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well before it died, last thread was going well with a lot of good discussion. let us try to start again.
who is your least favorite POV in the series
for me, it's arya. i have never found her compelling. doubly so since she went off to braavos; her chapters feel like filler. she was only good when she was in the company of the hound.

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>>23350733
I never liked Aeron, but I loved what insights it gave to Euron, really he is Euron by proxy and that also makes him my favourite. Since Aeron seemingly dies in released chapter or dies the next so I wonder who will give us Euron chapters by proxy, maybe Sam?

Arianne Martell is also one of my least favourite, she has no foresight or any cunning

>>23350733
>who is your least favorite POV in the series
overall?
>Sam
he's just too boring and barely anything interesting happens in his chapters
hope that things will change now that's he is in the Citadel

others I don't particularly care for:
>Quentyn - also too boring but at least he goes out with a banger
>Melissandre - kinda ruined her character mistique for me, because internally she's so full of doubts
>Arienne - her chapters were fine and I enjoy the her insights into Dornish intrigue, but Arienne herself is just shallow (which does fit I guess)
>Brienne - her "quest" had funny moments, and admitedly her last 2 chapters were quite good, but otherwise meh
>Bran - when he's not dealing with magic I just want to speed read to skip foward
>Dany - the one I am most mixed about ; i really liked her in ACoK because she had few chapters, they were all set in cool as fuck locations, the House of the Undying was sweet and her chapters provided an interesting "meanwhile in this side-story halfway across the world" ; ASoS was also quite good for obvious reasons ; but in AGoT and ADwD, i am just "pls die in a fire you silly Targ bitch"

I have no issues with any of the other POVs

>>23350733
I like Arya but I think she shines in ACOK. I'm just meh on her Braavos stuff.

Least favorite out of all of them... Man, I think Dany really fell off in ADWD, so much so that she might've become my least favorite despite me enjoying her story from AGOT to ASOS. I really can't think of a character that I like less than her except maybe Arianne.

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this general is so comfy

What do northerners do for fun? Those Stark guys seem like real sticklers for duty.

>>23350733
Chett

>>23350733
Quentyn. ADWD Dany is bad too.

>>23350723
But that is John Jos. Miller anon, not GRRM

>>23351213
same phenotype, no one can tell the difference

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>>23351066

>>23351545
arya was talking about sansa here

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>>23350723
which of the starks do YOU think are going to reunite first?

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>>23350723
I wanted to make this thread because I had a gut feeling someone was going to fuck up the OP image. To the next anon that wants to make a thread with George in a cool airbrushed shirt, GRRM is the man on the far right of pic related.

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>>23351560
Physically? Jon and Rickon. But Jon and Bran will have a mental meet up before that. Benjen and Bran is also a possibility.

>>23351066
>What do northerners do for fun?
huh... drink, brawl and fuck I guess

>>23350733
Daenerys. Holy shit she is always the least interesting part of her setting. I wish Jorah was the POV character of her arc.

>>23350733
Sam without a doubt. He is so very one note
>I'm fat and pathetic and nervous all the time
He doesn't even give us a lot of interesting information about the citadel for the majority of his pov in Feast. I understand his character and I can confidently say that he should exist in the story but I'm praying that there's a time skip involved if we ever get his pov again so we don't need to hear Sir Pig squeeling for a dozen pages.
I actually enjoyed Arya a lot more on a reread, her chapters used to make my eyes glaze over in boredom but they're also one of the only povs that give you an insight into being a random ass peasant with no power in this world.

>>23351894
Now that he is in Old Town/Citadel and there is so much going on there in Winds, his chapters should get better. It's not like his chapters can get any worse.

>>23351066
Horse riding, hiking, hunting, swimming, fishing, sword practice, archery, and jousting, card games, board games, gambling on dog or cock fights, feasts, dancing, singing, juggling, story telling, play pranks on each other, they probably wrestle, and play games that show off their strength. I'm sure there are festivals and holiday celebrations too.

>>23351960
Northerners don’t like tourneys

>>23351969
Says who? They definitely have tournaments and competition, plenty of Northerners attend tournaments all over the seven kingdoms. North men probably don't like all of the pageantry involved in southern tournaments but they are for sure meeting up to find out who has the fastest horses and shit.

I'm surprised Cersei was never accused of doing anything with Joffrey. Considering the other allegations, her role with Jaime (which is public knowledge as a accusation at least), and the fact she wants to be queen so fucking bad (also fucks Lancel thus proving any relative will do in Jaime's absence).

Making Cersei do fucked up things is one of the few evil acts Joffrey didn't commit. Is it my imagination, or wouldn't the speculation of this happening be in line with other rumors based on public perception of them?

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>>23352009
>Is it my imagination, or wouldn't the speculation of this happening be in line with other rumors based on public perception of them?
No. I'm genuinely curious, I'm asking this with no malice or humor, but were you sexually abused as a child by a trusted adult? It's so common these days for people to just wildly jump to calling people pedos, real or fictional, with zero evidence. I'm trying to understand where it comes from. The last few threads about George always has at least one anon coming in and asking why he's never been accused of diddling children. That's an insane thing to ask.

>>23352028
I was actually, but I don't see the connection. I'm saying shouldn't the small folk and/or nobility perhaps think cersei would want to be queen (keeping influence as queen regent) bad enough to bed Joffrey. Keeping in mind the public allegations about her and jaime

>>23352038
>I'm saying shouldn't the small folk and/or nobility perhaps think cersei would want to be queen (keeping influence as queen regent) bad enough to bed Joffrey.
No, because her having sex with her adult twin brother, and wanting to remain queen regent, to guide their children as she deems fit, does not indicate that she has a thing for fucking them.
>but I don't see the connection.
You are more likely to think these things because of your experience. Hence the photo of DiCaprio I posted, that picture had half the internet calling him a pedo because he simply talked to a kid for a few minutes in broad day light, in public, surrounded by thousands of people, with hundreds of camera filming or photographing. Again that's insane behavior.

>>23351977
Ned thinks tourneys are folly in GoT, theres a line that implies this is a northern perspective.

It should be around the pov chapter where he first meets Gendry.

>>23352106
Ned is all traumatized because the tournament at Harrenhal lead to his sister's, older brother's, and their father's death. Ned being sour about tournaments means there's probably hasn't been one held in Winterfell for ages. But I highly doubt he speaks for all of the north, they for sure attend tournaments or competitions in the various towns and cities up there.

>>23352106
That's like Ned's opinion, many of his household guard took part in Hand's Tourney. Brandon jousted in Tourney at Harrenhall and Jorah Mormont won Tourney at Lannisport. I'm sure there are more examples than these

fat pink masts jutting into myrish swamps until her cunt became the world and under the table a bitch-hound thumped her tail as pups suckled on her bulging dugs while nuncle broke his fast on black bread, bacon burned black, and mulled wine while around him the planks of the ship groaned like a fat man taking a shit and in the privy the princess cursed as she shat but the more arbor gold she guzzled the more she shat until she was shitting brown water while she dreamed of riding her silver and nuncle smirked and bit into a lemoncake while capon-grease dripped down his chin onto the nipples of his breastplate and the boiled leather of his jerkin for did the princess not know words are wind and winter is coming and a lannister always pays her debts and you know nothing jon snow and dark wings bring dark tidings and oh my sweet summer child this is nothing but a mummers farce and she could be fucking lancel and asha and moonboy for all nuncle knows before sticking them with the pointy end but where do whores go and the night is dark and full of terrors but nuncle is the blood of the dragon while the princess is merely a girl of five and ten who knows little of the ways of manhoods and the north remembers and if they look back they are lost and what is dead may never die and fear cuts deeper than swords. Har! Heh. HODOR

>As knighthood is rare in the North, the knightly tourney and its pageantry and chivalry are as rare as hen’s teeth beyond the Neck. Northmen fight ahorse with war lances but seldom tilt for sport, preferring mêlées that are only just this side of battles. There are accounts of contests that have lasted half a day and left fields trampled and villages half–torn down. Serious injuries are common in such a mêlée, and deaths are not unheard of. In the great mêlée at Last Hearth in 170 AC, it is said that no fewer than eighteen men died, and half again that number were sorely maimed before the day was done. (TWOIAF)

I devoured Jordan's WoT but could not get into Martin's SoI&F. I read the first book and had the second book on hand but I just wasn't particularly interested.
This was like 20 years ago.

>>23352311
is there some kind of point to this post that I'm not getting?

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KING Joffrey BARATHEON und Queen Arianne Martell

>>23350723
Jaime and Brienne going to get married or at least have a baby. Who agrees and disagrees and why?

>>23352311
Opposite for me. WoT didn’t have enough characterization

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>>23350733
>who is your least favorite POV in the series
For me it's Daenerys. George really captured the feeling of being inside a teenage girl's head, and it's hell.

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>>23352106
Could be to do with 18 needless deaths
>The mêlée at Last Hearth was a great tourney held by House Umber at Last Hearth in 170 AC. At least eighteen participants were killed and at least twenty seven men were maimed during the contest,

>>23353378
Damn, made me realize that in fucking book 5 she still on Essos with no Westeros in sight for her, brutal, Martim will be gone before he finished the story, thanks good I abandoned the series already and don't care that much anymore.>>23353383

>>23352281
>only just this side of battles
I’m retarded, someone explain to me what this means.

>>23353873
It means that they're almost actual battles.

>>23353873
The melees are so intense and chaotic that they are comparable or close to actual wars.

I went back and read it again before reading those posts, realized what it meant.

