https://news.usni.org/2026/04/28/navy-awards-282-9m-ffx-frigate-contract-to-hiis-ingalls-shipbuilding
>lead yard workAt this point it's just a subsidy to HII’s Ingalls Shipbuilding, they can still fuck it all up from here.
Anyone taking bets on when it will get Constellation'ed?
>>65116034It was fucked all up the moment they chose the only ship available that's both worse and more expensive than the Freedom class.
does it even have VLS?should've chosen MEKO A-200.
>>65116070Flight 1 is being built without VLS so it should be fine at least, Coast Guard ships are already built to US survivability requirements unlike the European ships.
>>65116589coast guard cutters and bluenavy frigates have different survivability requirements you mong, and that's where the navy's tard hammer's gonna bash hard.
>>65116589Is it "no VLS" or "there is a multifuntion hole where VLS might still go"?
Phelan JUST got fired and he was the one pushing for this. His current replacement seemed to hate him. I have zero faith this will still be a thing in six months.Build more Independence-class.
>>65116589>built without VLSHuh?>build warship>it can't shootFucking GWOTbrained garbage.
>>65116589Yeah clearly being survivable is important when you don't have missiles.
>>65116589The Legend class is built to a lower survivability standard than the LCSes.>>65116609It's no VLS, and whatever weapons it has are going to be shipping containers dropped on the fantail where the boat ramp is on the USCG version.>>65116695The politics don't really change regardless of who's in charge. Congress thinks LCS was a failure so they wouldn't want to fund either LCS-based proposal, the Navy clearly found something wrong with the MEKO 200 since they dropped the TKMS proposal without even giving them a design contract, and obviously FREMM already failed. That leaves a choice between the F100 class and the Legend class, and while the F100 is more capable, it's also much more costly (the shitposters paid over $2B worth of real money for theirs) and requires literally double the crew.
>build warship>don't given it any weaponsCan someone please explain why the fuck this retarded trend has dominated naval architecture for the past 50 years? Literally what is the point?
>>65116790These are only warships in the loosest sense, any actual combat would be handled by our Arleigh Burkes and Ticonderogas. If we were to get into a war with China in the next decade, we have all of the warships we need already. So the thing the Navy is looking for is a backline ship that would allow us to continue to fulfill our global obligations while sending all of proper warships to the west Pacific.As for why thirdies are doing something similar, it's just because they can't afford a real navy.
>>65116790>weapons and their systems cost money>the navy wants a cheap shit to take work load off of the burkes>navy builds ship that has no weapons to save moneyHere be the LCSes>crisis/event/minor fracas occurs>LCS can't go because you need weapons to defend yourself and others>burkes get overworked>navy decides to try again, but will put weapons on this timeHere be the Constellations>weapons and their systems cost money>navy realizes they can't afford ships with weapons>try again, but without weapons to save moneyHere be the FF(X)The navy really wants an Perry class replacement to do patrols, ASW, and escort duties in order to reduce the pressure on the destroyer fleet, which is being worked into the ground. But to do those things, a ship needs to be able to protect itself and others, which requires some real weaponry. The problem is, they can't afford to build the ships they want. The Perry's original estimate in 1978 was for $194 million per ship, which is $1.02 billion in today's money. That was doable with Cold War budgets and economy, but it's possible with the current state of American financial health. So they see saw between building little shit heaps that aren't able to do anything when called upon (57mm pop guns and a handful of hellfires isn't enough to escort tankers through the Bab el Mandeb Straights). So then they go to something that is able to do those things, but then runs into the reality of half-a-destroyer costing about half-a-destroyer.They *need* to do something, but they can't do what they need to, so they do what they can, which isn't what they need. The only real solution is political: cutting back naval operations to a level that the fleet can actually support. Political leadership absolutely refuses to do that because grand strategy alternates between primacy and selective engagement depending on the party in power. Both of those require naval activity beyond the level the Navy can actually support.
>>65116901>but it's *not possible with the current state of American financial healthtypo
>>65115978>frigate based on the NSC Legend-class hull>one FF(X) in FY 2027, another in FY 2029 and two in FY 2031>four cargo cult Choe Hyons with a fraction of the capabilities in the time it takes to build 10 real onesYeah so the first one will be done just in time to confront the Norks doing 'freedom of navigation patrols' off the coast of Mississippi.
>>65116901>>crisis/event/minor fracas occurs>>LCS can't go because you need weapons to defend yourself and others>>burkes get overworked>>navy decides to try again, but will put weapons on this time>Here be the ConstellationsWhen did this happen?
>It adds a 12-cell VLS launcher for ESSM air-defense missiles, just behind the main gun, which is upgraded from 57 mm to a 76 mm Super Rapid. Two quad launchers for Harpoon anti-ship missiles and a triple launcher for torpedoes are added to the sternThat is extremely underwhelming compared to the implessive designs it will most likely face in naval combat. If this is what we are going with we should have just kept all the Hamiltons we gave Vietnam, they are already capable of using Harpoons.
