Post gear, discuss gearThe Mehler Vario Extremity Protection Edition.RIP Armorus Maximus, the first Armor Autist.Old: >>65529455
/gq/ Infographic Emporium:https://imgur.com/a/gq-infographic-emporium-1-00-1lZ5xw6Legacy Infographic Reserve: https://imgur.com/a/k-infographic-reserve-AIKzwWF>Last time on /gq/, Philly Trash Sniper decided he wanted some RF1 PE plates. Anon got fucked on some Safelife FRAS. A war was fought on two fronts for entirely different reasons about NIJ rules effortposting. RMA sux.>QUICK ARMOR GUIDE 2.178CODE: * = active NIJ-cert, ^ = NEEDS SOFT ARMOR, DND = do not drop, ** = military.>Special Rifle Threat:/pfg/: Protech X-CAL LP^DND (Last ditch option!)Budget: Hesco L211Mid-Range: Hesco M210High-End: Hesco U210 / U211, LSAPI**, or Tencate CR-6450SA.>CONUS Minimum (M80, M855, M193):Budget: Hesco 3611C, SAPI**^, or Gilliam 6001Mid-Range: Hesco 3612* or 3810*High-End: Hesco 3811* or 3811LV^DNDElite: Used Cercom CER-EMH**^>CONUS Medium (M80 + M855A1 or BZ API):Budget: Protech 2120-5Mid-Range: Hesco 3411* or LTC 19513High-End: LTC 28780**Elite: VelSys PBZSA**DND or Hesco SC3812 or Protech DT306C-HWElite-Plus: Used Ceradyne MH3 CQB**^DND (10x M995)>CONUS Optimal (M855A1 + M80A1):Budget: Highcom 3S9 (SAPI-cut)Mid-Range: Used LTC 28550** / 28590** or Highcom 3S9M* (SAPI-cut!)High-End: Used LTC 28595**Elite: Used LTC 28570** or VelSys TSA**Elite-Plus: Tyr XHA4/S6/T(DND) or GEN 6 LTC TSA**>Level IV / CONUS High (.30-06 M2AP):/pfg/: Used Protech 2014G (last ditch option)Budget: Gilliam 1023, Protech 2014MC, or Hesco 4403*Mid-Range: Hesco 4601* or ESAPI**^ (REV. G-J)High-End: Hesco 4800(DND), 4800LV^DND, or Protech 9812-R1(DND)Elite: Tencate CXP-800 SA or Ceradyne SOF ESAPI MK.II**^DND or Adept EmperorElite-Plus: Ceradyne SAEC**DND(??)>Level IV+ / CONUS Extreme (Various)Budget: Protech 2230 / Hesco-Protech 2230-1 (M2AP at +600ft/s) or Gilliam 8002 (.300 Winmag Swiss P AP)Mid-Range: Adept Colossus (7.62x51 Swiss P AP) or REV. C XSAPI**^ (M993)High-End: Rev. D XSAPI**^ (7N37?)Elite: ECSAPI** (M993)Elite-Plus: Ceradyne 96034** (7.62x51 Swiss P)
okay, someone tell me why i shouldn't buy a hypershell exo
UNRIVALED Sof esapi anon, just got the new adept flip up mandible. The nvg mount is ass and the circlet is annoying to mount but overall for sure an improvement over the old mandible. Next I'm getting the lobster tail as a counter weight
>>65566259Fucking love SOF ESAPIs, I'm jealous. You cannot argue with 10-hit BZ API at 1" if you're up close.Speaking of kewl plates, Gilliam just put a video out saying they have ceramic for just two more 8002s, the IV++ Swiss P AP rated tile array. 8.5lb / 1.25" thick 10.3x12.3, $628 a set if anyone wants any. It will be discontinued in favor of a TBA monolithic RF3+ plate.I'd buy but I'm happy with the 2230s and I don't like single curve.
>>65566259chat is this real
>>65566395confirmed real. He is one of the three chads with SOF ESAPIs.In armor news, Jinwudun just released a new iteration of IIIA visor. This time there's a silicone seal that covers the helmet-visor gap for adverse environments. Me gusta.https://jinwudun.com/products/nij-iiia-level-bulletproof-face-shield-with-waterproof-silicone-layer-universal-tactical-equipment-bulletproof-face-shieldI see however they walked back the 12 gauge slug rating. No me gusta.
New stuff alert. Buffman got the new RMA 1155 GEN2 in. I was right, they did make the 9.5x12.5" SAPI Ms smaller. It's now 9.25x12.20". I know this sounds tiny but it's a ~5% difference, which means if we size correct to true SAPI M, the 7.485lb 1155 GEN2 is actually 7.88lb, about same weight as a Hesco 4403 in that size.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ojkwpA3zRY
>>65565549Armored boss might be too rich for trash sniper. I think it’s the lightest cheapest maybe thinnest plate in its class. Important note is that this does not include the backer so this is my next move. Getting something better is tempting but being able to throw these plates around and tank Tula from an arp is mighty fine
>>65566855Then it sounds like the Helion or GARMS 1 is the play, depending on whether you want SA or ICW
>>65566887I don’t think they have the Helion available anymore. This is just from cursory glance though. Not sure the specs (weight/thickness) between the two
>>65566887>>65566910Scratch that - found it. They have strange product info then actual product pages
>>65566914Since Militech is out for the count value-wise, that's the best value you're gonna get for RF1. Just be aware it's a thick fucker at 1.15"Armored Boss claims to be using "Super UHMWPE", a more dense version, hence why their shit is thinner. Just about every time a company claims to have a secret sauce, it turned out bullshit at worst and marginal at best. If there is a secret, every other company will want to get their hands on it. Ceradyne never told anybody they had doped boron carbide in certain plates.
>>65566958I love the idea of super plastic. It sounds like some prime bullshit though. What’s generally thinner? Dedicated or icw? Also, is rf1/2/3 a new standard as compared to generic levels (3,3:5,4,etc) or is levels just a base catch all? I think these rf1 will be the lightest budget wise, but maybe not throw them under a jacket thin
>>65566965>What’s generally thinner? Dedicated or icw?The plate itself is thinner ICW by a substantial amount. However, if you count soft armor then ICW + Soft will equal the standalone or actually exceed it, because separate unconnected layers are not as efficient. Depends on the soft armor panel.>Also, is rf1/2/3 a new standard as compared to generic levels (3,3:5,4,etc)Yeah, RF1-3 is NIJ 0101.07. Levels are NIJ 0101.06 and prior. RF1 is Level III but with multi hit down to 3x instead of 6x, but with 7.62x39mm MSC and 5.56 M193 also added as threats. RF2 adds M855. RF3 is single strike M2AP, same as IV.>I think these rf1 will be the lightest budget wise, but maybe not throw them under a jacket thinPrimo solution will be the Hesco 3801LV, but that's expensive. Thinner and lighter.
Kitty with C2A1 filter in tin
>>65566550lol buff is deleting comments
>>65567035Yeah I just saw this one got hosed. See pic rel. He doesn't normally do that, so this is odd.
>>65566969Gotcha, many-thanks. Trying to become more familiar with terminology/standards here. Time for more reading. We need 5” thick polyethylene rf3. Not that ceramic will not survive shipping, but can you frisby ceramic?
>>65567069>but can you frisby ceramic?Depends! NIJ 0101.06 requires only the plate do its job after falling four feet onto concrete twice with a 10lb weight on the back. Armor before that? No drop!>>65567052this is a shit look for matt
>>65567069>Not that ceramic will not survive shippingAlso, if packaged improperly, yes armor can be ruined by rough shipping. A guy or two got 4SAS4s back in '24 which failed tap and torque out of the box. Those are 0101.04 no-drop plates.
>>65567052I'm pretty sure having a link in your comment is what got it deleted. Happened to me as well when I was talking with buffman and cited a source with a link, and the comment got insta deleted, but was fine after I removed it.
>>65567151I tried posting afterwards without it, no dice.
>>65567159oof that sucks then, buffman is probably the only guy on yt that tests armor semi-seriously
>>65567164I'll try again later sans link. If he's got me blocked then I'm gonna laugh my ass off.>buffman is probably the only guy on yt that tests armor semi-seriouslyYeah but he's really in bed with RMA. See how he spins the RMA 1192 situation and just says stuff that isn't true. >>65567052
>>65567164Just posted sans link entirely and it's fine. I looked it up and it's apparently a channel setting, he has to approve comments with links manually, so kinda crappy still if he isn't doing that.Ah well
>>65567346Prob been linked to sketchy stuff one too many times for him to turn on that setting + ignore the flag for the manual comment review
>>65567374Right. Waiting to see what he says about the 1155 GEN1 test fail and the 1192 issue, because what he's saying about +/-0.5lb tolerance being an industry norm just isn't true. It's also not allowed by NIJ either for CPL'd plates. RMA doesn't even show it in their test reports for non-CPL'd plates! Three 1165s with a ~0.016lb difference and he got 1192s 10oz heavier than advertised, and 0.25lb heavier still than the final B4C-SiC version? Nah, something was fishy about that.Also, if he concedes the ~0.25lb difference on the 1192s stinks, well, his old 1155s were 0.225lb heavier than advertised. Calls into question that test too, because a "variance" goes both ways it's really a manufacturing tolerance. Good news is that his 1155 GEN2s DO actually math out areal density wise versus the actually 9.5x12.5" ones in the Element Materials reports, so they aren't ringers. The spread on those was 0.058lb, by the way.>>65566550So to actually address the results, the SAPI M 1155 G2 is basically a Hesco 4403 which lacks 0101.06 or 0101.07 cert, it's about the same price, and the 10x12 is way undersize. Even if it weren't an RMA, pass. It offers nothing on the 4403 and it gets its ass kicked on paper by the Gilliam 1635 otherwise in the non-certified arena.
>>65565921I love magpul gloves soo much because the dexterity is insane isekai cheat magician level but mine are destroyed. What gloves to get if not more magpul
>>65567616mechanix, original or the m-pacts depending on how much you tear them up
>>65567618NTA but mechanix makes me feel like I have retarded sausage fingers. Speaking of, how do I protect my hands from boolit?All this talk about rma is giving me migrane. Gloves.
>>65567625>>65567618Yes this mechanix is good for the money but not tactile enough
If I already have a 3 mag placard with MOLLE on the front would you guys recommend getting a whole new placard that can hold 6 or just attaching another 3 to the front?
>>65567737That's just personal preference. At the end of the day, it does the same thing. Getting a new placard, plus inserts will probably be more money, but it will look better than just slapping something on the front; but at the end of the day, you'll still just have a placard with 6 mags.
>>65567756Does it not matter when youre running around? Or for durability?Assuming the cummerbund attaches to the placard
>>65567759Well, yeah. The more attachment points you have, the more chance of failure. Having all 6 in a placard is usually a bit more snug. That being said, you're probably not going to be running around in your plate carrier enough for them to ever fail.
>>65567776Probably not noThat said, do you have any recommendations for a placard that fits 6? Or a decent 3 mag pouch?
>>65567778I run the shaw concepts v4 with the ram inserts, and spectr insert in front. It's nice because if I don't want to run 6 mags, the spectr insert sits flat.
>>65567785Ive been heavily considering the ARC v4, the issue is finding it, let alone in a decent pattern.
>>65567789Yeah, buying anything shaw is a huge pain in the ass. Most of my carrier is shaw, and it took me nearly 2 years to get everything I wanted. I had to follow them on twitter and check very frequently for when they announced restock. Plus their shit is expensive as well. Unfortunately, I can't recommend anything else, because it's the only thing I've actually used.
>>65567792Good to knowJust trying my luck, but is Esstac any good? If Im thinking about NIR
>>65565921This seems like a good place to ask, so what's some good backpacks for everyday use that aren't tacticool "gray man" tier? Something around 28L that has sufficient compartments and could work for conceal carry would be ideal.
>>65567837I hear vertx packs are pretty good and don't scream tacticool
>>65567837LL Bean Super Deluxe Book Pack 41LIt will last you for years and fits in at school, the airport, the office, or wherever.
>>65567852>>65567854Thanks, I'll check them out.
>>65567879My first LL Bean from middle school is still being used. That should say something.
>>65567625Unironically 6x6" soft armor panel mittens. DIY.
>>65567616Try out the Viktos Operatus gloves.
>>65567909damn cuh ll bean like nokiaI see homeless people with ll bean. They know the consequences of gear failure better than most. Vagabonds have urban knowledge.
>>65566197How do you plan on recharging it in the field?
>>65567879been using my vertex regularly for 6 years and it's held up great
>>65566259hit the helmet with some chrome spray paint and let me know of it looksthx
>>65566197dunno about your body, but my limiting factor is my knees not my muscles, that wouldn't help me at all
>>65567837I like tnf bags a lot. I got a generic camelbak bag and it’s held up great too. Rei brand bags are “okay.” Osprey seems to get a lot of takers, but I personally haven’t really like them all that much.
>>65567374Talked with Buff. He admits the sizing is a big problem. Apparently Highcom told him he was making a "mountain out of a molehill."A plate being sold as 10x12 but is really 9x11 with bottom corner cuts is a small problem? Ya shitting me highcom? You're selling people mediums but giving them smalls.Is there a gun-adjacent industry with more shenanigans than armor? I honestly don't think there is!
Guy on Ebay has 5x7" Armor Express SAPs for sale. They're basically just blunt trauma reduction. $14 a pop.https://www.ebay.com/itm/1779336687547x10" also available here for $16 a pop but higher shipping.https://www.ebay.com/itm/178003596522I think they were intended as a soft, modern version of the old steel trauma plates from the 1990s and are meant to be worn with IIIA soft to take the steam out of a 12 gauge slug or similar. Could be useful for DIY. Slap em behind homebrew extremity armor in accordance with the ARMORUS MAXIMUS spirit.
>$70 BA3A>$65 genuine Ops Core arc rails new open box>$40 genuine 3M Peltor arc rail mounts new open box>$20 Impact Sports used excellent condition>$30 for rubber seal and epoxy I just ordered to do high cut mod to BA3A>$225 all inMade it out of here not too bad for a poorfag. Just had to check facebook/ebay listings once or twice a night for a couple weeks. Still looking for a good discount on a used shroud/nvg (Prowl 2, NVG 30/50, GNG2K, yes I know digital poop but it works till I save up for PVS-14) then the poorfag special is really complete.
>>65569160If you're getting digital mono then the GNG2K is still the top play. I would not go below NVG-30. You can usually get a 30 off an airsoft kid for $100 once he realizes other people can see him blasting the illuminator to high hell. 50 is awkward and because of the design doesn't sit at the right height for some people.I have a 30 with the aftermarket wide view lens. It's... okay. You'll have an edge over people with just flashlights but you're strictly outclassed by all decent analog.I kinda liken digital NV to steel plates. Lot of people think they're getting The Free Lunch(tm) with both. You don't. Better than nothing but a hell of a lot worse than The Real Deal(tm).
>>65569317Thanks for the info>Better than nothing but a hell of a lot worse than The Real Deal(tm).Yeah for sure, I figure I'll get a quality shroud/mount then snipe a deal for a digital then when I can buy analog I can recoup 80% of the cost reselling the digital later they seem to hold value.
>>65569352They sorta hold value because the later gen versions are extremely incremental improvements, so there's no reason to upgrade from NVG30 to Nvg3rd to GNG2K. People either go to the highball $1k and up digital units (SVG-5, NVG-90) or they go to analog. The Goodnitegear SVG-5 is supposed to be promising, but GNG is the RMA of night vision, so give em a grain of salt.Speaking of RMA. Congratulations to "Cheese" for doing what Matt Landfair at P&S could not - beating RMA in a plate debate.
