>Weighs as much as the m27 IAR>big as fuck boolet>13.7in barrel>30" OALTell me where on your body the Sig Spear/XM7 touched you
I find the aesthetics of the back of the receiver and the stock interface to be fucking revolting. As a non-warrior that's 90% of what matters to me in a gun. Can't look retarded
>>63099940weight of ammo is a big problem here you are looking at a either cutting the amount of ammo by half or carrying more wieght for the same amount
>>63099955>aestheticsCompletely irrelevant.
>>63099940People have severe AR fatigue. They offered us three options, a bullpupped FG42, a mini-Maxim, or an uninspired short-stroke AR with an even more barebones skeletonized hand guard and pistol grip literally control-C+control-Vd from the Magpul AR. Guess which one they decided that the entire western world will be spamming for the next half-century.
>>63099982Inaccurate. By far the most relevant factor unless you are one of the 2500 people in this country that kicks doors in reality.
I want bullpup potato gun
>>63099940>Made by one of the most fucking dogshit companies on the market>Selected due to a combination of nepotism, institutional retardation, and likely a desire to puff up said company as the new domestic manufacturer of choice (lmao)>Ugly>Unnecessary features like a folding stock>Cartridge is a lazy side-gradeI’m glad to finally get the early ‘2000s future we were promised of “everybody gets a short modern battle rifle with a can”, but a simple 13-14in SCAR or higher-end AR10 would do the exact same thing while being made by a company that again, is fucking untrustworthy dogshit. The bullpoop was a better option, as was the microplastic ammo. >Nooooo nooooo grunts can’t handle a simple manual of arms switch, they can only use ARs forever they have no room in their brains to be train on ANYTHING else NOOOOO Thankfully I hate and despise the feds, so them using the mediocre goyslop rifle made by inferior brown H1B imports only benefits me. Enjoy your bolt shear and having your face cheese-grated off, retards.
>>63100007The bullpup only lost because True Velocity are retards who>were too stubborn to offer a separate SAW>made the most shitty trigger in the history of triggers, ever, on a platform that is already infamous for being rejected bu the military because people hate the triggers
>>63100028The microplastics in my MREs ammo could be easily run in 240s, so it wasn’t a huge issue. I think the institutional fear of anything bullpup, as well as the inertia that plainly shows in chasing short BRs in current year with very flimsy justifications, played more into the selection over the trigger. But that’s just my opinion.
>>6309994014.5 pounds
>>63099940It's yet another AR-18 clone but with a non-reciprocating charging handle and a glorified bubba round and nuSig build quality.
>>63099940If it were a replacement for the DMR, yes absolutely. Replacing the M4 is going to be hard because they're refined and cheap, and the U.S. government loves cheap
The problem is with its weight, recoil, and cartridge size.Both the rifle and cartridge are heavier than the m4 and 5.56. You could only carry like 3 or 4 magazines before you have to pay a weight penalty over the m4+210rds.The excessive recoil precludes the use of full auto. Mag capacity is limited, so more frequent reloads.Hybrid case, though, is a breakthrough. It’s the only good thing to come out of the NGSW program.And if armor penetration is a concern, there is no reason they could not have achieved the exact same penetration qualities but with a .224 bullet instead. You could probabaly achieve the same sectional energy with a 5.56-sized cartridge for no to little weight penalty. But the army insisted on a .277 bullet.
>>63099940>It's really fucking heavy>It's really fucking expensive>But SIG got on their knees and sucked someone's balls to get this contract.
>made by sig>retarded AR charging handle>retarded external AR mag release and bolt catch>not a bullpup>tiny little [s]penis[/s] barrel>not caseless>no tungsten carbide barrel throat insert>no polygon riflingIt's like browning is still alive making terrible guns.
If you go >MUH WEIGHTor>MUH RECOILYou're a wimply little sissy faggot effeminated by 5.56.Your granddad carried 7.62, stop pretending 6.5 is big.Jesus fucking christ.
>>63100309You want a bullpup AK musket?
>>63100313Muh not enough ammo.
>>63099940I already have a P365. If I have two Sigs, people might start to realize I'm gay.
>>63099940Welcome back M14, can't wait to see you fail again.
Ugly, fat and brown just like the indians who get hired by sig
>>63100028>too stubborn to offer a separate sawTired of you faggots repeating this bullshit. EACH WEAPON WAS TO BE INDIVIDUALLY EVALUATED AND WAS NOT MEANT TO HAVE ANY BEARING ON THE OTHER WEAPONS SELECTION. BEING A BELTFED WAS NOT A REQUIREMENT. BEING MAGAZINE FED WAS NOT GROUNDS FOR EJECTION FROM THE PROGRAM.
>>63100281None of those manufacturers are German, is that the joke wtf?
>>63100533Grossedeutsches Wertarbeit
>>63100533wtf I always thought austria was in germany
I've read all of these posts before
>>63099940>>big as fuck booletThere's your problem
>>63099985>control-C+control-Vdthere were 100 better ways to type this and I had to read it twice to understand what your dumb nigger ass was trying to say
>>63100299Hybrid case isn't really a breakthrough, it's just iterating on what we already have. The PCT from Textron was a breakthrough. Sucks Textron got cucked by patents
>>63100986Retvrn to 7.62 NATO. Angry bees are a retarded idea from pre-body armor times.
>>63100916
>>63101097No rifle cartridge can penetrate Lv4 plates beyond a few yards. And Level 4 plates are cheap on both sides of the Pacific.
what bothers me is the insane recoil of the full power .277 rounds. watch footage of dudes at the range shooting it and its pushing them around like crazy, and these are gun enthusiasts. now give that to a grunt who barely practices and expect him to make good hits.
>>63101163I had heard the opposite from the range reports once they made it to the few units that already have them. People said it was surprisingly manageable
>>63101163Is that bad capture? I'm seeing more casings being ejected in the Polymer half of the gif than the Brass half. Making it look like they're getting more recoil from the Polymer rather than the Brass because of the rate of fire, instead of anything to do with the bullet.
>>63100429the NGSW program was primarily supposed to replace the M249 and M240. a bullpup rifle with a 20 rd magazine will never even begin to come close to a belt fed machine gun in terms of suppressive fire capability and logistics. That sole factor is what lost GD/Beretta the contract, because their machine gun was abysmally bad. Textron lost both the rifle and machine gun bids because their moving chamber bullshit was extremely overcomplicated, fragile, and impossible to clean without completely stripping the gun at an armorer level. by comparison to those two options, and compared to our previous machine guns, the sig LMG was infinitely better in terms of weight, reliability, effective range, and accuracy, which meant we got stuck with the mcx spear as the rifle instead of the rm277
>>63101163fuddlore from the half assed .308 and earlier versions of the Spearhttps://youtu.be/ZZ3bbUw3skw?t=1303just got to get with the process
>>63101249>the NGSW program was primarily supposed to replace the M249 and M240.NGSW was never intended to replace the M240. The M240 is a far more capable weapon, although much heavier.
>>63101249>chamber bullshit was extremely overcomplicated, fragile, and impossible to clean without completely stripping the gun at an armorer levelExplain.
>>63101315He can't because he's full of shit
>>63101298How is it more capable? The 6.8 is a hotter round than 7.62.
>>63099940it's a rifle that was designed for some corn fed 6'4 Ranger Batt SPC and not the average 150 pound soaking wet 11B PVT. Just like the M14 it's gonna fucking suck lugging it around with a full pack after multiple days of movement. Then when you inevitably get into contact with the enemy your not gonna hit shit because the recoil hits like a fucking bull. Also your not even gonna have the ammo to suppress the enemy when your belt feds go down and now you just stuck getting fucked. What the army should have done was just replace all the current M4's with the URGI M4's, I've used a URGI M4 before and it worked like a fucking dream.
>>63101393The army should have just continued development of the LSAT, 5.56CT was shorter than 5.7 and thinner than .40SW. If it weren't for Milley and his obsession with battel rifles and "overmatch" against mountaintop PKMs we could have had 5.56 the size of pistol rounds, but he had to try and combine his abortive ICSR with the LSAT in hopes of a lightweight super battle rifle only to end up adopting sigshit.
