This essay was published back in 1974. It argued that certain movements and currents within modern Christianity were Mormon-ifying it. It was written by a Mormon who viewed these as positive changes. I’m interested in your thoughts, given that a lot of you are interested in theology (especially old theology), ecclesiastical history, and things of that nature.https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1689&context=byusq
Mormonism is about as Christian as Islam is. It denies the trinity and the godhood of Jesus.They go really hard on the "CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, ANOTHER TESTAMENT OF JESUS CHRIST" branding and disguise themselves as Christians because it's more socially acceptable.
>>23325711>It denies the trinity and the godhood of Jesus.It does not deny the Godhood of Jesus. By misrepresenting another religion's beliefs you do yourself no favors. It does deny the Trinity, which is a later development that is no where to be found in the fundamental Christian scripture, the Bible. Joseph Smith's religion is the most concordant with the New Testament. Whether you believe this is because he literally restored the apostolic Church, or because he tried to exactly follow the record of the apostolic Church found in the Bible, is another question.
>>23325674Mormons are not Christians. Their baptisms are invalid. They are a henotheistic cult
>>23325711Islam has more to do with Christianity than Mormonism does
>>23325740>henotheisticSuch obscure (and distorting) word choice is typical of pseuds and e-Cath losers. You are probably a Fuentes fan. Do you really want to miss out on exaltation? That's a high price to pay for self-satisfied arrogance. I'll pray for you in the temple.
Christians are monotheistic and trinitarian, two things which Mormons are not. It's worth noting that even outside of those core doctrines, Mormons resemble many of the trappings of the Gnostic cults Irenaeus wrote against in his work, Against Heresies. Outside of my immediate reaction, his paper was interesting because of how often it brings up groups I have an active distaste for because they're either heretical or verge on heresy. Also,>only when an arab boy near the dead sea or archaeologists in northern egypt stumbled onto easily translatable records did we suddenly have the sources what do they show the laws of evidence become more and more compelling joseph smith had special contact with the original authors.lol
>>23325785>active distasteIf you were a real Christian you wouldn't feel "active distaste" but would feel sympathy and Christ-like pity. Really, you are a trad LARPer with hysterical ideological commitments
>>23325674There's so much going on that I would rather talk about this as I read on. What strikes me first from the writer is how unaware he is with Roman Catholism (I was born RC, so I'll talk solely from my experience), which already destroys most of his reasoning. The important reason Catholism has endured (besides how it's influenced history and culture still linger)is how unlike many other religions that have set values. While religions not mix well with new information or a revamping of old ideas for the modern day. Catholicism has, of course, set values and beliefs ,but Catholics believe in theological studies and changing the doctorine more than any other Christian religion I can think of. It's so dishonest to claim Catholics are rigid in their understanding compared to Mormons. Just by looking at the decisions made by the recent pope. Demonstrates that change is inevitable in how we understand and practice the teachings of the New Testament. Total bs for a Moromon to have that conclusion for his argument
>>23325674Mormonism literally begins with a claim that contradicts Scripture. It is just a cult. Mormons might be fine people, but they are not Christians. If they're attempting to infiltrate and "Mormonize" Christianity, I wouldn't be surprised.
ITT: nobody discusses the theme proposed by OPExcept maybe this guy >>23325812The catholci church never changed. Any changes it had were merely in style and approach.
>>23325793Is pity not a form of distaste? Is it impossible to dislike the heretical views of a group, while hoping the members of said group come to the truth of Christ?