>>65569352Two guys have NVG-50s for under $400 a pop, accepting offers. If you're feeling slick, maybe try and do a little "he's offering me this" bluffing and get some lowballs.https://www.ebay.com/itm/189038421887https://www.ebay.com/itm/257782113098Also please do the needful and listen to this god awful youtube auto-dub of a Russian plate test. Dude sounds like he's busting while passing a gallstone.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx_1Umb1-20
>>65566550>gets fucked by 855a1 and m2apLMAOthe highcom 3++ did better than this unironically.
>>65569352why do poor faggots waste money on digital NV always amazes me. Unironically get a flashlight poor beggar. Save up for months, years if needed, then buy a 3-4k legit PVS14. GET THESE BEGGERS OUT OF HERE.
>>65569593Ah, right, now that Buff tested the 1155 GEN2 we can finally do a head to head showdown between the three budget Made-in-America Level IVs. I'll give the RMA credit, it did better than the 4S17M. Considering the 4S17M is 8.6lb SAPI M, the Hesco is 7.9lb, and the RMA is about 7.9lb if it's actually fucking SAPI M, that's humiliating. Where is the extra 0.7lb going? That's more than the difference between an ESAPI or XSAPI. Hell, it's the difference between a Hesco 4601 or actually 10x12 Adept Colossus.>the highcom 3++ did better than this unironicallyThe 3S9M? That's a $1k/set plate with a thick-ass PE backer. You're comparing it to a fiberglass budget IV. Of course it's going to put on a better multi-hit show.By the way, has anyone noticed how much of a ripoff the 3S9M is, given it only has an Alumina strike face but is in Silicon Carbide price territory?>>65569596It appears my analogy that digital NV is akin to steel plates is... decisively on the money.
My search for a plastic frisby plate continues. If we dropped down to hg2, how thin could we get here? Slick territory or is soft armor the better route?
>>65569639The gap between HG2 / IIIA and RF1 / III is a canyon ten miles wide. You sure you want to do that? Basic rifle threats will penetrate HG2 five times over, easily.If you're firm on this, the Hesco P210 is a pound for legit 10x12 and only 0.27" thick, $300 a set. Be warned it's actually a "special pistol threat" plate, not even IIIA, and is only good for 3x multi-hit on listed threats, not the NIJ IIIA mandated 6x minimum. However, it'll do non-AP 5.7x28mm and 7.62x25mm. That's beyond the scope of IIIA.Be warned that if you're in Chinatown they probably have the steel-core 7.62x25 from Norinco which will pop this shit easy. You need very special, beefy, thick soft armor for that, or, you know, rifle plates.https://sierratac.com/product/hesco-200-series-armor-level-iiia-stand-alone-plate-p210/https://sierratac.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/sierratac-hesco-P210-tech-sheet.pdf>Slick territory or is soft armor the better route?This is gonna sound goofy but quality soft armor is actually way more expensive. Highcom SA2910 is comparable to the P210 on special threats but is over $1k/set for BALCS front + back medium. Cheaper soft is available from Gilliam and Militech.
>>65569639And this is unofficial, since there is no official IIIA+ or IIIB rating under any NIJ spec, but here is Pinnacle Armor's chart from about 2006. It shows a good pecking order for various oddball pistol threats. As you can see, 7.62x25 steel core is in league with much tougher stuff in the IIIB category, including KTW metal-piercing ammo. This is all stuff beyond the rating of the Hesco P210, too, since it is explicitly only rated for generic "non-AP" 5.7 or 7.62x25. KTWs have been out of production for many years but there's still some hanging around. It was the infamous "teflon coated bullet" the media went on a frenzy about decades ago. Thus, it is an "ambient threat" if you will, kinda like M2AP.And yeah, some literature on the P210 says 0.24" thick, other documents say 0.27", I always assume the uglier number is the true one given the spotty issue of "variance."
>>65569596>>65569615Nerfanon here. While analog NV is far superior to active-IR digitals in almost every technical way, after exhaustive and fun experimentation I found that digitals do have some practical use cases in non-combat situations and/or against non-peer threats, such as wildlife observation/hunting, property surveillance (checking out bumps in the night), and avoiding criminals/homeless in urban areas. Deer, homeless addicts, and your average Crip don't have NV and never will; against them you are the one-eyed man in the land of the blind. The cheapness of digitals and their near-complete immunity to bright light damage are also pluses, especially for trainers/loaners. If your stupid "friend" or 10-year old cousin stares directly into a blindingly bright LED street light for half an hour straight, or drops them onto concrete from the third story balcony, would you rather them do it to your legit PVS-14 or a $35 Chinesium digital mono? Also, don't forget that the best NVDs are technically digitals, because last I checked there's no feasible analog thermals. LARPing as the Predator with a $400 Infiray is absolutely fucking awesome, which leads me to the last rule of NV: all NVs, even digitals, are fucking FUN. My first NVD was a Nerf Modulus Day/Night Scope, rigged with an old TV remote for additional/better IR illumination. Shit objectively sucks but hell, it's a blast playing with it even today, and the local raccoons still don't realize I can see them sneaking around on the fence in total darkness with the shittiest $20 NVD in existence. Sometimes I also use my Nightfox Cape to see when I walk to my car after work, because I want to avoid any hobos sleeping in dark corners of the street and it's always fun to operate operationally, even with cheap-ass digitals.tl;dr: Digitals have some small advantages and uses, in some cases even better than analog, and they are always FUN.
Range wknd
>>65569863ATACs camos are so good, shame nobody uses them other than ziggers
>>65569863needs cloak
>>65570647Five Star Alterations makes great stuff I own one of their ponchos
>>65570677I'm talking aliexpress rizz cloakATACs custom with a coyote fur collar
>>65569859>last I checked there's no feasible analog thermalsgood thing you know nothing because that's what the role of a Jerry overlay or any of the higher refresh thermals N number of them even if they are digital, your point makes no sense.>muh FUNthere's no situation where I want a digital NV. NONE. FUCKING NONE NIGGER. if I am riding an ATV, Polaris, car, helo, whatever I am using quality nods. Any force on force scenario your shitty digital crap is getting SHIT on, by anything, especially high humidity, etc. Get the fuck out with MUH FUN.Go do a force on force with digital whatever and shitty sub 384 thermals and see how well you do against anyone with actual NV and/or actual thermal.
>>65569615>The 3S9M? That's a $1k/set plate with a thick-ass PE backer. You're comparing it to a fiberglass budget IV. Of course it's going to put on a better multi-hit show.>By the way, has anyone noticed how much of a ripoff the 3S9M is, given it only has an Alumina strike face but is in Silicon Carbide price territory?my point is the 1155 gen 2 gets fucking btfo by a non level 4 plate, hilarious. Yes you get what you pay for.
>>65571180Yeah, that's because RF3 / Level IV is a single strike requirement and Level III is a six hit @ 51mm min spacing. The 3S9M will get its ass beat by M2AP at 2,910ft/s. It can't even do 7.62x54R B-32 API (Apex lied!). Many IVs will bomb the 6-hit 7.62x51mm M80 Level III test. This isn't new. IVs have stronger strike faces. IIIs have stronger backers. If you want to do both you buy a III/IV dual rated plate like our good friend the Protech 2230, or the Hesco 4601, Hesco-Protech 2230-1, etc.>>65571175Neetmaster vs Nerfanon? Ah shit here we go.
>>65571180You're also gonna get a laugh out of this. Pair of "government property" stickered RMA 1155s, the old shitty "lost to two hits of 7.62x51mm Tulammo FMJ" 8.3lb single curve, backed by Safariland IIIA soft armor, in a Safariland carrier.https://www.ebay.com/itm/267568627136What absolute joker agency was running standalone 8.3lb single curve IVs with IIIA soft? Also note these were after the NIJ removal of the 1155, because the NIJ Mark is missing from the labels.
>>65571311Those U.S. Government Property stickers have what appears to be a QR code on them. Not sure if that has any useful data in it to figure out which federal agency used non-NIJ cert armor in an ICW setup. Possibly some sort of emergency purchase, or a test/training sample? I know some agencies retain seized property for training purposes, and often mark them with U.S. property stickers.
>>65571348Seized property explanation makes sense. The RMA 1155 sold by the truckload, so it would be more likely than other models to appear like this.If you have the scratch for Safariland then El Federale could have bought some Protech 2240s on the feds' dime courtesy of BVP.
Poorfags. Brotach Cuhplus has come in again with plates on the cheap.7.8lb Paraclete 10800s for $200 a set. Level IV. Alumina-fiberglass construction. Like a Hesco 4401 but with more safety margin. $200 a set. 19 plates. The 10x12 might be a little undersize.https://surplus.botach.com/point-blank-paraclete-10800-10x12-nij-level-iv-hard-armor-plates-set-police-trade/They also have other stuff, like 2092s in questionable condition, Protech 2115G full cut plates, IMPAC-HTs, etc. Also unbranded full cut 6lb plates for $150 a set if you wanna gamble. I'd reckon they're old school First Choice or RBR Level III ceramics, ICW IIIA.
Also this fucking guy still has 115 Protech X-CAL LPs for $30 a plate with $15 per unit shipping. He used to have over 200 so it's pretty evident cheap shit sells. Maybe Nerfanon has a point... These suck but are better than nothing. They need very specific soft armor to make rating. Regular IIIA won't cut it.https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1211046479
>>65567027What’s a good source for 40mm CBRN filters? I have a bunch of expired MSA’s from my old job. >>65567616Had a pair of Oakley SI Pilot gloves that fit super but lost them. Currently enjoying Picrel OR’s.
Why can't you soak a pasgt vest in water?
>>65571752The soft armor inside isn't waterproofed and will perform worse if soaked.
>>65571766Okay but things can.......dry. It will dry.
>>65571800The fibers weaken when exposed to water. Modern panels are sealed.
Tell me if I'm retarded. Why don't people come up with rail-mointed clamps so you can use side plates as gun shields? Mount them to the sides of a quad rail.
Hey Anons, I recently bought my first plate carrier after lurking for ages. What are the current recommendations for level 3(or 4) plates? Ideally, I don't want to spend more than a grand on 2 plates and I also don't want steel plates. Also is there a recommended dump pouch to buy and first aid kit?Thanks for your help.
>>65571842How do they get permanently weakened by simple water? It's not like they come apart or get damaged in any way if soaked.
>>65571867Hesco 4601 is very hard to argue against at 10x12, 6.4lb, 1.18" thick, NIJ certified Level IV and it also meets Level III too, so the multi hit is good. The 10x12 is also true 10x12, so there's no sizing bullshit like there is with Highcom, RMA, Adept, etc. A lot of companies undersize plates to make it look like their products are lighter.Problem is that the 4601 only goes below $1k/set on a good day. Think more $1,150-1.2k. The 8x10s are real cheap though if that's your size. If you already have the grand saved then save another paycheck, IMO.If you are willing to buy used, see if this guy has Paraclete 9900X's in your size.https://tacswap.com/post/66d50f08ca7a07747a375158If you are willing to buy Chinese, Militech RF3 Black Label. If you are willing to wait, the Protech 2230-1s should be getting surped out soonish. Maybe a few months to a year. Basically a 4601 if it put on 0.4lb extra muscle, but it's a bit unproven. Could be interesting if bubba's nuclear M2AP reloads are an issue in your area. For Level III, decide if you need M855A1 or not.
>>65571879Repeated water exposure accelerates long term degradation. It's a chemical thing. The panel will mostly regain strength when it dries back out but conditioning does still drop the v50s somewhat. Modern soft armor is overbuilt so it still passes requirements after being conditioned. Old shit mostly wasn't. PASGTs are old.
>>65571911Wasn't that and heat what degraded Zylon so fast? To the naked eye and touch it seemed fine, but virtually any bullet zipped through like it wasn't even there.
>>65571911That's not how kevlar works. Or any meterial inside those things. Water simply does not damage them in any way. There's not a single study or paper supporting your claims.
I ordered a rebels raiders vakarian as my first plate carrier and I saw we're gonna get like a 50$ coupon code for RMA 1165 gen 2 plates, are those worth the buy? Seems like a decent deal for $250 bucks. Also should I go SAPI or shooters cut?
>>65572166That's a lotta cope. The NIJ .06 standard massively enhanced the water testing because water does in fact impact ballistic performance:>"The ballistic resistant vest also needs to be tested under specific conditions, including dropping into a water bath of approx. 21 degrees for 30 minutes. The former NIJ standard 0101.04 only required a water spray test for 6 minutes, which necessarily did not make the body armor waterproof." (Highcom)If armor materials had no issue with water at all, as you claim wrongly, this wouldn't be needed. Your PASGT predates even 0101.04.Indeed, "UHMWPE is a waterproof material that won’t be weighed down by liquid absorption. This resistance to moisture makes UHMWPE ideal for use in humid or wet conditions, and even in the production of tents and backpacks. On the other hand, Kevlar tends to absorb up to 3.5% of its own weight in water, thus reducing its effectiveness in wet or humid conditions." (Otex)PE plates are preferred for maritime use for good reason, but UHMWPE in general needs to be heat tested too. Kevlar absorbs water and becomes less effective. Shrimple as.
>>65572589>I saw we're gonna get like a 50$ coupon code for RMA 1165 gen 2 plates, are those worth the buy? Seems like a decent deal for $250 bucks.No. Bad call. It's an undersized plate with minimal safety margin and questionable drop protection. Buffman straight up wasn't allowed to drop his. at all. I would actually find it alarming they're supposedly selling these like hotcakes but they have a $50 coupon about to drop. Curious how they're breaking even given the cost of labor, overhead, Bitossi ceramic and Dyneema PE...I assume you didn't see last thread and the beginning of this one, but RMA has a long history of bullshitting, they're stalling on NIJ certs for made up reasons, and there are discrepancies between what people are getting and what youtubers are getting. Plates aren't performing consistently. They also cry bullshit whenever their armor fails and made Buffman retract a test fail of the ESRT. Is that who you wanna buy life saving equipment from? Zero accountability.>Also should I go SAPI or shooters cut?Stick with what your carrier is designed to fit. If it does 10x12 or 9.5x12.5 SAPI M, great. Best alternative if you can do Chinesium is Gilliam 1635. 6.35lb actual 10x12 RF3. 10x12. Under $400 a set. Ceramic is Bitossi 99.7% Italian alumina, same as the RMA, but the 1635 does otherwise use some Chinese components. If you can't do Chinese then you're probably gonna want to roll Hesco. Save your pennies for 4601s or accept 4403s are gonna be 7.7lb a pop. Otherwise, reeval whether you really need IV / RF3.>>65571995Yeah pretty much. Case in point for both RMA's bogus claimed hypure ceramic weight reductions and Second Chance et al's Zylon. There. Is. No. Free. Lunch.
>>65572619>because water does in fact impact ballistic performance:Temporarily yes. Not permanently
>>65573030Repeated water exposure does however accelerate aging, as said earlier.There is a reason why armor is sold with a warranty, and why NIJ upgraded the mandatory water protocol with 0101.06. According to the NIJ, over 30% of armor submitted for compliance testing doesn't pass. Clearly the conditioning protocols and other requirements are separating wheat from chaff, because with 0101.04 even Zylon and Dragonskin found themselves certified compliant.If you use shitty adhesive then water can also damage that, or affect trauma layers meant to cut down on BFD if the panel isn't watertight.Well designed armor does not go bad with age alone, except on maybe a geological time scale, but poor handling can do it in. Again, there is a reason why soft armor rarely exceeds a 10y warranty and is often well under that.
>>65572166>Water simply does not damage them in any way>>65573030>Temporarily yes. Not permanentlyholy backpedal
>>65572801>>65571902you keep recommending 4601 but what's to stop me from getting LTC 3++ and just accepting that. Seems like a better compromise between weight and price. I think some of the highcomm models have B2API protection to no? The 4601 doesn't seem like much of a deal to me.Also RMA has been getting BTFO recently but their new 1165s are super light (yes they are technically cheating), but what's the neg on those? not multi thread IRL? just the sacrifice on drop ready? what's the free lunch.
