>>36647909
That person is attention seeking and constantly going out of their way to make gross content like talking about SRS in public spaces (Disney) like what in the actual fuck? Seeing it get misgendered constantly is awesome though

>>36647927
its prob just bait so he can be attacked and gain sympathy points for being so hecking valid

>>36647909
>Can anyone in good faith please kindly explain how any of my takes are problematic or bigoted?
Sure. The truth is your takes are not that bad at all, they're pretty normie, and people who have a spat at you are probably being too sensitive, or likely ascribing other values or ideals to your based on their own narrow understanding and ironically bigoted beliefs.

I'll critique for you though:
>I’m willing to use this persons preferred pronouns but I don’t actually believe that picrel IS a woman.
This isn't that bad, but it's just missing the point. There's no reason to really argue about this other than to try and justify your own transphobic views, so people will naturally just view you as being transphobic.
Truth is there's like a dozen different things that "a woman" can be/mean and some people are using one while you are using another. Just accept that and stop being stubborn about it. It doesn't really matter. There's no reason to die on this hill, on either side. It's just semantics.

>The reason why I am using he/him pronouns for this person in this thread
This is kinda bad, because it signals that you're also not willing to use other peoples pronouns when they're not there. The reality is the only time pronouns actually matter is when you're talking about some third party, those are the only gendered pronouns in English. It's not that hard to make an effort to use them.

If you have a black friend who doesn't like you saying "nigger" around them and you just say it in front of other people, then those other people who know that think "I don't like it when they call me faggot.. do they just only do it when other people aren't around?". You're effectively being two faced or manipulative, you're just playing nice when people are watching, it undermines your character and authenticity.
Again not a big deal, but there is something to it.

cont..

>>36647909
>>36648134
>I don’t think it’s fair ... due to biological differences between the sexes.
Extremely normie take but unironically the most transphobic and backwards of all the views you have here. People just don't understand the factors we ought to be considering.

The reality is that sports are all about biological advantages and disadvantages. We don't segregate black and white people to make it more "fair", or because of "biological differences", but in many sports it would be logical to do so based on the same premise. We don't have categories for tall people and short people. etc. etc.

The reason we have womens sports as a distinct category is not because it's more "fair", this is a common misconception. We have a separate category for womens sports because women, traditionally, were massively under-represented in sports. By creating a space for them to feel more "included" we hoped to increase participation, and this was hugely successful. It's not about "fairness", it's about opportunity/environment.

Trans people are also massively under-represented in sport. The participation rates are faaaar lower than cis women on a per capita basis. Therefore, it makes sense to open up the "inclusive" category to encompass gender diverse people, to increase their participation levels. If this resulted in negative impacts on womens participation at a significant rate, then it would objectively be a bad decision. But it doesn't, and there is absolutely 0 evidence to indicate it does.

There are a whole bunch of other dynamics at play here, including the concept of "fairness" etc. but most people get very lost in the weeds. Are we talking about amature sport or elite sport, which sport, what code, where etc. etc. etc.

Trans women in womens sport ought to be the norm, with maybe some exceptions or special rules based around objective measurements (size, weight classes, etc.) where appropriate as enforced by whatever peak body/regulator is in place.

>>36647909
>Unless I were his doctors I wouldn’t say that to this person
In your mind what does being a doctor change? You seem to agree that this person has every right to do what they want with their body, and that using he/him would be unnecessarily antagonizing them. How is telling them they’re not a woman any different?

>>36647909
They are a psyop
They are not real

>>36648255
in my experience the public genders me fine but doctors misgender me every single time (and gaslight when called on it) so I guess that’s it

>>36648255
To expand. As a doctor if he wanted a hysterectomy I would have to remind he is a male and does not have a uterus

>>36648147
spoken as someone who has never competed be4. the differences between men and women I sport especially as you go up in level of competition is night and day. Racial or ethnic differences mean nothing compared to gender. Gender advantages are simple uncompetitive advantages, such that if trans women compete there will be no women competing in high level sport within like 5 years.

>>36648346
odd how I’ve never been to the doctor to demand a hysterectomy but when I have been and they have used “but you’re a male logic” all they’ve done is mistreated me by misunderstanding the situation

n.b.: this guy said that Kurt Cobain was "probably trans" because he wore dresses and more often hung out with girls as a kid.

>>36648374
We're not talking about the differences between men and women. We're talking about the differences between trans women and women.

