzig) and subsequently controlled much of Pomerania. While not a full occupation of all of Poland, the Teutonic Knights controlled key parts of northern Poland for over a century.That's easily over one dozen times. You were wrong, Polish anon. Apologize.
>>62518015>>In 1308, the Teutonic Knights, a Germanic military order, seized Gdańsk (Danzig) and subsequently controlled much of Pomerania. While not a full occupation of all of Poland, the Teutonic Knights controlled key parts of northern Poland for over a century.I didn't even know about this, but that does explain the seemingly random butthurt of Poles about them. It also explains why they always leave that part of the story out though, imagine getting occupied by a small crusading order for over a century.I'll probably forget about it again soon, but it's interesting that the Pole kept calling everybody a liar and screeched about ziggers but ended up being so easily disproven.Polish nationalist propaganda is something else.
>>62518015>counted debatable, and never rightfully proclaimed king>counted ww1 twiceAs I said liar
>>62518091Then why won't you fuck off from Poland? Never set foot in Poland, take your money and choke on it and keep away from Poland.
>>62518125>>counted debatable, and never rightfully proclaimed kingAnon, this wasn't about status but power, titles don't matter. And WWII counts both as a partition and an occupation.But even if we ignore that, you were still wrong and should apologize for calling people liars when you just didn't know what you were talking about.>>62518158Anon, are you fucking retarded?First of all, feel free to reject "the money", the Polish government never has so any complaint should be directed at your own people here. Second of all, no German you ever talked to here really cared about Poland.For fuck's sake, it's not my fault your politicians (apparently) suck German cock. It's not my problem either. If it's good for Germany that's nice, but I don't really care, no German does.You keep trying to seek blame with everybody else, grow the fuck up and fix your problems on your own. Your politicians aren't my fault. It's also not my fault Augustus became King of Poland because your nobles were corrupt retards.Learn to take some fucking responsibility, you sound like an actual nigger blaming the white man.
>>62510540This post has convinced me that Russia is not weak but in fact very strong
>>62518223I don't mind sending Ukraine 1000 tanks if we get Ukrainian resources for free in the next 30 years in exchange.The way things are right now Germany sends Ukraine tons of money and military equipment with no real gain for Germany itself. Peace and cheap gas is preferable to war and literally nothing.If Russia is so weak, why the fuck doesn't Ukraine win already so it can occupy their oilfields and mines? If Russia is strong, why are we wasting time?
>>62518202Fuck you
>>62518258I care so little about you that I can't even take satisfaction from the fact that I proved you wrong on all accounts and broke you.I'd much rather you'd be happy and friendly. There's 0 points in making enemies you don't need.
>>62518255You'll get nothing, and we will make sure of it kraut. Not even a single grain of ore, drop of petrol, a wif of gas will be transported to Germany through Poland
>>62518269>I'd much rather you'd be happy and friendly.That's a lie>There's 0 points in making enemies you don't needNo, but you have vested interest in making us into the nation.of gastarbeiters at best, and slaves at worse
>>62518282You tried that already when you blocked our support to Ukraine, anon. I think we can deal with the delays.>>62518309>That's a lieWhy the fuck would it be?Aside from me not caring enough to want you miserable, I genuinely feel bad for you.And from a completely selfish point of view:We're fucking neighbours you retard. Germany will do better when Poland does.>No, but you have vested interest in making us into the nation.of gastarbeiters at best, and slaves at worseWe don't need any more unskilled labor, there are machines for that nowadays, anon. Go be a slave to somebody else or find a German dom if that's your kink.
>>62510501>>62510525Maybe you stupid german NIGGERS shouldve shut up and not ruined nuclear for fucking EVERYONE. I hope your power bill doubles this year
>>62518511Nobody's stopping you from going for nuclear power, retard.
>>62518545ThisSeveral european states are currently building nuclear power plantsYou absolute idiot
>>62518269>I care so little about you that I can't even take satisfaction from the fact that I proved you wrong on all accounts and broke you.