Hesco, Gilliam, RMA, Spartan, Dayton, many others use Bitossi. It is the highest quality ballistic alumina in the world. Cerco (US-based) can't touch the purity and flexible design capabilities. Interesting how you believe to know so many details about manufacturers. Where are you getting your inside information? HyPure is just 99.7% Bitossi alumina (obvious from YT testing videos). The weight reduction is real... the higher purity alumina frankly makes it a super strong choice for standard RF2 threats and as an RF3 plate. Maybe .5 pounds between RF3 SiC and 99.7% alumina but at about 50% of the strike face cost and shatters less. The trick with the 99.7% is to use a hard enough PE that increases dwell time between the bullet and the ceramic but not so hard that it facilitates a penetration. Chinese PE is usually very soft with water-based polyurethane resins and normally is not at all able to handle this task well.
>>65573139>you keep recommending 4601Because it provides dead nuts reliable, NIJ certified IV protection which also passes III. In other words, it's a comprehensive protection overt plate. You would need statistically very unlikely threats to beat it. M993, Swiss P AP, M2AP reloaded hot out of a .300 Winmag or preferably a .300Wby, etc.>what's to stop me from getting LTC 3++ and just accepting thatThe 19513? Nothing, it's a perfectly fine plate at 5.25lb SAPI M. Just be aware the spacing on M855A1 needs to be wide. Also be aware it's not tested versus M80A1, M61, B-32 API, M2AP, M995, etc so it will run out of gas a lot faster than the 4601.>Seems like a better compromise between weight and priceEntirely situational. M2AP makes mincemeat out of III+ plates. You do not want to be caught with 19513s if you're up against dudes sporting those magnum reloads. The 19513 is however more than adequate for "street" protection.>I think some of the highcomm models have B2API protectionThis is false, Apex regularly exaggerates plate ratings and Highcom's actual documentation only shows the 3S9M doing M61, which is below B-32.>The 4601 doesn't seem like much of a deal to me.Wait for it to go on sale for $900/set with Sierra. He does that every now and again. Then it's a great deal.> what's the neg on those 1165sIf you do the math to correct sizing then the 1165 GEN2 is 6.45lb for true SAPI M and 6.2lb for 10x12, which is entirely too light for an Alumina-PE RF3 and means it has poor "headroom." In other words, it only meets requirements by a hair. Even though the new version has some drop protection, there are no new test reports showing it meets spec after a drop.Furthermore, the 1155 GEN2 and 1165 GEN2 are very similar. The only difference is that the 1165 has a polyethylene backer vs the 1155's fiberglass. As seen with the 1155, multi hit is mediocre. >>65566550.
>>65573171Interesting contentions. I'm not disputing 99.7% is now industry standard. I've said that myself months ago. The issue is RMA is clearly using the 99.7% as a smoke screen for their new sizing bullshittery.>DaytonShit plates.>HescoYes, and their plates are actually very close to their stated size. Buffman said that himself. Weird thing RMA doesn't do.>The weight reduction is realLol, it isn't, because the 1155 GEN2, if you correct sizing, is same weight as a Hesco 4403. The 4403 is same weight as the 4400MC from a decade ago. Buffman got RMA 1155 plates that were about 9.2x12.2 and 7.4lb, matching advertised weight but not size. Test reports show 9.5x12.5 and just under 7.9lb. Same as a 4403. Areal density checks out. RMA even admits they made the plates smaller allegedly because they weren't fitting carriers. Again, smoke screen.Furthermore, the 1165 GEN2 has no test reports showing it can take a drop on RMA's site. The weight savings with them are just underbuilding. To address Gilliam, I'd like to see the M2AP v50 on the 1635. Got a feeling it's... Hesco-esque.If the weight savings were truly genuine, RMA wouldn't turn to making the 10x12s into 9.5x11.5s with bottom corners cut and the SAPI Ms 9.2x12.2, both with variance, at the same damn time they switched to 99.7%. RMA used to call other guys out for sizing. One year later, they're playing sizing games too.>Maybe .5 pounds between RF3 SiC and 99.7% aluminaHalf a pound is a major difference. Indeed, the RMA 1165 is somehow same weight as the Hesco 4601 despite the latter using SiC. Also Gilliam did test an Alumina plate versus M993 and it shit the bed hard, so if you want IV+ protection SiC is the far better play, see their 8002 which beats M993 decisively.>Chinese PE is usually very soft with water-based polyurethane resins and normally is not at all able to handle this task wellWhich is odd because Militech's plates hold up very well in Buffman's testing despite being all-Chinese.
>65573244>Indeed, the RMA 1165 is somehow same weight as the Hesco 4601And as a side bar on this, I am accounting for RMA's stated +-0.125lb variance, which means the 1165 or 1155 can go up or down 0.125lb, so there on paper should be 1165s about matching the 4601 on areal density and also those going under. If you refer to Gilliam's 1635 test reports, you'll see plates heavier even by a tenth of a pound have reduced BFD, going from around 40mm BFS to mid thirties. It's physics. Every bit counts. When plates are chasing weight and not tested reliability then this variance becomes a problem.Personally I'm just glad I'm sitting on a pair of 2230s that have a cool 600ft/s safety margin over Level IV M2AP velocity.
>>65573206sounds like the 4601 and 19513 are the ways to go compared to even the newer RMA stuff t b h. I saw that buffman video they got shredded. why were the old gen 1s better?
>>65573244Chinese pe has the trash sniper’s attention. I want a frisby plate. I will have a Chinese laser disposition review (shit/not shit soon). The options are baffling. Vis light/laser. Ir light/laser. Vis light / ir laser. Ir light / vis laser. >>65569859I approve. >>65567109This is especially why I love plastic. >>65569660>>65569676Likely not but window shopping with wishful thinking. Speaking of 5.7, I will be testing kel tec’s latest finest product soon.
>>65573291>sounds like the 4601 and 19513 are the ways to go compared to even the newer RMA stuff t b hAgreed. The problem is again the absolute, iron law that is the no free lunch rule. If you want quality, you're gonna have to pay for it or you're going to have to buy used and play the used armor condition lottery. The no free lunch rule is iron law with armor. There are no exceptions.>I saw that buffman video they got shredded. why were the old gen 1s better?They weren't. Pic related shows a GEN1 1155 tested by anon some years back versus Buffman's testing right after the FIT failure and NIJ revocation of the old 1155.I'll let anon's results speak for themselves. A pathetic showing for a 8.3lb plate that was advertised multi-hit Level IV. Notably, Buffman's plates, allegedly from the same lot as the NIJ FIT failure, were 8.5lb rather than the advertised 8.3lb. This 0.2lb variance is NOT allowed under NIJ rules for certified armor. >See NIJ 0101.06 Section 4.1.4: "There shall be no variance in construction details between individual armor samples or between any armor sample and the manufacturer’s documentation." Ergo Buff's plates were likely ringers. There's no other easy argument other than his scale being off and his scale is demonstrably accurate in every other test I've seen.I believe that guy was probably referring to the old 1189, which only had 8x10" protection on a 10x12" but was otherwise a very beefy multi-hit tile array, good for multiple M2AP over NIJ spec. Obviously that coverage loss is unacceptable and the GEN2 1189 which never released was going to be over 9lb, direct from RMA themselves.
The weight advantage in the 99.7% tile I am referring to is not in the lateral dimensions, it's in the thickness. Thinner ceramic strike faces are used at 99.7% with good V50s. Look at Gilliam's video showing cross sections of PE taken from various R&D projects using the same 99.7% tile. Some of those test reports show 2950 fps M2AP. The best performer is barely 30% impacted at the crown crater.Foam added to the plate perimeter can mask the true height and width by 10mm in either direction. I agree that drop protection on those plates has been intentionally ignored. They counter criticism by stating "well, the plate has a crack arrestor". Crack arrestors are usually quite thin and unless you increase the thickness to 2mm+, you don't get any real drop protection from them..5 pounds is a difference... and I indicated manufacturing costs (not retail). Retail costs for SiC plates versus alumina can be substantially higher. Most of the time, not worth the cost difference if you're running 99.7% alumina with a stiff PE backer. But that's a personal decision.99%+ of what you will see on the street is non-tungsten stuff... a 99.7% alumina is a fantastic choice for everyday RF3 protection. I have worked with it a lot. If you want to lug around 8.4 pound plates all day in the remote chance you will be hit with M993 or Swiss P AP (really?) then that's a personal choice too.Finally, I never said that Chinese PE was "bad" . The "task" I referred to was to back up a thin 99.7% alumina strike face... and to do that "task" you need a firm PE backer (not a flexible Chinese PE in this case). The flexibility in Chinese PE is often a multi-hit advantage, especially with a slightly more robust ceramic strike face and or ceramic mosaic pieces (square or hex) that have to absorb more directed per tile ballistic energy.What is your industry connection?
>>65573311>Chinese pe has the trash sniper’s attentionWell you were already looking at it with Gilliam. The GARMS 1 and Helion are damn cheap for a reason. No free lunch part more. >This is especially why I love plastic.Also PE plates have better multi-hit than ceramic. If you look at the RMA 1155 in >>65573372, it seems plainly obvious the plate had a deficient crack arrestor and shot #1 compromised the ceramic enough shot #2 could pass through. Problem is that was a fair hit against a much weaker threat than what the plate was advertised to handle. PE plates do not have ceramic layers and ergo do not need crack arrestors. Can space shots together a lot tighter but not as tight as relatively quality steel or steel-PE hybrid.>Likely not but window shopping with wishful thinkingUnfortunately armor CONUS is very tripolar. Pistol, garden variety rifle (M193, M855, M80), or high threat rainy day. People disagree a lot on what high threat rainy day looks like.End of the day, people should have more than one pair of plates so you can switch based on the situation.
>Indeed, the RMA 1165 is somehow same weight as the Hesco 4601And as a side bar on this, I am accounting for RMA's stated +-0.125lb variance, which means the 1165 or 1155 can go up or down 0.125lb, so there on paper should be 1165s about matching the 4601 on areal density and also those going under. If you refer to Gilliam's 1635 test reports, you'll see plates heavier even by a tenth of a pound have reduced BFD, going from around 40mm BFS to mid thirties. It's physics. Every bit counts. When plates are chasing weight and not tested reliability then this variance becomes a problem.Not always... it's usually foam on the wear face (acting as a built in trauma pad) that reduces BFD numbers on lab reports. Lots of things can make .1 or .2 differences on a layup. The amount of foam or crack arrestor thickness being 2. Adding 5mm of foam to a plate with good V50 numbers can reduce BFD 5-8mm. Add 10mm foam and you will be in the 20s.
>>65573395Yeah the Gilliam rf1 in either flavor is tempting. I may bite. Need to work up an offer but have been involved elsewhere of the late. This is what sells the icw in my opinion especially if paired with the appropriate soft armor format (say like a vest over a plate insert). Less is more approach. Again, my wishful thinking for a discounted free lunch: do we have any Gilliam tier (price point) pe plates that go above rf1?
>>65573383>Thinner ceramic strike faces are used at 99.7% with good V50sRight, but the 1635 is 1.082" thick per the Energetic 4/16/26 report, so the final product thickness is still up there with finished product.>Some of those test reports show 2950 fps M2APSo 40ft/s above NIJ spec? That's it? My 2230s were tested by Safariland as follows:>“During NIJ Compliance testing for V50 which requires 12 impacts of the .30 M2-AP, the independent lab didn’t get any penetrations even with velocities in excess of 600 ft/s above the top velocity of the Type IV Reference Velocity range for NIJ-06 Compliance Testing.”I'll give the 1635 that it outperforms the Hesco 4403 there, going off Buff's testing, but that's comparing PE to fiberglass backers.>Foam added to the plate perimeter...NIJ technically permits up to 50mm foam under NIJ 0101.06 7.6.1. I do not believe this changed with 0101.07.I agree on all counts with your assessment of the drop protection and crack arrestor chicanery.>.5 pounds is a differenceSame weight difference as between an ESAPI and XSAPI.>Retail costs for SiC plates versus alumina can be substantially higher.Of course, hence why the 4601 is so expensive versus the 4403 and 4K10.>Most of the time, not worth the cost differenceEh, the 4601 does objectively outperform the 1635 based on all the data I've seen. Yeah, it's twice the price and some, but you get what you get.>99%+ of what you will see on the street is non-tungsten stuffWhich begs the question as to why Gilliam has an 8002, DocGKR specifically called IV stupid because it's outdated, and Adept has the Colossus, doesn't it?>If you want to lug around 8.4 pound plates all dayColossus will get you there at 7.1lb true 10x12.>Swiss P AP28 year old penetrator, it doesn't hold a candle to modern stuff. See 7N37.>The flexibility in Chinese PE...Which Militech does use to their advantage!>industry connection?I'm an armor autist? Wilson? That you?
>>65573419>it's usually foam on the wear faceIndeed, but this is RMA we're talking here, the same company that thinks it's okay to send Buffman plates 10oz heavier than advertised (RMA 1192s) and pass that off as a variance. I have concerns with their 0.125lb variance because in theory it means either:1. The plates are all over the place sizing wise2. The thickness of materials is not consistent (which can cause issues).>or crack arrestor thickness being 2I do think this is why Anon's 1155 in >>65573372 shit the bed horribly but Buff's 0.2lb heavier 1155s did a lot better.>Add 10mm foam and you will be in the 20s.Have you worked with Adept's Ivoryguard foam at all? The Emperor posts unconditioned M2AP stoppage in the 20s and comes in at 4.6lb true 10x12, which is really nice, but I have concerns about multi-hit given the test report shows none. Will have to see Buff's results.
>>65573435>do we have any Gilliam tier (price point) pe plates that go above rf1?Not at Gilliam's pricing. All-PE plates that meet RF2 are exceptionally rare. There is the plate from Combat Systems which is about 4lb and very expensive, there is a prototype from Stealth Armor that never released, there's the LTC 24855 which is credential-blocked to hell, there's a BR3+ all-PE Granit plate from Tehinkom which is good for M855 allegedly, there's a very old plate called the DT855 from ~2009 which was all-PE but weighed 5.2lb. None of these are cheap because an all-PE M855 stopper needs the very best grades of PE to come in at a reasonable weight. The DT855's 5.2lb mark was not reasonable for a plate that would get smoked by M855A1 regardless, because the LTC 19513 stops M855A1 cold with sub-20mm BFD and weighs the same, but SAPI M.The most tempting option is probably the LTC 24855, but very little is known about it and the M855 claim is pure conjecture. It's worth keeping in mind ceramics like the Hesco 3810 can do M855A1 at reduced velocity, but as seen with Buff's youtube tests there is a HUGE gap in anti-PE performance between M855 and M855A1 (see LON-III-P test). Ergo all-PE M855 stoppers will get smoked by A1 easy.
what ever happened to the Blackbeard 3+ plates? were they ball knowledge?
>>65573482The story is debated. The one I've heard is that they were assembled from Point Blank components for a failed GEN-5B USSOCOM Tactical Stand Alone, Overt contestant which lost to the LTC 28570 - the LTC 28595's successor. Yes, the 28570 won for good reason. 4.6lb SAPI M / 4.39lb Swimmer standalone B-32 API / 2x 7.62x39mm BZ API protection is no joke. Some people dispute this story.>were they ball knowledge?Certainly better ball knowledge than the Ceradyne Defender 275s people thought were 4.4lb Level IVs but were really strict no-drop B-32 API plates with nominal sizing.I think maybe some people were confusing the D275 with the Ceradyne "SAEC."
>>65573482But long story short, the components are all used up and the plate is now discontinued into the void, joining other ball knowledge plates like the PPI 2518.
>>65573474Fair enough and doesn’t make me down as much on the rf1’s in this case as they are available, obtainable, and decently affordable. How low do you think we could go offer wise for a set? $250? They are already discounted and I’m not sure how much Gilliam will play ball. Also, I’m assuming this goes for mostly pe. What about when it comes to hybrids?