>>23325812Starting on continuel RevelationI completely agree with the writer on Protestanism, which has a loss of mystery that conflicts with the happenings of the present day. That is how I've been interpreting Protestants becoming the most schizo of religious people lately.Nice, Gnosis comparsion. I agree with that insightThe authors' claim of Catholics not knowing Jesus' teaching about truth is moronic. It was the power structure of the Catholic Church in its previous historical state that didn't make this recognized for what it it.Man, this writer is such an asshole towards Catholics. But, his ship analogy does remind me of an idea I've had. Which is having Catholism be more prevalent in the U.S. through leftist politics. It rids the Church its notion of invicibility while also helping rl issues through more than just donations and worshippers practice. Jesus was a religious figure of his time, so this change wouldn't be radical. I can understand Protestants and other similar Christian religions merging. But, I can't see Christian religions joining Catholics. This "unified church" idea can't happen when theirs a hierarchy that can't be adopted. Why would religions that historically left the Catholuc church because of the hierarchy want to be part of that again?/2
>>23325785>Christians are two contradictory things about abstruse theological doctrine which is why Mormons are wrongInteresting.
>>23325860>The catholci church never changednta, but I guess it's just a figment of my imagination that Catholic Priests used to be allowed to marry
>>23325909It could be
>>23325674If we're taking a descriptive view, I don't think it's possible to argue that Mormonism is Christianity. If you were to have a more prescriptive view of what Christianity is and isn't you might answer otherwise.
The author interprets process theology as pro-Mormon, which is interesting
>>23325721>>23325758>>23325793Reminder that Joseph Smith>claimed some random Egyptian scroll was really a book of the Bible no one else knew existed, about ancient civilizations no one else knew existed, translated by way a language no on else knew existed (plus magic rocks)>was dead before he had to answer to the fact that the document about which these claims were made was revealed to be a random Egyptian priest's very standard obituary. The other document was conveniently taken away by the angels>previously got arrested for being a conman prior to his alleged visions>got fooled by the Greek Psalter hoax>got fooled again by the Kinderhook Plates hoax>committed bank fraud with his followers' money>waged an unsuccessful coup d'etat against the state of Missouri>demanded polygamous teenage wives from his followersbut anyway yeah those "tradcath larpers" are the real dumdums
>>23325956You're both retards.
>they have embraced Abraham as the rock, rather than, or in addition to, PeterWhat is he referring to here? I still see Catholics say Peter is the rock
>>23325892Patterns of Revision1) No, just no. Understanding sacraments doesn't mean no longer believing in them. This would be true for those who fully or almost fully believe in everything in the Bible is truthful, but not for Catholics or any other Christian religion with this same understanding2) Yeah, I can this way of thinking for my rl experience. When I was practicing, my priest made it very they were really into theology. The reason I thought I was going to stay Roman Calothic my entire life was how good my church's priest was as a theological expert. After he transferred the other priest (nice guy and good at being a priest), I didn't have an avenue theological issues I would think about ( inb4 called an atheist. Rn, I have just been in a crisis of faith for a couple of years) 3)Yeah, condemning books and art is dumb4) Dead wrong. This writer has a crude understanding of pilgrimages and shrines.5) I wonder if this something actually practiced at most Chruch's. From personal experience, Mary has kept her same reverence.6) Only psychos think this is a bad thing to believe in. Yes, it can be seen as a contradiction from New Testament teachings (if you're a bastard), but non-salvation is just the absence of God's love. There isn't enough information for one single interpretation of what this can mean. So it's better to believe that salvation can happen for everyone since that's actually aligned with most of Jesus's philosophy and teachings.I do think their should be some change in how catholic priest can live their lives. Maybe it should be that priests can have families or something else. I'm not sure what's a good solution, only that Moromons do have this edge. Mormons, according to their doctorine, just inherently breed an echo chamber that continuously multiplies. Their religion is more stable in growth compared to others, but that doesn't make it morally or ethically the way it sustains itself./3
>>23325956Those are all either misrepresentations or things that make Mormonism true. I can only imagine how insufferable a shitlib you would have to be to go out of your way to compose such a list
>>23325995Of Spirtual Gifts>The plea is that we must seek God's way of feeling, God's way of understandingI've never once heard of this idea as a good thing. The movie Silence ( I haven't read the book yet) demonstrates God's silence as good thing that must be understood for what it is (through faith, not theology). Wanting God to speak, through performing wants and a rl manifestated act, is highly frowned upon in the catholic church. This is yet another insane claim to make towards Catholics (not sure if protestants and Orthodox Jews believe this currently).Yeah, that's true on the speaking of tongues. I'm more optimistic about it since it is more than just Christian leaders. But I can see where his cynicism is coming from/4
>>23325773That guy was himself not a Christian.Tolstoy first and foremost rejected as far-fetched, such church dogmas as:The Trinity,The divinity of Christ (considering him first and foremost a man),The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary,The veneration of the saints,The promise of hell for sinners,And, at the same time, all the mysteries (sacraments) of the Church, considering them to be meaningless witchcraft.
