From what I can see in the Yookraine-Rasha war most soldiers die from light drones, artillery and hand grenades, with gunfire causing a much smaller percentage of casualties. So why are soldiers not being equipped with full body soft armor? From my understanding, flakjackets like picrel are quite effective at stopping shrapnel while being very light. You could still equip soldiers with ceramic plates that cover their torso for when they do get into CQC
>>64224623Oldass flak-jacket like pic related are obsolete and weight a ton.We already got FAR superior alternatives in the 1990s:the Armor Carriers, AKA "Full body armor vests", that compose a soft armor jacket + additional attachments + hard plates in front and back.The US "Interceptor Body Armor" and the later "Improved Outer Tactical Vests" are prime examples of this, and just about every single nation has had their own armor vest variant for the past ~30 years or more.Yes, Ukraine also started issuing a soft armor vest with plates as standard issue equipment years ago, and many countries did ship them their older stuff to back them up as well, hence why you see Ukrainian bois running in Ospreys, sometimes even PASGT.But as usual, troops either don't want to wear them, simply because of "muh comfort" / "it's not COOL!"... or there's not enough of them to equip everyone. The Call Of Duty culture seriously brainwashes people, while the frontier operators obviously want to minimize their gear and indeed tank a few AK rounds to the chest if SHTF.Yes, the modern (post-2005) "flak jackets" are indeed lightweight and flexible. I used to run around with one 15 years ago in Armeh exercises, and you don't even notice it. Didn't get plates back then, but these days a single NIJ Level III multi-hit rated plate can weight only 1 kilogram a piece, which is nothingburger.
>>64224623They're definitely coming back as a direct result of this war
>>64224714>*Oldass flak-jacket like the OP's pic are obsolete and weight a tonFTFM, just to make it more clear.IBA is already pretty comfy if you ask me, but it is late-90s tech.Pic rel. is the Finnish M/91 Flak vest that already had hard plate pockets. It was mostly replaced by the superior M05 variants, and now there's even more recent versions.
>>64224718To think people in 2021 were seething and calling me a luddite when I said full body soft armor would be useful in a real shooting war
>>64224714>>64224718But I meant "full body" as in also covering the arms and legs. I get that it's probably uncomfortable but less so than having a piece of shrapnel tear apart your legs.
>>64224724At best you'll get the groin flap and shoulder protectors because you can't fight otherwise
>>64224724Again, it all boils down to cost, availability, and comfort.Every single modern, "traditional" war, like Ukraine boogaloo, causes insane material and manpower losses to both sides. This forces countries to start saving on anything they can, while maintaining minimum viable defensive and offensive capabilities.The current estimate on the Eastern front for example is 400-4000 dead men a week.>>64224730That's not quite right either. Sets like pic related are very flexible and ergonomic, but they do cost a shitton of money. Not to mention seeing how scorching hot this year's summer was, the troops really were trying to avoid heat stroke. During winter time? This stuff's just gonna make you feel more comfy.
>>64224737>During winter time? This stuff's just gonna make you feel more comfy.It's not super breathable so I beg to differI have some LARP vests that are just much thinner nylon but still pretty thick by tactical vest standards, and I already felt like I was going to get heatstroke in autumn just walking around at the range
>>64224749>It's not super breathable so I beg to differMy zoomer nigger, I served in the Army. I "larped" in a modern (post-2005) flak vest, with real steel. That thing is super comfy and lightweight, and already during the sub-10 degrees C temps felt like a nice, puffy cold weather vest.>I have some LARP vests that are just much thinner nylon but still pretty thick by tactical vest standardsI wonder what you even mean by this.The average Plate Carrier protrudes inches out of your torso, where as the plain Kevlar / Dyneema vests is mere centimeter or so.
>>64224623>From what I can see in the Yookraine-Rasha war most soldiers die from light drones, artillery and hand grenades, with gunfire causing a much smaller percentage of casualties. So why are soldiers not being equipped with full body soft armor? From my understanding, flakjackets like picrel are quite effective at stopping shrapnel while being very light. You could still equip soldiers with ceramic plates that cover their torso for when they do get into CQCWatchhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPZIKLbZ7Wc
>>64224774By the way Russian ground forces have no fucking hope in a one to one with Azov assaulters, None.As prooved in every contct
>>64224778hell yeahknightmaxxing
>>64224778they have thigh protection as well
>>64224762I have no experience with that one>I wonder what you even mean by this.Older vests from before plate carriers became ubiquitous, like the FLC
>>64224762THis board spent years telling people plates only and fast and light was peak larperator while sane voices muttered as much kevalr cover as practical was necessary behind plates. The Ukraine war showed that the GWOT great thinkers were wrong in every way. Shit like DAPS, thigh cover, lower back covers, high collars and jewel protectors (including ceramic jewel cases) are it in assault or holding assault, Torso cover should be 40 layers as well. Full space marine and wade up to the neck in zigger blood on conntact, speed and aggression and good lines of fire.
>>64224785There was never anything wrong with the OTC/IOTV/MTV concepts except wearing them in hot desert shitholes sucks later Ukranian designs in combat are based on them, the shark etc. Even plates over doubled up BW flak vest inserts work but the all round good torso cover has to be there even for recon.
