without any racism, what was really their biggest problem during the war? was it morale? Their army was starving so soldiers surrendered.
>>62730538WW1 mentality generals and bad vehicles, mostly. Italy's pitiful industry didn't help either.244n
>>62730543I thought there ww1 generals had a Napoleonic mentality.
They weren't ready.
>>62730538Their problem was getting into the war.
>>62730538picrel might’ve played a part
>>62730538They had more Battle Experience than Germany, France and the British by the time war broke out. They had no excuse.
>>62730538Perpetual lust for black pussyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWxJWQSKP-g
>>62730538Hitler did not give them the materials listed in the Lista del molibdeno
>>62730560what would have happened if they found the oil in Libya?
>>62730538Randomly clicked on this thread so you'll get an indepth reply because I want to waste time.The problems of Fascist Italy are multifaceted and deep. Essentially, Fascist Italy had political, cultural, economical and social problems that pretty much hampered their war making capabilities.Political, because Fascist Italy was a messy bunch of conflicting interests. Mussolini was no Stalin: he had to constantly contend with particular interests (the King,t he Church, the industrialists) and his supporters and allies were often yes-men more focused on easy advancement than tangible results. This made the overall strategy terrible, Italy squandered forces in harebrained campaigns and ended up going from parallel wars that embarrassingly failed to pretty much begging the German to save them or following the German in operations that were useless for Italy. Remember that Fascism did not fall because the civilian population rebelled or something, it fell because the Fascist themselves deposed Mussolini in an attempt to save their own asses. Dysfunctional politics make for dysfunctional campaign strategy, if you want to go in-depth simply read about the planning for Greece.Cultural, because Italy has not been a warrior kultur for centuries. The reunification and WW1 had essentially been won on the backs of allies (Austria collapsed by itself in WW1 and still managed to bloody the Italians even when starving and under equipped). Italian officer culture was toxic and hidebound, common soldiers were seen as cattle. Morale collapsed mainly thanks to constant military defeats and humiliations, even more after seeing the impressive superiority in war material of the Allies. Courage does not make up for steel. Plus Italians never really gave a shit about the government, it's all about their hometown in the end. Politically motivated troops in Fascist Italy (the MSVN, their equivalent of the SS) never went through SA style cleanups and so performed poorly.
>>62730576they would’ve used their navy way more, but I doubt the final outcome would’ve differed that much
>>62730574funny I was actually having this conversation with my mother of all people. what the hell is the attraction? the French seem to have to.
>>62730591Economical, because Italy was essentially a piss-poor country larping as a great power. its industry was corrupt and inefficient (you can write essays on how FIAT ANSALDO purposefully sold outdated equipment to Fascist authorities that could not do jack shit against them). The Italian army had to pay comparatively more for less efficient equipment: we're talking about an agricultural country here. Good designs were hampered by outdated industrial organization, extremely poor logistics and harebrained developments. Didn't help that the industry often flat-out lied to the military about developments or possible production because Italians. Plus, a shitton of material was wasted in useless campaigns like Ethiopia or Spain, that were for sure good propaganda victories but gave Italy very little returns for the impressive expense they required.Social problems, because Italians were Fascists as long as it suited them. True believers were far and in-between and it's in the Italian character to serve your own self-interest before anything else, so when then regime started showing cracks everyone ran to save their own ass leaving the troops in the field to deal with the mistakes. Examples are endless, from Graziani fleeing from North Africa to the King himself escaping like a thief in the night and begging the Allies to save him. Italian elites were, and still are, a bunch of cowardly looters. That's how it is.
>>62730538Terrible generals and logistics.Some units didn't get proper boots until the Germans took command and there is no way Italy wasn't able to make some cheap boots.
>>62730618>Italy was essentially a piss-poor country larping as a great power. They're considered the least of the great powers. get it right
>>62730614abissinian girls are better looking than other negros
>>62730538Industry, or lack thereof. Italy was effectively an agrarian nation.
Imagine Germany, but instead of having high technology, high quality industry, an expanding middle class, stores of wealth, AND a dictator, it only has a dictator. I know people like to say "Oh but Mussolini played the military man and flaunted military strength" but there was nothing. All our industry popped up as a consequence of the European Recovery Plan, thanks George C. Marshall, you made us relevant.
their gear was decent at the start but as technology advanced they could neither keep up in quantity nor quality. sure, there were some good fighter planes and rifles but the sheer scale of the opposition made it all a pipedream. the US could do both quantity and quality, italy could do neither, because even quality needs SOME quantity to back it up.
