Back in the Cold War day the Soviets came out with some new submarines that were very capable such as the Alfa and other deep divers such as the K-278 (Mike Class) that could outrun and outdive US/NATO torpedo.Is this still the case? Can torpedoes be evaded by going sufficiently deep?
no
Well did k278 ever get shot at with us torpedoes?
Oh yeah, that kind of information totally won't be classified.
>>62511182Yes, it's a problem that weapons like Spearfish were designed to solve.
submarines do not dive at 45mph. it is impossible for a submarine to outrun a torpedo.
Pressure hulls vs non pressure hulls.Torpedos will just win, they don't need to protect a 1 atmosphere human tube.
>>62511275You don't rely on changing its buoyancy to dive at that speed, they can move at 45 mph on a step dive (it will depend of the design limits). The problem is the pressure.
>>62511182Soviets didn't design that submarine to out-dive torpedos...Going below the thermocline makes it kinda 'stealth' but it was useless against NATO, they simply paved the sea bottom with hydrophones.
>>62511182French F21 torpedo can dive almost twice as deep as the test depth of the Alpha Class, American Mk48 and the British Spearfish were designed to deny Soviet submarines that can dive beyond 1000 meters.So, no. No they can not just dive deeper to avoid NATO torpedoes anymore.
>>62511301https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_speed_recordthe fastest submarine in history is much slower than a regular torpedo
>>62511285I wonder if there are subs where all the personnel live inside that breathable liquid
>>62511378I was talking about the submarine speed and dive speed. I never said that they can outrun torpedoes, the answer for the OP's question is evident. Size is a disadvantage for speed and max depth, submarines are large for obvious reasons: payload and range.
>>62511403that was just a movie anon
>>62511440Perfluorocarbon (PFC) liquid breathing is absolutely real, it's just difficult to get it to work due to being difficult to move in and out of the lungs. It can support basal breathing function, but anything above really light exercise will cause you to run out of oxygen as you can only breathe it so fast.
>>62511732Sorry. I got it wrong, they oxygen isn't the limit, but the removal of carbon dioxide that is hard due to it being liquid.It can be done, though.
>>62511403no this shit doesn't work except in science fiction and for comatose patients on ventilators. that fluid has way too much mass for the amount of oxygen it can actually carry and you cannot physically move it in and out of your lungs quickly enough to keep up with any kind of exertion.
>>62511275>submarines do not dive at 45mph. it is impossible for a submarine to outrun a torpedo.Soviet alfas could do 52mph and did outrun torpedos at the time, sparking development of US, german and british highspeed torpedos at the time.
>>62512078this could be pretty easily resolved with a pump for automated breathing tho, right?
>>62511285>Pressure hulls vs non pressure hulls.> Torpedos will just win, they don't need to protect a 1 atmosphere human tube.A torpedo has a pressure hull, otherwise it would sink like a rock.
>>62511732You can't keep your lungs filled with fluid for long periods of time whether it's oxygenated or not, you'll fuck up your alveoli
Lol how can anything of the NATO be not good and of the god of freedumb?
Submarines can outrun torpedoes the same way that Mach 1 fighter jets can outrun Mach 3 missiles.Torpedoes have limited range (and often to extend range, they have to slow down) especially lightweight torpedoes typically used for ASW.Submarines meanwhile, especially SSNs can sprint for long times.So if you detect a launch you can maneuver to get out of the engagement zone, changing a head on closure rate of say 60kn to a 20kn tail chase and cutting the effective range of the torpedo by 3x.This was part of why the fast soviet SSNs were practically impossible to engage for a long time, because the practical engagement zone against a deep 40knot submarine is tiny even with a faster and deeper torpedo.The flip side of course is that a 40 knot sub is practically blind from it's own noise and can be heard by everyone.>>62512928It's much easier to make a small pressurised volume than a big one, indeed in the modern day there exist special buoyancy foams for submersibles, that contain tiny and very weight efficient buoyant nodules.
>>62511182Is this in Bangor?
>>62515067Even today's torpedoes have pretty short ranges, especially the light 324 mm ones, especially at their top 45-50 kt speeds. Which is why they're primarily intended to be dropped right on top of the sub.