>>65116790Some navy tasks dont need weapons, currently we are wasting real surface combatants on those tasksIn 2026 the minimum to be a surface combatant is extremely expensive because you need to be able to intercept anti-ship ballistic missilestherefore an armed frigate program will just evolve into a destroyer. So it is better to cancel it and build more destroyersLets consider an ASW escort role. In the cold war you could put a sonar, a helicopter, some asrocks, and a dozen interceptors on it and be fine. But now a submarine can fire a dozen sea skimmers and ballistic missiles at you. So you need a destroyer to carry an expensive radar and high altitude interceptors not a frigate.
>>65116981what navy tasks dont need weapons?
>>65115978inb4 we just buy mogamis
>>65116981The problem i see is that Harpoon isn't a particularly long ranged missile these days, for instance both our primary possible Asian foes (China, Norks) have anti ship missiles that vastly out ranges it. In a era of orbital tracking and recon drones both would be perfectly happy to fire missiles mad dog at a general area and it has no means of retaliation not to mention dealing with the inevitable future submarine launched drone swarm attacks.
>>65116776Maybe, like all Navy procurement, it's one thing called another. We don't have any minesweepers right now. That would fit the bill.
>>65116993None. "Some ships don't need guns" is cope from GWOTbrained MICniggers who think spending money on a glorified pleasure yacht will somehow keep China from shooting 12 billion cruise missiles at the USS Ford. Warships are for war and they need to be able to shoot shit. Right now they need to be able to shoot drones and missiles. Any dollar spent on a ship that can't do this is a dollar wasted.>inb4 but what about birates off bomaliaWe had a tool for this it was called second rate ships. Instead of mothballing the obsolete fleet you refit and recrew them to do anti piracy and thirdie babysitting.
>>65117034>We had a tool for this it was called second rate ships. Instead of mothballing the obsolete fleet you refit and recrew them to do anti piracy and thirdie babysitting. Even our 'obsolete' ships were good enough for Naval Warfare, but instead of using those Vietnam, Sri Lanka, the Philippines and Nigeria got really nice Coast Guards.
>>65116931>When did this happen?Timeframe goes from mid 90's when they did when they did SC-21 study, aka surface combatant for 21st century, to last November. That is when Constellation class frigate turned into Cancellation class frigate.SC-21 is most things related were a disaster and quite retarded.
>>65117067>>65116959>muh HamiltonsDo you actually think that practically unarmed coast guard cutters would be militarily useful, or are you confusing the Hamilton class cutters for the OHP class frigates, which were also sold off to random countries.If it's the former, then you're a complete retard. The Hamiltons with box launchers would be no different than the Legend class cutters with an NSM box launcher, which is what the FF(X) is. The only difference is that the Hamiltons would be worn out dogs that need to be replaced anyways. The Independence class LCSes have boc lauchers on them and that doesn't help them do anything relevant either.
>>65117110More real estate than what we already did with less.
>>65116901>That was doable with Cold War budgets and economyThe problem is the financialization of the american economy and the debasement of the dollar. USN budgets have not kept up with inflation for generations. In a society built on sound money and production, with zero financialization, a Perry replacement would cost less than an original Perry because of increased robotization and general technological improvements. America lost the war against greed a long long time ago.
>>65117151>le moneyOr maybe naval technology has changed drastically and constantly since the pre-dreadnaught era?
>>65117110They are designed to be fitted with SubRocs and Harpoons, for police duties they are just fine and would have the same effective weapons load as these frigates. BTW, these frigates are just Legend class CG cutters retrofitted with as much or less firepower than Hamiltons could carry, they are the dime store replacement for the class.
>>65117173They can carry 16 NSMs, which are much more capable than Harpoons. They're also not rotting away.
>>65115978I wonder if they'll add The Cube modules
>>65117239It would make more sense to make it compatible with LCS modules, but if they did it would make more sense to make more LCSes.
>>65117209There is nothing that carries a Harpoon that can't carry a NSM.
>>65117173It isn't. The Navy doesn't need sonar picketts that can't defend themselves. They need small surface combatants that can do jobs in dangerous areas that don't require the full capability and endurance of a destroyer. Escort, ASW, and patrol. It doesn't need to stand and fight against a Type 055, but it also can't be utterly helpless anytime a plane or missile threatens it.>>65117151>sound moneyI'm going to assume you're a gold/silverbug since those are the only people talk about "sound money" in the same way that Russians are the only ones that talk about needing a "warm water port."Whatever precious metal standard you want would have strangled the economy. That massive American national wealth, which built and funded that Cold War fleet, would have never appeared without the abandonment of precious metal backed currency. Basically everything in Bryan's Cross of Gold speech still applies and apply just as much to silver as gold. Even a hard run fiat currency will choke out an economy, as seen by the Switzerland who have had to resort to publically threatening to print unlimited fracs if the value of their currency didn't stop rising.
>>65117034>>65116993The frigates do have weapons just not high end weapons. Even fighting the houthis requires burkes now so building something less than a burke is stupid.
>>65117352Sure, as long as your only reason for wanting it is to blindly lob them over the horizon. In that case there's no reason to bother with NSM over Harpoon.
>>65116070I bet my left nut it gets scrapped within 16 months.