Thankfully this type of retardation doesn’t rear its head too often when I’m reading the series.

>>23350733

Faceless Men said they would tell Arya their lore and origin if she fully converts if she does and we get an entire chapter about their history that would be cool in Winds.

I'm going to be unoriginal and say I did not care for Qunetyn's even with the way it ended. Everything about the journey was just pretty dull. In fact I really don't find the Dorne plot al lthat engaging at all probably my least favourite out of the big storylines but I am interested in seeing where Arianne's chapters go in Winds just because they will be getting more glimpse and insights into Aegon and Jon Connington's camp.

>>23352311
>>23352311

I read Ice and Fire when I was a teenager many years ago what made Martin fun for me to read back then was that his writing is very immersive and his foreshadowing is also good which gives the books more re-readability picking up and catching clues you didn't miss first time around. I tried reading The Eye of the World around the same time I finished A Game of Thrones but just didn't have the same impact for me or impress me it just felt like it was trying too hard to emulate Tolkien. I just did a re-read of TEOTW recently because I found all the books pretty cheap and I decided to give the series another chance, I like how both Martin and Jordan influence each other and vice versa I think because Martin and Jordan are two different types of writers GRRM is more of a gardener while Jordan feels much like a painter with the way he needs to overly describe everything. I'm finding WOT a little bit of a slow burn but at the same time it's like Jordan is just adding in bits and pieces of an even bigger canvas making the world much more richer.

>>23354024
I started reading ASOIAF in elementary school, and when the librarian saw me checking out the book he suggested that TEOTW might be more appropriate for me. I've loved both series since.

R + L = J and D

About two years went by before Lyanna died. Enough time for birthing two kids.

It resolves Dany’s red door issue as Ned could’ve taken her to Dorne before going back north.

And it resolves why Ned thought of “promise me Ned” after failing to stop Dany’s assassination order.

It still allows L to be J’s mom which we know for sure is canon.

It doesn’t conflict with this post about Jon being 8-9 months older than Dany. https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

Prove me wrong.

>>23354253
Good theory desu but I hope both of them turn into monsters and we get more interesting characters taking over.

>>23352311
I like 'em both a lot but I think WOT's lows are too low. If WOT had been condensed (maybe 10 books, if not even less) it would've been very good. Still love it, warts and all.

But ASOIAF is pretty damn good, especially books 1-3. I'm not even sure I should judge books 4 and 5 since I'm gonna have to read the payout in Winds to see if it was all worth it but we'll see. As of now, Dany's part of the story is atrocious

>>23350733
Arya and Dany suck. I think in my read of the series I sometimes skipped Dany is there was an interesting pov like Jon or Tyrion next.

>>23354253
>Azor Ahai Prince that was promised is actually a unisex term
>R + L decide to have mutiple kids to ensure they get at least 1 of each to make sure
makes sense to me desu
So Jon and Dany are really old school targs and aren't aunty and nephew but full blown siblings.
That also explains how Rhaella was able to have a kid despite being barren and having miscarriges after having Viserys. She didn't and it was her granddaughter.
Only hole is that Viserys would be old enough to know dany isnt his little sister but he never implies or infers such an idea

>>23353316
I think they will fall for each other if things calm down for them, and Brienne's autism takes a back seat for a bit. I don't think Jamie will marry or have more children. He does not want to be the head of his house, he only wants to be in the kings guard and he's coming to a point where he's falling out of love with his family.

>>23355168
If we assume that Dany’s memory about being raised for a time in Tyrosh is false (because of those damn lemons), then we can verify Viserys and/or those who sheltered them were lying to Dany and/or Viserys.

This at least makes it possible that Viserys doesn’t have all the facts (since he was 8 at the time) and/or is lying to Dany because she still suits his purpose.

>>23355168
>>23354253

I'm thinking it will be the following

Rhaegar + Lyanna= Jon(Aemond), Aegon, and Daenerys

Maybe this could be the Star Wars twist GRRM talked about a while ago. I'm also thinking Daenaerys will emulate the original Aegon the Conqueror but will be an inversion Instead of having sister wives it will be brother husbands to help get the Targ birthrate back up

>>23355560
So fAegon the fake targ and secret mummers dragon and blackfyre is actually the real Aegon? Think that ruins Varys and Illyrio arcs and planes, unless Dany is going to reunited the rogue blackfure dynstay and bring them back into the royal like, just in time for the abolition of monarchy and the feudal system in Westeros. I do like Dany having 2 husbands though, inverse of the conquerer

Confess to me, in what moment you decide to stop caring about song of ice and fire? Me? After GOT ended with not Winds of Winter on sight, I decided to let it go and accept that the series won't ever be finished.

I think something holding back George is that his themes/message is in conflict with the world he’s spent so much time developing.

If the general message is that war is bad, and a major part of this message is shown through the Long Night 2.0 being a catastrophic event, then why put effort in all the politics.

For the LN2.0 to have the thematic weight it needs, the political intrigued of the vast majority of houses needs not matter and/or end in very unsatisfying ways.

Will Bronn have a hand in using his influence as a new lord to assist Aegon?

Will Aegon successfully conquer Westeros?

Will the Frey murders be solved?

Will Rickon and Jon come to blows over being Lords of Winterfell?

Will Arya mark all the names off her list?

Who gives a shit if the Others properly invade?

The story is a big beautiful intricate house, made to just be destroyed. And I doubt fans will appreciate the rubble.

My ultimate final cope is that he started writing winds of winter but it kept progressing to be far too big for one book so he was forced to move a lot of the content into a dream of spring and he's now working on that book to release them together when it's finished or he dies. And the reason he has released winds of winter is because it cannot stand on its own as it needs a dream of spring to continue the story

>>23355560
>brother husbands
No self respecting man would ever do or want this.

Anon, you are hereby named as King Anon, king of the Andals, and the Rhoynar and the First Men. Lord of the seven kingdoms and protector of the realm.

What is the fist thing you would do?

>>23356786
Genocide the Iron Islands. Iron Islanders are objectively the worst culture in Westeros. Everyone would be better off if they were wiped out.

>>23355802
the last two books haven't stood on their own either

>>23356786
Where am I timeline wise in the story and how much do I know?

As far as general policy, probably shore up relations with the southern houses as much as possible. I need to repel Ironborn and Essos invasions.

>>23356791
Dareon I shit. But you are correct.

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>>23350723
Words of Wisdom:
Winds of Winter is coming. Soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnXbOSpZ0fI

>>23357034
Out of all of the cultural groups of Westeros, the Ironborn make the least sense from a worldbuilding or even common sense perspective. I get that George wanted to have vikings, but c'mon, he could have at least tried a little harder.

>>23357080
Jesus christ tell this faggot to get to the fucking point

>>23356804
AFFC is good just very unfocused.

But yeah ADWD is hot garbage.

>>23357098
I never understood how they sustained themselves in the Iron Islands without all developing scurvy or being extremely malnourished. Is that why they're all so retarded?

>they find fruit on le raids!!!

Joffrey should have obliterated these parasitic, retarded sea nigs from existence instead, why are they still tolerated an allowed to exist? Their only cultural attribute is that they're rapists and thieves who claim independence every 10 years.

I'd rather live among 100 Tyroshi sellswords and greasy braavosi traders than a single unwashed, retarded Iron Islander.

>>23357080
Massive copium

>>23357347
ADWD would be a lot better if the climax wasn't literally cut from the story. Some of the battles were supposed to happen in ADWD but the publisher wanted the book out ASAP. Now we will never know.

I'd have much more respect for George if he outright told us years ago that he had burned out and will not continue asoiaf for the foreseeable future, instead of lying about working on it and getting pissy when people ask for progress reports.

>>23355314
He can move to Tarth with Brienne

>>23351774
When I was first watching, my instinct was that she was being set up to tick all the boxes of a stereotypical heroic character, but then be a vile bitch so that Martin could subvert the chosen princess saving the world.

I eventually decided that this was not the case but that's how the writing of her felt to me.

Did George want Jon and Arya together while he was writing the first book?

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>>23358205
It was part of the original outline for the series, yes.

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Do you think the Aegon show will be treated as its own separate series, or will it be titled something like House of the Dragon: Origins with a more fitting name? George has talked before about HOTD continuing past the dance, meaning he'd want it to encompass more than just the current era. Maybe they'll eventually connect?

>>23358798
I'm hoping that he pushes for HBO to consider each series a separate canon so that a GoT or aSoIaF rework is possible in the long future ahead.

>>23355624

I think Daenerys will legitamize Aegon no matter what if it is to strengthen the Targ dynasty again but I don't think we're ever going to get an actual answer on Aegon's actual background and parentage since it makes him that much more compelling of a character.

>>23358798

It'd be neat if House of the Dragon actualy ends with Robert's Rebellion kind of bookending the series having it segue into the main series

>>23358859
Me too. I think the rise and fall of more political intrigue to wartime story arcs of the history will do well for a long-running series

>>23358859
>Aegon the Conqueror into HOTD into Dunk and Egg into GOT
Would be amazing if they could pull it off, but I doubt they will and knowing that with each new season you get inexorably closer to the shitshow latter half of GOT would probably put a bit of a damper on the experience.

If you don't inexplicably find yourself saying "like as not" or " near enough as makes no matter" in your day to day speech then are you even a fan?

>>23354253
>About two years went by before Lyanna died
If you didn't wanna check the books you could've at least checked the wiki. Lyanna gets captured months after the tourney in harrenhal (282AC) and Robert's rebellion doesn't even last a year ending in 283AC. There's barely enough time for her to pop one kid, much less two.