Meta analyses have been done on basically all studies around trans women in sports. They have a competitive advantage against the "average" woman. They do NOT have a competitive advantage against the average woman competitor.

Because in competitive sports you are already applying a selection pressure for the most athletically gifted and capable people. You don't need to compare to ALL women, you need to compare to the women who also naturally have a "biological advantage" due to height, weight, hormone levels etc.

A 5'6 trans woman will never out compete a 6ft cis woman in basketball. Her being trans is completely irrelevant. There is no "biological advantage" here.

>spoken as someone who has never competed be4.
I competed in sport during high school including at district and even state championships, as a teenage male my 200m times were competitive with internationally competitive womens times in the same year.

As a trans woman who is still relatively athletic my times would be absolutely trash. I'm literally carrying kilograms of extra bone mass with me, and no muscle density or strength to back it up. Cis women out perform me in like, everything.

And as I said, all of this is literally irrelevant because the discussion is not about competitiveness or fairness anyway. This isn't the reason we have womens sports. It's to increase the participation rates of a traditionally marginalised group of people.

>Gender advantages are simple uncompetitive advantages, such that if trans women compete there will be no women competing in high level sport within like 5 years.

Then where are all the trans women dominating womens sport? Logically if they have such a competitive advantage they will be absolutely dominating all categories, right?

>>36648460
>This isn't the reason we have womens sports. It's to increase the participation rates of a traditionally marginalised group of people.
I thought the actual historical reason is that men sometimes lose to women and feel bad about it.

>>36648374
Why do people always start talking about 'the differences between men and women' in these conversations. Trans women who are on HRT have a totally different biology, it's not relevant

>>36648374
>we have to exclude a million people from the basic civic activity of playing sports because of a hypothetical scenario that exists in my head
We don't actually. The fact that you aren't willing to wait and see is an indication that you are advocating for this policy out of a desire to discriminate

>>36648404
Trannies here say that all the time.

>>36648471
Yeah that's where the marginalisation comes in.
Technically in a lot of sports women were "allowed" to compete especially as society opened up to women more with time. Often they still are, it's an open category.

But they were shunned an pressured out of it by men, for a variety of reasons including masculine insecurity. That's why special womens categories were made, to create a space for them to participate. Sports were a very unwelcoming environment due to the masculine "boys club" culture that dominated it.

>>36648147
Its not an inclusive space, its an amab exclusive space. If there was such a biological difference between race as there is with gender, their would also be race based leagues. No amount of biological differences between women can make up for the differences between sexes, or women would hold records in a sport higher then a record for men.

Participation isn't the only measure of fairness or satisfaction. Plenty of female athletes have to resort to voicing concerns anonymously. You want to be specific? Any sport level related to financial benefits.

Here's a special rule based on objective measurements: No amabs

>>36648556
Where is the league for manlets? Why don't we have a special league for them?
There are massive biological disadvantages that come with being 5'6. You will literally never compete at a high level in most sports.

Yet in armature sports they all still seem to get out there and have fun and try their best. Weird isn't it? You think there would be no point and none of them would participate due to the clear differences between them and 6ft men.

I guess they are all just stupid and don't realise how they are competitively disadvantaged, so there is no point playing.

>>36648508
it's interesting because in his comments he seemed to get a fair bit of backlash, but plenty of trans people (here and elsewhere) make similar claims about themselves and/or deem legitimate similar claims by others. most of them don't seem to go the biological route (the brain), so the only other justification for their claimed identity would be social stereotypes. but I think because Kurt is dead the optics looked particularly bad and people wanted to suppress that narrative.

>>36648614
Again, talking about higher level sports such as those with scholarships involved. What amateur sports are you even taking about? Short men in sports naturally gravitate to those that accommodate them, such as wrestling. Short men would be happier if they had a space of their own, only pride would not allow it.

I'm sure that some women are happy punching above their weight. Doesn't make it right, especially because so many more aren't okay with it and have no way of voicing their dissatisfaction currently. This especially true where scholarships are involved.

>>36647909
>please kindly explain how any of my takes are problematic or bigoted
they aren't, in general.
>I think the bathroom issue is complicated
it isn't. if you pass well enough to look more like you belong in the women's room than the men's, then you use the women's room. Defining that point is hard, but deciding if trannies can use the women's bathroom in general is not.
>this person could be a predator
chomphon in particular kinda is. she's weird about kids.

