How would a military organization work when officers outnumber enlisted personnel by over 10 to 1?
>>62857640Starfleet's not military.
>>62857640it's already workingever seen an officer die? nope just enlisted personnel
>>62857640It would work poorly and officers would start having to do enlisted men's jobs.
>>62857654lol okay
>>62857674Crazy things like sending flagship captains and doctors on espionage missions
>>62857640Why would anyone enlist, dooming themselves to years of menial/dangerous tasks in a world where money doesn't exist and getting all the cool jobs is entirely down to family connections?
>>62857696Well, or just lower ranking / less useful officers cleaning latrines, picking up bodies, and other shit grunt jobs. If someone is a doctor they're so valuable they'd likely never serve outside of a medical tent or advisory role unless we had, for some strange reason, a surplus of doctors in the military.
>>62857766Intrinsic motivationIn an interstellar state numbering probably tens of billions of humans alone, you're gonna find a few million people who just like exploring, have a patriotic drive to serve the federation or just want responsibility and power like you get as an officer.
>>62857696>have hundreds/thousands of crewmen you can send on away missions>nope lets just send out our most vital crew members to do grunt workI love classic startrek but my god this shit will never not bother me.
Why does starfleet have grunts fixing mechanical issues by hand when they have teleportation and matter-energy conversionWhy does an officer have to input course or engine changes by hand when the captain orders it instead of his order being interpreted by the ship's systems
>>62857640>when officers outnumber enlisted personnel by over 10 to 1?The TV shows focus on the officers and this makes you beg the question?>>62857829That's kinda how movies and TV shows work though. And let's not forget that classic star trek is infamous for killing off random unnamed crewmen. It is the origin of the "redshirt" meme after all.
>>62857845>Why does starfleet have grunts fixing mechanical issues by hand when they have teleportation and matter-energy conversionNo reasonEvery now and then there is even an episode where they do in fact solve such a problem with teleportation and it always comes as a big shock to peopleFrankly, if I lived in a star trek world I'd even let it beam shit and dirt from me. Imagine never needing to go to the toilet, wash or shower.>Why does an officer have to input course or engine changes by handMaybe they're just double checking what the computer said anywayLike, picard says "set a course to earth", the computer instantly plots the course and destination, and the ensign just checks whether it's the orbit the captain probably wants. Frankly, considering how ridiculously quickly stuff like that gets resolved, it makes more sense that way. Imagine setting a course to a planet like that - you'd at least need to enter the name into a keyboard, but the ensigns always just do one or two movements and the course is set.
>>62857825The development of holodecks was an evolutionary bottleneck for humanity because everyone who wasn't highly self-motivated just went in and never came out.
>>62857872The holodeck is like super new in TNG though.
>>62857872
>>62857640Just look at the CAF
>>62857640There's plenty of enlisted men, you just don't see them because the show isn't about grunts and laborers.
The federation wouldn't have a medieval command structure to begin with. Even right now it's a vestigial holdover of literal aristocracies. Discrimination would be a little less blatant in the Utopian future. Like Starfleet Academy types being nepobabies and fasttracked over careerists.
>>62857766according to canon everyone keeps dying and being replaced by transporter clones all the time anyway
>>62857872What do Holodecks really offer besides pornography? Like you can be in Tokyo instantly and get real ramen with your neetbux. You can see the pyramids, you can hang out on the Mediterranean. You can go surfing in Maui.You're not going to be a shut-in. You have free therapy.
>>62857954Transporter cloning really puts the world upside down. Why would the dominion clone or assimilate humanoids if they can just do transporter clones? For that matter, wouldn't starfleet do it too in a pinch (unless they have so many officers, they're not a bottleneck).
>>62857917I doubt we're ever solving nepotism or authoritarianism in the military. Militaries come from Aristocracy. In the very early bronze age, Sumarians would have a slave labour army and pay mercenaries from nomadic tribes to do the fighting along enemy cities walls. This dynamic evolved into people getting paid for war and as chariots developed people needed longer training for wars. The modern army made the individual soldier much less valuable and require less training, but that will just return it to the very early mass conscription style of the classical world, not an egalitarian military. That just wouldn't work, because you need too down command. The best alternative to top down command was pioneered by the Germans in WW1. It required highly trained officers to make independent leadership decisions, not voting or egalitarian actions, because that would make a military insanely inefficient and slow to react.
>>62857866They also have little robot drone things designed specifically for fixing things, which they did exactly once.
>>62857955>pornographyYou're thinking is far too limited here. It's heavily implied that holonovels have all but supplanted most other forms of entertainment like video games, film and even theater to an extent.
>>62857955>What do Holodecks really offer besides pornography?You can real-life combat larp.
>>62857955>What do Holodecks really offer besides pornography?You can perfectly simulate any combat environment without fear of death. It'd be THE perfect tool for training for any branch of military.
>>62857955It seems like every other episode the holodeck was causing some sort of ship ending / life threatening malfunction. The first thing you'd get rid of / limit access to would be the holodeck if you're smart.
>>62857872This is definitely the Ferengi master plan.
>>62857640I do believe he is the most based &/k/-pilled person starfleet apart from Sisko but he's a religious nutjob by claiming to be a prophet.How many transporter malfunctions or POWs he disposed of?
>>62858063Imagine what holodeck milsim events must look like...
>>62858175Lots of walking
>>62857872>>62857877>>62857955>>62858062>>62858063>>62858093>>62858145>>62858175
>>62857640It's like NASA. There's been scores (if not hundreds) of astronauts who were military officers. But how many enlisted astronauts have there ever been? Zero.