>>62730538Hehe pasta spaghetti
>>62730538>country of spaghetti and pizza>starving
>>62730538Which war nigger?
>>62730538>goes into an industrial war without industry>gets beat to a pulp
>>62730784That's fucking Nilo-Saharan. you dumb fucking mutt
>>62731857You don't know your negroes as well as you think
>>62730574>tourists dont know this song was actually censored to avoid people wanting to go to war and expecting to find pussy
>>62730591>>62730618nta, but thanks for going into detail on the subject
>>62730591>Italians were Fascists as long as it suited them. True believers were far and in-between>>62730800>I know people like to say "Oh but Mussolini played the military man and flaunted military strength" but there was nothing. Mussolini's fascist regime makes a lot more sense as all for show. Play-acting unity and discipline in a country that didn't have it. There's a joke about a fascist party official going to a factory and quizzing the manager about his employees' political loyalties, who lists off a dozen different parties that his workers support (none of them the fascist party), and the official freaks out and asks, "are none of them fascists?" The manager replies, "no, commendatore, all of them are." Mussolini also struggled to maintain discipline in the classroom when he was a teacher. He was a curious guy and desire to make great things happen contrasted with a lot of little humiliations in his personal life.
too much tequila
>>62730822
>>62730538It was mostly their poor industrial base and poor acess to raw materials
>>62730538They tried to conquer Greece and North Africa instead of simply acting as a "neutral" buffer and supplier for Greater Germany.
>war bad>
>>62730538Both wars: Poverty
>decided to pick the german side to spite the british because they supported the ethiopians.>declared war even though they didnt need to>woefully unprepared>no industry>war wasnt very popular>didnt stockpile any resources>WW1 tier land forces, unmechanised, British armoured cars were better protected than their tanks>navy built of retrofitted older drednoughts and destroyers, only modern battleships were poorly constructed, with shells being multiple millimetres to small or large and no modern radar.
>>62730538>what was really their biggest problem during the war?They weren't ready, they already exhausted the military from the wars in Spain and Ethopia. The only reason why Italy joined in 1940 was because Mussolini thought the war was already over and wanted a piece of the cake. As others stated they had a piss poor industry when compared to the rest of the major powers and Italy was still undergoing industrialization. The old Italian military elite was incompetent and had to rely on Germany.
>>62732966Pride, too. You get definite sense watching some documentaries on this, given timing of summit meeting and how WW2 was going in the early stages, that Duce did a lot of stuff to show Italy was just as tough as Germany, but with no forethought or preparation. Greece especially was a boondoggle.
>>62730538>I think a lot of it has to do with the underlying society and how despite being "unified," it was still very much a feudal state. You know the clusterfuck of the AHE? Well remove the little bit of Austrian competence from the equation. Germany unified under a relatively centralized leadership with much of the work already done, look at 1848 for example. Even with the myriad of German states and kingdoms and city states, there was still a relatively cohesive and unified structure to all of it. Italy had none of this. Italy to me is much closer to the Balkans in terms of cultural cohesion, successive waves of immigration over centuries and the cluster headache inducing job of trying to understand all their early modern Kingdoms makes you realize how diverse Italy is, in a bad way. Special mention goes to the large disparity in centralization. For every city like Rome and Venice and Bologna, there are 1000 villages with their own language, no formal education, and no utilities. It takes a very very long time to iron stuff like this out. Additionally, the power structure, even under Mussolini, remained relatively unchanged. The minor nobility owned the factories up north and Italy never had major state arsenals beyond what you can consider Bresica. All those rival counts owned plants and each one wanted THEIR plane or tank to be adopted. And you can't just pick the best one either, you have to placate ALL of them or the ones you dont choose will get pissy and work slow or sabotage their production line in jealousy.>Frankly, to parrot what C&Rsenal said, that they could standardize production of the Carcano and have a relatively universal rifle and cartridge mostly successfully is nothing short of a miracle.TL;DR Italy was a feudal state with balkan level regional variance that never fully centralized even under Mussolini and without a strong federal government, you will never be able to have the centralized command logistics necessary to win a war.
arabs are terrible at war.