>>36648738
>it isn't. if you pass well enough to look more like you belong in the women's room than the men's, then you use the women's room
not to be rude, and passability is a spectrum, but most trans people don't pass. but I'm not even sure most would agree to this criteria regardless of whether they passed.

>>36648404
He also wrote about how he wished he was a woman in his journal

>>36647909
It’s very condescending and also very fucked how you just come here to say like “these are my opinions now debate me trannies” I hate that shit. Also at what point would you accept trannies as women?
This person looks like someone I would hate though so whatever.

>>36648760
do you happen to know the specifics of what he said on that front? if he had those thoughts when he was a kid, that could easily coincide with his more harmonious friendships with girls, which is (obviously) not uncommon among gay and/or more feminine boys. it could also just be a bi-curious thing, and he wanted to know what it would be like to be with a guy.

>>36648770
>fucked how you just come here
>4chan.org
literal lurk more tranny faggot

>>36648796
Whatever.

>>36648796
not them, and not a believe of trans ideology, but that's a bit harsh

>>36648747
>most trans people don't pass.
then most trans people belong in their agab bathroom
>I'm not even sure most would agree to this criteria
then most are wrong

>>36648804
believer*

>>36648804
4chan culture has really fallen off

>>36648770
>at what point would you accept trannies as women
Pooners are women

>>36648807
>then most are wrong
because?

>>36648828
because im right. this is how bathrooms ought to be decided. so if you disagree you're wrong.
>>36648817
rude but lmao

>>36648700
>Again, talking about higher level sports such as those with scholarships involved. What amateur sports are you even taking about?
Ok, so to be clear then you're only actually discussing like,1% of "sports"; professional/paid sports.
The remaining 99% is amateur/recreational in nature and does not involve financial incentives, so trans women in those sports are completely fine and you don't have any problem with it, right?

This already resolves the issue for basically every single "trans women in sports" case.

>I'm sure that some women are happy punching above their weight. Doesn't make it right, ... This especially true where scholarships are involved.
I think you should do some diving into the ethics of professional sports before you start making claims about what is and isn't "fair" or "right"

There is a lot of discussion happening in this space right now, and has been for at least a decade or now. The deeper you dive the more complicated it gets, the idea that somehow this superficial take on "competitiveness" is the thing that matters here is kinda laughable.
I've spent a lot of time discussing this with people who are highly experienced and knowledgeable, including physio/exphys that work on olympic teams, industry experts/advisors to peak bodies, postgrad students etc. my brother is postgrad exphys and doing mba sports psychology at an internationally reknown sports centric university, his friend group are mostly in this field.

The prominent take with regards to trans people is to largely sidestep this issue and look at it in terms of a social issue. Because that's what it is.
The ethics of the competitiveness itself becomes extremely complicated and swiftly entangles itself with ethical issues regarding paying people for sports at all, what is "fair" in the scope of "competition" etc. it's not at all easy to unpack, and it's not something that is in any way unique to trans people or transness.

>>36648833
>because im right
perhaps you are, but I'm asking where that justification comes from. is this purely emotional or do you have an actual argument you could make for this proscription?

>>36648700
>>36648835
Also to be clear anon, I started with the same view as you. Intuitively it seems unfair. I was always gifted at sports, I contextualised this all based on the same superficial ideas and that “it wouldn’t be fair” feeling inside.

Other people who know way more about this convinced me it wasn’t the issue I thought it was. We want to look at it the wrong way around because we don’t know enough about it to know how illogical and infeasible it actually is to do so.

>>36648854
it's simple moral calculus. you go where you'll bother the least number of people.

>>36648460
Plz link to the studies, i have only read the one about red blood cells on running.

>>36648868
most people are bothered by any trans person going into the restroom of their "gender identity", regardless of whether they pass

>>36648880
I’m out at the moment anon so not much on me but quickly googled this one I was thinking of when writing that:
https://cces.ca/transgender-women-athletes-and-elite-sport-scientific-review

>>36648907
you can't be bothered if you can't tell. and if they pass you can't tell.

>>36648880
are transphobes now denying the fact that practically all trans women have anemia by male standards. And we’re probably a lower average than cis women due to higher estrogen levels

as an FTM who is an attention seeking slut, I regret to inform you that she is both a woman AND and terrible. This is more common in women because women are the inferior gender, unlike me, a man. I love the winning team.