>>23326026Of Sacred MarriageI am not interested and not knowledgeable on this sections subject. So I'm ignoring it.The document explosionI'm really curious about someone's take on the supposed discovery of Egyptian documents. Whether they're credible for religions, not just theological, and if the Welhausen Era is completely over because of it.Yeah, that stuff about Jehovah, Adam, and Eve is insane. It's just anti-STEM rhetoric. If we take that statement at face value.This guy really wants Catholics to adopt Gnoticism text, even when they don't fit the style of the New Testament at all.Once again, someone who knows theology really well. I want them to talk about the legitimacy of these "new" documents that have been discovered. Because to me, it seems weird to adopt text that doesn't match the subject, tone, philosophy , and style.It's really depressing that Moromon belief is to be happy with life and the status quo since their religion is more cult than an actual fully realized religious vision. The author is probably correct that Mormonism will prevail and succeed as the years go on. Not because it's correct according to their doctorine, it's because the other major religions are in a sour spot, Mormons have an echo chamber that continuously grows, and they flip any information into their doctorine since Moronism can interpret anything to fit, as long as it's optimistic for humanity and the worst parts of White American thinking prevails (if you're mad at White thinking statement, you're part of the problem).5/5 end
>>23325674I'm not devout, but Mormons have been mislead; their practices are undeniably heretical. As bad as the worst iterations of protestants and far worse than the eastern church. I'll quote you>modern Christianity>positive changesAnd I will ask you, on what authority do you recognize or accept these modern "changes" ? How do you reconcile your views with the tradition that has been passed down? You know better?
>>23326168>I'm not devouttypical anti-Mormon opinion haver
It originated in America which automatically makes it bad
>>23326246The world as a whole is being (unfortunately) Americanized, so wouldn’t that prove the guy in OP’s point?I have to say, I’m disappointed in how few are engaging with the post and are instead posting the same things about Mormons we already know.
>>23325711>It denies the trinity and the godhood of Jesus.I'm no mormon, but isn't it JWs who deny Jesus' divinity meanwhile mormons believe in tri-theism or something?
>>23326280Everyone already knows they aren't Christians
>>23326307Reread OP and at least the beginning of the essay. The question wasn’t “are Mormons Christian”
>>23326307Are Christians Mormonnot Are Mormons Christianis the question.
>>23326311>>23326312You are right I read wrong
>>23326285Mormons believe in countless gods who can form a union known as a “divinity.” God the Father (Elohim), God the Son (Jehovah), and God the Holy Spirit have formed such a divinity.This doctrine is so radical and different that the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize Mormons as heretics.https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html
>>23326314Why do you care about the opinions of a Church run by the lavender mafia? By the way Catholic bros, is God going to take out the lavender mafia anytime soon?
>>23326025>pointing out the verifiable fact that Joseph Smith completely made up the Book of Abraham means you are just a dumb woke libtard
>>23326446The Book of Abraham was revealed to him by the Holy Ghost. He never understood "translation" in the way this word is commonly used. If you study the story of Joseph Smith you'll be impressed by its improbability, which is why Guenon (who for the most part knew nothing on the subject) suggested Mormonism was the product of a conspiracy instigated by an organization (of which there is absolutely no evidence)
>>23326307>>23325753How people define Christianity is based on arbitrary assumptions. Mormons believe Christ suffered for the sins of the world, and that redemption comes only through Christ. Believing or not believing in Platonist metaphysical doctrines would seem rather secondary. Nicene Christians historically have intuitively perceived God as "anthropomorphic".
