The best handgun ever made. Simple as. Poorfag copers need not apply.
Ok
so good you don't even have to own one.
I can also penetrate soft body armor but I only cost $350
>>62801165>complains about poorfags>posts mass-produced plastic slop
>stock photo>ragebait OPwhat's your MO?
>>62801165The trigger is nice, they are accurate, light weight, low recoil, and have great sights. Grip comfort is subjective but I like it. Once I complete current projects I’d like to get one. I’ve really enjoyed the ones I’ve got to shoot over the years. >>62801214How’s ammo availability on toks these days? In over a decade and a half of shooting I’ve never seen one irl
>>62801231>How’s ammo availability on toks these days?Fucking garbage like everything else that used to be 25 -30 cents a round. 7.62 tok is like 50-60 cpr now
>>62801231the ammo is about the same price as 357 but it also basically only goes in one gun so its not very commonalso theyre like the cheapest and shittiest guns imaginable and while they're absolutely based i think their reputation has grown beyond what the object actually deserves, i dont even think they're worth $200
>>62801231mine wont feed hollow points which is the only shit I can find locally
>>62801165I proudly own one and you're genuinely retarded if you think it's anywhere close to the best handgun ever made. The trigger isn't as clean as an SAO should be, and it has the absolutely retarded inclusion of a mag safety. Being made of like 90% plastic does not help its case, as well as the weird (but functional) safety.Gun's like an 8/10 on a good day.
WOUND VECTORSOUNDVECTORS
>>62801263every time ive seen tokarev hollow points the gun shop guy speaks about it in hushed tones like they're some kind of forbidden import from the cold war era and i just looked it up and privi partizan sells italso i dont understand how serbs make the best ammo and the shittiest guns
I carry mine every day. Only complaint is the mag safety. It hasn’t been an issue yet, but I hate anything that could go wrong to make it less reliable. Fun gun to shoot
>>62801317idk but god bless PPU for letting me shoot my slavshit post 2022 / 2014
>>62801318How do you carry it? OWB?
>>62801165Given that numerous actual field operators complained that you consistently needed to put a dozen rounds into a guy with a P90, a select fire weapon in the same 5.7x28mm cartridge, and with a much longer barrel, and at CQB ranges, I have extremely low confidence in the Five Seven pistol for anything but target shooting and small game.It can penetrate soft armor, sure, but the ballistics become much worse than they already are after that.>>62801259Tokarev pistols are certainly not excellent, the Yugo ones are better for having real safeties and another round of capacity, but they're still like a 1911 but not nearly as good.If there was something akin to the Beretta 92 or Glock 17 but chambered for 7.62mm Tokarev, high capacity and modern, I could see a real appeal in the cartridge.>>62801263>>62801317I would test that ammo before relying on it, I have not heard good things about 7.62mm Tokarev hollow points, poor or negligble expansion from pistol barrels.
>>62801317>serbs make the best ammoBy who's standards?>>62801318Do you live in fear of wild rabbits?
>>62801165I bought a Mk 3 but never carry it because of the convoluted ammo availability situation with 5.7x28 and how you have to go grey market to get the good stuff. The Speer Gold Dots were nerfed after the first run for being too good. That's how fucking stupid FN and Federal are about it because the Five-seveN pistol was called a "cop killer gun" by activists back in the early 90's. Garand Fag did one of those gel dummy tests with off the shelf 5.7x28 ammo a while back, and the results were pretty abysmal. The penetration and wound diameters were predictably pathetic considering the size and weight of the projectiles. The solid copper black dragon fang meme ammo might be better, but I can't speak from personal experience to how good it is.
>>62801378I wonder who it was who decided to make the big push for new 5.7mm guns a few years back? The cartridge obviously sucks.
>>62801360>the Yugo ones are better for having real safeties and another round of capacity, but they're still like a 1911 but not nearly as good.My nigga you're straight up retarded. The Yugo safeties are only crudely installed as part of the importing process. They're garbage and they're also not unique to the m57. Most of the other tokarevs have safeties too but they're dubious like the m57. You're over selling the 1911 similarity. There is very little in common besides the tilting barrel design
>>62801360>I would test that ammo before relying on ityeah no shit it doesn't even feed
I have one but you're a fag for using a stock photo. Where is your Five SeveN, OP? Are you a poorfag?
Been a big uptick of these lazy faggotass threads by retards posting stock pics of shit they don't own
>>62801447Tilting barrel with locking lugs, swinging barrel link, barrel bushing at the front of the slide. What other pistol was doing this in 1930, when the Tokarev was designed?
>>62801397>The cartridge obviously sucks.Picrel would like a word with you
>>62801447Doesn't look like the old milsurp import safeties to me.
