the difference is negligib... ACK!Why do people repeat this horseshit? Now I'm not claiming that there is anything wrong with 9mm, but muh "bullet technology" applies across the board.
>>62509425>Why do people repeat thisThey look at data rather than their emotional response to pictures. All typical calibers perform the same in real-world shootings. There's nothing to debate here, though a lot of fuddy-five boomers can't handle the truth.
>>62509457We should drop 9mm in military roles and switch them to 380 for lower recoil and faster follow up shots.
>>62509465make it hypersonic and you've got yerself a hot round sonny
>>62509457Cool more gay disinformation designed to make fags and women feel better about themselves for not being able to control .50 AE. Fuck off.>>62509465even funnier because the /k/ hivemind reliably shits on 5.7
.45 is inferior because most people can't get their hands around a double stack mag. Meaning that the capacity advantage for 9mm is even greater than it would be if both were single stack. Simply put, 9mm makes better use of the available mag space.
>>625094859mm is just the perfect size, don’t you know? Go 0.1mm smaller and it’s going to bounce off someone’s skin. Go 0.1mm larger and it’s a useless, oversized fudd round that doesn’t do anything any better than based 9mm does.
>>62509544Bullshit. The FNX 45 grip is barely thicker than a standard Glonk grip.
even 45 is small if you have man sized hands.
if caliber matters so much why is 22 still one of the top murder rounds in the US? and we arent talking boutique 22, were talking cci and blazer slop. bullets kill people anon, whining about caliber is a big retard move
>>62509600Garbage logic. If you follow that to its natural conclusion, baseball bats are better for killing people than rifles of any caliber.
>>62509425self defense cases go a lot smoother if the cops only listen to one story. and the boston caliber study says the likelihood of the BG testifying after your "stop" shot continues to go down as the bullet gets bigger
>>62509457fpbp>>62509465Handgun rounds do in fact have basically zero usage in modern military and are primarily archaic in nature. To the extent any still exist, they're full size because concealed carry is not a thing for fucking infantry you absolute mong.>380 for lower recoil and faster follow up shots>yeah switching from full size hg with nonexistent recoil that is never used vs service rifle anyway is totally worth throwing away every existing gun and ammo for nadaConsider suicide.
>>62509485>even funnier because the /k/ hivemind reliably shits on 5.7And rightly so since it's a shitty handgun round, most people are not allowed to own SMGs, and pccs with expensive bullets are a meme.
>>62509679>wordswordswordsHoly shit I didn’t expect some 9mm fudd to gobble the bait that hard.
>>62509457>Marshall and Sanowlmao
>>62509682But anon I was told by a very reliable study that all handgun rounds were the same regarding stop rate, so one couldn’t POSSIBLY be shitty, especially when it gives you more rounds and less recoil.
>>62509684>gets btfo>haha I was only pretending to be retardedA tale as old as 4chan.>>62509694>I admit all handgun rounds perform about the same>I admit no civilians has ever once had trouble defending themselves with revolver amounts of ammo>wait guys why won't you pick this meme round that is hard to conceal carry and costs way more moneyMaybe think that one through a bit further anon. I hope you're one of the ultra, ultra rare 5.7 shills who at least owns one of the guns.
>>62509709>can’t tell when sarcasm is being used to make a point and answers literally4channers being autistic is even older
>>62509709You’re comically missing the point as you fall over yourself to give 9mm different standards than other rounds.
>>62509754No anon, that'd be you. Here are the standards for handgun rounds for the super majority of the market, in order from most to least important:>cost of ammo>cost of guns>ability to fit in small guns for CC, and being pleasant enough to use by anyone>what friends/family/coworkers use>flexibility>availability of ammo, guns, and load varietyNotice what doesn't appear on here? Any of the theorycraft number shit you sperg about, because it doesn't matter. You can seethe about it all you like but that's reality.For a niche but very cool part of the market, they just like bigboolet and enjoy shooting cool stuff in challenging conditions. That's awesome. But those kinds of gun owners never make caliber seethe threads either because they don't care what anyone else uses and aren't larpers pretending they're going to solo a battalion with their handgun like a videogame.
>>62509790>all that irrelevant shitFine. Every service sidearm is now a .22LR handgun with CCI mini mags.
>>62509425>watched a gel test of .30 super carry, 9mm, .40 s&w and .45 acp>the first 3 were all pretty close, .40 s&w was the biggest but it wasnt obviously noticably bigger>meanwhile .45 acp was fucking massive
>>62509790>no theorycrafting shit!>proceeds to theorycraftI’m telling you. That autism you have is acting up something fierce today, isn’t it?