>>63099940>Half a pound heavier than the M27>2 full pounds heavier with suppressor it NEEDS to function>Despite the M27 having quad rail vs mlok>Heavy as shit ammoHeavy as shit magazines>Dumb as fuck short barrel that feels like shooting .300 win mag>Akward as shit weight balance>Doesn't actually penetrate body armot>Spesial Snooper rifle scope that will turn every rifleman into Chris Kyle has a battery life of 5 hours, before turning into a 3 pound paper weight LPVOWOW, how innovative.
>>63101298>The Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW) program is a United States military program created in 2017 by the U.S. Army to replace the 5.56mm M4 carbine, the M249 SAW light machine gun, and the 7.62mm M240 machine gun, with a common system of 6.8mm cartridges and to develop small arms fire-control systems for the new weapons.[1][2]>>63101315textron for some reason has spent the last 20 years trying to develop a gun that has a vertically traveling chamber completely separate from the barrel and using ammo where the bullet is completely rebated within the polymer casing. i believe their reasoning is it reduces recoil because you essentially only have a firing pin reciprocating back and forth compared to a complete bolt carrier, but it makes the rest of the system excessively complicated. to clean it, you have to separate the upper from the lower, disconnect the firing pin from the chamber, remove the chamber, and remove the firing pin. from there you can clean the chamber and barrel like normal albeit separately, clean the firing pin channel in the breech with a special tiny brush, and clean the bolt and trigger and ejector mechanism without too much trouble. the issue is that the piston system is blocked under the top of the receiver, and the only way to access it is to reach a long screwdriver down the front of the gun to unscrew the gas plug and then tip the rifle downwards to let the piston fall free
>>63101474Moving chambers are not new, and they're used so that the gun can use telescoping ammunition. Having watched this video, it is slightly more complicated to disassemble than and AR but not by much.https://youtu.be/pYqEJsMLg_g?t=490
>>63101474>I believe the reason is reduced recoilThat's because you're a tard. The reason is so that they don't have to figure out how to make polymer telescoped cases that can handle extraction, you just push them out of the chamber with the next round
>>63101568gotcha, that animation might have been based on one of the earlier prototypes
>>63099940>Weighs as much as the m27 IARWhere does this bullshit keep coming from, it's literally 2.5 pounds heavier than the IAR
>>63099940My foreskin
>>63101270>just got to get with the process>GOOBERS GROUPDo you have any evidence from non-Sigger shills? Every video of people shooting the full power ammo, and in some cases the weak ammo, the recoil is ver noticeable and pushes the shooter around.
>>63099940>80,000 psi of pure rifling eroding plastic cased powerThat Russian egg carton and Chinese corn cobb body armor doesn't stand a chance even if the US only averages one kill per 900,000 rounds fired.
>>63099940Meh. We shall see. While on paper this thing is supposedly going to be an Armywide weapon, I suspect in reality it will go to GRF type units as a hedge against China. The logic of this gun is pretty much purpose made to slot into a war with China- the only feasible opponent that could be mass issuing body armor (even if it turns out to be steel trash armor). As I see it, there are 3 possible outcomes:1. US doesn't get into a hot war with China in the next decade or two, tensions cool and the .277 gets quietly retired2. US does get into a fight with China and the .277 works as advertised and shreds Chicom armor. It cements itself as the standard for NATO3. US gets into a fight with China and the .277 isn't really good in practice. It gets retired and 5.56 comes back. I don't know what the outcome will be. I do think it's interesting that Army Special Forces, and Delta both seem uninterested in .277
NGSW and 6.8x51 wasn't created to defeat armor it was to increase range.
>>63102539Eh, both those things pull in the same direction and demand the same superlatives.
As a Sigger, I can confirm the Spear is utter dogshit.
>>63099940It's like if someone promised SPAWAR an all new destroyer with multiple laser and rail gun armament and they got a flight 3 Alreigh Burke with a 5.2" gun. Why are you complaining? It's an upgrade!
>>63102539It's a pity it's not accurate enough to make use of its longer range.>3.5 MOA with match ammo lmao
>>63101474That's the fantasy of some Wikipedia editor. Follow the citation to the Army program description and it says this:>The effort aims to field to the Close Combat Force (CCF) with the NGSW-R as the planned replacement for the M4A1 and the NGSW-AR as the planned replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon.At no point was the NGSW-AR ever intended to replace any number of M240s.
>>63102565yeah man I think they might have thought about it a bit
>>63100300>>But SIG got on their knees and sucked someone's balls to get this contract.There was no need for that. They just looked at more than half a century of US small arms procument programs - from Project SALVO, to SPIW, to OICW and how else they were all called and what was procured in the end in each case - and correctly concluded that that despite all that leapfrog tech requirement talk the US will always go with the most conservative approach.
>>63101378Designed with tripod mounting integrally. Configurable to a variety of fixed mounts.QC barrel. Designed for sustained fire. Durability as the number 1 factor over weight or ergonomics.The M240 is just a heavier and stronger firearm than any of the NGSW-AR applicants.
>>63101474This is a more accurate representation of the Textron rifle.
>>63103945FWIW here's their MG
>>63100429>Offer inferior system for a LMG>BUT IT WASN"T SPECIFICALLY BANNED WHY AREN'T YOU ADOPTING ME
>>63100916https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac9wOhHFW0A&pp=ygUfZ2VvcmdpYSBpcyBpbiBmbG9yaWRhIGlkaW9jcmFjeQ%3D%3D
>>63103945>Ayo lets put the ejection port right where you need to hold the rifle
>>63101474>believe their reasoning is it reduces recoilReason is Textron polymer round is literally abortion fetus of the G11.Literally.Textron bought G11 TDP and rights and their goal was making caseless round based on G11 design. With caseless you kinda stuck with push through ejection and moving chamber, and they grandfatherred telescopic from G11.But caseless failed. Polymer round was back up solution that grandfathered design of G11... And this doesn't make any sense. If you want polymer just make polymer round like True Velocity did.
>>63102499War in Ukraine demonstrated that tiny cope DAPI plates are literally irrelevant. Existing assault rifles deal with cope plate equiped infantry just fine.
>>63100916Germany is in Austria *flexing arm emoji* *flexing arm emoji*
>>63104001CT ammo is min-maxed towards volumetric compactness and cheap production. Rims are expensive and require good engineering to not shear off easily. Which on polymer can take a good bit of effort. IIRC, True Velocity used tungsten powder and shit to give their cases more strength. But it requires fundamentally different action designs to conventional systems.
>>63102539>>63102565It was originally called ICSR and created for stopping power. The armor/range/stopping power memes were only justifications. The last boomer generals wanted a big bore bullet. That's it. Reality doesn't have to make sense.
>>63104019>CT ammo is min-maxed towards volumetric compactnessCT 6.8mm 20 rounder mag has same length as 7.62x51 25 rounder pmag. (That BTW with Textron using compacted powder charge with 40% more loading density)."volumetric compactness" and "cheap production" my ass.
>>63104001Telescoped ammo predates Textron's NGSW project. Look at the CTA40mm autocannon in Europe. It's steel cased and 30+ years old.
>>63104053Girthmaxxed but length and weight minimized. The Chode of cartridges.
>>63099982Aesthetics are arguably the most important aspect of a weapon
>>63104055Only Textron didn't coppied that project.They literally bought G11 and started copying it. Unsuccessfully , then program went full retard.
>>63104062>look, we minimized dimension that doesn't matter, and maximized dimension that reduces magazine capacity! Smart!>weight minimized. True Velocity 6.8 is 0.5 grams lighter (again despite Textron using compacted powder charge).
>>63104088>TV3200fps out of 16">TXRON3500fps out of 16">SIGGER3000fps out of 13"
>>63099940This feels less like a natural progression of the infantry rifle and more made by a committee with the only unifying factor being they all had stocks in SIG
>>63103974Get back to me when you understand how military procurement works you dumb nigger.
>>63099940I was going to write an effort post but my shit ended faster than anticipated.So instead, a prediction: it's the new M14. It will get cycled out fast when we see combat again but it will live on as a DMR for like 60 years. Heed these words.
>>63101249If a box fed SAW was a disqualification, it would have been stipulated in the project requirements that the submission must be belt fed. Even if that was the the case, the SAW submission losing doesnt have any bearing on how the rifles were to be evaluated. SIGs rifle is complete shit. Their machinegun is pretty good design wise, sans not having a QD barrel, which funny enough is exactly what the army wanted. They dont intend on the SAW using enough ammunition to need a QD barrel.
