Legit questionwhy do powers invest in extremely advanced weaponry and strategies meant for peer oponents when it's clear that such a hot conflict would mean nuclear war?I'm absolutely not saying nukes are not real, but there has to be reasoning behind the all the carriers and advanced jets or is it just plain unexplainable embroilement ?
>>63047511>when it's clear that such a hot conflict would mean nuclear war?Because it's not clear; Nukes aren't the end-all-be-all of weapons, just a fuck-you huge bomb.There are millions of ways to scorch earth, but we generally don't use them because that a net negative outcome that near completely devalues real estate.
>>63047511>it's clear that such a hot conflict would mean nuclear war?Because this is only clear to you, actual military planners see it differently
>>63047522are landlords the last stand against total human annihilation?
>>63047534obviously OP is cleary intelligent and the rest of everyone else is not.
>>63047536>are landlords the last stand against total human annihilation?I mean they are usually the ones that hold the Nuke Button...
>>63047511if we both have nukes but i have an army and you don't, i send some guys to dig up the border markings and move them a foot in your direction. it's just a foot, do you want nuclear war? i'll kill your whole fucking family. it was probably always like that anyway, you drunk faggots can't do anything right, here look at these old maps that show the border was always like that. no you can't date them. look at this sad faggot, "muh foot of clay" lmao it was never yours get over it. then i send some guys to dig up the border markings and move them a foot in your direction.
>>63047593Pretty much this. There's also the non-trivial problem that you might be allies with someone who is also having a conventional military problem. If all you can do to help them is nuke a city then you aren't a very good ally.
>s-stop making cool jets, america!
>>63047680No.
>>63047511We tried this doctrine evolution immediately post-WW2, it lead to the Pentomic divisions and the New Look. It suffers from the same pitfall; there are lots of situations where you want a military to accomplish something without dropping a nuke on it. Absolute devastation just isn't that useful.
>>63047541Is he a landlord?
>>63047511>Soviet doctrineKeep your shitoid thirdie beliefs to yourself with muh noookz
>>63047725>Absolute devastation just isn't that useful.Exactly.>>63047731>Is he a landlord?Sadly intelligence has little influence on inherited wealth...
>>63047854Sounds like rentoid speak for "please don't raise the rent to buy a M9" desu
>>63047897Fucker I'm fairly certain you don't own land you didn't inherit!
>>63047907>The rentoid fears the landladyThats a 50 dollar increase on your rent! I'm buying a new turkshit shotgun and a maid uniform for you if you go on
>>63047963Fucker I'm at least third generation rural Iowan; You either inherited your land or are a Chinese Holding company.
>>63047511Your nuclear winter will be colder than mine.
>>63047985>Physically strong maid>I inherited my corn fieldGood, i can work you on the field as well. I'm now going to campaign for less subsidies for Iowan farmers and buy out your farm
>>63048021>>Physically strong maidHa ha, no.>I'm now going to campaign for less subsidies for Iowan farmersDO IT MOTHER FUCKER!The "small family farm" has been extinct outside of niche hobby operations since my grand daddies generation!>>63048021>buy out your farmAlready bought up by the Highway to build an overpass three decades ago, the two acers left got made into a nice little homestead we sold to a teacher wanting to try their hands at hobby farming.
>>63048036>I already sold my farm to BIG HIGHWAYShoot, above my grade, you Iowan fucks will pay one day for what you did against the south. I'll keep a muzzle loader just for you to surrender to!
>>63048076>you Iowan fucks will pay one day for what you did against the south. I'll keep a muzzle loader just for you to surrender to!Fucker we got shot by the North because nobody told us what color we were suppose to use for the Uniforms, plus I hear Steve Kings bunch up in the Northwest are BIG FANS!But yeah, while the bubble burst on Acreage McMansions a while back, Iowa dirt is worth more than its weight in gold, which is how I knew you are a bitch pretender.