>>62511182You might be able to dive faster than a torpedo simply because a sub has buoyancy tanks and fins to the torpedo's fins but it's purely theoretical. Modern torpedoes also dive deeper than most subs. The original limitation was because nobody expected Russian Submarines to dive that deep.
>>62515419It's why we have SSGNs. You can engage surface ships much farther away with sub launched cruise missiles or AShMs than torpedoes. Especially cargo ships.
How the fuck hasn't someone figured out to turn torpedoes into unescapable death tubes yet like how A2A missiles has become just that?
>>62519448The navy doesn't like lithium-ion batteries and the submarine branch of the navy especially doesn't like lithium-ion batteries, because if they get wet they catch fire, and if they catch fire it's very difficult to put them out. Lead-acid batteries put some tight limits on torpedo performance, but at least there's no risk of it ending up like the Kursk.
>>62519448>A2A missiles are unescapableSource?also>TESTFUCKS
>>62511182Closest I imagine you could do is to dodge them by going above or bellow the thermal layer, assumming there's one, ro lose their sonar lock.
>>62512900And using that hemoglobin from beach worms that is super fucking efficient.
>>62517670Given that there are several flavors of tube-launched AShM/cruise missiles (and, amusingly, SAMs), I wonder why nobody thought about re-editing the old-school double-hull-layout cruiser sub design, with a shitton of external torpedo tubes, mounted either vertically or diagonally in the outer hull (to act as cheapo missile tubes).
>>62511403It works but the issue is that all the little crap in your mouth and nose ends up in your lungs and if you don't exhale all of it out once you stop breathing the oxygenated liquid you get lung infections like pneumonia. It has been tested extensively.
>>62519564>>The navy, which carries tons of explosives and fuels around, is afraid of carrying lithium batteries like in a Tesla because a Russian battery blew up so it's too dangerous. So seriously the US torpedoes use 1980s style batteries because the navy is still afraid of lithium batteries which are literally everywhere by now?
>>62521427No. The Mark 48 uses Otto II. Pretty sure the 54 does too.
>>62521427Nope, US torps are liquid-fuelled. Even the Mk 50 (which is apparently due to be withdrawn due to cost and low numbers produced), which does use lithium, uses it as a reaction catalyst for a steam microturbine. They don't use batteries for their torps.
>>62521427That anon is speaking out of his ass, high performance torpedoes do not use electric motors. The two best performing torpedo's in the US arsenal, are the Mk 50 and Mk 48 CBASS. Mk 50 is powered by oxidizing metallic lithium, Mk 48 uses a hypergolic mixture.
>>62511275>it is impossible for a submarine to outrun a torpedo.high-speed torpedoes were developed specifically because submarines could in fact outrun a torpedo>>62511378if you shoot a 40-knot torpedo at a target 10 miles away running at 30 knots, the torpedo is going to run out of fuel before it catches up
>>62521383look around the navies of the world, the ones which don't field submarine-launched anti-ship weapons believe that the torpedo is the king of anti-ship weapons, because there are fewer countermeasures and it can sink a ship much more reliably
>>62521518a target 10 miles away running 30 knots can't hear a torpedo coming, if the target is not heading directly away from you it's just an intercept equation.
>>62511275It's not about matching dive speed. It's about having a big enough advantage over the targets dive speed that once you've reached depth you've still got the range to chase down the target. Remember all targets start with a head start. Also not all torpedo engines performance equally at depth.
>>62521633>they built high-speed torpedoes for absolutely no reason, I am very smort
>>62511182guess what ADCAP means
>>62521546>because there are fewer countermeasures and it can sink a ship much more reliably True, but it has much shorter range, way lower speed, and the launch vehicle is kinda fucked after launching it, except in a handful situations.
>>62523803Advanced capabilityRefers to the internal processing on it. The mk48 ADCAP has some of the best processing going - but isn't as fast or as deep as other weapons.