>>62857976They genuinely avoid the subject because they don't like to think about the implications of themselves being day old transporter clones. At least that's how it came across to me when they coerced the tng season 2 doctor to kill herself via a transporter and how they reacted to the Riker clone incident.
of course, the moment they do anything about the enlisted crew, half the fanbase throw a shit-fit.
>>62857853>>62857829TOS was better at having random officers (with speaking parts!) that you never see again, and sometimes they even have major roles in the story. It adds a degree of realism that later series lack because it's not the same 6 people in every episode despite the ship supposedly having a crew of hundreds. Why isn't Chekov on the bridge this episode? It's not his shift this week. In TNG and Enterprise, the main characters will kick the extras off the bridge because apparently in Starfleet all the other helmsmen aboard only get to fly the ship in a straight line because anytime something actually happens Mayweather takes over.
>>62857640The hilarity of choosing OBrien when they couldn’t even decide if he was an ensign, LT or just plain enlisted Anyways there are probably hundreds of enlisted on ships but their stories are just really boring. Nobody wants to hear the story of Pajeet Kaur second grade night shift sewage technician
>>62857640>when officers outnumber enlisted personnel by over 10 to 1?It is kinda the bane of our times, warfare has become so technical that the ammount of NCOs and COs required for an army to function creates a strange pyramid shape where the lower ranks are still wide, but not as wide, and the pyramid quickly becomes a column until you reach the very top from a process that is just reaching its logical conclusion since the invention of gunpowder: The idea that you need people who are just extensions of command is anachronic.But then someone could point out that soldiers can still do a thousand courses, train and then train the already trained training and deploy to acquire experience, turning them into a professional force in which you can invest time and effort. Which does work, to an extent, because at some point you will reach a moment in which the skills you give to your enlisted demand better conditions and pay, or you are just paying education which turns your force into rented temporal professionals that will leave you in a constant cycle of teaching the same stuff to new people, hence becoming impossible to train someone to say be proficient in intelligence in 7 years.The solution, that does not step on anyone's toes is to make as many senior enlisted and COs as possible. The military retains its hierarchy, the people get a competitive reason to stay, and the lower ranks become either low level assistants and clerks of somekind or interns who you have to convince to stay, and this has been the philosophy for a while, but it actually disrupting military culture and is not that effective. Why? The military is paying so much for so many contractors, not because they necessarily like having civilians around but because there are certain skills and knowledge that are not properly cultivated within the force, i.e: If you find a data scientist, it will be a CO of some kind and it will be so despite being uniformed, not due to.
>>62858407How do we know we're not constantly being killed and reformed Langoliers-style other than the fact we don't perceive any lapse in our existence? And if that's enough for you to reject the possibility, then in what way is the transporter different? You go in and come out without experiencing any discontinuity (i.e. characters will arrive mid-word).>ah, we KNOW they're being disintegrated and then recreated from entirely different atomsBy why would that actually matter if you can't perceive any difference whatsoever?That all said, the transporters should have actually moved people physically. It's futuristic science-magic, the audience doesn't need to know how it works any more than we need to how tetyrons are generated.
>>62858457Quark's brother actually was a nightshift sewage technician
>>62858587Transporters are really just a plot device that the writers can use either as a storytelling tool or to reduce production costs. Having an actor "beam" to another place means you can just re-use the same 'ol special effect instead of filming a shuttle take off and land every time. And if the transporter would make something too easy the writers can just say it can't be used because of some technical mumbo-jumbo. They also make a great deus ex machina.
>>62858457There was an episode of Voyager about those guys. They all hated that Janeway had trapped them on the other side of the galaxy for reasons that only make sense to her. She rewarded them by forcing them all to go on an away mission her where she almost got them killed, again, the whole exercise only made sense to Janeway. The plasma manifold technicians (or whatever they were) were content to spend the entire voyage unnoticed.
>>62858063>>62858175I've always found it interesting that Starfleet apparently gives zero fucks about what people do in holodecks so long as it doesn't involve actual people; in one of the episodes it was a minor plot point that one of Worf's favorite programs was one where he played a ruthless conquerer butchering a city of civilians and half of the times the Holodeck/suites are mentioned in passing it's a porn joke.Like, would Starfleet even care if someone had a program where they played Gilles de Rais and you were expected to rape and/or murder dozens of children?
>>62857955Sure, all of that is nice, but the holodeck would let me entirely replace reality with a world where i have a loving elf wife and three children and fight dragons and shit, or a world where I'm the king of a fledgeling kingdom, or where I'm on a mission to slay god, or literally any other imaginary thing you could think of. All from one room.Seeing the pyramids is neat, being the architect for them is neater.
>>62858183https://youtu.be/g1HHaJ-ILXo
>>62858804In Worf's defense, the program 'Battle of Tong Vey' ends immediately after the 'conqueror' gives the order to slaughter everyone in the city.>Please, Kahless, don't let the prosecutor ask why that order is 'Computer load Worf Program Tong Vey 2: Blood on the Pavement'
>>62858457I think Roddenberry's original vision was that EVERYONE on board would be an officer. I guess in a post-scarcity society where education is essentially free except in an opportunity-cost sense, it kinda-sorta-maybe would make sense, but eh. Roddenberry had some weird ideas.
>>62857640he'll kill you if you annoy him enough. I saw it in an episode once
>>62858424>TOS was better at having random officers (with speaking parts!)>I'M VERY CURIOUS AS TO WHY...
>>62859450>Roddenberry had some weird ideas.Yet no gays. Weird.
>>62857640They don't, most series are set following the bridge crew but there are ~400 crew on the Enterprise.