>>65117158>Or maybe naval technology has changed drastically and constantly since the pre-dreadnaught era?Naval technology has changed, yes, but so has production technology and prototyping technology. Financialization strangles industry and shifts income from productive enterprise to speculation and above all, rentiers. One of the primary tools for financialization is monetary debasement. >>65117372>I'm going to assume you're a gold/silverbugWrong. You dont need silver or gold to maintain a stable currency. The keyword here is stable currency as in no monetary expansion and a banking and stock market which is quite different from the present ones. Much of banking and trading is a basically crime with a veener of legality. The entire american financial system is set up to siphon off income from physical enterprise into rentier coffins. Long term this leads to the strangulation of industry and a collapse of physical production. Academia is for hire, and there are many professors of economy that are willing to testify that America is the best and the current system is the absolute best but they are paid to say that. People that are obsessed with money and status are those that are most inclined to study economy and those people are also quite willing to participate in the giant fraud that encompasses all of the western world. Thats why I would never hire anyone with an MBA and neither would you. I mock economists by telling them that they really do not understand anything since the only thing they have studied is jewish secular theology and what has that to do with actual real world economics? Do you know that the american economy isnt based on capital but on debt and debt is the inversion of capital? Economists doesnt understand that. All the capital was drained from America ages ago.
>>65117514For what reason and to be replaced by what?
>>65117538For NAVSEA to finally give up after wasting enough time and money. Nothing will replace it. Just buy more Burkes.
Friendly reminder to everyone that the only reason we can't just print money to pay for everything is because (((banks))) are already printing all of the dollars that can be printed without collapsing the currency.
>>65117511>read comprehensionThe point is anything that can carry a Harpoon can carry a NSM so a Hamilton can be outfitted with them just fine. The entire Burke class is already halfway through swapping them out as are several other ship classes. This entire conversation was about 'second line ships' being used for policing, something the Hamiltons are being used for at this very moment just not in US hands. Since the 'new' frigate is a Coast Guard cutter given a few missiles i thought it relevant to point out we already had those and we gave them away.
>>65117570That doesn't address the fact that the Hamilton not being able to offer datalinked guidance updates and target discrimination represents a serious reduction in capability compared to a more modern ship like the Legend.
>>65117536Make a fucking point in your first response. Naval ships are in a constant sate of bleeding edge retrofit that has bankrupted nations. We can make hulls just fine, but getting all the future-proof doodas strapped in and assembled is always completely new every single time.I don't know what the fuck having a fiat currency has to do with assembling all brand new systems from the highest tech producers on the globe. Makes me think you have no idea what's even on a ship, and just say>>durrrr hull costs $$$
>>65115978They are not frigates, they are corvettes or patrol vessels. Not nearly militarised enough.
>>65116589>Coast Guard ships are already built to US survivability requirements unlike the European ships.They aren't. It has the survivability rating of level 1, which is less then an LCS. The survivability is far below European frigate.
>>65117699level 1 with shock hardening exemption*
>>65117565no. the navy needs frigates. sending DDGs out for every little piddly mission is a waste of personnel, resources, and capability.the whole point of a navy is to have multiple types of ships sail together to complete different tasks and you change that up depending on the mission. you don't need everything that floats to be capable of all missions at all times.>>65117696>Displacement 4,600 long tons (4,700 t)uh. yeah they are.the idea is to get something into service NOW that they know how to produce without shipyard fuckups and adjust the design incrementally as different flights are produced. the earlier ones can then passed on to the coast guard who got their legend-class order cut and are short of hulls. it's the least stupid idea the navy has come up with to build frigates and we are at the point where that is good enough as long as it gets hulls in the water.
>>65117570The Hamiltons can't defend themselves, retard. They're clapped out hulls that got pushed to those small countries because those countries don't need SAMs to escort cargo ships through hazardous waters. The last time the navy looked at reactivating ships to cover this gap, it was in 2017 and they wanted the OHPs tied up in Philadelphia reactivated. Nobody gives a shit about a coast guard cutter with a box launcher, that can't do what they need. Then Hamiltons never did what the Navy did with the OHPs because they were totally defenceless from any air threat. >>65117536>no expansion in the money supply>blah blah conspiracy retardationThat would have choked out the economy the same way, moron. It also makes you totally unable to deal with economic recessions and depressions.>inb4 muh austerityThat's what Europe tried, and look at how much it hobbled them. Before 2008, the US and the EU were about the same size. Then the housing crisis blew things up. The US kept spending and investment high while the EU decided to spend and entire decade not growing. The EU got left behind while the US kept things moving economically. Treating a currency like its backed by gold is just as retarded as actually having your currency backed by gold.
>>65117841Blaming exclusively austerity is a cope, Europe raped their productive/business class. If a European wants to start a business or get rich, he goes to America. Fewer regulations, fewer taxes. Alabama has more innovation and upcoming companies than most of Europe combined. Europe doesn't have any new companies, industries, or innovation, and haven't for at least two decades. It's not going to get better for them just because they've dumped austerity.
>>65117860Anon, I don't think even Europeans care about Europe.
>>65116901Or perhaps they need to learn from the asians and do whatever it takes to produce ships for 1/4 of the pricePossibly need to condense all shipbuilding to 1-2 yards, located near major cities, build company towns for the employees, keep ghetto dwellers out, etcIf you don't target the problem from the root(things are too expensive) then you never get good resultsJust spending more money is never a solution
>>65117796>can then passed on to the coast guard who got their legend-class order cut and are short of hulls.The Coast Guard abandoned their Legend class contracts in order to throw more money at the Heritage class, which is slightly smaller but in practical terms more useful and should end up much cheaper although a lot of the funding is currently going to corporate welfare for a hurricane-stricken shipyard. They don't want more Legends, they can't afford to maintain the ones they have.