>>23359452
I once asked my friend if he wanted to break fast with me, and he looked at me like I was a retard.

>>23350723
i've been reading /x/ and think i found out how to make him eat to death
well faster

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Is it true he only types with his right index finger?

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>"Do you have a little wife, ser?"

>No, I have a sister. "What color is my cloak?"

>"White," she said, "but your hand is solid gold. I like that in a man. And what is it you like in a woman, m'lord?"

>"Innocence."

Is Jaime a fellow based chud who is looking for a virgin tradwife since he is totally shutting down whores?

>>23357828
Words of Wind.

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>>23360787
He’s been waiting his whole life for his trad virgin waifu Brienne. Honorable and innocent

>>23352009
It is kinda funny that the public rumors in the story about Cersei never seem to be worse than what she is actually doing, but to be totally fair having children with your brother, murdering your husband, trying to pin false adultery charges on your daughter-in-law, burning a valuable building because you're paranoid your midget brother is lurking within, and having some henchman make an undead monster for you is so wild that it makes the crazy trash Procopius made up sound normal.

Then again Cersei is so far up her own ass that she doesn't pay attention to what commoners are saying like Tyrion did. After Tyrion left there's no longer any King's Landing viewpoint that isn't Cersei, so what insanity is going on outside the Red Keep and Great Sept is unknown.

Need nights watch vidya

Why didn't Aegon V's marriage to Betha lead to some skinchanging targs?

>>23361335
would prefer a Dungeon Crawler set in the ruins of Valyria

>>23359452
hearing people (usually american youtubers) say sweet summer child always gets a chuckle from me

>>23360181
Both index fingers iirc. I do remember him commenting on it. He's done it for so long that he's decently fast at it.

>>23361335
That would be fun

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Why the hell is Sansa's moment where she builds a snow-castle considered to be such a big deal by some fans? This moment even has a bunch of its own fanart.

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>>23363852
I mean...

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>>23363854
... what the hell is so important about a damn snow-castle

>>23363852
Haven't really thought about the series ever since the show ended and I figured the books would never be finished, but man, something about this image really takes me back to the times I was really into ASoIaF and the show. Watching the episodes at night with my father after waiting months for a new season to start, discussing the books with him, thinking endlessly about all the theories. It feels kinda silly to say because it wasn't really that long ago, but it has a very nostalgic feeling tinged with melancholia. Okay, blog-post over.

>>23363858
high kino scene, shows Sansa despite all the abuse and horror shes been through is just a kid who misses her home and family and trying to survive. Shes a young teenager and she has a lot of walls up to protect herself hoping that someone is going to save her, like the snow walls of her snow Winterfall her walls are easily broken by powerful men (Littlefinger, joffery, the hound) and powerful women (lysa, cersei) but she still tries to protect herself despite her naivety and innocence.
Also vague foreshadowing of Winterfell being buired in snow in the coming second long night when Winter truly arrives. Snow being cold and bringing death and being a represenative of the Others who are coming to seige Winterfell and quite likely take it for themselves. unlike the show they will not be defeated or dealt with there, most likely they will trap Stannis and his army there and that will be how Stannis dies.
Like how the show which has his army lead a last futile charge aganist the boltons, I think Stannis will lead a last charge from winterfell aganist the army of the dead, like at helms deep with king Theodon charging out one last time, but they'll be no gandalf and he'll die fighting.
Off topic though Sansa despite being a naive dumb horny teenage girl is quickly being much more cold and calculated and really I think her building the snow caslte with sweet robin will be her last moment acting her age and acting sweet and innoncent she'll become much more cold and calculated and possibly a rival to Dany alliance when she comes.

Were these books ever good?

>>23364103
based analysis. The scene always stood out to me, even on first read. ASOIAF being as bleak as it is, it was nice to see a moment of sweetness even if it's a character's way to cope with the situation she's in and it shows how much the Starks miss Ned and Catelyn. This is where Littlefinger then kisses her, right? Everything falls to shit right after but it was nice while it lasted lol

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Excluding Tyrion, it seems like all the viewpoints /lit/ dislikes are George's favorites.

>>23364286
George is a fat limp-wristed leftie fag no shit his favorite characters are the strong womyn girlbosses and the fat retard

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>>23357080
I call dibs on his keyboard.

>>23364133
Yes, they're very well written. The first 3 are worthwhile. The next 2 remain unfinished.

>>23364293
The fat retard character is actually based, unlike Sam.

>>23364293
He's losing faith in the left.

>>23363852
Women. They love to self-insert as Sansa and this scene is smut for them. The moment itself has nothing noteworthy but when compounded with Sansa's meek innocence and the plot thus far... a fan of misery porn could not have asked for more de rigueur display of the trope.

>>23363852
>>23363854
>>23363858
the scene is contrasted to Jon's dream where he beheads Robb and cries out that he is "the Prince of Winterfell".
Beheading Robb isn't literal since we know it isn't Jon who kills Robb, rather beheading Robb is a symbolic renunciation of the old Stark ways of honour for which Ned and Robb both died.
Sansa is building Winterfell which symbolises how she will rebuild it and by extension the North and house Stark. Her hands will mold it out of snow, Jon Snow, who will be the king in the North who will need her help to rule their realm.
There are also some interesting opposites:
Jon dreamt - Sansa was awake
Jon destroys - Sansa rebuilds
Jon will be dead (resurrected) - Sansa will be reborn (abandoning littlefinger and becoming Sansa Stark once more)
Jon is North in snow and is Snow (ice) - Sansa is south and is a redhead (fire)
the interaction of these two will mold Winterfell, the North and house Stark into something new and it will be bittersweet because thoguh they come out on top in the conflict, it will not be the same as when they were children. the old North of Ned's honour will die. this is represented by the snow castle being destroyed. What Sansa will build with Jon will be something new, molded from the old.

I just came up with this on the spot while shitting, solely to demonstrate how easy it is to overanalyze lines btw

>"I told Robb I’m sure to give him twins. An Eddard and a Brandon. He liked that, I think. We . . . we try most every day, my lady. Sometimes twice or more.” The girl blushed very prettily. “I’ll be with child soon, I promise. I pray to our Mother Above, every night.” "
>"[S]he thought about Jeyne. The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important."

what are the lore implications of Robb losing the war and the lives of his mother his men and himself because he wanted to PLAP?

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>>23364447
>I just came up with this on the spot while shitting, solely to demonstrate how easy it is to overanalyze lines btw
nice backpedalling jonsabro

>>23364103
>horny
I don't remember a single point in the books were Sansa was horny or showed an interest in sex. The closest thing I can think of was her crush on Loras.
>>23364403
>Women love to self-insert as Sansa
The prevalence of the Hound/Sansa ship among female readers also stems from this trend. If Sansa is the main self-insert character for women, who is it for men?
>>23364447
>Sansa will abandon Littlefinger
I keep seeing people predict this, and I don't see it happening.

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>>23365309
>20 years of dumb theories
>tv series making him the de facto main character
>who is it for men?

>>23365309
>I keep seeing people predict this, and I don't see it happening.
There's no real hard evidence that it will happen, just a logical conclusion based on established trends in storytelling. But it could very well be that we get a le epic subverted expectations moment and have Sansa fall head over heels for LF and never want to leave him. Would suck big time honestly

>>23365309
jon obviously, or if you're "based", davos.

>>23363852
>>23363854
>>23363858
It's because all the rest of sansa's chapters are just uninterrupted misery porn up to that point. her POV is mostly detailed descriptions of all the horrible stuff that happens to her and how miserable she is in her situation, her internal monologue is all about how to cope with misery. this makes the snow castle moment stand out strongly because none of that stuff is happening.

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Currently reading ADWD for the first time, and was blindsided by picrel. A 14-year-old with flat yet milky boobs? That's the most fetishistic shit I've read yet in this series. How has this not become as infamous as some of the other shit in the series?

>>23365707
wtf lol that's nothing. literally breastfeeding a baby with no detail, that's what breasts are for. honestly it speaks more to your character that this throws you after reading through everything else

>>23365817
How the fuck does a 14-year-old have milk?

>>23366014
If it was common to give birth at that age back then I assume they just do (like any woman after giving birth)

>>23366014
How does a woman normally get milk?

>>23365707
>>23365817
>>23366014
>>23366023
>>23366085
>George is now observing this thread with great interest.

>>23364103
>will be her last moment acting her age and acting sweet and innoncent she'll become much more cold and calculated
that's not the sense I got from AFfC
while she is no doubt getting more politically savvy due to Petyr's influence (and the simple fact that she has to, otherwise she'll just be at the mercy of whoever she's custody of), I think she's not discarding her nurturing and kindness which are her most "heroic" traits, she's simply developing a better judment of people and from now on she realised to share that sweetness only with those whom she trusts or simply those that actually deserve it

>>23366014
Wtf is this question? Its all hormones and the baby sucking on her tits that keep her producing milk for years to come. After a girl bleeds she's a woman in full.

>>23366014
Are you twelve? This is covered in basic biology and sex education. Hormones produced through pregnancy cause lactation. It's rare but sometimes teen girls will produce a bit of milk without being pregnant. Men can produce breast milk as well. And breast size does not have an affect on how much milk a woman can produce.

