Is this it?Do we finally have something cool to replace .22LR?https://www.americanhunter.org/content/review-winchester-21-sharp/
>$15-$20 for a box of 100yeah, nah, DOA
>>62543938Oh boy, let me rebarrel my guns for this one22lr preforms wonderfully in all platforms with Stingers, Punch, Minimag, the usual suspects. This won't last
While it does seem silly at first, it appears that Winchester’s thinking was that it’ll be useful for people who live in places like California, where lead projectiles are banned for hunting. Will it flop? If so, what’s possessing these companies to come out with these new calibers at a time when even well established calibers are still quite expensive? Or, are we just Luddites who will never move on from 100+ year old cartridges?
>>62543938On second thought, that all copper flat nose might do really well out of handguns on penetrationBe curious to see it shot out of snubby revolvers and the likeThanks for sharing this
The fact that this doesn't use heeled bullets is actually a disadvantage. One of the nice things about 22LRs is that most of them can also fire 22 Long, Shorts, & CB/BB caps.>>62543989You don't need a whole new cartridge to make lead-free projectiles. Lead-free .22LR is already a thing, and has been for many years.
It's a step in the right direction.We got rid of outdated heeled bullets, soft lead, and slow twists, three things which have been holding 22LR back since smokeless powder was invented.
>>62543938A centerfire 22lr would be far more innovative
>>62543938>https://www.americanhunter.org/content/review-winchester-21-sharp/They reinvented the .22 WRF (a short WMR).
>>62543989What's wrong with solid copper .22lr?
>>62544461Except that would be kind of neat since you could fire it in a .22 magnum rifle. This is smaller so you can't.
>>62543938Gay and DOA.
>>62544136I buy .22lr specifically because it is only good for short range and cheap af.
>>62543938Is Winchester aware of how irrelevant they are? If even Federal with all its market pull couldn't get 30 Super Carry a survivable position in the market place, why would Winchester which no-one cares about succeed with an offering that is unremarkable in everyway?
>>62544511Same. The low power is a feature for its intended purpose, it doesn't need to be any more powerful, there are tons of other rounds for that purpose. Where 22lr shines is being a cheap plinker. Emphasis on cheap. The moment you "improve" the cartridge with a centerfire primer or exotic bullet construction you have gotten rid of what makes it so desireable in the first place. .22LR is great specifically because it's cheap and weak. If you need something more reliable or more potent there's already a zillion other cartridges for that. More powerful centerfire .22 with non-heeled bullets exists already, it's called .22 Hornet.
>>62543938Looks like Winchester is badly missing the whole point..22LR has been around since 1887 and is dirt cheap. That means there are hundreds of manufacturers making the ammo and a massive legacy of old guns already in existence that shoot it. A new proprietary caliber will be starting from scratch with none of that for some minor benefit that just will not be enough for it to survive. Even if it is significantly better than .22LR in some way it just won't make sense to anybody looking at it when specialty loadings for .22LR can be made that functionally do everything .21 would do.>oh but it's lead freeAnd there is expensive lead-free .22LR that's still cheaper than the leaded .21 and the gun that fires it can go back to firing lead .22 when the more expensive ammo is not needed.>oh but it's not a heeled bulletThat just plain doesn't matter since it headspaces off the rim and guns have been able to work with it just fine for 130+ years. Plus backwards compatibility to .22 Long, Short and CB for whatever that is worth.
>>62543938the sad reality is that It could never be marketed to surpass .22 simply because .21 is a smaller number.
>>6254423322 hornet is a thing
This is giving me some 17hm2 vibes. Though I doubt it will even do that well.
>>62543938Can I buy a kit to shoot this out of my AR platform rifle? No?
>>62544689should just be a barrel swap from an AR-22
>>62544627.22 hornet is way hotter than even .22 magnum. Closest thing to a centerfire .22lr is probably a spicy .25 ACP.
>>62544511>>62544566Also you can carry or store hundreds of rounds in small space with little weight. You can pack 25+ rounds of .22lr in the same space as five 12 gauge shells.Best to have both though.
>>62544855>.25 ACPNot that you are advocating it but literally why?.22 WM or .32 ACP with solids, preferably flat nose/wadcutter.
>>62543938Yeah, I'm going to throw out $5000 worth of .22 guns and spend $12,000 to replace them with the latest meme boolit.Not.
>>62544882I don't see the point of either of those cartridges when .22lr and 9mm exist and are much cheaper. I don't see the point of a centerfire .22lr either, it wouldn't be cheap and then you might as well go with 9mm or .223.I like meme cartridges when it lets you fit a certain bullet or amount of muzzle energy or whatever into a specific packaging constraint, for example I really like .20 Vartarg and 7.5 FK, but most fudd cartridges like .22 WMR aren't interesting, they're just old and outdated and you might as well use .22lr, 9mm, .223, .308, or 12ga depending on what particular deprecated cartridge you're looking at.
>>62544893how do you even spend $5k on .22LR guns
>>62544115>One of the nice things about 22LRs is that most of them can also fire 22 Long, Shorts, & CB/BB caps.Realistically no one actually does this outside of a meme. L/S/CB/BB are just worse and more expensive cartridges.
>>62544955.22lr means smallest possible profile.I do not hate 9mm, I have multiple and that is what my gf carries but there are better options. I wanted her to get a .327 but she also was a complete noob so 9 made more sense.
