>>23357013
magic systems aren't as important as telling a good story

The magic in LOTR is very unrealistic and I do agree it hampers the suspension of disbelief

>>23357013
>real magic systems
wat

>Magic systems/power levels
Anime is a blight upon the fantasy genre.

Yeah, most magic systems are pretty lazy. Whatever the writer needs to move the story or save the day. Sanderson's magic systems have a lot more thought put into them and he explains the mechanics, but at the end of the day he can still do whatever he wants, just with a couple extra steps and restrictions. His characters still suck ass though.

>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles? The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.

>>23357013
>magic
>rules
I'm sorry, but what le fuck? Magic is supposed to be extramundane.

>>23357013
Magic was a part of nature in Tolkien

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Real magic operates more like in Tolkien than Sanderson. Though I do admit that narratively that can be annoying sometimes.

>>23357081
Fpbp

>>23357013
>>23357114
>>23357120
>>23357121
>>23357166
>>23357207
>>23357224
>>23357240
I think that magic limits can be expressed in a novel through implication and GOOD STORYTELLING rather than the autistic over-exposition that Sandersonians, gaymers, and anime fags love so much. Spending several pages explaining the pseudoscience behind power levels and magic reserves gets extremely redundant for most readers, and as a moderately successful fantasy author, I always hated that sort of writing whenever I attempted it in my early career. When I make a new world, I create the systems based on a few key principles and always keep it in the back of my mind, but I don’t spend half the book (or several months of real time) dwelling on the finer details, and I certainly never reveal the specifics to the reader. That is the primary difference between showing vs telling.

>>23357013
This is such a bad quote. Sanderson is right in that magic in which a price must be paid for bending reality makes it more interesting. It opens up dilemma and profluence through magic, rather than a character doubling as a force of nature.

>>23357114
It's not unrealistic if it's metaphysical and consistent within its universe.

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>>23357013
>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval sense of magic systems: wizard was magical, the magic would happen.
>Tolkien doesn't ask the question: Where was Gandalf's magic system? Did he have rules and metrics?
He gives me the impression that he has a very superficial understanding of Magic in Tolkien's work; Gandalf's magic is very coherent with himself; he mainly displays powers of telekinesis/telepathy, fire manipulation, or light and temperature more broadly speaking. Gandalf, and the other Wizards in the Middle-Earth don't just "do whatever" and is justified because "it's magic" Tolkien didn't write like that, there's a reason why people are sometimes left with the impression that Gandalf doesn't really do much magic stuff for a Wizard and it's because his powers are rather minimal. There's also the use of the words of command, the world sort of wraps around what the wizards say because they have some authority over it but I think they can't overrid the words of command of being higher on their chain, Tolkien's magic isn't random at all and has particular strict rules, what this guy calls a "hard magic system."

>>23357582
Any coherent universe has laws it operates by. Magic without any laws is nonsensical

Technology is order and magic is chaos. Technology works within the limitations of reality while magic operates outside of it, breaking all the rules.

>>23357081
Yeah, but if it's poorly thought out, it acts like a deus ex machina, which is bad story telling.

>>23357240
>Real magic

>>23357725
>He gives me the impression that he has a very superficial understanding of Magic in Tolkien's work;
>>23357577
>This is such a bad quote.
It's not real quote. Sanderson is dumb, but not that dumb.

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>>23357841
>It's not real quote. Sanderson is dumb, but not that dumb.
That's sort of a relief but I've seen some of his videos, and sometimes he does use Tolkien as an example of "soft magic" and said things like "Y'know, like how Gandalf just does whatever and it's magic and that's it" I get that he's over-simplifying for lectures for college students that may only be aquintance with the movie adaptions but I still think it's a bad understanding of Tolkien's "magic system." Maybe he just comes across like that to me and if actually engaged in conversation he does have more insight into the fantasy genre, maybe he does have a very shallow approach to things, who knows.

>>23357556
I've only read Mistborn and recently started reading Elantris. He doesn't spend that long explaining the magic, he feeds you bits and pieces and keeps you interested. In the prologue of Mistborn 1, he simply writes the characters starts "burning" the metal in his stomach and he gets some kind of powers. The next day we see he destroy the whole mansion with all the guards and nobles inside it, so it leaves you quite curious about what it is. Later he uses Vin's apprenticeship as a way to expand on the rules, when Kelsier is teaching her, he's also teaching the reader. The part that does get very tedious is the fight scenes, since it's just push-pull-push-pull, probably more interesting if it was animated. In Elantris, I'm 11 chapters in the book and still no explanation of the magic, we just know that suddenly all the people got sick and lost their powers. At one point they revealed you can draw symbols in the air but they fizzle out. That mystery aspect keeps me reading, so he definitely knows what he's doing, I just wish his characters were more interesting but it's genre shit so the bar is lower.

I have no idea why modern fantasy writers have this obsession with magic "systems" as if they were trying to build up a new field of hard science or something. For one, isn't the entire point of magic that it is mystical, and thus not really a force one can rationalize (that is, systematize) and command? Even Harry Potter, where the characters supposedly go to a school to be lectured in magic, is actually pretty vague about how magic works beyond waving a wand and saying some latin words.

Just focus on the drama.

>>23358601
great reddit take. stated like this is something anyone over 14 hasn't already considered.

>>23358614
And considered wrongly, from the looks of it. "Magic systems" are the most Reddit thing possible in writing in a genre that is all too Redditified already.

>>23358620
>considered wrongly
i agree and i'm not talking about his opinion, just TIRED the comparison.

>>23357737
The Arthurian tradition, Eddas, Greek, Vedic, and Chinese epics all make zero effort in defining magic.

If you need to completely autistically audit a conceit in order to entertain the narrative it supports, just investigating plain causality to its roots will keep you occupied for decades per novel.

You won't be able to read anything, in keeping with /lit/ tradition. Unless that is what you secretly want?

>>23358634
none of their use of magic made for better storytelling. it was taken for granted in their own way. usually in regards to morals or making a point. it's just now our use of magic is post D&D/videogames, etc.
magic in fantasy now is a trope, or an advertisement of escapism. so it serves a very different purpose. a system in a novel where people are reading about someone getting stronger and overcoming specific problems with specific tools benefits, is a benefit. you can dismiss it as gay, but it doesn't change the reality.
speaking of reality, most of any of these authors are smarter than (you) and you've never shit out a thought they hadn't already themselves considered. fucking pseuds

>>23358645
benefits a system*

to reiterate, i can't get over the audacity of some underage faggot on /lit/ parroting such a tired take in such an lazy way. not out here to stifle conversation, but it's the most reddit shit ever. no updoots for you faggots here
you're too cool for magic systems. noted. read the greeks etc.
let me know when you come full circle or make it over the tip of that bell curve faggot. come join me in magic system town

>>23357013
Homeboy writes YA for girls. He should shut the fuck up, lmao.

>>23358601
In these sorts of discussions (cringe), Harry Potter is the locus classicus of a too-soft magic system. Anyone who considers how little thought went into its "magic-system" will reach one of two conclusions:
>It doesn't matter at all, and anyone who cares is an autistic nerd. The story, characters, and vibes are what make HP memorable.
>It's a series-breaking problem that results in plotholes and head-scratching.
It's up to you which side is right, but if you're really interested in why people care about hard/soft magic systems, go look up "Harry Potter soft magic" or something, and you'll see a ton of neck beards and tumblerinas over-analyzing HP to demonstrate how magical inconsistency ruins everyone's favorite children's book

>>23357114
In the Hobbit it's very carefully set up. Gandalf is introduced as the "fireworks guy" and implied to be a wizard that works with fire and light. Then, every time he uses magic later on, it's some manipulation of fire and light. What's even better is how it thematically contrasts with the fire and light of the dragon. One for protection, amusement, and safety. The other for destruction and greed.

>>23357013
Why didn't Gandalf just teleport the ring into Mt Doom?

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>>23358645
>none of their use of magic made for better storytelling
You either didn't read LOTR or these other civilizational canonical epics, likely both.

Just take Sauron's ring for example. Magic artifact, made of part of his soul, made to dominate all servant rings that Sauron made. This is all we are told; nothing about how soul splicing or imbueing works.