>>23365707
shes 14 and producing milk because she was raped and impregnanted and probably miscarried. Its a feudal society and woman are property and objects. We don't see all the horror that is happening in Westeros so George gives us little glimpses like this to remind us how evil this system is and how woman and girls are abused.
And again tit size doesnt determine how well you breastfeed

>>23366014
Nigga, what school did you go to? This is probably the stupidest thing I've read on /lit/

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>>23350723
I WANT WINDS OF WINTER NOOOOOOWWWW!!
MY HECKIN MIND CAN'T TAKE THIS TORTUREINO!! WHY DOESN'T THIS FAT FUCK RELEASE IT ALREADY???!!!

>>23367058
This, but unironically.

>>23367022
>because she was raped
Not everything concerning sex has to accompany a crime or some form of abuse. It seems like people constantly forget that teenagers have consensual sex with other teenagers.

>>23367022
>my evil feudal society where women have no agency
>George caring about any of that
You've lost me

>>23366313
Does Sweet Robin deserve her kindness?

>>23368199
He kind of sucks but it's not his fault at all, and he's about to be screwed out of his birthright. So yeah she should be kind to him, plus he's her little cousin and she's rapidly running out of family members.

Are 2 books enough to adequately explore/flesh out the Others?

>>23367022
She could just have a child too old to breastfeed. Girls only stop lactating after a they miss a feed or two.
>>23368245
Do they need to be fleshed out? As long as there's a way to stop them it's fine to keep them mysterious.

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>>23368245
I don't want them to be fleshed out. In my mind they are in the "magic" category, things that do not and probably should not be explained. They're like dragons and the Children of the Forest. We don't need sprawling stories concerning their origins, personalities, society, relationships, politics, and culture. They just need to make an appearance and progress the story.

What is your choice for the most underrated POV in the series? A POV that most people hate or rarely mention.

>>23368677
I'm fond of Cersei. She's such a dumb, paranoid cunt.

>>23368677
Cat gets too much hate. she did nothing wrong. i mean obviously she did everything wrong, but there was literally no way she could have known the results. she constantly makes rational decisions based on the information she has and then gets JUSTed anyway because she exists to suffer.

>>23367058
I feel ya, anon. I feel ya. I've been waiting for 8 years, I can't imagine what it's like for people who follow the series since it came out

>>23368677
>>23368722
Gotta agree with Cat. She's a cool character and I think it showcases how desperate a mother gets when her children are in danger and she'd do anything to preserve their lives. Of course, it always blows up in her face but that's her arc, I guess.

I also think Bran gets unjust hate. I've seen a lot of people complain about how boring his POVs are but I never felt anything like that through neither of my read-throughs. In fact, his arc is one of the ones I find most fascinating because even though we kinda know what his fate is with the weirwood network, the specifics are eluding me. I can't wait to see what info he brings since GRRM barely gives us any historical flashbacks (if any) so I think Bran is going to be a good excuse for exposition

>>23368245

>2 books enough to explore The Others motivation, exposure on them, war, etc

See as much as I love The Others they are my favourite part of the lore I really don't think we'll be getting 7 books as planned and this is where we might need an eight book. What GRRM could do is if The Long Night actually comes to fruition is extended to A Time for Wolves which could still happen but what he needs to do is use The Winds of Winter to finish up every arc in the present before he can move onto stuff dealing with The Otherrs, Azor Ahai, etc. Maybe have book seven act as a bridge in between The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. Have Winds solve everything then start A Time for Wolves with a massive time jump like he originally planned, showing the desolation and destruciton that The Others invasion of Westeros has brought after the ocllapse of the wall. It could still be a generational book like he always wanted to do the characters would all be at least a decade older from when we last saw them only now rather than dealing with petty nodle lords squabling over stupid political intrigue games they are dealing with potentially saving the wolrd and humanity from the existantialist threat of The Others.

>>23367058
>>23367058
>WHY DOESN'T THIS FAT FUCK RELEASE IT ALREADY???!!!

Anon he's probably rewriting Aegon's invasion of Westeros for the 6th time.

Based off how he wrote ADWD in >5 years where he wrote thousands of pages of Quentyn arriving in time, weeks after Dany's wedding, and ultimately, right before the wedding, it's clear his gardening writing style is highly inefficient when dealing with interweaving plotlines. He can't just "write" the story. He has to write it all out and it still remain coherent with the other PoV plotlines. He's hard committed to not increasing the number of PoV characters, but at the same time, it was inventing the Barristan PoV that allowed ADWD to get published.

>>23368768
See, I like em both. The political games and the Others. It was interesting to see a looming threat while the people of Westeros were fighting petty squabbles. That being said, I feel like the political games really bog everything down in AFFC and ADWD, especially since George adds like a million new subplots on top of the unresolved ones.

>>23368722
Her bad decisions are made under significant emotional strain too
>captures tyrion because he discovered her and she believed he had recently tried to murder her son
>frees jaime literally the same day she was told bran and rickon were dead

I find it adorable we still pretend he's even writing it. He's moved on to greener pastures (including spinoffs and history of ASoIaF). He will die before wow releases

>>23368770
>gardening writing style
i swear george literally made this up as an excuse for not having any fucking clue where you're going with any of your ideas. he's a gardener trying to build a house

Just for the sake of discussion and to show just how crazy GRRM went with new subplots, I'm gonna try and write down every unresolved subplot as of ADWD. If I miss something please
point it out because it's been 7 years since I last read the books:

>Jon's killed just as he led a march to Winterfell
>The mutiny at the Wall
>Melisandre at the wall
>Bran only just reached Bloodraven
>Jojen was about to die
>Dany is stuck in the middle of a field surrounded by mongols while Barristan is in a burning city going to shit
>Tyrion just bought the Second Sons and is supposedly trying to rally Dany's cause
>FAegon and JonCon just landed in Westeros and attacked
>Whatever dumb shit Arianne is doing + the whole Martell conspiracy
>Quentyn's companions are still alive and with Dany
>The fat Manderly got stabbed in the neck, probably bled to death. In house fighting between Freys and Manderlys in Winterfell.
>The pink letter
>Stannis stuck in the ice, we don't know whether Ramsay Snow is lying
>Stannis received a huge loan from the Iron Bank in Braavos
>Theon manages to save Jeyne Poole but is probably gonna get executed by Stannis. Hears the ravens or crows talk to him
>Asha is in the ice, as well
>Davos is on his way to Skagos
>Undead Cat is about to judge Jaime and Brienne, presumably holding Podrick Payne captive
>Cersei asked for trial by combat
>Varys is still around King's Landing, kills Kevand + his plans with Illyrio
>Arya is getting trained as a faceless assassin
>Samwell is in Oldtown just as Euron is sailing the seas nearby
>Victarion I think is nearby Barristan's radius
>Howland Reed hasn't even made an appearance yet
>Jaime's dreams
>Cersei's prophecy about the valonquar who would kill her
>Sansa stuck in the Eyrie with Littlefinger
>The Others are closing in
>Patchface's prophecies
>Rumors of the Hound still alive
>The Freys are still alive
>Robb's letter that hasn't been disclosed, which presumably names Jon Snow as the heir of Winterfell
>The crypts below Winterfell

There's probably tens of more that I'm not even remembering. Anyways, just how the hell does George think he will be able to wrap this all up in 2 books at the glacial speed the books are?

>>23368835
For each grouping of subplots t get the time they deserve to resolve he almost has to split the books and spread that shit thin. Honestly this is looking like a case of "good start, impossible end". It's gonna be Robert Jordan all over again. Branderson wins again

>>23368684
I agree. AFFC is actually my favorite book because of Cersei's chapters. I'm biased for any chapters that take place in King's Landing, and Cersei's chapter all do. Also, her chapters are fun as shit to read. George really drops the subtlety he usually employs in POVs, and lets her batshit crazy and dumbass nature shine through.

>>23368835
To add to this
>Rickon is too young to be safely warging with Shaggydog.
I think that Rickon, when he shows up again, will turn out to be either semi-feral or a very old-school Stark. I mean the latter in the sense that honor and duty don't matter to him like they did to Ned.

>>23368835
>>23368854
I think it's possible in 2 books, not all of these plots need a meaty conclusion, a lot of stuff can get swept away and left implied, or happen between chapters, time skips etc and be just as impactful. it happens a lot, i remember reading the books for the first time as a teenager and thinking i'd missed pages and going back, only to realise there was a small timeskip or something happened outside of POV.

>>23368835
You missed
>Shaka, when the walls fell

>>23368835
>Varys is still around King's Landing, kills Kevand + his plans with Illyrio
Pycelle is dead too. It isn't clear how many people from the Small Council are dead, but it's meant to drive Cersei even further on the brink because it's her allies on the small council and she is meant to suspect the Tyrells. Qyburn's status is completely unknown, but I'd assume he's alive.

I'd add
>Gilly and Monster are on a boat with Archmaester Marwyn headed to Meereen to see Daenerys and her dragons
>Mance Rayder and his spear wives are seeding chaos in Winterfell while posed as a traveling musical troop stuck there due to the weather
>Possible consequences and spreading of Jon Con's greyscale
>Shireen, Stannis and Melisandre are all in three completely different locations so "burning Shireen" seems logistically impossible at this point.
>The Blackfish Escaped Riverrun
>The Tattered Prince's identity hasn't been revealed yet

>>23368887
Hope Rickon doesn't go out like he did in the show

>>23368891
It could be possible but it'd have to be rushed, imo. If we wanted a good meaty ending as you say, it would definitely have to be more than 2 books.