>>625450633 tricked out 10/22s
>>62543938>replace .22LRWill never ever ever ever happen. Cope
>>62545063There's some boutique rifles that are like 3k for just the gun. Add Gucci glass and accessories and you easily get there
>>62543938If they can stick to the lower end of that pricing and drive it down fast with other manufacturers onboard, getting to 15cpr then 10cpr, that's not horrible for a competitor. 22lr is ultimately primarily about cost. Plenty of people would prefer not to avoid lead and yeah it's banned in some states with more coming, so there could be enough of a market, but driving the scaling enough is always going to be hard.>>62544233>A centerfire 22lr would be far more innovativeNo it wouldn't you fucking retard, you've been wrong and had it patiently explained to you why you're wrong over and over.
>>62545290>.22lr means smallest possible profile.No it doesn't. It means cheap.
>>62543938Oh boy something the same size, same velocity, and same performance as .22LR but twice the price. I can’t wait to get that. If you’re doing small caliber rimfire that’s not .22LR we already have .17 and .22mag which mog this and are the same price or cheaper. What’s the point? It’s not even centerfire which might have some merit.
>>62545265.22 long and .22 CB were pretty popular to shoot rabbits in your backyard if you lived in a suburb. They are very quiet from a longer barrel .22. Once CCI Quiets came out they aren’t really needed but still work well for that type of stuff.
>>62543948That's modern 22lr pricing lmao
>>62546474>If you’re doing small caliber rimfire that’s not .22LR we already have .17 and .22mag which mog this and are the same price or cheaper.17hmr is like 21-25cpr or more, 22mag 20cpr or more. If that "15 to 25" actually means "22-25 99% of the time, once in a blue moon cheaper" then yeah not much difference. But if that range is relatively conservative and it regularly starts at around 15, that'd be significantly cheaper.>>62546509>That's modern 22lr pricing lmaoMaybe in whatever god forsaken shithole you live in. In America though 22lr starts at 5.4 cpr for basic bitch magtech, remington or winchester.
>>62545063Volquartzen
>>62543938It's winchester.Even if it was a good round or a good idea (it isn't); it wouldn't be a good round. Winchester has proven they are incapable of making good ammunition; especially their rimfire.I mean, what's the point of this round (other than the bullet itself)? What is it going to do for me that I can't already do with 22lr or 22wmr? Why am I going to buy a new gun (or at the least rebarrel old guns) to run this cartridge? Seriously, why? What is the point? Who thought this was a good idea?This is dumber than .30 super carry, and that's a feat.
>>62546643> 17hmr is like 21-25cpr or moreYou can go on ammoseek right now and find .17 for 20cpr. That’s the same price. Even if it’s 15 vs 20 cpr you’re getting far more performance for a moderate increase in cost. If you don’t need the performance than you go with normal 22 for half the price of this new gay round.
>>62546864> Winchester has proven they are incapable of making good ammunition; especially their rimfire.Ain’t that the fucking truth. I made the mistake of buying their suppressor .22 ammo when it was on sale. Never do that. It’s terrible. It won’t feed in my 10/22 and won’t extract. In my savage it fires fine but it won’t extract. Maybe 1 in 10 will but the others you have to pry out with a knife or screwdriver. Thankfully my TX22 does run with it, but it’s inaccurate even for a pistol at moderately close ranges.
>>62546462Go fuck yourself you gay nigger. Centerfire 22lr would be the most innovative thing since smokeless powder. Do you work for Winchester? Fucking faggot.
>>62547056Why would anyone need centerfire .22? Current .22 is still extremely reliable. It’s popular because of cost and switching to centerfire .22 is going to be more expensive. Why would people change out all their .22LR guns to swap to an identical .22 centerfire for more money? What’s the advantage?
>>62547056>Centerfire 22lr would be the most innovative thing since smokeless powder.You're retarded.22lr is cheap because it is rimfire. Rimfire has dramatically fewer components and steps to produce, making it inherently cheaper for the same amount of material. This is why cartridges like 25 ACP failed to replace 22lr, and why the same would happen with any new "centerfire 22lr." .21 Sharp being rimfire is actually an advantage for it. It could easily be as cheap as 22lr if produced in the same quantities.
>>62547236How about .25 long rifle
>>62547236>22lr is cheap because it is rimfireThis. The entire rimfire cartridge case is cheaper to make than just a centerfire primer, nevermind the whole cartridge. Making it centerfire defeats the whole point. Now sure, there are some situations where rimfire is inadequate but there already are plenty of other cartridges for those roles.
>>62545063Vudoo v-22
>>62543938>25 acp but higher pressure, not semi rimmed and being remotely close to 22lr prices fucking never
>>62544535I dont get why federal only worked with smith and wesson instead of smith and wesson, glock, sig, fucking every major manufacturer. As unassailable as 9mm is, 22lr is infinitely moreso because of how dirt cheap it is. $15 for a box of 50? You can get 10 times the 22lr for that price, not to mention basically every manufacturer has multiple guns chambered in 22lr
OK hear me out, small game round: .17 short.
>>62547056>Go fuck yourself you gay nigger. Centerfire 22lr would be the most innovative thing since smokeless powder. >HAY GUIZ LETS MAKE A NEW (SAME AS OTHERS) ROUND WITH A PRIMER THAT COSTS MORE THEN AN ENTIRE 22LR BULLET SO INNOVATIVE WILL TOTALLY REPLACE 22LRyeah>Do you work for Winchester?Do you own any guns?