>>63047593Yep. >US stealth bombers razing Beijing? yeah fire the nukesvs>They attack and liberate some filthy westernized dogs in Hong Kong? Well of course we will respond, but it doesn't seem worth it to trigger a nuclear response when we still have the northern part of the country
>>63047511russia is the hypothetical state you're thinking of that doesn't invest in advanced weaponry or strategies and just has a bunch of nukes, and it's not really working out for them.
>>63047511commit suicide
>>63048140This is why I'm glad we're moving away from MAD and hopefully keep Ukraine free to prevent Nuclear proliferation, bad enough Russia probably pawned a few warheads for Vodka...>>63048150And even Russia at least made a show of it's Potemkin village attempts!
>>63048150well that's a good thing cuz they shouldn't have invaded then
>its clear that such a hot conflict would mean nuclear war?This is the exact logic that led to the US Navy being gutted in the late 40s. The Air Force argued there would only exist two conflicts in the future: tiny localized conflicts the Army could easily handle, and all out nuclear war that the Air Force would win. Then Korea happened and the Navy responded to their orders to blockade Korea with "lmao we can't everything was either scrapped or mothballed"
>>63047511>when it's clear that such a hot conflict would mean nuclear war?Proxy wars exist and the US and USSR put their best planes against each other over Korea and Vietnam, also if you refuse to compete with their best then any country they supply can beat you.Lets say after 20 years of bombing mud huts the US decides they are only going to operate dirt cheap turboprop coin planes. China supplies the new Syrian government (whoever that ends up being long term) with J-20s and J-35s on the condition they join Iran, China and Russia offering all access to the Mediterranean.Clearly this is against US & NATO interests so they want to invade and overthrow the Syrian government but their crop dusters are useless and without air superiority NATO takes massive casualties before being pushed out. While it's expensive to compete with the best in the world if you have any interest in global affairs you need to. If you want to be Switzerland and focus on self defence with no interest in power projection then you can just sit on a heap of nukes and make it very clear you will use them in defence.
>>63047511because there is a scenario in which a conflict does not threaten the existence of an enemy state, and instead only threatens a claim to resources or influence. in such a case, an advanced, non-nuclear weapon that can be employed without ending the current taboo against the use of nuclear devices.
>>63048306>instead only threatens a claim to resources or influence. in such a case, an advanced, non-nuclear weapon that can be employed without ending the current taboo against the use of nuclear devices.But when will we do this via Giant Stompy Robot Fights?
>>63047511Because you don't stay a "power" if you don't.If America stops with the F-4 Phantom, eventually even shitty countries will be peers and then they also get nukes like the Pakis, the Indians and the North Koreans and suddenly you are not a power anymore, you are just another shit-hole country that think they are powerful because they have second rate planes and a few nukes. See Russia failing in Ukraine for an example of this. T-14 and Su-57 mass produced any day soon!!!
>>63047536Every nation is a landlord and ever tax is rent.
>>63048458And again, sadly, intelligence has little influence on inherited wealth...
>>63047511>invest in long range strike, precision strike, detection before strike>this willl clearly lead to nuclear warwtf?
>>63047511what if china invades a random island of japan? would you end the northern hemisphere over the indipendence of Hateruma? what if Kangaroo island gets surrounded by chinese ships? do you nuke everyone and call it a day?what if you could destroy the enemy nukes mid air / before they are launched.
>>63047511Think of diplomatic-military escalation as a card game. Nukes are the end game card that dictates that the enemy loses, but if the enemy also has the same card, they can also slam it at the table as counter. So a conflict between states that have no other cards but nukes is basically impossible to win, and you don’t really want to play the card unless you absolutely have to, neither does the enemy.So, by having a wider deck of cards that don’t instantly trigger an instant ”you lose - I lose - everyone loses” chain, you can actually achieve something. You could make power plays that the enemy would rather accept than escalate to nuclear. Or you can defend youself without ending up in a situation where your only choices are occupation or mutally assured destruction. They are the ones that give you the real power to manouver around the enemy and project power in appropriate form and scale. You want a situation where you are supreme to the enemy in all forms of warfare and can push them as hard as you can without taking things nuclear.
>>63049808This. The trick is that you never take everything away from your opponent. They might lose some territory, some trade rights, and a fuckton of money but ultimately they're still in the game.
