Brazil is in the selection process for acquiring medium tanks (VBC CC) and infantry fighting vehicles (VBC FUZ). The plan is to acquire both on a common platform under 50 tons. The vehicles being considered are >BAE Hagglunds CV90120T>Leonardo-Rheinmetall Lynx Hitfact 120>Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Type 10>FNSS Kaplan MT>KNDS Boxer Tracked 120>Larsen & Toubro Zorowar>Elbit Sabra 105 LT>GDLS M10 Booker>Norinco VT5>Otokar Tulpar 120>STK Hunter 3105LTThe initial batch will be for 65 medium tanks and 78 infantry fighting vehicles with more acquisitions to follow in batches. An active protection system and local assembly will be required on any model. The Lynx 120, CV90120T and Type 10 are the preferred models in the running so far with the Lynx the most likely candidate due to Leonardo and Rheinmetall having already established presence in Brazil. The Mitsubishi Type 10 is especially significant as it marks the first heavy weapons export tender Japan has participated in since it cancelled it's ban on arms exports. The Zorowar, Type 10 and VT5 do not offer an IFV variant and would require an alternative IFV candidate. Additionally the army has planned a separate MBT tender.
>medium tanks>2024stop trying to be special and just mass buy ifv's with atgms instead
>>62771980>Leonardo-Rheinmetall Lynx Hitfact 120would also provide parts commonality with the Centauro II Brazil already ordered
>>62771980>The Mitsubishi Type 10 is especially significant as it marks the first heavy weapons export tender Japan has participated in since it cancelled it's ban on arms exports. Mitsubishi tried to sell tech from the Type 10 to Turkey years back but got caught before the export ban was repealed. Hopefully this time they can. Brazil has been pining after it for some time now.My body is ready>>62772001Modern medium tanks have the same protection, weight and firepower as main battle tanks did during the cold war. It's basically just admitting that modern MBT are too fat.
>>62772089I'm pretty sure the Lynx with the Hitfact will be what wins out even though I wish the Type 10 would be selected. They're already building a factory in Brazil to make the turrets and Rheinmetall also has a facility there to maintain Leopards.>>62772091I don't think the Type 10 will win this tender, but Brazil does have plans to replace their normal tanks soon. I could see them trying to getting the Type 10 that way, possibly with one of those rumored heavier armor packages. Mitsubishi may be willing to sell it but there is not guarantee that the Japanese government will ultimately allow it either.
>>62771980>CV90120T>ZorowarWhat is the chance that Sweden and India try to use the interest in the C-390 to influence this?
>>62771980Source?
>>62771980Why don't huecacos build their own tanks?
>>62772938They lost the capability to build tanks after their economy went to shit back in the 80/90s
>>62773004Why don't they build their own tanks now? Is there military filled with corrupt retards who suck Foreigner semen or something?
>>62773029Starting from scratch is way, way, way more expensive than expanding production or switching production to a newer model. You need to do everything from training personnel to sourcing the required machinery and like 99% of the time when you start production there will be issues to varying degrees. If you start producing something domestically it is a thousand times easier if you can get financing and orders from abroad and you export in huge numbers. It's why the Russian stealth fighter programs are stalling hard as well because the funding just died halfway there and fucking around with new technologies (for the Russians) has a lot of teethin issues at the start. Of course you can always take the India approach to procurement and try to do everything domestically and fuck it all up due to a combination of incompetence, corruption and redoing the requirements for procurement six times in the middle of procurement programs.
>>62772938Cheaper to buy off the shelf, especially in this class. However Brazil did make it's own MBT in the past and wants to in the future with a foreign partner. They're really been pushing the Japanese on their autoloader tech. This bid is just for medium tanks. Pic related is a Brazilian MBT.
Brazil doesn’t have a real military, isn’t going to deploy it in combat anywhere and no one is going to invade them. So it doesn’t matter; they’ll just buy whatever satisfies all parties’ minimum level of corruption required, which means, usually, whatever is cheapest and/or whoever gets the largest bag for an ongoing contract (local manufacture, service, etc).
when was the last war in South America?
>>62774412https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenepa_War
>>62774464border skirmish at best
>>62774580>>62774580https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia%E2%80%93Peru_Warthis one lasted 8 months, from September of 1932 to May of 1933.
>>62774258>However Brazil did make it's own MBT in the past and wants to in the future with a foreign partnerkorea? I know that they're super open in regards to tech transfer. Brazil has also made in roads with the C-390 sale to the Korean armed forces.