>>23325674Mormonism is not christianity. >believe in many gods >believe that you can become a god That alone proves it isnt Christianity. But even the Bible warns you not to believe in "another gospel" about "another Jesus," which is exactly what the Book or Mormon is.
>>23326489The Bible never connects that with the Book of Mormon. This is a spurious analogy that only a frightened pseud could make. However the Bible does talks about becoming like God:>The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.> Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?> Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.>The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:>And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.> And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
>>23325773>Let's blacks become priests, change rule set in place by Brigham YoungSorry didn't make it
>>23326489>>23326521I find it interesting how people saying these things about Mormonism never quote scripture, whereas the people refuting them do.
>>23326461If it was a divine revelation why did Smith explicitly say he translated it from the Egyptian scrolls? If it was divine revelation why would he even need intermediaries like the Egyptian scrolls and the golden plates?
>>23325721>which is a later development that is no where to be found in the fundamental Christian scripture, the Bible.The trinity predates Christ by centuries: El, Yahweh, Asherah.
>>23327874"El" is literally just an honorific title for "god." It is not a specific deity like Yahweh, although the word got used to refer to Yahweh more and more as time went on.
>>23327873As I tried to explain, by translation he did not mean actually decoding linguistic symbols and putting this meaning into English. He meant the process of revelation as it pertained to reproducing spiritual texts (as opposed to novel revelations as found in the Doctrine and Covenants). The golden plates and the scrolls served as aids to the revelation process. The record is clear that he wasn't looking directly at the plates while translation was taking place--that is to say, that this was never a secret or something he tried to hide.Receiving revelation is a highly complex process that requires incredible faith, it is quite understandable that have an intermediary (I'm not satisfied with this term) would be helpful. At least I don't see any good reason to believe that the use of intermediaries should be evidence of invalidity. Among the arguments against Joseph Smith, this is one of the weaker ones.You can believe what you want to, but a point I want to make that there is no evidence of subterfuge on the part of Smith. The strongest alternative explanation besides that Smith was a genuine Prophet, was that he was a mentally ill poet in the romantic tradition. The evidence for his ultimate sincerity, as well as the goodness of his heart, is very strongThe idea that Mormonism is "demonic" is a meaningless superstition inspired by fear and the pleasures of bigotryhttps://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2015/08/evaluating-mormon-church-185-years-on.html
>>23325909Priest are allowed to be married, however the majority of those in the Latin Rite choose the oath of celibacy. Byzantine Catholics however, do get married a lot as they don't have the same traditions of celibacy like those in the other Rite.
>>23325860> the catholic Church never changedRemember when you couldn't worship Amazonian demon idols in the Vatican? How about all those centuries where the pope claimed political jurisdiction over the entire universe based on now admitted forgeries (donation of constantine)?
>>23328439> byzantine CatholicsThe ones who still hold to the essence/energies distinction (a Catholic heresy for centuries) and still venerate post-schism, anti Rome Orthodox saints like St. Gregory Palamas?Or are you thinking of the Syrio-Malabar Catholics, who are in communion with you despite venerating Mar Nestorius as a Saint?Contradicting yourselves openly for purely political purposes (getting the most people to kneel to Rome as possible, theology be damned) can't be hand-waved as "having options".> t. Ortho
>>23328439>>23328642But to triangulate against the Mormon here and not just stab Catholicism, at least the Catholics have a claim to apostolic succession. Mormons are just Islam 2
>it's another thinly veiled MIDF threadAsk your bishop about second anointing, the blood tokens, or SEC release no. 96951 and get back to us.
>>23329003Everyone knows about those things. Your scare tactics have no effect on the light of the truth
>>23329034How do you know that Mormonism is true?