>>65573651I'm pretty sure Mr. Gilliam was here a few hours ago if you want to ask him directly.>How low do you think we could go offer wise for a set? $250?Yeah that's a fair price. >not sure how much Gilliam will play ballYou're telegraphing you do want the plates quite a lot, so he might counter high. I'm negotiating with a guy for a IIIA shield right now for about that, actually.>Also, I’m assuming this goes for mostly pe. What about when it comes to hybrids?Depends on the plate. I don't think he'll take a lowball on the 8002s, since they're SiC face and ergo harder to break even on. Also the 1635s he's gotta be barely breaking even on as-is since that's good Bitossi 99.7% Alumina as already discussed in this book of a thread.I'd like to see Adept try their hand at doped Alumina for a budget Colossus. I know tungsten AP plates don't sell for shit but the headroom is nice.
>>65573681I got hesco and an Ali baba rep on the other line. I think it’s usually best practice not to offend the party making your ballistic protection with low offers, but that could just be me. >hybridsI phrased that poorly in hindsight. I was more meaning of there were any hybrid pe/alumina/ceramic/other plates that may be worth looking at. In my head, maybe more drop resistant. Maybe. The mailman really do be beating on my packages
>>65573696>I think it’s usually best practice not to offend the party making your ballistic protection with low offersIt's his reputation and his ass if the plate doesn't do its job or otherwise has poor workmanship. It only takes one fuckup to ruin an armor company. The industry is very reputation oriented because the vast majority of armor is never tested and ergo you have no way of knowing your stuff works unless you destroy it. Ergo rep is the only thing many guys have to go off of.It would serve Gilliam well to ship the 1635 off to Buffman immediately. It would end the 1165 GEN2 if it did well there and also obtained NIJ cert.>I was more meaning of there were any hybrid pe/alumina/ceramic/other plates that may be worth looking at. In my head, maybe more drop resistant. Maybe. The mailman really do be beating on my packagesIf you need an alternative to all-PE which is still drop immune, you have to turn to steel-PE or titanium-PE hybrid plates. For the former, Buffalo Gamechanger or AMI TAC3S family. Latter is Adept Mantis G1 / G2 and their in-development Titanium-PE RF3 "Super Mantis."These hybrid plates are pretty big money though. I like the Mantis G2 but it's nearly PBZSA levels of scratch. The M855A1 + M80, high multi hit, total drop immunity, and also standoff .50 BMG FMJ capabilities are all neat.
>>65573727Fair enough. Mr. Gilliam, let’s strike up a deal. >hybridsYou weren’t lying. Those do look nice but cost a pretty penny as well. I do like the idea of titanium pe hybrids. >next stepsI think I’ll need to look at carriers next. The slickster is automatically disqualified. Taking recommendations as a point of reference but be warned. I might have to go to the casino out of town to get one
>>65573920>>65573383You two, make a deal
Alright, so it's been several days since I reached out to both Apex and Highcoom about the 4S20M and 3S22M. Nada from either.What is with armor companies fumbling the release of new flagship plates? Adept marketed the Emperor with a bag of chips and the Mantis' page still 404s and has since August. Now Highcom can't get their supposed Hesco 4800 killer out the door? I'm thinking either suppy chain issue or they're credential blocking.
>>65574038Because you're a nobody. You do not represent even a rounding error in their profits. The time it would take to respond to you, would not be worth the profit gained.
>>65574081Yet you decided to take the time to respond. Incredible.
>>65574081Highcom is a penny stock and Apex is just about shitlisted on every forum because of shipping delays, lol. You overestimate the actual size of these companies.Little funny that Hesco and Safariland, two actual heavyweights, got back to me in a jiffy but these two chucklenuts are unresponsive.
>>65574097I am a benevolent poster. Even you are important to me.
>>65574183Can you run to 7-Eleven and pick me up a half gallon of milk and a cookie?
Gilliam what the hell happened to the 9969 man
>>65573727You could always go the extreme /pfg/ steel-PE hybrid route and slap a $50 AR500 IIIA on top of a PE III. Even cheaper if you can still source a surplus Italian pasta plate, probably cost you like $100 tops per facing. Downside is that combo is ridiculously thick and like 8-9 lbs for effectively III+/RF2 lite because while the AR500 plate will almost certainly disrupt M855 out of the usual 8" ARPs and 14.5"/16" M4geries (the usual ghetto hood specials) enough for the pasta III to stop it, it might have a real problem at NIJ reference velocity, so if someone brings the 20" HBAR out you're in real trouble. I save that combo for my emergency/loaner rig.OR you could buy a Highcom AR1000 III plate (0101.06 NIJ certified!) for like $80-90 a pop since they're discontinued and vendors are clearance pricing them out. Not sure if it's got any realistic M855 protection but it's definitely got the cool NIJ logo on it.
>>65573963From the Gilliam
>>65574264Niiice. If Gilliam's garage gets a plate certified while RMA continues to stall for months, RMA will suffer generational aura loss.Sounds like the 8002s are all sold. Farewell, poorfag XSAPI+ plate. I'm guessing the 9969 will reappear since it shares a strike face with the Adept Archon and they just made a new version of that.>>65574260The AR1000 will do M855 easy. Green tip does not really challenge Level III steel plates.
New shit alert. Adept's Archon Mk. II's test reports are now on their site. $588 a plate, 5.2lb for a 9.75x11.75 not-10x12. RF3. On the bottom is the older Mk. I Archon for comparison. Major weight reduction from Mk. I, but still not true 10x12, multi-hit is questionable because there's only one shot in each report, and no drop test.Granted the Mk. I plate does okay in Buffman's testing, but the multi-hit is still questionable. Penetrating M993 hit at 2,854ft/s, three 5.56, then gets blown through by M2AP at 2,890ft/s close-ish to the M993. The whole "oh it stops 7N39 / M995 / AP4" thing is illusory because typical good quality SiC / Alumina IVs can already handle those threats. Even the 4SAS4 could do M995 / AP4. It's the boron carbide IVs that get sketchy on it because of a specific failure mechanism called amorphization. The Archon Mk. II uses a novel B4C-SiC-TiB2 ceramic and is able to push boron carbide weight with passable performance versus SCHV tungsten threats.It's probably important to note here that 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm hits fracture significantly greater areas of ceramic than 5.56. It's likely the Archon does not have the raw multi-hit performance of a 4601, Protech 9812-R1, Tencate CXP-800 SA, etc. However, it's lighter. 5.4lb if true 10x12, but it's somewhat undersized.
the nfa is now cooked. We can now all make like a2grip and run breaching shotguns, sans stamp
>>65574260What was that cheapish plate that required the oddly specific expensive backer? I almost want to say it was PE but could have been ceramic. Wondering if that + Gilliam backers could work. I think it’s still rf1 but now I’m curious>>65574738My .458 mk18 can now become a reality
>>65574821>What was that cheapish plate that required the oddly specific expensive backer?The Protech X-CAL LP. Good for ONE 7.62x51mm M80 thru 7.62x39mm BZ API (so M855, M193, MSC are covered) with the correct soft armor.>Wondering if that + Gilliam backers could work.Probably not. If you run it with random soft armor it puts up really crappy BFD vs M80 (over 50mm). At over 5lb a plate, sans required soft, it's a crap option unless it's your only option.>My .458 mk18 can now become a realityHmm, this does have major implications for ARPs and short barrel shotguns (turkshit ahoy!) where state law doesn't apply.With HICAR continuing development, we may soon enter a new era of SUPER ARPs on the streetz.
>>65574264The Gilliam is teasing a new plate on their site, marked up for testing. On the same plate:1. Two M993 (tungsten core 7.62x51mm, XSAPI threat)2. Two M2AP3. Two M80A1My assumption is that this is the 8002's monolithic replacement. If it stops all that, comes in under $800/set, and isn't obnoxiously heavy (keep it below 8.3lb, RMA 1155 weight) it'll lock the "budget XSAPI" market.
LTC 21635 or hesco 4403MC?
>>655749894403MC. The 26135 has no drop protection and is only rated under NIJ 0101.04. Additionally, it's only good for 1x BZ API vs the 4403MC's three with NIJ spacing, so the 4403 has a multi hit / shot spacing advantage.The 4403MC is heavier, but more stout overall. Also LTC's 10x12s are not true to size.
>>65575004Monica
>>65575004What if I was able to buy a pair of the LTC 26135's for $300 + ship?
>>65575056Then it's your call. Active NIJ cert + drop pro + better sizing + better multi hit and overall performance on the 4403MC, or a lighter, $180/set cheaper plate with the 26135. I should reiterate that if the mailman is a dick and/or the plates are underpacked, the 26135s can be compromised on their way to you. It's a similar situation to the 4SAS4s if you remember those.Also the 26135s are only rated for M2AP up to 2,880ft/s when pristine. The 4403s will do up to 2,910ft/s after being dropped twice from four feet onto concrete with a 10lb weight on the back, plus other conditioning.I'd personally do the 4403MCs just because the 26135 isn't normally that cheap and it sounds like somebody is trying to offload them. My personal IVs are Protech 2230s, which mog either of those in almost every way, but are now very hard to find second hand.
>>65574292Interesting. What's the free lunch on the AR1000 then? Can't be weight since we already know it's steel and therefore obnoxiously heavy. Is it somehow not full RF2 spec, or is it the nominal sizing?>>65574821>>65574883Wonder if the X-CUH guy will give discounts if you buy in bulk. Think I could armor a small safe room with them?
>>65575063Alright I'm sold on the 4403. Thank you
>>65575082No problem. One last note, the 2,910ft/s M2AP rating on the 4403 should be treated as a hard limit. If you are concerned with M2AP above NIJ spec you'll want a different plate. If that's not a concern then the 4403MC is all good.>>65575080>Interesting. What's the free lunch on the AR1000 then? Can't be weight since we already know it's steel and therefore obnoxiously heavy. Is it somehow not full RF2 spec, or is it the nominal sizing?You're correct on the nominal sizing. With a 60 mil spall coating, it is 7.6lb SAPI Medium, 6.6lb SAPI Small, or 6.4lb "10x12". This means the 10x12 is likely only 9x11 with bottom corners cut, just like the 3S15M. Rule of thumb, if the 10x12 is lighter then the SAPI S, then it's nominally sized to hell. Also, it's single curve. The M193 defeat is fine at 3,250ft/s +-50.7.6lb for a single curve plate that can't even officially do M855A1 is rough.>Wonder if the X-CUH guy will give discounts if you buy in bulk. Think I could armor a small safe room with them?Hopefully he would on the $15 per plate shipping. Paying an X-CAL LP to ship two X-CAL LPs is silly. You could armor a room with them. Not sure it would work great but it could be done.He'll probably be firm on the $30 a plate, because he has sold over half his inventory already. Side bar, I doubt he's the only guy selling. Given the numbers, I'd reckon that if plates were to ever show up as "opfor" the X-Cuh LP would be one of them.
Does Jinnywoo always take this long to ship shit out? Anyone have experience buying from them?
>>65575191I own one of their IIIA skirts. Bought back in 2025. Took almost two weeks between my order and it shipping, which actually isn't that bad. Some people have been waiting on plates from Apex for months.
>>65575202Ahh good to know thanks for the info brotha
>>65575218Yep. Follow up with them if nothing's happening in a week. One thing with Jinwudun is that their armor is seeing use with Russians, so there's probably a lot of guys ahead of you and military usually gets priority.
I have a feeling /gq/ has contributed to a sizable amount of jinnywoo and Gilliam sales
Has anyone had direct experience with that Tasmanian tiger vest that’s in the Infographs? I like the flc layout but every picture I can find of it has the plates sitting way low
>>65575258I know there's at least two /k/ommandos with Gilliam 1635s and one with GARMS 1s. There's one, maybe two with Jinwudun skirts. I usually tell people to wave off from Jinwudun's plates and helmets because they're second division even by Chinese standards, but the soft is good and priced well. They also do custom sizing, so if you need plates in a weird size (Medium-Long, SAPI XXL, etc), ask em.I am debating on picking up one of Jinwudun's new IIIA ballistic visors with the silicone riot seal. They also now have Level IV shields available, but you have to ask for them. Shipping from China to CONUS is prolly a bitch and JWD might not cover customs.
>>65575274have one, but heavily modified. The shoulder straps and cummurbund are both adjustable and need a lot of tweaking so the plate ride height is correct.It's a bitch to zip when fully loaded. i just use the buckles.
>>65575100Sounds about right. That said the Italian plates are interesting because some have 0101.03 labeling of some kind. Not sure if they were ever NIJ certified or not; I've heard some were American made by big names in the armor business (Protech? Tencate?) but were white-labeled for sale to Italy so the label is kinda vague.
>>65575320There used to be an archived 0101.03 compliant product list on the interwebs. Could be worth a wayback machine hunt. If the NIJ Mark is on the label then they were certified. If not, they weren't.>were American made by big names in the armor business (Protech? Tencate?) but were white-labeled for sale to Italy so the label is kinda vague.Probably would have been Tencate if anybody, they were around by the late 1980s and are actually European, they're dutch, so it checks out.Considering Tencate is current industry top dog now that Ceradyne is dead, I do wonder both what their current top end is like and what their other 1990s-era stuff was like, too, besides the Italian pasta plates. They had flexible M993-rated plates (CeraFlex PL-7300) you could bend in half before 2005 (totally mogging FRAS), not to mention LIBA 15-20 hit Level IVs.
Speaking of the NIJ Mark, DOJ just won its suit against defunct ass Shotstop for fraudulently placing the Mark on their shitty Chinese not-certified plates, specifically the GT2 and the IVs.https://www.ojp.gov/news/news-release/illegal-use-national-institute-justice-body-armor-trademark-results-1-million-civilGuess that's a wrap on that action. Now we wait to see what happens with RMA's buffalo shooting lawsuit and Apex Armor Solutions' rape case.
>>65575352Yeah, no NIJ seal. Just something in Italian about 0101.03 that I can't decipher. I did hear specifically that an American manufacturer was one of the contractors involved, so that was alongside any produced by Tencate. That said, someone on Youtube recently tested the Italian pasta plates and found even a beat to shit pasta neck protector acted as III+ "lite" (M855 from a 16" barrel at like maybe eight yards) when backed by soft IIIA. Instead of the AR500 IIIAs, I might be able to slap some Jinnywu or Botach IIIA softs behind mine and it'll act as ersatz III+ against M4gery-length M855. Food for thought. Here's the vid:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrmeNtNjpNc
>>65575413That's consistent with what that anon said a few months back about the similarly all-PE Protech 2113MCs. Back them with IIIA and they stop M855 better than one might expect.Goes to show that there is merit to running soft armor behind standalone armor. Won't promote IIIs to IVs but it might bail you out against somewhat out of spec threats. There is a distinction between M855 that beats most PE at full velocity and an actual silver bullet like M995 which goes through PE like air.Given all-PE RF2 plates do exist, I'm curious as to what a hypothetical RF2 version of the RF1, 1.8lb 10x12 Hesco 3800-RF1 would weigh. Rough math says 3.3lb, but it'd be an expensive as hell plate. A lot more than the 3.4lb Hesco 3811, and with much worse odds against M855A1 to boot, but better multi hit, total drop protection, and better shot spacing.
>>65575434Slap some Botach IIIA behind a Hesco RF1 and we can find out! Also I wonder if that works in reverse, like if I wear the AR500 IIIAs behind the pasta plates it'll act like shitty-but-functional III+.
>>65575315Many-thanks. I’m eyeing it, but not sure yet. I do like that it’s a vest and not another overpriced carrier.
What in the world is going on over here? I was told that I should come over and answer some questions. Keep in mind that we are right in the middle of an NIJ ITT testing process and my answers may need to be limited for several more weeks.