Now take the arrows used by Ravana and Indrajit in Ramayana: Shiva's arrows, super destructive, that RavanaCo has because of Ravana's ascetic and yogic practice. One arrow destroys worlds, one destroys kings, one destroys armies. Nothing is explaining about how they work, just how ThisGuy got them and has them for.

Now take again Wukong's Gold-Clasped At-Will Cudgel. Found in the dragon king's palace, weighs a billion jin, can shrink to the size of a heavenly pillar or a needle. How the GCAWC is made is never explained, only how Monkey got it and how he uses it.

Same thing everywhere: the Grail, the herbs ("pharma," synonymous with magic) of Hermes against Circe, and the ritual of Odysseus in Hades, Monkey's 72 Taoist Form-Changes. Nothing explained, it all just works, carrying the plot forward. Same thing with the One Ring, same thing with "the elves used their magic".

Even in works where a form of "magic" has mechanics, like Louis Cha's wuxia novels, they take on a literary/philosophic bent. It's closer to poetry, with nothing meaningfully qualified or quantified. Would you prefer this? It's higher effort than "Illuvatar Sang and It Was So", but it is still the same bs.

Even if everything is q&q'd like an AI generated Clancy novel, all of it is still just props carrying the plot. All that is required of a conceit is that it does not self-contradictory; not explaining magic as a DnD ruleset circumvents the possibility of self-contradiction 100%>

>...I just want a coherent system to larp with
Perhaps a picrel battlefeed is more your speed.

>>23358704
none of these examples contradict my opinion in any way. in fact even comparing magic systems vs. mystical feats is taking magic for granted. like it's concept first, story second-- although that is often partially true.
>...I just want a coherent system to larp with
and why would this be a problem? everyone is larp'ing in all things. even when listening music.
and that is besides the fact that a system serve more than some sort of autistic superimposition. think of a murder in a murder-mystery, and the various rules that pertain to that.

should clarify; i'm not debating magic systems vs. lack of. just defending systems.
fuck, it's like the only time i'm debating anything on 4chan is when defending something from some lazy dismissal.
>>23358741

>>23357114
>The magic [...] is very unrealistic
no fucking way

>>23357773
Wrong. Magic for characters like Gandolf and Sauron work fine because of the otherworldly nature of these characters. Trying to explain how or why Gandalf can do what he does takes away from his mystique and power.

>>23358741
>like it's (magic) concept first, story second
The concept of magic is not first, or else these texts would read like an alchemy primer. Magic and fightan is routinely glossed over, like in Eddas' "And more died on X's side than Y's side." The prop-concepts are not prime, they are secondary. By focusing on them enough to make them a coherent system (as you prefer) is to make them a kind of impersonal maincharacter of the story; it is because the authors want the story and the actual MCs to take centerstage that prop-concepts such as Magic, Qi, and God Items are never explicated. If they were, it should take a whole other volume to do satisfactorily, vis, an actual alchemy primer or DnD source book.

>and what is wrong with wanting a coherent magic system to larp with?
Nothing by itself; you are just looking for it in the wrong place. Writers obsess over character dev and story arcs; they are interested in the working mechanisms of the world, such as accounting and plumbing, mostly only at a cursory level. If [Zen and the art of Motorcycle Repair] was written with enough info to fix an actual Excelsior-Henderson X, the people who read it for [Zen] -the author's intended audience- will drop it.

Novelists are mostly character and story focussed people writing for a character and story focussed audience; even GW novels don't contain the actual rules as written.

You are looking for a specific quality, "a coherent larp system," in the wrong product, "a novel".

It will be more fruitful if you come up with a larp system for yourself. For once, (YOU) will need to write.

>>23357121
Anime and Branderson are two separate examples of fantasy being corrupted by video games

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>>23357013
Magic systems are soulless. Gandalf's arbitrary magic works to his benefit, for it adds to his mystery of character. Wizards in Tolkien's works are subtle, and they don't explain how they do what they do. The reader doesn't need to know HOW Gandalf does his magic or why he does so sparingly, the point is to show how wise and secretive he is. Wizards know things the layman couldn't.

>>23357737
Magic only needs to support the "law" of the story it's trying to tell. Tolkien uses it just right, when it's necessary to create wonder or fear. Any other reason is plotfaggotry or autism

>>23357013
God those fat ass nerds man

>>23358684
>It doesn't matter at all, and anyone who cares is an autistic nerd. The story, characters, and vibes are what make HP memorable.
This. And I'd say not even characters and story, just the general "vibe" is what people actually ever liked from this crap.

>>23358652
Many of the best fantasy stories have never explained their magic. Similarly to the horror genre, explaining the monster, its origins and how it works will remove the awe and terror. It’s such a simple and common sense idea, but only anime fags who don’t actually read have this problem with the concept of narrative focus and mystery. Many modern writers would rather, as another anon in this thread put it, “larp” like they’re playing/inventing some shitty videogame or tabletop. Novels need good CHARACTERS, PLOT, WORLD, and THEMES. Magic is mostly just a narrative and symbolic tool, or at best a thematic element being explored to imagine some kind of future technology (such as in Wolfe and the dying earth genres). The most an author should strive for in their own understanding of a magic system is to ensure that there is some believable consistency throughout the story - like Gandalf using mostly light, fire, and telekinetic magic throughout LoTR. There can be some specific internal rules, but ONLY THE AUTHOR should know about them directly. The audience should never understand the specifics behind how magic works, allowing them to infer or create certain details in their mind because it makes for better reading. Ultimately, the author is free to do whatever he wishes, so long as it comes off as believable, and doesn’t break the suspension of disbelief or primary tone and themes of the narrative.

>>23357121
This is not remotely a problem caused by anime
It's entirely causes by video games and table top you dumb western shill

>>23357081
To the autists, it is. These don't sympathize with human struggles, but with numbers and systems.

>>23358592
mistborn is his best work, let that sink in...

>>23358781
Yeah, but WHEN can he do what he does? And why doesn't he do it at other times?

You know, not everything needs to be absolute and one sided.
I can appreciate video gamey systems intended to translate into a playable story. But I also enjoy stories that make magic something incomprehensible and unexplained.

Just like how I enjoy elves wearing chainmail Bikinis bouncing their tits around fighting orcs. I also enjoy hardcore down to earth extremely modest aesthetics.

I'm not trying to be the centrist voice. I think an author should commit to either one. Trying to math Gandalf's magic wouldn't work. Imagine it was read like a play by play of a DND tabletop session where they explain Gandalf used his 5th level spell on a 1d5 roll and won. Sounds fucking gay.

>>23357114
>magic is very unrealistic
whoa no shit redditor
kys

>>23359527
>but WHEN can he do what he does
When he does it
>And why doesn't he do it at other times?
because he chooses not to
Asking these questions about something which you're intentionally not told the mechanics of is pointless.

>you're not supposed to notice contradictions or find satisfaction in creative and interesting solutions to problems, stories are all about feelings
Soft magic fags are mental women.

>>23359743
no, the fact the the reader is left with no answer for this questions means that the narrative is flawed and don't give enough information what reducing magic to just and deus ex machina, a contrived asspull

>>23357081
This

>>23359773
this
how does circe turn odysseus's men into pigs? it isn't adequately explained and it really pulls me out of the narrative because it exists solely to push the story forward and it's so obvious. at least the lotus eater plants made sense because plants = happy fun time

>>23357013
Save it for the dnd table, nerd

>>23357013
Magic systems are important when the protagonists are the ones interacting with the magic, not explaining anything just makes the story less satisfying and feels a bit sloppy imo.

A man who turns into a werewolf during the full moon but is weak to silver is more interesting that just a dude who can turn into a big monster for no reason.

>>23357207
>Magic is supposed to be extramundane.
Magic can be extramundane and have rules. Furthermore, the reader doesn't have to understand, or even have knowledge of, those rules. What's important is that the author knows and understands enough so that magic isn't inconsistent and doesn't become a get out of jail free crutch.

>>23359832
>how does circe turn odysseus's men into pigs?
By getting them drunk and greedy for worldly pleasures. There is an underlying system that doesn't need to be explained.