>>23329034>Everyone knows about those things>mfw getting told that second anointing was anti mormon bullshit during my teenage years>mfw getting a leaked copy of the bishop's handbook and reading that bishops should stonewall questions about it>mfw parents telling me the hand gestures in the endowment were just "symbolic" and represented "covenants" and shit >mfw they admit they did the full endowment with the verbalized suicide vows when they were my age>mfw seeing The Church (tm) buying shopping malls while wards have quadruple digit budgets and expect people to volunteer to clean the buildings for free because there isn't money to hire a janitor>mfw nu-mormons try gaslighting me about all of this shit and all other issues with mormonism every time I speak with them
>>23329068Its theology is the most rational since it's the only understanding of the Christian God which explains the existence of evil. The traditional understanding of God defies human logic, and there's no reason to believe that God would give us reason if we could not trust it.Joseph Smith being a legitimate prophet is easier to believe than that he made everything up. A creation such as The Book of Mormon is well beyond his capacities and there is little reason to believe someone helped or that there was a conspiracy involving multiple people. The fruits of Mormonism are overwhelmingly positive.Its less important to me if the Nephite or Lamanite were literally real civilizations though I suppose they could have been, or that Mormonism is 100% correct in every particular. It is indisputable that Joseph Smith was divinely inspired. The extent of that inspiration is what can be disputed.
>>23329096I have my problems with the Church/culture to the extent that it is bourgeois and conformist. Your concerns are valid and I of course overstated the case. I have had my own frustrations with Mormonism. However, such issues do not overrule the positive aspects of Mormonism, which are tremendous and which can only be attributed to its divine origin
>>23326112I like most of your analysis (despite being a Protestant) but > Mormons have an echo chamber that continuously grows, and they flip any information into their doctorine since Moronism can interpret anything to fit, as long as it's optimistic for humanity and the worst parts of White American thinking prevailsIs extremely out of touch with how actual Mormonism is going today. Basically every single white person under 45 in the church is either going to please their parents or being honest with themselves and dropping it, and most of the Mormon church’s growth is in the third world where they also have to compete with all the other American import religions like Pentecostalism and (if you can call it a religion) “wokeism”. Much like the rest of the Christian/Quasi-Christian world, it’s gradually shifting southward as the “White World” grows more and more secular
>>23328642>still venerate post-schism, anti Rome Orthodox saints like St. Gregory Palamas?Saints can still be wrong about things in life. We believe Jerome was wrong about the canon of scripture and Aquinas was wrong about the Immaculate Conception. Doesn't take away their saintliness in other areas. Not necessarily an issue for an Orthodox saint who wasn't formally excommunicated because we accept the Orthodox sacraments to an extent.>despite venerating Mar Nestorius as a Saint?Never happened. "Mar" is an honorific and does not mean saint; it is literally applied to living people. The Malabars just have a pseudepigraphical anaphora attributed to him (kind of like how Orthos have a bunch of fake Platonist bullshit attributed to Dionysius) that's used in their liturgy and we let them keep it for the sake of tradition.
>>23329149>Basically every single white person under 45 in the church is either going to please their parents or being honest with themselves and dropping itThis isn't true lol. It's truer than it has ever been and I get why you're saying this. The Church took big hits to activity during covid and this likely will continue for several more years
>>23329217>this isn’t true>it’s truer than it’s ever beenWhat’s the part that makes it not true? Like >>23329096 outlined, once you grow up and see “how the sausage is made”, it becomes impossible to take the church seriously. People would be more than willing to overlook Smith and Young being conmen and “chuds” if the modern church was taking care of it’s people, but it’s obviously not, and the top brass have no clear intentions of stopping so long as they can have tithes coming in from Samoa and the Philippines to replace Tom and Sally who left to start a yoga studio in Idaho.Even more likely is people don’t even care about the modern church and just think it’s more stimulating to goyslop out and act like “gentiles”.