>>62730538They wasted a lot of money and resources fighting against the bad guys in the Civil War, way more than Germany, which is merely remember more because of the propaganda piece "Guernica". Italy send a 1/4 of a million rifles, 10,000 machine guns, 800 artillery guns, 150 tanks, and 660 warplanes to the Nationals. All of this was just direct military aid, not counting the Regia Marina sending 58 submarines to intersect trade and Republican warships, and 2 light cruisers providing naval bombarding, the Corps of Volunteer Troops sending 78,500 men, plus all the equipment and vehicles these men used, and the Legionary Air Force sending 764 warplanes flying a total of 135,265 hours, among these were 53 transport planes which transported the Army of Africa deep into Spain, which is was the first airlift in history, and probably the most important event in the war.After the war, the Italians left behind left most of the military equipment they brought with them, for no financial compensation in return (Most of it was obsolete), and returned with 4,000 dead men, and 11,000 injured ones. During these 3 years, Italy was wasting 20% of their GDP on this expedition (This is not counting the efforts in Ethiopia and North Africa), and affected the development of many economic sectors crucial for the war. Like some have pointed here, Italy is a mess, and reunification wasn't completed like they did with the Germanic states. A lot of the regions compete not against other countries, but among themselves. This minimized the industrial output of Italy, specially in manufacturing.It would be like the UK fighting a war against the USSR in 1946, because they thought the Americans had everything under control.
>>62730560>nobody had any steel except for the leafs and the bongs.>neither Bethlehem Steel or Magnitogorsk exist apparently I'm not sure what's more retarded. this chart, the person who made this chart, or you.
>>62733142>>62735096To expand on the unification issues, it wasn't just incomplete, but also botched, and by design. Piedmont-Sardinia decided to deliberately fuck over The Two Sicilies, in order to remove a rival power center post-unification. Hence the several waves of Southern Italian migrants (including a large number to the US) in the decades following unification.
>>62730546>thereoh dear
>>62730538As far as I'm concerned, Italy made the right choice just surrendering to the Allies instead of fighting to the death and getting your country divided in twoThey made out pretty alright for someone on the losing team
>>62733071It's a tad more complex than that: the Fascist Regime truly believed it could punch above its weight thanks to the relative successes of Ethiopia/Spain/Munich. Mussolini essentially faked it until he could no longer make it, insane as it may sound Hitler was borderline considered the junior partner in his early days compared to Mussolini, who ruled Italy for 20 years after all. Hindsight is 20/20.>>62735778The Savoia Monarchy was managed by complete retards that lucked out in having decent underlings and good allies, but it's not like there was much to develop in Southern Italy. Pretty much everywhere in Italy beyond the relatively industrialized North-West was a wasteland of illness and poverty. The fact that Southern Italy is still a wasteland of poverty ain't exactly a fault of the Savoia, retarded as they were. >>62736206Sure did. The Italians lost the war but won the peace: thanks to becoming politically irrelevant they went on an explosive economical growth that lifted the country from poverty to Western standards. Remember that during the Cold War Italy managed to have fruitful economical contracts with pretty much everyone, hell, they even had industrial collaboration with the Soviets (check Tolyatti, the city, for a laugh) and Yugoslavia. Dumping self-defense expenses on the US and having your economy rebuilt does wonders.
>>62736305>The fact that Southern Italy is still a wasteland of poverty ain't exactly a fault of the Savoia, retarded as they were. They deliberately sabotaged development efforts and withheld funding. Remember that, at one point, Saxony was considered a rural backwater filled with semi-illiterate hicks who don't even speak German (they still don't), but that slowly changed due to Bismarck's idea of developmental equalization.
>>62735718>column missing values means they had 0 of said resourcethe gall of calling others retarded
>>62730538>without any racismWhat is there to be racist about?
>>62736463He thinks this is /int/ and the thread will fill with seething Argentinians mad at their Italian surname that will call Italy Shitaly or something.
>>62736470>calling italy shitalyrobbed for that laugh at gunpoint, so stupid
>>62736322Real growth and industrial development in Italy is mostly a post-WW2 phenomenon. Without going into /int/ or /pol/ sperging, the fact that Southerners are poor and corrupt is a mixture of socio-economic factors and that the Christian Democrats endlessly bought votes in exchange for free gibs. Northern Italy lucked out on catching up with the German economy and capitalizing on that, it's not much a fault of the Savoia/Fascist mismanagement. You're still a bunch of almost-African Terroni bent on looting and thieving, but it's not exactly all your fault. At least you aren't from Trentino.
