For me, it's Nestor.
Was Paris the Rhaegar or Greek mythology?
>>23359274Why do Japs and Greeks drink their alcohol the same way?
Hector
>>23359274There's barely any 'character' to any of them.
>>233592741. Achilles2. Apollo3. Diomedes
>>23359274Ajax (and Ajax), I love the the small-giant dynamic as they help each other in sections of the story, Telamonian Ajax in particular pretty much carries the achaeons while the tide was against them after everyone else was wounded in some way or anotheralso>was the one who actually struck hector into a daze after zeus was tricked by hera>his huge fucking tower shield blocking every arrow and onslaught as his company attempts to drag away patroclus' corpseYeah, I'm thinking he's based.
>>23359573Nestor was the original “old guy past his prime who agrees to go along with the plan with his old gang for one last war.” Sorta like a heist movie character but in Greece.
>>23359274Hector. All the Greeks came across as overly proud, warmongering cunts. The Trojans seemed like genuienly decent people, bar Paris.
None. I don't respect retards who fight over whores.
ME IDENTIFICO CON «HEKTOR».
>>23359274Thersites, the only guy who talks any sense at all in the entire book.
>>23360511the ultimate lesson of the Iliad is that it doesn't matter if you're right if also ugly and annoying.
>>23360511One could read it from a modern, Marxian angle that the entire story of Troy is an example of how monarchy is an inherently fragile system when the monarchs are all pompous and the war itself came about over their opposing claims to Helen, representing Troy’s fertile planes.Thersites may have been correct about the monarchial system and about the rulers who were abusing their power but Homer is giving you an ancient defense of the system from antiquity - it doesn’t matter how pompous the kings are when they are still the ones in charge. The system permits Agamemnon to steal Briseis and it is perfectly within his realm to do so. The Greeks would have realized this when hearing the poem recited. Thersites is seemingly correct but the flaws within the system are only a weakness to it.
>>23360534>ugly and annoyingAdd to this, poor and you are correct.
Hector is one of the best characters in all of literature. Ajax/Aias is cool too.
Ajax, I love how both in the Iliad and Odyssey Homer doesn't fail to remember the audience how only Achilles was prettier and stronger
>>23359274is that the sword from fate zero
>>23360546One could read any number of things from a "Marxian" angle. But one would be wrong in doing so, making your comment superfluous. Still, you are contrasting (stupid, mistaken, honor-based) ancient and (correct, rational, why should I care about that bitch) modern sensibilities, which is the real point. This guy >>23360471 for example, has genuine understanding. But the real reason why Odysseus checks Thersites is because talking out of turn and if we we go home in the fast trim ships then we don't have our movie. Conveniently, the character's author makes him out to be quite ugly, a Quasimodo type.>>23360554The one scene thus far where Hector seems human/admirable is when he's back on Troy's walls with the wife and baby, and the baby is scared of daddy in the scary mask and the couple laugh with each other. But then I'm only part way through and haven't finished the thing yet. It's honestly so dull that I've completely stalled out on it over the last few weeks. I think the last bit I read was Hera seducing Zeus, thus and buying time. Honestly I was surprised that Zeus fell for it, he knows what a calculating wench his sister is. At any rate it's a dull book, something to be forced through only because of its unavoidable meme status. Like the bible in this regard.
Agamemnon did nothing wrong. He had every right to take Briseis away.
>>23359274For me, it's Diomedes.
>>23359274Easily Hector. He is without doubt the most complex and interesting character Homer ever wrote. >>23360749Fuck that bitch. Hes OP as fuck and only because Athena turbo simped for him. The only cool Greeks were big Ajax and Odysseus. The rest were just greedy and annoying fags
>>23360805>The rest were just greedy and annoying fagsExcept Diomedes, of course.
>>23360813Diomedes was the worst of them. Literally made invincible by Athena and still ran like a broken buck from Hector. He deserved so much more than an arrow to the foot from that fop Paris
>>23360819Didn't he wound Ares and sent him crying back home like a baby? I haven't read the Illiad in like 15 years.
>>23360833They're all a bunch of boring fungible guys so it is quite easy to lose track of who's doing what from moment to moment. So much so, that I can't even understand the above dislike of Diomedes relative to Hector. They both get (rhyming) god-tier power-ups and Hector overplays his hand a bit when they charge the Argive shoreline trench.
>>23360833It was Aphrodite he wounded. She was trying to protect a Trojan warrior whose leg Diomedes crushed with a boulder he heaved with his OP as fuck Athena strength
>>23360851>fungible
>>23360575Then why not Achilles?
>>23359274Which are the straight ones and which are the fags? I think they're all fags except for Hector and Paris.
>>23360617>It's honestly so dullI felt the same initially, but it does gather momentum the more you stick with it. The first few chapters are the most unforgiving. There are a string of amazing moments that make it all worthwhile. I think it partially hinges on which translation you're reading.