>>62801496He would have had a much higher kill count with 9mm or .45
>>62801484The tokarev has >no grip safety>a stupid magazine safety >no thumb saftey>a self contained hammer group Its like saying the Arisaka is basically a Kar98 because it was influenced by the Mauser action
>>62801346>>62801367It’s for chihuahuas and violent Asians. I’m 6’3” 240lbs, so I don’t imagine it’s comfortable for everyone IWB
>>62801502Retard thats an m70a and its also 9mm It says so on the slide
>>62801518Still a Tokarev pistol.
>>62801514I have no confidence that it'll work well on violent asians.
>>62801543Its not "old milsurp" though. Its an entirely commercial thing which is also only for import purposes
>>62801556^this. Safeties are required due to atf import laws. t. m88a owner
>>62801165nope... never had a pistol that has malfunctioned more than this one.
>>62801564yeah, the anon posting stock images doesn't get that though
>>62801518The M57A has that same safety and is in 7.62mm.>>62801556I'm referring to the sketchy as fuck import frame safeties you can see on various milsurp Tokarevs, but which the M57A or M70A do NOT have.Old military Tokarev pistols have no safeties (and are not drop safe), and importers grafted on unreliable safeties to clear them for importation requirements.This is all a moot point anyway because Tokarevs are still relics, and there's no real good modern pistols available in 7.62mm
>>62801397I think the industry started pushing 5.7 and 10mm handguns a few years ago in response to the Floyd riots. Now things are trending toward 9mm micro-compacts because people can't afford to shoot anything else right now.
>>62801582Norinco np762. Good luck getting one in the states though.
>>62801165That's not a Browning HiPower though.Also fuck FN. The Ruger version is more aesthetic. Even the PSA version is. And the Tisas. And the S&W.
>>62801642I'm quite awestruck at how the Mk.1 and Mk.2 Five Seven look pretty good, but then the Mk.3 is an ugly angular disaster which isn't even properly compatible with older mags because FN added a needless tiny bit more length to the grip, specifically FOR these ungodly aesthetics.
>>62801230>what's your MO?Jannie engagement thread
>>62801723The looks of the MRD have grown on me but there's no denying it's ridiculously BLOATED for the cartridge. The S&W does it right, very slim and short slide.
>>62801620That one exists, but as said not in the US.Also I don't really like Sig P226s or their clones, and I don't really want a Norinco pistol for something modern.
>>62801165>The best handgun ever madeFor women, European men and faggot Americans, yes.Real men carry a .45
>>62802242If you re affirm you gender identity with the type of gun you own you're probably a faggot.
>>62802242Even fag Americans will buy 9mm and .40 over 5.7mm, it has never been a popular cartridge.
>>62802273Now that cpr is reasonable and there are more options I have been seriously considering getting one.I have 9mm and .45 already, no desire for .40 or .357 Sig.Maybe 10mm.
>>62802293If you want one just because, sure, but 5.7mm really is a popgun round, don't fall for the marketing.
>>62802313I was going to post about how I would have dove in earlier if they had not classified 5.7 AR uppers as firearms.But then I checked and apparently they are not?I've been operating under false premises for over 3 years now.
>>62802263If you ever use the phrase "gender identity" you should jump off a 10+ story building.
>>62802413hit a nerve there faggot?
>>62801360>numerous actual field operators complained that you consistently needed to put a dozen rounds into a guy with a P90Genuinely curious on this. The only time soldiers and this caliber met that I know of is the ft. hood shooting where it was quite effective.
>>62803089Its been used in a lot of other contexts, anons just draw from police use which is never equivalent to combat. Commandos used it in the siege of the Japanese embassy in Peru 1997 and killed several terrorists with it. Its been in use by Turkish SF in raids against Kurds as well. General assessment is that it works just fine so long as you take advantage of the high capacity and low recoil and dont use it like a rifle.
>>62803089>>62803177
>>62801214>only cost $350Really didn't know how good we had it when these things were only $150 just a couple years ago. Wish I got a chink one too, but my Yugo does the job.
>>62803188There was never supposed to be an actual combat advantage to using PDWs. They were intended for tank crews and motor pool guys who would almost never engage in CQC, and therefore didn't need something as cumbersome as an M16, but wanted something with more range and capacity than a 9mm handgun. When NATO canceled the PDW solicitation, FNH and H&K were forced to try to market those guns to law enforcement and special forces.
>>62803260I don't think they were particularly good for that role either, just devise an extra lightweight AR15 or AR18. 10.5" and lightweight barrel profile, no quad-rail, and then do a modern take on the old Colt Moderator, a flash hider with a length of blast chambers to dramatically tame flash and sound, and to add some back pressure for improving reliability.
>>62803188Sounds like a skill issue. Fort hood disagrees. Many special ops guys loved the mp7 . Just git gud.