>>65117841>Nobody gives a shit about a coast guard cutter with a box launcher, that can't do what they need. That is literally what this new ship is, it's a recycled incomplete Legend class with both the NSMs and AD in box launchers bolted to the hull.
>>65117885It won't have air defenses. Sure, in theory, you could drop a Mk.70 with a pair of SM-6s on the back, but that would replace its other weapons and then it wouldn't need any defenses by virtue of not being a threat to anything.
>>65117883that math would likely change if they get them for free from the navy and variants end up being series produced by multiple shipyards like they are planning.
>>65117909The back is where the NSMs go, so far it looks like the AD is a RIM-116 box and Phalanx.
>inb4 we have 300+ replies wherein anons spazz because a Frigate isnt a destroyer but smaller
>>65115978oof
>>65115978>$300m design contract>For a ship that's already been in US service for two decades
no reason a "frigate" shouldn't be like 20,000tns, with same armaments.90% of the time it "sails with fleet" at 20knts, and it ain't like USN cares about fuel costs.Just space everything out instead of trying to stuff 20lbs of shit in a 5lb sack.Same reason APCs got YUGE. No benefit in being small with guided missiles.Put a bunch of open spaces big enough to fit 40ft Conex boxes between everything.That way it might be able to take a hit without the explosion spreading to next flammable shit.No reason not to have VLS under a moveable helo-deck.
>>65115978>We Finally Getting Frigateslol no you're not
>>65117975If costs are a concern, helos are the first thing that needs the axe
>>65117954But it is an obsolete distinction and we need to abandon the current rating system. Idiotic displacement fags would tell you this hopped up Coast Guard boat and the Choe Hyon are both frigates despite this having less firepower than a cold war patrol boat and the Choe Hyon mogging a Zumwalt. Now that we are all agreed that this system is obsolete we can adopt the proper chad missile tube rating system like ships of the line back in the day. This is clearly a patrol cutter while the Choe Hyon is a heavy destroyer with later follow on versions (projected to have 24-36 more VLS tubes) being pocket missile cruisers. Since the subject of ship classification is now a settled matter there is no reason to clutter up the thread with arguments about it.
>>65117990>Just get rid of all of the functionality, that will make it cheaper!
>>65117990its just deck space, helos can come or go.
>>65117991>Choe Hyon mogging a ZumwaltIt absolutely does not but nice try, norktard.
>>65117034>constant recitation of perjorative as a mantrayou appear to be both upset and mentally ill.
>>65117997>just delegate all actual capabilities to the 75 million dollar helicopter And then you get another failed naval design that costs too fucking much to operate
>>65117951And point defense doesn't count as air defense.>>65117885>that is literally what this new ship isAnd it's just as stupid. It's literally less capable than the LCS, which aren't capable enough to do anything militarily useful. The FF(X), like the Hamiltons, aren't capable of protecting themselves, let alone another ship.My honest opinion is they should have continued with the Constellation class. The second ship will cost the same as an 1978 era OHP frigate ($1.05 billion vs $1.02 billion) while being bigger and more capable. Yes, the program is horribly mismanged by both its government procurement office and prime contractor. But that's a problem that should have been dealt with by an F-35 style program reform, not cancellation and a lurch back towards a ship that is even slower and less armed than an LCS. Despite being only two ships, the Constellations are going to be worked hard over their careers. Calling it now, in ten years time, people are going to look back and wish they kept the program running.
>>65117997I'd bet 90% of what a frigate does is be a helo carrier anyways.stuff like its SAMs are just to protect it...as a helo carrier.
>>65118006>Just don't have any capabilities, then it will be cheap!You can repeat it all you want, but it's still a retarded idea.>>65118008Exactly.
>>65118007>The second ship will cost the same as an 1978 era OHP frigate ($1.05 billion vs $1.02 billion)That was the original plan. They canceled it because it was becoming clear that even the follow-on ships would be approaching $2B, at which point it just doesn't make sense to build a small ship at all.
>>6511800080 vs 88 launch tubes with 24-36 more on the next version, more tubes is best ship because bigger number better, checkmate bub. It is roughly comparable in firepower (very roughly, different mission profiles and doctrines) although not long range targeting which is the Norks main problem.Joking aside the classification system does need revamping, putting this (especially the first block) in the same class as the Choe Hyon is moronic given the vast fire power disparity between them. For lack of a better system using VLS tubes like guns on a ship of the line makes more sense than displacement.>>65118007>it's just as stupidI agree absolutely, i was just pointing out that we already had something that could do anything these do. Upgrading the Hamiltons that we gave away might not be a bad idea if we could get some sort of anti piracy/small war joint agreement with the nations that have them. Between Vietnam, Sri Lanka, the Philippines and Nigeria at least one of them would join a brush war/anti piracy effort and at least two already have issues with China. I have no argument with anything you said about Constellation.
>>65118043>80 vs 88 launch tubesZumwalt now has 92, with the smallest being 28" square and 283" deep. What's the approximate size of the smallest tubes on the Choe Hyon?