>>62543938Bring back .25 and make a 40 rounder on a stock that barely sticks out
>>62543938>no we HAVE to make it incompatible with 22LR barrels to make it jacketed bro you don't get it>meanwhile at WWII RemingtonI get not having to make the bullets heeled but it's going to be a fucking mess. Thank god I don't work at Cabelas having to explain why that $20 box of ammo someone bought last week won't group worth a shit.>dude look please buy our turkshit rifle it comes in future unobtanium!Lol if I ever want to try it I'm waiting for a 10/22 barrel. Also, 34gr, 1500fps. Except for the bullet choice why would I buy this over .22 Mag? Especially considering I've heard great things about CCI's bullet designs? Unless I'm a Califuggyin that is.>>62544535And they make some of the worst bulk 22 I've ever shot lol. I have heard they may have gotten screwed by DuPont on powder quality at one point but god damn if a little QC wouldn't go a long way.>>62545063 see: >>62545298
>>62547334Damn, does he seduce customers with that rack?
>>625463362mm Kolibri will do so
>>62543938This will likely flop for Winchester.>same shell casing as 22LR>people WILL shoot this out of a regular .22>accuracy will not only suck, but swallow>fags will then bitch and moan to Winchester about it.21 Sharp doesn't address any need that can't be covered by a lead-free 22LR. Or more velocity with lead or lead-core bullets from 22 WMR, 17 HMR or 22 Hornet.
>>62543989>list muzzle velocity>don't list barrel lengthWhy are they like this?
>>62543938I love seeing new stuff but .17hm2 is already here. It exists already and this .21 sharp seems to be trying to do exactly what .17hm2 already did.
>>62543938Does .22LR have a STANAG with NATO as a training cartridge? Because the way I see it, the only way anyone is competing with .22LR at this point is to at the very least receive a STANAG so that it doesn't drop off the face of the Earth after 2 years.
What’s the point? It seems to be a 22lr case but without a heeled bullet. Is there some problem with heeled bullets?Tbh a centerfire 22 with several standards of allowable bullet length would be pretty cool. They’d be rimless and so would stack just fine in double- and quad-stack magazines. They’d also be capable of higher pressures. And with variable bullet length, you could have one short and light bullet for pistols, and another long and super fine bullet (light or heavy) for rifles. One that would retain its (albeit diminutive) energy at range. Makes the most of a tiny powder charge. Imagine ultra heavy expanding 110+gr subs making like 250ft*lbs. pretty sick.Dunno if primers can be made that small for the case head, but if not, 25acp is centerfire so maybe just improve on that.
>>62543938>>62543989this is the >we need better 12 gauge shotshells with no rim retardation. Can I put it in my existing .22 lr guns? if the answer is no then fuck off, this will never replace .22lr. Have fun fighting for market share on the retard bus with .22 win mag, .22 hornet, .17hmr and .17hm2
>>62553148Lying by omission
>>62543955>Non-toxic bulletIsn't that an oxymoron or something? Or is it for the people who load their mag then lick their fingers or something?
>>62544480Standard .22 lr twist rate is too slow for copper/zinc bullets, it causes poor accuracy.If you get a .22 lr barrel with faster twist rate, the accuracy will be poor with normal lead bullets.With new "standard" in SAAMI/CIP with new caliber makes it so that you have set limits for chamber and barrel dimensions so you can do stuff like 21 sharp, and all ammunition you buy from store will somewhat work in a gun in that caliber.
>>62556985I think its for people who are scared of getting lead in the meat they intend to eat
>>62544535>even Federal with all its market pull couldn't get 30 Super Carry a survivable position in the marketThis. Hell, .22tcm didn't even get a hold in the market. Which is a shame. That's a neat little cartridge.
>>62557517People are dumb ninnies
>>62557422Instead of buying a whole new gun to shoot this meme cartridge that won't be around in six months, why not buy a 1:9 or whatever .22 barrel for copper longbois?>If you get a .22 lr barrel with faster twist rate, the accuracy will be poor with normal lead bullets.No it won't, that's not how it works. Too little twist and the bullet isn't stabilized, too much twist and the bullet explodes. You don't destabilize a bullet by spinning it faster.
>>6255815622TCM didn't get a hold because the creator is Jewish and won't standardize it with SAAMI, and RIA is the only manufacturer willing to work with him.
>>62558630This. I mean, dunno if it would have stood a chance anyway for various reasons, but these days any cartridge that you look up and see>Proprietaryis an insta-close page and move on moment. In a world of endless competitive cartridges and fear of lock in and investment fucking nobody is going to touch anything not standardized and free.
>>62546956>That’s the same priceAs 22mag and 21sharp. Not .22lr.>>62547056>Centerfire 22lr would be the most innovative thing since smokeless powder.Centerfire .22lr would break component commonality WAY fucking harder than 21 sharp will. It would require a new primer size. A new bore is nothing, there's dozens of them, a new primer diameter would fuck buyers hard eventually.Also the production cost of a .22lr case is barely more than a primer, it basically is a primer which you can pour powder into. It's a single-use item, completely uneconomical to reload.>>62549300>>meanwhile at WWII RemingtonYou're posting a picture of vintage ammo because it wasn't economical. There are valid arguments for 21sharp so long as it out-performs match .22lr at the same price, which is what I think Winchester will try to do.
>>62547575Vista Outdoors could only afford to bribe one large company into making anything chambered in their stupid 30SC cartridge, they chose S&W because 'Murica, it was a solid choice, but it still wasn't enough to keep that useless cartridge from flopping.