>>62771980looks like flipland's sabrah tanks
>>62774604Border skirmish that lasted for 8 months. About 60 combat casualties on both sides and around 200 casualties from diseases on both sides as well.
>>62774853Japan. Brazil has been in talks with Mitsubish for a while. Though I think the K2 would be a good fit too, it's just heavier.
>>62772518I personally think it will come down to the CV90120T vs the Lynx. The Zorowar is simply too underarmored. Though it wouldn't surprise me if some were alternatively ordered in small numbers for the marines to smooth things out for India and the KC390 purchase.CV90120T stands a good chance because: A.)The army already really likes the CV90 and has been testing it for a while even before the tenderB.)Brazil already has very deep ties with Swedish defense industry, did a full tech transfer with the Gripen and is working with Saab to develop a stealthy drone and stealthy Gripen successor for the Brazilian air forceLynx is also likely because:A.)The Brazilian army already operates several hundred Leopards and has had fantastic quality of operations with Rheinmetall locally building facilities for their upkeep and modernization. The hulls can already be built at the local Rheinmetall facility.B.)Germany already has very deep industrial ties in Brazil and can likely pull some behind the scenes stuff to sweeten the deal with additional manufacturing and services to be built up in BrazilC.)It mounts a Leonardo Hitfact 120 turret which is already being mounted on the Centauro 2 which has already been selected for the Brazilian army and will soon feature a full Brazilian assembly line. The turret can already be built at the local Lenoardo/Iveco facility.The Italians have also proposed heavily upgrading the Leopards and M60s with a heavier armored version of the Hitfact 120 turret, but it looks like Brazil no longer wants to upgrade these older tanks and will instead acquire new MBTs in a separate tender. When that MBT tender goes through, it is likely that they will go with the new Panther that Rheinmetall and Leonardo are already proposing for the Italian army, and there would already be local facilities to make it in Brazil. Personally I'd prefer the Type 10, CV90MKIV and Ascalon 140 for the CC, FUZ and MBT tenders respectively, but LRMV is still great.
>>62774412Real shit war exclusively fought in SA with casualities in 100,000+?The War of the Triple Alliance I think.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_WarI belive that it was also the bloodiest one fought In the Americas
>>62776764>I belive that it was also the bloodiest one fought In the AmericasUS civil war was worse.
>>62776885>>6277676490% of the male population of Paraguay died in this war.
>>62776897the upper estimates for the total casualties according to the wikipedia is 500,000 for the Paraguayan war. The lower estimates for the US civil war is about 616,000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War I won't deny that Paraguay most likely suffered more in terms of what they had and what they lost.
>>62776885You are right. I guess it one of those things were people split hairs for effect, namely that the Paraguay War was conflict between nations were as the US Civil war was, well, a civil war
Lula and Meloni will start talks for 26 M346 trainers for their AirForce and Navy.That might affect this deal as well.
>>62771980Why would Brazil need tanks?Why would any country in south america need tanks?
>>62776945knowledge in manufacturing and operating military vehicles are transferable to other commercial products specifically in the heavy machinery industry.
>>62776945Anyone who has a frontier with France should have tanks, nukes even.
>>62776945Because Venezuela is retarded and threatens to send the continent into it's first major war in a long time and will probably bring in powers from other continents once they start collapsing.
>>62776945Brazil has their own MIC and wants to develop further now that Russia got relegated to 4th World.
>>62777048It's pretty pathetic how Russia is groveling to the other BRICS members and assorted other countries and trying to get them to accept their new garbage international currency. Brazil has a bigger GDP than Russia now. It would not surprise me if at this point Brazil is more capable of mass producing modern weaponry.
>>62777632This is literally fanart.
>>62778128Looks pretty similar to what Monke handed King Poop
I love how they still hell bent on modernizing the Cascavel, even though at the same time they're replacing them with the Centauro II's.>new engine>new FCS>ATGM capabilityThe only thing left it's the APFSDS round that IMBEL had tested in the 80's.
You don't need MBTs in BrazilJust build an 8x8 Guarani with a 105mm and 120mm gunIf they need a favela smasher, just use a proper modern IFV
>>62772108>>62772091Japanse tanks and their autoloaders will forever remain in the realm of defending Japan from technological stagnation and maybe Kaiju like Pulgasari, otherwise it isn't happening.