>>64224730You can just leave uncovered space for the joints so that you can get mostly full RoM for every limb>>64224737Are they THAT strapped for cash? I figure soldiers dying or getting mutilated costs a fuckload more than doubling the amount of kevlar fabric used per soldier. What about militaries with larger budgets like the US? Heat and sweat buildup is a real concern though, I'll give you that.
>>64224793Russian front line troops rarely have anything actually bullet proof on them and have not for years
>>64224762I alwsays found the old 20 layer BW vest comfy as fuck because of the way they move the weight off the hips but the inserts are not as good as the point blank. All the US designs were actually quite good cover wise though from the original interceptor though to the later IOTVs and MTVs. Plate carrier only is a bad joke though.
>>64224798because they're nihilists and DGAF about their own people's lives but that's besides the point. I'm asking about human armies.
>>64224817It is more a by product of graft and corruption in Russia even at the start they wree finding that plates had been replaced with foam inserts and sold on. Unit commandser in the Rusisan military live on graft, bribes from the men to get out of assault, pocketing money for equipment, only paying men when the men need to pay them bribes, sending men who complain about not being paid into assault, once you understand this all Rusisan 'tactics' make more sense.
>>64224737The cost of body armor is a margin error in comparison to the total cost of a modern soldier. Not when it comes to Russia though, obviously.
>>64224785>Older vests from before plate carriers became ubiquitous, like the FLCThose are NOT body armors, silly zoomie.They are literally just load carrying vests, meant to hold your ammo and equipment. Majority of the tactical armor vests got molle loops on their shell, meaning you do not need a separate LCE.>>64224793>Are they THAT strapped for cash?There's not a single country on earth with an economy and resource pool to withstand a 24/7 war for multiple years, straight.We saw this already during WW2, when everyone from States to UK started simplifying their weapons in order to save costs + speed up manufacturing.Ruskeks have been issuing literal Stalin-era trash and now even Chink airsoft toys to their conscripts, as all the good stuff was blown up ages ago.Remember: that gear is wearing down and getting blown to bits as well.You need constant maintenance and a steady supply of replacements, which all stacks on top of the initial price tag.There's also many PHYSICAL, human limitations in play.The grunts wearing that shit need to run around, dismount vehicles, carry stuff, etc.>>64224865Technically correct,but when you need to arm and equip hundreds of THOUSANDS of troops, and lose up to thousands every day, all sort of physical limits start showing up.Yes, in the perfect world, every single troop would wear a proper 360-protective suit, but that's just not viable. And considering that some conscript militaries had grunts running around with nothing but a helmet just a few short years ago (yes, during the 2000s), the addition of a mere P.C. is already a big aid.Final note:you can thank the Americunt "operators" fooling around in the Mid-East desert region for the past 30 years for the popularization of these "hi-speed, low-drag" equipment, like high-cut helmets and Plate Carriers.Hot environment + only facing goat-fuckers with old AKs, with constant air and COMs dominance really twisted people's understanding of the real deal wars.
>>64225032>Those are NOT body armors, silly zoomie.You think I don't know that? My point is that there's a lot less nylon and other shit than there would be with actual armor on and it's still hot as fuck
>>64224788>THis board spent years telling people plates only and fast and light was peak larperator while sane voices muttered as much kevalr cover as practical was necessary behind plates.by 'this board' you mean several people? there have always been pro-flak people on the board but your opinion is trash unless you've larped in full 3a with plates. they suck ass in any temperatures above 50F and, from an american DWOT standpoint, flak protection just isn't as useful as a lightweight and concealable L4 plate carrier.
>>64224623>So why are soldiers not being equipped with full body soft armor? From1. Institutional cognitive inertia mostly. Even back during the 2014-2015 shitfest in Donbas soldiers that were smart enough bought a ton of german kevlar vests, specifically because they knew that shrapnel is usually the biggest issue. 2. On top of that, many soldiers like to whine about weight, volume and heat. Only the heat is a valid issue IMO.
>>64224737>those gaps ngmi either way so might as well issue an IOTV or similar and call it a day.
>>64225069>lightweight and concealable L4 plate carrier.that's oxymoron.The closest to "light and concealable" PC you can get would be the default level 3 plates, not even multi-hit rated necessarily.NIJ level 2 panels would provide good enough flak protection for most people, and those are so thin and lightweight, chances are you've worn leather jackets heavier than the modern flak vests.
>>64225194>"the default level 3 plates"what does that even mean?
>>64225220Regular NIJ Level 3 (not 3A) plates, that are neither standalone (less common these days) nor rated for multiple hits (also becoming less common now; most plates can take 5 or more direct hits from the projectiles they're meant to stop).More basic hard plates = thinner, less weight.That being said, I do recall seeing "3+" rated light weight ones already a decade ago. Also some buoyant types, that were more bulky but apparent very light.The steel-only plates are a whole different animal,but many L4 plates are actually steel or titanium backed L3 plates.
When are we going to get the future we deserve, bros?