>>62857853>stormtroopers cant hita meme, because they killed the blueshirts in ep4 just fine>redshirts cant liveredshirts suffered the most casualties because there were more redshirts than any other type of shirtin terms of ratio of number seen to number killed, its actually blue shirts who suffer the most casualties
>>62858424>>62859552What are you on about? TNG has a ton of those characters too. Even the ship's hairstylist has multiple appearances and dialogue.
>>62857985>Militaries come from Aristocracy.Modern state based ones do, but that is a historical aberration, not the norm.>The modern army made the individual soldier much less valuable and require less trainingEven in militaries that equip their troops particularly poorly, the number of man hours required to produce their equipment is orders of magnitude more than it took to equip a bunch of peasants with sharp sticks and padded jackets and hats like in the middle ages. >That just wouldn't work, because you need too down command.I think that was a typo for "top down command" and you don't need that. While centralized command is common, there are historical examples of surprising military accomplishments from militaries that had very limited control from the top. In fact prior to the invention of the radio it is no exaggeration to say that generals had no control over battles once they commenced.>The best alternative to top down command was pioneered by the Germans in WW1.I'd say they pioneered it around 9 AD since back then German tribes kicked the Romans out of Germania without having a state. They were a warrior society and everyone knew how to fight, there was no need for officers. A modern society could do even better.>egalitarian actions, because that would make a military insanely inefficient and slow to react.get fucked statist cuck. Statists have lost the vast majority of conflicts against non states they have engaged in throughout history. Free armed people will rape your corpse. You fucks got lucky when FDR tricked all the patriots into fighting some kraut so he could take their freedom while they were busy. It won't last.
>>62859613>on about>he doesn't randomly blurt lines from 'Balance of.Terror'
>>62857985>a slave labour armyThe english word for that is "conscripts" Rajeesh.
>>62859591>a meme, because they killed the blueshirts in ep4 just fineIf by just fine you mean managed to miss many times firing automatic weapons down a thirty foot hallway, yes. One Thompson SMG from fucking 1918 would have ended that encounter inside of three seconds. Begone starwars fag we're wise to your tricks here.
Imagine NASA filled with enlisted instead of officers. Selling fentanyl in mission control in the 1960s.
>>62860356Imagine. Imagine cross posting from /pol/. Imagine saving this image to your computer and using it without any irony or self awareness whatsoever. Imagine thinking fent existed or was used in any serious amount over fifty years ago. Imagine outing yourself so fiercely, so violently. Imagine how many paragraphs of jew rants he'll write after being rightly called out on, get this, his retardation.Nobody can rot a man's spirit more than his own self, his own lack of self control. Go outside for a while, friend, and reflect on how your life led you here.
>>62858587The difference is that everyday existence doesn't randomly glitch out and create two of you that both think they're the original.
>>62860478If both think they're the original, wouldn't any sexual activity between the two be automatically masturbation?
>>62859797No, Sumerias used slave labour to build ramps up to city walls / hold large shields. Nomads / herdsmen did the actual fighting, so it was a slave labour army and not traditional conscripts like in a modern army.
>>62859659>statist armies lost the majority of conflictsIf you mean things like Vietnam or Afghanistan, both the Taliban and Vietcong had top down command with cells that acted on their own. Also, the Vietnamese lost about a million people fighting the US while the US lost under 70k - it was just an extremely unpopular war and seek and destroy was a bad military strategy. The Taliban really didn't come close to beating the US, they just left the country and the Taliban retook the state because everything about the government the US set up was retarded. Most of history shows large conscripted armies being very efficientbat winning. Napoleon, the Turks, Romans, Persians, and Sumarians.
>>62857640you are describing the IDF.Israel has three-year mandatory military service. everyone is an officer after two years.
>>62860332>Begone starwars fag we're wise to your tricks here.>argue that stormtroopers cant hit their target>despite the fact they clearly can hit the target
>>62859659>Statists have lost the vast majority of conflicts against non states they have engaged in throughout history.
>>62860798>Russia>European??? !!! ???
>>62860470imagine not having prolapsed anus and/or neovagina
>>62860830Depends on what you consider ethnically European. Are slavs European or a lesser form of life? Up to you to decide. They may be on the Asian side of Europe, but ethnically and culturally there's an argument for calling them European. Unless you consider geographic location over culture and ethnicity what determines who and what a person is.
>>62859555They cured the gay
>>62859659>Modern state based ones do,What's it like living in 1910?
>>62859659The romans quite literally got bored of massacring german villages and left to plunder the middle east. Teutoberg forest is remembered because it was so unusual for its time
>>62858587We see transportation from Barlcays POV in one episode, and there is no interruption of consciousness.
When Keiko became a 12 year old do you think they....you know.
>>62857696or exchanging captains for engineers
>>62857692Only legitimate response to such a bold-faced lie
>>62857955>Computer, create a facsimile of Miyamoto Musashi using data from original sources. Increase his didactic abilities and patience by 100% and 25% respectively. Create an ideal training environment for learning swordsmanship in 17th century Japan. Create no other students except as necessary for sparring. Being able to take free and private master classes in any field seems like a big plus.
>>62858457>Nobody wants to hear the story of Pajeet Kaur second grade night shift sewage technician…it could be a comedy>It’s cold outside>There’s no kind of atmosphere>I’m all alone, more or less
>>62857886>The joke punchline was 20 years ago>The comic itself was 30 years agoAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
>>62864020>…it could be a comedyBad idea. In space, no one can hear you laugh.
>>62862262Yes. Duty.