>>65118049Probably 22-24 inches for the S-300 knock offs. The rest are (as far as we know) land attack cruise and ballistic missiles besides the trapezoid which are (probably) anti ship versions of their land attack cruise missiles.Kim wants the next block to remove the deck gun and relegate that duty to escorts so the front deck can fit more missiles. Best guess is 24-36 more tubes depending on what goes in them. >92, with the smallest being 28" square and 283" deepI grudgingly accept the mogging however claim a moral victory on behalf of the DPRK: The next block will exceed the Zumwalt and the Zumwalt is THREE TIMES THE SIZE OF IT* The fact that they can be be compared at all is a wonder of engineering and proof that when they make their promised missile cruiser it will exceed the Ticonderoga***SHE WAS ONLY 5000 TONS YOU SICK FUCK!**Both in number of missile tubes and the size of the explosion that will happen if takes a single hit.
>>65118049"Tube size" is a terrible metric for determining relative firepower of a ship.
>>65118086>Probably 22-24 inches for the S-300 knock offs.Aren't some of those cells for Tor and Buk knockoffs? I'm pretty sure there's some 10-12" cells in there.>The next block will exceed the Zumwalt and the Zumwalt is THREE TIMES THE SIZE OF ITOkay, but the Zumwalt could in theory launch four Trident II missiles if someone was retarded enough to think it was a good idea. That's up to 15 MT yield with over 4,000 miles range. What's Choe Hyon Flt II's maximum yield?>>65118094It is, but on the other hand, you have thirdies with toy missiles like Umkhonto and Hisar claiming ridiculous VLS counts. Meanwhile, the Zumwalt's cells are large enough to quad pack PAC-3 MSE or five-pack ESSM if anyone cared enough to do the development and integration.
>>65118007>while being bigger and more capablethat's the problem. they don't need them to be bigger and more capable. the navy doesn't need baby burkes when they already have full-sized burkes. the navy desperately needs OHP-style cheap basic frigates with room to grow and no-frills armaments to escort auxiliaries and do other menial shit shooing small threats away.if them and their charges sail into a high treat environment without help, someone dun fucked up. it'd be like sprague sailing taffy 3 out to find and attack center force. it isn't going to intentionally happen.
>>65118132It still should be useful in a battlegroup beyond "be the first ship an AShM hits". A 32 cell VLS wouldnt ruin the frigate concept, even OHP's had the one armed bandit.
>>65116589>Coast Guard ships are already built to US survivability requirements unlike the European ships.Instantly made a fool of yourse;f there European shipbuilding is way more advanced than the US at this point, You've never been near a shipyard in your life.
>>65118132And this is why we should be buying the Austal Frigate (the early one with 16 VLS). It'd be cheaper than the FF(X) with fewer crew required, would still have the Indy's top speed just in case, would have >95% parts commonality with a ship the Navy already operates over a dozen of, would be plenty capable of defending itself, and would be compatible with the LCS mission modules in case we suddenly find ourselves needing 50+ minesweepers.
>>65118101>Aren't some of those cells for Tor and Buk knockoffs? I'm pretty sure there's some 10-12" cells in there.Possibly however if they are Nork knock offs they will be larger, we don't know how big the smaller hatches are since i lost my invitation to the tour group. 24 inches seems like a decent estimate for the smaller tubes, that could be a S-300, a Buk or 4 tors. They probably have (several) somethings besides the Pantsu's missiles and the S-300 copy. They don't trust outside systems and freely admit their S-300 needs work. >the Zumwalt could in theory launch four Trident II missiles if someone was retarded enough to think it was a good idea.No one is that retarded besides the DPRK, silly question.>What's Choe Hyon Flt II's maximum yield?Actually a damn good question. Probably close to a megaton if they went 'oops all nukes' but the yields would not be the most dangerous thing, the number of potential targets would be. four tridents hitting four cities would kill far less people over the long run than 48 50-250k ones launched at 48 separate population centers, especially since the Norks nukes will be dirty as all hell radiation wise. >thirdies with toy missilesMy objection to your misuse of that term aside (go non aligned league go!) i think we can agree that Nork missiles are not on that level and are a real threat. Norks would just put those types in a launch box (which the very ship in question does, in 4 modular box launchers) and not count them as VLS even if for some reason you put them in a VLS tube on a surface patrol vessel.
>>65118149okay so don't sail the early ones with the battlegroup. later flights with the planned incremental improvements can do that job.>>65118167the problem with bulked up LCS is that the baseline model would be the absolute limit of the hull design. you couldn't add more shit on later flights by stretching the hull even more. what you get is all you get going forward.this is going to be a BIG class so having something with some wiggle-room for later development is a requirement.
>>65118183>Norks would just put those types in a launch box (which the very ship in question does, in 4 modular box launchers)The launch boxes near the 14.5mm rotary guns. They follow a pattern and we have seen early versions of those in more than one place. The boxes have modular tubes so you can fit Bulsae-4, ER MANPADS or even their Lancet rip off into. The one Myanmar uses is linked to a semi automatic 14.5mm rotary turret with MANPADs on a mast that tracks with the gun. This appears to be a 2nd or third generation of that system linking a bunch of small stuff together, the 14.5mm rotary guns have their own radar (and probably back up power supply) and are linked to the 8-8 single semi automated 14.5 guns. Presumably they are all tied together with the ships warning systems, the integration on Myanmar's flagship must have been quite informative to them.