>>36648835
Nope, idk where you got those numbers. Highschool, college, professional ect. Local clubs are less consequential and can decide themselves.

Wow, that was a whole lot of nothing. Why don't you take a dive into gender inequality, so you don't confuse the struggle of sexism with the struggle of being short.

Have you discussed this with afabs who are in a competitive varsity sport? Cause you're talking to one, and I feel nothing but frustration competing against amabs. I respect trans rights to other spaces, but there are boundaries to everything. Sooner or later, this whole thing will implode.

>>36648998
Lmao
Ok I’m gonna channel my inner 4chan here and point out that it’s really funny to me that your concern as an “afab” is literally “well it feels bad to me and that’s what matters”.
Like, shut the fuck up and stop being a bitch I guess?

Oh yeah this is a for profit industry where we literally give people brain damage, on purpose, for entertainment value because it’s profitable, and the “ethical concerns” you have are “it’s not fair for me personally and it makes me feel bad”.

You don’t give a single fuck about the ethics, or what’s “right” or what’s “fair”. You want things to be good for you personally and you’re having a cry because it feels bad.
The fact that you bring the “gender inequality” into this when we have already established this is a complex intersectional issue is just icing on the cake.

Check your female privilege at the door pls. You’re actually so self centred it’s fucking wild.

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>>36648998
>>36649049
>two redditspacers fighting

I mean, it's shallow "acceptance," man. If someone claimed to be your friend, but really they just acted very kind and said the right things while while thinking and saying all kinds of shit about you behind your back that you found hurtful and untrue, you'd probably feel pretty fucked up about it if you found out.

That's not kindness or respect, it's civility. and some people don't prefer civility to honesty, if there has to be a choice between the two.

The reason it's bigoted because it's based on like the simplest inaccurate belief about trans people, which is that they are not the gender they perceive themselves to be. I don't know how to make it any simpler. I'm sure someone has told you all this already.

>>36649059
You don’t know what redditspacing is anon go back.

>>36649049
I think you would do good to have listened to that "it wouldn't be fair feeling." But I knew from the beginning you wouldn't be interested in a consciousness, even though you tried to lecture me on ethics lmao.

Especially funny because you wish you could be a bitch.

Idk wtf for profit industry your talking about. Their are legal precedents that give female athletes equal opportunity for scholarships, and weird how you dismiss the value of... all sports?

Yeah, I do want things to be good for me and other women, god knows men will take advantage of us.

You just want things to be good for you personally, admitted you dgaf about how people in the situation actually feel.

You feel that anger? As soon as you're actually challenged in your beliefs, you lose it. Especially because you hate women.

Anyway, I was just checking this site out out of morbid curiosity. Thanks for confirming my suspicions lol byeee

his child be like in 2019:hey dad
his child in 2023 be like: hey transformed mother

>>36648346
>in my land of make believe if a situation that has never happened happens
What a joke

>>36649132
You’re at Uni. Take an ethics class pls. You literally don’t understand what it means.

>>36649096
oh ok i'm sorry

>>36649209
She's right. You're literally arguing that an ogre like Hafthor should be given the right to compete against afabs at all costs as long as he does two years of hrt.

>>36649673
As per usual, every argument is "we need to ban millions of marginalised people from recreational activities because of this made up scenario in my head".
This isn't a real problem. If it ever becomes one, there are teams of experts and regulators involved in all of these things that can make the best assessments, judgements, and adopt policy as necessary.

There's a long history of sex testing in sport. There are reasons things work the way they do now. Nobody ever has an informed or educated opinion on this because it's unintuitive.

>>36649729
Should Hafthor be able to compete with afabs if he does two years of hrt? If not, why?

>>36649758
>Should Hafthor be able to compete with afabs if he does two years of hrt? If not, why?
It depends entirely on the sport. Chess? Of course! Archery? I think so? Wrestling? Probably not? I guess he does some kinda weight lifting stuff? I don't know enough about it to really say, I'm assuming it has some weight/size classes etc.
I think pushing the limits of physical strength is something where your physical size as well as your skeleton strength and structure is uniquely important, so it's probably one of the cases where amab puberty provides some of the strongest advantages. There are few tradeoffs to being smaller or faster like many sports, which is why I'm also assuming there are some weight/size classes.