>>62803369What you're forgetting is that most of cueball's targets were completely unarmed, he had them at his mercy and could shoot and shoot at his leisure.Also, if you ask people who survived Ft. Hood, what they took from the experience weapons wise, it wasn't so much that they needed a Five Seven because it was so good (some got one), rather they came to the conclusion that they needed a carry pistol with high capacity like that. The Five Seven holds 20+1rds, which is pretty cool, but you can get 20rd or 21rd magazines for various good 9mm pistols, and they're just a tiny bit longer than flush 17rd or 18rd mags.Maybe you're sold on 5.7mm from an anecdotal understanding of a spree shooting, but having seen the ballistics demonstrated in different ways, gel or otherwise (not just on video either), and read accounts from people who used the P90 and MP7 in combat, I would never trust it.
>>62803369Also, which special ops guys? Those who loaded with subsonics for suppressed use where they would be removing unsuspecting sentries? I'll bet it does ok there, but so has .22LR
>>62801231Double up on earpro btw. Those things are loud and flashy as fuck. Very pleasant to shoot otherwise though
>>62803301Using a rifle caliber out of a 10 inch barrel is fucking retarded unless you use 300blk or 9x39. If you care about proper CQC controlling your fire and reducing concussion and flash is just as important as OAL.
>>62801397The patent expired on it, that's why more people are trying out the 'new' meme round
>>62801165It's not even the best 5.7 handgun and I say that as a 5.7fag>>62801360>Given that numerous actual field operators complained that you consistently needed to put a dozen rounds into a guy with a P90Post actual data and firsthand testimonials not screenshots of arfcom posts where a guy knew a guy who knew a guy lol. You'll find that there aren't any.Also worth pointing out that there's at this point an insane number of examples of police magdumping 9mm into suspects without killing them, just as there are an insane number of examples of people being shot once with 9mm and dying.There is, to my knowledge, exactly 1 example of bodycam footage of an MP7 being used on a person and it incapacitates and effectively kills him in a single burst lasting less than a second.5.7 and 4.6 were pinky ever supposed to be comparably effective to 9mm while being higher capacity and lighter recoiling, while also having irrelevant hyperspecific body armor deafeating capabilities that were already obsolete and irrelevant by the time the trials were done.All the data I've ever seen indicates they accomplish this.>>62803301A p90 or MP7 with a suppressor on it is as long as a Mk18 without a suppressor on it retard. With everything you're talking about you just having a lighter unsuppressed M4-length weapon which again is not conducive to the parameters of the PDW concept.
>He can't CC a chrysler 300 chimpout ARPSmh yall some weak ass niggas fr
>>628034525.56mm outperforms both 5.7mm and .300BLK out of a 10.5" barrel.
>>62803468>A p90 or MP7 with a suppressor on it is as long as a Mk18 without a suppressor on it retard. And the Mk.18 will have MUCH better terminal ballistics than both of them.
>>62803571And? Are you really that concerned with terminal ballistics at dick-in-ass distances? Shooting accurately, faster and better count for more.
>>62801165>Poorfag copers need not apply.But I almost got one for $399.99 on the 4th of July sale. Hardly that expensive.
>>62803468The fact of the matter is that 9mm sucks. It’s on the hair-splitting edge of “good enough,” but it’s not what anyone would consider to be a manstopper. From the mid-80’s until about 2015, everyone was trying to find a better alternative. The only thing that really changed is that the FBI came out and endorsed 9mm due to political correctness.
>>62803579No fucking shit sherlock literally nobody is arguing that's not the case lmaoThere are still numerous contexts where the more compact form factor and/or suppressability make it a more practical option and plenty of people who kill people for a living make the choice to use it and make up for the worse terminal performance with lighter recoil and higher capacity. And it clearly gets the job done or these guys would be holding mk18s or 416s in this photo>>62803900This post is just flat out retarded lol. I'm not gonna sit here and debate the most popular pistol cartridge on the planet with you except to say that by every metric that matters 5.7 works about as well. If you think neither is good enough well, enjoy whatever retard shit you carry instead dude nobody fuckin cares lmao.
>>62801214The only people I know who own this gun are communist transsexuals and I'm not even joking.
>>62801165REAL TALK ONLYHow does it compare to the newer much cheaper 5.7 pistols on the market, namely the ruger and s&w? Still worth the $1k+ price tag?
>>62804188The Ruger has a shit trigger (there are aftermarket kits for this), supposedly the Smith is really good but I haven't shot one.The PSA Rock is shockingly good for being as cheap as it is.No, I would not buy a Five-seveN in 2024 for what FN is selling them for.
>>628011655.7 is too small, but 9mm is too big. I need a cartridge that's in between the two.
Idk wtf that is but it looks like the same plastic barf as everything else. Also 2 world wars.