>>62779716This gookshill is worse cancer that the jeet swarm
>>62779610They already have a new 8x8 with a 120mm gun the, the Centauro 2. They do need a new tracked tank. Actually about 300.
>>62779986>This gookshill is worse cancer that the jeet swarmOkay, Rajesh.
I wish this was real.
>>62772001The light/medium tank in modern usage is a different subcategory of IFV, it just specializes in direct firepower via high-caliber cannon rather than ATGM + autocannon. >>62772091>Modern medium tanks have the same protection, weight and firepower as main battle tanks did during the cold war.The Type 10 barely compromises anything to get its weight savings, its protection is superior to pretty much all but the latest of the Cold War tanks, not to mention that it has a 120mm gun.
>>62779417
>>62779417>>62781149They probably are still developing it so they can export the basic turret after it's retired. That turret on a 6x6 Guarani would be an excellent fire support vehicle.
>>62781819>They probably are still developing it so they can export the basic turret after it's retired.Nope, the development stopped in the 80's after they realized the cannon wasn't suitable to fire darts and the gains compared to the normal HEAT were barely better.https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/brazil/ee-9-m4-apfsds-testbed/It doesn't make sense re-viving a 90mm APFSDS development when it's not tactically nor economically viable when you're already replacing it with another vehicle with 120mm cannon and you're developing your own munitions of top of it.
>>62779716Fuck off norkshill
>>62781096Why is Embraer such a pussy when it comes to making a widebody? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7vDDBhpmOA
>>62782757Because there's literally no need to.
Pls buy "our" products.
>>62779417Cute!
>>62783253>C-SARindian joint project?
>>62783968Search and Rescue.
>>62777632>Brazil has a bigger GDP than Russia now.Ayyy my kek do céu, Russia is dead.
>>62776945Brazil wants to be a bigger influence in the world. Having a strong military helps a lot with that.
>>62784489>8 ATGM per squadThis even puts those Swedish CV90 squads to shame. They really took those early Ukraine war tactics to heart.
>>62783706>>62781149>>62781865>>62779417I don't know, South Africans were able to knock out T72s with their 76mm APFSDS armed Rooikats. A 90mm APFSDS probably still can be useful in recon vehicles.
>>62785160The Cockerill 90mm is rifled, which is ass for darts.
>>62783253only if you're from Pernambuco
I'm honestly surprised Brazil hasn't developed its own tanks, given what a powerhouse Brazil is in terms of population, economy and industrial knowhow. We Argies have this modest meme-tank developed in the 1970s, I'm sure you could do something better these days.
>>62786271That's a marder with a leopard gun.
>>62786409kek yeah you could say that. It was a contract developed in association with Thyssen-Hensche, but it involved technology transfer.I think it does the job of a medium tank just fine. I'm sure Brazil could do something better these days, since your military-industrial complex wasn't neutered and destroyed like ours.
>>62786271Brazil can develop it's own tank and has several times but its much more expensive and I doubt a Lula government would fund ut, especially when light armor, submarines and aircraft are more important and profitable.
>>62786552That looks like a WarThunder loading screen.
>>62786552>reverse image searchFucking nice. Had no idea this existed.
>>62776987Anon... Tanks are never being deployed in that border.
>>62786711Didn't they had M60's up there before they got retired?
>>62786711They literally sent takes up there earlier this year.
>>62786767Guaranis and LMV's.Nothing big really.
>>62786450>>62786271Love the TAM. Mexico built a similar vehicle based off a lighter version of the same platform. Also in collaboration with Henschel. There was a plan for 400 of the transport version and 100 of the tank version built locally but politicians decided to save money and bought foreign built French vehicles instead. Only the first batches were built. The light tank version is interesting. It can still carry 4 dismounts while having the turret. It has a French turret and 90mm gun and an American engine, I think only like a half dozen were ever built before the ERC90 was acquired instead. In the 90s it was adapted to fire the Falarick gun launched missile which is pretty neat.
>>62786552I like Brazilian tanks.
>>62786761>>62786767Big if true. Aren't the roads there just unpaved mud?I suppose that they're more useful in sending a message instead of being expected to face combat.
>>62786791Very nice. Some people may scoff at these light tank designs but in terms of building know-how to go on to build greater things I think these projects are important. And in reducing foreign reliance so everything you have isn't imported.>>62786711Apparently I just looked it up and Venezuela has a surprising amount of tanks. I have no idea how many are in working order or actually serviceable but I was surprised.