>>65118183>4 torsChina and Russia haven't invented quad packing, North Korea definitely hasn't.>>65118183>four tridents hitting four citiesFour tridents would hit 32 cities, each carries up to eight 475 kt warheads.>which the very ship in question does, in 4 modular box launchersThat's the Pantsir clones on the gun turrets, right? Or does it have RIM-116/HHQ-10 style launchers somewhere?
>>65118101Outdated picture* but you can see the guys to the rear and compare the launch tube hatch size to them. They aren't small.*It is missing many of the 14.5mm CIWS guns in this image, at least 4-5 per side.
>>65118190>the problem with bulked up LCS is that the baseline model would be the absolute limit of the hull design. you couldn't add more shit on later flights by stretching the hull even more. what you get is all you get going forward.>this is going to be a BIG class so having something with some wiggle-room for later development is a requirement.The 16 VLS Austal Frigate proposal was exactly the same size as the Independence. Later on you could do a deck extension like the 32 VLS proposal if you thought it was necessary, but I would sooner just design something new. The LCSes are compromised from the start by the speed requirement, the reason I'm suggesting it is as a stopgap for small ships we've needed for years and still don't have. Which is exactly the same reason Phelan decided to go with the Legend class as a stopgap, but the problem there is that the Legend class is unsuitable for the Navy's requirements for all of the same reasons (apart from the speed requirement) that it was already judged unsuitable for the Navy's requirements twenty years ago.
>>65117860>Alabama has more innovation and upcoming companies than most of Europe combined. Europe doesn't have any new companies, industries, or innovation, and haven't for at least two decades. It's not going to get better for them just because they've dumped austerity.lmao kill yourself cletus
>>65118222>North Korea definitely hasn'tThere is a very long history of people who say the DPRK can't do something and almost all of them have been proven wrong. Would you really bet something meaningful (like the entire population of a city) that you were the one who proved them wrong? They punch above their weight and do on a regular basis.>Four tridents would hit 32 cities, each carries up to eight 475 kt warheads.MRVs, right. Good point. By the time the USA has four of these ships the DPRK will have ten. It is exponential insanity if you care about the the existence of the human race or just the DPRK which Kim does. I'd be a terrible person to control the decision to fire back at a incoming nuclear strike that would kill my half of humanity knowing the counter attack would kill the other half: I wouldn't do it. At least that way someone lives.>does it have RIM-116/HHQ-10 style launchers somewhere?To the upper left of the rotary guns on the sides, there are two launch boxes per side. My guess is some sort of boosted Stralla-10 system that can take other small missiles as well. Kim ordered that they have maximum drone and USV defense so they have 4-5 single14.5mms, the rotary 14.5mms and two of those launchers per side. A drone like a Geran or a USV would face a combination of the Battlestar Galactica and Robotech missile hell at short range. I doubt it would have much effect against a real cruise missile but it might if they get lucky which is more than i can say for Russia, at least the Norks try and do their best to improve themselves.
>>65117796>the whole point of a navy is to have multiple types of ships>looks at the abysmal state of USN surface procurement for the past 30 years
>>65118101>It isOkay>but on the other handNo>you have thirdiesYou are acting like the thirdie here. Don't descend to their level.
>>65118271>lmao kill yourself cletusIf the UK joined the USA as the 51st state it would be the poorest US state as would 2/3rds of the EU, kill yourself Nigel, Varg, Giuseppe or Hans as the case may be.
>>65118303Okay turdie, the Valor class frigates have 32 VLS cells. Are you happy now?
>>65118307>>65118303Friend, please be polite. So far there are no trolls in this thread, it is a good thread. I need no one to defend me or my opinions as i an quite capable of doing so my self although i appreciate it.May i suggest some reading?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-world_modelhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Worldhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_MovementThe phrase 'third world' is inaccurate and does not properly represent a mind set beneficial to our current age, it never did even during the Cold War.
>>65118313Why would you possibly think that was my concern? I literally told you what my issue was. Here, I will repost it for you:>"Tube size" is a terrible metric for determining relative firepower of a ship.That's it. That's the extent of the point.
>>65118329Yes, I'm aware that you think a rowboat with 128 of these >>64985132 should be considered to be armed the same as a Ticonderoga class cruiser, but you're wrong, stupid, and brown.
>>65118231>it was already judged unsuitable for the Navy's requirements twenty years ago.for LCS which turned out to be a flawed concept. for a multipurpose OHP-like bathtub, a reworked legend-class is probably the best we are going to get. many argued to shitcan LCS and navalize the NSC back in 2012 because they could be equipped for most frigate-type missions without the magical multi-mission module that never really came to pass. now here we are, 14 years later, doing exactly that. it's time to build SOMETHING to fill the frigate roll and the independence-class had it's chance. replacing the OHP was supposed to be something the LCS did, if you recall, and it failed. giving austal another kick at the cat by de-LCSing them as an interim design seems silly when there is a known hull that Huntington can produce without fucking it up too badly right there that could be the solution with a few small tweaks that can be phased in over time. they can just finish the Freidman and the navy can have it then strap whatever shit they want on it as they figure out how to frigate again.