>>62736529>At least you aren't from Trentinowhat so bad about that area?It's probably the most pleasant and cleanest area in Italy I've been too. Also the only supplier I have in Italy that is never late is from Trento. t-"belgian"
Italy>fascist>go to war>get rekt>get rebuilt for free>become powerful nationSpain>fascist>don't go to war>don't get rekt>stagnate>end up less powerful than portugal
>>62736538Can't be that bad. Don't know what that anon is on about. Definitely better than the land of fog and communism. Seriously, fuck Emilia with a cheese grater. Romagna's fine though.
>>62736577>end up less powerful than portugalyou what
>>62736577That's just the fall of the empires.God why the fuck did you teach the Indians English, UK? Really wanted that fucking tea, huh?
>>62730538RATSWe were infested with rats, the fact that we found out about the red orchestra in Germany but never about our local rats suggested me that we were filled to the brim.The more I take a look the more i am sure about it: traitors everywhere.Recently I read about these two italian pilots that made a armor piercing bomb out of a battleship round, meant to be used against carriers. Couple of days before the planned attack an officer forced them to change fuse. The result? Dud.
>>62736538Sour grapes, mostly. Trentino has a most peculiar arrangement in the Italian State (like other "special" areas) that they get to keep 90% of their taxes to improve their territory and their German-speaking community is one of the most flat-out annoying bunch of assholes you can meet. I hate them because they're privileged, at least the Southerners are simply thieves and victims. >>62736596Emilia is alright, bar Bologna. It's one of the trains of the Italian economy, much like Veneto or Lombardy. Bologna is a shithole, but Milan is worse.
>>62736620>Emilia is alright, bar BolognaAye, I can drink to that. Fuck that piss-stained city. >Milan is worseI've only been to Milan as a tourist, but my father worked in Milan for nigh 20 years and we both agree it's probably the best of the big cities. Of course the rest of my family is from Romagna, so y'know. I've got biases.
>>62736057*oh thear
>>62736609Spain fell way before fascism. The definitive, killing blow was dealt by the united states in 1899. Yet, the fact that they couldn't rise above the status of regional statelet even after the 50s economic boom outlines the intrinsic flaws of a fascist (aka not a lapdog of america) economical policy.>thinks i'm a jeetFuck off you stupid ape
>>62736577Spain wasn't fascist.
>>62736636>>thinks i'm a jeetNah anon, you misread my post. I wasn't accusing you of anything. Just lamenting Britain's decision of teaching English to the jeets. We could've avoided them.
>>62736206not like other axis members had that luxury
>>62736577>>stagnateSpain became a poor country when it transitioned to democracy. Before that, they had one of the top 10 economies at the time.
>>62738141all they had to do was not killing millions of unarmed civvies just to play frankenstein. japs got away with a slap on the wrist because of that weeb traitor macarthur, germans weren't so lucky
>>62738257>democracyspain is still a monarchy you dolt
>>62738285Is the UK not a democracy becauuse it has a monarchy, you dumb ape? What about the Low Countries, or Belgium, or Norway, or Denmark, or Sweden? A republic is not necessary a democracy.
>>62738314>Is the UK not a democracy becauuse it has a monarchyyes, it is correct, retard. monarchy means "ruled by one", democracy means "ruled by people". whether or not a monarchy accepts laws and customs more akin to a democracy is irrelevant, they're two different types of governance and you're splitting hairs.
>>62738282Germans were lucky compared to Romanians, Hungarians, Slovaks and Bulgarians.
>>62738544>>62738544why didn't they just use their smelly bioweapons to make everyone give up
Moral like the French the Italians didnt see much reason for fighting on average. Stories of incredible bravery from small units / individuals aside.Everything else did help, poor radios, no fuel, no food, poor equipment, and poor high leadership. A better question is how Mussolini got as much as he did out of Italy. Early life his girlfriends.
>>62740602Did NOT help***Here is a good example, supreme courage. wasted because political infighting. Big navy was unable to sortie the day after torpedo men sank HMS Valiant and HMS Queen Elizabeth.Because they were never told about the operation.
>>62740643https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Alexandria_(1941)
>>62732851>decided to pick the german side to spite the british because they supported the ethiopians.Fun fact, Nazi Germany backed Ethiopia too
>>62740676china tied down the whole IJA
>>62740643They didn't know because all the swimmers were captured and both Valiant and Queen Elizabeth were still appeared to be afloat even if totally disabled. They had no way to know the attack was a success.