>>62509802>the shit everyone cares about is irrelevantlol. The big sign of you retards, and we all can see it at this point because you haven't changed at all in 10 years of these threads, is you have no sort of internal consistency in your aims. You're just mad about some other caliber because of some tribalism sports team sort of shit. If you don't care about what the overall market values, then the threads have no point because you can just reload yourself or pay the higher prices. If you do care, then you have to get out of your autism bubble or you're just pissing into the wind.>>62509812>gel testsI sure hope you at least learned about temporary vs permanent wound cavities.
>>62509830Sure thing anon. It's totally theorycraft that most of the market cares about cost and practicality of carry. 9mm will just be continuing on with more market share then the next 20 handgun calibers combined alright?
>>62509812inb4>MUH TEMPORARY CAVITATION
>>62509425Reminder: 30 super carry is exactly as terminally effective as 9mm and a 20% increase in magazine capacity over 9mm is absolutely a big deal. >Hurr durr but muh big bullet is betterFact: Modern projectile design has made the difference between 32 caliber and 9mm negligible>Hurr durr 30 sc is too expensive$1 extra per mag is not at all a big deal, and self defense is not the place for scrounging pennies anyway.9mm boomers are the most retarded, at least the .40 and .45 fanboys show some logical consistency
>>62509831>blah blah blah I suck dicksThen you’ll concede that .22LR beats 9mm in all those categories except, maybe, reliability then, correct?As a result we should field .22LR pistols with the military because, as you said, it doesn’t matter and is cheaper besides.
>>62509844The argument was quality but 9mm fudds always bring it back to cost. The fuck is up with that?So yes, relying on the metrics of cost as a crutch is literally theorycrafting.
Good threa...ACK
>>62509831No one but an election tourist does as much “LOOK AT ME I’M AN OLDFAG!” as you’re doing right now.
>>62509846just because you can take a whole first up your asshole, that doesn't mean that all your other tissues can stretch that much. that cavity may be temporary but the internal tearing and hemorrhaging it causes will not be.
>>62509880>first instead of fistGo the fuck back phoneposter.
>>62509473>>62509465Hotter take, pistol calibers are fucking worthless in modern war, just give the officers fancy low drag carbines and give the infantry 24" 5.56 with hardened cores for some decent body armor penetration. Anybody in enough armor to resist a volley of that is likely part of a major assault and thus will be facing crew served weapons anyway. Pistols and even smgs are open graft at this point and should be discontinued, if you want to carry your own personal pistol or sword and be a fancy faggot that's completely fine but as a government contract pistols are shit.The only utility for pistol caliber shit in the military is maybe taking .45apc and chambering some fancy new MAC variant in it, since it is natively subsonic and has some decent "stopping power" it should work. The only issue is that without some magic adamantine bullets of the drow from the underdark its going to be shit even against ancient body armor. But then again this application is only for very lightly equipped operation gladio type shit wherein its natively subsonic nature is the key feature when coupled with a fancy new suppressor.
>>62509465We should drop 380 in military roles and switch them to 25 acp for lower recoil and faster follow up shots.
>>62509913Damn right we should. Handguns don’t matter and are all the same, after all.
this retard thread has convinced me to become a .45 boomer>8+1 and a spare mag is more than enough as private citizen DGUs go>real steel makes .45 shoot nice and soft to shoot >I suck less with a single action than any striker slop, might as well embrace it>single stack always easier to conceal than similar size double stack >ligma holster distributes weight evenly across hips, separately from the belt that holds my pants up>21st century data confirms bigger holes are more lethal>instant respect from old farts at the range>old school enough that zoom zooms give up arguing over it>no tupperware will ever look or feel half as badass in your hand
>>62509679In the Army they issue handguns to machine gunners so they have a backup in case they run out of Machine gun ammo I guess. I think it is universal between the branches that the officer on duty carries a sidearm. Plus MP and whatnot.
>>62509457>muh bookToday I will remind them>>62509600Because .22lr is cheap, plentiful, and is used in assassinations. Next question
>>62509694One round could still be shitty because of price and availability.
>>62509900>give the infantry 24" 5.56Please never post again.
>>62509656What? Are you implying that most murders in America are committed with baseball bats lol
>>625094259mm fags are really retarded enough to genuinely believe that 9mm is the perfect pistol caliber and that anything else is either too big/powerful or too small/weak.
>>62510654More people are murdered with blunt objects than rifles, yes.
>>62509425>muh "bullet technology" applies across the boardYeah, but it's not a linear increase to all calibers. A guy who's twice as strong in a fistfight isn't also twice as effective an a gunfight; the addition of the gun had a proportionally much bigger impact on the weak guy's effectiveness. By a similar token, modern bullet technology does improve effectiveness across the board, but until you hit ~2200 fps, the improvements will have diminishing returns for larger calibers.The idea isn't that there isn't a difference; it's that for pistol rounds, there isn't ENOUGH of a difference in terminal ballistics anymore to make a significant enough difference in statistical performance to justify other tradeoffs like capacity and controllability.I don't even carry 9mm, but I don't have a strong case that it's meaningfully worse.