>>63047511Israel flies with impunity over Syrian and Iranian airspace and they can do nothing about it. That's your answer.
>>63047511The idea behind having the "best" military possible, is to deter anyone from attacking it directly.If things ever escalate to nuclear at this stage in time, It probably won't matter anyway.
>>63047511Because nuclear war is a last resort that nobody wants to actually use?
>>63047522>Because it's not clearExcept it is. With how advanced weapons are now and how long they take to make (ships and subs take a decade each now) and planes require parts made throughout the entire world, creating new one during a conflict just isn't going to happen at any large scale. These aren't b-17s made out of the cheapest materials possible where a single nation can pump out 10,000 of them in a couple years.What you get at the start of a conflict is all you're going to get for the entire war. And what happens when you run out? You ain't got shit but your nuke stockpile. And once you're out of conventional arms, you've lost the war. So it's either unconditional surrender where you lose everything or you say fuck it and make sure the other guy loses everything as well. Meaning you might as well skip the conventional war part and go straight to nukes.>Nukes aren't the end-all-be-all of weaponsThey actually are. Half a dozen of them will erase even the largest cities from the planet, 1700 nukes being dropped on china or russia or the US will completely end that nation. They will be struggling to even feed their own people let alone wage a war. A hundred million would die in the nukes alone and another hundred million would starve to death.
>>63050152There are cases where you're nuclear option can be denied by conventional forces. ICBM launchers attacked by commandos and bombers, nuclear bombers shot down, and SSBNs sunk by attack subs. There's also the problem that if you get hit by nukes you'll lose EVERYTHING. Getting occupied by an enemy state will suck but you can make some diplomatic deals and concessions and be an independent nation after 10-20 years. It's also unlikely to even get that far since you can open peace negotiations after it's obvious you're not going to win quickly. Or possibly at all. You'll probably be forced to give something up and there's inevitably going to be international embarassment but it's better than losing your entire nation.
>>63047511Japan doesn't have nukes and yet are buying the F-35, why? Answer this and then kindly kill yourself.
>>63048021>dixie nagatoro How is Anne Frank supposed to be pregnant if it’s yuri though?
>why do powers invest in extremely advanced weaponry and strategies meant for peer oponents because thats what makes the MIC the most money, its basically a scam. Russia has proved in Ukraine you can prosecute a war perfectly well using rugged 50s shit like MTLB and tanks from the 70s and they fought against new fangled modern equipment with thermal vision and whatnot. It made no difference. When NATO spends billions on complicated electronic shit like the JDAM, Russia just attaches funny wings to bombs from dating back from WW2 and it works pretty much just as well
>>63049664You’re drunk tripfag go to sleep and read again brother
>>63050877> it works pretty much just as wellif the thing thats "working" is causing economic and demographic collapse, destroying any resource worth having, and sending trainloads of mobliks to the cube at a time, then sure, you might be on to something.
>>63050877>Russia has proved in Ukraine you can prosecute a war perfectly well yeah if you have no regard for your mens' lives.
>>63050877>perfectly well
>>63050916>per highmarsedYeah sure thing buddy. Glad your morale has been boosted though.
>>63050923Sorry did you forget part of your comment or was that the slam dunk, the vague smirk
>>63047511You can, and military planners generally intend to, win a nuclear war. Winning a nuclear war involves using extremely advanced weapons and strategies. These capabilities are necessary against all enemies, not just peer level threats, because information and control on the battlefield is the key limiting factor in both modern conventional and nuclear combat. The more damage you can do in a short period of time, the faster you can coordinate and adapt to attrition, and the better you can communicate a strike on enemy positions; the more of your capability you can preserve by taking enemy weapons out of the fight. This might sound reductive but nuclear strategy is just really big warfare. Entire formations and installations are targeted, maybe even destroyed, but the exchange of weapons follows all the same principles as missile age combat. The scale of destruction involved simply emphasizes the benefits of flexible command structures and the power of the data link. Of course, also, all the NBC capability taken for granted in that expensive equipment.
