Did the Soviets actually expect much from the Poles, Hungarians and Czechoslovaks if war broke out for real? Like how the fuck did they expect these guys to be loyal and fighting alongside the USSR given the debacles with 1956, 1968, and everything pertaining to Poland's occupation postwar? What role would the WP armies outside of East Germany actually play in a conflict?
>>62897287They served as a threshold that could be safely nuked from a distance alongside American troops that rolled into it.this post is only half ironic
>>62897307check out what France's plan for germany was
>>62897602>check out what France's plan for germany wasBasedGet Plutoned, Krauts. Should have stopped the soviets at Fulda
>>62897602understandable
Poland was an honorary NATO aggressor, there were concerns about "Friendly Fire" in combined operations from Polish units onto Red Army forces and Poland was tasked with nuking London, almost guaranteeing its destruction.
>>62897626>and Poland was tasked with nuking London,lmao how the fuck would that work? Did the Soviets entrust the Poles with nuclear weapons?
>>62897287Polish troops were supposed to blitz through north Germany and go into Belgium and Netherlands as well as occupy Denmark. Amphibious invasion was supposed to be carried out on that island where Copenhagen is, idk its name.In addition the Soviets planned to hand control over some of their nukes to Poland in the event of a war, which were supposed to be aimed at Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Antwerp etc.
>>62897783Just how the fuck did the USSR expect their WP allies to do any of this? Were their navies even capable of landing in Copenhagen without getting blasted by Swedish (almost certain to intervene) subs and corvettes?
>>62898017They didn't. Polish forces were supposed to cut a path forward at all costs so actual soviet troops could keep moving. It didn't matter that they'd all die in the process while Poland became a nuclear wasteland.I don't know about ships but Poland did used to have a fleet of landing ships.All of that was unironically supposed to take 3 days btw.
>>62897602>>62897619>>62897621>>but the soviets have NBC protected vehicles>>...the soviets?
>>62897619Fun fact: By the time French nukes come into play, everything between Minsk and Amsterdam is already glowing.
>>62898017Gdansk Shipyards produced alot of amphibs like the Ropucha and Polnocny class.
>>62897619This shit looks like an RTS unit.
>>62898017Also forgot to mention that the naval invasion of Denmark was supposed to be supported by paratroopers of the 6th airborne division.This is actual Normandy stuff.
>>62897287>Did the Soviets actually expect much from the PolesI don't think so. Well, I don't know. I was reading a 1981 transcript of Andropov meeting with Erich Mielke, the East German head of their state security service (as one does) and Andropov was like, Poland is fucked. Shit is bleak! No, not bleak... the BLEAKEST. Well this was about political matters. It was pretty interesting. The Soviets really lost confidence in the ruling communist party which lost support (not that they had much to begin with) from the workers -- there was a wave of mass strikes starting in 1980 -- while also relying on Western loans to stay in power (really). I need to read more about it:https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/17302-document-03-stasi-note-meeting-between
>>62897783oh man those arrow look very familiar to me, what could it be
>>62897699The map >>62897783Has a a table with nukes to be used during the initial operation and it assumes something like 300 devices to be dropped by polish forces. You can Google "plan operacji zaczepnej frontu nadmorskiego", there's a high resolution pdf scan available.
>>62898069>All of that was unironically supposed to take 3 days btw.Just in time for celebratory porridge.>>62898208>The Soviets really lost confidence in the ruling communist party which lost support (not that they had much to begin with) from the workersSolidarity movement. The current day Polish support for Ukraine also comes from this era because the intellectual class behind Solidarity also theorized that the key to get rid of the Soviet Union was through Ukraine, and so it was preferable to squash the beef over the disputed territories and ethnic cleansing.
>>62897287>Poles, Were not trusted in general, only certain internal security units were regarded as trustworthy, some air units were given nuclear strike roles in the opening air attacks agasint Danish and German targets. Essentially one-way missions.They were also expected to move along the Baltic coast and support the push there, and land their amphib forces in Danmark.>HungariansWere no trusted. Were expected to occupy Austria and parts of Yugosalvia to stabilize the Souther Group's rear.>CzechoslovakWere distrusted after '68. Were expected to basically hold their own border and support the Southern Group's push through Austria.The East Germans had roughly one field army of troops under diredct Soviet control, this formation was expected to function as part of the attack force. The rest of t eh East German forces were regarded as not trustworthy.The Bulgarians were also supposed to hold the line agaisnt Turkey, Greece and Yugoslavia.The Romanians were expected to help the Bulgarians
>>62898272So basically the Kremlin just banks on everyone being on guard duty and hopes they don't get any any funny ideas of mass defections and Tokugawa style betrayals?