>>62858804>Gilles de Rais and you were expected to rape and/or murder dozens of children?He was innocent , it was all slander .>>62858596Rom and his storylines are peak .
>>62859450>I think Roddenberry's original vision was that EVERYONE on board would be an officer. I guess in a post-scarcity society where education is essentially free except in an opportunity-cost sense, it kinda-sorta-maybe would make sense, but eh. Roddenberry had some weird ideas.Well yeah there are no social classes or division of labor. Like white collar and blue collar. That distinction no longer exists in the canon. Roddenberry was basically a utopian socialist who made communism look attractive to Americans because there's no association with all that evil Russian shit which is basically the Klingons.
>>62857640Schizophrenia.Multiple voices issuing commands sounds like hell.
>>62860911Culturally they are subhuman
>>62865544>He was innocent , it was all slander . It sadly wasn't. The extent was considerably exaggerated by his political enemies, but he did do some fucked up shit. Dude suffered from PTSD due to all the combat he took part in as Joan's subordinate, and he went loopy because of it.
>>62860798>iran>afghanistan>never colonized by EuropeI guess this doesn't account for the Greeks ruling that whole area for a few hundred years. But if Britain never colonized Afghanistan why fight the 3rd Anglo-Afghan war for independence?
>>62859450This is correct. Having a billion ensigns is a creative choice.>>62865639To claim Star Trek advocates for communism is peak "media literacy" when it bashes you over the head with its message at every opportunity it gets and there's one faction that's explicitly an allusion to communism.
>>62860830They were ruled by German monarchs for centuries.None of their "great" rulers were actually russians.I think that counts as being colonized, at least to some degree.
>>62858154>"Well, if you want to get into Starfleet's warcrimes... Damar, pull up those files on Senator Vreenak."
>>62857665>ever seen an officer die?no but i've heard and read about it happening.
>>62858804If I was getting into the mind of Roddenberry, then they probably think it is better that such indulgences are done in fiction and fantasy than in reality. There might also be some level of discretionary privacy. In real life we'd clearly have a lot of debate over the validity of certain holodeck activities.>>62859450From past topics on the subject I jived with the idea that even if it's post scarcity it doesn't mean everything is post-scarcity: Anyone can get an education but membership in starfleet academy is exclusive (Therefore scarce), and I'd wager there's similar gatekeeping elsewhere such that if you do nothing but exist you have a comfortable existence that isn't prison-esque but for additional perks you gotta earn it by merit (or social approval) rather than money.
>>62867153I hate that half of 4chan copypastas are basically copied from reddit.https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/6fcdqz/statistically_the_cardassian_occupation_of_bajor/
>>62867501it came from 420c's trek board over a decade ago
>>62867501"Dukat did nothing wrong" funposting goes back more than a decade.
>>62868171Yeah I remember /v/ having threads about it for whatever reason during the early 2010s.
>>62857640Plot armor.
>>62868124>Try to go to 420c to reminisce and see what the site is like again on boards like /psy/, /trek/ and /other/>Get directed to faggoty LeftypolGrim
>>62858145Silence goy.
>>62863989>Computer, change the fascimile to that of FGO MiyamotoThere yo go.
>>62857640That’s the USPHS, NOAA, and army medical corps. It runs okay when it’s overwhelmingly people with advanced degrees doing specialized jobs.Don’t their ground forces have actual army ranks and a lot of enlisted and they die a lot on DS9?
>>62860798Shouldn't Russiabe painted red due Poland?
>>62865639So the borgs are...?
>>62868790yea there's multiple episodes of ds9 with federation soldiers who have the worst gear imaginable.this is literally the only photo i could find on google, penal legions in 40k are better equipped lol
>>62868815USSR in space and the non cosmonaut corps (mostly officers screened ideologically and given cushy assignments) are red army conscripts who die by the millions in space eastern front WW2
>>62868790>PHS>the organization famous for putting a troon in chargeThose aren't real military organisations. They're a leftover from the world wars era when meteorologists and photographers risked being executed as spies under the geneva conventions, so the US said lol and put them in military uniforms to be safe.
>>62868698it used to be such a good site. /wooo/ was so fucking good until he lost his fucking mind with spardoti miss how the /trek/ board had a thread about this >>62862262 that was always on the front page for like 3 years
>>62868840They were militarized during declared wars and would in WW3. Don’t think there won’t be a dire need for doctors when nukes fly.Also isn’t starfleet supposed to be quasi military not actual military?
>>62868840The Public Health Service dates to 1798 retard.>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_for_the_relief_of_sick_and_disabled_seamen
>>62868826ds9 was way more willing to explore this weird commie society aspect more than the other shows.
>>62868855>They were militarized during declared warsYes that's the point. They aren't military, they're civilians with a military label taped on in wartime to protect them from wartime enemies who respect the geneva conventions executing them as spies.If it's peace, or the enemies aren't hypercivilized germanics, there's no point pretending they are.
>>62868859Now research their uniform system and WW2, troon. Research Carter's budget cuts to the maritime PHS too.
When playing Rome:Total War my last campaign I ended up with like 20 generals Doing nothing. They were fucking like rabbits. So I put them all in the same army and sent them on suicide missions that all did really, really well.When you end up with that many officers, you just have your 1st LT scrubbing the deck.
>>62868881based. fuck you, stepdad.
>>62868881that's essentially an army of nobles like knights
>>62868866>military label taped on in wartimeAnd used to staff hospital ships that got shot at in the pacific and NOAA did mapping of beaches prior to assault and had one of the highest casualty rates of a service>If it's peace, or the enemies aren't hypercivilized germanics, there's no point pretending they areIsn’t that supposed to be star fleet in the show too?