>>65566395is that an m4a1 or a model 727?
>>65567636the 0.5mm m-pact gloves are pretty tactile imo
>>65575568I'd be leery about backing the 3801 only because Hesco generally builds their stuff to pass requirements by a hair but Protech / Tencate build with headroom, generally.>like if I wear the AR500 IIIAs behind the pasta plates it'll act like shitty-but-functional III+.Then the AR500 will act as a BFD reducer. It should really go in front, otherwise it's kinda a waste of weight.>>65575603I'm in the process of doing some modifications to mine. will post a pic when I'm done. Got side plates, deltoids, neck IIIA with a pasta plate attached, and MSAPs on the deltoids so I have more or less Level IV shoulders.Trying to figure a way to do forearms which isn't jank.>>65576110Welcome. Has the plate pictured in >>65574948 been tested yet? How much does it weigh / cost?Also, why'd the 9969 get discontinued and why was the final version only about 5.3lb? That's light for a SiC-TiB2 plate.
New shit alert. Zennison has dropped a new universal helmet tail, IIIA.https://zennison.com/product/nij-level-iiia-ballistic-neck-guard-for-pasgt-mich-fast-helmets/
>>65576171>pictured plate tested?This was an R&D plate, SiC at 7 pounds that can stop M993. We have not pursued it because of other work involving the ITT. I am not sure how much you want me to comment on this --- but SiC plates with tungsten stopping power greatly benefit IMHO from ceramic tile arrays. 50mm is best - 30mm is getting small and influences performance although there are examples of quality at the 30mm range. A monolithic won't beat an edge to edge array in multi-hit capacity IF it's built correct and IF you have the right adhesive (the genesis of thermally activated ARMORFILM).> 9969?We intended to NIJ ITT that design but late stage developments between Adept (the supplier) and our company created concerns for us. Nothing negative --- business concerns about market share drove some of the discussions. I have an NDA with Adept, so can't reveal the details.It was a 9mm SiC TiB2 tile. Through the years, we have accumulated a lot of ballistic testing data and are using AI to associate bullet grain, velocity, materials stacks and thicknesses, etc. into a completed database. Those relationships give us R&D design concepts (as a starting point). The 9969 started slightly heavier only because we started building that model with a pretty thick crack arrestor (to control airborne ceramic fragmentation in front of the strike face). All of our testing has shown that using a thick arrestor (some incorrectly refer to this as a "spall plate") ---results in HIGHER BFDs (14%-18%) in the last series. We replaced the crack arrestor plate with high tenacity PE sheeting and foam and dropped the plate weight pretty substantially.SiC is quite brittle... but the monolithic shapes pretty much shatter more so than alumina. Given that we have to "fund the future", we must make models that have economic viability at larger scale - meaning LE and high performance alumina markets.
>>65576171I look forward to seeing your progress. Now, onto sending Gilliam a trade offer.
>>65576304Thanks for the writeup. That makes sense. The 9969 and this 7lb R&D plate would effectively eat into the market share of the Adept Archon and Adept Colossus respectively. Couple questions if you don't mind:1. My only concern with the 9969 is that the final version was comparable in weight to Adept's newer Mk. II Archon using a B-C-Si-Ti "Quatroid" ceramic, but used SiC-TiB2, which is supposed to be inferior to the new stuff. Thus, the areal density seems low and that gives rise to some hesitation. If it still worked out in the labs then I can't argue with lab results. I haven't seen a lab report for the 9969 lighter than about 6lb. Is there one available? 2. On another note, a Chinese firm called "EDUN" has recently begun selling a 1.44" thick, 8.8lb 10x12" monolithic SiC+PE plate rated for a single strike of 12.7x108mm B-32 API at 50 meters, about $1k a set. However, it is difficult to buy CONUS and it's total mystery meat. Given that Adept has not brought the .50 BMG AP rated 9.25lb / 1.488" thick Colossus Heavy to market after several years, are there any plans for a comparable plate down the road, or are you totally firm on the high-performance Alumina market? I understand it would be a niche product, but as per Dr. Gary K Roberts, there is a market especially in LE for a plate which addresses truly modern AP threats. The Colossus runs out of gas against 7.62x54 7N37. 7N37 rated plates need massive standoff versus 12.7x108mm B-32 API for multiple reasons, so a plate rated for 12.7mm AP would thus control the entire "top end" of the market and proxy lesser AP all the way down. Russia's FORT has shown 9lb plates are tolerable in specific circumstances. I'm aware you prefer a tile array for heavy duty applications but that'd probably run way too heavy at this level.3. Last question for now. I spoke with Buffman and he wanted to test some of your plates about a year ago, but he said you haven't gotten back to him. Are there plans to send him models?
>>65576304
>>65576349> The 9969 had a heavy crack arrestor and it was removed. The crack arrestor without adhesive was .5 pounds. The net gain on the arrestor by removing it was about 8 ounces. This was the reason for the weight change. Keep in mind that there are only EIGHT 9969s in the total market and only 4 with the new, thinner crack arrestor. Ballistic testing showed performance improvements WITHOUT the crack arrestor. Thick crack arrestors trap ballistic energy and the energy still pushes out through the backing material. Releasing the energy non-constricted via the strike face (you will see ceramic fragmentation out the front) actually serves a viable purpose in plate design. That allows energy to release (equal and opposite) and moderate force transfer to the PE material in the backer. I personally did not see a lot of benefit from the SiC/TiB2 combination versus straight up SiC (which is a little lighter anyway). But, Jake is a smart guy - and he can probably provide the data to support it. Let me answer you other questions in a sep post. Keep in mind that some data cannot be released because of our NDA with Adept.
>>65576381I am getting low on the RF1s.... $250 + free marketing or $250 worth of marketing? If $250 + then send me an email - I'll take it. Want us to cut the plates full SAPI 10" x 12" or something else? If you have measurements in mind just send them to me.
>>65576402Cash + praise, my dude. Cash + praise. Email sent. Full SAPI 10x12 is fine. I’ll need 48 hours notice on the Philly tour voucher.
>>65576349Re 2. We can build anything --- that's how we were born and I think that's probably why we change specs/models so often. We will get a special order for something and then turn it into a model to sell the entire batch of materials that we purchased. If demand is slow, then the viability of additional batch purchases wanes and the model dies. My take: Two options here: 1. SiC monolithic or 2. SiC array. Simple and best performing without the complicated amalgams, etc. SiC mono will be lighter and thinner. SiC array will be higher performing, thicker and heavier. Building an array plate is not easy and the adhesives are what really makes or breaks the plate (along with a malleable PE). I am not sure about your heavy request but if you are planning resistance to a SINGLE shot - then monolithic is the way to go. Basic rule is to use a min ceramic thickness equal to the caliber (5.56, 7.62, etc.) For 12.7mm, you would want to start with testing at 13mm with about a 15mm thick PE material behind it. Would probably be in the 9 pound range. I have no idea if that combo would work but that would be starting point for array or mono thickness.The 8002 used an 11mm tile. The test reports on the 8002 (and this is the case most of the time) are limited to 2 shots on the CROWN. Projectiles on the CROWN are on the plates' weakest points and no need to completely pulverize your ceramic --- there's nothing left to look at. Now to your next question....and no I am not against building one or more of these in the future but it would probably take 90 days to get the material.
>>65575413Here's a pic of the Ceraflex PL-7300 mentioned in >>65575352 by the way, 7lb ICW IIIA, so realistically eight pounds for multi-hit M993 / M995 protection.For 2004 this isn't bad at all. It more or less is still some of the most advanced flexible rifle armor ever made. Also this is the only picture of any Ceraflex plate on the internet, anywhere. I've looked.> Ceraflex, manufactured by Ares Composites (Tencate subsidiary) uses a Ceramic matrix bonded on flexible aramide pre-pregnated backplane to offer shaping flexibility while retaining the high ballistic performance of ceramics. Monolithic ceramic plates can be shaped into curved shapes by complex pressing process, which reduce protection level. Therefore, these tiles have inherent limitation as to the curvature they can provide. Due to its matrix design, Ceraflex does not have this limitation and retains effective protection against Level III multiple 5.56 and 7.62mm threats over the entire area. According to the manufacturer, when configured for level IV protection, the tile can stop AP threats including modern ammunition with tungsten carbide core. Due to the homogeneous (seamless) matrix composition, Ceraflex can stop a wider ammunition range than ceramic tiles at 10 – 30% of the weight of comparable monolithic ceramic tiles.Blackwater used III/IV dual-rated Ceraflex back in the early mid 00s as well. The PL-7300 AFAIK was the top shelf model above those.>>65576389Night and day better response than what I got from RMA when I pressed about their weight savings. Thanks for the info!>>65576425Finally, trash sniper acquires plates!
>>65576349Buffman: I like watching Buffman videos. Nothing at all against him or his mission. There are some elements in his videos that I don't agree with from a build standpoint but that doesn't mean I dislike him - far ffrom it. Re our "beef" on Reddit --- totally overblown. I was trying to explain something, ran over the post limit (none of this is easy to FULLY explain) and was tagged by the moderator. Kicked off for life... anyway I am rarely on message boards like this. I would test with Buffman but I speak to guys that send plates to him and he was going to charge me many times what he quoted others. I am sure he would treat us objectively and fairly (I sincerely mean this)... and we will test with him at some point I am sure (once we work out the economics). I want him to make money but I felt at the time that it wasn't a good deal for us. This is my second career, I'm not in a hurry to sell a million plates... want to do a good job, be transparent and helpful. I'm not out to build a massive armor company. I've had 100+ employees before (I started Chesapeake Bay Helicopters in 1998 and reached its peak when I sold it in 2014). I am OK with our business as it takes on additional designs, NIJ ITT, LE focus, etc. But, I'm not in a rush to put my armor on Buffman's channel for economic benefit. I feel we should support those that we "mostly" agree with, that have mutual respect for one another and can find common ground.
>>65576466Very interesting, thank you again. I might reach out with a build request for this. Personally waiting on UHMWPE / trauma foam to improve so the final weight is lower. If it's a go, I'll reach out by email and we can talk shop that way re firm details.>>65576509>he was going to charge me many times what he quoted othersHuh, he said you went silent after he gave you the "terms and conditions." I was not aware at all he charges manufacturers to test their plates. I figured he just inevitably made his ammo / testing money back using the affiliate links.
>>65576572My last communication with Matt was Sept last year. We spoke internally about his fee and decided that it was too high --- and knowing it was much higher than proposed to others, we didn't understand what the higher fee meant. That's his business (that's why I'm not showing it here) and he can charge what we wants to (I don't blame him).Re the monster plate... just the word of an old man and experience in this business --- building something great doesn't mean you can sell it. It's important to focus in this business and move from goal to goal because you can spend tens of thousands in R&D, testing. How many people would buy a plate like that? It took us a year to sell 10 sets of 8002s. It looks cool and powerful --- but sales numbers don't always accompany great designs... Although I am old, sometimes cranky and my marketing skills are not inline with the younger generation.I have to leave for a bit but I will stop back in from time to time and answer questions about Gilliam Arms. You can reach out to me via the site, we can talk on the phone, etc. Running low on most everything I have... I still have about 100 Model 1635 strike faces to move, low on 0425 (lots of headroom on those performance wise) and very low on RF1, 6001, 6002. The goal behind this push is to clear our ceramic stock in preparation for the ITT results and subsequent rollout of 4-5 sizes of NIJ certified armor as a next step. Then, we may take on a 6001 or 6002 cert but using an SiC tile. A tungsten resistant RF3 is also another choice but it would need to involve ceramic supply from a company that can offer SAPI sizing --- not random approximations. Take care and see you later - WG
>>65576490First of many, I’m sure. Those hg2 panels sure are tempting… now to find a carrier and some pads. Go birds! Also, I don’t have to worry about the mailman with these.
>>65576572FOAM: Try Jake's Ivoryguard. It's some very effective foam. I've built several plates with it with good results. Ask him about thermal rating. Seems to work better on the strike face than wear face -- although on the wear face it has matched or exceeded other foams we have tested.
>>65576640Thanks for the info and taking the time for the Q&A, that provided great insight. I'm surprised it took a year to sell twenty 8002s. I suppose the market for plates north of RF3 isn't really there, temporary hype about the Colossus back in 22-23 aside. Would explain why Adept has the Colossus on the backburner and is now trying to push the lighter, considerably weaker Archon and Emperor, the latter of which I have in writing won't even reliably do tungsten 5.56.My rationale for the "Monster" is that it would provide almost absolute CONUS protection. That's about it. A IV will get you there already except if it's a REALLY bad day, so the proposed plate would definitely still be niche. I see why Adept isn't selling the Colossus Heavy.
>>65576772Of course, I am happy to talk about our products or the industry in general, if it's helpful. I think a good NIJ product would be a SiC monolithic that can stop M993 reliably. But, that would require the armor manufacturer to offer SAPI-similar sizes that could be included as part of an ITT (Initial Type Test). No one wants to bother with an ITT without the additional sizes (approved at the time of TIMS application approval, again on successful completion of the lab testing (ITT) and then must be entered in FIT (random sample program). Obtaining very high quality SiC from overseas (Europe, China) is not a problem - but, Chinese military export laws won't allow export of Chinese monolithics. If a supplier is caught selling those to the US, there could be severe penalties. If you want to build custom for specific scenarios and you don't need NIJ cert - then you can do it with 50mm tiles - and it would be very effective. Probably 10mm SiC and 12mm PE backing to start with 5mm Ivoryguard strike and 5mm IG wear face will get you going in the right direction. Use our armorfilm to bond it. The armor business is really tough... and the only way to make it viable over the long term is to build a niche and certify eventually. Otherwise, you learn a lot - but you burn through R&D cash. Talk to you later. WG
>>65576336Also as a side note, the Tasmanian Tiger TT can fit 2230s at 1.2" thick and IIIA soft 10x12s behind them, so it can do a plate up to about 1.45" thick. I don't think it will fit ~1.5" thick .50 AP rated plates.That enables hypothetical RF2 PEs using cheaper grades of PE (like PRIME's discontinued 1.3" thick PE plate) or plates north of the Colossus in protection for emergency situations.
>>65576843Good to know, thanks. Plate thickness was the concern with backers and the like. I do like the flc like getup and it is cheaper than other dedicated carriers. We’ll see. The zip seems to be the same zip flc issue. I much prefer the older clip flc models.
Before I go - here is what would be FUN. Get Adept to agree to a one-on-one match-up between the 8002 and the Colossus. I can donate one but for weights sake, I will not include the heavy crack arrestor and will trim the strike face down to match the Colossus. Takers? We can put an end to the mosaic versus monolithic debate --- or at least provide some evidence to solving it. Shot placement has to be fair and roughly equivalent for it to matter. If we lose to the Colossus --- so what? We get good data.
>>65576942Do it. Also, “polyvinyl alcohol (PVA) gel.” Think about it.
>>65576171Wonder why they'd work as a BFD reducer but not catch slow M855 like soft IIIA does. Properties of steel, I guess? Either way I bought some Botach Discreets to build pasta plate loaner rigs for family. Think they will be proper RF1 or III+ lite if I slap some cheapass Chinesium soft IIIAs behind them? Wondering what the lowest domestic quote I can get for 2+ sets of that is... TacScorp?
I got a free holster from a buddy, but uh safarilands aren't really ment to mount to ALICE belts. Does anyone make an adapter to make that happen or should I just trim that 1/4 inch off the UBL it came with?
>>65576989Alice to Molle, probably. Or just do something normal. Idk cuh
What’s the opinion on these?Are they any good, how are they compared to an ESAPI, and are they worth purchasing?
>>65576989Use whatever is the more expensive in depth option. I promise you will never regret good work, but you will regret half assing something
>>65577073What, the Paracletes or the Protechs? I assume you're not asking about the handgun-only IMPAC-HTs.