>>6256072522LR with FMJ bullets were only made by Remington for military use and the surplus was sold off; Rem never made it commercially IIRC. That doesn't mean it couldn't be done again; there are autists loading their own 22LR FMJ for long range using standard 22LR rifles, the idea just needs someone big to start doing the same commercially. 21 Sharp? I mean sure it might be good for match use, especially longer range, I can't argue there; maybe it'll find a niche if and only if it's allowed to be used in these competitions. But 21 Sharp replacing regular 22LR use, even hunting and being a better idea economically than 22LR FMJ? Maybe if they're using a standard commercially available bullet size hence the .21 cal?
>>62560808Even if you go major autist getting jacketed/solids to work in .22lr, the heel is and always will be just aerodynamically shit.The other way to go, which I'm surprised no-one in this thread has mentioned, would be to re-commercialize .22ILARCO. Just abandon the .278 headstamp for the .300 used in the WRF/WMR.I know ILARCO is nominally .294 on wikipedia but as is usual the fudd who measured his ammo doesn't know what a standard is. It is literally the same brass cut down.
>>62561022The proper way to go is 4.6x28 MKR>.22 magnum cartridge with a straight taper to .18 >Uses a standard .22 WMR chamber in a special .18 caliber barrel>Muzzle energy closer to a .357 carbine than a rimfire
>>62561071I heard that was the same line of thought they had with .30SC
>>62561022You know why Winchester didn't do 22 ILARCO? You know why no one mentioned it? Because pic
>>62543938Honestly when I first heard of it I was thinking this was going to be another fuck stupid attempt at introducing a rimfire cartridge at 9mm prices intended to compete with .22lr thereby completely missing the point. Turns out it's apparently just a different projectile design while using .22lr brass to get away from heeled bullets. I could see it catching on to some degree if they can get the pricing to overlap with mid range .22lr loads, say 10 or so cpr
>>62561071>>Muzzle energy closer to a .357 carbine than a rimfireThat's just nonsense. There are already .172 and .224 versions of the case, it doesn't magically double in energy at 18.>>62561109It's just 22 magnum shortened to .22lr OAL firing the same exact bullets, from the same headstamps, using the same barrel blanks. Literally the only new thing which would have to be made is the reamer. You could even shoot it in .22mag chambers.That image is way more applicable to 21sharp than 22ILARCO.
>>62561120>I could see it catching on to some degree if they can get the pricing to overlap with mid range .22lr loads, say 10 or so cprBefore it can do that kind of scale it has to break into the competitive rimfire scene, which means high-end target ammo.
>>62561268That's exactly the point I was making; 21 sharp is the 10th+ commercial rimfire and will likely fall into unobtanium/wildcat territory where it'll be exceedingly hard to find ammo loaded for it, maybe Aguila or PPU will load it once a year (ie. Aguila's availability of 5mm Mag), or you'll have to load it yourself (lol). No company ever wants to re-introduce old thing and give it another shot no matter how much ammo technology has advanced since then nor will they often even try to standardize an already existing wildcat; let's try totally-new-thing that will be future unobtanium, making the problem even worse.
>>62561337It is the SAME case, SAME chamber, SAME powder weights. You could literally take charged .22lr cases and stick the .2105 bullet in them. Same. Object. Holy shit there's no speaking to you people, also:>5mm rimfireUses a LARGER .325 rimmed case which doesn't fit on the .300 bolt face. Hence doesn't fit in rimfire magazines and rifles, which are all built to accommodate the .300 rim. .22lr fits in these because .278 is a LOWER number than .300, not a HIGHER number like .325.The fact is that BOTH 22ILARCO and 21sharp are valid paths towards better performance from the sub-1.000" rimfire class of cartridges. I'm sure the economics of the case itself made the decision for Winchester, despite the fact that the WMR/WRF are both their own design and it would simplify the cartridge family.
>>62561402If there is no demand there won't be ammo production. This has been seen with multiple attempts at new rimfires. The tried and true is hard to displace.There will be a couple new rifles made for this one, they won't sell well, and ammo will become an item produced every few years. It doesn't matter what the components are if the demand doesn't exist.
>>62561433The only way I can see demand not existing is if the various rimfire circuits don't allow it to compete directly with .22lr. If it gets to share a class, it's in. And there's no reason it shouldn't share a class because the Stinger case is class compliant.
>>62561433>If there is no demand there won't be ammo production.There already is ammo production, they've been making 21sharp brass for 127 years.
>>62561518There's already lead free accurate .22lr. There is not likely to be any demand for a new cartridge.>>62561531How often is WRF made? Uses the same brass as WMR yet is fucking dead.
>>62561548>Uses the same brass as WMRNo it doesn't, they do runs of WRF brass. They share a base, not brass.21sharp brass is literally the most abundant brass on the planet and will never stop being made. It takes zero machining or other production steps to convert 21sharp cartridge cases into .22lr cartridge cases. They are the same exact object.
>>62561268>There are already .172 and .224 versions of the case, it doesn't magically double in energy at 18.It does when you load it to 60,000 psi.>how does it not blow out the case at that pressure?I honestly could not even begin to answer this. I assume it has something to do with using the straight walled WMR chamber for the heavily tapered MKR cartridge, but that just opens up more questions. Apparently they made working prototypes though.