>>65118344I would take 20 freedom class frigates like the saudis ordered over 20 nothing.
>>65118333...but I don't think that in the slightest?
>replacing the OHP was supposed to be something the LCS didI hate how retarded /k/ has become
>>65116901>StraightsOpinions discarded.
>>65117378This.Hull steel is low cost. Design is also expensive.Build improved OHPs if those work, otherwise crank out Burkes with less extensive weaponry. It would stll be more survivable than a too-small hull.
>>65117878>do whatever it takes to produce ships for 1/4 of the pricelol
>>65118344No, the Legend is just shit. It's like an LCS that trades everything for endurance that the Navy doesn't need, since they have a global logistical network keeping their ships constantly supplied. It makes even more compromises than the LCSes did for their speed. It's expensive, manpower intensive, and can't do anything but maritime enforcement. Meanwhile, the LCSes can now do everything that was advertized, even if it took us an extra decade to get there because of the dual procurement shitshow. Hell, we're at the point where you could trivially replace the Hellfires with Altius 600 launch tubes and have the drone launcher platform that originally being shilled. Why suddenly replace them with a platform that can't do any of it?>replacing the OHP was supposed to be something the LCS didIt explicitly was not, which is why the hull symbol is LCS and not FFG. OHP was retired without a replacement and LCS took over some of its lower end roles.
>>65118347The Saudis don't need range.
>>65118374>LCSes can now do everything that was advertizedha
>>65118379The USN doesn't need much range either, the problem is that if you were to rip out all of the equipment in the MMSC and install stuff that the USN uses, you'd have to re-engineer the ship all over again and it wouldn't be any faster or easier than just starting with the Freedom design and making a frigate out of it. And the problem with that is that the Freedom design is shit, even if it's "mostly" fixed now. Plus you'd be relying on LM and Marinette to build the shits, when GD and Austal are the only shipbuilders in the US that can actually ship (no pun intended) good designs on time.>>65118381Feel free to list some.
Last time i checked the Arleigh Burke class was doing a damn fine job, shouldn't littoral combat be the jobs of the the Coast Guard and US Marine Corps seeing as that is literally their fucking jobs?
>>65118404You really need to pay more attention to your trip when you're shitposting. It makes you look like a retard instead of a troll. Anyway, war is not part of the Coast Guard's job, and the Marine Corps's job is nominally amphibious assaults and boarding actions, not naval battles regardless of how close to shore they are.
>>65115978Why are they not buying LCSs instead? Like you already spent all the money on fixing it? What's missing on the LCS that's present on the FF(X)???
>>65118407It's Coast Guard tier low intensity war and Marine operations. If you need some place policed you call the CG. If they need back up or a small nation overthrown you call the Marines. Police actions are best done by the Coast Guard and USMC unless in a Pacific total war situation. Somaliland does not need more than local US support, it needs a few squads of Marines to show the flag and to have some support so they can police their own waters. The USA is forgetting the basic ideals of gunboat diplomacy which is to make sure your local allies benefit from your presence.
>>65118374>trades everything for enduranceNice to see you're finally willing to concede the obvious.
>>65118441>Why are they not buying LCSs instead?Congress is retarded, news at 11>What's missing on the LCS that's present on the FF(X)???Greater endurance/range. Everything else is a wash or worse.
>>65118407>You really need to pay more attention to your trip when you're shitposting.You are right, i cross post sometimes and forget to turn it on or off. I don't really care, i don't give a shit either way. I have opinions and i will be heard, if you don't agree with them then convince me otherwise.
>>65118451Sure, but none of that is littoral combat.
>>65118374>It makes even more compromises than the LCSes did for their speed.utter nonsense. just the basic hull design and powerplant weirdness puts lie to that. the legends can just use smaller fuel tanks and reallocate the space for something else and it's mostly problem-solved. meanwhile, the independence-class is based on a high-speed ferry.a 44 knot squirt-gun powered twin gas-turbine trimaran made some major compromises in it's design, okay?frigates aren't destroyers. stop trying to make them be destroyers. that's what fucked the constellation-class. the navy has the burkes for that job. they need FRIGATES desperately. slow boring cheap simple frigates to ride with the auxiliaries and merchant shipping and be unflattering ugly escorts. modern OHPs, and legends fit the bill better than anything else available.
>>65118483The Independence class is cheaper than the Legend class. The Independence class requires fewer crew than the Legend class. The Independence class is more survivable than the Legend class. If you're going to try to make the claim that the Legend class is a better fit for the Navy than a ship they already operate, you're going to have to come up with some things it actually does better.
>>65118489>come up with some things it actually does better.cruise.you also have to figure that a kitted out indy is going to have a far larger bill and crew requirement than the current version. plus, if the ship the navy already operates is actually better then why are they asking for a proper frigate?