>>65577092I’m asking about all of the above senpai; or really whatever botach has listed atm
>>65577119Botach copsurp is so appealing but risky af. You never know if the plates were abused to shit and you just can't see it because the department cleaned them up a little before trading them in. Hell, a few weeks ago there was a Botach surp plate with a literal bootprint on the front, literally stomped on by someone. Definitely a nonstarter.
>>65576975The steel would do the same job as the IIIA soft. I was just saying it's a waste of weight. IIIA steel plates are still several pounds. As a guy mentioned upthread, if it's BFD reduction you want, use foam in league with other materials. Otherwise, put steel in front.>>65577073ESAPI mogs without question. The 10800 is discussed in >>65571517. The 2115Gs are outdated Alumina-Fiberglass. I noticed they cut through the label on these, through the rear cover, and exposing the backer. Not liking that at all. The 2092s are the same way but are a somewhat better plate than the 2115Gs. The IMPAC-HTs are pistol plates designed as cheap throw-ins for patrol cops who don't want to commit to full rifle plates, or can go onto deltoid pockets with Protech / Safariland deltoid protectors. I run Ceradyne MSAPs in mine so I have IV on deltoids and IV sides, ergo IV for a good chunk of my 3 and 9.>>65577160Yeah, that was a 20 year old CPC TC4C in bad shape for $100. Allegedly Swiss P AP rated but the velocity is dicey.I see Botach still has some PPI 2518s in stock. That's an old model but put on a very good show in DocGKR's testing. 3x .30-06 M2AP and 3x 5.56x45mm SSA 70gr tungsten AP. Problem is it's old and has no drop pro. Also needs IIIA
Gilliams and Philly Trash Sniper linking up??Sneed it or chuck it?
>>65577215Gilliam is quickly making the meme, of them being the /gqbagpfgnvglarpg/ house brand, a reality.We got better taste than Reddit Made Armor, that's for sure.
>>65577195Thanks senpai desu!
>>65577253I fully respect their hustle and being this open to public discourse.Patriots!
>>65577254No problem. Just keep in mind even the oldest "true" ESAPIs are boron carbide ceramic, aramid backer. The very latest are B4C-SiC hybrid face, PE backer. You aren't gonna be able to match them with these budget 10-20 year old Alumina plates at all.
>>65577215Hell yeah. Go birds!
>>65577195I'm just trying to find creative uses for all the cheap lower-end/surp armor I bought either during the coof panic (when all the good stuff was sold out and there was legit fear we might actually NEED armor) or as workout weights. Honestly I'm out of storage space for new plates so I have to use what I've got since never sell only buy. Also, at my lowest tier I've got some UL 752 Level I 12x12s I can likely use to armor a car door or chair/seat back since they're only rated for 9mm at like 1100 fps tops. I can also slap those into an oversized carrier of some kind, or at absolute worst improvise duct tape straps for those as the most ghetto NIJ Level I/IIA-- tier vest possible.
What’s the go-to for trauma pads? Apologies if missed them.
>>65577270As said before, much better than RMA. Our guys ask RMA about their weight reductions, they dodge. I ask Gilliam about how the 9969 lost a shitload of weight, he pulls out the damn crack arrestor and shows us. >>65576389>>65577343I've been wearing one of the Chinese 4D CAPs behind my front 2230, actually super comfy. Will link in a few.
>>65577343My gf uses Stay Free for her trauma pads. Literally a bloody mess, even with still very traumatic.
Best sub gun stick mag chest rig? Straight 9mm 30s. Retro is cool.
>>65577406Bonus for fitting 50rnd straight sticks. But I doubt...
>>65577387Bless>>65577399Damn I had you down for Tampax>>65577406Type 85. No bueno for 50’s. It will take about 3-6 weeks unless you can find a stateside source. Fits colt/uzi and mp5 mags fine.
>>65577399Unlike NIJ, these DO have a level 5!>>65577343Here are the pads. Make sure to price shop between Ebay, aliexpress, and taobao as usual with Chinese stuff. Prices, tariffs, etc fluctuate.https://www.ebay.com/itm/358560895584They attach via "elastic string" so you can get creative and attach them to pretty much any carrier. Otherwise, the trauma pad infographic is pic related. The thinner "normal" trauma pads provide only minor improvements. If you're serious about BFD reduction then you'll want to look at "CAPs" which go outside the platebag and are worn on the wear (between you and plate) side. They provide both ventilation and BFD support. The AA Shield inflatable CAPs are apparently quite good (and have Rusanon's rec, aside from maybe busting open if you take a dive), as are the Zoombangs. My 2230s are already trauma padded internally so I just use the 4Ds for ventilation, really, and they aren't a PITA to attach if you lack platebag velcro.
>>65577454>Type 85>$17 on Amazon Me likey. Anything less red commie?
>>65577343And this infographic has more info on "CAPs" - Climatic Amortization Panels, at the bottom. Note I need to update this with the now, by my count, five 7N37-rated plates on the Russian market.1. Tehinkom BR5+ (check)2. FORT ACP-M (check)3. Filin BR5+ SiC (new)4. Filin BR5+ Alumina (new)5. SShtf (butchering the name here) BR5+ (new)Interestingly you can buy the Tehinkom BR5+ on wildberries. They probably burnt up in the warehouse. Damn.
>>65577455Will do and ahh these. I remember these were a topic months ago. I’ve determined that I’m blind as I did check the repository prior but somehow missed this one. I figured might as well pair with the PE pl8 mainly for bfd reasoning
>>65577455>could have made molded-in superman absSo close.
>>65577474I have nothing else for you. The provided option works, is cheap, and available. Another option could be the Greek m1956 uzi pouches, but the attachment and harness scenario is slightly janky and I’m fairly certain the supply is mostly gone. >>65577476Some slight char won’t hurt
>>65577474>>65577508Correction: Thompson, not Uzi. Anything else is likely overpriced and not worth the coin. You may have some luck with pps pouches (if they exist) or just stuffing a standard ak cell bag. Remember, cheap is good!
>>65577484All good, the emporium is mostly organized but you have to doomscroll to know where everything is.>I remember these were a topic months agoMainly because our resident Russian Rusanon, who may have gone back to the front, was flexing the "superiority" of Russian armor plates and was engaged in a fierce debate with Neetmaster on whether the BR5+ Techinkom 6x 7N37-rated plate was legit, because it "out-protects" the Colossus which gets its ass beat by 7N37 and is 0-2 versus 7.92x57mm SmKH.Apparently it is legit, and the test report is good, but it requires itself, weighing 7.59lb for a Size 2, then Russian soft armor (add a pound and change), then add a CAP in order to make full rating. You're at ~9lb. Colossus is 2lb lighter and much thinner overall. Pic related are the newer, more advanced BR5+ plates from Fillin. The tan one is Aluminum Oxide like the Techinkom, black one is Silicon Carbide like the FORT ACP-M and should be lighter than the Techinkom accordingly. Both tile array.>I figured might as well pair with the PE pl8 mainly for bfd reasoningThere is a correlation between lower BFD and lower risk for behind armor blunt trauma, in other words, better odds you'll be able to continue fighting after the impact.Adept now has a "Bulletfoam" trauma pad / IIIA backer, but the page still 404s on their site. Worth investigating. Problem is that if you run it with Colossus your shit is 1.7" thick. I don't think a lot of carriers will fit that.>>65577485Ah well!
>>65577484And also here's one of the 4D pads in >>65577455 attached to the front of my TT vest. The phonebook of a plate inside the platebag is my front Protech 2230 at 1.2" thick multi-curve. Thick bastard, but lighter than a Hesco 4403 by 0.2lb, legitimately sized, meets III+IV requirements, and is tested to defeat M2AP over 3,510ft/s.
>>65577519>CorrectionYeah, Greek uzi search was a wash! Thx! I'll just airsoft pouch on FLC.
Guys I think I just figured out a way to make poverty UGVs or shield carriers.
>>65577682>defensiveJust mount a .50 cal. Fuck armor fgs.
>>65577702You can do both you know. Shield and a gun.
>>65577702And then the food delivery robots can be repurposed as remote control Goliath mines. Next gen urban warfare.
>>65576989The standard UBL should fit a 2.25 belt like an ALICE belt. You could just order one then for like 20 buck, they normally ship those pretty quick
>>65577526Thickness is a consideration with these pe plates. Maybe not as extreme but getting close. Will look into the backer. Also for emporium is the annoying app lockout but I suspect this only applies to mobile. I still like frisby plates. Maybe could be convinced later to switch over, but I’d have to get a new mailman first>>65577540How hefty are those? Noticeably messy underneath or Nyet?>>65577621Whatever works and if doesn’t, make it. Stick mags will fit just about anything really. You just need to watch the flap height if one exists. (Say ar mag pouch).
>>65577883>Maybe could be convinced later to switch over, but I’d have to get a new mailman firstIf you need absolute durability to drops and rough handling, see if Adept can get the price down on titanium first, or if there's an improvement with steel that enables a steel-PE M855A1 rated plate. You have time now that you have something.We're probably five years out from all-PE RF2 plates being regular business. I'd reckon M855A1-rated ones will exist at least experimentally by 2036. PE is the only ballistic armor material moving quickly lately. Ceramics are all incremental. Titanium is just throwing money at the problem. Steel is just making it harder and more brittle.>heftyNah, the 4D pads are super light. If you mean the 2230s, they have weight but the curvature is good. Multi curve beats single curve ergonomically most of the time. The 2230-1 cuts weight by 0.7lb and the 2240 is supposed to be even lighter.Side note, I just got a IIIA italian aramid neck protector, will update on how that is.
>>65577953Not the pasta AP98 Level III neck protector?
>>65576640Appreciate you bossman
Someone school me on radios. I live near the water so I'd like it to be waterproof, easy to use and integrate easily with Comtac 3s. I am sure there's a lot more I could learn but I'm just looking for something to get me started.
>>65577717>>65577719Fucking shits onna be invisible next. We are doomed.
>>65578718Nah, soft wrap-around. Kinda like the Bulletsafe IIIA Dutch Van der Linde-esque bandana but not that big. I think it's supposed to cover above the pasta but will have to see how it integrates when I get it.>>65578739I do like the 6001 / 6002 but SiC Gilliam is talking about. That could enable either a plate close to the Hesco 3811 (6001+) but much cheaper or a plate that almost approaches the Hesco SC3812 (6002+) on weight. Hesco is really taking the piss on the B4C SC3812 pricing at $3,500 a set. It's a really awesome plate on paper but that price sucks.Problem is sourcing good monolithic SiC tile at the RF3 level, so it sounds like it might be a minute before an M993 rated plate is back on the menu. IMO, the market does need something cheaper than Colossus and more reliable than used XSAPIs. I know the 8002 didn't sell well, but that's potentially just because it was over eight pounds and single curve. There's a threefold price difference between the old RMA 1155 and the 8002 which are about the same weight. The 8002 completely outclasses the RMA in ballistic performance but people, in the words of Buffman, want lighter, cheaper, stronger.The 7lb M993 plate in >>65574948 is very attractive, but again, sounds like there are logistics.>>65578779Adept Armor has an inactive patent on optical camo you know.
>>65577953>a1 PEI look forward to this. I have some ideas how to execute but going to familiarize myself with standards and requirements before attempting.>neck protectorLook forward to updates. Where does one source the spaghetti in this case? Go birds!
>>65579594>I look forward to this. I have some ideas how to execute but going to familiarize myself with standards and requirements before attempting.Similar to how M855-rated PE plates were available by 2010 but were 5.2lb, I think when M855-rated PE plates are mainstream, A1-rated ones will be around in the 5-6lb range. Too damn heavy for PE, but totally drop-proof unlike ceramic and ergo no X-ray requirement for LE / mil, making it appealing as a "dead nuts" .gov plate.The point is moot if M855A1+ and other HV ammo comes into play. A1+ out of a "Super ARP" can theoretically still challenge a lot of armor.>I look forward to this. I have some ideas how to execute but going to familiarize myself with standards and requirements before attempting.Found it on the internet as a one-off. Weird specialty product like my 22 year old 3TEX plate using specialty 3-dimensionally woven fiberglass to try and shore up glass backer performance vs aramid / PE. Pretty sure that's what they used in the Protech 2230-1's hybrid glass-PE backer.
>>65578769Disco-32 cables enable comtac compatibility for most cheap chinese radios that use two-pin kenwood. Only thing left is waterproofing and whether you want AES-256 and digital modes.
FYI - Armor Depot on reddit is selling bulk IIIA kevlar in various sizes on the cheap, from 6x6 to 6x8 / 5x7 to full plate backer sizes, backpack panels, and real big ones like 12x16s.https://www.ebay.com/itm/172151987848Interesting for DIY projects.
>>65580337>redditebay, my bad, lol
>>65580337Huh I've actually wanted to pick up side armor for awhile but never got around to it. I figure I can just get 2 of the 6x6 (or is 6x8 worth getting?) and sew nylon around it and that would work, no?
>>65581065If you're gonna go IIIA, might as well go 6x8. Coverage advantage. Sewing will work. You do need waterproofing.Just be aware of the usual issue that IIIA does nothing to rifle rounds.
>>65580266>Only thing left is waterproofing and whether you want AES-256 and digital modes.the waterproofing is specifically what he asked....
>>65581873he needs to answer whether he wants digital / aes-256 first
The aliexpress rizz cloak is now available in multicam. The DRIP.https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256809701716351.html>>65578769Budget?
Thinking might give that Tasmanian tiger vest a go. Afterall, how bad could it be? Any recommendations for an alternative?
Bought a pair of Botach Discreet PCs for my spare pasta plates. Planning to use them for family loaners in case shit goes sideways, and since their pouches are 11x14" they can handle most other commercially available plates in a pinch. Not great but hey if things go south and the local drunk retards start taking potshots with durr rifles loaded with grandpappys old JSPs we should have a leg up over most everyone else.
>selling plate carrier on EE>accept an offer>sends pp g&s>dude has zero feed back, zero posts and account is 4 months old>fuck>refund order, ask for non-reversible payment>"ok, no problem">never sent paymentI dodged a fucking bullet, didn't I?
>>65583417yeah arfcommer was gonna make a run
>>65583289I like mine, just be careful not to overload it. Aftermarket shoulder pads are good. If you want deltoids or side plates prepare for DIY work.Also the split setup makes a dangler wonky unless you either do two (which gaps the center if you're using danglers for armor) or use MOLLE-velcro converters.Platebags are generous and can fit true 10x12" up to about 1.4" but you'll have to man-ass plates thicker than 1.1" or so. SAPI M is probably too tall.Overall good, esp if you wanna carry a lot of ammo.
>>65584010Will do, thanks. PE pl8 so some wiggle room. Not sure on mag type yet. Just going front and back in this case. Pl8 thickness is concern. Officer dangler not so much. Likely to just have it with belt. I’m going to fit so many aics mags in this thing. Go birds!
>>65583736I'm like 90% sure it was a Nigerian scammer.
>>65584380If you need good GP pouches I can vouch for the Idogear Sundries. Tall and expandable, like $25 a pouch. Can fit multiple turkshit 10 round 12 gauge mags or basically whatever else you like.If you're snooping consider armored shoulder straps (militech sells new, Safariland has used stuff on ebay on a good day) given you'll likely be prone.Only tangentially related. I continue to be impressed at just how little traffic the Adept Emperor is getting. $3k a set, 4.55lb Level IV standalone, legit 10x12, good test report. Lightest legitimate commercially available IV ever and... not a peep outside of here and two articles.Economy's that bad, eh?
Also these guys called Armourtec have developed an active electrical counterpart to a Russian CAP. The Armourtec... Air Plate! Wear it under your vest and it actively cools your shit.https://www.armourtec.com/It's on kekstarter, so like many things it's quite possible they'll just take the cash and scram. Caveat emptor. I can see the appeal for heavy armor getups or just hot environments in general. Will have to see how it works in practice, runtime especially.