>>62868881Man, I did exactly the same thing. That was... Nearly 20 years ago...Generals in R:TW 1 were just shock cavalry units with better morale IIRC. It was an OP strat.
>>62868868>everyone I don't like is a troonThe tradition of wearing the uniform predates either World War by decades. The US Coast and Geodetic Survey was administered by the Navy, and wore naval uniforms for this reason, NOAA is their successor and keeps this tradition. Originally civilians were not even allowed to do coastal surveys, they were actual Army or Navy officers. USPHS administered the Marine Hospital system going back to 1798 and was organized under the Revenue Marine(Coast Guard). They still provide medical services to the Coast Guard.
>>62868842True, the rascals thread on /trek/ was legendary. A shame it's all gone now.
>>62868795Funny but even setting aside Vatnik bashing Poles never really did much of anything with Russia in the limited time they were in charge. It's arguable if European part of Russia is culturally European but they have mostly colonised the Asiatic part of Russia, although not very well since most of it sucks dick too much to live there.
>>62868815The standard Federation sidearm is perfectly capable of disintegrating a person or turning a building into slag, what exactly is some body armor going to accomplish?
>>62868863It’s funny how they pressed thousands of obsolete Miranda hastily refitted to be destroyers for their “great patriotic war” and you see them blow up by the hundreds.
>>62860930lmao at the Bashir bars video suggestion
>>62868124Well then I apologise. I'm not old enough of a trekkie for that unfortunately, I got into DS9 and the older films (not the new ones) and hated every single other trek series even though I watched a fair amount.I mean it's not that surprising I got into DS9, the show having an Iraq war style theme and my proclivities towards that style of writing.
>>62869008Mirandas are the starfleet equivalent of Russian BMPs.
Star trek scale never made sense to me. The entire planet is united as one and they only have a couple hundred ships at most. You would figure with replicator technology, you would be churning these mother fuckers out by the thousands. It's not like people on Earth have anything better to do, they all live in a socialist utopia and don't have to work or do anything. You could just train millions of to crew the things (which honestly would be controlled by AI for the most part anyways) They never run into any real military threat in their part of the galaxy. The klingons/romulans had the exact number of ships they had, used the exact same tactics with the exact same technology (for the most part). A couple hundred ships is fucking nothing. They are simply lucky yo never run into a race that went balls to the wall military with billions of soldiers and crew members piloting millions of ships. You know, like what a galactic scale military would be like.And the starfleet ships are always general purpose for the most part. There's no dedicated marine landing ships, supply ships, carriers, destroyers, whatever. They don't move in fleets like a modern day carrier strike group. It would only make sense to have a ship dedicated to land parties, with shuttles, armored vehicles, light transport vehicles, ect to go along with your exploration ship. You're constantly running into trouble, so sending a single ship out by itself is just idiotic. It would make much more sense to move in groups of 12-20 with different roles for any mission, especially exploration missions. They always find themselves to be outnumbered by birds of prey and shit so why they keep the same doctrine it doesn't make sense.NOT being prepared for an enemy race that's dedicated to military expansion is the dumbest thing you can do while exploring space. You are literally looking for trouble and they aren't prepared at-fucking-all for when they find it.
>>62869218>You are literally looking for trouble and they aren't prepared at-fucking-all for when they find it.Q threw picard to the borg explicitly to prove that to him
>>6286921899.99999% of the population is busy gooning in the holodecks 24/7
>>62857640like the US Airforce?
>>62869218>don't have to work or do anythingthey never really address this worth a shit. everyone knows damn well half the population would be fat asses living in government housing eating cheetos and jacking off all day.
>>6286927123rd century humans are hyper evolved beings that are supposed to have overcome humanity's weaknesses and work to further better themselves. the ferengi are the most relatable characters because they're like most humans today
>>62868840Actually, NOAA's antecedents were granted commissions to keep the Confederacy from executing them.
>>62860930>tears the MRE pouch and every ligament in his shoulder
>>62869218In TOS space and starships function like it's the 18th century. This is to prevent people from asking, "why don't they just call for help and wait for another ship to arrive," and because ship models were expensive and filming them was laborious so they couldn't do it frequently. Later entries have more ships onscreen as due to the movies there were a lot more models created (it's why we see so many Excelsiors, Mirandas, and Oberths) and it became easier to film and composite ship scenes. By the time the latter seasons of DS9 drop CGI has taken over and it's suddenly economical to have a dozen ships onscreen at once. The answer to your problems with Trek are Doylist in nature.Also Starfleet is consistently shown to be able to toe-to-toe with other species' dedicated warships so it's not like they're unprepared.
>>62869008>>62868863DS9 confirmed for best trek
>>62857674>It would work poorly and officers would start having to do enlisted men's jobs.>>62857787>Well, or just lower ranking / less useful officers cleaning latrines, picking up bodies, and other shit grunt jobs.
>>62870199The fact that Quark was 100% correct about his mother never fails to make me laugh.
>>62868970Sure but then they end up facing Klingons and Jem'Hadar who always seem to manage to run right up to them and punch them in the face.Watch The Siege of AR-558 and just imagine how it would've gone if instead of fiddling with the houdini mines they'd used their time setting up a kill box with barbed wire and overlapping entrenched fire along the one narrow approach the enemy'd already clearly advertised they were taking.