>>63104685What does the D stand for in this context? Quick Disconnect? I don't think that's the appropriate terminology for barrels.
>>63104714What terminology would you prefer to use for a machine gun that possesses a barrel that can be quickly removed without tools?
>>63104685The accuracy requirements on the test basically precluded having one, I think. The Army basically figures that most soldiers never actually swap barrels and weight is already a big problem, and with those fancy silencers on every gun a loose barrel is actually an expensive commodity. So better to get two birds stoned at once and just make the barrel fixed outside of an armory.
>>63104716Quick-change barrel.
>>63104726Thats their theory. But its pretty stupid imo to not include a qd barrel so this machinegun could be used in other roles. The weight penalty between this exact machine gun with QD is negligible. If they dont want loose barrels around for this role specifically, they could simply not issue one.
>>63104740Mkay captain autismo, QC barrel it is.
m27 iar doesn't use a QD QC or whatever dick swap term either
>>63104000It isn't where you hold it in any modern sense. Seemed like mag well grip is cool again but only when talking about the Textron. That said, I don't know why they didn't essentially bullpup it and have it eject reward. Maybe a weight balance issue
>>63102656the NGSW-AR is supposed to replace the M240 at the hand-held squad level temporarily. the M240 is sticking around as a mounted gun for a few more years until the army adopts one of the .338 lapua machine guns to replace it and the M2 at all levels>>63104685being box fed wasnt an instant disqualification retard. it just made it infinitely worse to use as a machine gun. you can't run long sustained bursts and you can't carry the ammo as efficiently. there's a reason no first world military has used magazine fed machine guns since the 60s>but muh M27is a replacement for the M4A1, the M249 is being completely phased out of use because the marines are retarded and going back to the M14/M15 mindset of "every soldier is a sniper, but we'll give one guy in the squad a bipod and let him use full auto while everyone else is banned from doing so"
>>63104001That's not at all what it is. The Textron project was from old acr steyr ideas. It has nothing in common with the g11 except that it's through feed, the way the chambers move and how they go about moving and feeding them is entirely different. Textron's design has distinct advantages over true velocity's, most notably that there is no extractor to break and the case head can't be ripped during extraction. Getting a strong enough engagement between the case head and the polymer case is the hardest part about making PC cartridges because you can't just make the case head out of polymer like you can with push through
>>63104827>going back to m14/m15 mindsetNo they're not, they're going back to light infantry mindset.
>>63104001>Textron bought G11 TDP and rights and their goal was making caseless round based on G11 design.Textron's rifle does not use a cartridge based on caseless ammunition and you probably have no idea why the G11 failed.>hint, throat erosion
>>63104773Yeah but the marines use it as a regular infantry rifle
>>63104827>being box fed wasnt an instant disqualification retard.No shit retard, it should have been if they were going to choose a winner based on it being belt fed you absolute moron. >it just made it infinitely worse to use as a machine gunIt is a SAW role, not a "machine gun">you can't run long sustained bursts and you can't carry the ammo as efficiently.You arent meant to use any machinegun in long bursts dipshit, the amount of ammunition this SAW was supposed to use doesnt extend into the ammount where a QD barrel would be needed, obviously because the XM250 EXCLUDED ONE SPECIFICALLY.The fact of the matter is the entire program was flawed from the beginning, which is my entire point. Any idiot spouting how stupid GD was (You), for submitting a box fed automatic rifle for their submission is a midwit that doesnt understand how procurement works. There are only two options here you fucking idiot, either being Boxfed was specifically NOT a disqualifying factor due to GD getting to the end of the program in the first place, or the program was intended for SIG to win from the beginning and the whole thing was a sham.
>>63099940Russian trolls mostly
>>63101568Isn't it the other way around? Telescoping ammunition is used to enable moving chambers, because moving chambers come with a number of advantages. There's no other reason to use telescoped ammunition, apart from some basically pointless geometric compromises that reduce ammunition length and weight.
>>63105229>reduce ammunition length and weight>basically pointless geometric compromisesyeah
>>63105229moving chambers are terrible but they enable push through cycling which produces rimless cartridges which allow significantly higher chamber pressures
>>63105370Entirely eliminating a failure to eject is a pretty cool feature.
>>63105391Replacing failure to eject with timing issues like a revolver is not a good trade.
>>63105700I dont see how a falling block-esque chamber in textrons NGSW submission is anything at all like revolver timing but ok anon.
>>63099940Why do modern rifles have to be so fucking tall?
>>63101393What's the URGI M4?
>>63105895An M4 taken to its limithttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3njoXqvWYI&t=198s
>>63104714quick detach
>>63099940>Sigger riggers, again (IP theft from competitor ...)>recapitulation of .280 British & FAL cucking by Ordinance Board Fudds 70 years agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mby4hOq-DpIHybrid round gets you battle rifle and beyond ballistics at the weight of 556, but it's a very roundabout and dishonest way to streamline a catchall SAW/M110 et. al. one and done replacement, while doing nothing to alloy concerns about absolutely corrupt trials/procurement criteria.
>>63106464Its a (largely) brass cased rifle round the same size as 7.62NATO and 6.5CM, it weighs much more than 5.56.
>>63100007>one ofCome come, Mr. Bond, Sig has become THE most fucking dogshit company on the market.
>>63106595It’s a hell of an improvement over 7.62. I’m surprised that’s not what it’s intended to replace. If I woke up from a coma and you told me the army has a new round and it’s the 6.8, I’d go “oh sick so they replaced 7.62 and their GPMGs”
>>63105910I’m disappointed your video is not the forgottenweapons clip of the Armswest m4. THAT is peak m4.
>>63106464> battle rifle and beyond ballistics at the weight of 556Nah, the increase in energy isn’t quite that high, but it gets close, yeah. With high BC bullets you could totally retain 308-tier energy at range. And if you used the much lighter NAS3 case from shell shock, 2000+ft*lbs from a cartridge that weighs as much as a 5.56 is doable.The 6.8 is just a terrible execution of the hybrid case. It ought to be used to improve slightly on the 5.56’s ballistics, while shrinking the case some, and using VLDs to make the most of the already diminutive energy.
>>63101121so what you are saying is each man should carry a .338 lpm bolt action and short m4?
>>63099940m16 is better, so is ak
>>63099940fucking garbage MIC bribing sig shit stickFUCK SIGGERS
>>63099940Unnecessary gun being shilled as a solution to a non-existent problem. It's also widely perceived as a doctrinal regression to the M14.
>>63104827>the NGSW-AR is supposed to replace the M240 at the hand-held squad level temporarily.The XM250 is not planned to replace ANY M240s.>.338 lapua.338 Norma Magnum
>>63105361The key word here is compromise, let's not pretend you didn't see that. Or maybe you're an ESL who doesn't understand the word? It increases the diameter of the cartridge, which makes ammunition bulkier. Which means magazine of the same length contains less bullets. Ammunition length is basically pointless. Ammunition weight isn't, but a lot of weight is in the magazine, and it isn't worth reducing a magazine's capacity.
>>63099982go back
>>631069176.5 Creedmoor is replacing 7.62 for precision rifles, .338 norma is eventually gonna replace both 7.62 and .50 bmg for machine guns
>>63107113technically the sig and ohio ordnance machine guns are capable of using .338 lapua, .338 norma, .300 norma, and 7.62x51, kind of like the barrett mrad. they'll be firing whatever's available to them, or whatever's most appropriate for a given situation
>>63108460Well yeah, anything chambered for one of the large magnums can be chambered for any of the others since they're all dimensionally similar. But .338 Norma is the cartridge that the Army selected.
>>63101121>hit someone somewhere there’s no plate with a 5.56 >they keep shooting at you >hit someone somewhere there’s no plate with a .277>they stop shooting at you I’m not saying this is what happens, but I think this is at least what the theory is, and it’s plausible enough that I don’t think anyone’s a retard who believes it
>>63099940>gay>not .3-oh-hate>dinky fucking magpul stock>somehow made the AR style charging handle worthless and fragile>gay
>>63111176Do I need to post Grosskreutz's spicy bicep again?