>>62736610"Due to a shortage of high-explosive bombs, however, the Bredas usually carried incendiary bombs that caused relatively little destruction on rocky ground or in sand,"https://www.historynet.com/italy-breda-ba65/Surprising amount of export sales 57....Ah no one else selling planes in 39Willing to sell to soviets.....Iraqis were "allied"
>>62740741Your not incorrect My point was the Decima MAS did not tell the larger navy, and would have been unable to capitalize on the event regardless.This is where all axis what ifs break down MF simply did not have a enough fuel and often food to.
>>62732851Speaking of woefully unpreparedhttps://regiamarina.net/the-ships-stranded-outside-the-mediterranean/
>>62736620>Trentino has a most peculiar arrangement in the Italian State (like other "special" areas) that they get to keep 90% of their taxes to improve their territory You touch upon an interesting point. Italy, like Germany, was the product of smashing together a bunch of formerly independent and separate political entities. A federal configuration would be more suitable to such a resulting state than a centralized one. I suspect Italy would've fared better had the Savoia not been power-hungry retards, and accepted federalism instead.
>>62730784>better looking than other negrosniggers are niggers except for paleskin jilec ethiopians. They pretty much look asian or semitic
>>62742375>ethiopiansguess what? abissinia is ethiopia.
>>62730538Unironically, the same problems Russia has in Ukraine.The officers, from the lieutenants to the generals, mostly got there through corruption.The soldiers couldn't give even less fucks about this war even if they tried hard.Their military-industrial complex kept the money flowing in by overreporting their results. For example, whenever Mussolini was touring military units before the war, the same batches of tanks and howitzers were quickly shipped across the country and given to whichever regiment the Duce happened to be visiting that day. In simpler words, Mussolini was shown 100 tanks (if the L3 can be called a tank) in 10 different places, and thought he had 1000 tanks ready to go, but there were only 100 of them - they were just paraded around with different unit markings.The "training" program most people experienced during their pre-war military service was more about helping peasants harvest lemons and cleaning the general's car than about squad tactics and shooting drills.Officers were trained on data and scenarii based on previous wars, which had nothing in common with the modern battlefield.The government underestimated how reliant on import everything was in this country (shortly after entering WW2, Italy found out that it imported most of its wheat, and couldn't produce fucking pasta without imported grain)They managed to forget to issue gear adapted to terrain/conditions found in their own country.Their leadership surrounded itself with yes-men, and silenced anyone reporting issues and errors in the army and military industry, which resulted in LOTS of unaddressed issues.Which is why Italy struggled against fucking Greece like Russia struggles against Ukraine.The main differences are that modern day Russia has its own natural ressources, and ex-Soviet, Iranian and North Korean hardware to resupply from, which is why they're, well, doing slightly (and I can't emphasize "slightly" enough) less terribly than Italy in Greece.
>>62736305>Hitler was borderline considered the junior partnernot that insane when you consider that mussolini invented and defined the variant of communism hitler adopted.
>>62736639uhhhh what are you talking about anon?spain got taken over by Francisco and the fascists that won him over to their side.>>62736577no, spain DID get reckt, and it got rekt by its own people.The leadup to the spanish civil war was a MASSIVE fuckfest.
>>62736620so you are angry at them because they are economically strong and don't want to see the fruits of their labour being handed out to the south?all you'e done is convinced me that you are a petty jealous prick and those german speakers are probably nice and friendly people
>>62742505Franco was more of an ubber conservative/reactionary.The leader of the fascist movement got killed before the revolution kicked off.They where there and they where part of the winning coalition and they got used as the official party because they where on hand.Franco never became a fascist, he used the remaining fascist as a hand puppet. They no longer having a strong leader where easy to play.Spain got wrecked trice in 10 ish years.The republic saw massive capital flight as the wealthy started to gtfo.The civil war smashed it to bits (and starvation in republican areas towards the end)Post war isolation caused outright starvationSpain regained it's wealth under Franco once relations with the US and the rest of western Europe got restored.
>>62730591>>62730618Thanks for the writeup anon.
>>62730574They were smart, they went straight for the source, easier to educate to live in society
>>62743931>pic has already been postedI should've checked
>>62743941Yours is non-ant resolution, don't worry anon.