>>62804258.30 pooper carry. Shame its only available in 1 decent gun and its a micro
>>62804262This but unironically. It’s funny how /k/eddit always claimed 1911s were boomer trash until wristlet guccifags started buying them in 9mm, and Turks started making them cheaply. Now all of a sudden they’re the best handguns ever as long as they’re plastic 9mm double stacks like everything else.
>>62804316Truly feminine like the moon, waxing and waning going from one polar opposite to the other
>>62804316>>62804352This is not how I have experienced it over the years.
>>62803188ty for sating my curiosity>>62803369Pat Rogers agrees it seems. But more skill is more money.
>>62804400Again what I'll say is, what he's sharing there is a screenshot of an arfcom thread full of dudes repeating stuff they heard, almost all of it you can't find a primary source: I've looked.Take it skeptically, especially given the continued popularity and utilization of PDWs in tier 1 units
>>62804262W
>>62804188Seen a few reviews featuring all 3 of them and even when not considering the price everyone recommends the S&W over the FN, with the Ruger being about on par with FN. So at $1200 or whatever they're going for now, there's zero reason to go with the FN when you can get something just as good, if not better, for around half the price.
>>62804262Where's our double-stacked 1911s with full steel or alloy frames? We were robbed, something like this but Commander length would be an extraordinary carry pistol.
>>62803872Why did PSA of all people finally get it right and make a 5.7 with the appearance of a firearm that was made on purpose?The SW 5.7 and Ruger 5.7 look like melting tumorous 9mms, and the FN 5.7 looks like a sci fi toy with its plastic slide cover.
>>62804400>>62804515https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NPvt35t5hME
>>62803676Yes, actually. Any decent 5.56mm carbine will already be easy to shoot anyway, you could even make it a short and light bullpup, getting some more barrel length, where a moderator could make report yet milder.You could have a short, light, and handy PDW which would be unobtrusive, yet which would do way better than a P90 by far, and be basically as easy to use.
>>62805297>doesn't do a lot of damage>I think it performed pretty well
>>62801642I've held all of them and I can tell you flat out that the PSA is the best of them
>>62801824it's kind of sharp imofeels weird to hold but not badI don't like it
>>62801360>>62803089>>62803177>Given that numerous actual field operators complained that you consistently needed to put a dozen rounds into a guy with a P90Mind you a lot of 'actual field operators' are fucking retarded given that not a single military or tactical course features a comprehensive firearm mechanics class, especially for a force so shitty they buy into P90 fad. Also, contrary to popular belief, soldier or tactical law enforcement training and employment do not feature any capacity for Research, let alone comparisons. At best they have 'experiences' and at worst anecdotes from a buddy.It is entirely likely that, like boomer fudds most 'cop operators' are, they bought civilian-restricted AP ammo thinking that if its for LEO only its actually a death ray, and then gave some skinnie the full treatment of being pierced by hardened core .22 projectile. They don't know that lethality of AP round depends almost entirely on it being deformed by the armor layer first, or that multiple manufacturers produce seriously effective HP ammo for 5.7mm. Of course non-deforming .22 projectile that just zips through your body will not put you down unless these .22 + whatever energy cavitation can strike an incapacitating organ like heart, spine or brain.On the other hand its absolutely hilarious how they compare them to .223 or 5.56, which they were likely using with hollow-points or ball ammo, even the SOF bullet is an open-tip non-hardened design. They'd have exact same experience as with P90 if they used M855 or M995.In short, 5.7mm and 4.6mm have polarizing responses exactly because these guns are not retard-proof. In 5.56, only the shittiest hunting rounds will fail to penetrate an IIIA vest, and only the shittiest ball or steel ammo will fail to damage something important out of a 10.5" at 50. With the PDWs you need to have access to both very expensive LEO-only AP and very expensive HP, and failure of choice will lead to 'skinnies'.
>>62803960Matt and Ivan
>>62804173Do you go shooting with a lot of communist transsexuals, Anon?
>>62807179They get their femboy fix somewhere
>>62807017>They'd have exact same experience as with P90 if they used M855Complete nonsense, M855 will cavitate plenty, it'll only icepick at extended ranges.
>>62807179do you not? they give great head
>>62807347So how you doing, karl? Still with the same bull, or did you get another?
>>62807337What's nonsense is believing that shit, when everyone who could abandoned the M885 for either A1 or various Mk loadings like SOST or Mk262. Most of the magic of 10" 5.56 rifle comes from accounts of shooting unarmored targets with open tip lead, not M885. Why, you ask? Because 'extended range' for 10.5" AR-15 is 100 yards, and even then you can't compare it to open-tip and hollow points in terms of effect.