>>23358795
This
>What follows...should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles, either.

>>23359832
you also need to consider the cultural background of what the audience as plausible, for mythological stories the audience were people that really believed that magic was real and already had some idea of what it could and couldn't do, so no explanation was needed because the people already knew how magic was supposed to work in the world they knew
The problem arrive when the audience has no clue of what can or can't be done with magic, an as we today deal with an audience that don't consider magic to be real and with stories playing in words that aren't our own, nor of classical mythology, certain things need to be explain for the sake of the story

>>23358795
so you're making a point for the sake of being pretentious. because we both know that what you suggest shouldn't be; is, in fact, dominating the genre.

>>23359773
You're making lots of assumptions about what makes a good narrative and presuming much, I hope you're not one of those "my lit professor told me this is what makes a good story" types.

>>23357013
>This was maybe my answer to Tolkien,
I don't recall Tolkien ever asking

>>23360149
>dominating the genre.
Sanderson fans will never cope with the fact that Elden Ring chose Martin over him will they?

>>23357013
Imagine if genre slop writers focused on improving their dialogue and characters instead of building overcomplicated magic systems that only nerds blush over.

>>23360180
Why can't a book have good characters, dialogue, setting AND a sick ass magic system with rules?

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>>23359516
Anime dindu nuffin. Disregard the obsession with rankings, numerification of power, skill categorization and taxonomies, and so on. As a purely narrative media as compared to games, the damage it has done is far worse, by way of not only creating the precedent but inspiring those who grew up on it as their main source of storytelling. I don't care about your >anime website argument, I won't pretend to be oblivious to the damage anime has caused to a whole generation of retards just to fit in.

>>23357013
>We look at real magic systems and it’s not that simple.
Because magic doesn't exist. What a faggot.

some anon are conflating cultural significance of classics to some sort of law.
dismissing the literal fact that these novels are being churned out and CONSUMED for a reason. and dismissing anything that isn't a modern classic as irrelevant.
art is iterative, and there's been thousands of years between some of these examples.
not everything is some timeless classic existing in a void. nor has shit ever been, really.. hence cultural significance. no one is teaching apollodorus' prose in whatever practical writing classes.

>>23360191
they can, and do.

try to convince sanderson he's wrong when his bank account has more numbers than a litrpg.

>>23360198
>the damage
what damage ?

>>23360216
If a tree falls in the forest and you plug your ears, does it make a sound? It probably did not that you'd ever admit to it.

>>23360198
Talk about bias, Again, all of these were caused by video games, you just don't want to put blame on YOUR favorite hobby.

>>23360203
Neither do the characters in the last book you read. Things don't have to be real in order to realistic, to make sense and to be well written. If I wrote a character that acted randomly, like he just pulls out a gun and murders someone out of the blue and the story moves on without talking about it, you'd be skeptical too. Hmm, wait, why is this guy violent, where did that come from? Why did he kill someone? Why is everyone in the story ignoring the blaring contradictions?

>>23360214
Fifty Shades of Grey author has sold more though and was actually adapted into several movies. Sucks to suck I suppose.

>>23360237
People are real.
Magic is not.
You can write realistic people. You cannot write realistic magic.

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>>23357013
>We look at real magic systems

>>23360242
i think it was originally a twilight fanfic too. maybe plagiarized from one. something like that
it's also not some zero some game, copenigger

>>23360250
sum* FUCK

>>23360229
so you can't point to anything ?

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>>23360235
Games by necessity need to be comprehensible in a quantifiable manner and have sets of rules to govern the act of playing, you cretin. This applies to any form of play, even physical, just look at sports scoring and rulings. The difference here is that anime is a narrative media like I said in my original post, which makes it a worse offender as it did not NEED to cling so tightly to all this numeric and ruleset autism, and yet it did, whereas video gaems could never have made that choice as they are by their very nature games. You absolute retard.

The disbelief when I discovered, not only is this guy one of the biggest names in fantasy, but he also TEACHES writing in a uni on a professional level.

I'm at the part in Way of Kings when he describes the fingerless glove women who dominate this corner of the world. Supposed to be real geopolitical in these pages, but the attention to fingerless gloves got to me. And the dom mommy matriarchs aren't even attractive based on his descriptions.

Is this worth continuing? Or does he continue like this for the entire series. I'm a simple fantasy guy. I even like WoT; but ofc also ASoIaF, LotR, Earthsea, the Drizzt series (lmao don't feel like searching the series name. The writing wasn't great, but the story was good. I was a kid at the time).

>>23360248
there is a bunch of historical magical systems that people truly believed in and that are much more autistic than most fantasy ones

>>23360245
when someone refers to a realistic magic system, they mean in the context of the fantasy world. believable might be a better word, but it doesn't mean they're believing magic is real either. you dig?

>>23360261
you still fail to present any problem

>>23360273
I can show you. Got a mirror at home?

>>23360277
still no arguments, and still failing to point any problem

>>23360277
think ur mum does. I'll be coming by to see what that sluts up to

>>23360280
Ah I forgot you autists only understand things if they are delivered as bullet point lists. My bad, but you're too low-functioning for anything beyond your special interests to enter any part of your tiny mind.

>>23360262
don't think anyone else on earth has been so affected by that bit of worldbuilding. you're about to unlock something inside yourself. you SHOULD continue.

>>23360286
You are effeminate.

>>23360286
you consistently fail to make any argument or point to any problem, you just throw insults and bitching about anime

>>23357013
This need to turn magic into an energy system is widely found in Harry Potter fanfiction.

>>23360295
As opposed to the absolute standards of manliness that are anime trannies?
>>23360298
If you can't read the argument in my words then you can't understand it. And it's a very simple one, mate. You're just that much of an idiot. Is that why there's so much needless exposition and over-explaining in anime, because people like you are the audience? You ever comprehended a sentence beyond the immediate sequence of meanings of its words?

>>23357013
I know this is a fake quote. This >>23357204 is the real quote. It's basically GRRM being a hack with a massive inferiority complex as usual with his "muh gritty" thing. But I'll reply to it as though it is a real quote anyway, to illustrate why this quote is as dumb as GRRM's quote.

>We look at real magic systems and it’s not that simple.
Historically speaking, it is. Regardless of what culture or region of the world you look in, there is never a unified, or anything close a generalized understanding of magic. But there are tropes or archetypes in all time periods and places. Wizards, for instance, are a common fixture in every culture. It doesn't matter if the Medieval nerds have elaborate theories on how magic worked, they also believed they were wizards who just cast magic. How? They don't know, but they assume it's probably evil shit. On the other hand, there's saints, who can create miracles through prayers and do good. Their magic is just as vague, but it's from God because they're Christians and it's generally in service of others or justice, so it's good.

Even the rules and metrics we do have, they differ greatly going from one grimoire to another. Look in some basic Key of Solomon or its derivative works, and you simply form a contract, like a legal contract, with a demon to do your bidding. But look at, say, The Book of Abramelin, and you get an elaborate system of first purifying yourself by living as a hermit ascetic for 6 months, in increasingly difficult ways, and then getting in touch with your guardian angel, and finally essentially blackmailing a demon by using your angel to threaten them and guilt tripping the demon by listing its wrongdoings to make it do your bidding. Both come with various risks too.

Is this a coherent system? No. In the scope of a single book, it might be, but in our history, the system changes from grimoire to grimoire, it's inconsistent and incomprehensible. Not a science that can be understood.

>>23360287
10-4 I decided to give it a go when I saw this thread. I don't actually mind if it turns out to be dog shit. In fact, bad books can be just as entertaining imo (I borrowed it from the library so it's not like he's making $$ off me)

>>23360198
>>23357121
>>23360261
Ok but you're failing to draw a proper connection to anime.
Even anime suffers from this in their isekai genre. And this trend across both anime and lit are both drawn from video games.

If you're a salty capeshit nerd who's upset about Japanese dominance in the west maybe you should be complaining at shit writers, not blaming fucking anime like a retard.