>>64225230This is very weirdly worded. You can separate L3 plates into steel / titanium, all polyethylene, and ceramics.Poly plates are almost always buoyant. They are light but thick and weak to steel core ammo.Ceramics are the best overall and provide comprehensive protection. However, they often need 2" spacing between hits.Steel is the heaviest but permits the tightest shot spacing. Weak to high velocity rounds like M193 and varmint .223 in the 30-55gr range. Also spall. Also cheap as hell. L3 steel weighs more than L4 ceramic.All Level III plates are rated for 6x 7.62x51mm M80 at 2,750ft/s +-30 "III+" is unofficial and can mean M855, M193, M855A1, etc. Anything. IV is just 1x .30-06 steel core M2AP at 2,880ft/s +-30.>L4 plates are steel or titanium backed L3.Uh, no. Level IV plates are almost always ceramic. They use a much thicker ceramic strike face but a thinner fiberglass, aramid, or PE backer. L4s are not required to pass the L3 test. They weigh more, stop much harder threats, but are often cheaper and compromise multi hit. Examples. Hesco 4403 is rated for 3x M80. $420 a set. Much cheaper than many Level IIIs. The super cheap, NIJ suspended, rather bad Level IV RMA 1155 has lost to two .308 twice before in independent tests.
>>64224788>>>64224762 #>THis board spent years telling people plates only and fast and light was peak larperatorYou realize that it's a nuanced situation that you can't just scream midwit takes at right? You have to consider threat profiles when choosing how to protect yourself. You can't just look at something going on half a world away and say "yep, that's 100% applicable here with zero changes."
>>64224762>real steelYou mean ceramic, right?
>>64224720Nobody serious disagrees, its just that modern full body armor also needs plates on top of the soft armor.
>>64225230>nor rated for multiple hitsmost plates can take multiple hits its just that in the past no one wanted to say they could for fear of lawsuits. now that larperating is popular and there are lots of 'low to mid range' armor companies everyone can say their shit is multi-hit
>>64224737That armor is to disarm bombs, not to get shot and dodge shrapnel.
>>64224788Western troops in the GWOT already wore all that. Even Delta Force were wearing big crotch protectors.
>>64226633>no one wanted to say they could.NIJ has been around since 1972. All ratings except IV have been six hit, 2" spacing (or 3" if .357 mag for II, 3" .44 magnum for IIIA but that rating came later) for more than 50 years now.IVs have also been multi-hit for some time. The trick is shot spacing because they're ceramic. There were 15-hit "LIBA" Level IVs more than twenty years ago using a ceramic pellet layup.
>>64224788>The Ukraine warstop basing everything you know on ONE specific war. ukraine is trench warfare because its a primarily rural country with lots of fields and both sides cant afford to lose aircraft.
>>64224798>>64224817Russian troops do have body armor, especially Spetznaz, mercenaries and VDV and Sea Infantry. The North Koreans in Kursk also had them as standard issue. Unless you're Spetznaz or North Korean you basically have to buy it yourself though.In fact, the actually well equipped Russian units wear a lot of heavy gear, deltoids, crotch protectors etc like the Ukrainians do.
>>64226671Hegelian dialectics.1. Thesis. GWOT means you gotta be fast and run just slick PC + 3 mags.2. Antithesis. Ukraine shows you need auxillary and extremity armor plus 15 mags a man.3. Synthesis. Mission dictates equipment.
>>64226673The issue is that their mainline infantry lack competent 21st century armor. ESAPIs from 2006 mog Russian granit plates. A lot of Russians are using sheet metal you can bend with bare hands.
>>64226677>GWOT means you gotta be fast and run just slick PC + 3 magsnot it doesn't you fucking retard, plenty of soldiers in the ME were wearing full turtle-armor because of IEDs.
>>64226677>Mission dictates equipment.This is the highest IQ galaxy brain post answer to basically every petty gay argumentative OP on /k/ and it'll never be accepted by them. Fucking impossible concept.
>>64226692Are the IEDs in the room with us right now, or is everyone mimicing mid-2010s SOCUM with their slick PCs and enough ammo for five minutes?
>>64226684Yeah, the regular line infantry has been degraded horribly, but the whole reason you see all these depleted VDV, Sea Infantry and Spetznaz units being sent all over the place is because they're still above most Russian troops in gear and even training. Their job is practically saving and maintaining these regular chumps alive.
>>64226709True. However, even the top shelf armor in Russia is poor by western standards. They have plates rated to stop advanced threats like 7N37, but the combination of plate, soft armor, and climatic amortization panel (KAP - 1" thick trauma pad) produces a 2" / 9lb solution. Then add all that auxillary soft armor. Lot of weight. Much of it imported from China.The West could do the same for 2/3rds the weight, easy, but it'll be costly.
>>64226702you are 5 years too late to be angry about highspeed gearqueerism. no one even cares about gear anymore, the fad rn is concealed carrying.
>>64226729no the fad in /gq/ is looking like drag queen darth vader with cloaked platecarriers. Get with the times gramps!
>>64226737can you even post one example?
>>64226759How about four?>>64222428>>64221475>>64221456>>64223654
This one is called a "Fort" suit, and is lined with enough aramid to supposedly protect the wearer from shrapnel. I don't know to what degree this is fielded among combatants in Ukraine. In any case they look heavy and hot, newer variants sacrifice protection for venting and airflow. According to depotmilitary dawt cawm they cost like 10 G's new.