>>63111242Again I’m not personally advocating the position, but just to defend it 5.56 disabled the arm5.56 would have also blown his brains out So first we notice there are some places on the body that any trauma will be effective at accomplishing some goal Secondly, Grosskruetz, were he a trained fighter, may have been able to carry on with his other armBut perhaps .277 would have done enough damage to the arm to put him in shockSo again I don’t think the idea is retarded
>>63111176If you have to increase the bullet’s energy by 2.5x to achieve the desired effect of incapacitation, That would imply 5.56 is utterly useless and has been for the last 60 years. That’s simply not the case. It’s not likely that anyone is gonna walk off a gunshot by ANY intermediate cartridge anywhere on the body.As for shooting where there’s no armor, it sounds very reasonable. But is it? The army is apparently terrified of level 4 armor, that only covers maybe a hundred square inches of the body. Is shooting the pelvis/head/neck/arms/legs not a viable strategy or something? I’d think that the response to a reduction in the size of the hit zone would have been to increase the amount of ammo soldiers carry to make up for the drop in hit probability. But the overall change wouldn’t be too much, since ~90% of the body is still exposed flesh.
>>63111258Too many concessions must be made to accomodate the 6.8x51 - namely in weight, recoil, and combat load size - that it’s not worth the marginally increased chance of incapacitation by a shot to the arm (in this example).But would someone with grosskreutz’s bicep injury really be able to carry on fighting? His arm was hanging on by a thread at the elbow. Shouldnt you rush to seek medical attention lest you die of blood loss? And if you do keep fighting, just how effective are you going to be? Arms are important, you know.
>>63111242OMG!! YASSSS! Hecking based Kyle hit that commies arm and look at the damage. That means every soldier who has every bitched about the M249's stopping power issues is wrong. That one shot from feet away is the standard by which all cartridges should be judged. No way bullet wounds are chaotic and sometimes you get needle through.>>63111258If he had even been a committed noivce fighter actually willing to shoot first he could easily have dumped into him prior. He was at a distance were you're not really going to miss. Kyle is alive because that guy pussied out on pulling the trigger.
>>63099940the M27 IAR is equally as retarded but in different ways. Talking to Marines who have used one and they all tell me that they would MUCH rather be using an M4 or M16 if they can get their hands on one because the M27 is heavy as fuck. That being said, the M27 was only adopted due to bureaucratic retardation in the US government, whereas the Sig was adopted due to pure army fuddism(yes I mean it) and corruption
>>63112685The M16A4 is within less than half a pound of the M27. The M4 is the outlier here. The M14 is heavier than the aforementioned. The Galil is the same weight as the M16A4. The Bren and SCAR are only slightly less. G3 is same as the M27. L85 is a bit less. Famas G2 is about the same as A4. FAL is heavier. AK74 variants are the only ones around the M4. 130lb Depression babies used the Garand which weighs more.
>>63113094>M4 is an outlier>depression babiesnot even gonna dignify you with a real retort. Enjoy your tokenary (you) dumb nigger
I don't mind it, isn't the most pleasing to look at, but also isn't the ugliest. Seems like it shoots pretty good from the videos I've seen. /k/is full of insta-larpers and social media queens, so looks count for a majority of the metric for rating rifles while stupid gimmicks like >>63100309 make up the rest around here. And then you have guys like >>63101163 who should just stick to playing Playstation.
>>63111445>>63111458>>63112379See I agree overall like I’m saying that .277 overall is probably not worth it I just get really tired of people talking about it like there’s absolutely no reason to favor such a thing.
in a perfect world we would've just converted our M4 variants to 6.8spc and slowly phased them out for the far more reliable XM8, also in 6.8spc. replacing the whole lot with SIG xm7s was the dumbest waste of money.
>>63114347unfortunately, military leaders are more politicians than they are soldiers, and don't want to do anything that they won't benefit financially from
>>63114347The 6.8 meme needs to die. That cartridge is worse than 5.56 in every regard, except for a slight bump in muzzle energy.The parent case and aftermarket receivers and mags are excellent, and something could be done with those, but in order for the cartridge to make sense it would have to be like a 6mm SPC
>>63114475>115 grain .30 cal bullet in 5.56 case>slight bump in muzzle energy>+40% in 300ydslmao>According to most military analysis, the average distance of a military engagement is considered to be around 300 yards (or meters), with most infantry firefights happening within this range due to limitations in effective firing distance and accuracy at longer ranges. 6.8spc is better than 5.56 in every regard within 300 yards. it would be better if all standard infantry had 6.8spc, and everybody would agree a .30 cal 7.62 NATO is better than 5.56 at longer ranges (300yds+)..30 is just better than .22, keep coping fag.
>>63114724If you aspire to optimize for retained energy at 300 yards, you would use a bullet much longer than those loaded in the 6.8 SPC. Weight is also a high order concern in a military cartridge as well, and 6.8 is far heavier than 5.56. By something like 5 grams iirc (2.2lbs/210rds)But the impetus for 6.8 SPC developement was to make a cartridge with better external ballistics than 5.56. And to that end, they failed, both because of the low overbore ratio of the 6.8 and its very short ogive space. It’s just a poorly designed cartridge that doesn’t know what it is or what it wants to be. If you cut the case down by a few mm, necked it down to 6mm, and loaded it to normal pressures, it certainly would be a contender for a new military cartridge. But in its current incarnation, it just a heavier, higher recoiling version of 5.56 with really nothing to show for it.
>>63114724>30 is better than 22You sound like those boomers who have a religious reverence for some arbitrary caliber. If what you want is long range capability, you want the smaller caliber. You care about bullet length, shape, and sectional energy over everything else. Increasing caliber only hurts the trajectory.
>>63111445>As for shooting where there’s no armor, it sounds very reasonable. But is it? The army is apparently terrified of level 4 armor, that only covers maybe a hundred square inches of the body. Is shooting the pelvis/head/neck/arms/legs not a viable strategy or something? I’d think that the response to a reduction in the size of the hit zone would have been to increase the amount of ammo soldiers carry to make up for the drop in hit probability. But the overall change wouldn’t be too much, since ~90% of the body is still exposed flesh./k/ is bipolar on this. SMGs/PCCs are obsolete despite weight, recoil, etc. advantages because they don't pen armor, won't cause any significant BABT, and plates can often take many rounds before failing, but then the same exact thing is true of 5.56mm and this is actually totally a non-issue for 5.56mm because actually what matters is volume, weight, and recoil, etc. >inb4 "hurrr /k/ is one personNo, it isn't, but these are two very popular opinions, despite going in contrary directions.
>>63115066SMGs are obsolete because the ammo weighs only slightly less or the same as 5.56, has much less range, and much worse terminal ballistics. They're only advantage over 5.56 is suppressibility and lighter guns.
>>63115116If well less than half for say, 5.7x28mm, is "slightly" then sure.
>>63115159I was thinking 9mm since only the P90 and Ruger LC use 5.7 but it would be nice if there were more options.
>>63099940Poor quality control, fundamental issues with the design itself, the rim of the case is constantly ripped off during training exercises and jams the gun while the rest of the case is ejected.
>>63101270It seems like all of these dudes hate it.
>>63102539>belt-fed>no quick change barrelThat LMG is pants-on-head retarded.
>>63102648Wait. what? kek.
>>63099940The should've just had Knight's Armament build an AR-10 in the new caliber.
>>63114724peak midwittery, which seems to be a common trait among NGSW proponents that didn't jump ship after the SIG rifle was chosen
>>63099940Will Army/MC suppressorfags still get the bayonet as a combat knife/tool or no?>>63099982Hello Mr AI
>>63115066Pistol calibers also have dogshit range and far worse barrier penetration than 5.56. And Their weight and recoil is about equal. Not fair to equate the two just cause neither can defeat level 4 armor
JUSTMAKEAFUCKINGBULLPUPYOU STUPIDBOOMER RETARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>63101193Those range reports were wrong
>>63114948they tested all the way from 5.56 SPC up to 7.62 SPC. 6.5 SPC had great long range ballistics but average muzzle energy, 6.8 SPC had decent long range ballistics and great muzzle energy. everything else was garbage, so 6.8mm was ultimately chosen as the best round in the testing
>>631156915.56 SPC pictured here
>>63114724>6.8spc is better than 5.56 in every regard within 30...ACK!https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/04/not-so-special-a-critical-view-of-the-6-8mm-spc/
>>63115691>all these terrible short ogive bullets with form factor of bricksClueless boomers paws typed this report
>>63115691One wonders why they even bothered testing desu. Obviously as caliber goes up, so will muzzle energy (efficiency), but trajectory will suffer.If they want good external ballistics, the case length is too long for the 2.26” COAL. Like I said they should have cut it down and used a smaller caliber bullet.