>>23360313
you made no argument or point to any problem, only bitched about anime and comprehensive systems without explaining why those are espoused to be a problem

>>23360329
If I haven't then what are you arguing against? Are you and idiot? If I have presented nothing then I clearly cannot have said anything that you disagree with it.

>>23360313
You're right about anime, you just posted like a fag. But desu I didn't read the whole chain and you were previously posting like a person so the other guy is a bigger fag.

Ultimately there's plenty of blame for both formats. Vidya turned readers and writers into braindead hacks, and the anime industry decided it was going to exclusively use that hackery for scripts, which created a feedback cycle.

>>23360321
i've read so much fantasy, and can safely say it is 'good', it just happens to be a product of our time. so anon has no choice but to hate it.

>>23360334
just because you tried to argue doesn't mean you made any argument, you only made statements against systematic, taxonomy and comprehensiveness in narratives, without providing any reason for why those are problems to begin with
you mistake opinions for arguments

>>23360335
>turned readers and writers into braindead hacks
how and why ?

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Sometimes I'm just confused at retards that just want to argue in circles for an hour. Jesus fucking Christ

>>23357121
Retard
>>23360198
Retard
>>23360229
Retard
>>23360261

Now fuck off

>>23360207
>they can, and do
Really? What are some examples?

>>23360335
Well you and him are both retards, so why don't you two blow each other since you want to be gay retards.

Imagine defending western goyslop after this past decade. Jesus Christ, you must be the most Souless golem.

>>23360347
They were taught to associate fantasy with formulaic tropes and necessarily shallow and artificial systems. "Thief" is a Skill you can Level with the Experience Points you get from Dungeon Quests because programming something as complex as real world skill and growth would be hard. But spending their time making numbers go up taught gamers to not treat those abstractions as necessary evils, and instead as something inherent to the genre.

>>23360357
No one's defending western goyslop you big homo.

>>23360354
see OP, for one

>>23358645
You're retarded, get out.

>>23360357
Western lit is slop but acting like modern jap lit is any better is incredibly laughable.

>>23360478
if you actually read you'd probably be able to articulate an argument

>>23360262
Way of Kings is the best book in the Stormlight Archive by a pretty fucking large margin.

>>23360537
Why would I want to argue with a retard?

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>>23357013
this quote makes me angry
i choose not to read this thread

>>23360542
how often are you frustrated with not being able to communicate? often? guess your only option is: seethe

>>23357013
I do think ASoIaF is fantastic, but must this old fat fuck be such a faggot about some things?

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>>23357013
what an absolute brainlet

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>Magic is hard. This was maybe my answer to Shakespeare, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. The Tempest had a very medieval sense of magic systems: the wizard was magical, the magic would happen. We look at real magic systems and it’s not that simple. Shakespeare can say that Prospero was a wizard and cast Call Lightning against Alonso's ship. But Shakespeare doesn't ask the question: Where was Prospero's magic system? Did he have rules and metrics? Where did he show his magic meter and how much magic he could cast at a time? What does he do if he runs out of mana? And what about other magical things? By the end of the story there are still Ariel, Caliban, and other magical beings and items. Did they have to have their enchantments renewed?

I think what pisses me off about people referring to Gandalf as soft magic is that they see him more as a dnd wizard rather than an avatar of divine power.

>>23360811
very simple, but extremely effective. sanderson seems like a retard when addressing tolkien, but when he's addressing shakllespeare he enters drooling moron, sub moronic category. I didn't think my estimation of the man could drop any lower, but you effortlessly made it so. calling him a hack is an insult to hacks. your average, garden variety hack is closer to shakespeare in talent than to sanderson in hackery. good lord

>>23358689
He is the holder of Narya, the elven ring of fire.

>>23359743
This is what infantilization looks like. If there aren't well defined limits to magical powers, it removes all stakes, especially if high power levels are shown but then mysteriously aren't used when they would be extremely helpful to solve the plot. For an author to say, "I don't have to explain anything, it works because I say so and when I need it to not work it just doesn't work then", it is extremely disrespectful to the reader and literally treats the audience like small children. Contrivances are the mark of an author who is not diligent or intelligent enough to build a world with consistency and stay within those rules while the narrative unfolds. You see this in Hollywood a lot, the writers paint themselves into a corner and then do some ridiculous ass-pull to save the heroes at the last second. It's insultingly primitive and sloppy writing.

>>23360909
Does this avatar of divine power have a specific skill set? Does this avatar of divine power truly wish for the ring to be destroyed? Then he should use the maximum utility of his skills to achieve this end, right? Trying to make him mysterious changes nothing of the criticism.

>>23361102
>Does this avatar of divine power truly wish for the ring to be destroyed? Then he should use the maximum utility of his skills to achieve this end, right?
he does and he did. He did everything he could to see the ring destroyed. what we witnessed were the limits of his power. nothing mysterious about it at all

>>23360811
>The Tempest had a very medieval sense of magic systems: the wizard was magical, the magic would happen.
It's funny because in a medieval magic system the wizard isn't magical. He just knows the proper way to bind magical entities like Ariel to his will.

>>23357013
Sci-fi/fantasy writers are autistic, so its harder for them to actually inhabit another person's consciousness or express it well enough to create real characters or a compelling narrative upon which to hang their ideas.

It's even worse when you're an untalented hack like Sanderson, and not a PKD or Heinlein.

>>23357013
it adds to the mystique. having some gay shit where you say some specific words + hold a special rock = fireball reduces magic to just being a lame weapon like a gun. using it sparingly without a bunch of explained rules is more fun. plus it lets you keep the medieval battles without opening questions like "why didn't they just cast meteor to instakill all the the orcs".

it only really matters in visual mediums

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>>23357013
itt:

>>23357013
Dungeons and Dragons was a mistake.

>>23357114
Magic in LOTR is just the grace of god and/or the devil abusing the power god allocated to it
BECAUSE TOLKIEN WAS A CHRISTIAN FFS
You want a magic system that follows rules and stuff like physics go read fantasy by atheist authors like Le Guin

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>>23357204
>Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

>>23361134
do you really think you read or know enough to make this claim?

>>23357204
Tolkien was a christian and orcs in his universe are tainted with sin, if you ask a devout christian if an unbaptized human baby goes to hell the answer is yes because the baby is tainted by the primordial sin. At least Dante put them in a circle where nothing happens because he didn't want his beloved pagan intellectuals to suffer unjustly
Though to be fair even Tolkien wasn't really okay with the idea that people get to be condemned because of shit they, as individuals, didn't do. Too bad he died because he could correct that about orcs
And that's why atheist fantasy is better

>>23359527
Disregard the other idiot. He never read lotr
>WHEN can he do what he does? And why doesn't he do it at other times?
When god allows him to
You gotta know what he can do in the first place. He's literally an angel on a mission from god, he is allowed to encourage and inspire hope and resistance in the hearts of the children of god, but nothing else because god ordered him to respect his children's free will (so if they side with Sauron because life is shit and they can't take it anymore he can blame them for making the wrong choice and not have enough blind faith, typical abrahamic shit)
>why doesn't god just smite Sauron?
something something through pain and suffering greater works will be revealed or something like that, again typical abrahamic snake oil shit, suffer now you're totally gonna get those 42 virgins in paradise wink wink

>>23361553
Le Guin, an atheist, actually writes about people accepting/overcoming their flaws and integrating well into society
Funny how it's atheists who push for kindness and atonement and redemption and not christians

>>23361587
Christians just want genocide and slaughter.

Is the reason why Tolkien seethed so much at Dune because the Lisan Al-Gaib لسان الغيب exposes abrahamic religion for the political ploy and genocidal power grab it is? I think yes.
Why do fantasy authors continue to not understand that if they want to attack Tolkien they just need to worldbuild like Herbert, is what I don't understand.

>>23357013
>EVERYTHING MUST BE EXCRUCIATINGLY ANALYZED
This kills the magic

>>23357013
>the ring of the curse
>wagner
The best fantasy story ever.

>>23361614
Dune is like that and it's a fantastic book, you people are just lazy and don't want to study

>>23361536
>Magic in LOTR is just the grace of god and/or the devil abusing the power god allocated to it

That or industry.

Fantasyshit was a mistake.