>>62524710>it has much shorter range, way lower speed, and the launch vehicle is kinda fuckeda submarine is still currently a lot less detectable than an aircraft which helps mitigate all of that either way, one of the reasons neither the USN nor the RN have bothered much with antiship missiles until hypersonics came along is because they believed the SSN and its torpedoes is the premier antiship weapon of the seas
Alfa and other fast titanium submarines were borne out of a realization that they cannot compete in the quiet meta. They were never good enough, loud and blind. Maintenance nightmare too
>>62524871Ironically, the quiet meta is fucking dead now, due to improved filtering and sensor fusion.
>>62515067That's why the first step is not to be found
>>62528503Given the accuracy of modern sensors, that a lot harder than it used to be, 25-30 years ago.
>>62528503Torpedoes are loud since they are pretty much guaranteed to cavitate.The active guidance is also extremely loud and impossible to miss.
>>62530694>Torpedoes are loud since they are pretty much guaranteed to cavitate. That would somewhat depend on the torpedo type and speed. A steamer thundering at 60 kt? Yeah, even an old-ass Balkon would hear it. An elektrotorp in quiet mode at around 15 kt? A bit more difficult.
>>62519564>Lead-acid batteries put some tight limits on torpedo performancehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_zinc_batteryHowever they are still behind lithium.
>>62511182Here is the thing. There is two types of torpedoes 1. Chemical engine.2. Battery powered electric torpedoes.1 type doesn't like deep dive, with depth increases outside pressure and it becomes more difficult to push exhaust gases out. These torpedoes lose power , speed and range while diving so eventually deep diving submarine would out run such torpedo.2. Electric torpedoes are not affected by depth. But they may be slower and shorter range initial comparing to ICE torpedoes.
>>62531076>Silver_zinc That's the rechargeable version. Torpedoes don't use rechargeable cells for combat, only for practice. The combat cell is silver-oxide, with either zinc (Seehecht), or aluminum (Black Shark, F21) anode. >>62531092Elektrotorps tend to be larger (well, longer, since diameter is fixed) and heavier (batteries) than steamers, for the same warhead weight. However, they have a trick: due to their adjustable inverter, you can accelerate or decelerate them at will (or, at least, as long as the wire is linked). Steamers don't have throttles, because such a component is expensive and complex (extra point of failure), so they run at fixed speeds.
>>62531127>inverter Derp. DC-DC converter.
>>62519585>can do a 180 to kill anything behind you>pulls over 60g>25km range with a sustainer to provide extremelly high manouverabiliy even at the edges of its max range>IIR sensor>completely unflairable>DIRCM proof>datalink to be added in the next upgrade to it>intercept rate of OVER 100% in Ukriane, a single missile destroyed two russian cruise missilesYou're either outside its max range or you're dead.https://www.diehl.com/cms/files/Diehl_Defence_Brosch%C3%BCre2018_en.pdfhttps://en.missilery.info/missile/iris-t#compositionhttps://web.archive.org/web/20140330051726/http://www.diehl.com/en/diehl-defence/press-media/subjects-in-the-focus/iris-t-the-short-distance-missile-of-the-latest-generation.htmlhttps://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/ukraines_iris_t_takes_two_missiles_down_with_a_single_interceptor_neutralizes_45_threats_in_half_a_year-11584.html
>>62511378*The reported speed of the assumed fastest submarine in history is slower than the reported speeds of regular torpedoes
>>62521546Fag. As the documentary "Hunt for the Red October" shows, all you have to do is dump leaky green glow sticks and torpedoes lose their shit and attack the launching submarine.Q.E.D.
>>62532189The same reason why those missiles are at their peak performance high up.The lower you go, the denser it gets and water is much more dense by default.A torpedo with equivalent power to an A2A missile will be barely able to move. This is why most torpedoes are bigger because the issue isn't weight as much as having to propel itself through the water. Because hydrodynamics are everything and you want to have slim front profile, they are longer rather than wider, so they turn poorly since all that water will want to keep it straight on hitting the side.Also, because water is so dense most forms of detection are out, so you have to rely on sonar. Pretty much a century of progress have went into making sonar and sonar countermeasures, but water helps significantly with staying undetected, again, by being dense.
>>62532497Dumbass. That was debunked by the documentary "Hunter Killer". Real torpedo decoys look like helicopter toys spinning in the water.
>>62533152Thx anon, my retarded ass forgot how dense water was.