>>62808921NTA. While I agree with everything in your post, M855 will (generally) usefully cavitate and fragment inside the ranges that people are employing MP7s and P90s even from a 11.5in while 4.6 and 5.7 will not even with (most) open tip loads. But generally isn't good enough which is why M855 isn't either - it's not that M855 doesn't usually remotely wound and achieve prompt incapacitation at ranges where it's still going fast, it's that it usually does but doesn't often enough that it's a problem in addition to having trouble going fast in the first place.I completely agree with your sentiment, that these rounds are all polarising because they aren't retard-proof, but not all loads are equally retard-resistant. M855 is much more retard-resistant than nearly all PDW loads simply by virtue of both having a penetrator and reaching the velocity needed for frag, things which are mutually exclusive for PDW loads.The real elephant in the room is the 10.3-10.5in length because of muh MK18 clone barrels. Literally just one more inch is all that's needed to stumble over the line for a mostly retard-proof close-quarters carbine for police work, but muh SF worship takes priority.
>>62801360>If there was something akin to the Beretta 92 or Glock 17 but chambered for 7.62mm Tokarev, high capacity and modern, I could see a real appeal in the cartridge.That’s basically .357 sig. You’d have higher capacity with 7.62 tok but the grip has to be longer front to back. If you want a lower weight bullet for less recoil, .22 TCM is better than 7.62 tok and 5.7 but it’s only chambered in a few 1911s
>>62808921M855 is definitely not the best of anything and is worth replacing, but that it's an icepicker is a dramatically exaggerated myth, you will see consistently useful cavitation with an M4A1 or even an Mk.18 within 100yds.>>62809048>it's not that M855 doesn't usually remotely wound and achieve prompt incapacitation at ranges where it's still going fast, it's that it usually does but doesn't often enough that it's a problem in addition to having trouble going fast in the first place.Can you cite something that isn't old Remington or H&K marketing, or later NGSW contestant marketing, for M855 having troubles with cavitation and fragmentation at CQB ranges?I would certainly not oppose another inch of barrel length though for a 5.56mm PDW, Deltas largely settled on 12.5" for carbines because they found it was the best balance for terminal ballistics and reliability.>>62809124A Beretta 92 in .22TCM seems like an attractive idea tbqhwy.At least for playing around with.
>>62809124>.357 sig beretta 96My penis is engorged with blood
>>62809251I've heard of one or two one-offs where someone rebarreled a 96 to 10mm or .357 Sig, and it seems clearly doable, but Beretta themselves have no interest in it as far as I know. With a Brigadier slide it should be just fine, though with a capacity of just 12rds (most mags are 10rds), it leaves a bit to be desired, particularly with how the regular 9mm Beretta 92 can actually fit a whopping 18rds with modern magazines and retain the same size as regular old 15rd ones. It feels like it should be possible to squeeze at least 14rds of .40, .357, or 10mm inside of the grip of the good old Beretta, then maybe 15rds with a small baseplate extension.
>>62809048I do agree with all of this, and as a result its rather pointless to compare the P90 and such to SBR AR-15 by mere fact that a 5.7x28mm AR-15 is not an adequate combat arm, even if we equalize the bullet types.The advantage here is not that 5.56 and 5.7x28mm can compete in terminal ballistics, its that 5.56 can't compete in size and profile. Hell, one can be fired from a pistol, but of course the P90 is the most effective. With MP7 it is extremely light, and is thus popular due to pursuit of work comfort - rounds and weapon weigh very little, and its even balanced over the pistol grip for possibility of one-handed firing.A 5.56 gun simply cant achieve it, but it is more effective terminally because its a rifle with all that entails. So if there's operational need that excludes the AR15 carbine, these cartridges have advantages over other handguns and submachineguns as long as you don't try to shoot everything with extremely tiny steel rods and use duty rounds for these duty firearms... Which can actually be counter-intuitive since they're "PDWs" and "Must pierce armor", as devised by coldwar-era retards who thought that they'd be effective against vests that stop M193 on a good day.
>>62809190>is a dramatically exaggerated mythBecause it was based on experience by retards, who complained about having to shoot someone again and again until he stopped fighting. Does that remind you of the fucking 'word of mouth' screencap from above? They actually started developing replacements for it instead of just accepting that a .223 caliber small arm doesnt one-shot turn people into giblets.These sorts of discussions are always awful because they always appeal to authority of a serviceman, who often has no idea why he's holding this weapon, what sort of projectile it drops on people and how this thing actually kills them. Cops are not recruited for intelligence and infantry doesn't call for high ASVAB, and even then once you're in service you shoot whats issued, even if you're super special.On the other hand, a civilian enthusiast is unlikely to shoot people with it, so the only actual possible way to gauge round's effectiveness is to perform research and data collection, which only manufacturer or auditing government agency would care to do. And since FN still gets contracts for both ammo and the guns, with P90 apparently being their most-sold model, either nobody gives a shit or the system is just fine.