>>23368975
Don't even remember Shaka but noted

>>23369068
Didn't remember any of those either. However, I just remembered
>Coldhand's identity
>Benjen Stark, if we ever hear from him again
>Ned Stark's bones which were on the way to Winterfell

>>23350723
I love this fatty like you wouldn't believe

>>23369097
>>23368887
I think GRRM's intention was there to be a succession crisis at Winterfell after the Boltons are defeated, that's SUPPOSED to mirror the unwritten She-Wolves of Winterfell Dunk and Egg book.

Rickon has the strongest claim as the remaining legitimate male child, but is literally 4 years old and has spent the last year inside of his wolf so all he wants to do is jump on all fours and dryhump women, since Shaggydog is definitely fucking on Skaagos.

Sansa has a strong claim as the oldest living legitimate child of Eddard, and presumably will have the Vale army backing her. Her unconsummated marriage with Tyrion will be a huge factor here, as well as any betrothals "Alayne Stone" has.

And then there's the fire wight, Jon Snow, the oldest male child, legitimized and named heir of the North by Robb Stark in his will. But he's turned into Melisandre's puppet and will not going to be the same person he was before death. Many arguing whether or not he's still committed to his Night's Watch vows or a deserter.

>>23369124
>Rickon has spent the last year inside of his wolf so all he wants to do is jump on all fours and dryhump women
Kek, now I'm imagining that Davos shows up to Skagos, and finds Rickon dryhumping Osha's leg, who has a frustrated and tried expression on her face.

>>23369097
>Hope Rickon doesn't go out like he did in the show
I think Rickon could go out with Stannis.
>stannis takes winterfell
>dany declares herself azor ahai because messiah complex
>stannis' men stuck in winterfell and getting antsy
>turn on stannis when mainline red priests declare him false
>stannis murdered, godswood burned and rickon is given as sacrifice
>war of succession without stark heir

>>23368835
I think too many people are assuming that each pov character is going to get their own pov ending which isn't likely.
Most of these subplots can be grouped together and explained in a single pov or even left intentionally unresolved. We don't need to know the beat by beat precision for every pov character's journey.

>>23369167
I think a lot of the southern plots are meant to be solved by Daenerys one way or another. She'd turn them into violent tragedies. In a way she's the southern Other.

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>>23368722
I am thirding Cat to the point where I even think killing her off was a mistake. (picrel should've happened)

>>23369248
I get that "Tywin's a hypocrite" is the main point of his character but it's played off to absurdity. Particularly with Joanna dying after birthing Tyrion. The man is supposed to be autistic about advancing his family to the point that he's practically larping a CK2 campaign. Yet he never remarries? Even after Jaime is put in the Kingsguard, making Tyrion, a dwarf, his heir? What a fucking joke. "Oh but he fucks whores on the side, but in secret, hee hee~!" Someone that obsessed with establishing a dynasty is gonna hold his nose and find a noble to marry and put more kids in to avoid Tyrion inheriting Casterly Rock. Especially if he's so quick to start plotting marriages for Cersei as soon as Robert dies. It seems like a (small) plothole to me.

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>>23368245
It depends by what you suggest as "adequately". IMO the best you and i can hope for is seeing the Heart of Winter and a glimpse of Them.
>>23368768
George is adamant about the size of the book. So what can end up happening is the publisher dividing it in 2 tomes, TWOW 1 and 2. It's not too common these days tho so we'll see.
>>23368835
All this tells me is which ones you like the most heh. Alot of those plots are connected/the same and will end concomitantly plus the fat fuck always runs tons of stuff in the background, you're only going to see the conclusions. Its really not that big of a deal.

https://youtu.be/YpfQXgZA1IU?si=W24TT5orr6Aiuh-W
I have really liked her takes on ASOIAF.

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>>23368722
>>23368755
Catelyn has been blessed by doubles dubs.
>>23369248
Is it just me, or was Cat miscast in the show? Don't get me wrong, the actress was great, but she looked much older and wrinkled than I imagined Cat in the books. Furthermore, Cat is supposed to be a great beauty in the books, hence why Sansa is pretty and why Littlefinger is obsessed with them. The actress is good-looking, but not book Catelyn Stark good-looking.

>>23369124
>Melisandre's puppet
Her own visions give the lie to this.

>>23350723
>*tips fedora*
m'sir

>>23350723
No one I talk to wants to get in the weeds with me about asoiaf it sucks

>>23351618
This looks like the friend group I wish I still had...

>>23369248
Is this from a fanfiction comic? I would imagine that both Tywin's and Catelyn's children would explode if they married.

>>23350733
Not including minor POVs, I'd say Brienne is my least favorite.

>>23370654
It's only a 5 page snapshot and last I checked (years ago) the artist sadly wasn't doing asoiaf content anymore. A shame because they were one of the best, in terms of book accuracy and also without making everything over-stylised and same-facey.

Has anyone actually read Armageddon Rag?

>>23370713
That's too bad? Is Robb still alive in that comic? The seething from both sides of the family would be hilarious.

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>>23370839
no he's dead, but she gets reunited with arya at the end

>>23368835
Jamie isn't near stoneheart and isn't a about to be judged, just Brienne and podrick, Brienne had several chunks of her face bitten off.
>Jojen was about to die
Jojen is already dead and Bran ate Jojen paste (Jojens brain mushed up in a bowel, theres no such thing as weirwood seeds)
>The fat Manderly got stabbed in the neck,
Fat manderly was stabbed in one of his fat chins but is okay, will betray the Freys and pretend they wiped out stannis when actually they will let Stannis and his mostly northern army get closer to Winterfell undected, will probably open the gate from him as a Trojan horse
>Sansa stuck in the Eyrie with Littlefinger
You forgot all the politics in the Eyrie making Sansa marry Harry the heir after sweet robin dies (he'll live somehow) and also Timiett or one of the mountain clan leaders is actually the real heir to the Eyrie and not Harry so that will be a problem for sansa.
>>23369068
>The Tattered Prince's identity hasn't been revealed yet
True but he might also be dead and the Quentyn corpse is the tattered prince and the frog prince is still alive

>>23369435
He is not that autistic, he was simply keen on living to old age. And he had options in his own branch of the family with Tommen and Tyrion's son with Sansa. He loved Joanna, not remarrying makes perfect sense when its something he could do.
>>23371102
The book ends with Brienne escorting Jamie to Stoneheart, they were literally about to meet. You're correct about the rest, tho i don't see Timiett being a problem regarding the eyrie's succession line.
>True but he might also be dead and the Quentyn corpse is the tattered prince and the frog prince is still alive
...you truly believe the guy lived to sixty by being a retard? More over the prince's identity is a plot device so Dany checks in with Illyrio first before commiting to given him pentos.

>Timett, son of Timett wants every whore in King's landing which is dubbed City of Whores among the tribesmen
>Cersei is known for being a huge whore
>Tyrion is friends with Timett

Call me crazy but I think it'd be super hilarious if Tyrion just gives Cersei to Timett as some kind of offering/bargaining chip

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Is GRRM mean-spirited enough to make these two enemies?

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>>23368804
I think he's serious, the original plan applies to the first book but it derails towards the end. Martin's style is inefficient but it lets him develop characters beyond his initial vision.
>jaime was initially a villain that loves his sister and glory too much
>becomes a side character from a heroic tale getting back on the horse
The downside is that he loses interest in writing the closer he gets to the end.

>>23370287
pretty much everyone looks older and besides IS older in the show canon than they were in the books

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>>23371757
>if i know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it
its zeno's achilles and the tortoise isn't it? he can't write the ending because he has to know the ending to write it, and therefore would have no interest in doing so. therefore whatever point in writing he is at, the ending must move forward some degree into the unknown for George to continue. therefore he cannot ever reach the end point of the text.

>>23371102
>and also Timiett or one of the mountain clan leaders is actually the real heir to the Eyrie
Where is this mentioned and how legitimate is the claim?

>>23371804
Perhaps that is why most of his books/stories end on anticlimactic notes?

>>23371867
There was an Arryn baby kidnapped a few years back or something like that. Alt shift x has a video on it.

>>23371779
The only exception to this may be the Blackfish

>>23371757
I don't think that is quite the issue yet (but it will be for ADOS). It seems to me that he set up a lot of plots and its having difficulties matching everything the way he needs them to be, all as a result of a timeskip that never happened. A heap of moving pieces but no time to move them.

You now remember a couple hundred pages of what's been written of TWOW are just ADWD leftovers.

>>23372396
Yeah, and some ADWD chapters were written in the 90's.

If the publisher said "fuck it, we need TWOW NOW!", what would be the best way for them to get GRRM to finish it? Lock him in a hotel room with a writing assistant and an endless supply of adderall and cocaine?

>>23372415
>some ADWD chapters were written in the 90's
a preposterous idea for our fat gardener

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>>23372524

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>>23370287
>>23371779
Brienne should’ve been like 20 years younger too

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>>23372694
The actress was also too pretty and unwilling to take steroids.

>>23371102
>Fat manderly was stabbed in one of his fat chins but is okay
In the two read throughs I've made I never caught the specifics that he was okay. But cool
>Jojen is already dead
I also don't remember this

As you can see, I'm long overdue a reread but fattie George Martin won't finish the fucking book

>>23371730
Man, I dunno. I always thought GRRM was foreshadowing some kind of future alliance between them but with how Tyrion's arc is going now I'm not too sure

This might be a bit obscure but was anyone expecting for Edmure Tully to become a POV during their first read through? I felt like GRRM was building up to that and seemed like a logical conclusion considering we didn't have any POVs within that area at the time and he was held captive. Plus, I thought his character was dynamic enough to be able to hold up his own POV. Just a thought I had when I first read through Storm of Swords back in 2015

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>>23373698
During my first read-through, I felt like Catelyn was kinda being a bitch of an older sister, still thinking of him as her idiot baby brother. My dude, he's a 30+ year old man. Edmure really was done dirty by coincidences and people around him.