>>62868939https://web.archive.org/web/20160709031134/http://boards.420chan.org/1701/res/27851.php
>>62869271Even when I was unemployed for 2 years I felt the desire to create things. I only stopped when I hit a depression spike. I assume in this utopia the gooners are all educated in such a way that addiction to gooning and being lazy is fixed through early life educational training and therapy (retraining).For startrek to exist you need HEAVY amounts of propaganda and """education""".These lamps where they just get educated by their parents and it's all fine makes me laugh, because it's just not viable.It actually makes the awful DS9 episode with the crazy commie bitch that puts people in hotboxes episode look so much better, because you start to imagine parallels between her and starfleet (that you can headcanon).>>62869218Starships in startrek require too many resources (to film). From what I generally see, I assume they're limited by duterium output or some other bullshit reason.Yes, it's a writers cop out.
>>62870208>That man's poor neckYou'd think they'd have 0G sleeping quarters instead of this shit.
>>62857674Like what. Nearly all of it is done by replicator tech. Cleaning, filtering and poop removal too.>>62857766I would. As long as I had kids at home you could pretty much load me onto a rocket and fire me at the sun to protect them.Ideological motivation though strong national propaganda, something the west has been reluctant to take advantage of because all the elites mock their own nations existence, they'd rather submit to cooperative coexistence do nothing propaganda instead.
>>62870353There was disagreement between the writing staff and the visual guys in DS9 over the amount of ships that were supposed to take part in battles, with the writing staff making them small and major battles only involving about 30 ships total. The visual effects guys would then add a zero on the end of whatever the writing staff wanted. Trek also runs on a great deal of "it's there, we're just not showing it" which is why you get things like Earth's inconsistently existing orbital infrastructure.
>>62870353>crazy commie bitch that puts people in hotboxes episodeWut?Also wasn't home education in the remote parts/colonies where people would encounter some difficulty? Rates of depression are lower amongst people that grow up active and do something to earn a living rather than having a huge social net to fall back on.
>>62869218It's all plot, and I'm honestly surprised that the OS ST got green lit back in the 60's, what with all the leftist ideological propaganda and outright socialist dickriding.>augments These guys are outright a hard counter to Roddenbury's whole thesis, and he straight up goes full lefty hypocrite when dealing with them.>aliens and time travelers violating the shit out of the prime directive to stop them>the augments being evul for the lulz no other reason >the good guys going full TAD to include defenseless children >the good guys having a full on genetic APARTHEID discriminating even partial augments (children from consensual or otherwise A/NA pairings or ancestors of such) confining them to slums or asylums >outright purging augments from starfleet Inquisition style This is always brushed aside by Tekkkies.
>>62857640Like the Canadian military right now (it wouldnt)
>>62870353>crazy commie bitch that puts people in hotboxes episode look so much better, because you start to imagine parallels between her and starfleetShe wasn't a Commie; she was an extremist Luddite. She wanted to get away from all forms of advanced Technology.
>>62869149They actually won the war though and probably used the Mirandas as torpedo boats (why so many died) and as counter to smaller dominion ships
>>62870426Wasn't there one guy working on DS9 that was insistent that Starfleet actually had tens of thousands of ships because he misunderstood how registry numbers worked?
>>62872158Given fleet size numbers from DS9 they have tens of thousands in the dominion war and lose thousands. In cannon they have massive Soviet legacy style surplus yards where they keep older ships. In emergencies they hastily modernize them and press them into service for mobnik attacks. That’s how in lore they counter the endless ships the dominion has.
>>62870853a lot of the augment stuff came much later. In the late 90s everyone was convinced that it'd be possible to genetically modify super children in 10-15 years time.
>>62857640Ever work at a failing company? It would be like that: taskmasters everywhere, zero management accountability, and all blame placed on the lowest level employees
>>62872896Embryo selection already does this desu. Any rich person who knows their biology and has the right doctor can bump their future kid's IQ ~7 points. Or simply marry an average white woman instead of a brown lol. Instant +15 boost.
>>62857692>>62863911https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxrve7iIlhk'Lie'? Lol.
>>62872967>not the military>fights every single war the federation has ever had or will ever have>criminals are given a court martial, not sent to civilian courts>organized by fleets, squadrons and divisions>organized>wear distinct uniforms>authorized, funded and maintained by the UFP>explicitly called a 'defense service'>but it's not the military
>>62873008By your logic, the Salvation Army is a military organisation. They have ranks, uniforms and so on.
>>62873014is the salvation army funded and maintained by the government of the united kingdom, fight its wars and referred to as it's defense organization?
>>62857766In America, the enlisted do all the cool stuff you see in movies. Officers are on base listening to what the enlisted men are doing on a radio.
>>62873022No, but Starfleet is specifically not a military organisation. They do military things, but they are not a military organisation. This is why, during the Dominion War, they're fighting with retrofitted science vessels. The episode where Riker is captured on a First Contact mission and they accuse him of being a soldier coming to conquer by pointing to his phaser and he says it's just for defence. Starfleet is not a military organisation and it regularly mentions this throughout the show, especially during DS9 where they're basically arguing there should be.
>>62873036>No, but Starfleet is specifically not a military organisation.It's explicitly referred to as the 'defense service' of the Federation. It fights every war for the Federation. It follows everything that makes a military a military.Whether or not Roddenberry wanted it to be, it is a de facto military and arguing otherwise is sophistry. Even his often touted claim that he wanted it to be 'the coast guard' belies the fact that the coast guard IS part of the military. Just because starfleet has taken on additional roles doesn't change anything. When the Corps of Royal Engineers build wells and schools, that doesn't mean they suddenly are construction workers and not members of a military organization.