>>23329126>>23329109>yeah your concerns are totally valid haha just Believe Harder (tm) and Doubt Your Doubts (R) and all the scary bad things about mormonism will go away>okay so maybe smith wasn't like a literal prophet haha maybe the book of mormon isn't really a factual record but if you move the goalposts just enough you can get a vaguely warm fuzzy feeling about it and that's good enough for it to be divine truth :)>of course this is what mormons always believed and taught no one ever thought the BoM was a literal historical record dont be silly >no mormonism isnt shrinking just ignore all the statistics that show the number of actual butts in pews every week is like ten percent of the membership numbers salt lake city reports, you can believe me I have a Testimony (tm) that The Church Is True (R)
>>23329034https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel/chapter-19?lang=eng
>>23329322>Caution: Exercise caution while discussing the doctrine of having our calling and election made sure. Avoid speculation. Use only the sources given here and in the student manual. Do not attempt in any way to discuss or answer questions about the second anointing.kek do Mormons really
>>23325674>Are Christians Mormon?No. Pic rel is what Mormons actually believe.
>>23329312You're misrepresenting what I said. It appears to me that you have bad intentions or have become a victim of contemporary nihilism and are looking for someone to blame for your problems. Freedom can only come by taking responsibility. The Mormon leaders who you feel misguided you were probably trying their best. Life outside of Mormonism is not good>>23329261Young mormons who practice mormonism believe in it. If you knew Mormons you would know it. Anon said that >Basically every single white person under 45 in the church is either going to please their parents or being honest with themselves and dropping itThis goes beyond hyperbole and should be corrected
lullk.
>>23329346>Life outside of Mormonism is not goodYou wouldn't know, now would you?And for the record, I *am* one of those white men under 45. Shit's dead as fuck, by mormon HQ's own admission less than 1 in 9 cradle mormons will continue attending into adulthood.
>>23325674First time I heard about Mormonism I was in my early 20s. Apparently a guy named Joseph Smith in the USA said he was a new prophet because he got some Egyptian tablets or something, and this meant he could marry a bunch of women, that Native Americans are actually Jews, that Jesus went to America and a bunch of other insane shit. Growing up a Catholic, I just thought it was probably a small cult, since anyone sane would realize how ridiculous the whole thing was, it sounds like a comedy skit making fun of Americans. I still can't get over how it actually is a legit religion. Maybe it doesn't sound as crazy to someone who grew up with it but to an outsider it's Scientology-tier nonsense.
>>23329453The darkness from exmormons is palpable. You should know what I'm talking about.What do you believe the meaning of life is?>by mormon HQ's own admission less than 1 in 9 cradle mormons will continue attending into adulthoodDo you have a source for this statistic. I don't deny it I'm just interested
>>23329502The claims of Catholicism are just as much "insane shit" by your highly effeminate "have a normal one" standards
>>23329516Americans have this reputation of being egomaniacs who make everything about them. Like, if they import a Japanese cartoon or European video-game or whatever, the protagonists have to be changed to Americans, they need to be eating burgers and so on, because America is the center of the universe. Mormonism sounds like Americans did to Christianity what they did with Godzilla in the 90s. Make it all about them and miss the point.
>>23329558Get your mind out of pop culture. You have no idea what you are talking about
>>23329568Ok anon. I'm sure Jesus went to America where you actually had ancient Jewish civilizations and it's a special place because you just had to make Christianity about America somehow, and this one conman actually had golden tablets written in a "reformed Egyptian" language that everyone knows is bullshit but somehow this religion is true. Some times I think evangelicals make some outlandish claims, but then I remember Mormons exist, things could always be worse I guess.
>>23329578All that cope for nihilism. All of the witnesses never retracted their testimony of the golden places, even though the left the Church. Starting with the fact you think Joseph Smith is a conman, we can dismiss your opinions entirely. You either no nothing about the subject, or nothing about religious, ecstatic and poetic experience in general
The essay in the op is genuinely interesting and thought-provoking, but this thread has been overtaken by emotional retards shitflinging back and forth>MORMONISM GOOD!>NO!! MORMONISM BAD!!>NO!!! MORMONISM GOOD!!!>NO!!!! MORMONISM BAD!!!!Better luck next time. Let’s try this again next month