>>23373726
I agree. He had his flaws but I had sympathy for him.

>>23373726
>30+
he's probably like 25

>>23373733
His decisions at the Battle of Stone Mill were all right. In the absence of contrary orders from Robb, any commander would try to hold all of the river crossings and prevent any enemy forces from crossing and potentially flanking the Northern army. Robb getting mad at Edmure makes sense, but I feel like no one ever acknowledges that Robb screwed up by not telling Edmure.

Coldhands is _________?
Quaithe is __________?
Septa Lemore is _______?

>>23374325
They are all Euron who is also a secret Targ

>>23373726
>>23373738
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest/Calculations_Ages_(Continued)#Edmure_Tully
so he'd be between 25 and 32 at the start of the war of the 5 kings

>>23374325
Coldhands is the Night's King from way back when, the one who married an Other woman. He is probably either a Stark or a Bolton. Alternatively it may be his son from the Other woman.
Quaithe is a sorcerer from the East
Septa Lemore is a disgraced Septa who broke her vow of celibacy and so was exiled

>>23374325
>Septa Lemore is _______?
A real sexy bitch if Tyrion's POV is anywhere close to accurate.

>>23374325
A ancient nightswatchmen,

a random sorceress from Asshai

Some despoiled septa

>>23374325
I like the idea that Coldhands is zombieDunk

I think identity of Coldhans is someone boring/unknown. He is one of the Raven's Teeth who went to wall and later ranging with Bloodraven. Would explain why he is so loyal to Bloodraven.

>>23375416
>an Other woman
Why haven't the Others tried this ploy again on another LC? Seemed to work the first time.

>>23376077
I don't think we should take the Night's King story at face value. It's basically a myth so some details may be skewed.

I hate how most people and artists interpret the Others to look like undead or just skin-over-bones. Reading the books, I always read the descriptions and thought they were like pale elves.

>>23374325
>Septa Lemore is
for me
>>23375416
It would be pretty cool if Coldhands is a half other, of course he wouldn't be the Night King's son but still very cool. He would work perfectly as a bridge between Bran and the Others.

Jon Snow will give the Others guest right at Winterfell to save the world. Check em

>>23374672
I assume he's at the youngest end of the possible range because a) catelyn mentions being "raised as the heir" for a time which wouldn't make sense if her brother was only a couple of years younger and b) being 30+ and unmarried is very weird

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anyone ever tried a POV Read Through? I'm trying to create an order as I go along. Basically, you pick a POV and read all their chapters, then when you're done you go back and read another POV through, going on until you read through the books. This method gives a unique feel for the story and presents a completely new experience in the narrative.

I'm starting with Tyrion, and just finished his AGOT chapters. So far, the narrative from only Tyrion's POV is him going to visit the Starks along with the King's retinue, then he goes up to the Wall with the Stark bastard, who sees being a bit of an angsty teenager. Then he leaves the Wall, with grave warning about some ominous danger threatening the world. Tyrion returns to the world after he's been away for awhile, as the next POV is him in Lady Stark's captivity. You learn there was an attempt on the life of the Stark boy at Winterfell, and she thinks he's responsible. The journey to the Eyrie is fun, and Tyrion escaping is fun also. Finally, Tyrion gets a Third Act by joining his families' armies (along with his Mountain men) and we see him fight in a battle then leave for the Capital.

Reading through the book this way, Tyrion-only POV teaches the reader about Winterfell/the North, the Wall, the Vale, and some of the Riverlands. For characters, Tyrion offers insight and interacts with Jon Snow, Joer Mormont and Ser Alliser and Yoren, Catelyn, Lysa and Sweet Robin, Ser Rodrick, Bron, The Mountain Clans, Kevan and Tywin Lannister, the Mountain, Shae, and Pod Payne. Also the Innkeeper lady at the Inn at the Crossroads, but she's dead in the chapter we actually see her.
This all gives the narrative a nice vibe to it. It's fun jumping through the story and having to piece together what happened.

My POV Order isn't final, but Tyrion has to be first and Dany has to be last. Throughout the entire story, characters in various POVs hear rumors about this Dragon Queen far across the sea. Dany has to be last so that the reader can experience learning about Dany only through rumors and the like. Then, finally, the reader goes back and sees first hand what Dany has really been up to this whole time.

Thoughts? Anyone ever done something similar? Advice for POV order? Here's what I'm kinda thinking currently. I try to have the next POV at least tangently related to the previous one, like the characters intersect at some point or something:

>Tyrion
>Catelyn
>Ned
>Jamie
>Brienne
>Sansa
>Jon Snow
>Arya
>Melisandre
>Davos
>Sam
>Aeron
>Victarion
>Asha
>Theon
>Bran
>Cersei
>Areo
>Arys
>Arianne
>Jon Connington
>Quenten
>Barristan
>Dany

>>23376460
I've never thought about doing a full read-through like this, but all of my rereads of the series have been restricted to one character. I do it mostly because I don't want to slog through the books again (even if I do love them). Reading just one POV can really help you get a sense of the character and pick up some hints, themes, or recurring lines that you may have missed. I did a Jaime read-through, and I decided to read Brienne up until she leaves Jaime and Cersei up until Jaime leaves her. Doing a read of Jaime like this made his arc and eventual transformation much more obvious and enjoyable.

>>23376460
(moved to a second post)
here's the explanation for the POV Order:

>Tyrion
travels the farthest, most amount of chapters, most crossover
>Catelyn
Tyrion captured by her, then get to see the War of Five Kings from her POV
>Ned
going back to clarify just how Ned died and the War started in the first place
>Jamie
Catelyn spin-off, juxtapose Jaime and Ned
>Brienne
Jaime spin-off who reunites with Jaime eventually
>Sansa
the knight from a Brienne POV ends up in her chapter, slight spin-off from Ned/get to see the King's Landing fallout after Ned dies
>Jon Snow
Sansa replies "Jon Snow?!" to Mya Stone (?), giving away her secret identity, so winding the narrative back to find out how Ned Stark's bastard became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch
>Arya
Jon Snow has two seperate plots relating to Arya, and thinks about her a lot, so the narrative moves to follow her adventures
>Melisandre
no real good spot, so kind of a way to go from weird magic of Arya chapters back to the Wall, but still weird magic stuff
>Davos
the hardest character to place, I finally decided he makes the most sense going after the Red Woman, so since she went before he is here now, his plot crosses over the Wo5K and the North Remembers
>Sam
the POV I really wanted to follow Arya since there is Braavos crossover
>Aeron
Sam gets to the point where Euron is heading, so wind the narrative back to focus on the Ironborn
>Victarion
post-Kingsmoot, heading East POV as certain POVs and narratives start to focus more and more on Dany-related stuff
>Asha
post kingsmoot, sets up Theon and Stannis in the North
>Theon
a hard one to place, but wraps up the focus on the Ironborn, expands the Northern plotline, and has a vision of Bran
>Bran
really only makes sense to follow Jon Snow or Theon due to visions, and Jon Snow was full
>Cersei
ties things back to King's Landing, the hardest jump from bran to her but Bran does get pushed out of a window for seeing her, hears about Myrcella and Dorne stuff
>Areo
setting up Dorne stuff
>Arys
more Dorne set up
>Arianne
the actual Dorne POV, sets up Quentyn and Jon Con
>Jon Connington
Arianne going to Aegon so going back in the narrative to show how the Golden Company went after Tyrion left them
>Quentyn
Arianne thinks about him and his mission, this is what his mission is
>Barristan
he sees the fallout of Quentyn's mission, the final set up to Mereen without Dany, necessitating Dany chapters if only to explain how things got so bad
>Daenerys
finally, the Dragon Queen gets her time to shine, showing the entire story from her POV

I think this is gonna be fun; it'll be cool to see the ways the story plays out from only certain people's POVs. It's also a fun literary exercise to see how much info and lore get dumped in someone's POV; you have to imagine the story in between the parts you don't lear about.
>I will be including WoW sample chapters
>the prologues can be read whenever I don't know when and where to place them

>>23376482
yeah, im looking forward to the Ned > Jaime > Brienne section; I think the narrative will largely have nice vibes and themes of honor and justice and will largely follow three radically different characters who all try to answer "how do I do the right thing?"

>>23376498
prologues you should put Will before Tyrion, Cressen before Mel, Chett before Jon, Pate before Sam and Varamyr before Bran

>>23376524
this is really good, but I think it could be better ;) let's work on the epilogues as well!

>Will
admittedly, I read this one first anyways, just because I opened the book and it immediately sucks you in, so I did this already, however yeah, AGoT prologue should probably always be the first read chapter just to set the tone for the entire series, and give the reader that ever-present thought in the back of their head, "the Others are out there..."
>Cressen
I feel Arya > Mel is a better transition, so maybe Mel > Cressen > Davos, since Davos is also involved
>Chett
probably before Sam. Davos > Sam is a hard transition, so Davos > Chett doesn't seem much worse
>Pate
maybe after Sam, so it goes Chett > Sam > Pate. This would bookend Sam with chapters involving magic related stuff, and saves the Alleras reveal for Arianne later
>Varamyr
before Bran is probably for the best. After Bran could kinda work, and Jon is full, so it probably has to be before Bran if it fits anywhere. this is the hardest prologue to place imo

Epilogues:
>Merret Frey
after Brienne I guess?
>Kevan
after Jon Con is probably best, though after Dany works on a meta level because that's also where the reader and the series has officially ended

Why has GRRM never been metoo'd? It's obvious from his physiognomy and writing that he's a pervert with an incel streak. I'm sure he's done creepy shit with women especially back in the 70s.