>>62517701Speak of the Devil and he shall appear...
>>62518327>Why the fuck would it be?because you're german, you would gladly make more deals with russia (just like the most recent nord stream 2) to fuck over Poland. you haven't changed from 1939, you are still the same bastards.>We're fucking neighbours you retard. Germany will do better when Poland does.nice lie there, but we already grew wise to your lies.
>>62521331>Ratunku! Biją mnie Niemcy! XDDDD
>>62521356>t.
>>62521331>seething this hard so early in the morningjust Polish things
>>62521551Bare knuckle boxing isn't finished yet
>>62508684They do but they use old school duck
>>62510440Says a lot more about you than it.
>>62517064>Farmer's biggest customers are shithole cities, therefore rural areas could not exist without citiesYou are a special kind of retarded.
Well? Surely you don't think you're just going to stop now, 231 posts into this?
>>62523262That depends if you krauts are picking up the gauntlet
>>62523355annon it's okay to be gay for Germanybut you act more like russian than a Pole Poles having the best standard of living ever, being the able to travel and work freely all over the EU, not having to fear being divided by hostile powers ect. aren't good enough for you. No you are the type of russoid that would destroy all of that over scoring some dumb point you have admitted in other treads you know is dumb but you do so because of your feefees, like a russian we wuzzing over WWII.If I didn't know you are a backwards autistic schizo I'd have thought you where a russian
>>62524639There you are belgian. It really warms my heart knowing that Polish blood spilled to liberate tielt, ruiselede and many others is appreciated by you
>>62518327You know Jack shit about Polish history krautnigger
>>62521331>you would gladly make more deals with russia (just like the most recent nord stream 2) to fuck over Poland.>NS2 to fuck over PolandIs that what Poles believe happened?Do Poles believe they have some kind of divine right to be able to blackmail Germany about gas transit fees? lmao
>>62525614Even better, I really don't care about it either.Nobody cares about you. Stay mad.
>>62525689DW showed a study that you don't know anything. The 36% of your countrymen said that we should learn from you how to deal with ww2 history.
>>62525717>DW showed a study>totally not obsessed Pole watches German leftist media and is retarded enough to believe themThat's actually hilarious, anon. Do you know when I last consumed any piece of Polish media in my life?Never.You will find the answer to the question of why here >>62525689
>>62525739So aloof, so high and mighty. You will change your tune when we block all railway tracts and mine the shit out of our territorial waters.
>>62525748Anon, I neither know nor care about what any of that means.But you are right about one thing:I am better than you.
>>62525678Poles believe that germany is just on the brink of absolutely ignoring its NATO duties in case russia comes knocking, or worse join in to gang up on poland (they're too dumb to wonder how that would work out with the rest of NATO). So they believe they need and morally deserve a blackmail option on germany by controlling the gas lines. Germany trying to free itself from it is considered proof that germany really does want to betray poland, because otherwise it should be ok with the blackmail risk.
>>62525748>we block all railway tracts and mine the shit out of our territorial watersIt hurts itself in its confusion!
>>62525758No, you're not. In fact you're worse than us, since we're the noble knights standing against the darkness, while you're the part of the axis of darkness. Remember one thing, we're about to reach our breaking point, especially since you decided to turn Poland into a dumping ground for your shitskins.
>>62525769How? We're self reliant enough not to starve, and we have enough industrial capacity to jury rig sonething
>>62525763>(they're too dumb to wonder how that would work out with the rest of NATO).It seems you've shown us "how it would work out with the rest of NATO"
>>62525824Err?
>>62525839You showed that "rest of NATO" would be OK with throwing Poland under the bus. That's OK, we'd just have to resort to other methods
>>62525763What is the cure to such mental illness?>>62525787Kinda stopped reading after a few words to be perfectly honest with you, anon.>>62525883I mean, in a conflict of Germany vs Poland "the rest of NATO" would most likely side with Germany, if that's what you mean.