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>>23357013
>Cleaning pans is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with, Jesús. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval sense of pan maintenance: hobbit had pan, the cooking would happen. We look at real pans and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Sam was loyal and had cast iron pans to use against Fell Beasts, Jesús. But Tolkien doesn't ask the question: Where did Sam's clean his pans? Did he have access to a beach and rope? Jesús, where did Sam tell him to clean the pans and how low was the tide at the time? What does he do if he loses the pans in a high tide, Jesús? And what about the customers arriving at 2pm? By the end of the story there are uncooked meals, possibly a big sack of rice. Did they have to bring other pans from Bree, did San pay for the lost pans, Jesús?"

>>23361637
Dune had the advantage of being written before rpgs were created (or became mainstream in case I'm just ignorant of pre D&D rpgs.]).

>>23361095
>If there aren't well defined limits to magical powers, it removes all stakes, especially if high power levels are shown but then mysteriously aren't used when they would be extremely helpful to solve the plot
Not if the author is half decent. Magic doesn't need defined limits or an explanation if either of them diminishes the mystique of magic power, the audience does not need to know just how many times Gandalf can cast his spells, only that Galdalf is an extremely old, wise, and powerful being whose powers are beyond the understanding of the audience and the characters in the story. The audience not knowing the specifics makes Gandalf's role as a powerful, almost divine force of good that much clearer. It isn't even as if Gandalf doesn't talk about the limits of his powers, he just doesn't go into a diatribe about how he has to swallow a crystal each morning to cast magic missle at level 2.

>>23361589
christians can't wait to die.
that's all the ritual in the religion amounts to: a performative dance inside death's waiting room

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>>23357013
>But Tolkien doesn't ask the question
Tolkien obviously did, subtext emphasises limits and interactions of magic repeatedly, he just knew that telling the reader the conclusion he came to (in autistic and excruciatingly bland detail) wouldn't be a good idea.

Pic related has more magic in it than anything Sanderson has written, unironically.

We’re all well aware at this point how the manchildren D&D players of fantasy fiction quibble with Tolkien and why at this point.

>>23361637
Dune sucks

>>23361587
> atheists resort to kitsch and unjustified moralizing
Yeah, we know n

It’s funny that purveyors of fantasy slop are still criticizing Tolkien while they continue to fail to surpass him in any regard. Brand Sanderson is a nobody writer. When he dies, his books will die with him. There is nothing particularly remarkable about them, nothing that deserves mention as a part of some grand tradition, nothing, frankly, worth re-reading multiple times. The idea that he has any ground to stand on when it comes to a critique of Tolkien is absurd. The guy writes mediocre fast food fantasy for people with awful literary tastes, so if that’s your thing then yeah, I guess this take matters. For anyone with sense or taste this isn’t even worth considering seriously.

>>23361553
>if you ask a devout christian if an unbaptized human baby goes to hell the answer is yes because the baby is tainted by the primordial sin
Stopped reading there. Not even close to true. At least get your stuff right if you're gonna fling shit at the heckin fantasy magic system

>>23362051
In a 100 years, Tolkien will be forgotten or used as a negative example, while Brandy Sanderson will be hailed as a classic author that raised genre fiction to the level of real literature. There will be people doing PhDs on how the physics in Mistborn works.

>>23362072
>There will be people doing PhDs on how the physics in Mistborn works.
Sadly, I believe it, but only because of how worthless the average PhD is.

>>23362069
Hold most firmly and never doubt that, not only adults with the use of reason but also children who either begin to live in the womb of their mothers and who die there or, already born from their mothers, pass from this world without the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, which is given in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, must be punished with the endless penalty of eternal fire. Even if they have no sin from their own actions, still, by their carnal conception and birth, they have contracted the damnation of Original Sin.
—Bishop St. Fulgentius

God is happy when little babies and unborn fetuses get tortured in hell!

>>23362069
>Pope St. Gregory the Great: When considering how God multiplied Job's wounds without cause (Job 9:17) Gregory reminds his readers that God does the same to unbaptized infants – after the wound of death "by a secret and righteous judgment... they even receive everlasting torments, who never sinned by their own will

>St. Augustine of Hippo: in Adam all sinned, and thus deserve Hell from the moment that they are conceived

I guess Tolkien was channeling his true inner christian when he suggested about little orc babies being damned since before they are even born? Daily reminder that Limbo and Purgatory are some Florentine poet's fanfiction invention.

>>23362037
>mercy, kindness, understanding, acceptance and redemption are unjustified
I mean what else could I expect from someone who thinks it's OK for Satan to torture a literal baby

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>>23362097
Not every Christian follows the doctrine of Original Sin
https://www.bible.ca/cal-T-refutation.htm

>>23362127
Tolkien did, he was a catholic lol
He even incorporated the original sin in his work, apparently the first humans had trouble naming things so they asked god for help and god said 'figure it out yourself' like the abusive piece of shit he is, so they turned to the only entity apparently willing to help and god punished them for seeking help
you literally cannot make this shit up

>>23362151
It's strange the way in this relate. It is merely a lost or not even disjointed. A fading reality.

>>23357013
yeah lotr would be so much better with an autistic convoluted over-explanation of the "rules" of magic instead of being vague and mysterious.

>>23357013
>We look at real magic systems
yes, the very real magic systems of the very real magic that we observe in the natural world
dude is arguing having whimsy in fantasy

>>23362114
>>23362097
>Daily reminder that Limbo and Purgatory are some Florentine poet's fanfiction invention.
And the turbo autist Popes and Bishops talking about le original sin for le babies isn't fanfiction? Retard

>>23362183
>oh no, extra fanfiction on top of my already fanfiction heavy jew fiction
remember, sweety, the Pope is chosen by God so what he says, goes. now pray to Mary. this is not idolatry, btw

>>23362072
Fat chance. He’s made it 100 years and I suspect he’ll make it another 100 years no problem.

>>23362434
I suspect his influence on the entire genre forces him to at least be a chapter of a uni course in centuries to come

>>23362434
He might get backlash for inspiring the isekai plague. Also as people get shorter attention spans the shitty start to the series will be more of a problem.

>>23357013
There's no way he actually said that, and if he did, it's the dumbest thing I've ever read.

Tolkien arguably had the best magic "system", in that magical creatures exuded their power as a natural course of their being. Elves were "magical", but the amazing feats they pulled were normal everyday life to them and they didn't think anything of it. Saying you need to replace that air of mystery with World of Warcraft DPS bubbles flying out of people's skulls is hard evidence you are a bad writer and your ideas are bad.

>>23362072
>while Brandy Sanderson will be hailed as a classic author
LMAO

>>23362446
Maybe but that's assuming that this zoomie consoomer culture will still be relevant 100 years from now. Chances are that that market is a genetic dead end so the secular people consooming who have no kids will probably have no big influence on the culture as they do now

>>23360262
>Is this worth continuing?
No. I got 250 pages into Way of Kings and dropped that shit. There was no plot at all, and it was painfully first-draft.

>The cart wheels turned
>and then the cart stopped
>and then the wheels of the cart turned more
>by the way, cart wheels turning
All in the same chapter.

His stuff reads like a parody of what a millennial thinks fantasy is, and the what he believes is deep is incredibly surface-level. I give GRRM credit in this corner, because despite GRRM's obvious lust for young flesh and his deliberate indulgence in needless detail about aristocratic families that don't exist, their histories, their arms, etc., he actually has decent prose and can write a chapter with impact. Way of Kings reads like a Sonic the Hedgehog fanfic.

>>23361566
This is still a bad justification. It's like when the religious claim "God works in mysterious ways" as a cop out to explaining anything. It's still a cop out, but likely the one Tolkien would have advanced.

>>23362037
This is what religion does to a person. Human solidarity, dignity, and the glorious heights of the human spirit are "kitsch and unjustified moralizing". Pity them, anons.