>>65584400Will check both out. I’m not certain as I have a mix mash of aics, p90, ar (20&30), and Garand clips. Also of the inclination for ak mags and the odd rifle grenade (inert) on Sunday. Lean towards a party on the sides situation but tripod allows some party up front. >adeptPrice wise fair but also that’s several loads of groceries, a trip to the casino, and half of rent. I’m not too surprised but hope they’re around when I strike it big. Assuming of course Gilliam doesn’t come out with .50bmg 5lb pe by then
>>65584434Jake Ganor is fairly young for an armor company CEO (I think he's like 35-40?) so Adept has plenty of time. They also supply select materials to Gilliam, so if one company gets new tech, so does the other.The trick is that Adept's new Ti/TiN-doped B4C used in the Emperor can be used for a relatively lightweight but extremely expensive .50 BMG AP plate. My estimate? About eight pounds for true 10x12, about 1.5" thick, and likely $5-6k a set. Contra Adept Colossus Heavy at 9.25lb for likely not-true 10x12 (about 9.7lb true 10x12 assuming it's sized same as Colossus) and maybe $2.3k a pair if it were commercialized.
I just got some soft armor off ebay and the seller shipped it untracked. Great.
>>65584496Don't all listing these days specify the courier used?(USPS 90% of the time) I'd complain if so.
>>65584568yeah he cheaped on the shipping. Will file INAD if it doesn't show or it arrives shipped by some poverty carrier.
This dude is selling big 11x17 backpack IIIA panels by the pair. $60 and then shipping.https://www.ebay.com/itm/236914963595DIY armor opportunities.
Anyone wanna take a bet on whether the Highcom 4S20M / 3S22M are vaporware or not? Release date is 2026, so they have got just over two months.Parlay, if they DO release, will they actually be lighter than their Hesco counterparts (4800 / 3811) in terms of areal density? Parlay #2, will Hesco get their head out of their ass and then replace the 4800 after eleven years of not updating their flagship?Whoever wins gets nothing
>>65566259Speaking of exotic SAPI-family plates, here's a new one. In 2009, the Marine Corps decided they wanted to take a lighter approach with a plate called the Advanced SAPI, or ASAPI. Far as I can tell this never advanced past Phase I conceptual work. The target weight was 4.25lb SAPI M versus 5.45lb SAPI M for a normal ESAPI, meeting all ESAPI performance requirements at basically almost normal SAPI weight. This is technically feasible but would require top of the line materials especially for 2009, so the plate would have been macho $$$. Kinda like your SOF ESAPIs.The USMC has a history of oddball SAPI family variants. They followed up on this unobtanium with the ECSAPI (enhanced capability SAPI) around 2013, which offered M993 protection at ESAPI weight, but only on a single strike basis (second 50% chance) versus XSAPI's three. They did actually manufacture ECSAPIs, they're just extremely rare. I'd reckon ECSAPI is probably the most desirable SAPI family plate for CONUS use except for XSAPI GEN-IV, which is experimental. This ASAPI if it does exist and performs would maybe sidegrade a Hesco 4800.
I'm in the market for something lightweight just for some added versatility in case I need something lighter than my IV's. Kinda want to keep it on the cheaper side so looking at used III+'s.https://www.ebay.com/itm/298557127296>Longfri 182202>III+>Pure PE>2.5-2.75 lbs/plate>$225 setAre these legit? Seems very light on weight for III+. From what I understand Longfri is a decent enough Chinese OEM. When searching the model number I get literally ZERO results on google or /k/ archive.
>>65585577From https://longfri.com/level-iii-pure-pe-plates/:>Flexible rims on the edge increase comfort and ensure unrestricted physical activitiesWhatever they are, they're cheat-ringed out the ASS. The official product page also has zero reference to M855 which makes this a very sketchy plate indeed. Note that this quote about cheat rings is also copypasta'd onto their Level IV plate description as well.I'd avoid all Longfri hard armor unless it's NIJ cert, or maybe a helmet.
>>65585584Note that that URL leads to a Longfri Technologies page titled "Level III+ Pure PE Plates". Their own page contents are super cut and paste with little regard to any logic.
>>65585577This is a classic case where "III+" can mean anything. Here, just M193 / MSC on top of the only Level III threat, 7.62x51mm M80. It's not going to stop M855 at normal velocity. Contra "III+" steel plates that do M80, M855, and MSC, but lose to fast M193.My concern is that the LON-III-P, their actually NIJ certified Level III PE plate, is 3.5lb. Given these plates are apparently about as cheap, losing a pound or so implies a cheat ring as >>65585584 reveals, and/or they're nominally sized (10x12 is smaller than 10x12), and/or they're just plain underbuilt.>>65585596They're funny about that because they tend to just OEM plates for other guys and are lazy about their personal lineup. Example being the TitanXP $200/set IV that TacShit sells.
>>65577883>Whatever worksRTG comes through again! Post-cold war West Germ, flectarn Uzi pouches and web harness. True unissued, non-commie surp.
Gilliam has dropped preliminary specs on the GEN-II 8002 IV++ plate. It is now SAPI M, single curve, 1.15" thick and 6.75lb. Compare versus the old version's 10.3x12.3 oversize cut, 1.25", and 8.5lb as tested by 3RR. Still a SiC tile array. M993 / Swiss P AP rated.Listed price is $400 a plate. Not gonna lie, this is very appealing for $800 a set. Single curve isn't fun, but a sub-7lb standalone tungsten stopper certainly is. Will have to see how their test data pulls.https://www.gilliamarms.com/products/model-8002-max-heavy-tungsten-rf3-silicon-carbide-ceramic-armor-plateMy concern is that the Adept Colossus is multi curve and if you size correct so it's SAPI M is 7.3lb. How is Gilliam able to drop about 0.6lb with a tile array? Single curve will get you a lighter solution than a similar multi curve, sure, but that's a big difference.
>>65586933Given the thinner plate, prob thinner backer and didn't he send a pic of that front piece arrestor at 8 ounces? Wonder if the performance will be as good. I'd say M993 yes at top of cap.
I need some asistance from armor people. Im looking for a plate carrier and plates for training. My requirements are that they have placard clips, have plates, and are cheap. As cheap as possible.They dont need to hold up longterm or even stop bullets. Thanks in advance.
>>65587240>crack arrestorThat was for the 9969, a separate plate that was basically a Gilliam counterpart to the Adept Archon. This plate is the Colossus counterpart.Not to turn on Mr. Gilliam suddenly, but note how he did NOT produce a test report for the much lighter non-crack-arrested version. The issue is that I don't think it maths out and is built too light. 9mm SiC-TiB2 tile, decent chunk of the weight. Plate went from 6lb to 5.3lb by losing the crack arrestor and making other adjustments. Fundamentally, it either has no headroom (has a Hesco 4800 problem where M2AP a hair over spec will pierce) or the multi hit is poor. It runs lighter than the Archon once you correct sizing. Hell, give it the Archon Mk. II's face and it is likely sub-5lb.Gotta keep in mind nobody else makes SiC RF3s that light unless the sizing is funny, as Adept does, which is another possibility. Bit of a moot point because only eight 9969s were sold, and only four of them the lighter sans-test-report version.>Wonder if the performance will be as good. I'd say M993 yes at top of cap.Agreed, if we covert the old 8002 to 9.5x12.5 SAPI M we're at eight pounds flat down from 8.5lb 10.25x12.25 SAPI. Even if we take the lower end variance at 8.3lb we are at 7.84lb. How are we losing over a pound here and maintaining Swiss P AP / M993 capability in a tile array? SiC face, PE backer. I understand the newer 8002 has a better quality PE backer, but shit, huge reduction.Moreover, the plate is only 0.15lb heavier than a SAPI M Hesco 4601, which gets its ass spanked by M993, let alone Swiss P. That's a monolithic. Tile arrays are heavier than counterpart monos.Really gotta see what the test report says. It seems light.
>>65587378>They dont need to hold up longterm>training IDGAF if they stop bulletsCondor vanquish or a cheapie Botach carrier and then a pair of down range or tactical scorpion steel plates?
Good knife to mount here? Front mag pouch of a DZ rig.
>>65587501Just bought a couple of Botach Discreet PCs and they're actually VISM Discreet PCs, complete with VISM tag. Most places sell these for more than Botach does. Just food for thought.
>>65575258Just ordered a set of 1635s on the advice of this thread, hope they dont suck
>>65587501Thanks.
How do you guys carry water on your kits?
>>65587385Completely happy to disclose the 9969 layup. The tile and backer itself were never changed. When we developed the plate it weighed 5 pounds, eight ounces without finished foams and covers. We never advertised this as 5.4 pounds (if we did that was not correct). The plate was about 5.5 lbs naked, period. From there - adding foams, covers (1000d) plus crack arrestors were additional weight changes. 5.5 lbs + .2 lbs = 5.7 pounds in it's lightest configuration WITHOUT a crack arrestor and add .5 to that for the crack arrestor = about 6.2 pounds. Some fluctuations happen due to manufacturing tolerances (usually .2mm for tile and 1mm for PE). A .2 pound variance in manufacturing is possible at times but is not routine.We have lots of R&D and actual test data showing crack arrestor performance on BFD and ply-penetrations. Removing a thick crack arrestor on our models has no measurable negative ballistic resistance relevance to an RF3 plate on single shot. Has some bearing on multi-hit capability (especially on a tile array, not so much on the monolithic). Removing the thick crack arrestor and replacing with Honeywell ply actually aids BFD performance slightly and makes the plate much lighter. We tried to explain the lighter plate in the listing. We will try to make sure we are as clear as possible in the future if it was muddled. The true picture on this plate is that the tile and backer never changed across the 8 plate sale into market. When custom work is done --- this is the type of thing you run into. One person wants a "no drop" thin version... another wants a crack arrestor, another wants extra foam on the wear face for use as a trauma pad. As long as the plate is tested in it's MOST vulnerable configuration, we don't lab re-test for CUSTOM work unless there are additional vulnerabilities introduced for that protection level. It was field tested naked.Had this plate gone to ITT as planned it would have been tested in NIJ ITT config.
>>65588779Thanks for the info and follow up. On further review it looks like the 9969 was at one point advertised 5.5lb with drop protection specifically on a 9.9x11.9, so 5.6lb for 10x12, 5.3lb would have then been the 9969DND no-drop version.The main issue, IMO, is that the 9969 and Adept Archon both used similar ceramic but if you size correct the Archon is 6lb and 5.6lb 9969. The Archon put on a fairly eh showing with Buffman. How do you figure the 9969 comes in 0.4lb lighter than the Archon when both are comparable 10x12? What is Jake doing wrong? The 9969's last test report I saw was the 6.2lb / 1.28" version. It IMO should have still gotten a new one.In the end, it's really a moot issue since the 9969 is discontinued and rare. There are more Ceradyne 96034s in private possession than them. The real issue is the new 8002 GEN-II, IMO. How's it a pound and change lighter than the original when sizing is controlled?
>>655888249969 was never lighter than 5.5 + .2 variance. If it was listed as such, it was not correct. A few plates were sold as "DND"s but the tile and the backer together always weighed 5.5 naked. Can't speak for Jake. Absolute density is known if you have the engineering drawings curvatures, batch info, chamfers, etc. Relative density is also tricky because things are slightly variable. One builder may use a hard 1mm outer rubber edge - where another may use a 3-5mm foam outer ceramic peripheral protection. Re the extra report - our data shows that eliminating the thick CAP on monolithics makes certain performance better, not worse. Select things don't need additional tests for very limited runs. Test with 6mm wear face foam & want to add 3mm to the 6mm = 9mm of foam, those changes are beneficial to performance and do not introduce additional vulnerabilities. Taking 3mm out is a different thing. Running a custom lot of 8 plates across the floor, you would not test a beneficial change like that UNLESS the plate was moving into an NIJ ITT (like this one was supposed to do). Of course, you are the consumer and 100% entitled to your view. I'm just trying to explain the rationale in this particular case.8002:The backer is not as robust, the tile is the same... the crack arrestor is gone and replaced by a single HP sheet. As the pre-listing says --- lab testing will drive future development. Depends on what comes back... BFD, ply penetration, M993 and Swiss P AP. The only layup (not size) change is that the thick arrestor is gone and the backer has fewer plies (we saw a lot of redundancy there). So, we may end up putting the plies back in... or even replacing the CAP... depends on the test results. Asked lab about 7N37 and can't get any. Reasonable things to test are M993 and Swiss P AP. Even M993 in a lighter configuration should fill a market niche. Depending on the lab results, the new plate may never make it to market given our new emphasis.
>>65569596>3-4kOmni VII is 2k for Gen 3. Digital NV is such a gay cope. You’re better off just getting digital trail cams to set up
>>65588911>9969 was never lighter than 5.5 + .2 varianceThe variance would then explain the 5.3-5.7lb range. I'm just saying, it stops the same threats (light tungsten 5.56 et al) as Archon but came in lighter and seemingly shared a strike face, given the 6.2lb 9969 was originally advertised for M993 as the Archon was but then retracted down to M2AP + tungsten SCHV. >8002:The backer is not as robust, the tile is the same... the crack arrestor is gone and replaced by a single HP sheet. As the pre-listing says --- lab testing will drive future development. Depends on what comes back... BFD, ply penetration, M993 and Swiss P AP. That partially explains it.>Even M993 in a lighter configuration should fill a market niche. Depending on the lab results, the new plate may never make it to market given our new emphasis.Dropping to M993 only would definitely explain more, as anon said >>65587240. Just saying, it's a tile array but comes in lighter than the Colossus, which runs nearly 44mm BFD vs Swiss P AP already.>7N37You can proxy using ukrainian Stiletto Systems BS12 if the lab can't source this. We have it on good authority Stiletto and 7N37 were developed by the same guys. They have a heavier BS14 also which allegedly proxies for the new 7N51.Going off the FORT ACP-M it's pretty clear 7N37 outclasses Swiss P AP and is more representative of actually modern tungsten 7.62x51 / 7.62x54R AP. Swiss P is IMHO outdated.
>>65589075You can always just keep designing for a stronger and stronger round, right? The question is who will buy it? Over the years, I've made too many mistakes chasing products like that. You have to sell something you can sell. I haven't watched all of the Colossus videos. The 8002 was 10.3 x 12.3" and stopped (in order) M993 crown (single curve upper crown) in the mid-30s and Swiss P AP as a SECOND lower single-curve crown shot also in the mid-30s. That was just for lab testing and we don't typically "overshoot" a lab plate to annihilation. We like to study adhesive actions, etc. 3RBallistics threw a lot at the 8002 and it shows the strength of arrays. On a monolithic against higher powered rounds, the first shot pretty much shatters the plate and it's unpredictable after that.(more so than the array).If the Swiss P AP shot on the Colossus was not shot 1 - then it's hard to say how strong it really is. A ceramic armor plate is truly good for a single shot MOST of the time (vulnerable to follow-on in same area). One way to mitigate that in design is to use backing materials that are autonomously resistant to RF1 and then layer the ceramic on top. That way if you face an RF1-type threat (most likely) you are increasing your survival probabilities if you are unlucky enough to get struck more than once in an adjoining area by the most common street threats.Only thing I would say about the Archon is don't assume that it was the same strike face. Percentage of TiB2 in amalgam, thickness could vary and swing the weight (batch info)... best to ask him directly about your concerns. You know how to reach me directly if you are who I think you are... or you can just email me through the site and I can help answer some of your more technical questions about anything we are doing. I am transparent but I'm not quite see through!Tend to prefer plain SiC versus hybrid SiC ceramics. Keeps the plate lighter... mixing something harder with boron is a good idea.
>>65588545On my plate carrier, I have the agilite pack, which carries a 3 liter bladder. On my LBE, I just have a nalgene stuffed in a pouch.