>>62525883the fuck are you talking aboutIf germany attacked poland with russia, all of NATO would gang up on us. Which is one reason germany would never do it. (Also because we don't have an army to do it, also because we don't feel like it but I know you disagree on that last one). Shirking NATO duties would be bad enough too (end of the EU, end of our economy as we know it) that I strongly doubt it would happen.
>>62525968You are dumping your arabs into Poland now
>>62525998>YouAs far as I remember PiS is extremely anti-German and campaigned on being anti-German, anon.
>>62525968>What is the cure to such mental illness?Another few decades should do the trick. Consider that poland has been subjected to totalitarian state levels of anti-german propaganda this past decade, it can really do a number on people. But they did elect a pro-german party lately, so it didn't really take with some 50% of poles, and mostly younger ones too.>in a conflict of Germany vs Poland "the rest of NATO" would most likely side with GermanySince the most likely cause for such a conflict would currently be poland demanding reparations by force, that is the truth.
>>62525994Of course I disagree with you since you arr returning to pre ww2 narrative. Just like russians now next generation of your countrymen will start building monuments to hitler
>>62526043>you are returning to pre ww2 narrativeIs this WW2 narrative in the room with us right now?
>>62526024>But they did elect a pro-german party lately,Wasn't that just because the anti-German party that made up ridiculous shit to blame Germany and constantly lied to other nations and the press turned out to be exactly as morally corrupt as such behaviour would suggest?>>62526043Join us.
>>62526052Yeshttps://awpe.pl/en/revisionist-campaign-against-poland-in-a-german-newspaper-they-want-to-blame-poles-for-world-war-ii/
>>62526097>noooo you can't tell the truth about Poland's disgusting behaviourlmao grow up
>>62526010https://www.dw.com/en/germany-begins-expanded-border-controls-to-control-migration/a-70218944
>>62526097The government literally tried to ban that magazine two months ago.
>>62526120So you decided to prove my point, thank you
>>62526132Shouldn't you be happy germany is waking up to the dangers of immigration?
>>62526146Not when you're pushing that problem onto Poland
>>62526132>Polish subhumans can't send Arabs to Germany anymore after faking their papers for money like PiS did for thousands>that means Germany is sending Poland Arabslmao>>62526145You don't have a point or you'd have pointed out the lies.But you couldn't point any out, you only pointed out a truth you don't like.
>>62526154>If germany stops poles from pushing arabs into germany, that's germany pushing the problem onto polandLol
>>62526097>>62526132Since you couldn't find anything real, how about a dose of reality instead?https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-government-under-fire-cash-for-visa-scheme-scandal-election/In a sane world this would've resulted in a declaration of war and a punitive expedition removing a couple million poles from existence.
>>62526158I would point them out, but you've already took all of goebbels lies as a hard truth, so why should i bother
>>62526097>>62526120Germans taking a revisionist position on poland concerning WW2 are a tiny minority. They generally fit into AfD, but at the same time AfD does not take this position because they are also courting polish immigrants.>Norbert Kleinwaechter, vice-president of the AfD parliamentary faction in the Bundestag and member of the delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, explains to Rzeczpospolita that the magazine “Compact”, with which the AfD has nothing to do, does not belong to the party nor does it act on its behalf.” – Publisher Jürgen Elsässer is not a party member either, but he tries to influence some party members. His views are contrary to those of the AfD, emphasizes Kleinwächter and adds that he regrets the publication”. Remind you, AfD is the rightmost party in germany. The government literally tried to ban this magazine. Anyone mainstream who would take such positions would instantly be cancelled.
>>62526198You're the kind of guy who used to have a girlfriend from a different school nobody knew, aren't you?>>62526202Compact isn't a right wing magazine, they're hugely into the commie bitch Wagenknecht.Poland's disgusting behaviour isn't controversial either though, historians never made a secret out of that.