>>62897699seconding>>62898265The file I planned to post was like 25mb but even that was too low quality to read the tables inside, conversion to 4mb just made it worse.Nothing actually says anything about bombing London, all the indicated bombing sites are along the coast of mainland Europe.
>>62897287Throw 'em in the first wave. What, you think they're gonna try and mutiny while the Red Army's second echelon is currently crossing through their home countries, effectively holding a gun to their loved ones heads?
>>62898208Great little article>the gas pipeline to France and West Germanykek some things really never do change, do they?
>>62897287Does anyone know what role Romanian and Bulgarian troop’s were supposed to play in the event of WW3 popping off? Were they supposed to bum rush the Turks/Greeks or would they be joining the others in the great push westwards?
>>62898308Well yes, but not quite. The Poles are supposed to help the 'northern' push, along the coast.The East Germans are supposed to help the 'central' push, around teh Harz mountains.Czechoslovaks into Bavaria (and Austria), flanking the US units in teh Fulda gapHungarians into Austria and Yugoslavia (then into Italy)Bulgarians into Yugoslavia, but hold against Grece and Turkey (this was expected to be a phony war)Each of the WarPac countries has a few 'regular' devisions, with lots of political officers, mostly volunteers and few(er) conscripts, these were the 'trusted' forces. Thze 'monilized' forces (reserve officers, few political officers, few NCOs, all conscipts) were expected to sit in place and not revolt.But to be frank, the WarPac war plan calls for an opening salvo of something between 800 and 1200 nukes from 50 to 200 kt, mostly aimed at targets in West Germany, BeNeLux and Danmark, possibly Sweden and norway.This means NATO WILL respond with whatever got off the ground immediately, and nuke as many bridges, air fields and command facilities as possible with whatever is left.Which would, in turn, probably trigger a Soviet IRBM launch, which would likely lead to strategic nuclear war due to the use it or lose it threat.Pic vaguely related.
>>62898017>Just how the fuck did the USSR expect their WP allies to do any of this?Do? They were there to TRY, and atritt the NATO forces by getting blown away.The whole push into Danmark is just a distraction, the main thrust is to the Ruhr, into the Netherlands and BelgiumThe push into the Fulda Gap is also a distraction, teh Soviets understood that they could not break through there, unless their Southern Group made it and threatened the American's and German's flank through Austria.And yes, this scnenario means Sweden will be in the war alongside NATO.All in all, this whole thing will be '3 Days to Kyiv' but o na continent-wide scale, with a Polish, Hungarian, Czechoslovak and East German civil war sprinkled on top.
What baffles me is that it was known that in the event of WW3, the soviets would nuke as many European cities as they could and then send in their slave armies to kill whoever was left, and yet there are still a bunch of retards out there who suck off rasha and believe that they dindu nuffin
>>62898878Is this from Markus Wolf's autobiography?
>>62897287in a case of war whole eastern german was a right off and their army with poles would defend on nazi oder-warta military installation waiting for soviet support
>>62898998yes
>>62899071Cool stuff. My great uncle, who was in the Bundeswehr and probably BND, actually got to know him post-reunification. I also had a professor in Berlin (I'll see if I can find his name in my old documents for that class) who was seated next to Wolf at a dinner event and only found that out like 8 years later.
>>62897287judging by the gigantic militaries each of those states had, then yeah I'd bet they expected something out of all the eggs they distributed.
>>62899129The west desperately tried to recruit him, but he was too ideologically committed even after 1989. Former CIA COINTEL director even met him in person and tried to recruit him in the weeks after the SED threw the towel. The man is overall a very interesting character.
>>62898272>>62898475>>62898553fun fact: Austria made the old nazi Alpenfestung idea reality and build 700 hidden fortifications into the mountains. these camouflaged multi level bunker systems were similar to the swiss ones from ww1/2 but with cold war era designs. beside other installations, the austrians accumulated a 300 piece centurion tank fleet. to cut em up and put the turrets on top of 3 store underground bunkers, covered by a fake shed. grunts called em the Heisse Hütte (hot shed) or Überraschungskiste (surprise box).