>>62786825Yeah, local assembly and tech transfer seems like it's become a requirement nowadays for Mexico thankfully. I do believe Brazil has a similar policy. >>62786822>>62786782More of a reason for Brazil to look into lighter tanks as well. Bigger heavy MBTs are very hard to logistically move to a lot of places. Mexico literally has no main battle tanks because they can only be deployed in about 1/3rd of the national terrain. It is a shame though because even then having a small amount would have been helpful in certain scenarios. In the 90s the Germans, French, Russians and US were dumping their older Leopard, AMX32/40, T80s, and M60s abroad and offered them to Mexico for next to nothing. I still think a few dozen should have been bought just to maintain technically ability since they were so cheap. The Mexican army is looking to build tank & IFV departments again so now they're basically going to have several full generations of a loss of doctrine knowledge and will probably have to import advisors. It's extra grim because Mexico was like the 5th country to actually build a tank and has lost decades of that skillset.
>>62776897>90% chance of death>10% chance of literally drowning in pussyWould you roll the dice?
>>62771980Why does Brazil need tanks?
>>62787005Any self-respecting country needs tanks particularly one with one of the largest territories in the world to defend.Why do Americans/Euros ask this every time a South American country procures a weapon?Just because the region is relatively peaceful doesn't mean it should be disarmed.si vis pacem para bellum
>>62786825Ever since last year, Venezuela been building up right at the Guyanan border.
>>62786822Amazonian soil is dogshit for 60ton MBT's, even truckers suffer there because the little asphalt that there is, gets eroded by the humid soil.They could, in theory send Leopards up there, but their operations would be severely limited since there's only ONE road connecting into Venezuela.
>>62787296Honestly the weight limitations are the main reason why the Osorio should have been pursued. Upgraded M60A3BR are too heavy to use in much of the continent and the Leopard 1A5BR is too poorly armored to go 1:1 against more modern threats. The Osorio is only 45 to 48 tons but had similar protection and firepower to the Abrams thanks to British composite armor tech. I am not one thinks it could out perform the M1A2 Abrams but it did demonstrate that it was 90% as capable while being easier and more practical to deploy for the majority of global armed forces. It did have better optics and FCS than the M1A1 at the time too due to a cool Vickers/Giat tech package.
>>62787330It's better to just take a light hull and give it a turret with a 120mm nowadays.Tank on Tank combat is rare, even in the slav-shitflinging, it's all about APS and drones.The CV90 with the BR-made HITFACT will probably be the replacement for the Leo.Gotta remember that last year it wasn't the first time they tested the CV90, they also tested thre CV9040 back in 2003 as well.
>>62786797I would've had sexo with a tamoyo if it had reach full production >>62786271It can, but most of the old companies that made them, Bernadinni and Engesa, went bankrupt in the 90s when the government no longer cared about a house made tank industry. The end of the cold war (FUCKING COMMUNISTS FAGGOTS DENIED ME MY TAMOYO) and the end of the military regime killed out tank mic.
>>62786552>>62787330he cute
>>62772001The original M1 weighed 54 Tonnes the Type 10 weighs 48. Morden versions of cold war tanks are rapidly turning into the bloated mess that were late war German tanks with more and more stuff bolted onto a transmission and engine that they weren't designed for. You're also having to deal with making modern electronics be able to interface with 1970s technology.
>>62772938It's a good opportunity to get some c-390 sales for countries that want to replace their herbs without buying A400s.
>>62787330>Honestly the weight limitations are the main reason why the Osorio should have been pursuedThe problem isnt overall weight, the problem is ground pressure, which is solved by interleaved road wheels and extra wide tracks. The cost of this is a wider tank and higher fuel consumption. The cost of going light is that you will lose far more vehicles because shaped charges will cut trough in too many places. I am amazed that we have the ongoing Ukraine war right in front of our faces where there are humongous amounts of wreckage left from 15-40 ton combat vehicles that could not take the HEAT (literally) on the battlefield and people are still championing the mobility over survivability dogma. You can go with mobility over survivability if you can pump out 1000 new tanks per month aka the Sherman Strategy. But if you cant, and still insist on mobility over survivability, you will be fucked in any war that lasts longer than a month.
>>62774464>>62774604>Checkslist of wars involving Peru>WW2: victorious>Never lost a war during the last 100 or so yearsWhat's going on with these browns?