I have a Five Seven and it's a good gun but fuck the ammo pricesI'd rather stick with my Glock 19, Beretta 92, or VP9 with cheap ass 9mm
>>62801214TUIs and Extreme Penetrators say hi
>>62801214Why isn't 7.62 Tok more common? You have it for a .30 pistol, 9mm Luger for .35, .40S&W and .45 ACPThen 5.7 if you're s faggot who wants a .22 centerfire
>>62809838.25ACP is .22 centerfire already
>>62809530>The advantage here is not that 5.56 and 5.7x28mm can compete in terminal ballistics, its that 5.56 can't compete in size and profileI made this point up the thread and was met with crickets lol. I'd guess they similarly won't have a rebuttal for you because there isn't one.People don't like the MP7 or P90 because they're as good or better at killing people as a mk18. They like them because they're good enough at killing people while being really tiny, high capacity, no-recoil, and much easier to suppress effectively than a 5.56 gun.I like my Mk18, love it even. It's as small as an AR can get without being fucking awful, and honestly it's fucking awful without a suppressor which takes it right back up to being an M4-sized gun lol.
>>62803188To be fair, comparing a P90 or a MP7 to a M4 is dumb. They were never meant to be a rifle replacement. A P90 to a MP5 and a MP7 to a pistol are more fair comparisons. Now you can still question how effective the rounds are, and I do, but rifle comparisons aren’t fair.
>>62810399The MP7 is about the size of a full grown Uzi, it's not really pistol sized.
>my favorite gun is best gun>if you don't agree you're poor
>>62809190>Can you cite something that isn't old Remington or H&K marketing, or later NGSW contestant marketing, for M855 having troubles with cavitation and fragmentation at CQB ranges?Yes, but it's all in debriefs and operational reports from GWOT stuff, so ymmv on getting at it. Beyond that, there are slides from before, during and after M855A1 development from PM small arms that directly or obliquely reference the known deficiencies, like picrel from the IIS slide deck. Finally, there's testing out there for the frag thresholds for SS109 (ie M855) that basically show 2500fps for appreciable fragmentation and general testing out there for meaningful cavitation thresholds (which are complex because they're a function of both velocity and meplat) which show the st3p function at about 2700fps for a bullet with M855 form (and after that it's just a question of mv vs barrel length).Sorry for kind of shonky reply, busy but phone posting instead of no reply.
>>62810465Thank you. Still not 100% convinced M855A1 is the best choice, however.
>The only positive data point 5.7 shills have to point to is a mass shooting 15 years agoNever ceases to make me lol
>>62810478>Still not 100% convinced M855A1 is the best choice, howeverIt's not but it's a fucksight better than M855 bro.Mk262 is the best choice.
>be me>work innafunshop >only on saturdays so i can get shit at cost>mfw we got a five seven mk3>mfw i really want it>mfw i dont buy it cause havent saved enough money yetShits fucked but atleast i get to finger fuck it all the time. One day ill buy one, even if its just so i can relive all my times operating operationally on black ops 2
>>62810478Had some time to go digging. This is probably a pretty good place to start branching into the different studies, reports etc on it. This powerpoint (and the associated Shatz one) were unironically the culminating point where all the bad shit with M855 and short barrels (and M4) in early GWOT finally came to a head, everyone was forced to admit that the situation was completely fucked, and the M855A1 and NGSW projects were born.https://web.archive.org/web/20150216072859/http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf
>>62810966Man, I hadn't read and the Schatz one in years before I dug this up for this thread. It's absolutely wild how they simultaneously got everything they wanted and none of what they wanted. I was mostly over Textron getting shafted, but this stuff makes me really remember why it seemed so clearly the best option to me. All things being equal, it was basically _the_ implementation that both of these guys wanted.
>>62801723At least it's optics ready
My favorite thing about the 5.7 is how much it makes 9mmlets seethe>stopping power don't real it's all about capacity and velocity>NO NOT LIKE THAT
>>62810478>>62810555M193 supremacyridiculous how the fucking Belgian attempt to ruin the AR-15 with their garbage round got so much traction
>>62810966I absolutely adore that this article doesn't, at all, address armor penetration, as M885 can penetrate some types of ceramic plates and is already barrier blind, urging to replace it with fragmenting ammo that expands 1" in even though military setting features armored goons often behind solid cover or inside of vehicles.SOF can ambush targets while they're naked in bed. Line infanry is likely to be the ones ambushed naked in bed.SOST seems to be the way forward though I'd love to see data on the half-caliber penetrator's actual effect on target post-penetration.