>>62509425As always : shot placement is king. Sure, it's nice to have a slightly wider stabby bullet, but if your stabby isn't in the right place, having one that's marginally wider than the other isn't going to mean shit because the shot is still not going to stop the threat. CNS, heart, lungs, major vessels.Penetration is the only thing that really matters.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AhcuLWIe3A>>62509854>a 20% increase in magazine capacity over 9mm is absolutely a big deal.No, it isn't. 17 vs 21 (or thereabouts) for a full sizesimilar for a compact13 vs 15 (or thereabouts) for a microName a -single- reasonable scenario that a civilian is going to find themselves in where they're going to need more than 13 shots. I won't hold my breath for it.
>>62509544>45 mag too bigmaybe for your tiny handsa metal 13rd double stack 45 mag is just a cunts hair wider than a 17rd 9mm mag
>>62509900>Pistols and even smgs are open graft at this point and should be discontinued, if you want to carry your own personal pistol or sword and be a fancy faggot that's completely fine but as a government contract pistols are shit.gigabased and sanity pilled
the difference was always pretty small, but now arguably 9mm actaully performs better.in terms of consistency primarily, but 45 that expands that large also tends to underpenetratenot really modern advancements, just hollowpoints
Both 9mm and .45 ACP are outdated cartridges from the 19th century.They only persist because pistols don't actually matter IRL, their main use is for ritual dogkilling by members of the law enforcement community.
>>62510573Eat shit faggot a 24" barrel squeezes the most possible out of m885.If they are concerned with armor pen a hardened core 5.56 with a 24" barrel is optimal. I have a 22" myself. Line infantry should be for open warfare, if you need to to clear shit then give them carbines.
ackposting is always so forced.
Hollow points were solved 80 years ago.
>>625094657.62 Tok is the perfect pistol cartridge and the world is just too scared of communist genius to admit it.
Somewhat anecdotal, but case law has shown that you're more likely to be acquitted by shooting an unarmed teen once with 44 magnum than twice with 40 S&W in almost identical circumstances:>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Karon_BlakeWiki doesn't mention it, but Karon Blake was shot twice with a .40 S&W M&P according to the Dept. of Justice and ABC News:>https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/guilty-verdict-man-who-killed-13-year-old-karon-blake>https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-shot-13-year-dead-home-arrested-murder/story?id=96789862The moral of the story is that the first shot you fire in a self-defense shooting is the most important one, legally speaking. You're more likely to be given the benefit of the doubt if you end the threat in one shot, since civilian self-defense shootings end with an average of two shots fired by the defender (this also includes all the instances where the defender magdumps into the attacker). Criminals have no incentive to engage in prolonged gunfights with random citizens. This is one reason why using what cops and military carry as a reference for what armed citizens should carry as their CCWs is flawed thinking. Cops and military carry duty-size 9mm handguns, because they need something fit for the lowest common denominator that is braindead easy to shoot if you only run one box of ammo though it a year for your department qualification or pistol marksmanship merit badge (pic related). Consequently, they need handguns with high capacity, because they're allowed to fire as many shots as necessary to get the job done (watch just about any OIS on Police Activity youtube channel). Armed citizens with CCWs are held to a much, much higher standard in self-defense shootings than "trained" zogbots. Just remember that every round you fire in self-defense has a lawyer attached to it.
>>62517162Shooting twice will only reliably cause you legal trouble if the second shot is from point blank to the head.
>>62517184That might have been true 10 years ago, but now there are cellphone cameras, doorbell cameras, red light cameras, security cameras, etc. everywhere. We now live in a surveillance state. The footage of you shooting a bad guy in the heat of the moment with your adrenaline flowing and fight-or-flight instinct activated could be Monday morning quarterbacked by fat knowitall faggots on the Internet (like that ASP guy from youtube) long before you ever get your day in court. This is why I said that armed citizens with CCWs are held to a higher standard than zogbots. Armed citizens are only legally allowed to keep shooting as long as there's a threat that's present in the eyes of a reasonable person. Cops, on the other hand, are conveniently allowed to keep shooting as long as the suspect isn't complying with their verbal commands- even if there's no actual threat in the eyes of a reasonable person (webm related, Daniel Shaver, etc.). So not only are cops allowed more leniency of how much they can shoot someone, but also under what circumstances they're allowed to shoot someone. The flip side to this is that cops are put under more scrutiny by human rights organizations to NOT kill suspects if at all possible. Remember that the objective of law enforcement is to apprehend suspects, not kill them. Using a weaker cartridge like 9mm is part of this. Prior to 9/11, cops took it seriously that they needed to distinguish themselves as civilian law enforcement from the military by the equipment they used. This was even more true prior to the North Hollywood shootout (led to all cops being issued ARs instead of just SWAT), the 1992 LA Riots (first instance of civilians shooting black rioters with assault rifles), and the Miami-Dade shootout (spurred cops to replace aging revolvers with autoloading handguns and the FBI to adopt 10mm). Cops and civilians are put under completely different types of scrutiny when it comes to shootings. Why should we use the same equipment?