>>63115725Thanks for posting that, I should keep the link forever so I can post it everytime someone brings up 6.8SPC.
>>631151779mm is obsolete. It seems harder to say SMGs are obsolete, especially when police forces and militaries across the world keep buying more and putting out RFPs for them. There will always be use cases for firearms that can be significantly lighter, shorter, and quieter. SBRs are in many sense a *compromise.* They don't offer the best of both worlds, but rather a mix of the two with some drawbacks.Of course, now people distinguish between SMGs, PDWs, etc. "Oh, the Army didn't just get a new SMG because the Sig Rattler isn't an SMG." IDK, it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, gets used like a duck...Ammo is evolving. 5.7mm isn't the only option. Obviously, .300 BO has become popular as well. But there are other options. The 6.5x25mm of the CBJ were at least an interesting demo, and there are other modern updates. Chinese 5.8×21mm DCV05 is an interesting concept as well.
>>63115661It's the trigger. The only company to make a usable trigger for a bullpup is fucking Kelt-Tec of all people. TV are full of retards. The exact second the NGSW testers grazed their fingers on that 3000lb machine gun trigger they threw the RM277 in the dumpster and it became a competition between the telescopic gun and the Sig.Just look at Israel. They have one of the best bullpups in the entire world and even they are getting sick of the Tavor's heavy trigger and switching to ARs. It's literally the trigger. That's it. Every time people ask for a bullpup, companies shit the bed when trying to make the trigger
>>63115684Where did you personally fire that rifle? gnjgjo
>>63101163>insane recoilIt doesn't.
>>63115725>As previously mentioned, it is beyond the limitations of the Powley Computer to generate velocities for the Mk. 262 round due to its high pressure. Powley calculations are also not truly representative of the performance possible from the 6.8mm SPC round, due to Powley being limited only to older IMR-type propellants, where the 6.8mm SPC performs best with newer propellants such as H335.>For these reasons, when examining the ballistics of both the Mk. 262 round and 6.8mm SPC, I will be using non-calculated, non-empirical velocity figures based on the common performance of the two rounds. While the velocities used are not taken from any particular sources (as it is very difficult to find a truly controlled evaluation of the two rounds), I have done my best to choose figures representative of the actual performance of the two rounds from 18″ barrels with Spec II or DMR chambers.see https://slideplayer.com/slide/8379218/ for ACTUAL real world testing, not some fat boomer using a ballistic calculator from 20036.8 SPC from a 16" barrel has 99% identical performance in muzzle velocity, drop, and wind drift to 77gr 5.56 from an 18" barrel while offering substantially higher muzzle energy at all ranges>but muh bolt lifethe LMT bolts developed for the 6.8 SPC program have the exact same estimated lifespan as a normal 5.56 Enhanced Bolt in a standard M4A1>However, at the same time the 6.8mm SPC’s chamber dimension issue had not yet been solvedthat issue was the result of some retard gunsmith picking up spent 6.8 brass from Barrett's testing and using that as the basis for commercial chamber dimensions, rather than using an unfired casing.
The sig lmg was the real goal, these are gonna be thrown at Rangers with everyone else rocking M4s.
What would be the correct caliber to defeat a well funded military where every soldier has level 3 plates or higher?>has to be mass produced>has to be versatile>shouldn't involve creating an entirely new industry>must be cheap
>>63118041B83
>>63118076*blocks your path*
>>63099982Not all aesthetic weapons are good and successful in service, but all successful weapons in service are aesthetic.
>>63118103I need to get off the internet. The first thing I did was look for Saddam
>>63118041Level 3 is trivial to defeat with any bottlenecked cartridge, no?Then the answer is just 5.56. >>63117981The increase in muzzle energy comes with a commensurate (or greater) increase in WEIGHT. If the name of the game was just muzzle energy, at any cost, then everybody would be rocking 50 BMGs. Nevertheless, the 6.8’s energy advantage isn’t even much, it’s like 300ft*lbs at the muzzle.If the 6.8SPC wasn’t designed by retards, it could have had FAR better external ballistics (77gr 5.56 isn’t exactly good, it’s just better than m193/m855). The caliber is too big, and the ogive is too short.Ideally, you would keep muzzle energy to a MINIMUM, actually, and instead maximize energy retention, so the bullet is doing the same thing (or better) at 300yds or whatever, but with less propellant in the first place. This way you can shrink and lighten the case, increase mag capacity, and reduce recoil. Qualities that make a cartridge very attractive as a military cartridge. The 5.56 would benefit tremendously from longer, higher BC bullets. There is no need to move up in caliber.I criticize 6.8 SPC even though I own a rifle chambered in that cartridge. I was stoked on it when I built the rifle, but have become disillusioned since after some fucking around with ballistics computers.
>>63120204>Level 3 is trivial to defeat with any bottlenecked cartridge, noyou can't be serious
>>63120274My mistake. I was conflating it all with level 3a
>>63120204>Level 3 is trivial to defeat with any bottlenecked cartridge, no?if that's the case, why can't 5.56 defeat level 3?>The increase in muzzle energy comes with a commensurate (or greater) increase in WEIGHTthe increase in weight and magazine size is insubstantial, especially compared to the sig spear (twice the ammo weight for ten less rounds)>the 6.8’s energy advantage isn’t even much, it’s like 300ft*lbs at the muzzle600 ft/lbs, from a 2" shorter barrel>If the 6.8SPC wasn’t designed by retards, it could have had FAR better external ballistics (77gr 5.56 isn’t exactly good, it’s just better than m193/m855)you physically cannot get better 5.56 ballistics while still fitting in a STANAG magazine, 82gr ultra match grade ammo has to be single loaded directly into the chamber. if your only concern is a flat trajectory then 6mm ARC or 6.5 Grendel are the best AR-15 cartridges as they have the same muzzle energy as 6.8 SPC but much better long range trajectories, but they tend to have very short barrel life and aren't suitable for mass infantry use>I was stoked on it when I built the rifle, but have become disillusioned since after some fucking around with ballistics computersand i've had a REC7 since 2008 and it's been my primary hunting rifle since then. i don't care what computers say, i've had far more successful hunts with 6.8 than i have 5.56
>>63120399that's an M468, not a REC7. those had pic rail gas blocks
>>63120402same thing, point still stands
>>63120399> if that's the case, why can't 5.56 defeat level 3?Yeah I conflated level 3 with 3a. My mistake.> the increase in weight and magazine size is insubstantial, especially compared to the sig spear (twice the ammo weight for ten less rounds)You wouldn’t compare it against a blunder like the sig spear. You’d compare it against the m4+5.56, against which it compares unfavorably.> 600 ft/lbs, from a 2" shorter barrelThe most energetic load I’ve seen was the silver state armory 110-115gr loads, and those topped out at ~1800ft*lbs. most loads I see now are between 1500 and 1600ft*lbs>you physically cannot get better 5.56 ballistics while still fitting in a STANAG magazineYes you can. It’s as simple as cutting the case down by ~0.2” and using a heavier bullet with a longer ogive. And this is a moot point, sorta, cause 6.8SPC also doesn’t fit in stanags> it's been my primary hunting rifleNo doubt it’s excellent to hunt with, but a military cartridge rewards a different set of superlatives than one for hunting.
>>631156355.56mm out of short ass barrels has dogshit ballistics and effective range next to 6.8mm. Again, the exact same argument goes in the other direction.And no, recoil is only comparable if you're comparing a modern 5.56mm to some old open bolt SMG in an obsolete cartridge. Not to mention the massive difference in flash and concussion on those SBRs. Weight is only similar when you're talking about those SBRs though. The M7 is not really that different in weight from the M16 or other service rifles. A P90 is 5.5lbs, a Rattler is 4. Again, not the same. But apparently a 2lb difference is irrelevant in one case and a massive burden in the other.
Riddle me this ARfags. If assault rifles are so good, how come we haven't won a real war since we started using them?