>>62561640>It does when you load it to 60,000 psi.You don't load rimfire brass to 60,000 psi. The touch-hole of a centerfire case serves to reduce the pressure which blows back into the primer, which is made of softer brass than the rest of the case. The primer is also tightly supported by the bolt and firing pin in case of over-pressureRimfire cases are made entirely of this soft brass, there is no pressure-reducing touch hole, and the rim is nowhere near as supported as a centerfire primer.It either does just blow out, or they mechanically supported it in a test breech in a manner completely impractical in real firearms.
>>62561611And demand will dictate that it gets loaded into .22LR instead of the .21.Again IF THERE IS NO DEMAND THEN IT WILL NOT BE MADE.This is an answer in search of a question and will not last.
>>62561732>This is an answer in search of a questionThis is the most empty clever-sounding thing people always blurt out when any new cartridge is announced. It doesn't actually mean anything, if you take a few seconds to think about it.But in the case of .22lr it's just plain wrong on the premise, people have always been trying to improve it, and some of the improvements have stuck.
>>62543948you could use the cheaper for plinkand the copper heads for selfdefense
>>62561668Okay, I went and found the proposal. It's only about 50% higher pressure than WMR, not 2.5x. It has a cylindrical chamber (presumably the same as or very similar to the WMR chamber) for the tapered cartridge, which allows the brass to extrude into the chamber and throat rather than blow out the primer. It requires a locked breach, as blowback actions caused case head separation at only a small increase over nominal WMR pressures.https://www.lmollc.com/archive/detail.arc.entry.cfm?arcid=6149
>>62543938Where can i buy this stuff? looks cool.
>>62561518>The only way I can see demand not existingYou have autism. >Millions of people own .22lr guns. >Most don't give a shit and buy the bucket o' bullets and plink in the backyard or murder tree rats. >Nobody is gonna buy enough of this faggy boutique .21 for ammo companies to consider it worthwhile to keep up production when they could instead pump out .22lr that will actually sell
>>62553249.17 hmr is a good round and is not on the retard bus. Maybe is the weird kid bullied on the bus but he should still be there
>>62556985Its likely to adhere to some states that have lead-free only ammo to be used for hunting and in some instances even target shooting.
>>62563725>ULR/NRL competitors, who are constantly shortening or lengthening 6mm cartridges, won't spring for a barrel and some ammo even if it gives them an edgeOK buddy.
>>62543989There's always someone out there who will try out a new round. We can have new things and old things at the same time. There's a dude on /hg/ who's taking the plunge into .30 Super Carry just for the heck of it. They chamber a decent pistol in this I might give it a go. Just for shits and giggles and shooting fun, no other reason to live and consume is necessary.
>>62564847If that's the target market, why are there no heavy turned copper subs available?
>>62543938People already buy .22mag for better performance or even 5.7>>62543948Yep .22mag is cheaper tooFor that price i'd better change to 5.7
>>62564889>>62560808it's niche and only available as bullets for a reloading setup (yes, you can buy new primed 22LR cases)
>>62564889>why are there no heavy turned copper subs available?There are. Why do you speak about something you know nothing about? At least do a quick internet search before you make an assertion, retard.
>>62561402DOA
>>62543938>>62543938This will probably take off in the UK and some European countries, where they're banning lead from shooting ranges entirely. Pretty fucking dumb because they're not banning leaded primer compound, which is the source of most lead in shooter's blood.As for the US, if CZ come out with barrels for the 457 then it will probably become somewhat popular, if they don't it won't. Since it's just a bullet change Winchester can spin up ammo pretty easily.
>>62560725>There are valid arguments for 21sharp so long as it out-performs match .22lr at the same price, which is what I think Winchester will try to do.They can try. Zero chance they do. They can’t even make normal quality .22 LR. There’s no way they can make ammo up to match quality .22 in a new caliber AND not be any more expensive.
>>62561071>Muzzle energy closer to a .357 carbine than a rimfireIt has 700+ ft lbs of energy? Doubt that. Can you post more on this 4.6x28? I can’t find anything when googling.
>>62561611>and will never stop being made. It takes zero machining or other production steps to convert 21sharp cartridge cases into .22lr cartridge cases. They are the same exact object.yes but what’s the point? Why would anyone want .21 sharp?
>>62566676It's not hard to make better bullets when you don't have to make them skirted.Also any other company which makes 22lr can either make their own .2105s or buy bullets from Winchester. Because from a production standpoint it literally is just another .22lr with a different bullet in it. Nothing changes except the bullet.
>>62561640> It does when you load it to 60,000 psi.Why the fuck would you want that in a rimfire?
>>62566699>>62566867See >>62561789
>>62566320Not likely.There's already lead free .22LR.
>>62561772Then enlighten us oh wise one, what is the improvement this offers?
>>62566110That's a .22 bullet.
>>62566802> It's not hard to make better bullets when you don't have to make them skirted.Ok. And what do these “better bullets” do that is impossible with current .22LR?> Because from a production standpoint it literally is just another .22lr with a different bullet in it. Nothing changes except the bullet.In the case of Winchester, that’s exactly their problem. Their rimfire ammo sucks ass. It literally won’t extract from my savage bolt action. I’m not alone in this problem.
>>62566959>“better bullets”Why did you put this in quotes?The rest is just you not being able to read so I won't reply to it.>>62566903Read the articles about it.