>>62730538what bothers me is that mussolini was an OUTSTANDING civilian leader. the sheer number of improvements he did to the italian state is mind boggling, and it still resonates to this day.it's just that he really, really sucked as a wartime leader, and should've just minded his own fucking business instead of squandering italy's meager resources in propaganda victories and insecurity fueled stunts that cost him the war.
>>62742567really?I am still slowly working through a primary source on the spanish civil war after piecing together a rough timeline of the buildup.my impression was that he was seduced to their side by how shitty the communists reacted to losing three seats in the goverment (the miner rebellion attempt) but I haven't gotten to how he got into power, or the assassinations that both sides were conducting.
>>62744287Mussolini was pretty mediocre as a civilian leader too. His economical plans were mostly failures, one can argue at best that his re-organization of the State in a more centralized way (schooling, public services, legal framework) was in some way a success, but a lot of countries managed to do the same without crippling themselves and without the bothersome Fascist ideology slowing things down. Italy didn't get rich in the 30ies, it got rich in the 50-60ies. >>62742534The problem is, I have to pay for the Southerners and they do not just because they speak German. It's racism, it's what it is.
>>62730538N.1 reason:Italy thought it was entering an nearly ending war just to have a good relationship with Hitler and not be the next one to be invaded. Mussolini thought that with France crumbling he could join just before they surrendered and the UK being logistically far and not capable to invade Europe on it's own it would soon negotiate some peace deal and Hitler told Mussolini he was expecting the UK to agree to some "white" peace where neither the UK not Germany would be considered winner nor loser. Mussolini did not expect Hitler invading Russia or Japan bombing pearl harbor, just some relatively minor colonial scuffles with the UK till some peace deal. Likely Hitler promised him some of the french territory in North Africa and his support to take Greece which was technically not part of any alliance. (Hitler wanted Italy to make it hard for the UK to use Suez and the Mediterranean as the Italian islands near Greece, sicliy and so on made for perfect airfields to force the UK supply vessels and commerical ships from the colonies to go all the way around Africa and it would also cut the income from Suez, which combined with submarines warfare Hitler hoped would make the UK decide that it is pointless to keep a war which neither side can really win go in forever). So Italy didn't prepare for long and massive war. 2) NO FUEL Germany lacked fuel quite badly during the whole war, this was the reason for Hitler's invasion of Russia as he wanted to take the oil fields. Italy had the same problem Germany had but waaaaay worse. Italy had almost nothing since Libyan oil was only discovered near the end of WW2. Which meant Italy often had not even enough fuel to sail it's navy, didn't build big tanks and suffered limited mechanisation.
>>62736620>Emilia is alright, bar Bologna.>Bologna is a shithole, but Milan is worse.If I had to guess, you're from Italy, right?
>>62744363nah he was in on the rebellionbut he was not an overly eager man to join it because a previous plot got stomped onbut the rebellion was an all of the right and part of the center affair. It wasn't a fascist plot and it was hatched by officers and old political guard.José Antonio Primo de Rivera (son of the last dictator and founder of the Falanges) getting knocked off hurried it along and forced a lot of other fence sitters in.But Franco was of old military (navy) stock although his father was full on degenerate even by modern standards.An other fun fact is that Castro's father and Franco's Father had served tougher and stayed in contact. Leading to them also staying in contact.>>62744384sounds like you should learn German then, or stop paying for the southerners Sag est mit mir du kannst die Nudeln in zwei Hälften brechen. Das ist überhaupt kein Problem.
>>62744489yes, he eventually joined it, but before the failed communist rebellion he was repeatedly acting to preserve the current regime, opting for stability.
>>62738340Nah, you're the one splitting hairs. In all those monarchies the monarch is just a figurehead, with no actual power. It's more of a tradition than anything else, as the actual power is in the hands of the government and the parliament, which are elected by the people.For example, that's why in the UK the King is the "Head of State", but not the "Head of Government". They don't govern, but they represent the State.
>>62742473>The government underestimated how reliant on import everything was in this countryEh, not really. There was a strong push for Autarky, but when WW2 started they still weren't there (far from it, actually), and they still went in, thinking Britain would peace out and they would get participation gibs.
>>62742495>mussolini invented and defined the variant of communism hitler adopted.>Communism is supposed to be a "stateless, moneyless, and classless society">Mussolini described fascist ideology as "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State"Yeah.