>>23361335
I just want a good and therefore it would have to be a mod Total War adaption

>>23372524
Something like that. The issue is that George does SO much other shit than writing. He toned it down a bit after Game of Thrones went off air, but he still does TV shit, interviews, runs a book shop, has his weird train hobby, award shows, watches football, participated in the writers strike, etc.

>>23373748
They regularly do. Robb's whole issue is that he's a good tactician but a shit King. He only knows how to fight, not how to be a diplomat.

>>23374325
Coldhands is the Night's King
Quaithe is Shiera Seastar
Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne

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>>23350723
Read Bakker.

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>>23376718
>He only knows how to fight, not how to be a diplomat
Based Bobby B

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Wassup can a loc come up in your crypt?

>>23373726
The Tully family drama is so underrated. There's so much going on there from just the tiny glimpse we get into it.

>>23376554
maybe i'm biased because i'm a sucker for old sad characters putting on a brave face but dying inside, but cressen is the best prologue chapter. i can't see Arya flowing into Mel, since mel's POV starts so late in the game.

Maybe merrett could go before Cat even, pretty brutal cold open for her.

Speaking of Tully family drama, is Blackfish gay?

>>23377713
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1204

>march 19, 2002

>The question is: why did Brynden Tully not marry at Hoster's request? A lot of folks suspect that he is gay. Others suggest that it is brotherly rivalry. Or lost love. Or impotence. Any light you could shed on this?

>Nope.

Jon Connington is a massive bender tho

>>23377745
>Any light you could shed on this?
>Nope.
Based George. Fucking shitheel

>>23377713
Only Loras and Laenor are fags

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>>23377898
Jon Connington says hi

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>>23377795
They should have copied the entire painting and make Robert the guy who strokes who walks up the stairs behind him.

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>>23377687
In terms of Tully family drama, we have
>Lysa has been batshit crazy since childhood
>Lysa was deflowered before marriage, and nearly died during a forced abortion
>Blackfish is unmarried
>Blackfish was disowned by Hoster
>Cat seems to intensely dislike Edmure
>Hoster may have had bastards
>Hoster showed clear favoritism to Cat over Lysa and Edmure
>Hoster married Lysa to a much older man.

>>23378114
I don't think Lysa was nuts since childhood, she was just head over heels for Petyr and running on child logic.

>>23376460
I've done this for Tyrion and Jaime but not a full read through. I agree that it's super interesting to get bits and pieces of the story that you slowly have to tie together. Obviously the closest we've gotten to this is the AFFC/ADWD split and even though they're not my favorite and I really enjoyed that aspect of it. Specifically the Davos cliffhanger we get in ASOS and AFFC where you didn't know whether the rumors about him were true or not

I'm in a middle of a reread here (halfway through storm) and I'm planning to read Feast and Dance as one book combined this time. Is this a good chapter order or would you recommend something else?

https://afeastwithdragons.com/

>>23378309
yeah i thought the implication was she snapped after having too many miscarriages and stillborns

>>23378437
I used that reading order and yes, it's pretty good

>>23373598
God I wish I was Jaime and Brienne would marry me

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>Hmm... I need a name for a main character in my series
>Well, he's a subversion of the knight-in-shining-armor trope
>What's a stereotypical name for an English knight?
>Aha! James.
>Hmm, a little too generic. What's an alternative form of James?
>Jamie could work, but I need to make it unique.
>Ah fuck it, I'll just switch around the 'I' and the 'M'

>>23378114
Why was Hoster such a cunt?

>>23377697
Arya into Mel only because her last WoW sample chapter involves Faceless Men magic stuff, has a dark kinda spooky tone (also kind of a fucked up tone) and most of all, there is the Brother of the Night's Watch character who shows up, and it's been a minute but doesn't Stannis' loyal knight (but he isn't a knight?) guy shows up in Braavos as well, to start the process of hiring more mercenaries? So basically, you follow all of Jon Snow, which is one of the longest characters to read, then all of Arya, which is maybe even longer, and between them you go heavily into the Night's Watch and Beyond the Wall and a little bit Northern politics, to completely removed from the Wall but Arya sometimes thknks of Jon, to finally ending with a Night's Watch member showing up, tying it all back to the Wall, which is where Melisandre shows up, and then since she is so heavily tied to Davos, it's then Davos chapters.
I admit, it isn't idela, but there just isn't anywhere better to put Mel, in my opinion. At least not without putting her between Jon chapters or something, but the entire point of this is only one character POV at a time, so that defeats the purpose.

Merret before Cat would be a cool cold open, but that's more of a "Subjective, Wow Factor POV Order" type of list. I chose Tyrion > Cat because Tyrion's plot personally interacts with Jon Snow first to bias the reader towards Jon, then he interacts with Cat obviously, and then he spends the rest of the story with the Lannisters or in Essos, with a little bit of Sansa. So, by going to Cat next, the reader gets the other side of the Tyrion coin and her thoughts towards Jon, which sets the stage for Ned chapters regarding Jon as well. Plus, Cat will then see the Stark side of the civil war
basically, yeah it'd be cool kinda, but it doesnt make as much sense imo

>>23379439
based

>>23351618
young grrm seems impossilble

GRRM has already finished the entire series, did so a few years ago. He will be releasing it posthumously to avoid fan backlash to the ending.

I was never here.

>>23379936
My favorite cope.

>>23379936
I want to live in a posthumous world.

>>23350723
He actually looked worse and unhealthier than today. He at least looks more palpable now.

>>23379936
>GRRM is actually just busy writing all the other Dunk and eggs books and other ASOIAD stuff, maybe a little sci-fi to
>Ah yeah im still very busy writing Winds
if hes has a massive catalog waiting to be dropped posthumously they should build a massive statue of him and maybe a public holiday to.

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>>23379936

>>23379439
>Now what to name this character in the history?
>He's not a villain, but almost a demon
>Demon? Oh, George you've done it again
>Now to just add an 'a'...

>>23377713
While it's tempting to point that way, since the typical alternative, that Blackfish refused to marry Bethany Redwyne because he wanted to marry for love is ruled out by the fact that he didn't marry for love, the more thematically satisfying idea is that Brynden is militantly asexual.
Blackfish is cast as a mirror of other characters. Eddard, Hoster, but most notably Jaime
In AFFC recalls his visit to Riverrun and his near-worship of the legendary Ser Tully. Brynden is the one who meets Jaime, taunts him, throws the Kingslayer back into his teeth, even escapes Riverrun, aided by Edmure instead of Catelyn.
What is Jaime's sin? A lust so overpowering he feels utterly helpless before it. Pure pleasure of the flesh. What better mirror for that than a man so opposed to sex that he left his home rather than consummate a marriage?

No name is more dogshit and lazier than Drogon. In fact all of Dany's dragons SUCK in terms of names. And we know old Georgie can come up with some cool shit if he tries (Morghul, Vermithor, Caraxes etc)

>>23380503
I like it. Tells us very concisely that even though Dany is Mother of Dragons she's both utterly lacking in imagination and totally disconnected from a line tracing back to Old Valyria

>>23377795
>Dayum gurl, I know you're 14, but you tryna fulfill some prophecy with me?
>Wanna make an Azor Ahai baby with your Stark warg blood and my Valyrian dragon blood?
>I know I'm married to that Dornish feeble bitch and have 2 kids with her, but who cares? lol
>Just come with me on that horse
>Nah your father and brothers certainly won't mind

>>23379936
I've never understood this theory. He already went through this with the show, it literally cannot be worse than that. He had to watch two complete dipshits torch his entire life's work before his eyes and there was nothing he could do about it. He's been shit on relentlessly since 2019 by everyone lmao. He's not going to hold back two books because he's scared of being shit on

>>23379439
>his greatest flaw is his love
>what if I called him J'aime?
>brilliant
was george even trying on this one

>>23379439
Jaime is just the Spanish form of Jamie.

>>23380609
>Wanna make an Azor Ahai baby
Wasn't he convinced Aegon was the one?

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>>23379614
Dead wife

>>23381613
Something something he was the promised princed something dragon three heads = three children

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This has most likely been noticed 3298573495 years ago, but I just realised GRRM most definitely named Alayne after Elaine of Astolat. He even copied the tournament part.

>>23380503
>>23380509
Dany is a barbarian. Old Valyria, Targeryen history, Westeros history, common law or something as simple as a bedtime story are foreigner to her.

I am sick of people saying that Ramsay wrote the pink letter. It is so obviously Mance, I cannot believe that it is not already the commonly accepted theory.

>>23382198
Why and how would Mance do that?

>>23371757
>As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it.
uuh, is this the reason why he can't finish asoiaf? he literally outlined the rest of the story by way of a tv show

>>23382232
using maester Luwin's stationary set george masterfully set up in book 1

>>23378114
>Blackfish is unmarried
Is the Blackfish supposed to be gay or an incel or what

>>23382874
doesn't seem that gay desu, if he was i imagine he'd have married a woman for political gain/beard and then just not fucked her.
i think it's purely that he hates his brother, dgaf about having a wife, decides to enjoy trolling him by never getting married.

either that or he has a sad story about a girl who died,

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>>23382874
I think he's so autistically devoted to war and militancy that he's transcended sexual desire.
Or maybe he's just low libido or asexual.