>>64226838forgot to include, the guy on the right and crouching guy on the left and right are wearing them at least
>>64226845Looks like a reduced evolution of the FORT "gladiator" suit. The aramid is probably equivalent to IIIA, plates are likely either FORT ACP-Gs (B-32 API / M995), ACP-Ms (7N37 / 7N39) or Shelkovo GOST-BR5s.
>>64226643this is 20 pounds btw
>>64224778>>64224781I just realized this whole convo about how much armor is appropriate has been literally ongoing for hundreds if not thousands of years.>a gambeson and chainmail is more than enough for most threats>no good sire, you need to have a breastplate on whenever you leave your tent during a campaign>a good helmet with shoulder coverings is all you need anyway>hahh, fi'thy peasants, unless it's full plate armor that completely covers every inch of your body including your horse, it's completely worthless>yeah fuckwit, have fun outmaneuvring horse archersEtc. I just think it's interesting that most normal citizens can get enough armor on them that they would have to call in the national guard to deal with them. Which is based and i can respect someone who unironically trains with that, but in actuality all you really ''need'' is a pistol with a full mag.But yea i just hope both sides have fun
>>64226916Check out Jinwudun's soft armor.
>>64225096>Only the heat is a valid issue IMO.I agree with this sentiment. Couldn't we do a plate carrier / armor setup that would have cooling or some sort of AC in it? I have no idea if this is viable whatsoever so this might be retarded for various reasons but i'm curious.I know they have pipe modules for cops that attach to the AC vents of a cars that can pump in air under their vests. Some folks say it will ''give you instant pneumonia'' but other cops swear by it, saying it has saved them during the summer heat from heatstroke. Idk what to believe desu but there's only anecdata out there about it
>>64226928There's a bunch of options.1. Many trauma pads like Russian KAPs double as a ventilation / spacing solution.2. Ice vests under the armor. These melt eventually and are a temp solution.3. Fan vests. These are noisy and need battery power.4. Recirculating liquid cooling. Electricity needed and expensive.
>>64226635That isn't to disarm bombs, look at all the gaps there. Meant for SWAT duty
>>64224788>plates only and fast and lightThis was due in part to community overlap with /r/tacticalgear, which for some time was overrun by a clique of bullshit artists with very high credit limits and poor spending habits. Everything had to mimic tier 1 SOF and everything had to be top shelf. $2,500 plates. $7,000 NV. $3,500 thermal on the gun. A COTI for the NV. Velocity systems. LBT. Crye. And then they collectively dipped when people realized they were paying a fortune for no reward. Both sides in Ukraine are rolling Chinese shit here and there and getting by in actual combat.These dudes were buying gray market LTC 28595s for home defense.
>>64224623>soldiers die from light drones, artillery and hand grenadesYeah demoralize the Ruskis by forcing them to wear soft armour instead of plate carrying MOLLEs. Or are you recommending that Ukraine downgrade their armour to allow for more casualties to make it less like a complete failure?
>>64224623>>64224718Can one even buy soft flak vests these days?
>>64227294if you mean the old style without plates, surplus. if you mean the new style WITH plates, yeah.
>>64227091>That isn't to disarm bombs, look at all the gaps there. Meant for riot squad dutyFTFY
>>64224798>>64224793They've been issuing sheet metal plates you can bend with your bare hands. The only country on earth that actually has a wartime stockpile of armor / plates is the US. The total number of ESAPI / XSAPI plates manufactured by Ceradyne alone, going off of purchase contracts, exceeds four million as of the mid-2010s.
>>64227306I see full body armor on auction on certain sites.
>>64227382check eBay, I've found PASGT vests on there before.
>>64227382You can buy "full" armor new from the Chinese on the cheap. This getup is an extreme example from a B-rate manufacturer, (Fearless X - Jinwudun) but has Level IV plates and like sixteen IIIA soft armor panels included for $1,060.
>>64226928I'm considering buying those cooling vests that furries wear under their suits. I donxt know why soldiers dont wear this as standard issue but it sounds greathttps://www.ezcooldown.com/
>>64227990you mean IcePlates?
>>64227994NTA, but an iceplate is a water bladder that replaces the ballistic plate in the rear of your carrier. This is a vest you wear under your carrier.
>>64227360Are those the 1980s Afghanistan era steel plates?
>>64228029Negative. These are the "red metal" plates that have been made and issued from 2022 to present. The steel is far, far too soft and ductile for use as armor. It's placebo armor so the troops have "something" to put in their carriers that they think is armor. If you're sending men to die with empty carriers it's basically telling them "yo we're broke and we ain't paying your family the ten boxes of cereal when you die!"
>>64226694sorry but reincarnation is real bro
>>64226605Yeah would you rather>Send 50 troops inna desert>In 30 pounds of armor>And 20% of them suffer heat casualties before even hitting contactOr would you rather>Send 50 troops inna desert>With twenty pounds of extra water an ammo>And none of them even break a sweatWhich way, white man?