>>65589221>You can always just keep designing for a stronger and stronger round, right?Certainly. That's sometimes called the "chasing the dragon" issue. At some point you do have to call it quits and settle on what's probable, not just possible. The industry overwhelmingly doesn't sell tungsten rated plates outside of niche applications for good reason. LTC hasn't updated their 28601 since 2009. The issue is that Swiss P is kinda a half measure. Will handle what's being slung by the local metro PD and NG. Doesn't cover M1158 and other "off the truck" threats. 7N37 covers more ground.>I haven't watched all of the Colossus videos. It was a four shot test report from Dec 2024. IIRC, second shot was 43.6mm. Third N/A. Rest were high thirties.>3RBallistics threw a lot at the 8002 and it shows the strength of arrays.Certainly. If you aim for specific tiles each time then tile arrays vastly outperform monos. It's all about that spacing and placement. Russia's 7N37 rated plates are all tile arrays and many will do six spaced.>Only thing I would say about the Archon is don't assume that it was the same strike face. I have been meaning to ask him about what happened to the M993 rated version of the Archon, and whether there are plans to apply the B4C-SiC-TiB2 Quatroid ceramic to a Colossus Mk. II. Yoir 9969 was at first advertised to M993 too (I have a screengrab). >I am transparentAs said before, I appreciate the answers! Much better than what we were getting from RMA when they were challenged.>Tend to prefer plain SiC versus hybrid SiC ceramics. Keeps the plate lighter... mixing something harder with boron is a good idea.I'm under the impression Adept's SiC-TiB2 is a bit of a gimmick and the Quatroid is the real deal. Weight loss on Archon (0.6lb) is no joke. As it is partly B4C then amorphization probably still applies and it might not do as hot versus M993 / Swiss P. Amorphization-resistant boron carbide has been the industry's holy grail for over 20 years.
>>65588962There's two arguments, really:1. The difference between an NVG-30 digital mono and a 2k Omni VII is about the same as between a pair of Hesco 4403s and a pair of Hesco 4800s on a really good sale (Verretts had 4800s for 2.1k, I think warranties were about to dry out). So people do get priced the hell out. 2. Your likely counter, quality NV is more important than saving 5.6lb on a pair of plates, and you'd be right. Survivability onion dictates "don't get detected" outranks "don't be penetrated." You don't get penetrated if you see the enemy first and have the drop / can avoid them. Ergo NV / thermal takes precedence over overly expensive plates and the market reflects. Nobody cares about Adept's $3k a set featherweight IV! By the way, you got a link on those Omnis?>>65588545Canteens and a 3L bladder back of carrier.>>65588248Nah they test out fine in the test reports. They're light for Alumina-PE, but if the reports check out and the plates sent match the report, all good. Basically like a better RMA 1165.
I regret to inform everyone that A2, the tripfag that has been posting here for years, died in Yemen recently from a drone strike near Sanaa. He fought as a Saudi mercenary alongside the giants brigade. This has been confirmed by several of his good friends.
>>65589579well fuck, guess this is actually /bag/ now...
>>65589579>died in YemenSemen I could believe. Still, poor guy. All that theoretical experience down the drain.
>>65589867What a waste of a perfectly good pair of Hesco 4800s.
>>65589895Perhaps the Greeks were right and tragedy is the obverse of comedy? The Germans call it Schadenfreude, the show Jackass seems to have nailed that. I liked 'Faulty Towers', but British "humour" can disrupt American palettes. In the end, pic rel.
>>65589941Five hundred years from now, long after world wars III and IV and V, long after all these ceramic plates' adhesive has failed, after the ceramic has broken into dust, after the UHMWPE has melted in the scorching nuclear armageddon...In the grim dark future of the latter half of the 2nd millennium, there will be only steel plates.
>>65589579chris costa lost his top student...he did not go all out.
Well in light of recent events, cuh is selling a seemingly cum-stained 3x3 foot Paraclete IIIA ballistic blanket for $170 opening bid or best offer.bro could have used this...https://www.ebay.com/itm/128131951979Botach has larger ones up to 4x6' but they cost more and aren't... used.
>>65589579I refuse to believe Yemenis would blow that fine ass up.
>>65589579Let there be no confusion. The Chinese MUST develop a ballistic version of the Aliexpress Rizz Cloak >>65582707.With that Rizz, A2 could have stopped the fragmentation.Honestly have we ruled out the idea A2 just faked his death online so he could bow out?
>>65590016I keep A2 locked up in my basement. Go birds!
>ackshually I don't approve of your kit becau-ACK
>>65590081Back to containment. The moment has passed. Armor discussion must resume. How about them Gilliam 9969’s?
>>65590116>a2 dies after over a decade posting on /k/>anon is already saying the moment has passed within the same thread its announcedUnusually cruel and heartless behavior.
>>65590116bro we already discussed the 9969s. Basically:1. No new test report. Gilliam argues this doesn't matter because the non-arrested version is better performing, I'm concerned about multi hit and also drop pro for the 9969DND. Crack arrestors serve a purpose.2. It does better without the heavy-ass crack arrestor. Allegedly. Test report? 3. No dispute (?) it was originally advertised to defeat M993 like the Adept Archon was. IMO, that's on Adept which is odd because they said the Archon reliably defeats M993 at X velocity. Buffman shoots it, plate whiffs. Reliably implies with safety margin. If Adept oversold the SiC-TiB2 ceramic to Gilliam then that's between them. IMO, it's quickly becoming apparent Adept's wonder ceramics only provide incremental improvements, if that, versus base ceramic counterparts. Even Quatroid is basically just doped SiC-B4C. The real money is in PE improvements and new flavors of drop / trauma foam.4. Weight was all over the place because it was a quasi-custom, Gilliam will do better to not flub advertised specs here on out. Apparently the eight total 9969s on the streets are all unique. Same backer, same face, some have drop pro, others lack the crack arrestor. There are EIGHT 9969s, so now that the plate is discontinued it's gonna be extremely rare. For comparison there are 148 Ceradyne 96034s. That's considered a unicorn "end game" plate. There are more 96034s in /k/ommando possession than there are 9969s, period.
>>65589950This has all happened before, and it will all happen again.
>>65590268>Unusually cruel and heartless behavior.>he posted on 4 chan
>>65590116And also doing some basic math indicates Adept got an 8-10% weight reduction from SiC-TiB2 with the Archon Mk. I to B4C-SiC-TiB2 with the Mk. II, so if applied to a hypo 9969 Mk. II would produce a ~5.1lb RF3, standalone 10x12, for maybe $1.2k a set tops.Another pointer that Hesco needs to stop selling the 4800, originally launched in 2015, like it's still a next gen plate. LTC's 26310 is even worse. Protech's 9812-R1 hasn't changed since ~2008 except the cover.Hesco does supposedly have a secret Level IV above the 4800, like how they have a secret RF2 above the 3811 called the SC3812. Nobody knows the exact model # but it's supposed to be a pricey son of a bitch. Modern PE improvements should enable major weight reductions probably down to ~4.5lb without having to use exotic ceramic. Always good to keep in mind SOCOM had requirements for a ~4.3lb M993 rated standalone plate in 2017, so true state of the art is a lot higher than many may think.
>>65590370>>65590448On that pure PE kick still. Supposedly tomorrow is the day for the rf1’s. In general though I lean towards it had the most potential for improvement. I dream of m993 standalone pe
>>65590697>M993 standalone PEThe kinda stuff Adam Smasher will be rolling up with in 2077. Maybe. Critical rule with armor, the sword always moves faster than the shield. Armor like that won't be a thing until rounds like 7N37 are considered old school like M2AP.It'll happen eventually. Sooner or later the supply of M2AP will be exhausted and the NIJ will have to choose a new RF3 test threat. Rumor has it the selection is between 6.8 M1186 at enhanced velocity or M993. I'd vote for the former only because I do expect M1186 to fall off the truck. That's main line ammo. M993 will eventually be replaced and then you repeat the same issue as with M2AP 10-20 years from now when the supply is exhausted. As said before, tungsten plates only good for M993 / Swiss P are a bit awkward because they overkill IV, which is already overkill CONUS unless it's an exceptionally bad day, but aren't up for the task against modern heavy hitter tungsten AP. These future PE plates run the same issue. By the time tech makes them possible, well, China will be on some kind of .338 AP that pierces damn near anything.I'd have to check, but I remember the old /bag/ guys talking about an experimental tantalum-tungsten alloy .338 SLAP from China which pierced over 70-80mm RHA. I'm a bit skeptical, but that would go through an Adept Colossus like M993 would go through a Gilliam Helion all-PE plate. Knife through smoke.
>>65590697>In general though I lean towards it had the most potential for improvementI also really wish Zylon wasn't a complete dud. Hybrid Zylon-Spectra could have enabled 4lb Level IVs a decade ago.
>>65590748That has more penetration than most pre-1939 tank guns, think like 37mm and such. Just imagine a weapon that needed either a tank turret or a wheeled AT gun carriage to get around, can now be had in an anti-personnel rifle format. Hell you could get a cut-down carbine length variant even, although it'd lose some velocity unless you went bullpup. Forget body armor, to withstand that you'd practically need an APC or IFV with ceramic applique armor. Start bolting EDUN plates onto your secondhand Brinks armored car, shit's getting Cyberpunk tier spicy.>when you roll up in your milsurp M3 Stuart salvaged from Guadacanal but cuh got dem tantalum slicks in his .338
>>65590768The neat thing is that all this talk of exotic ceramic body armor also applies to vehicular armor. It's the same, just on a larger scale. One day, there could be polycrystalline diamond armor packages for UGVs, tanks, etc. End of the day, the Chinese .338 ultra AP is still only .338.Jake Ganor at Adept recently proposed an idea of "ambient armor" - loyal wingmen UAVs or UGVs that carry shields and are meant to provide portable environmental armor. The idea is actually pretty smart. Use perforated metal sheets or other materials to destabilize the bullets enough so that they can be soaked up by body armor. Make the system multi-layer without increasing load on the infantryman:https://www.ade.pt/ambient-armor-drones-and-autonomous-devices-as-personal-shield-bearers/>"When a 7.62x51mm AP bullet hits a thin (4mm) perforated sheet it is substantially destroyed and destabilized – even if it impacts directly over a slot in the plate, as in the above image, provided that slot is smaller in one dimension than the diameter of the bullet. Asymmetric forces are applied onto that bullet, separate its components, and ruin its trajectory. And that’s not even the worst-case scenario for the bullet: Those asymmetric forces will often fracture the core into pieces."Idea isn't to defeat the AP, it's just to take the bite off.>"As things stand right now, aerial drones with aramid or UHMWPE felt curtains appear to be the most plausible route to near-future ambient armor, but there’s much more work to be done."So in the latter example, the idea is deploying PE or aramid sheets on UAVs so they take the edge off before they hit your actual armor. Threat hits crisp white sheets. Air gap 100 yards. Then you. Fundamentally same principal as to why the SWAT guy with the shield also has a platecarrier, just with longer distances. Add more layers, get more survivability. Shit's an onion.This would be very handy in Ukraine given the frag threat...
>>65590799Sounds like a number of defensive funnels/bits from various Gundam shows. We'll need like a quasi-Psycomuu or some shit to control it all though, especially as battlefield jamming gets more and more complex.
Anyone have strong thoughts about a 3 mag vs 4 mag placard on a plate carrier? Medium sapi spiritus lv-120 for context. Main concern is how much overhang there will be on the sides of the plate bag and if that will be a pain in the ass with the tubes on the cummerbund
>>65590910Fiber optic isn't gonna work just due to the density of ambient armor as proposed. I'm thinking it'll have to be AI and the armor pieces will need to be able to make decisions automatically and also with human orders.Where this will get really tricky is urban combat, because you're not gonna get as much standoff, angles are awkward, and there's the thousand dollar question of how the hell you get a Level IV shield up a flight of stairs.
>>65578718Update on this, basically it's a IIIA choker. Zesty fucking italians. Wrap-around neck protection is nice though
>>65591363Just become a Cyber-Newtype bro, you can control that shit with your psychic magic brainwaves completely independent of anything science or reality related like physical objects or the EM spectrum. Plus you too get to mentally connect with everyone that dies within the entire Earth Sphere, feeling their death pain and mental anguish until you go insane! Win win scenario.
>>65591703Get that United Shield Kent off ebay for $300 bro. Gundam it up. Speaking of tanking shit like a Gundam, I have a new emerging armor material we can look forward to. Apparently it could be the secret sauce to monolithic multi-hit .50 AP plates:>Carbon/Silicon Carbide Composites>"Carbon fiber-reinforced silicon carbide (C/SiC) represents an advanced class of ceramic defense material that mitigates the catastrophic failure mode of monolithic ceramics through fiber-matrix debonding and crack deflection mechanisms">"Ballistic performance is further enhanced by incorporating oblique hole arrays (diameter 3–8 mm, inclination angle 30–60° relative to the strike face) that induce projectile yaw and increase the effective interaction length""Experimental validation using 12.7×99 mm armor-piercing (AP) rounds shows that C/SiC panels with 5 mm diameter holes at 45° inclination and 15 mm spacing achieve 25–30% higher V50 (ballistic limit velocity) compared to solid plates of equivalent areal density (35 kg/m2) (eureka, patsnap)All very good. Here's the coup de grace:>"The fracture toughness of C/SiC (15–20 MPa·m^(1/2)) is 4–6 times higher than monolithic SiC, enabling multi-hit capability within a 100 mm radius"That's a dramatic improvement. Current .50 AP plates are strictly single strike (Adept Colossus Heavy, EDUN). A multi hit solution demands either an extremely heavy tile array or a ceramic like this. Here's the kicker. According to Adept this C/SiC ceramic is already seeing use in vehicular armor:>"C/SiC — is popular as a ceramic armor material in very high-end and demanding vehicular applications, where multi-hit performance is a key requirement."Tencate aka Integris allegedly has VPAM PM-13 / PM-14 plates in the back. Perhaps this is what they're using.
>Temu Kratos uses a sizing guide to buy plates>the hands of death told him he was SAPI M>the sisters of fate said to buy RMA>He did NOT get true to size! (because RMA SAPI M is smaller than 9.5x12.5")>hey guys why are these plates so smallPlate sizing is a shitshow now that barely anyone is doing true to size. Philly trash sniper, did you get the RF1s?
>>65591866>9.5x12.5"I want max coverage, about 10"x16". What's closest must stop green tip.
>>65592196>Medium extra longGilliam can deal a custom pair of 6001s.Other options are a custom from Jinwudun (just use Gilliam instead), a custom flexible solution from Stealth Armor Systems ($$$), or some of the 11x14 or 15x16 full torso cut plates from Tencate.Alternatively, if you run a DMGEAR XL dangler under a 10x12, you can run a second 10x12 upside down. Puts you at 10x24. Problem is that this is ergonomically goofy and there's a gap between both plates, so more like 10x22.Also, in theory, many people who wear 10x12s can actually size up to SAPI L 10.25x13.25 without major difficulty. It's barely wider than true 10x12 and you get an extra 1.25" down south. Bad news is you eat a weight increase, but people overstate this:1. Resizing a 4lb 10x12 to SAPI L is 4.8lb.2. Resizing the same 10x12 to 10x16 is 5.34lb. Make it "SAPI" 10x16 and you eat another 0.2lb. 3. Doing a "DMGEAR Double" and using a second 10x12 as a jumbo dickflap puts you at 8lb not counting the pouch and ergonomic disaster.
Spot the things wrong with nork guy's carrier in MW4.
NEW: >>65592479NEW: >>65592479NEW: >>65592479NEW: >>65592479
>>65591866Yes and no. They have been delivered and are under surveillance but usps was behind on the route and missed the delivery window before I had to hit up Chinatown. Currently enjoying some hookah and will be picking them up here in the morning. Also need to check out that tasm tiger vest. Go birds!