>>23380503
>no dragons named skyler
Is she even white?

>>23380023
That's the shitty lighting and camera quality anon

>>23381621
just like tywin

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You have a dragon, he stands before yo-ACCCCCCCCCCCCCK

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>>23383379
>UNBOWED
>UNBENT
>UNBROKEN

>>23380478
>Hmm what do I name his main rival
>The character is like a reflection of Daemon
>Reflection of Daemon? Oh, George you've earned your greasy chin tonight
>Now just move the 'D' to the end of the name...

>>23383557
>how would I name this generation of this ancient house
>think george, think
>oh sweet, sesame street is on
>...brilliant idea, george, you have done it again

>this one character is like combination of varys & littlefinger
>hmmm, vittlefinger doesn't sound good, i need to fix that
>wait a second

>this character comes from a city that worships a goat
>hmmmm
>oat, moat, stoat, poat, boat, coat, ...

>>23383722
GRRM will forever be a legend for naming a character 'Vargo Hoat' with an epithet as 'the Goat' decades before the GOAT becomes common slang. Unintentionally making his strange name oddly modern and still make sense. Worshiping the Black Goat whcih is a lovecraft reference name while its religion of blood and human sacrifice is just Carthage/ Phoenician dailed to 11 and made fantasy is just super cool.

>>23364781
>jonsa
Someone please tell me why this seems to be such a big thing. I think it started with the show, but I haven't watched it and all I know is that Jon gets on with Dany anyway.

>>23382198
I think the letter was by someone inside Winterfell. It's probably not Ramsay unless he's lying about beating Stannis (it'd be lame to spoil the battle's outcome too). I'd bet on it being one of the Stark loyalists trying to turn the battle further in Stannis' favour. Mance was discovered and it's possible that they captured him or learned of his survival by torturing a spearwife, so his state is in the air.
>>23384392
>girls self insert as sansa
>jon is the "main character" so those girls automatically like him
>incest is on the table so nothing to hold them back
Also I don't see JonxDany. There's too much ground to cover and not enough time.

>>23383379
Was he gay? Asexual? Retarded? Why didn’t he reproduce?

I sometimes wonder if the other 39 dragonlord families also had mental illness.

>>23384503
I find it stupid not any other dragonlord family survived the doom, not even a single person from them. Surely from 39 families at least one person was not in Valyria when the doom happened.

>>23384477
>jon is the "main character"
Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't like Jon chapters.

>>23384521
I have always found him incredibly boring and uninteresting and his chapters are no exception.

>>23384392
Before Robb died he sent a letter north detailing that Jon was to be his heir. Knowledge of that letter still exists (Jason Mallister and Edmure are still alive, and Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover probably are). Whether Jon accepts it is another matter.
Without that letter the inheritor of Winterfell is Bran, widely believed to be dead, and unlikely to be able to accept it after whatever weirwood fuckery happens.
Then Rickon, who we know so little about that speculation is impossible.
Then Sansa. Though currently Roose Bolton is Warden of the North and Ramsay Lord of Winterfell, it's transparently obvious that, like Littlefinger says, if Sansa reappears she could sweep the Northmen back to supporting her, and it's unlikely that anyone from the South will lift a finger to protect the Boltons.
So when the Starks take back Winterfell we're left with a conflict, whether to go with Robb's legally validated choice of heir, Jon, or with the more willing and birth-legitimated choice, Sansa.
Given that most readers like Jon and are at least sympathetic to Sansa they don't want a fight between the two of them. So they wishcast a romance between them instead, even though if Jon was to marry any of his cousins it would be Arya, as they've both actually thought of each other fondly in their absence.

>>23384519
There was one guy, he named himself emperor and flew into the Valyrian ruins; he was never seen again.

>>23384519
"It is said that some Valyrian dragonlords in Tyrosh and Lys were spared, but that in the immediate political upheaval following the Doom, they and their dragons were killed by the citizens of those Free Cities. The histories of Qohor likewise claim that a visiting dragonlord, Aurion, raised forces from the Qohorik colonists and proclaimed himself the first Emperor of Valyria. He flow away on the back of his great dragon, with thirty thousand men following behind afoot, to lay claim to what remained of Valyria and reestablish the Freehold. But neither Emperor Aurion nor his host were ever seen again."

>>23384617
>their dragons were killed by the citizens
It looks like literally any dragonless person but the armies of Westeros (minus Dorne) can kill dragons and this is really funny to me for some reason.

>>23384627
Tyrion goes into this. Basically dragonslaying myths in Westeros are horseshit, telling you that a dragon's belly is soft or you can stab a spear down its throat. The people with real experience (which no doubt includes the Rhoynar descended Dornish) knew that you had to shoot them in the eyes.
The Siege of the Dragonpit doesn't count, they were already chained up and (implied) weakened by a lack of room to grow.

>>23384627
There are a few instances of this in Fire and Blood:
>Meraxes, killed in 10AC during the First Dornish War by a scorpion bolt in the eye
>Stormcloud, killed in 129AC by arrows to the chest and a scorpion bolt in the neck
>Vermax, killed by crossbows while attacking a fleet of ships
>Dreamfyre, Morghul, Shrykos, Syrax, Tyraxes, killed in 130AC in the storming of the dragonpit
>Tessarion, killed in 130AD by an archer who shot three arrows into its eye after being seriously wounded by another dragon
But most of these are in some way incapacitated (Storming of the Dragonpit, Tessarion) or very young (Tessarion, many of the dragons in the Dragonpit, Vermax, Stormcloud). The only instance where a full-grown dragon was killed in a fight by humans without being in some way seriously inconvenienced is Meraxes.

>>23384627
Killing a dragonlord was a tall order, killing the lord AND their dragon is a huge cap. And this coming from some slave mutt.

>>23384659
>>23384701
I wonder how Hot D is going to do the storming of dragonpit. They will most likely fuck it up,.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN2H_sKcmGw

it's up

>>23384701
And Meraxes was a fluke. The only actual instance of a fully grown dragon being killed with intent while not restrained, is the one dragon the Rhoynar managed to kill back in essos. Before Valyria decimated them.

>>23384825
if they change it so Rhaenys dies in the storming I'd appreciate it, goes well with her fucking up all the peasants in her "girlboss moment"

>>23384839
Not happening. We already know from leaks they will do battle of Rook's Rest this season and parade Meleys' dead body through King's Landing afterwards. So I guess it's safe to assume Rhaenys will die there.

>>23384839
That would imply the writers actually realised that that scene was bad.

>>23384831
>no Roddy the Ruin
yawn, call me when he comes in

Just finished my first ever reading of ASOIAF. Read the last pages of ADWD just a few minutes ago. Didn't expect to feel so bad for Kevan.
Now I kinda hate GRRM for having not finished the series and myself for having started it. It's too good to be left unfinished.

>>23384617
>>23384579
>>23383445
something very strange i find is just how little we know about the history of valyria. like yeah we get stuff about the ghiscari/rhoynish wars but theres no mention of any specific lords freeholders, any possible political complications, instability, culture in what was the most influential and powerful society to ever exist

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>>23386580
Like the Gods Eye im sure has a book on all that but has kept it underwraps for plot reveal reasons.
HotD revealed that there was a central building in Valyria the blood mages did their blood magic in and it seemed to be based on the aztec human sacrifice temples design wise. They had cannals of lava like Venice has water, glass buildings as pic related shows. theres a lot of info made for it all but its all just not revealed to us yet

>>23386580
And how is that strange? Because you should know by now GRRM is never gonna go there, Valyria has a mystique to it... Its Rome but on steroids. I'd be very surprised if we got anything more than breadcrumbs and curiosities. Yes, even F&B2 will not likely touch the freehold in any significant way. And likewise nor will we ever see Yi Ti or Asshai-by-the-shadow.

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Unpopular opinion: ASOIAF would be much better without Jon and Daenerys.

>greater focus on Westeros politics
>not wasting time on a bunch of things happening on a continent nobody cares about
>still have the Others, mainly through Bran POV
>would still plenty of magic involving Euron, Bran, and Arya POVs
>their characters are pretty boring anyways

>>23386903
Eh the wall is kino but I wish Daenerys died and Viserys was the POV

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>>23386903
Jon is boring but hes the moody teenager viewpoint to see all the cool shit and interesting characters at the Wall and the true north.
>>23387048
Dany is more interesting than Viserys and her role as sex slave, turned empowered via choosing how and who she has sex with, anti slaver and then city conqueror in the name of freeing slaves who she herself was is fascinating. Thats before even touching her dragons and how her aqnd Jon are destined for greatness and scary magic coming back into the world.
Wait for them to meet each other and their third head of the dragon, Euron, to really so their characters come to life as the most interesting people in the story. fAegon isn't getting a dragon and will die somehow, Euron will bind on of Danys dragons, most likely Viserion since thats the one the Night King kills in the show, Drogon is Danys and Rhaegal will be jons

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>>23384521
>>23384549
>>23386903
>>23387179

>>23386903
Really don't get the distaste for Jon or Dany, even if in her case i get the whole disconnected plot argument, which is a fair enough point. Dany (and by extent everyone in or going to essos) adds so much to the series in terms of world building her value as a POV should be self explanatory. I just know that if she didn't exist people would be complaning that we hear about all these places but GRRM never shows anything outside of westeros or that he is a hack and basically everything aside from westeros is an afterthought...
>>23387179
cringe indeed