>>63050950scariest answer thus far
>>63050877>When NATO spends billions on complicated electronic shit like the JDAM>like the JDAM>A 22,000 USD conversion kit to make a conventional bomb into a PGM is too decadent and expensiveI'd call you a zigger retard. But I suppose you're *technically* correct on the billions being spent on JDAM since you US built over half a million of the kits. The global homo has fallen, gulag homo now reigns supreme.
>>63049808>So a conflict between states that have no other cards but nukes is basically impossible to win, and you don’t really want to play the card unless you absolutely have to, neither does the enemy.>>63050044>Because nuclear war is a last resort that nobody wants to actually use?"The only winning move is not to play.">>63050152>>63050544>There's also the problem that if you get hit by nukes you'll lose EVERYTHING.Yeah, MAD isn't an "I Win" button, it's flipping the damn table so nobody wins, possibly ruining things to the point no one will be able to play again.>>63050868>How is Anne Frank supposed to be pregnant if it’s yuri though?SCIENCE!
>>63047511we have super powered mind control weapons and illegal surveillance with coordinated stalking against people, but none of that shit is good enough against guns and bombs and jets.peer to peer warfare is ramping up because the mind control weapons convinced a lot of traumatized boomers they need to max out the military and kill people before they get smothered by pillows in the retirement homes for fucking with young people and expecting permanent slaves.ever notice how police officers are legitimately afraid of interacting like normal human beings?it's because their training protocols and expert advice comes from guilty boomers who murdered other Americans in cold blood.the guilt of these people knows no bounds.
>>63047511well nooks make a lot of long lasting damage - and in case of war you want to gain something all things considered - so using nooks (especially when you can be hit back with one) is not very good idea normally wars end when fighting is not longer sustainable - in and out two weeks - few months max - burning trough your population and reserves with marginal gains is clear sign of mental problems - or ego size of small planet...so if your target has military that guarantees high loses on your side even if you can grind a win eventually by swarming them with meatwaves makes it less likely that you will decide to invade them...
>>63051032For each $22,000 bomb conversion kit, you could have helped someone get a vehicle and a steady income situation to improve the lives of many.You fucking boomers need to breathe fresh air.
>>63051195that 22k bomb might kill two or three humans lessening the future economy of the ennemyalthough as we have seem russian lives don't seem to be valued as much so maybe I'm wrong
>>63051208What's better for Earth - kill 2 or 3 humans, or help a village of 100 with a means of self sustainment?Honestly you people are fucked in the head.Shame you're considered my countrymen.
>>63051214everyone is playing this prisoner game where they don't want to be the loser of the story so they para bellum more and more but statistically the peaceful option is the best option but the less likely to be chosen since being peaceful means being fucked in the ass if the other choses not to be.In all rationality we are meant to be fucked.The problem we have is that our leaders are too rational and cynical. The prisoner's game is proof than people in the know are more a danger to themselves than retards. This is the limit of a lifeform's intelligence.
>>63051232Our glorious world leaders are cowards. No one in real life knows these motherfuckers. They aren't hosting dinner parties like Colonial times would have.These police agents and their NASA space surveillance tech to enact brain-computer interfaces for illegal spying and cointelpro bullshit is getting people killed and making everyone act like an autistic hillbilly.
>>63051195>>63051214>For each $22,000 bomb conversion kit, you could have helped someone get a vehicle and a steady income situation to improve the lives of many.Jeez, Ya know what my friend? I hadn't ever considered that. If we spend money on guns, that's money not spent on feeding orphans or rescuing kittens from trees. I think I'm gonna telephone the boyar in charge of Nebraska Oblast and tell him about this crazy realization, and tell him that us Yankees should discontinue production of all weapons immediately. Though it's kinda strange that this "think of the children!" tangent came up immediately after a zigger got proven retarded on something they claimed. Makes me wonder if maybe they aren't actually interested in feeding orphans or rescuing kittens. Oh well. Here's an F-15 carrying 800,000 USD worth of small Diameter Bombs.
>>63051305Fuck. Wrong image.