>>64226928Pneumonia is a type of lung infection lmaoIt's like people saying you'll catch a cold if you're outside in the rain or snow; bitch we get colds from staying inside with other people
>>64227250did you read the entire post and everything below? higher coverage of soft armor would massively reduce casualties. retard.
>>64224778They're just missing vambraces and thigh guards
>>64227360>The only country on earth that actually has a wartime stockpile of armor / plates is the US. Bristol-Myers Squibb ceramics are the gold standard anon and they are not American
>>64228046this
>>64228934That would actually be Ceradyne, which is American, before they got bought out. Their boron enrichment process is virtually lost technology at this point.Most common armor manufacturers use CoorsTek (American), Bitossi (Italian), Saint Gobain (American but parent company is French), or other strike face manufacturers. Only a few are fully integrated and do final assembly of strike face + backer (often Honeywell Spectra or Dyneema products) plus strike face manufacturing.
>>64224623Army has the idea of integrating liner into the shirt for their short lived ballistic combat shirt.
We need like, scale armor. Something as tough as a dragon. It can all be held together by glue.
>>64229720Dragonskin... it's been a long time. Pic rel is the shorthand full history of it. Basically it works fine as long as it's not conditioned and never exposed to substances that can dissolve the glue, like gasoline. An old-timer SME, Dr. Gary K. Roberts, tested a dragonskin panel many years ago and it stopped dozens of rifle rounds.The disadvantages are threefold:1. Cost. Even modern dragonskin is ludicrously expensive.2. Weight. A full vest of SOV-3000 Level IV is about 40-45lb alone.3. Durability, as mentioned above gasoline causes problems. 60% failure rate per army testing.
>>64226838These suits have protection on extremities level V non penetration 270 m/s vs 1 gram FSP. Basically they dont protect from "shrapnel">>64224714>>64224623Frag protection of the Interceptor vest from the CO/PD 00-02G documentV50 vs 4 grain RCC is 2400 fps. For context average fragments from VOG-17 are 6 grains at 3950 fps (and this is not a bug, but a feeature. VOG-17 controlled fragmentation parameters were designed to defeat PASGT armor that has similar protection)This "fragmentation protection armor" would not save you from fragments. In context of OP question. Drops from drones and FPV kamikaze, they explode at close range where fast frags defeat Kevlar armor.
>>64224720You just got unlucky. I'm sure plenty of people agreed with you, they just couldn't be bothered to argue with the smooth-brains who had the weight of current practice and two decades of GWOT on their side.
>>64227990>https://www.ezcooldown.com/I was going to suggest phase change material cooling garments but you beat me to it. The next step is to make a small freezer that plugs into an automobile for recharging the packs.
>>64224720>full body soft armor would be useful in a real shooting warnot >>64230078
>>64230113This looks like the winner so far. Anyone got bad experiences?
>>64224623Soft armour isn't going to be the future, its fine against smaller scaled traditional fragmentation from mortars and shells. It however struggles against preformed shrapnel, which is getting increasingly common in modern munitions.The future is going to probably be based around better shaped UHMWPE and ceramic armour with a bit of soft armour to supplement it. Also, unfortunately at the moment some of the russian designs such as the Strelok and MRS 2.0 are ahead in terms of design when compared to to western equilevants.
>>64225032where the hell do they keep their shit? They don't have enough to even sustain 1 firefight
>>64230416I agree. The Russian equipment is ahead of the curve design wise but they're behind in materials. They're ten years behind Honeywell in terms of UHMWPE and probably 10-15 behind where Tencate is in terms of ceramics.I do think in circumstances where quality medical care is gone you'll want more armor, not less, until mobility (which is its own armor) is impeded.
>>64226621>You mean ceramic, right?No, I don't."Real steel" = real WEAPONS and live ammo.>>64230493Ranger setups are / were much lighter on gear and ammo than the average grunts. Didn't even bother with body armor before the mid-2010s.
>>64229684>short livedIt didn't work out?
>>64230122He doesn't mean specific interceptor vests dummy, just kevlar armor with plates in general in a generic way
>>64230416>>64230590Designs like that only exist as projects that last forever so the budget can get looted. It's why its real impressive and expensive yet never gets deployed anywhere.
>>64226624Why on top? Saw finns wear plates out of their coveralls.I'd assume plates closer to the body would allow easier movement/weight-distrib. Look im wrong, but why?t. nogunz here for the airforce/ballistics...
>>64231158They are about the same in frag protection capabilities. Kevlar cant stop fast frags.
>>64231363Soft armor is worn behind the plates for three reasons.1. It does the same job as the plate's composite or fiberglass backer, or tries to. Catching fragmented projectiles that make it past the plate's ceramic strike face. Many plates like US SAPI / ESAPI / XSAPI require soft armor behind the plates.2. Trauma reduction. Soft armor reduces backface deformation even for standalone plates.3. Soft armor is extremely ineffective by itself against rifle rounds. M193 can clear more than 150 layers of kevlar (a classic IIIA vest is 35) and still kill just fine. Use the plate to shatter projectiles first.