>>62543989>Or, are we just Luddites who will never move on from 100+ year old cartridges?We keep what works9mm is older than 100, but it works just fine so there is no reason to replace it22lr is old as hell, but it works great for target shooting and varmint hunting so there is no need to replace itNobody uses 32 rimfire or other rimfire cartridges anymore because rimfire sucks unless it’s in really small stuff38/200 was dropped because it’s useless and nobody makes anything in 44-40 anymore, but people still use 38 special and 45 Colt which is just about as old because they’re finePeople use plenty of new calibers when they actually provide benefits like for precision rifle shooting ex 17HMR, 6.5 Creedmoor, just not in pistols where the “benefit” is only theoretical >>62543955>Looks dimensionally identical >>62543989>stats are pretty much identical depending on 22lr and rifle usedWait… what exactly is the point?
>>62567105The point is hype.Get as many people exicted as possible and sell as many rifles as they can over the next 5 years before abandoning it.There's been lead free .22lr for a while noe for the ban states. There's aready quite accurate .22 ammo. Theres jacketed HP .22 as well.Everything this rounds claims to do is already done for cheaper.Even the gun writers are asking why
>>62567105>Looks dimensionally identicalIt is, the difference is just that the bullet is the same size as the inside diameter of the case (like everything other than .22lr) instead of the same size as the outside diameter of the case (like .22lr)
>>62567172>Even the gun writers are asking whyThese gun writers come to me and they're asking why, they don't know why. Winchester isn't telling them why and it's a disgrace. These guys, I know em, smart guys, the smartest...and Winchester is making this ammunition and...not saying why. We can't let this happen folks, we need to shoot twenty-two long rifle, they call it long but it's pretty small, comes in handguns even though it says rifle. Not just rifle, LONG rifle. Well that's truth in advertising as they say.
>>62543938>Do we finally have something cool to replace .22LR?No, but since it uses the exact same case it's the least threatening "rival" cartridge ever. It'll probably be a good target cartridge if a company other than winchester loads for it.
>>62566890>There's already lead free .22LR.And it's not great. And jacketed .22LR is expensive because they need more stages to form the jacket than in conventional non-heeled designs.
>>62543989>>62543938>Or, are we just Luddites who will never move on from 100+ year old cartridges?we will unironically be using .22lr and 12 gauge on mars in 400 years. unless someone makes a round radically cheaper than .22lr or somehow massively better than current rimmed 12 gauge shells nothing is going to do the job of (for .22lr) being cheap or (for 12 gauge) breaking clays and killing birds well enough to justify losing backwards compatibility on all the fucking guns currently in circulation. can this round do some things better than .22lr. yeah, probably but so can .17 hmr and the only people buying .17 hmr are people who have a specific need for .17 hmr.
>>62566996Two complete non answers. Exactly as I expected. If you can’t answer what it does better that tells everyone everything they need to know. It’s not better. It’s the same diameter bullet of the same weight moving at the same speeds. There’s nothing it can do .22LR can’t. There’s already lead free .22, already .22 solids, already match quality .22. Winchester rimfire sucks ass and they won’t improve on any of the former.
>>62568639> jacketed .22LR is expensive Compared to exposed lead or plates .22LR. Not expensive compared to anything else or to this new .21 sharp bullshit
>>62568712Fucking read the articles you lazy cretin.>>62568731>130 year old thing is cheaper than 130 hour old thingInsightful stuff. Also CCI uppercut, the only jacketed .22lr loading, is 28cpr. And it was universally panned by reviewers.Maybe some day someone will make a good, cheap, jacketed .22lr, hasn't happened yet.
>>62566959NTA but it's not even extraction it's also consistency of powder load and in general just shitty accuracy. Their more premium stuff seems fine-ish but I certainly don't want to use them over almost anyone else.
>>62568864You can’t name a single manner in which this is better. Go ahead, prove me wrong>hurr durr just read the articlesYou continually posting that is both a deflection and takes more work than just answering. Also there are press releases. There aren’t reviews and analysis so you are wrong once again. Are you on Winchester’s marketing team? Why are you such a dumb nigger?
>>62568989I agree. My issues have been with their 45gr super suppressed. Which has accuracy and powder charge issues you mentioned, as well as the extraction problem.
>>62543938Maybe it could replace .17 hmr or .22 wmr, there's no possible replacement for .22 lr with the current technology
>>62569873It won’t replace either of those. It doesn’t have the power
>>62569873.22 lr with a smaller bullet can't replace .22 wmr.
>>62570140>>62570174It's slower? Then it's only function will be to make the 3 guns chambered in this shit somewhat collectible one day
>>62543938Winchester .22lr is trash and has always been trash and nobody can convince me otherwise. It's garbage .22lr, maybe 30% out of 100 misfires along with being absolutely filthy. It's some of the worst .22 you can buy. For how cheap .22 is just buy the best quality. I've been shooting .22lr for 20 years and tried Winchester many, many, many, many times and it has never failed to be trash.
>>62567414Is that you, Donald?
>>62570308It’s literally a .22LR case, .22LR pressures, and .22LR grain weights. It will be the exact same performance.
>>62569554>You can’t name a single manner in which this is better.NTA. Non-heeled bullets have superior ballistic coefficient and are more accurate due to this and improved aerodynamics.
>>62571170Doesn't matter for the ranges involved.
I will probably get one. It wont replace any of my 22's I just like shooting new stuff. Same reason I got a 17 HMR. They can be fun to play with but if theres something in my wifes garden or I just want to go shoot a rabbit. I will probably grab a .22
>>62543938Falling for meme caliber scams is up there with the dumbest shit you can do.