>>62811385I genuinely don't think you read it properly. He's talking about M855 (not A1, which exists because of him and did not exist when it was written) which is not barrier blind, has terminal ballistics problems he goes into some detail about anddoesn't penetrate any plates the US cares about. He explicitly argues for M993 and M995 as a regular stopgap, 6.8x43 as an SF stopgap, and 6.8x43 AP and OTM as the medium term goal for service use. It's also part 2 of a much longer presentation.What actually happened was that both his criticisms (inadequate AP availability in the short term and M855 lethality longer term) got rolled up into the EPR program that produced M855A1 as a stopgap while the SPC program got rolled into a full blown CCS. During that process Xi Jinping took over the premiership of China and started Wolf Diplomacy or whatever, Russia invaded Crimea and the Donbas and everyone realised Real War™ might happen again against people with plates. So 6.8x43 and the CCS got Pacific Pivoted and became NGSW and Fuck Plates, I want whatever I shoot to die edition.Read properly and in context the way that document (and pt1) ultimately became M855A1 and NGSW is both very interesting and a pretty obvious and natural consequence of what was going on.
>>62810555I wonder if a steel penetrator could be added in a Mk.262 Mod. 1 style of projectile and not have it adversely affect its terminal performance?That load is very good, but it's also a Match load and is autistically consistent because of this, which is great for target shooting and your designated marksman, but not necessary for the M4, M16, or M249, so I think that it would be possible to make a regular "grunt" load with a projectile like this which isn't going to be as expensive or time consuming to produce.
>>62803188>spraying the upper torso with bullets>basically magdumping I am sorry but if they shoot 30+ rounds into one guy why not simply hose his head with 10-15 shots and get the same result? 3 hits with 4.6 or 5.7mm should be enough to stop even bear if you hit the brain.
>>62803439germany uses the 4.6 in the military role and in police roles for SWAT type units as well
>>62801824I wish the SW didn't have the fuckhuge thread at the end of the barrel, I'm never going to suppress 5.7 ever. The mags suck ass to load, and you pretty much have to have the slide locked back to load a full mag or you slap the shit out of it to get it to lock. The gap between the slide and frame is fucking retarded, you can't see it in your picture but if you look at it from the side you can see daylight all the way through it.Otherwise yeah the SW is pretty great and I like the rotating barrel. Also why the FUCK did I have to wait 700+ seconds to post?
>>62811977Because you didn't give them your military .ua or .il email.
>>62801165Why'd they have to go and make so soulless.
>>62812046It's a shame honestly, I bought my Mark 2 when it got on sale because I knew that it would be my last chance to get oneI love the look, mainly because of CS GO and Canaan
>>62811274I own guns in both Calibers and I have nothing against 5.7 except for the goddamn price
>>62809048Agreed, 10.5 is garbage. 12.5 is minimum for 5.56 and you aren't ever noticing a 2" barrel difference in terms of maneuverability or weight.
>>62809505I thought the only difference was slide and locking? You cannot use standard 92 mags in a Brig?
>>62810478M855A1 exists to satisfy Hague conventions if fighting another signatory.
>>62812227The US didn't sign that part of Hague.
>>62812046I have a mk1 with the og black box, I'll take a picture later if I remember, the new one does look and feel like shit by comparison. I also have a s&w57, still not as cool but better than the other copies.
>>62812680It voluntarily complies, but the statement is wrong anyway since A1 is a HP round.
>>62812999*GP
>>62801214same
>>62801512 Correct, the Arisaka is the perfection of the mauser action
>>62804173I own a Tok to execute communists and transsexuals one day. Say what you will about Soviet guns, they are excellent at killing commies.
>>62813881So is hunger, just let em starve, it's their favorite past time
>>62803676Your potential for one-shot-stops increases with terminal ballistics, which should absolutely be your priority when your potential for getting hit is measured in ms.
>>62809190>A Beretta 92 in .22TCM seems like an attractive idea tbqhwy.There is .22TCM 9R which isn’t as good, but gets pretty close. In theory you could get a barrel made for a 92 and a lighter recoil spring. Mags “should” work with it.
>>62803260>There was never supposed to be an actual combat advantage to using PDWs.Apart from cops and other door kickers. But it's a peak 90's concept in that ubiquitous ballistic plate armor obsoleted it pretty quickly in the 2000s
>>62816053I like the idea of a .22TCM but necked down to .32 instead. 60gr .312 bullets would do a better job in a handgun length barrel. While they wouldn't get quite as high in velocity, they'd be far more energy efficient.
>>62809797*xtreme defenders. The penetrators can in some calibers for they are generally too heavy and slow, and they all have more frontal surface area. I love the 68gr XDs. My reloads with longshot are fucking LOUD though.
>>62816162anon you're describing 30 luger
>>62810448That’s fair. You’re right it’s not pistol sized but I think it’s the still the general comparison/replacement. It’s like the M1 carbine vs 1911 instead of M1 carbine vs Garand. Even though the MP7 is bigger and weights 2-3lbs more than a pistol, you can replace a pistol with it without too much hassle. The M1 carbine for guys who would have only had a 1911 is a fantastic upgrade even though it’s rifle length and weighs 5lbs. After typing that it’s kind of a rambling mess but I think you’ll get it.