>>64231703>3. Soft armor is extremely ineffective by itself against rifle rounds. M193 can clear more than 150 layers of kevlar (a classic IIIA vest is 35) and still kill just fine. Use the plate to shatter projectiles first.I found one experiment where 50 mm or 96 layers of laminated kevlar (impractically thick for infantry) will stop 7.62x51 9.7g at 857m/s lead core round. The author of experiment also noted a 25mm thick MAS (multilayered armor system) which composed of ceramic front layer, kevlar mid layer and aluminum backer combo would also stop the same round.>>64231363Kevlar cant really stop high velocity rifle rounds so you gotta put something rifle rated infront of it.https://youtu.be/uDvdcZO1nkM?t=445According to this 45 layers of kevlar can stop (but fail lvl3A standards anyway) m193 out of 16 inch barrel.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM0SpYfOCJ8This guy shot 5.56 and 7.62 rifle rounds at the muzzle (with no barrel length specified so the test is kinda bad) into level 3A panels and penetrated depending on round 4 or 6 panels.https://youtu.be/zErupXARACI?t=339This guy shot 5.56 from a 16inch barrel and penetrated 4 layers of lvl3a panels with the round getting stopped in the 1th lvl2A soft armor. 7.62x39 FMJ stopped on the 2nd lvl2a soft armor.https://youtu.be/NBjWj2ik51I?t=212Oxide tested lvl3a soft armor panel from safe vest at 550 meters (600 yards) with 3 shots of 5.56 m855 from a 18inch rifle. All 3 rounds penetrated
>>64224720I still disagree. Id rather have a place carrier with side plates and a dick flap. Soft armor is hot and mostly useless. The only thing its may help against is indirect fire but they have vehicles and trenches to deal with that. If you’re on an assault you want mobility and an apc is probably getting you close. I know this is 4chan and my dad works for Nintendo or whatever but im speaking from experience. If we fought in high humidity id lose the side plates too. Everything is a tradeoff but the level of protect most soft armor offers doesnt cut it and there are some insanely light plates these days. Even less exotic more common plates are getting lighter and lighter.
>>64225096Those were donated and everyone ditched them for better shit the second they could. No individual was “buying” them. I still have mine, i couldn't find anyone who even wanted it. Lot of us also inserted Italian and polish plates in those.
>>64231363>Saw finns wear plates out of their coveralls.>I'd assume plates closer to the body would allow easier movement/weight-distrib. Look im wrong, but why?That's how it has always been, and always will be.Soft armor closest to the body, to work as a padding between your skin and the plate. It cushions the hits and improves the protective traits of the plates too.Pic related; some WIP guy literally wearing a PC on top of soft armor vest.>>64232279Plates are hotter and heavier by default.People seriously underestimate the ergonomix improvements of modern armor designs.>The only thing its may help against is indirect fireNo no, that IS what it it is GREAT against.And no, "vehicles" and "trenches" are not gonna save you, that's what everyone aims at nowadays by default.Everyone always bitches and whines about armor and even helmets, but every single guy also starts wearing them when their convo gets hit by a IED but don't lose their balls thanks to dick flap.
>>64232293> Plates are hotter and heavier by defaultYou are just flat out wrong. I dont think im going to change your mind and I know from experience you are not going to change mine. Have nice day
>>64232279>insanely light plates these daysAnd you'll either compromise protection or pay out the nose for them.1. All-PE plates like the Hesco 3800 / 3801 are extremely light (3801 is under 2lb) but get their ass kicked by M855. Therefore equivalents like 7N10 / 7N10M or higher rounds like M855A1 / 7.62x39 7N23 / 5.45 7N22 / 7.62x54R LPS will have them on the ropes very badly even at range.2. Many of the ultralight Level IVs like the Hesco 4800, Dayton RF3, all perform poorly because they are built with virtually no headroom. Buffman tested a Hesco 4800 and it bombed 1/2 .30-06 M2AP because he subjected it to a simulated drop test.3. Many of the even lighter plates from literal whos like American Blast have undersized strike faces and/or flat out don't perform.>less exotic more common plates are getting lighter and lighterI mean ESAPI is down to 5lb flat as of the VTP iteration and XSAPI 5.5lb, but they're having trouble getting those to actually meet spec. Commercial plates are actually trending up in weight ever since 0101.06 was published in 2008 and plates had to start passing drop tests. If you backtrack to the 0101.04 days, Level IVs like the Diamondback Tactical B-4 and Protech 9812-R1 are equally light or lighter versus current Level IVs. The 9812-R1, drop tests aside, mogs the rest of the civilian-accessible Level IV lineup. Armor is also being subjected to more scrutiny lately and guys like Hesco aren't able to get away with no-headroom designs. 4403, 4601, 4801 are all heavier than their predecessors.Highcom's lineup is virtually the same as what they were selling 20 years ago.RMA's lineup lost all their SiC / B4C options.LTC is abiding by an annoying "10 year rule" where they don't sell anything to civilians that isn't either a monkey model or heavily out of date.Tencate just flat out doesn't like selling to civilians.Ceradyne is defunct.
>>64232293When i go back to the front in october im not bringing my german flak rig that is bulky hot and heavier than my pc and that i can only stuff 2 ak mags in. I dont think you would find any fighters who would agree with you.