>>62571170>Non-heeled bullets have superior ballistic coefficientMeaningless at the speeds and distances for a .22. Seriously go run a generic 40gr .22LR through a ballistic calculator and then re-run with the BC cranked up. It won’t matter. A 40gr with a 50 yard zero is a 1/2” better at 100 and 1” better at 150 with a 50% better BC. It’s still a foot and half of drop at 150. It doesn’t matter. >and are more accurate due to thisLol not with Winchester ammo
>>62571757I’ve been shitting on it this whole thread, rightfully so, but I will probably buy a box of ammo. Not to shoot but for a novelty in 20-30 years
>>62569554I'll talk about some advantages not mentioned in the articles, for the ones in the articles you'll have to read them.>bullet design freedomBecause there's no heel and skirt taking up weight and length, there's far more freedom to tune how supported the tip is, which means you can engineer in more consistent expansion, or better ballistic coefficients, or better penetration etc. You can build hollowpoints which expand down to lower velocities, but don't break up at higher velocities.>better chamber designBecause the bullet itself isn't doing the job of completing the chamber, throat design is improved, and freebore can be more precisely tuned by rifle manufacturers. This means cheaper guns in particular can be more consistent across ammo types, instead of your gun liking certain brands/weights/speed ranges but not others. It also makes "target" chambers unnecessary, so there won't be a situation like with the Browning T-bolt where it can't chamber certain ammo. Chamber design has always been a limitation of .22lr more than other cartridges.>>62571178It always matters. BC doesn't just determine drop, it also affects wind drift and energy on target. When you're aiming at a rabbit's head wind drift matters, when you're shooting 170fpe at marginal game like fox energy matters. The press guys who have shot it were ground-hogging at 150 yards.
>>62573101>Lol not with Winchester ammoThat we can agree on, but there's nothing stopping better brands from buying in bullets or making their own, because from a manufacturing perspective there's no difference in the two.
>>62573496You type like a corporate faggot. Who at Winchester green lit you shilling here?>there's far more freedom to tune how supported the tip is, which means you can engineer in more consistent expansionNot a current issue and you still have the same problem of total energy and penetration >or better ballistic coefficientsSee above >or better penetrationBetter than federal punch? And for what? For carry there are already rounds that meet the 12” minimum. For hunting, rifles don’t have penetration issues or use a bigger gun if it’s bigger game. Yesterday I watched someone one shot a hog with a .22 and federal punch.>You can build hollowpoints which expand down to lower velocitiesYou don’t want that because of penetration concerns >but don't break up at higher velocities.Not a current problem. Show me a .22LR that struggles with the expand at low velocities and breaking up at high velocities. >instead of your gun liking certain brands/weights/speed ranges but not others.Bullshit. This exists with centerfire rifles. >It also makes "target" chambers unnecessaryAlso bullshit. Target chambers will be for people who want max accuracy. Like they currently are. >affects wind drift and energy on targePost ballistic tables. No really, post them. >The press guys who have shot it were ground-hogging at 150 yards.You can do that with .22LR currently.
>>62543938.22TCM is all that matters.
>>62568864>>62573496>stops replying at 4:20>starts replying at 8:35Yep it’s a paid shill
>>62561782.22 lr is one of those cartridges that practically needs full auto to be any good in a fight.
>>62573992>Not a current issue and you still have the same problem of total energy and penetrationNon-sequitur. I wasn't describing an issue, I was outlining how more performance can be engineered into the projectiles when the .22's vestigial profile is done away with.>You don’t want [low speed expansion] because of penetration concernsYou don't shoot every bullet, at everything, at identical ranges. You apparently didn't notice that between each quality I put the word "or" not "and", although BC is achievable with either because the shape is just plain better.>Show me a .22LR that struggles with the expand at low velocities and breaking up at high velocities.Every high velocity .22 without exception struggles to expand at range. The reason for this is because the .225 diameter portion of the body is the strongest part of the bullet, so you can't have that separating on impact or the bullet will come apart. The amount of weakness you can engineer into the tip is limited by the fact that the heel is not a structural part of the bullet, it's just what holds it in the case.>Bullshit. This exists with centerfire rifles.You can make pretty much every bullet weight which your twist allows shoot in your rifle if the loading is correct, not so with .22 because the weight and jump are related, because again that body is hard stopped against the case mouth.>Also bullshit. Target chambers will be for people who want max accuracy. Like they currently are.I said "target", you repeated back "target" but I think you interpreted it as "match" because a target chamber actually means something distinct in the .22 world. Some target chambers literally do not take some .22lr loadings. This is because jump is fixed at particular bullet weights.Bottom line: lead weighs what it weighs, and in .22lr more weight is more bullet protrusion, and more bullet protrusion requires more freebore just to chamber because the bullet is HARD STOPPED against the case mouth.
>>62574397> I wasn't describing an issueAbout time you admit this doesn’t do anything over existing .22LR
>>62574207Pest control?
>buy .21 Sharps barrel>run taper pin reamer into throat>langsford extruder at homeYeah, I'm okay with this development.
>>62575558Thanks for contesting none, zero, of the advantages which have now been articulated to you.
>>62571178>>62573101You clearly don't know about 22lr ELR shooting. I suggest you stop posting, you're out of your league.
>>62575990You didn't actually articulate any.
>>62576016Why do zero popular centerfire cartridges use a heeled bullet?
>>62576014>autistic, small shooting leagues can carry a cartridge that’s challenging the most popular round on earth>the original point>your headYou can find extreme situations that it does matter. This applies to 0.0001% of rimfire shooters and does not matter to the market. Also the desire and challenge is to use a suboptimal cartridge to shoot super far. If you change the cartridge and change the bullet, just go centerfire.