>>62730538They have fuck all for natural resources and their economy was Africa tier. /thread
>>62730611>>62730576Depends when. If the Italian found the oil in Libya long before the war and exploited it to let's say half of today's Libya output it would have literally have CHANGED THE WAR MASSIVELY. Libya oil output is huge, far more than everything the axis had combined several time. Hitler main reason behind invading Russia was because he had extremely low fuel supply for it's vehicles and industry. He ignored Moscow and told his generals to rush towards the main Russian oil fields instead which back then where mainly near the Caucasus. If Italy was able to supply more than enough fuel for Germany the invasion of Russia would not likely have happened. Italy fuel situation was far worse than Germany. It crippled Italian industrial capabilities, it made pointless to build big tank so Italy focused on small fuel efficient mini tanks instead which proved ineffective, it prevented the Italian navy mad more importantly the Italian merchant marine from regularly moving cargo around the Mediterranean with appropriate naval and air escorts. It limited the use of trucks causing the Italian military to rely a lot on horses and mules like during WW1. The axis during WW2 was literally shaped by the lack of oil. Japan own bombing of pearl harbor was decided because the US cut them off from oil sales due to their invasion of china and Japan really had to take the oil fields in the dutch east indies to keep it's war in china going so Japan had to attack a member of the allies to get to a reliable oil source so they decided to to hit the Americans first while they quickly took over Asian oil fields. An Italy able to sell plenty of oil both Japan and Germany would very possibly have prevented Barbarossa and pearl harbor keeping the ear between the UK and Germany.
>>62733142There were never waves of immigration.
>>62736322It wasn't a wasteland of poverty
>>62742150Won territories after WW1
>>62730538What's odd to me is how Japan performed so much better than Italy. Japan was supposed to be poorer and yet they at least managed to score a few victories.
>>62730538>without any racismYou're dealing with Ameritards. They're incredibly ignorant and you'll have to deal with their bizarre idiotic racial system.
>>62744688https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Agreement
>>62744489>But Franco was of old military (navy) stock although his father was full on degenerate even by modern standards.You can't just say that without giving some examples.
>>62744844left his wife and took several mistresses while refusing to get a divorceknown to frequent brothels more than the enlisted sailorshad a very, very libertine lifestyle in generalit wasn't just a couldn't keep it in his pants thing but he seemed to want to break as many taboos as he could get away withyou just know at some point he did some buggering as well just to try it
>>62736057Dear ww1 generals???
>>62744549>the invasion of Russia would not likely have happened.Eastward expansion was always the goal, lack of fuel only determined its start.
>>62730538Shit everything. Shit tanks, arms, planes, soldiers, and people.
>>62744549>He ignored Moscow and told his generals to rush towards the main Russian oil fields instead which back then where mainly near the Caucasus.No, this is what he should have done, instead of trying up millions of men in Lenin and Stalingrad.
>>62744708Why are turdies always so hypocritical and blatantly unself-aware?
>>62745130You mad?
>>62745130kill yourself.
>>62745184You're speaking about yourself.
>>62730538Mostly biting off far more than they could chew. Mussolini was desperate to show Italy as being a Rome tier power in the Mediterranean again nevermind an imperial power as well given their war in Ethiopia, and up until Hitler went full throttle Mussolini was basically the face of fascism in Europe and across the world, which naturally meant getting tangled up in goofy shit like the Spanish Civil War of which Italy provided a ton of materiel and personnel support right along its time in Ethiopia. Add in Greece and the rest of the overall war by 1940 onward and it shouldn’t be too shocking that they experienced a ton of issues up to the end. All while dealing with the state of the Italian homefront nonetheless. >>62730614All I’ll say as a pale, blue eyed white man is of all the girls the most who treated me great were black, and they got some real qts once you look past the obese shaniquas.
>>62744539>Everything in the State, nothing outside the StateWhich is literally communism in practice you fucking moron. State ownership and administration of everything in the country.
>>62730538Leadership at every level.
>>62744539yes? there is nothing wrong with what I said dude.Mussolini saw during WW1 how willing people were to die for their nation, and decided to rework communism to make people rise up in revolution for the good of the nation, rather than "the people"And he convinced a bunch of guys who were supposed to be about NOT trusting big government to DO it with him.