What about an afab woman in the same sport, but she has some sort of intersex/hormone disorder she isn't aware of?
What about when she spends years to excel and compete on the world stage, only to get disqualified and have her whole career fall apart because she was "born wrong"? Around 1/100 women were being disqualified in the olympics during the 90's for this reason btw

"Trans women in sport" is just "Puberty blockers for kids". We literally handwave all the other cases but when it comes to trans/intersex people want to make some special rules for us.

>>36649947
>I don't know enough about it to really say, I'm assuming it has some weight/size classes etc.
There are weight classes in lifting competitions, and Hafthor would obviously be competing in the uncapped weight class - for example, if he were to compete in women's olympic weightlifting, his weight class would be 81kg+.
>What about an afab woman in the same sport, but she has some sort of intersex/hormone disorder she isn't aware of?
What about an afab woman who is unknowingly being blasted with roids by her trainer while she's asleep? What about her hard work?

>>36648783
Yeah or maybe he had dysphoria.

>>36647909
Is this bitch even on HRT? It's' been ten years and she still looks like a he and the skin and hair are horrible.

>>36650003
Women’s sports are literally a courtesy given to them so they stop bitching in the first place. The only independently successful ones are the ones where men can ogle their trained, athletic bods. Involving trannies breaks the carefully balanced equation the genders set up to maintain coexistence.

>>36650149
lateshit moment lol

>>36650488
>misogynistic babbling
As expected.

>>36647909
>anatomically correct pronouns
kek

>>36650559
None of that was misogynistic

>>36647909
This is what most people do. She/her to the face to avoid hurting them.

>>36651054
Males don't get to dictate what is or isn't misogynistic.

>>36651068
Yes they do

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84 KB JPG

>>36647909
There are literal 50 y/o crossdressers on Instagram who I would call 'she' because of how they present. This demon, along with Jessica Janiv and Dylan Mulvaney are just male-acting males, there is no 'she' in them. This guy should fuck off and pretend to be disabled or black instead of pretending to be trans

>>36647909
I frankly do not care about telling you, a cis person, what you should and shouldn't do. Things were much more to my preference when you guys didn't know or care about us and we more easily accessed your unfiltered reactions for unbiased analysis.
>pronouns
pronouns are only useful as feedback on whether you pass or not. If you have to tell people what your pronouns are or wear a pin or whatever that obviously fouls the experiment. If you don't pass her because you're early in transition that's a living hellscape. God has cursed us to walk through fire for a bit. I'm not sure why. If that's not your goal, if you don't want to approximate a woman morphologically as best you can, then we clearly do not have the same neurological condition and should not be considered the same thing. It's annoying that we are.
>bathrooms
bathrooms don't exist for uwu self validation. They exist to piss. One should piss where it is socially the most expedient to do so. If you look like a woman piss there, if you look like a man piss there. If you look like an in between thing then God help you that sucks I know. If there's no family bathroom pulling a hoodie over your head and slumping your shoulders and sneaking into the men's is generally the least socially awkward I've found.
>sports
I don't give a shit about professional sports. Have never paid to see them, I don't care. I don't get how some of these bitches even do it though. If I was twice the size of the other female.competitors and I utterly crushed them in a feat of strength it'd make me want to kill myself. So I specifically do not seek out scenarios where that will happen. Shocking to me that some people do. I assume we do not have the same neurological condition.

>>36648346
>As a doctor if he wanted a hysterectomy I would have to remind he is a male and does not have a uterus
that's a bafflingly weird scenario, sounds like you should refer for schizophrenia, doctoranon

>>36648374
youre probably from the same kind of people like americans who think 20% is transgender and there is some giant lobby when its really about like maybe tens of athletes who dont even dominate their fields, theyve been playing just fine for years too and it never happened, well maybe in next 5 yeears suddenly it will LOL

>>36648943
unironically yes, they dont think about normal girly looking 5'7" trans woman who looks feminine, they all have gorilla cis man or a boomer hon in their mind, anything else is expecting too much from tiny cis peoples brain

>>36648556
yes chuddie, we know ur transphobic and want to ban trans people, but normal average person would be capable of seeing that there maybe is more nuance to the topic and trans women on hrt, especially after years of it and starting before old age like 25 arent as close biologically to men as you seem to think. just look at actual data with a clear mind

>>36649049
extremely based
>>36649132
bhahaha, its not an airport sweetie, no need to announce your departure. you will not be missed anyway