>>62857640I thought that starfleet mostly has commissioned officers in peacetime. And only enlists/drafts federation citizens during wartime. It's possible to join as an enlisted man during peacetime, but it's rare. As starfleet academy is seen as much more prestigious, and prestige is seen as being the currency of a cashless, post-scarcity society. Another thing is that starfleet goes through alot of Ensigns and junior LTs, who do most of the bitch work and dangerous work.
>>62868798yankee traders
>>62872390imagine dying on some clapped out excelsior class shitbucket
>>62868786Computer, initiate the /ss/ protocol. Disengage safety locks.
>>62873334I would gladly die in a starship in battle
>>62874620thats the winning spirit
>>62873326>Riker: Yankee traders? I like the sound of that.>Data: Commander... your ancestors were total dickbags.
>>62860798Nepal was a british colony
>>62873334You’re going to die in a Miranda class Destroyer Escort which they constantly throw into Samuel Roberts type battles Hopefully you go out like the Sammy B
>My God, O'Brian, that was a child. A war crime!>None of this matters, Bashir. None of it. They are as real as a carrot.
>>62859659Non-state armies tend to be ran by local warlords who are practically the same as aristocrats in function, though (and the majority of states were founded by these bandit-warlords becoming petty kings upon securing their territories, though they get cagey when you point this out.) Syndies tried a non-hierarchal army during the Spanish Civil War and managed to die to the rigidly-inefficient Red Army.
>>62873334Forget the Excelsior, there's an ancient TOS-era Crossfield at the right bottom corner >>62872390 that was probably transferring cargo before its poor crew got pressed into battle.
>>62857866>Frankly, if I lived in a star trek world I'd even let it beam shit and dirt from me. Imagine never needing to go to the toilet, wash or shower.You're ignoring the theseus ship problem, is teleportation a truly unbroken chain of consciousness, or do you simply die and a pravtically perfect clone with your memories is created?
>>62858587Because a transporter causes you to objectively not exist for a moment in time. The chain of conciousness is completely broken, assuming it just reconnects itself automatically is a much greater leap.
>>62858804I mean I've absolutely done way worse in videogames, so I don't see much of a difference
>>62873036>retrofitted science vessels>vessels that carry hundreds of 65mt nuclear warheads and a phaser weapon that is capable of vaporizing a mountainthe phaser weapons never made sense in these fucking shows. Once the shields are down, a phaser should absolutely destroy a ship but instead they just make a tiny little explosion that sends the ship off course. They've shown phasers (in enterprise I think?) that could vaporize an entire mountain. Or in TNG dig a hole that is several miles deep in a minute.Also, they miss all the fucking time. How they miss with a laser weapon I'll never fucking know. They are less than a mile from one another and they are still missing. Also, shooting a 65mt warhead at something while you're within range of it's blast radius is fucking retarded.And before anyone says "They aren't nuclear weapons." Why the fuck do you think an antimatter annihilation reaction is? It's an atomic, nuclear reaction. Antimatter bombs are nuclear bombs.
>>62877325>The chain of conciousness is completely brokenBarclay was awake in the transporter. Hoshi had a nightmare in the transporter.
>>62877325Lorelet moment
>>62877525>Also, shooting a 65mt warhead at something while you're within range of it's blast radius is fucking retarded.Dial-a-yield, retard.
>>62877543>>62877624Then how the fuark can it accidentally create clones of someone like Riker
>>62869271>>62869483I've got no idea what the actual canon is, but I like the idea that the humans in Star Trek aren't the baseline humans of modern day. During the Eugenic Wars or whatever all the genetic baseline humans got killed off. The survivors all like to pretend they're normal humans now.
>>62870353>tfw I have been unemployed for 5 years and struggle to get out of bed most days>cbd gummies and my mom for some reason not being upset with me for being a massive loser are the only things keeping me going
>>62880005TV magic, baby! But, like, dude, you realize it's like, not like, real, right?
>>62869483>23rd century humans are hyper evolved beings that are supposed to have overcome humanity's weaknesses and work to further better themselves.A major part of the lore from Space Seed on has been that humans of the future shun all genetic enhancement and discriminate against anyone with elective genetic and cybernetic augmentation. The only allowances are made for the crippled and usually take the form of clunky external cybernetics like Geordie's visor, with genetic fixes only allowed when a cybernetic option isn't available.The Federation is pretty terrible in that respect. There were even 3 DS9 episodes dealing with explicit and extreme discrimination against Bashir and other augments. Bashir was going to be kicked out of Starfleet and possibly go to prison for the crime of being agumented at the age of 5 to fix his mental retardation. In the end, his father ended up making a plea deal to go to prison in his place and let Bashir stay in Starfleet. In 2 later episodes we found out that other augments get put in confinement when they're found out both so they can be studied and to prevented from engaging with wider society. The Federation is basically the society from Harrison Bergeron.
>>62877543The POV of the transported is irrelevant as it being fabricated is part of the premise of the argument. There is no empirical way to show them as being concious
>>62880809Barclay literally moved around and grabbed people stuck in the transporter beam, while he was in the transporter beam.
>>62880848But barclay wasn't fully beamed out, it proves nothing beyond that you can have multiple lifeforms in the beam at once and have them stored there. Which was already known
>>62877186Now that you think about it isn’t the federation using similar tactics in the dominion war to the UNSC in Halo?Huge numbers of smaller outmatched frigates that are still effective by virtue of being used en mass and also screen the small number of advanced capital ships they have. of course they’re lost at huge rates.
>>62880848In fiction rules are often ignored when they become inconvenient. How many times have we been told that you can't beam through shields and how many times has it happened anyway because the writer of some episode either forgot or wrote himself into a corner?