>>65118472>>65118407Also: As far as i know we have a large number of Arleigh Burkes and allies who use frigates like the mentioned Hamiltons and other US ships going back to WW2 in the case of Argentina. Why not use them as a auxiliary? They could be upgraded to something resembling a modern combat ship and if they die it's their fault not ours. They would be at least equal to China's garbage and competent under our direction to do police actions.Do you have any idea how many former US ships are in the hands of nations we could give orders to if we wished? The Hamilton's are the least of that* if we pushed it hard enough, South America doesn't have a functional navy without us.*The fact that the largest user of Hamiltons is Vietnam will never stop being a source of amusement to me since most of the ones they have fought in the Vietnam war.https://vocaroo.com/12B666RYD6QLGin and quinine if you are asking what i'm drinking.
>>65118495>cruiseDoesn't matter, try again.>you also have to figure that a kitted out indy is going to have a far larger bill and crew requirement than the current version. Austal's early frigate proposal is the exact same dimensions as the Independence and just shifts some stuff around. It would not require a larger crew.>plus, if the ship the navy already operates is actually better then why are they asking for a proper frigate?They are not asking for a proper frigate, and the Legend class is not a proper frigate. They are asking for literally anything, since they desperately need at least 20 more small ships and also badly want to retire the worthless Freedom class but can't until they have the 50 small ships they need.The Independence class is obviously the solution, but brainwashed congressboomers hate it because it looks funny.
>>65118504>60 year old boats operated by seamonkeys armed with over the horizon missiles whose only guidance mode is pitbullThe best thing they could to help us is to stay the fuck away.
>>65118513>over the horizon missiles whose only guidance mode is pitbullYou say that like the SEA propensity to rabidly attack anyone inside their waters is a bad thing. It keeps the status quo and that is a good thing. https://vocaroo.com/17NUyagYZRf8
>>65118505>Doesn't matter, try again.yes it does. it's an ESCORT. being able to efficiently operate at typical merchant speeds is what they do. again, not a destroyer. a frigate is a destroyer-escort.>the exact same dimensionsand in a decade when the navy perfects it's deathray with all of it's power and crewing requirements, where are they going to put them? strap a CAT genset and some tents to the helicopter deck?>It would not require a larger crew.all the weapons and sensor systems they want to add and their care and feeding doesn't require more crew and it won't take up any space. riiiiiiight.>hate it because it looks funny.form follows function. a singular hull form allows for a greater adaptability in it's design. cut here. move a bulkhead there. add a few frames over there. and done. a longhull variant.the trimaran design was done for speed which a frigate doesn't need and you can't adapt them as easily. not to mention the pump jets. i mean really? for your el cheapo blue water escort ship you want them jacuzzi-powered?
>>65118544>>65118505Or both of you could stop posturing, stop fighting and come to a peaceful agreement to look at my girls ass in the interests of global peace.
>>65118271I'm sorry that you're seething, but Huntsville and Decatur have more technological and economic develop than 75% of Europe, minimum.
>>65115978>NSC designjesus fucking christ so instead of getting fremm they gonna bring back that clusterfuck of a design that was already obsolete in the 90s?hahahahahahahahhahahahaha
>>65118700Memphis Tennessee has more computing power than Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_(supercomputer)
>>65118783Europe has more computing power than Colossus, but Tennessee as a whole still has significantly more computing power than Europe thanks to Frontier and Lux at ORNL.
>>65118544>it's an ESCORT. being able to efficiently operate at typical merchant speeds is what they do.What makes you think this is a primary mission for any of the Navy's small surface combatants? Have they said anything about it? You'd think if it was, they wouldn't keep selecting designs with with no sonar and no air defenses. What threat is FF(x) going to be protecting shipping from?>and in a decade when the navy perfects it's deathray with all of it's power and crewing requirements, where are they going to put them? strap a CAT genset and some tents to the helicopter deck?They'll design a new class, obviously. What makes you think the Legend class would be suitable for this?>all the weapons and sensor systems they want to add and their care and feeding doesn't require more crew and it won't take up any space. riiiiiiight.I take it you're not aware that the FF(x) is planned to use the sensor suite from the Independence class?>form follows function. a singular hull form allows for a greater adaptability in it's design. cut here. move a bulkhead there. add a few frames over there. and done. a longhull variant.Except in this case, the LCS was designed and built in modular sections that get welded together. ExtendingIt would not be particularly difficult, and in fact there's already a design proposal that does exactly that. Designing a hull plug for the Legend class would not be easier and may indeed be more difficult.>trimaran design was done for speed which a frigate doesn't need and you can't adapt them as easily. not to mention the pump jets. i mean really? for your el cheapo blue water escort ship you want them jacuzzi-powered?Weird how the Legend class is so easily extensible and yet it needs a design contract worth half a ship just to figure out how to stuff the electronics that are already in the Independence class into it. Also weird how the Independence class has those gucci pumpjets and yet still costs hundreds of millions of dollars less.
>>65118483>just use smaller fuel tanks and reallocate the space for something else and it's mostly problem-solvedretard>the independence-class is based on a high-speed ferryretard>a 44 knot squirt-gun powered twin gas-turbine trimaranretard>frigates aren't destroyers. stop trying to make them be destroyers.surprisingly correct>they need FRIGATES desperately. slow boring cheap simple frigates to ride with the auxiliaries and merchant shipping and be unflattering ugly escorts. modern OHPs, and legends fit the bill better than anything else available.retard
>>65118003>you called me a mean name :(NIGGER
>fool me once, shame on youThe future is Burkes. Endless Burkes, forever.