>>23362570
well he was a religious catholic so god works in mysterious ways is the literal basis for everything in lotr and all related works, that's why you people are looking at it wrong, there's no defined magic system because it's all based on religious faith

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>>23362072
>a classic author that raised genre fiction to the level of real literature

koolaide status: dranked

>>23362672
if you want magic defined like in a scientific manner you need to stop treating it like magic and start treating like another field of science, like physics or biology or mathematics, like how the Bene Gesserit are called witches in Dune but they are just extremely well-trained in biological control of nerves and muscles and organic-chemical control. You need science fiction

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>defines a simple magic system with law enforcement, prison, and government near you
Why is this so hard for other writers?

>>23362735
They care about not being retarded.

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>>23362745
What's retarded about wanting to grow up into the magical equivalent of an FBI agent?

>>23362761
government dog has never been a noble calling

>>23362766
that's what a criminal would say, this is why even the wizarding world needs law enforcement

>>23362780
when my faction takes over the government you're going straight to azkaban

>>23357773
>deus ex machina, which is bad story telling
reconsider this, if it's poorly thought out then it's poorly thought out

>>23358601
>I have no idea why modern fantasy writers have this obsession with magic "systems" as if they were trying to build up a new field of hard science or something
Brandon Sanderson does this because he's a mormon. He believes that after he dies, he will become a god and get to create his own universe and planets. So his exercises in autistic worldbuilding and magic systems are in his view, practice for when he ascends to godhood.

>>23357013
He is not wrong, he may be better at designing a magic system for a story but as a writer he is shit.

Jesus I hope this post was moved to lit from /v/ 9/10ths of the way through

"soft" magic is just better thematically though. If magic can be fully comprehended and understood, that isn't magic- it's science. "Hard" magic is a betrayal of the genre.

>>23360198
You're just objectively wrong. Those things are the product of tabletop games. Like, explicitly, you can trace the genealogy back directly. At this point they even use the terminology explicitly.

>>23361553
but just as inherent to christianity as original sin is the universal possibility of redemption

>>23357081
I would say, worldbuilding is more important than making a story.

>>23363685
I'd say you're the blackest retard gorilla nigger. I mean holy shit, imagine having that pleb tier take.

>>23363685
no wonder everyone thinks /lit/ is a bunch of branlets

>>23363685
I'm sorry anon, but they're right. Worldbuilding is the result of concepts you've incorporated into your story. Otherwise, with a world first approach, you get shit where every chapter is a lazy excuse to explore your world for no reason.
The obvious examples of concepts first approaches: LotR (man made a world to support the existence of his languages) and Dune (wanted to explore ecology and environmentalism, thus a distant future desert setting).
World-first approaches: WoT (Wanted LotR with Taoist themes. convoluted, first book is just LotR lite until the end), ASoIaF (for the sake of having his own world, later "what was Aragirn's tax policy", LotR with titties and TOO CONVOLUTED TO FINISH SATISFACTORILY).

>>23363915
>>23363776
Thank you, fags

>>23363953
Thanks man, now I will improve my storytelling and use worldbuilding as a crutch.

>>23363953
(self-posting) I just made a connection between world-first writers and stories that never fucking end. Robert Jordan died (GRRM will too) and someone else had to finish it. He loved to explore his world that much. An entire grouping of books can be skipped with nothing lost.

>>23357013
What a retard take, you want mana systems go to a videogame, you want energy go read some physics. Gandalf is a wizard and he does the shit he wants, and even so, his use of magic is pretty wise and consistent desu, go fuck yourself redditor.

>>23357013
Sandon Branderson is the Platonic form of Aspergers. The tism devil blessed with the ability to spew out an endless torrent of financially-successful books in exchange for his storytelling abilities, originality, sense of wonder, fun or any literary value.

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>>23357013
>gandalf didn't use magic like in my video games so it's unrealistic

>>23363019
Apparently this board is super easy to bait.

>>23363953
>a story is basically the same things as 'the existence of his languages'
What incoherent nonsense are you babbling? If LotR actually fit your story first narrative what would happened is
>hmm i think i want to tell a story about some nobody walking to a volcano
>welp better make up a bunch of fake languages to support that

>>23364207
You reversed what was said. Tolkien made the world to support the languages

>>23364213
Your conclusion is "story before worldbuilding good, worldbuilding before story bad". You say LotR is evidence of this because the languages came first. I don't understand what mental gymnastics you're pulling to think the languages in your world are not worldbuilding and are instead story.

>>23364216
I admit you may be correct. I was considering the order of things too strictly, but language is indeed a huge block in worldbuilding, regardless of which came first. Therefore I'm a retard. I'm off to bed and hope the bait thread dies with me

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>>23357121
Thank god I just read (quality) fantasy manga then.

>>23357013
Fantasy has never recovered from this mindset.

>noooooooo my character can't shoot infinite fireballs and break the rules of physics whenever it's convenient for me
>magic with rules is soulless bad bad bad bad i want to be surprised when he pulls out Save The Day spell out of his ASS at the climax moment this is GOOD WRITING

>>23364791
This but unironically.

>>23357013
I almost responded to this thread directly but I just keep looking at his smug face and it gets harder and harder to take anything he says seriously. I can't imagine being such a twerp or dweeb that I care about the degree to which magic in orcs and elves capeshit is abstracted away. I can't imagine caring about this, much less having a position on it. Can you imagine the disdain? Imagine you're Tolkien. You come back from fighting in the trenches in WWI to write your life's work. You encounter this bespectacled human fucking grub, this overgrown toddler of a man, who claims he "quibbles" you on some minor, completely tangential and inconsequential point of what you've written and does so with this maddeningly familiar tone; as if in his mind the two of you are contemporaries and equals. The disdain. The utter contempt. This little fag deserves nothing else.

>>23364804
>fighting
>trenches
99% of the time you just have to sit there and jerk off. Trench warfare was a stalemate for a reason.

>>23364808
>a pasty, do-nothing comic book and anime nerd pretends he has the slightest idea what was the human experience fighting at the Somme
You need to take Brandon Sandwich's cock out of your mouth and grow up

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Magic is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval sense of magic systems: wizard was magical, the magic would happen. We look at real magic systems and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Gandalf was a wizard and cast a spell of light against the Fell Beasts. But Tolkien doesn't ask the question: Where was Gandalf's magic system? Did he have rules and metrics? Where did he show his magic meter and how much magic he could cast at a time? What does he do if he runs out of mana? And what about other magical things? By the end of the story there are still other magical beings and items. Did they have to have their enchantments renewed?

There's already a mana system because the reader will only take a limited amount of the writers shit.

>>23364804
I can't imagine being so much of a newfag you can't recognize stale pasta.

>>23364048
I remember seeing a super best friends clip where they talk about how the fight between thanos and dr strange is how a wizard fight is supposed to look like as opposed to lotr lmao

>>23357013
Gandalf is an angel. Do you see Gabriel standing there with his flaming sword and ask about the nature of its enchantment? Of course not. It's fucking God-powered.

>>23357013
I wonder if he's as kind as he looks.

>>23364864
What is God's magic system then?
How much mana does he have?

>>23362072
the only phd theses written on sanderson will be ones calling him racist

>>23364927
>What is God's magic system then?
Whatever is written in the talmud
>How much mana does he have?
I don't think mana is the word rabbis use

>>23364927
>What is God's magic system then?
The divine authority of creation. Or the Flame Imperishable in Tolkein parlance.

>How much mana does he have?
mu

>>23364927
yahweh is powered by infant foreskins and suffering

>>23357013
So D&D? Sanderson is a dungeon master instead of an author

>christcucks are worse than fedora tippers
>the merest mention of an author with christian themes floods the thread with completely off topic athiestic shit flinging
this board is kill

>>23357013
Sanderson:
>Has a complaint with Tolkein
>Writes a series of successful YA books that would make a decent vidya gaem plot, might have had a shot at actually being good if he was less of a socially inept mormon

Gurm:
>Has a complaint with tolkein
>Writes a bunch of absolute drivel that has all of the same supposed faults as Tolkeins work with none of the parts that made it so compelling

>>23365840
Is this seethe supposed to be anti GRRM or am I supposed to take it at face value?