>>62809579>On the other hand, a civilian enthusiast is unlikely to shoot people with it, so the only actual possible way to gauge round's effectiveness is to perform research and data collection, which only manufacturer or auditing government agency would care to doThat’s a good point. I’ll add that we can also gather data through hunting which I think is valuable. It’s different than combat since you have time to be picky with shots and can place them well, but you still get performance on flesh. Hog hunting has been great on bullet analysis too. If a round penetrates, expands or fragments, and kills a 150-200lb hog, it’ll work great on a person too. Plus with hog hunting there’s a good amount of running shots so you won’t always have perfect shot placement.
>>62811274What seething? Also show me 5.7 velocities from carry sized pistols. The FN is larger than a G17. Ruger’s is even bigger. PSA’s rock is G17 sized. Realistically, no one CC’s full sized pistols all the time. If it’s visible in an OWB holster then you can open carry a rifle too if you’re really worried about performance or shooting at distances. I’ll admit for open carrying a pistol, this is where 5.7 shines. Point is, 9mm and other more traditional rounds do better (proportionally) from short carry barrels which is where any of us are most likely to use them. If you gimp 5.7s velocity with a 3.5” barrel then you really are just shooting spicy .22 mag.
>>62816162I like that a lot. I’m also a .32 slut though
>>62816170Oh shit you're right. It needs a +p variant to be competitive, though.
FNers are just faggots. Simple as. Squishy squishy.
>>62816245the Rock is almost 10 inches long my dude>>62816273yeah, .30 Super Luger or whatever
>>62816282>the Rock is almost 10 inches long my dudeNo it’s not. The threaded barrel is 5.2”. How are you getting 10” total.
>>62816398sorry, I guess I was measuring with my optic includedit's 9" long I guess
>>62816424Show more feet.
>>62816483no
>>62816198Guess its time to google 5.7 and 4.6 hunting performance. I am not an avid hunter but for some reason I suspect that dumping lead fragments into meat isn't ideal so it likely won't be a defensive load.
Langdonstein ports are pretty decent.
>>62816162>>62816170>>62816273>>62816282YOU FUCKERS ARE GOING RIGHT BACK TO 7.62x25mm TOKAREV AGAIN, THE CARTRIDGE ALREADY EXISTS GODDAMMIT
>>62816552it's pretty good at varminting apparentlyanything the size of a medium dog, but this is hearsay>>62817068yeah okay now chamber a gun in it that doesn't blow giant ass
>>62817073THAT'S THE ENTIRE DISCUSSIONWHAT IF 7.62mm TOKAREV IN A MODERN HIGH CAPACITY PISTOL
>>62817086no, that's the other thread, you're in the 5.7 fellating thread right nowyou got your wires crossed, lol, I had that happen to me and started going on about TZD on /sci/ yesterday lol, they were very disturbed
>>62801165What is it with euro companies producing a gun thats ahead of its time but then just never doing anything else with it? Amerislop countries usually put out horseshit but then incrementally improve it until its good, but euros seem to rest on laurels
>>62816552My hunting comments were directed towards .223/5.56. There is some with 5.7 but I’ve never seen anything shot larger than a coyote. I can imagine anyone hunts with 4.6.
>>62817155>centerfire .22 Magnum>ahead of its timeIt can be debated as a PDW cartridge, but it's such a shit pistol cartridge. The FNX is just a better pistol in any caliber.
>>62817760>centerfire .22 MagnumIf you're comparing the 5.7 pistol ballistics to a .22 Mag rifle. People who say that might as well say .308 is just a longer 7.62x39 because it has the same muzzle energy with half the barrel length.
>>62801269
>>62818783>174 posts in the 5.7x28 thread before the cute anime witch girl was postedgrim, /k/ is dead
>>62818791What about the hot action anime girl?>>62812060
>>62819024You are not privy to the historical legacy of that anime witch
>>62819201there are fewer of us left with each year, long gone are the days of meplat and boof
>>62818762>If you're comparing the 5.7 pistol ballistics to a .22 Mag rifle.Which is not really that great.
>>62819201I know where she's from, I just dont care about Touhou
>>62819201The more I've come to learn about people who call themselves Marisa, the more I've grown to dislike all of them. I'd rather not spend any time thinking about him.
>>62801496On this day in 2009, Nidal Hasan killed 13 fellow soldiers. Gen. Casey said, “What happened at Ft. Hood was a tragedy, but I believe it would be an even greater tragedy if our diversity becomes a casualty."https://x.com/FrankDeScushin/status/1853825532174950464
>>62801505everyone shot center of mass fucking died with 1 shot.how do you get better performance than that?
>>62801165no thanks.
>>62801214Good for killing niggas in video games
>>62804975I wouldn't know, I only buy 1911s. Para doesn't have one in Commander?
I have a Norinco Tok, but im really interested in the M&P 5.7 is it worth getting?