>>62509425Gonna be honest, 9mm and .45acp look a lot alike compared to .30-08 or .223.
45 ACP:>Specifically designed to kill crackhead tribesmen>Used in the only gun that has its own bible verse (19:11)>Is used by countries who win wars and go to the moon9mm:>Made for effeminate euro hands>Unholy abomination beloved by negros and piggers>Is used by losers like g*rmans and FUCKING LEAFSAlso there's no reason to take a weaker round in a full size gun nowadays, using 9 is just a poorfag cope at this point.
>>62517835Pretty much. We've known since at least the Moro Wars that bigger bullets are better at killing people. This recent trend of trying to maximize capacity in 9mm pistols with 3 inch barrels for CCW just seems asinine to me. 90% of the time you're only going to need one or two shots anyway. I pocket carry a singlestack 9mm compact pretty frequently during the summer if I just need to run to the grocery store or something. If I feel like I need something more for winter, it's hard for me to justify going to a duty-sized doublestack 9mm vs something of similar size in a bigger caliber, even if it's singlestack. Are 17 rounds of 9mm really going to make a difference vs 8 or 9 rounds of 45 or 10mm?
>>62518234The moar is bettur crowd will always just be able to say>well if you can fit more in the same design with no real size difference, why not have more?And so we will keep cramming more rounds into micro pistols because why not, theres no real point against it even if its retarded
>>62509900M855A1 (or other improved 5.56 like MK262, MK318) + Something like the Grot where the same platform can be bullpup or conventional. Give bullpup + 14.5-16" barrels to vehicle crews, give infantry officers the conventional (but short barreled) variant and let infantry get the long barreled (18-24") rifles either in bullpup or conventional (yes, both, because Grot-like-platform) based on mission and preference with an option for crew variants for particularly low drag urban type ops.
>>62517338okay retard
>>62509465.380 is more expensive than 9mm and there's pretty much no full size locked breech 380s so small blowbacks offer no advantage..380 hollowpoints are mostly poorly engineered while 9mm can meet the FBI standards and barrier blind considerations.There's also not carry capacity increase versus 9mm.With .380 you get a caliber that performs worse for greater cost, no added capacity, and just the same if not more felt recoil.You'd have to design a .380 super cartridge and locked breech handguns for it. Or just use 9mm.
>>62509545You do understand that things happen for a reason, right?You can design a 8.99mm or a 9.01mm round. You're just going to spend millions in setting up a factory, while 9mm has the economies of scale.If you went back in time and convinced Georg Luger to change the diameter to just a tad smaller maybe we'd have that as the standard NATO round, maybe we wouldn't.Anon, how many .45 GAP guns do you own? It's not that 8.99mm is inherently inferior of a caliber... we just have 9mm laying around so we don't bother. At least .45 GAP had a reason to exist, it made sense to modernize .45 and get the dimensions reduced. And yet if you want a .45 gun you're probably gonna get .45 ACP.You can make a 8.99mm round. People will just buy 9mm.
If .30 SC rotting on shelves isn't the sign you need to realize your next big pistol caliber isn't going to make it off the ground I don't know what it'll take.
>>62509425Modern bullets are pretty impressive
>>62518441Seething wristlet detected. See pic related.>>62518491>9mm can meet the FBI standards and barrier blind considerations.It couldn't in the 1980s. 45 ACP and 10mm met that requirement over 90% of the time, while 9mm met it less than 70%. Then in 2015, the FBI came out and said that we have magic bullets now that can meet the penetration standard in 9mm (i.e. there are hotter factory loads today than there were in the 80s). The real reason for the switch was to save money buying 9mm in bulk, and to accommodate female agents and desk jockeys who still couldn't handle 40 S&W after they toned it down from 10mm.
>>62512808>13 vs 15>Name a -single- reasonable scenario that a civilian is going to find themselves in where they're going to need more than 13 shots. I won't hold my breath for it.This is why .40 is better than 9mm.
>>62512808This but 5 or 6 shots instead of 13
>>62509465We should drop 9mm in military roles and switch them to 5.56 CT. Same with .223 and 6.8 sigger.
>>62518753fixed
>>62517338>1 shot 1 kill screechingyou live in a fantasy land if you plan on shooting exactly once then evaluating the effects in a self defense situation