>>23365874
Both

>>23358652
>come join me in magic system town
aka, the autistic retard village

>>23357013
>attempting to quasi-scientifically quantify magic, a concept which by its nature resists scientific and quantitative analysis
this is the most autistic thing i've ever read

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>>23362735
>Modern day
>But there's Witch people
>Who live in secret
>Witch people's kids go to school
>They teach witchcraft
>They don't teach normal stuff
>Adult witch people are very ignorant about normal people
>they live surounded by normal people whom they have to keep magic secret form
It's not coincidence this crap came out and became popular when reading comprehension amongst adults was already falling below third grader's level.

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Hard magic systems are more unbelievable than soft magic systems, since it is foolish to think everyone would agree on what magic is systemically. It ignores societal psychology. It’s why science isn’t considered magic, despite descending from it.

Soft magic? It can literally be anything as long as it isn’t understood fully. That’s “magic”. A veil of mystery you place over something. A sleight of view. Words like occult, the arcane, esoteric, mysticism, etc, denote as much. It is even in the latter’s name.

Magic is a soft term, not a hard term. Closer to proxy/placeholder than anything concrete. A gap. It exists the same way dark, cold, or holes, exist. It is an absence. An absence of understanding, an absence of agreement, etc. Magic to one is not going to be magic to another. In academia, academics had to settle. They had to agree. Magic is disagreeable.

Initiation and exclusivity are also big parts of it. Exposure logic. Entering the gates to Wonderland. Magic lies within the mind's eye.

Even Tolkien understood this, and he is intentionally ironic and contradictory when it comes to magic: His elves don't even believe in (elven) magic. The black machines of Mordor are likened to black magic. He enjoyed the mystique that came with the confusion, but he also hated modernity's war against the magic and mystery and art of nature. Magic to the elves is just Art.

In the scientific world, where everything is deconstructed/reconstructed, you eventually realize that magic IS "magic". You apply it ("magic") to something. Anything. It is the sufficiently bewildering, the sufficiently mysterious, wondrous, etc.

If mystery, wonder, horror, etc, make magic, or keeps the magic, then ignorance is the greatest magic of all.

Keep it secret, keep it safe.

>>23367788
Sandercuck doesn’t want to acknowledge any of this

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>>23367788
Dune works well with the Bene Gesserit being so extremely well-versed at organic-chemical control they are basically extremely powerful witches. Why can't a field of science make one so powerful it's basically magic? What's the difference between Lady Jessica and a wizard?

>>23360198
>the obsession with rankings, numerification of power, skill categorization and taxonomies, and so on
Anime and games didn't invent that. That's the invention of progression fantasy, which until recently wasn't a western thing. LotR and the Hobbit are not progression fantasy, they are soft fantasy. The reason that the books have no magic system is a multi-part issue though.

It's mostly because Tolkien was a jew worshipper who hated modern society, and because neither the Hobbit or LotR had a magic user as a main character. The magic is meant to be fast and loose because magic is dying and wizards are just a proxy for angels.

Gandalf is allowed to just wave his staff, fall off a cliff, then come back and do a funny dance to summon some light because he's not the main character, nor is magic the focus of LotR. Now if Frodo was attending a magic school for hobbits and magic was never explained (it just works xd) it'd be a big plot hole.

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>>23367995
The funny thing is that there is a very popular franchise out there about a boy wizard attending a magic school with power rankings and stuff and nobody questions that.

>>23367932
Dune science is weird-science, and it’s already basically magic.

The Bene Gesserit are “witches” the same way the maia are “wizards”.

They have access to highly arcane and exclusive secrets. It’s occult.

>Why can't a field of science make one so powerful it's basically magic?
What? Like guns? That’s no longer exclusive or esoteric.

The Bene Gesserit don’t openly use the Voice, because exposure ruins it.

>>23368009
People have question HP to death, anon. Half the shit doesn't make sense. Maybe it's because Harry is a dumbass compared to everyone else but Ron.

Now, there's a mention of a class in the books that would discuss things like this, but we never see Harry attending Magical Theory classes. Hell, despite being a book about kids in a magic school, Harry is rarely ever shown doing any learning. We're just "told" that he has off-screen. The closest we get to Harry being shown about magic is in Book 3. Ironically Book 3 is the best book in the series.

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>>23367932
What’s the difference between the stereotypical wizard and the mad scientist?

They’re rather indistinguishable in-method. Eerily so.

— ‘no sense of right and wrong’
— ‘it’s not a matter of could, but should’
— ‘all progress demands sacrifice’
— ‘sweet, man-made horrors beyond my comprehension’
— ‘oh-my-science, what have I done’

Modern day science is also a descendent of past magical thought.

>>23357013
he is a genre writer. that's all he is. tolkien transcendence genres. lord of the rings is one of the most important literary work of the 20th century and possibly until humanity dies out.

>>23357725
Does Tolkien manipulate fire because of his innate abilities or because of Narya?

>>23357725
It’s not hard at all.

Tolkien is intentionally inconsistent about how his “magic” works, and even follows Clarkean “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” logic. It’s why his elves don’t believe in magic, and why the black machines of Mordor are likened to black magic. He’s said at times that humans can’t learn or obtain magic, but then goes on to name human sorcerers and such.

It’s intentionally muddied and nuanced. Tolkien believed magic was supposed to be confusing and contradictory, and the elves definitely don’t view their works as magic, and they look to the wizards the same way men and hobbits view the elves. Galadriel was genuinely confused by Frodo’s “what magic is this” remarks.

I really think this is something that comes down to storytelling goals. You explain something as much as it benefits the story you're trying to tell.
It's tempting to think oh you want to explain your magic system to help in creating a deeper more powerful lore. But it's Tolkien that exactly proves you don't need to do this to have deep and powerful lore.
The logical extension is to think well explaining the magic system then is just a shortcut for easy plot points but I think that's a bit unfair. "Magic" is the easy plot point to begin with if you want to look at it that way.

>>23368031
Guns are accessible to everyone. Not everyone is genetically predisposed to use the Voice. A better comparison would be special government drugs, MI6 gadgets or nuclear weapons, scientific tools that are still restricted to a small selected audience.

>>23368033
>People have question HP to death
And still couldn't find a legitimate flow with it. "But Harry does not attend classes" is not legit since he has Hermione to pass him that information.

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>>23368164
The problem with an explicit magic system is the problem Tolkien managed to avoid. It’s what >>23367788 said. Magic to one isn’t going to be magic to another, and trying to hard define magic misses the soft psychological angle of it.

Look at the Church. Pic-related. It was a self-hating, self-prosecuting mages guild by any other name. The whole magic vs miracles thing is fundamentally flawed, and you can just as easily replace miracles with science. It’s all magic.

>>23368177
>Not everyone is genetically predisposed to use the Voice.
Humans in Dune are predisposed to be genetically warped in-general. The more the Voice is used on people, the more they become resistant to it. This is why they’re very, very subtle and secretive about it.

Also, the Bene Gesserit get paid a *lot* of money to teach and train random noblewoman, due to the air of prestige that goes along with it. So yes, anyone can learn the Voice. You can even learn to resist it. Paul taught his guards how to resist it.

As for guns/gunpowder, the Chinese discovered blackpowder several times before they took it elsewhere. The last time was “an accident”. Saltpetre was known as “Chinese snow” over there, it was so common. Even then, it was an esoteric recipe for many, many centuries.

>>23368177
>Guns are accessible to everyone
“That’s no longer exclusive or esoteric.”

Readlet.

>>23368208
Being paid to teach does not mean everyone has the ability to learn. Iirc Irulan cannot use the Voice even though she's trained by the Bene Gesserit. Also the Bene Gesserit don't teach all their secrets to just any random family that pays. One could argue Idaho was destined to learn resistance to the Voice being one of Paul's companions.

>>23368304
Not everyone is equivalently talented, no. The Bene Gesserit also teach men how to fight using the weirding way.

>>23368304
>Also the Bene Gesserit don't teach all their secrets to just any random family that pays.
This just makes them come across as even more occult.

>>23368321
>>23368314
How come there aren't any Sandersons or Grrms going after Herbert the way they go after Tolkien?

>>23368346
Grrm’s idea of magic actually meshes well with Tolkien’s. Magic is just a word for mystery, horror, wonder, etc. The specifics and mechanics aren’t important. You don’t ask a magician for their secrets do you? Even in asoiaf people confuse poisoners with sorcerers and alchemists with wizards, although they may well have access to sketchy shit. It was like that in history as well.