>>63051305You create enemies around the globe, now you're warring for generations.You aren't helping anyone except yourself to line your pockets with department of defense funding.Honestly I can't wait until people like you simply drop dead.You're a pathetic coward.
>>63051310>You're a pathetic coward.Oh yeah? Well are YOU going to be calling Boyar in charge of your local Oblast about how we need to stop the production of all of these terrible overpriced weapons (that don't work anyway) like JDAM? Perhaps it is YOU who has become demoralized. Thought its understandable. I too feel many sad feelings as I down my vodka and ponder of all the kittens left to starve in trees so that this video could happen.
>>63051310Yes, the US is responsible for every war in the history of mankind, and if we defunded the military we'd have world peace. Post guns or >>>/leftypol/
>>63047511You can bomb brown people who can't read with f-35s much better than you can bomb chinamen with crop dusters. Overmatch > undermatch, one is expensive but the other is suicidal.Also, they allow you to brutally molest any country without a nuclear option with minimal loss of life to your own side, which means your citizenry won't really care unless they're a bleeding heart hippie.Also also, because nuclear powers often have interests beyond their borders and nukes do not provide a proportional response. For instance, if America decided on an "oops all nooks" strategy for national defense, China would be able to take Taiwan, and probably a lot of other territory as well, because a lot of things aren't worth ending the world over, and any deployment of nuclear munitions is seen as an attempt to do just that. Furthermore, unaligned countries really don't like the threat of nukes because nuclear war is retardo-destructive and even one warhead landing in their borders is going to be a catastrophic loss of life. North Korea is a pariah state for many reasons, but chief among them are that any time anyone does something they don't like they essentially threaten to cause the apocalypse. You cannot defend minor alies with nukes, you cannot project power for offensive or defensive reasons. you cannot hold on to minor territorial holdings, you can only wall yourself in and hope they they don't decide to test you.
>>63050877the fact that you immediately started blaming "landlords" told me you were a retardthe fact that you think Russia is doing "perfectly well" in their 3 day SMO tells me that you're a tankiebut I repeat myself
>>63051214>>63051195>>63051305>>63051309>>63051310>>63051032>>63051348>>63051541kill more people but also kill the guy shilling for nato fuck I hate this site>zigger>hows x oblastfuck you people are so fucking annoying and have made this board 10x gayer and it was already fucking gay, talk about whether or not nukes make generation 8 fighters a dumb idea or not, that's the thread topic
>>63051550I only used your own words against youif you think I said something stupid, you might wanna look in a mirroryour brought exhausted, cliched talking points to a gun fight, lad. >saying that Russia is doing perfectly fine does not make me a zigger!>pointing out that I'm actually wrong makes you a NATO shill though.
>>63051550I love it when they get so butthurt they ditch the script and start crying about how mean we are. I expect the TF2 bara porn dump to start any minute.
>>63051569That was my first post in this thread because you are making it unreadable and about your faggot propaganda campaign. Are nukes making increasingly advanced technology fucking stupid because your best technology would only ever be used in near peer fighting which only can happen between nuclear powers. Fuck russia, fuck ukraine, go talk about them in one of the 50 other threads about that conflict that nobody who has been on this site more than two years even visit because of your stupid flame wars.
>>63047511its fun to bully third worlders with advanced jets
>>63051550I mean you could just kill yourself instead vatnigger :)
>>63050152>ships and subs take a decade each nowno they don't
>>63051591but then I might miss the civil war and the chance to meet you :) unless you are posting from a dehli clickfarm
>>63051586it's been explained multiple times why conventional weapons still exist in the age of nukes.you're just an angry little faggot throwing a hissy fit because it wasn't the answer you wanted and now we're all making fun of you for being so goddamn stupid.
>>63051609hello I am the thread owner, this person is not memy question has pure honest and I got good answers out of it
>>63051661We know, it was a fun thread until the nato shills showed up.
>>63051669yes, it's terrible when facts contradict the propaganda you've been slurping. the incongruity is difficult to accept. It's hard to shill for gulaghomo when 1028 days of "victory" is there for all the world to see.