>>62575990I don’t need to. They don’t exist you niggerfaggot. Now can you say anything that doesn’t sound directly off a press release. Call me a name, say I’m the faggot. Something that shows you aren’t the literal corporate shill you are.
>>62576077Why do you suck cocks for a living?
>>62544699slow down, turbo. some of us are on hourly, not salary
>>62576251well I'm not getting payed at all, so I don't faff about
>>62553235Perhaps there is a way to incorporate a variable bolt seated position, as well as a variable magazine position, to change between the bullet types, assuming we have some standardized cartridge length that will fit the range of bullet head designs
>>62576077>quits responding at night >againTell your bosses they are retarded
>>62575890Just wanted to say thanks for sharing that Anon.That is a damn nifty thing I had never heard about, and am glad I learned of it.
>>62561611>21sharp brass is literally the most abundant brass on the planet and will never stop being made.wut?
>>62578549It's the same brass as .22lr, they just got rid of the tumor on the bullet.
>>62576102>autistic, small shooting leagues can carry a cartridgeCorrect. I accept your concession.
>>62578721>brags about missing the point>twiceWhatever helps you sleep at night champ
>>62580225>ur missing teh pointlmao, you can just admit you didn't know about rimfire ELR instead continuing to embarrass yourself
>>62580489No I’m more than aware of it. I’m also aware of the tiny tiny fraction they are compared to the rimfire market. If they were the intended audience, and they are enough to keep a new cartridge afloat by themselves, why weren’t they mentioned or consulted at all by Winchester? Why isn’t it marketed specifically to that crowd?You can’t answer with valid reason. Because Winchester is dumb for doing this and for some reason you’re trying to rationalize a dumb decision.
>>62580489Not him, but why does ELR keep coming up? There are no .21 bullets suitable for ELR, you're better off with the old heeled .22.
>>62580991Because he’s full of shit and people are grasping at straws to justify this rather than admit it’s stupid.
Don't die, thread! Wagie will get fired if he can't post in it tomorrow morning.
>>62575565Union busting, actually. So yes.
>>62546643>In America though 22lr starts at 5.4 cpr for basic bitch magtech, remington or winchester.lol wat, in Europe (well, in my tiny heavenly part of Europe) 22lr is literally 0.07 cpr for shitters and 0.16 for decent stuff, that's for boxes of 50. Less if you buy more.
>>62585238>3 cents per brickThere's no fucking way.
I hate 22LR for one reason and one reason alone:high lead exposure. whether its perceived or actual I am not sure.I prefer shooting FMJ rounds, and when possible, TMJ is even better.As far as I can tell, there are no 22LR jacketed rounds; only "copper washed" which does not inspire confidence.22 Mag is good, but super common firearms like the 10/22 and little blowback pistols cant handle the increased pressures.17 HM2 is good too but why are there no 10/22s chambered in this? or if they are, everyone questions their safety.15 to 20c a round is high for a 22LR replacement, but with gaining popularity prices would surely come down.The only real advantage 22LR has is ubiquity.I really would love to own a ruger "10/21" and would considering converting my little Beretta Tomcat.
>>62585309>22 Mag is good, but super common firearms like the 10/22 and little blowback pistols cant handle the increased pressures.the 10/22 magnoum was a thing that wasnt successful. its not cant handle it was a different gun>17 HM2 is good too but why are there no 10/22s chambered in this? or if they are, everyone questions their safety.17hmr was a fuckup where the bullets they said they were going to produce werent what actually got produced. so every company making a 17hmr semi made it for a bullet spec that didnt exist. so the guns come out and are dangerously unsafe with recalls across the board. all the companies who youd think would make a 22lr semi made a 17hrm and all of them had to take losses on it.theres a couple fairly recent(last 10 years) 17 hmr semiautos that actually work.
>>62585273Europeans are stupid and don't understand any arbitrary standard of measure. CPR means nothing to him.
>>62585273Feel free to check on the internet. .22lr has always been dirty cheap here, and when you guys whined about empty shelves and heightened prices we didn't really notice any difference.>>62585353Are you jealous, retarded, or both?
>>62585383Please send me a link to ammo that's 1400 rounds per dollar. I'll buy a few pallets.
>>62585348>17hmrHM2 not HMR.HMR is even higher pressure then 22 Mag.HM2 is higher pressure than 22LR but lower than 22 Magpressure:17 HMR > 22 Mag > 17 HM2 > 22LR
>>62585419>>62585348and just cuz I realize looking up the pressure rating of 22 Mag vs 17 HMR shows 22 Mag is actually slightly higher...I might be wrong, but I think since 17 HMR is about the same pressure but a smaller diameter bullet, that blowback firearms in 17 HMR need a larger bolt mass than 22 Mag.
>>62585428Bolt thrust is going to be lower for 17 HMR because it's lower pressure over the same bolt face. Then again, the bottleneck increases bolt thrust so that might bring it back up. Maybe that's why it's lower pressure, so you don't have to fuck around with stuff to make it work in blowback actions.
>>62585451>>62585428actually i was right the first time, im an idiot: 22 mag is 24k psi17 hmr is 26k psi
>>62543938Does it need wax like .22? Probably not right?
>>62545265I swear the summer camp I used to work for was the largest buyer of 22 short in the South. Probably went through 14,000 rounds over each summer, and a couple thousand more during the fall and spring weekends. Pretty sure the walmart kept them stocked just for us.