>>23368354
Ok but my question was, how come Herbert doesn't generate the same amount of "I can do better!" in contemporary writers like in OP's post? You don't see scifi writers claiming they can do Space Jihad better than Herbert or asking about Paul's tax policy.

>>23357013
Wow. That guy got filtered beyond belief.

>>23368031
>>23368033
Can you not format your post like a faggot?
>>23368369
Herbert doesn't have nearly the same amount of influence on the sci-fi genre as Tolkien had in the fantasy genre.
Also anyone that thinks the tax policy quote was some kind of earnest critique is an actual retard.

>>23368691
>grrm was just pretending to be retaded

>>23368806
He might actually be. Creating so many plotlines that have to tie in without any plan wasn't the brightest

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>>23368691
>Herbert doesn't have nearly the same amount of influence on the sci-fi genre as Tolkien had in the fantasy genre.
That's because the sci-fi genre is, ironically, more creative than the fantasy genre.

HxH's power system sucks because it tries to create a rules as if it's a hard system but it still functions as a soft system.

>>23368806
What do you think the context of that quote was? Enlighten me.

>>23369018
The context was a fat hack actually believing the idiocy he was spewing. Prove me wrong, you can't.

>>23369037
is he really a hack or just unable to deliver? i think hack implies he cuts corners whereas this is a case of aiming too high

>>23369037
I don't need to prove someone wrong when they're clearly not confident that they're right.

>>23369040
He endorsed the tv show in its entirety.

>>23367788
Magic is defined as things that only some genetically predisposed nerds can do by saying words.

Isn't magic in Tolkien partaking to the song of creation? Like you alter reality with your will, but it has to be "with the song" which prevents spell spamming.

>>23357013
I have never read the lord of the rings. My mom said dnd is for nerds/satanists and I think that is the funniest reason not to indulge in Tolkien, but he probably writes well.

>>23357204
>Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Fucking comma splices will be the reason I kill myself.

>>23370661
That's not a comma splice

>>23357013
>>23357114
Do you really want Tolkien to give you a detailed explanation on how God and one of his angels do their miracles?

>>23359533
I think it could be cool to try and implement a more vague type of magic in games, but I could imagine it being a bit annoying if trying to summon things just doesnt work until some vague prophecy is fulfilled. Weirdly one of the things that comes to mind for this kind of magic is when in simons quest you have to kneel in that fucking random corner for no reason and it summons a tornado

>>23370694
It wouldn't be a bit annoying. it would be nobody wants to play your shit game because the gameplay mechanics are shit.

>>23370691
Eh it cheapens the whole thing though. I understand Tolkien was a convinced catholic blah blah blah, but the idea that it's just up to the whim of the catholic god is sad and makes me enjoy the work less. I liked it better when gandalf was just a cool wizard and not a biblical angel.

>>23370699
shut up bitch

Every time a Mormon talks, I wanna throw it down a flight of stairs and watch it die.

>>23360262
read the first two books and was forgiving of the direct style of his writing because the world was interesting at first. However, as prolific a writer as he is, the nuance starts to disappear. His prose is atrocious at times and eventually got bored and stopped caring. Just couldnt make it past the first 50 or so pages in book 3

>>23371038
>>23362987
he went to BYU for 6 years, no wonder he writes the way he does, he spent his whole youth living based on Joe Smith's magic system. look up mormon temple ceremony secret handshakes and "garments" and it all makes sense

>>23357013
The world is getting so autistic about everything and nothing is fun any more.
I fucking hate this.

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>>23371562
agreed. we must usher in a revolution to destroy these degenerates and bring back classical sensibility

>>23367788
This entire post is correct.

>>23367788
>This fictional concept works THIS WAY

You're literally more retarded than Sanderson, at least he doesn't try to convince people magic works the way he makes it work in every settings outside of his own.

>>23372197
But, anon. Magic is whatever the fuck you want it to be. Magic to one isn't necessarily magic to another. Magic lies within the mind's eye.

>>23357013
Magic systems are for the author, not the reader. Sanderson will never be a good writer.

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>>23357013
The best scene to describe Tolkien's magic system, imo., is the encounter with the barrow wights. Where Tom Bombadil comes in to save the hobbits, and he sings the wights back to sleep. And you get this very clear impression that the magic works a lot like music, in the way that music alters your perceptions to make you feel different things. Like you're in a room with a good mood, you can make jokes and poke fun at people and it's all in good humor. But you're in a room with a bad mood, and the same behaviours can lead to you getting your ass kicked or worse. Obviously, it's not real in some physical sense, it's psychological, but that's why it's *magic*; it makes the psychological physical.

A lot of "soft" magic works this way. It relies upon the way its victims and practitioners *feel* to have its effect.

But think this is too subtle and hard-to-define for spergs to understand, so they gravitate towards "hard" magic systems instead.
I do include myself in the category of sperg, which is why I've started to really hate hard magic systems. They're all exactly how *I* would make a magic system. Which makes them boring and unimaginative and not very... magical.

>>23357013
NGL, I really like Full Metal Alchemist and Avatar the Last Airbender's magic systems. There were reasonably clear restrictions which forced characters (and the author) to be creative, but also room for flexibility and mystery.

>>23373911
FMA's was boring as fuck because they didn't actually do much with it. Bending is cool though.

>>23357013
>We look at real magic systems
Real magic?

>>23373914
I agree in the sense that alchemy should have had more visible impact on society, since it would radically alter things like industry and technology, but I do still disagree with you overall. I get where you're coming from though, and I hope you have a good day.

>>23373047
>Magic to one isn't necessarily magic to another. Magic lies within the mind's eye.
Autism

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>>23357013
I wondered that as a kid, then I grew up and realized that it's a fucking stupid question. It's magic, nigga. Don't gotta explain SHIT.

>>23368156
This is the correct answer

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>>23357240
>Real magic

>>23374031
Your kid self had a more curious nature and couldn't be so easily fooled with lazy writing.

>>23373917
Magic can’t be real, to be real, when it’s different for everyone. It’s a name you plaster on to something .

>>23374078
>>23374805

>>23357013
>how come this book isn't a videogame???
a mystery for the ages, brando.

>>23367788
Good, informative post.

so we agree then? sanderson won.

>>23368156
She was confused Frodo called the super natural powers of Wizards Elves and Orcs "Magic" and distinguished by labeling them "White Magic" and "Black Magic" Galadriel answers that he shouldn't call all of them the same word because the Witch-King's and Gandalf's and her own powers have different sources.

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>>23368009
>there is a very popular franchise out there about a boy wizard attending a magic school with power rankings and stuff and nobody questions that.

>>23376214
The elves don't like using the word.

>>23376226
How did they get away with ripping of 'arry Potter?

>>23357013
I know it's a very unpopular opinion but I truly believe Tolkien was a hack.

>>23376336
I truly believe that you're a faggot.

Bump

>>23376312
Update: Ended up binging the entire first season. What a banger!

>>23357773
This is the stuff I say when I’m a retarded pseud

>>23362097
>>23362114
The Church does not dogmatically teach these children go to hell. Instead it teaches we have reason to hope for their salvation. https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

>>23362199
Spotted the braindead protestant

>>23357013
Brando Sando is an absolute Mormon Gigachad who is the next literary Goliath. Stay mad, sweaties

It's not just about magic. I would even consider that writing as a whole should be "soft".

>logic within the world doesn't even have to be consistent
>story structure, and plot progression can all be soft and nonsensical too

Leave well-defined in-book laws and logic for detective-mystery genre only.

The rest can just do whatever they want.

isn't sanderson the best living fantasy author? i haven't read his stuff but it's likely to go down as the next tolkien, he surpasses middle earth tier in complexity and popularity.

i only read the kingkiller chronicle by rothfuss and that was better than anything tolkien ever wrote. and sanderson is a x10 of rothfuss right? the stormlight archive books are being studied in philosophy courses.

>>23380793
Hi, Sandy. Please don't talk to yourself in 3rd person.

>>23362199
>>23362097

This anon votes, btw.