>>62744549>Hitler main reason behind invading Russia was because he had extremely low fuel supply for it's vehicles and industry. Lol no. Hitler invaded Russia purely due to his ideological hatred of Russians and Communists. All the other reasons were just window dressing. He was literally seething at them. Remember, part of the deal with Stalin to divide Poland is for Russia to provide critical raw materials to Germany. Stalin couldn't believe that Hitler was stupid enough to throw this away just for ideological reasons, especially when Britain was not yet defeated. Stalin even thought Barbarossa was a false flag ops by the Western Allies to trick him to break his NAP with Hitler and commanded the trains carrying the treaty raw materials to continue delivering them for several days after Russia was invaded.
>>62746376Communism is a stateless societyNo socialist country ever claimed to have achieved communism unironicallyThen you can claim Stalin was a fascist all along and i'd tend to agree
>>62746376>>62747194>There is nothing wrong with what I said dude.>Which is literally communism in practice you fucking moron.Sure, but you said that Fascism is a form of Communism, which it definitely is not. The whole goal of Fascism is "everyone serves the State", while the goal of Communism is "there is no State". Even if every Communist country devolves into Fascism, ideologically they are polar opposites, so saying that Fascism derives from Communism is utterly retarded, just as you are.Also, before your retardation gets the better of you, I'm not defending communism. It always devolves into Fascism because it's an utterly retarded idea that breaks down as soon as somebody says "Nah, I don't think I'll contribute, but thanks for the gibs".
>>62750328you dont know communism very well lolin communism step two after le revolution is literal fascism.everything is put towards the state, total concentration of power and resources in order to enable the full transformation of society into their supposed utopia.Marx's plan for step 4 was literally to hope that the state would "wither and die off" on its own.I am half paraphrasing and half quoting him here.The idiot really went>step 1, kill everyone not on your side>step 2, all power to le revolution!>step 3, ???>step 4, utopia!That is why EVERY single time non-anarchist communism is enacted it turns into a fucking dictatorship and facism.The fascism is unironically a critical step so there is always someone who steps in and takes power.Marx was THAT much of a retard and basically made the perfect ideology to dupe retards into destroying their society to put corrupt people into positions of near absolute power.
>>62748257in the train car recording he says that they invaded because if the soviets declared war they could invade Romania and cut off Germany's oil supply, so the war would be impossible to win.
>>62748257>Hitler invaded Russia purely due to his ideological hatred of Russians and CommunistsTaking eastern lands was always an ideological cornerstone, but invading Russia at that time was a practical matter. The oil point of the other anon is partly correct. Securing oil wasn't the main drive, it was knowing the Axis wouldn't have enough oil to do it at any later point and he (correctly) viewed a war with the USSR inevitable.
sicilian iq is like 80
>>62748345Communism isn't a non-existent society, it's a dogshit fascist ideology. No country claimed it achieved communism because by the end goal they're all dead.
>>62744363The Spanish civil war wasn't a fascist vs. communist conflict, both sides were very big tents (and had a lot of infighting).Franco himself was an authoritarian conservative reactionary, which wasn't all that rare at the time, especially in the region, not a fascist. He wanted more power to the traditional values and big shots of Spain; the church and the land owners/nobility.Despite what communists will tell you, fascism isn't reactionary or conservative (even if it often adopts its aesthetics), but is, if anything,futurist in nature.That's why Franco put more power in the hands of the king (who would reinstate democracy after Franco's death), while neither Hitler or Mussolini did the same, despite both having the option to do so.
>>62753432No it's not
>>62753650Franco was a fascist and a reactionary conservatist in every way, he was more of a king than the previous kings and he was more fascist than Mussolini
>>62756517>Franco was a fascist and a reactionary conservatistthose are two different things. There's a reason why Franco exiled all the original Falangist leadership and merged the party with traditionalist conservatives into his own party.
>>62730538>without any racismI can't do it.
>>62730538A major problem of theirs, though not the only one, was that the Germans needed a scapegoat and the English press needed comedic relief.
>>62730538Their biggest problem was them being at the center of Mediterranean, meaning limited expansionist opportunities, thus limiting their combat experience.
>>62736620>their German-speaking community is one of the most flat-out annoying bunch of assholes you can meet.same with that in Switzerland, worst dickheads on earth
>>62736639>Spain wasn't fascist.It was the only good fascist state last century imo
>>62736620That’s because they never wanted to be part of your incompetent mafia state.
>>62744688Japan had more resources (>>62730560) but the big thing I think is that unlike the Italian army or navy where promotion was corruption-based, the IJN was a meritocracy while the IJA was at least based on honor and experience