>>63051550> but also kill the guy shilling for nato fuck I hate this siteThe only person getting worked up about nato unprompted is you and the Ruskie fanboy here. >>63050877 also>Generation 8 fighter.This is a bit of a weird terminology slip up from a guy whose so passionate about the OPs original subject. Do you come from the 2090's?
>>63047511How are we supposed to track Santa now?
>>63050152>A hundred million would die in the nukes alone and another hundred million would starve to death.The west has fallen, that's just 20% of how many must die.
>>63050877
>>63051120>super powered mind control weaponsWaifu Warfare has not been perfected... yet.
>>63051195The US already spends ~$4-4.5 TRILLION annually on social programs, so, I don't know how defanging your country's military would be able to help anymore than the $4+ TRILLION already does. You're either a treasonous POS that wants the US to be without a military and defenseless so Russia and China can run over it unimpeded, or retarded. Which is it?
>>63047511it gives the capability of a flexible response between nothing and genocide.If mexico decided to annex the tip of texas, and we did not have a modern military to fight them, are we just going to nuke them now?if they also had nukes, how is that a winning move for us? without a conventional military, there is no opportunity for de-escalation or limited warfare.
because noone has fought a "peer" in a while and don't realize all their airfields would be crated & mined disasters in the first day of a peer on peer conflict
>>63047511>why do powers invest in extremely advanced weaponry and strategies meant for peer oponents when it's clear that such a hot conflict would mean nuclear war?Overmatch is what actually guarantees 'detente' with failed various degrees of communist states cum transnational criminal enterprises wearing the skinsuits of Westphalian Nation State entities. Russia has enough intermediate range nukes to attempt their version of progressive escalatory nuclear warfare while Europe is totally overmatch on volume without America in the picture-- and their allies in Beijing got away with a bioweapon release to 'fortify' Corn Pop four years ago (the 7th youngest Senator ever, bankrolled by verified Soviet Agent Armand Hammer - son of CCP USA co-founder - and caught red handed making treasonous statements while on holidy in the USSR documented in files smuggled out by defector Vladimir Bukovsky). Suffice to say-- if it ever was actually in question or close, these gamblers would've bet the farm on some horrific joint First Strike bullshit-- like they almost went through with during Able Archer '83 NATO excercises, in which they believed they had a window to win a first strike attempt, which was only forestalled by Brezhnev's cancer and the Party & Security wings being paranoid about getting coup'd in the blast bunkers by the Military. After that, sustaining military industry with steady business is a strategic imperative, and hand-me-downs off the shelf of God knows what spook shit ensure steady funding-- and steady funding ensure low time preference strategic and budgetary planning to continue pushing the true leading edge of technologies necessary to not ever be caught out like '83 again by criminal shitheels embarrassing themselves world-historically over in Eastern Europe.
>>63047511Because without strong conventional forces, you can't deter the enemy from fucking with you over non-existential issues you won't start a suicidal nuclear war over.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgkUVIj3KWY&ab_channel=JohnDoe
>>63047511>why do powers invest in extremely advanced weaponry and strategies meant for peer oponents when it's clear that such a hot conflict would mean nuclear war? because it'a not clear at allThere are many ways to lose a war that aren't catastrophic, as long as you have a military force at all. This is the lesson of WW1. A war must end in a way that is vaguely acceptable to all parties.
>>63047511There's more to conflict than total war. These things are mostly used to assert dominance over a region or trade route. Nukes aren't on the table when China is swinging their little chink dick around in the scs but we can send planes and boats to act aggressively and get them to back off.
learn game theory retard
>>63047511nukes are just bombs you need actual men on the ground to get some value out of your bombsactually nukes are worse than bombs coz they turn the land you captured into no-mans-land that will just end up being a liability.
>>63050877>When NATO spends billions on complicated electronic shit like the JDAM, Russia just attaches funny wings to bombs from dating back from WW2 and it works pretty much just as wellUMPK costs exactly the same as a JDAM kit
>>63050877>When NATO spends billions on complicated electronic shit like the JDAMJDAMs are free