>>63121319Because the leadership chose to lose the war. Jimmy Carter chose to leave nam, despite the fact that after the Saigon offensive there was nothing left of the vietcongs ability to wage an offensive war or control large swathes of territory. Jimmy Carter was a literal communist. In iraq, the US could've simply genocided unfavorable villages and people that decided to wage guerrilla warfare. Against guerillas, you either commit an ethnic genocide or you lose the war, and since america is full of faggots and has been since Eisenhower left the presidency, you lost every war.
>>63121319Because your small arms choice matters little when you keep throwing your military into objectiveless quagmires.
>>63115066>and plates can often take many rounds before failingIs this actually true on a practical level in the real world? I don't mean a testing environment. Is someone taking round after round to their plates and continuing to effectively fight?
>>63121319because our politicians are retarded and refuse to let us win a war
>>63099940>Whats with the hate?Typical MIC shit. As the saying does: when the cat has nothing to do it licks its balls. There's not a single real usable reason to make this retarded caliber change. You just have a heavier gun with heavier ammo, i.e. you'll either have less ammo (there wasn't a single time IRL where you'd want less ammo), or you'll need to carry more weight. Simple as.
>>63100317Yes
>>63121319The US hasn't been in a real war since 1945. It has just been exporting it.
the OP is a faggot, small arms are irrelevant (in warfare deaths+casualties are caused by indirect fire), endless AR-derived rifles with desert tan exterior finish are for /hg/ /arg/ trannys, and all cohensig products are unusable sub-worrhless slop
>>63121438>small arms choice matters little when you keep throwing your military into objectiveless quagmires(from overall strategy, tactics p.o.v.) Also this
>>63121374>muh jimmy carter hurrrr durrrr wahhhhhhhhhmbulanceFuck off traitor to the U.S. Constitution.
>>63127249imagine defending carter on /k/ of all places"Carter has publicly expressed support for both a ban on assault weapons and for background checks of gun buyers"
>>63101458>how innovativeGood post anon, excellent greentext pointsyou btfo'd the OP and most 'modern weapon specops professional' /hg/ /arg/tranny larpoperators itt
>>63127260Fuck off ziotraitor JIDF, go fight for greater Israel.looks like the /k/UkeZio trannymods were watching tt even though I did not bump it
>>63127274>if you oppose gun control you're jewish
>support for AWBReagan did that, so has Trump leaned towards it.Nobody cares what mostly ex-presidents>"express support"for, particularly in regard to muh asaWLLLT weapUUHHHnsany restriction on the 2A is express violation of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, proven so by the sunset of '90s Clinton AWB in year 2004>"support Carter"Where have I posted that?all I did was call attention to the butthurt trannytraitor that was triggered by himCarter was the last non-AIPAC pozzed United States president
>>63127290>Carter was the last non-AIPAC pozzed United States presidentThe fact that you said this instead of naming JFK makes you a braindead retard
>>63127287see post directly below yours>"oppose gun control" hurrrrrr durrrrrrLol, (You) are the trannytraitor who introduced 'muh gun control'into the toyltally separate and unrelated topic defending a faggotard who was triggered by CarterPoppy Bush banned imports in 1989 and Reagan Hughes Amendmentwhat did Carter's administratin pass/do during 1977-80
>>63127295>instead of naming JFKLBJ was the anomalyNixon and Carter were reversions, that's why each were removed by deep stateFuck off trannytraitor faggotarded subwit brainlet.
>>63127305>Jimmy carter was based Just fucking kys already
Every off-topic post itt past dozen postswas prompted by >>63127260 <---THIS postthat deflected into "assault weapon ban" off-topicFOR NO REASON AND OUT OF NOWHERE.
>>63127311>was basedWhere did I post that greentext-fabricating trannytard?Carter wasTHE LAST NON-AIPAC CONTROLLED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.it's why he was removed deliberatelykeep dilating malding seething and coping
>reminderthe OP is a faggot, small arms are irrelevant (in warfare deaths+casualties are caused by indirect fire), endless AR-derived rifles with desert tan exterior finish are for /hg/ /arg/ trannys, and all cohensig products are unusable sub-worrhless slop
>>63119820>says this when M4 exists
>>63127336>when M4 existsthe M16A1 mogs the M4https://desuarchive org/k/thread/63017036
>>63127322>THE LAST NON-AIPAC CONTROLLED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.If you believe this you are delusional
>>63125534>US hasn't been in a real war since 1945. It has just been exporting itAnd this.
>>63122970>Typical MIC shitin many ways the OP slop-"weapon" is just a 21st-century rehash of the 1950s M14 gigadebacle.
>>63100299>weight, recoil, and cartridge sizeThissame biggest problems with the past-century M14(and also, with the shorter-but-forerail-bloater M4 'improvement')Typical MIC design-by-committee sloptard par for courseHow many retrograde leaps and bounds can be grifted
>>63099985>offered us three optionsShould've just adopted the Steyr AUG and be done with it
>>63099982>aesthetics>Completely irrelevantit does matter in some degree, regarding a rifle's ergonomics and wield-ability, pointability and handle-ability
>>63127360>you believe this youGHWB, Reagan, Clinton, Cheney-GWB, Obama-Biden *ARE NOT* controlled by AIPAC??picrel guy sitting behind desk was on the Warren Commission
>>63127407jews were a problem before aipac existed
>>63127409and?
>>63106976>Unnecessary gun being shilled as a solution to a non-existent problem. It's also widely perceived as a doctrinal regression to the M14.excellent post
>>63121374>Jimmy Carter lost 'Nam two years before he became president.
>>63114475>6.8 meme needs to dieand 6.5 Grendel is a far better medium range cartridge
>>63127445this but he was enough of a retard without our pointing that out
>>63101249>the NGSW program was primarily supposed to replace the M249 and M240.Then why did the RFP that set the original contact scope specifically say otherwise?It literally spells out exactly what the requirements are, there is no requirement for a belt fed gun, and beyond that the RFP even says the rifle would be awarded higher priority than the LMG. Which if your story about the program ALWAYS being about the LMG, why would the RFP documents say the EXACT opposite?
>>63105070>i-it's muh anteeeeesemuhhhhhtism
>>63108452>6.5 Creedmoor for precision rifles>.338 norma eventually for [medium crew-served] machine gunsWishful thinking but probably overall agree this is the trend in mil adoptionsI don't think .50 BMG is being replaced anytime soon for heavy machine guns though
>>63101163Idk about recoil but it is insanely loud even with the can I was at the vortex training facility for a class and they were testing the spears in one of the other ranges on full auto and you could hear them through the whole building
>>63108452>>63127520The army has largely switched to .300 Norma magnum for precision shooting and .338 Norma magnum for medium MGs to replace both 7.62 MGs and some .50 MGs
A barrel that short in a weapon that long is a travesty. The winning combo should have been GD's Bullpup with Textrons ammo.
>>63127558>largely switched to .300 Norma magnum for precision shootingUnderstood and I know what you're referring to but it also depends what is meant by 'precision shooting' (which can encompass a range of intended roles)Many of the newest bolt-action and semiauto rifle platforms do have interchangeable barrels, bolts, and component parts; these newer designs have modularity beyond what in decades past was a big design and technical distinction between 'long action' and 'medium/short action' civilian, hunting rifle-based designs.6.5 CM is still useful for many range 500-yds or so tactical DMR missions (<--for which a round in the class of .300 NM might largely be overkill or waste of ammo-resources)Obviously for LR extra long out to a mile and more precision and sniper shooting the .300 mag calibers are best suited.There's some overlap depending on the primary intended mission, theater logistics/ammo availability, whether or not the precision shooting will be done at almost-always greater than 500-yd distance, weather/terrain conditions etc.
>>63127820Just looking at the ammo procurement figures, where the army hasn't purchased ANY 6.5CM, and they're buying millions of rounds of .300NM, it's pretty obvious what they've settled on.AFAIK, the only 6.5CM users at the moment are from various special operation groups.Having also scoured the Navy/Marine/Air Force budgets, they haven't been buying 6.5CM either, and have all bought various quantities of .300 Norma magnum in the last 2-3 years.