>>64232315>im not bringing my german flak rig that is bulky hot and heavier than my pcI don't know what the fuck you've jammed into your vest, because I've owned one of those German flaks for over 18 years, and it's super lightweight and flexible.Obviously you're not meant to use the front pockets for any serious LC. >I dont think you would find any fighters who would agree with you.You are talking to one.Not Ukrainian, but we already got issued proper plate-carrying flakvests 15 years ago. Shit was comfy, and during the autumn time, the extra warmth was nice.
>>64232300No he's actually right on the money. You're not getting plates lighter than soft armor. There are rumors of a SOCOM-issue covert 1lb polyethylene plate rated to 7.62x39mm mild steel core but if you can't buy it it's basically a fairy tale. Plates are also inflexible unless you want to talk about Hexar / FRAS / Dragonskin / Ceraflex business but those are dramatically thicker and heavier than soft armor. It's just the nature of the game.
>>64226684>ESAPIs from 2006 mog Russian granit platesThis is false by the way.
>>642323445.45lb + soft armor gets you 6.2lb protection against .30-06 M2AP. Granits only protect you against 7.62x54R B-32 API, are made of greatly inferior Alumina ceramic, and need both soft armor and a climatic amortization panel (trauma pad) to meet specs.It is true that Russian armor posts significantly lower BFD than ESAPIs (~17mm limit vs 44mm), but that's with the assistance of a 1" trauma pad. Give the ESAPI a KAP behind it and see what happens.You aren't beating B4C with Alumina against steel-core threats.
>>64232348>Granits only protect you against 7.62x54R B-32 APIFalse. GarandThumb couldn't penetrate it with .30-06 M2AP.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDemr-l0gYo
>>64232354>out of a garand with no chronographTry 2,880ft/s as per the actual ESAPI spec. Thanks.
>>64232368>CopeNo problem, buddy.Reminder that ESAPI needs a backer to do the same.
>>64232377>ESAPI needs a backer to do the sameAnd is still lighter, lol. Granits are Aluminum Oxide 1990s throwback technology.
>the state of modern russian armor
>>64232394They should start making ESAPIs with that 1990s throwback technology, since it could stop M2 AP without backer and on compromised strike face.
>>64232410They do, it's called going over to Highcom and buying a 4SAS4 for $99.99. Pic related plate from Linry is less than thirty dollars and technologically equivalent to a granit. Aluminum oxide tile array + PE backer.Nowadays, ESAPIs weigh 5lb flat and stop 3x .30-06 M2AP @ 2,880ft/s or 3x 5.56x45mm M995 @ 3,400ft/s per current VTP specs. Know granits that can do that?Granits rated only for 7.62x54R B-32 API, steel core, literally weigh more than XSAPIs that can stop 3x 7.62x51mm M993, tungsten carbide, at 3,050ft/s.
>>64232428>Mega cope peppered with lies>5 lb ESAPIs bro>Granit stopping .30-06 M2 AP on a damaged strike face isn't real, trust me!LOL! Are you paid for this gig or its just your autism outlet?
>>64232441I'm waiting on your Granit test at actual Level IV / ESAPI velocity.
>>64232449Keep waiting schizo, it'll arrive right after you get your hands on a 5 lb medium ESAPI ahahahahaha.
>>64232457>https://www.catalystsurplus.com/product-page/gen-iii-s-esapi?You have my permission to use google.
>>64232473>VTPLOL why do you even try.>The results of testing, however, were less than encouraging: during initial testing, various versions of three out of four of the armor plates — the ESBI, ESAPI, XSAPI plates, specifically — failed to meet ballistic protection requirements.
>>64232493That article was from 2021 when VTP was just underway and they were having trouble meeting the weight / protection requirements.
>>64232500Exactly. So they met protection requirements by not having the weights listed on that table.
>>64232503they completed first article testing in Q4 2021 without changing the specs. Your article is from 1/25/21. It's been more than four years dimitri. That is one more year than your three day special operation.
>>64232509>without changing the specsThat's false again. Why do you keep lying? The plate you linked is swimmer cut, they literally reduced coverage because classic SAPI cut couldn't be made at that weight.
>>64232518Yes, they changed to a swimmer cut and raised BFD limit to 58mm from 44mm when they went from REV. J to VTP. I was talking about the Q1 2021 VTPs versus the fielded Q4 VTPs.What you're missing is that there is no equivalent Russian armor. ESAPIs and XSAPIs have been procured by the hundreds of thousands for more than a decade.
>>64232533What you're missing is the medication for your mental illness.>Granit is only for b-32>Proven wrong by garand fucking thumb>W-w-well ESAPI is lighter! 5 lbs!>Proven wrong by the fucking army, who had to increase bfd to TWO FUCKING INCHES and make the plate in Swimmer, Not SAPI-cut, to get anywhere close to it>About to be proven wrong about there being no equivalent armor in Russia...... By the fact that 6b43 was adopted in 2010, and 6b45 was adopted in 2014, both shipped with granit plates.
>>64232556The state of Russian desperation is hilarious. Pray tell how thick and heavy a Granit is with the required plate, soft armor, and then the 1" thick KAP behind all of that?All that just to stop B-32 API three times. I mean, good lord, LTC makes plates like the 28570 that are 4.58lb and stop the same threat standalone.