>>62880919Not so much. Their frigates and even old science ships like the Miranda stuff that were upgraded were a match for the Jemhadar fighter that's like 90% of the fleet we ever see. They're even about the same size. There's lots of stuff that they just handwaved in DS9 because they didn't have the budget.
>>62880809Data was shooting people while being transported
>>62880969It was meant to be a pocket heavy cruiser when first made but it’s badly outdated by the war and you see a design that’s a century old making up half their fleets.That would be like the modern navy being made up hastily modernized Atlanta cruisers.
>>62880961>How many times have we been told that you can't beam through shields and how many times has it happened anyway because the writer of some episode either forgot or wrote himself into a corner?Never? The only times anybody beams through shields are when they've stolen or otherwise acquired the shield modulation frequencies.
>>62873034In Starfleet it is literally the opposite of that. If an enlisted goes on an away mission it's because they need someone to die.
>>62880027>I've got no idea what the actual canon is, but I like the idea that the humans in Star Trek aren't the baseline humans of modern day. During the Eugenic Wars or whatever all the genetic baseline humans got killed off. The survivors all like to pretend they're normal humans now.My own head canon is Khan's greatest Nemesis that history overlooked; An Augment Sex-toy who secretly maneuvered the normie alliance behind the scenes by acting as their brainless bimbo bicycle.Before launching herself into deep space, she released a retrovirus that genetically spread her peaceful, nymphomaniac ways.
>>62881070>Never?Bruh. It's been established canon since TOS that you can't beam through shields yet it happened frequently during TNG and VOY. When the Jenolan was propping open the door to let the Enterprise escape they beam Geordie and Scottie out then destroy the ship. When O'Brien needs to talk to Maxwell face to face he just beams through the shields of 2 ships because the director wanted them both in the same scene, not talking over a screen. I'm not going to go through every instance of it happening but it was frequent. The transporters can beam through anything when it is convenient and stop working when the director wants to have a contrived scene or build tension.It's fiction and plays fast and loose with its own rules. If you want hard SF that still has aliens and FTL look to Niven's Known Space stories or David Brin's Uplift saga. If you want something harder than that you can forget FTL and comprehensible alien cultures.
>>62873034>Officers are on base listening to what the enlisted men are doing on a radio.Just like in Aliens where they all die. Yes, dying is pretty cool stuff to do, while Gorman sits safely in the APC.
>>62857640"I have 8 different COs"
>>62880919The Federation was on equal footing and produced what it had by choice. The UNSC was on the backfoot since day 1 and was 95% of the time ineffective in space against the Covenant. They made do with what they had to some shitty results.
>>62857665yeah
>>62880751You missed the part where the other augments are all fucked up from their augmentation. Jack was in a permanent manic state, Lauren was delusional and hypersexual, Patrick was unable to care for himself, and Sarina was just short of catatonic. Of course they were under confinement, they're special needs adults.>>62881285Every single time someone beams through shields it has a reason. In the case of Relics they'd already know the shield frequencies (since La Forge and Scott are the ones who raised them) while in The Wounded O'Brien specifically informs them of a vulnerability in how the shields function that would allow them to transport him.
>>62880919'effective' is a big ass stretch given they were losing the war, it was just the most cost effective because those ships would probably die anyways and they could hold a mac or two. anything heavier would also die but would have diminishing returns.Frigates for the UNSC were also just what they had. They did not have very many cruiser vessels.
>>62873036By that logic the JSDF isn't a military organization
>>62880919>Huge numbers of smaller outmatched frigatesThe vast majority of their frames can be refitted and upgraded.
>>62859591>a meme, because they killed the blueshirts in ep4 just fineIt amazes me that these meme stuck when they basically come right out and say that they were missing on purpose... twice.>Leia: They let us go. It's the only explanation for the ease of our escape.>Tarkin: And you're sure the homing beacon is secure onboard their ship? I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This had better work.
>>62883231>The vast majority of their frames can be refitted and upgraded.They even tell you this has happened, in the Coup episodes a rogue Admiral sends an old Excelsior-class to tangle with the Defiant and it turns out it is so heavily upgraded it holds its own in the fight.>That would be like the modern navy being made up hastily modernized Atlanta cruisers.An Atlanta-class cruiser would be quite dangerous nowadays if they ripped out all those old cannons, AA guns and electronics and replaced them with the latest anti-ship missiles, ASW torpedo's, anti-aircraft missiles, CIWS guns, updated the radar, sonar and communications to modern standards and convert the rear of the ship to a helicopter pad.Thing about Star Trek is that ships are just space boxes to hold all the technology, which makes it a lot easier to retrofit than a 20th century ocean going Earth warship. You can change out the engines, sensors, power core, phasers, torpedoes and basically have an up to date ship.
>>62884540>>62882767>>62881519It’s still funny because when you look at an average dominion war fleet >>62880919 you realize like half of the ships are an 80 year old design and quite small by the standards of the war >>62884540Now imagine atlantas being used for battle of Samar type tactics (charging bigger more modern ships) by design nonstop.
>>62884540>>62885353Given that Trek ships are held together by shields, and photon torpedoes and phasers are older than the Federation, as long as you have the space to fit them and are willing to put in the time and effort you can modernize the defensive systems on damn near anything. The Mirandas aren't dramatically exploding because they're fragile, they're exploding to make the scene exciting. Lots of ships in Trek go down with 2-3 shots when no one important is on board but no one singles them out.
>>62885630They're exploding because once the shields fail you're fucking dead no matter what you're in. The only saving grace is that photon torpedoes seem to overpenetrate unshielded targets if TUC is any measure.