>>63127833>ammo procurement figures>it's pretty obviousMaybe.>special operations6.5 Creedmoor has over the past decade become a widely used civilian rifle round for precision shooting and hunting; it is here to stay. Many of the different service branch Army/Navy/MC/CG/AF spec units and operations will continue to have a mission need for it, not as wide or large magnitude as the .300 mag rounds but still essential to have on hand fir their discrete purposes and small arms.>scoured the budgets(You) sound like you know what you're talking about but 6.5 Creedmoor----along with many other 'non-standard' chamberings----will continue to be utilized on a per-need basis and in special mission applications by the United States Army, Marine Corps, Air Force, Coast Guard and Navy for decades to come (just as myriad non-standard ammunition calibers were limited procured and used in the past on a specialized basis by all the services during cold war era).Take your arrogance and shove it up (You)r cancer-ridden faggoted zioanus, Traitor filth.
>>63127867Wow you really are seething from being proven wrong.Next time just do the research yourself so you don't get called out publicly when you say something dumb.
>>63127882>proven wrongAbout what?Did (You) miss the ***FIRST LINE*** of my post that you chose to reply to, Traitor filth?>>63127820>Understood and I know what you're referring toA brand new United States Secretary of Defense is incoming.Procurement for year 2025 (in not solely defense budget items) could vastly differ down the road..338 Norma magnum has been chosen as a primary long range recision rifle caliber as a matter of doctrine by U.S. Army, <--that is not in dispute nor did I ever call it into question. Does not mean that 6.5 Creedmoor or other rifles/chamberings for precision shooting have been eliminated or are "banned" to never ever be used ever again by U.S. mil or even allied/NATOforces (in fact the opposite, 6.5 CM and other yet-to-be-seen rounds will be adopted in future), midwit
>>63127918>.338 Norma magnum has been chosen as a primary long range recision rifle caliberNo, .300NM is.338nm is more of a machine gun round at this point in its current use.I'm not even sure if the army has a .338NM chambered precision rifle.
>>63127931>300Typo, I meant .300 Norma magnum in that post.
>>63127931>338NMhttps://sadefensejournal.com/the-rise-of-norma-magnum-whats-behind-the-u-s-militarys-growing-relationship-with-the-long-range-round/https://sadefensejournal.com/the-coming-338-revolution-a-look-at-the-next-generation-lmg-m-machine-guns/
>>63127456>there is no requirement for a belt fed gunif you're going to be replacing a belt fed machine gun, why the hell would any rational, sane military intentionally limit their firepower by going to a magazine fed gun?>>63127520.50 will probably stay around on heavy armored vehicles like LATVs and tanks, but lighter stuff like those dune buggies used by recon units are gonna be swapping to .338 because you can realistically dismount it and use it as a man portable machine gun if necessary, and for the types of missions and environments reconnaissance units are usually in you'd want the longer range than 6.8 or 7.62x51
>>63127336M4 is fucking ugly, M16A1 is pure kino
>>63128043>.50 will probably stay around on heavy armored vehicles like LATVs and tanks, but lighter stuff like those dune buggies used by recon units are gonna be swapping to .338 because you can realistically dismount it and use it as a man portable machine gun if necessary, and for the types of missions and environments reconnaissance units are usually in you'd want the longer range than 6.8 or 7.62x51yep, likely this
>>63119820pic unrelated?
>>63128049here, here is a real /k/ anon
>>63115725>https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/04/not-so-special-a-critical-view-of-the-6-8mm-spc/I don't understand this article. He seems to think the 6.8 SPC was a DMR round, which it really wasn't.
>>63099940>Tell me where on your body the Sig Spear/XM7 touched youBad QC cause SIG doesn't give a shit, fundamental design flaws that are still unfixed, cartridge case often comes apart during firing, ammo almost as heavy as three o hate, uncontrollable during automatic fire even for experienced male shooters from SIG with mil background, now imagine what it'll be like for women.
>>63128276it's incalculable how fucked up OP's pet rifle is.the 2-piece case ammo is something that has never worked in the past, what could go wrong
>>63128267it's cause he compares it based on the original 5th SFG prototypes built off of Mk 12s and thinks that's why it was made, while completely ignoring the fact they only did that to get the cartridge design finalized and then immediately had Barrett design an M4A1 replacement with a 12" barrel (which is infinitely better than 5.56 from a 14.5" barrel in basically every single factor)
>>63128049Yeah, that's the point.
It's because we wanted this instead
>>63128043>if you're going to be replacing a belt fed machine gun, why the hell would any rational, sane military intentionally limit their firepower by going to a magazine fed gun?Are you referring to how the USMC replaced the M249 with the M27?
>>63128646>rational, sane military>USMCthe IAR was more of replacing the M4A1 with something that could handle automatic fire more reliably. they just straight up got rid of the M249 with no intention of replacing it with another machine gun
>>63128276>Look, mom, I'm regurgitating anecdotal evidence that I saw on the internet!
>>63128334It works with the sig, and it works with shell shock NAS3 cases. You have new information now regarding two-piece cases, incorporate it into your appraisal of them or you’re an idiot.
>>63128267It was conceived as being a DMR round, yes. It’s obviously a massive blunder of a DMR cartridge. Are they pretending it was meant to be something else?
>>63128845>they just straight up got rid of the M249 with no intention of replacing it with another machine gunretard
>>63099940because it's symbol of what's wrong with government procurement and what's wrong with a brand that doesn't represent what it used to. it won by virtue of backhanders and palm-greasing cronyism from a man with the kind of name you'd expect. it was the worst of the entrants, nu-sig is slop that is promoted by virtue of claiming govt contracts they paid or bullied or litigated to get so that retards would buy their heavily marked-up products, and the only thing they got right was copying the British MoD's homework on cartridge design from 70 years ago, and that still won't even get out into widespread use.it represents a lot of things at the heart of what is wrong with the firearms industry in current year
>>63129596This is like watching the boomers kvetching about the replacement of the 1911 all over again, but modern day.Time is a flat circle.
>>63129590>>63128845It's not even true.The M249 is still ubiquitous in the USMC inventory, it's just not a standard-issue squad weapon anymore.But if you think you need an M249 in your squad, they're readily available upon request.
>>63129607Exactly.Literally everyone knows the whole "replacing M249s with M27s" thing was just a way for the USMC to skirt around the controversies that come with trying to replace the M4 carbine.
>>63129584per steve holland, 6.8 SPC was designed to replace 5.56 completely at all levels, not just in the Mk 12. it was gonna replace the M4A1, M249s, Mk 18s, SCARs, everything. politics shut that down though, despite all testing proving it was the superior round in every single weapons platform
>>63129626>superior as a DMR roundX Doubt
>>63129634Technically it has more muzzle energy and a higher BC, just cause the bullet is physically longer (higher SD). But the velocity is only moderate, the bullet and cartridge are too heavy, and the bullet’s shape is poor. You could achieve far superior external ballistics to 5.56 by simply cutting the case down and using a longer and finer bullet. All it would cost is a weight penalty of a couple grains, vs a couple grams and increased recoil for the 6.8SPC.
>>63129634see attached slideshow in >>63117981nearly identical velocity, drop, and wind drift, and much higher energy at all ranges, all from a 2" shorter barrel, meaning the marginally increased weight of the magazines is offset completely by the lighter barrel, in addition to being easier to transport and maneuver
>>63129704NTA. It’s not that anyone doubts the trajectory of 6.8, it’s that it is a grossly inefficient way of achieving those gains over 5.56. You have to balance it with the increase in weight, bulk, and recoil. There is hardly any extra bulk (I own 6.8 pmags, they’re hardly any bigger than normal ones). But the weight adds up especially over 210 rounds. Like I said, the exact same trajectory could be achieved and actually exceeded using the same 5.56 case head and .224 caliber bullets. So every big of weight and size that the 6.8 has over the 5.56, it could have done without. I propose an alternative. Picrel, 6mm WOA. Loaded to ~2.4” COAL, it is a 6.8SPC case necked down to 6mm. Basically a 6mm ARC with a smaller case head and (I assume) slightly higher pressure.The bullet is longer, finer, faster, and lighter
>>63129672What they should have done is take their 6.8 case, shorten it slightly, and neck it down to .224. Then they'd have their increased muzzle energy and heavy bullets without the terrible projectile shape.
>>63128845They got rid of the FN Jam-O-Matic because a box fed machine gun has a higher ROF if you count the amount of time spent clearing malfunctions.
>>63128862As opposed to you not having any facts that disprove what I just said, even more so considering that there are photographic evidences of everything I have just said.