>tfw your shit's airsoft but they promised you a 6B45Sheer delusion
>>64232571>If you expose my lies, you must be russian>This will somehow make my lies trueYou're pathetic. You waste your life by lying about ballistic plates online, how did that happen to you?
>>64232571>All that just to stop B-32 API three timesThis is false by the way.
>>64232582You haven't even posted a test of the Granit against M2AP at its actual reference velocity yet. I'm disappointed Ivan. Both in you and the aluminum oxide plates you're peddling that get mogged by $250 RMAs.
>>64232585Oh wait I'm sorry I meant zero times, because the plates in the field are cardboard. >>64232407
>>64232597>the plates in the field are cardboardThis is also false, by the way.
>>64232602You're right. Some of them are actually pot metal so thin and soft you can bend it with your hands!https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1581708111500279808?
>that is also false by the way>your eyes are false by the way>do not see the video>my entire knowledge of armor is based on russian propaganda from eleven years ago when we were credible bad guy in hit western video gaem battlefield 3
>>64232615This, too, is false. I suppose you've earned yourself a meme status by now. Let's invent a name for you...I got it. Sapitard.
>>64231475Wouldn't it be possible to at least stop some, with enough layers?
>>64232621>>64232633fucking kek the Russian is schizo
There were videos showing Russia would load 2-3 guys up with as much body armor as possible, give them duffle bags of ammo and send them running as far as they could. When they die they become loot boxes for the real assault. Nicknamed the camel tactic.
>>64232643OK sapitard.
>>64232645that too is false, Sapitard.
>>64232639It would be possible to stop 'some', but at this point the protection is inefficient as you carry so much shit and still get holes in your body. You want to prioritize hard plate coverage and only use soft armor to cover sections that cannot be covered by plates.
>>64232657I agree with this take. There is an obvious issue of both cost and weight. Realistically it will be very difficult to provide lightweight full body plate coverage without using B4C or a lighter future ceramic.Shoulders + torso (front / back / sides) + abdominal + femorals is gonna run a pretty penny.
>>64232645It was Wagner who did this stuff in Bakhmut I think>>64232657Ok, but you're talking about close range shrapnel or fast shrapnel right? Because flak will protect from shrapnel just not all
>>64232691Slow/Fast shrapnel separation is inappropriate. The real tangible separation is in the ordnance origin of it.Soft armor that has enough layers to rate for .44 Magnum is just enough to stop naturally forming fragments from hand grenades, secondary fragments like stones kicked up by the detonation, and fragments of lighter mortar shells at stand-off distances.This effectively limits its application to low-intensity conflicts where you might encounter enemy directly and he might throw grenades at you, and whose friends might roll up with 82mm mortar to harass you.High intensity warfare features shit like drones carrying an RPG-7 warhead ramming you directly, 150~mm artillery pieces, rocket barrages, preformed shrapnel, thermobaric ammunition, tanks putting HE shells into bunkers.It is completely normal to encounter fragments the size of a man's palm, travelling at ballistic speeds, and soft armor just can't stop it. A ceramic strike face, or panels made of ballistic steel that has high HRC, is much more likely to resist such a threat, at the cost of increased weight, reduced coverage and reduced comfort compared to soft vests
>>64232291>Those were donated and everyone ditched them for better shit the second they could. No individual was “buying” them.Bruh, my friend sold a couple hundred of them to soldiers.
>>64233643Most militaries, like the Ukrainian one, don't teach you any sort of Bodyarmor 101, so the many underequipped participants of the ATO bought total trash as long as it had 'body armor' on the label. Especially if it also said 'European body armor'.
Fuck it time to dump soft armor pics from GQ
Another of skinnyanon
another of not so skinny anon
>>64234114(Me) Just now noticing that the belarussian one on the right seems to have a full kevlar gorget and bevor. I think that's the first time I've seen something like that.
>>64225194First Spear LTO w/ 28595s, <10lb total weight, ~0.5".>>64226838By now there's probably more intact Fort systems suits in the hands of airsofters than Russian forces. >>64227205Me fr>>64229684Sounds like an evolution of the shelved IDAS system, meant for humvee gunners and sentries. >>64232314Wouldn't put too much credit into the VTP weight reduction, it was mostly due to increasing alowablw BFD, 44-> ~62mm.
>>64234842Okay, somebody supplied you bad info on the LTC 28595s. 1. They are NOT Level IV plates. They're rated to 1x 7.62x54R B-32 API and at least two 7.62x39 BZ API. .30-06 M2AP creams them, see Buffman test.2. The 28595 is also not 0.5" thick. Buffman measured his at 0.9" thick. The much weaker, M855A1 / BZ API LTC 28791 is however 0.6" thick. They're still great plates, but overt by socom's definition and not Level IV. Buff's 28595 performed admirably against multiple M855A1. Alas, the new hotness is the LTC 28570.>VTPIt's primarily three things.1. Better-quality, albeit thinner PE backers.2. Increased BFD limit.3. Swimmer cut.Jury is out on how well the higher BFD limit still controls behind armor blunt trauma. I think it's a mistake and they should have kept it at 44mm. The swimmer cut I can get for shoulder mobility.