>>62526189Do it then. Show us that we were right about you all along
>>62526217We don't live in a sane world, anon.Poland exists after all.
>>62526189>declaration of war and a punitive expeditionDon't be retarded like a pole here anon.
>>62526223Ooooh we're doing it then. That's what i wanted. Well then, in a sane world you would be cushed and erased back during germanicus campaigning
>>62526223>>62526250In a sane world you would both shut up.
>>62526216> Compact isn't a right wing magazine> Lying on the internet in2024
>>62511025That rifle looks so slick.
>>62526234While there is some truth to that, I'm just having fun with the Pole.Anybody who ever said bullying the retarded isn't fun never talked to a Pole.>>62526250Adorable. Germanicus campaign was a massive failure, he lost huge amounts of trained soldiers just to burn down a couple of villages. The only reason he got a triumph is because Tiberius was his uncle and Germanicus his presumed heir. Tacitus then spun regime propaganda for it much later, excusing his complete failure to achieve his stated goal by pretending paying off some locals to get the eagles back Varus lost when he was crushed "restored the honour of the legions."Man, that was the unluckiest period you could've chosen for your historically illiterate barb.t. literal expert>>62526283Compact plays both the far left and the far right for clicks and money and constantly releases dumb boomer coin collections. They're not far right, just boomer ratcatchers.>>62526268Handle the banter, nigger.
>>62526290Well then, with new goverment we will take our ball, and leave. Have fun trying to trade with russia
>>62526334Didn't Poles cry for years about Polands new main government party has been sucking German cock for years?
>>62526340The current gov will soon fall apart due to them not having the majority. Soon God-Emperor will ascend to his throne and he will deal with you permanently, by building giant fuck off wall, trenches and bunker complex.
>>62526373Is that the guy whose twin brother got cucked to death by ziggers on a plane?
>>62526399No that's our God-Emoeror that will save our nation from your evils and will lead humanity into a golden age
As an American, I don't really care about your arguments. As long as you don't start fellating Russia (who is not European) and agree that Hungary needs to be kicked in the balls for sabotaging the EU, it's none of my business.
>>62526452We helped to establish your country.
>>62526428Cute rat-chan.>>62526452Don't care about Russia, Hungary is fine and the EU leadership is no friend to Europeans.Stick to your own continent.
>>62521601don't you have to chimp out and throw shit like a subhuman when people try to cut your comfy subsidies?
>>62526464You were saying?
>>62526464So did basically every single European country except the Danes at some point.>>62526466Hungary is bending the knee to China and acting as their proxy in the EU's decision-making.
>>62526511What i said>>62526516And yet you've shafted us the most
No one cares about Polacks here in Germany but of course Polacks cant just mind their own business, they simply cant live without demanding money from others. Polacks are known as thieves here but otherwise no one cares.The whole thing can be solved if Polacks simply leave others alone. But they are incapable of doing so. They are a blight in Europe.
>>62526586America has historically fucked Poland over less than literally any European nation besides maybe Spain or Sweden. Obviously Germany is number one, but the UK isn't far behind.
Got any german police/ counter terrorism stuff? Always thought it looked cool.
>>62526628
>>62526623Nice projection krautnigger. Meanwhile in reality you're incapable of minding your own buisness, and fucking over other countries. You always keep silent about how much you earned of the Poland's memebership in EU. Come now, post your gay little infographic showing how "evil Pole take german money". Like i said countless times ITT: take your money and shove it up your ass. As for blight on europe, you're the ones that fucked over continent numerous times while we just wanted to farm and export grain.
>>62526627Fucking Poland over less than sweden is the one of the lowest bars i can conceive of.>he doesn't know about The Deluge
>>62526679The eternal Pole, at the same time the greatest victim of the EU which makes his country poor and magically unable to just leave.
>>62526702Don't worry, the moment 1989 betrayal is reveald we will leave and close our borders, as well as costal waters, and air space to you.
>>62526716Oh no