>>63129832That’s just .224 Valkyrie, right?
>>63129967Yes
>>6312987490% of SAW malfunctions are due to retards not cleaning them, same as the EBR. if you properly clean the dirt and carbon out and oil it before you go on patrol you'll have zero issues. if you just let it soak up all the dust from riding in a humvee 10 hours a day and never take it apart, it's not gonna fucking run
>>63099940>assembled in the US (from Indian components)
>>63127260And Trump banned bump stocks through an Executive Order so what's your point, MAGAcuck?
>>63130136>retards not cleaning them>retardsOh, so like most infantrymen?
>>63130136>Don't clean it, it jams>Clean it too much, it jamsI'm glad we can all agree that the SAW is an absolute garbage piece of machinery with no advantages whatsoever.
>>63130382nta but you have a soijack saved on your computer so by proxy you are a bigger faggot than OP
>>63129602>boomers kvetching about the replacement of the 1911>muh boomereveryone that gained access to the internet after year 2008 needs to be off-Earthedstarting with (You)as to the post (You) replied to, that /k/ user is 100 percent correctOP rifle = slopis a symbol of what is wrong with deep administrative state procurementcohen"sig" (<--'SIG'... Lol.) is airsoftslop for trannylarpersThankfully this topic has a few dozen more posts remaining then off of the Catalog forever
>>63129832>What they should have doneis just system-wide adopted 7mm-08
the new SAW / USMC 'Automatic Rifle' cartridge should have been 6.5 Grendel
>>63129626>6.8 SPCis and always was mogged by 6.5 Grendel
>>63099940>13.7in barrel>30" OALReal specs? True?what a joke.Was this the gov spec? Are there any sane human beings left in the U.S. military administrative state?
>>63099981>weight of ammo is a big problem hereWhy doesn't anyone itt even mention this?suppose that they stopped caring about weight after adoption of the heavier-than-M16A1, front-rail-imbalanced M4 back in the mid-90s
>>63101097>Retvrn to 7.62 NATOadopt 7mm-08simplifies everyone's job
>>63102499Everything (You) wrote sounds like a gigantic circular total waste of time and money.IOW, 21st century Pentagon procurement
>>63122910>refuse to let us win a warbut GHWB-Reagan won Grenada, and Panama
>>63118041>What would be the correct caliberoff-the-shelf, 6.5 Grendel
>>63118011>sig lmgHow much does that weigh?
>>63130717>Are there any sane human beings left in the U.S. military administrative state?
>>63114948>>63115691>best combination for 0-500 yardsis that also the criteria for OP rifle's cartridge?0-500 is considered the 'combat infantry rifle' range of engagement, for the purpose of technical/engineering development
>>63129577>have new informationchecked, which is?Document it here, in detail
>>63129889agreed anon, why can't sigslurrrrpers ever provide evidence for their nu-uh claims?
>>63130769Hybrid case 6.8x51, which runs fine in guns designed for it. And NAS3 cases, which are everywhere now and also run fine. Why more do you want?
>>63115822Yea whats the point in testing when they could have just asked you?
>>63120152There's still hope for you.I for one was looking where the cum pit is.
>>63130803Yes, they could have just asked me, or anyone with even a remedial knowledge of external ballistics. I hope you know that’s not the point, I’m not sucking my own dick. I’m pointing out that these things are common knowledge for anyone in that world, so it’s inexplicable that they had to “test” different calibers on the same case, as if the result could not have been predicted.
>>63130801>which runs fineEvidence?as prior requested post proof itt>NAS3 cases "run fine">"run"As above. Put up or STFU.Long term storage of these ammunition rounds, in varying climatic conditions?Evidence. Provide it
>>63129613While thats true the IAR does bring more capability to the table than an M4, with the penalty of weight. The IAR is capable of a way higher sustained firerate,
>>63130705That's a weird way to say .260 Remington.
>>63131141kek yes I khow what you mean anonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0cr1PubV6o
>M27 IARI would much, much rather be issued one of those than the piece of slopcrap picrel in OP
>>63099940It doesn't do anything better than the competition. It has a 13" barrel for some retarded reason. Literally unironically another M14. The biggest improvement it offers is the new optic that could have been put on any other rifle. Ask yourself what does it do so much better than an M16 or an M4 that it warrants their replacement? If XM8 wasn't good enough to replace them then why is this thing?
>>630999401. it's uglyb. sig is gayIII. you are gay
>>63131570kek
>>63130715>requires 7.62x39 bolt with a 1500 round extractor life>>631307606.8x51 is supposed to be able to penetrate body armor out to 600 yards, so i'd say it was based around that criteria. it's not meant to be a 1200 yard half MOA round like some people claim it to be
>>63131946Armor penetration was not a criterion for the NGSW and 6.8 CC has no greater armor penetration capability than 7.62 NATO.
>>63131972>6.8 CC has no greater armor penetration capability than 7.62 NATO.6.8x51 does have a "special purpose" round which is supposed to be the first third-generation tungsten penetrator that's supposed to be easier to manufacture than previous tungsten penetrators (M993/M995), which haven't been in production for like a decade.
>>63131946>able to penetrate body armoryes but to meet this criterion (for any round not just 6.8) that's a different bullet?need to compare apples-to-apples, either in a rifle or LMG they won't always---or even frequently---be shooting AP ammo
>>63101393>tfw this weapon is an underhanded program to also filter the weak gamer-bodied bitches from the infantry and ensure only the strongest and most physically fit are able to effectively serve as gruntslet them cook
>>63115066SMGs are stopped by soft armor which cover way more of the body compared to plates, in any military you look at. Soft armor isn't stopping 5.56.Critical thought hurrrrhhrarsadwaaaaa
>>63131981The 6.8 special purpose cartridge has the same construction (and presumably the same performance) as the XM1158 ADVAP armor piercing 7.62 cartridge that's currently in production.>>63132154Also PCCs don't have even remotely close to the same downrange performance as rifles, so I don't get what he's complaining about. I can't comprehend someone actually trying to claim a PCC is just as capable. Maybe if your pistol caliber is hot 7.5 FK or 9x25 Dillon and you're comparing to a 10.5" AR you could get close.
The whole world is and has been swapping to AR-15/AR-18 style weapons chambered in 5.56.Obviously, some Burger Fuckery is needed.We should adopt a bullpup and then chamber it in .280 American, which is just a .280 British with a slightly different neck length.
>>63099940The problem is its fucking massive and heavy and made by sig so its a piece of fucking dogshit piss garbage. The length and bullet are not inherently a problem.
>>63116481>Every time people ask for a bullpup, companies shit the bed when trying to make the triggerKel tec made it, the fucking french made it, there's absolutely no reason for anybody else to do it too.oh and the austrian also made it but only for the military version of the rifle, since they didn't bothered making a propper trigger for the civilian AUG
>>63132455We already have .264 USA, which is just .280 British necked down.
>>63099982Stupid bitch.
this retarded topic is now finishedand we can anticipate the next OP tard to reup the exact same one>hurr durr muh sigslop
>>63132450>The 6.8 special purpose cartridge has the same construction (and presumably the same performance) as the XM1158 ADVAP armor piercing 7.62 cartridge that's currently in production.Wanna source that?
>>63132450>(and presumably the same performance)that doesn’t follow from bullet construction. Frontal area and velocity are also factors.
>>63132679No, we specifically need a .280 American for maximum Burger Fuckery.
>>63133186What's there to source? It's a tungsten core EPR, which is still the most modern and effective bullet design.>>63134204We know that steel core 6.8 performs almost identically to steel core 7.62 of the same construction. Why would you assume that tungsten core 6.8 is magically twice as good as tungsten core 7.62 of the same construction?
>>63134257The 6.8 can only equal the 7.62 in penetration if they both have the same SD and velocity. 6.8 EPR is not the same bullet loaded into 6.8SPC, nor can it be pushed as fast from the SPC’s case. You’re making a noguns mistake of conflating all cartridges with “6.8” in the name.> Why would you assume that tungsten core 6.8 is magically twice as good as tungsten core 7.62 of the same construction?When did I say anything even remotely close to this?
>>63134257Oh god fucking damn it, ignore my last post. I am forgiven for thinking “6.8 special purpose cartridge” is 6.8SPC lol.
>>63117981>thinking bullet energy matters