>>62900485Patton and t34 turrets, anti tank guns were used for the forts too. since the alpine terrain produced natural chokepoints on passes and valleys, lots of pre sighted gun and missile artillery was placed under cover into the next valley or gorge to support the forts.
>>62900556covered trenches were connected to the pillboxes and bunkers. some had submergible cuppolas with heavy machine guns. Radar and command forts were in the rear. forts were equipped to last for months with food, water, electricity medics etc. under conditions of nuclear, biologic or chemical war.
>>62900599long tom sighted in on the mountain street below the fort for shits n giggles, breech was removed since the fort is now a museum.neighboring the actual forts, fake fortifications were build.these were made in a way to be easily spotted fro aerial pictures and possible spies.it was expected that prior to an attack, known positions would be bombed/shelled.
>>62900614occasional mobile artillery was placed around the forts to provide individual fire support. the forts were intended to act in combination with mobile forces of the army or as individual cells after a broad attack. they were spread over the entire country.nobody expected to hold the warsaw pact troops back at the border. but to provide an alpine mix of finn and vietnam style guerilla war for the russians and their cannon fodder satellites.the whole idea was to let the russians know, its gonna cost you to go thru austria. its gonna cost you time. time for nato to concentrate troops to react, here or elsewhere. or to drop a nuke at a big enough soviet troop concentration held back at some alpine chokepoint.every bridge, narrow mountain street and pass had tank hedgehogs nextvto it ready to be deployed.all bigger railways, dams, streets and bridges had intended breaking points to place explosives. being part of big style gladio was seen as a nice part time activity. gun laws were very relaxed to allow broad civilian armament. the army had a militia as a 2nd army in the rear.today most of the fortifications are broken down, one is a museum now:https://bunkermuseum.at/they have a well sorted surplus store and the best gulash ever. run thru trenches and pillboxes.ride tanks, turn the wheels at big bore artillery or crawl inside a t34, aim a mg42 at mommy. kids love it.
>>62898475>be Yugoslavia>both NATO and Warsaw pact have warplans against you.>you don't have nuclear weapons
>>62897287They expected nothing, in case of war all the warpac armies would be integrated under direct soviet command like the rest of the soviet forces in europe. That was the purporse of the "soviet advisors" on almost every front line unit, to take over in case of mobilization.The warsaw pact was the answer to nato, nothing more or less but served no real purporse than a dog and pony show.
>>62900888>the purporse of the "soviet advisors" on almost every front line unit, to take over in case of mobilizationI'm curious to lean more about this arrangement in practice. Where did you read about it?
>>62897287Warsaw pact armies were arguably more functional than the soviet, despite shittier gear.
>>62900935Here:http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov12/03.html In peacetime, the armed forces of the East European countries only have divisions. In wartime these divisions would immediately join Soviet Armies which were under strength. This is precisely what happened in the summer of 1968.In peacetime, these East European divisions see themselves as part of their own national armed forces. In wartime they would be distributed throughout the Soviet Armies; for administrative purposes they would come under their national Ministries of Defence and, ultimately, under the Commander-in-Chief of the Warsaw Treaty Organisation. For military purposes they would be subordinated to the Soviet Armies, Fronts and Strategic Directions and, ultimately, to the Soviet Supreme Commander and to his General Staff. It is because of this that the Staff of the Warsaw Treaty Organisation is a bureaucratic institution rather than operational headquarters. And this is why, in peacetime, many Soviet Armies appear unstructured. In wartime they would be brought up to strength with East European contingents and they would then assume their proper forms.
>>62899254Yeah I always found the MfS/HVA to be fascinating, just boggles my mind how effective they were given that East Germany seemingly suffered from a chronic case of emigrants defecting but their intelligence apparatus was one of the tightest ships in the world and practically impossible for the Americans and West Germans to breach. As mentioned, my great-uncle who was in the Bundeswehr held a begrudging respect for them, recognized a master of the craft so to speak. Wish I had gotten to speak to him more but he smoked himself into the grave 6 years ago now.
>>62900744>. gun laws were very relaxed to allow broad civilian armament.I believe you can still buy a bolt action rifle in Austria with minimal paperwork
>>62900944I cannot bring myself to believe that the Romanian or Bulgarian armies were more organized than the Soviet Army. Even the Hungarian Army feels like a stretch.
>>62901881And since the Nazis were terrible at intelligence/espionage, it was all built from scratch.
>>62901958>it was all built from scratch.Well, more like it was an offshoot of the already established NKVD/KGB. They had built up institutional experience, it just wasn't German.