>>62788290Big piru (benis) energy
>>62788290South America is where all of the Jomonbvlls went while the Yayoicucks were left in Nihon.
>>62788298Why can't any one of them grow a beard worth a shit then?
>>62788290Tecnically speaking, Peru is the country who been the most warmongering in the continent's history.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_South_America
>>62788470>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster_WarWas it autism?
>>62788567DeGaulle's inferiority complex biting him in the ass.
>>62788567>checks BrazilWait:>biggest country>lots of landgrab>lots of useless land too>mutts>Industrialized>speaks divergent language>occasionally genocidalSo, Brazil is South America's Russia if Russia were somewhat more competent and friendly?
>>62788802I don't think Brazilians hate human existence enough to be compared to Russia.
>>62776897Surprised they recovered ngl, Paraguay is one of the few South Americans countries left with a above 2.1 birthrate now (although I’ve heard this might also be because of mennonites)
Fun fact, CRUZEX 2024 starts in a few weeks.Gripens will probably rape everyone with it's Meteors desu.
>>62776885>>62776922The Paraguayan War probably seems worse because of >>62776897.
>>62789973>Mexico has zero modern fighters so can't come
>>62789995Chaco War was worse, 500k people died over Oil that never existed and the whole conflict was a literal Proxy War between BP and Shell.
>>62789219I remember seeing a youtube presentation of Kaiserbauch about brazilian demographics, it was an interesting analysis with some reflections on how the racial future of America and Europe may end up looking like, tl:dr; you will end up with tons of mutts, it appears in a moment of brilliance the brazilian elites decided to come up with the idea that the main identity of brazilians wasnt white or black or "pardo" but "brazilians", for what I read most of LATAM also started to apply these policies in order to avoid the sort of ethnic and racial conflicts you see raging across the rest of the Third World, instead their current social unrest now has more to do with economic inequality than anything else as a brown with a certain amount of money, education and mannerisms is seen and treated as a white even if he has a large amount of native or black racial element, this apparently results in people of darker complexion mocking fairer people because they are "white browns"...Hey that sounds familiar...
>>62771980If they're actually looking for actual medium tank, VT5 is the way to go. Type 10, whilst being under 50 ton, is more suitable for MBT roleIf they're looking for IFV platform then they should go with Lynx
>>62771980Firstly remove anything with 120mm gun. It's a waste of space, resource and will wreck the vehicle especially the ones that are glorified APCs. 105mm gun is plenty powerful enough Secondly remove anything with Cockerill gun. Cockerill gun is notorious for having low barrel life.So the choices are:>VT5>M10 booker>Sabrah
>>62790782>remove anything with 120mm gunretard>and will wreck the vehicle especially the ones that are glorified APCstriple retard
>>62790905>all combat vehicles needed 120mm gunif anything, you're the retard
>>62791003yeah, cause fuck having more explosive per round, or programmable ammunition, or basically no spent casings, right?
>>62791020Sure for MBT. Brazil is looking for medium tank to complement its infantry they don't need 120mm.
>>62791028semanticsthe “medium tank” they’re looking for, despite technically not being one, is an MBT for all intended purposes
>>62790553>>62790782Christ what retarded takes
>>62790782The BR Army wants to upgrade to 120mm, which is why they went with the Centauro.
>>62771980Additionally, proposed MBT tender with a 62 ton weight limit.Vehicles considered:>Hyundai K2M >GDLS M1A1 SA>Leonardo Ariete C2 Hitfact 120>Rheinmetall KF51 Panther>Norinco VT4-A1>KNDS Leclerc Ascalon 120>KNDS Leopard 2 A-RCInterestingly Leonardo has proposal to sell Brazil a modernized Ariete with an uparmored version of the Hitfact 120 turret for maximal commonality with the Centauro 2.
>>62792825> Leonardo has proposal to sell Brazil a modernized Ariete with an uparmored version of the Hitfact 120nothat was just a testbed/proof of concept
>>62793334Yes, a proposal. A bad one IMO. They also wanted to put that turret on the Leopard 1. Brazil rejected the proposal. It's already outdated and underpowered out of the gate.
>>62793350>a proposalit’s not been proposed
>>62793553VGH can't wait for our F-16s to be delivered so that we can do some proper wargames. Your Gripens have the upper hand ngl but it will be nice to put on more than just a token appearance at CRUZEX.
>>62793705
Someone should make a South American general thread. I'd post in it.