Hector, there's a reason he was one of the nine worthies. If everybody tried to emulate him the world would be a better place
>>23361480Paris is better.
>>23360892Yeah she asked for it, women don't belong on the battlefield.
>>23360731No he didn't, Achilles claimed that piece of ass himself as his own spoils. Agamemnon acts like a spoilt brat, which is ironic because up until that point it's Achhille's who's the whiney brat. Then Agamemnon had to go with his tail between his legs when he realised he couldn't win the war without the man who he disgraced in front of the whole Greek army. The Greeks were actually some of the worst people in the whole story. Even the gods showed more decency than all of them.
>>23361506They're kind of like the Chinese.
>>23360617But you could legitimately make a point from Marxian analysis that the Iliad is unintentionally about the flaws of the monarchy system even if that isn’t what Homer the poet is attempting to have you take away. That is what my comment on Thersites is about.
>>23359302They wuz really chinese niggga
>>233592741. Hector2. Hector3. Hector4. The river god who tossed that bitch Achilles around like a ragdoll5. Hector
>>23362733That would be Scamander. His name is ScamanderThere is actually a relatively humorous joke from Socrates in Cratylus where he quotes the Iliad and says “Homer says the men call this river deity Scamander so clearly that means women must have a different name for him.” That was actually decently amusing and the interlocutor rolls with it.
Diomedes. Been a while since I've read it but doesn't he fight with Ares himself at one point? That's badass.
>>23363154>gets wounded by diomedes with athena driving his spear>teleports back to olympus to whine to zeus about how a mortal hurt him>zeus just laughs and calls him a bitchAres was cucked for most of the book, it's great.
>>23359274Science did pic rel; though a bit part, nonetheless the causus belli and therefore my fave: No Helen, no feats of arms, no city sacked, no Homer, no Plato bitching, no Roman mythical history, no Virgil, no West..On your knees, boys
Diomedes. Also, the most complete warrior after Achiles.
>>23363470she's cute, but i dunno if i'd spend nine years trying to sack Troy for her.
>>23360456Hey, Paris isn't THAT bad. He was pulling his weight in the second half of the battle.
>>23363564Agreed, but if tops relative to what was then available, who knows what any (of us) would have done, especially given that the occupational options back then (for a non-pleb) were pretty much farm, fish, or fight.
>>23363470Helen was blonde
>>23363284>Gets gutted>screams with the force of ten thousand men>DAD DAD LOOK WHAT ATHENA DID>"Aries... you are my least favorite child."
>>23360456>>23363570Paris is the goat.
>>23363589war definitely seems like the worst option compared to farming and fishing.
Paris. The scene in book 3 where he goes back to the chamber after Menelaos rekt him and fucks Helen is super hot.
>>23363824Stole his wife, inadvertently killed his faggot brother Hector, killed Achilles, destroyed Troy, founded Rome.
>>23362006You cannot legitimately make any sort of point about anything, at all, from a "Marxian analysis". Not even in principle. It isn't necessary to invoke him to make the banal and obvious observation that elites can be dicks.
>>23363599Hey, man-- you're going to take that one up with 'science'I'm just taking what they're giving
>>23363805Well, yeah, but I imagine after awhile it could get a little boring
That one lad called Dolon. He's literally the only character who is specifically described as ugly and dysgenic while everyone else is some heroic gigachad. He gets given a mission, fails and gets tortured to death. F.
>>23363570>>23363793Paris is a great character, I meant he wasn't as honourable as the other Trojans.
>>23363992Sounds like a big retard, no wonder he was ugly.
>>23363599Wrong. She’s traditionally depicted as red haired in medieval artwork.
>>23359274Teucros because I prefer the archer class and melee is fucked with all the gods just randomly intervening and slapping people around.>>23363599I don't remember her hair color being mentioned anywhere in the Iliad, hot women just have "beautiful locks" usually. The only things mentioned as blond are Achilles, Menelaus, a river and a horse. Also the sea is wine colored, as are some people's eyes.
>>23363992I wonder how they tortured him... do you think he was stripped naked
>>23365062Menelaus is given red hair in both Lattimore and Fagles’ translations.
>>23363570He had a pretty good arc desu. Went from getting utterly buck broken by menelus to sharpshooting big time with his bow, even if a lot of his most notable shots were hitmarkers
>>23366433He is also credited with killing Achilleus even though that’s not in the Iliad proper.
>>23361413Achilles comes off as too god-like and him having a goddess(in fact, two) basically do his bidding kinda makes him less impressive than Ajax, I like the simple, raw character of the latter as bulwark of the army, nearly killing Hektor, saving the ships, being instrumental in recovering the body of Patroklos, etc..,, all without a god explicitly on his side
>>23360511Of course the dysgenic modern surplus human will say this.>>23360617Literal woman.
I’m on chapter/book 19, so almost done…So far my list in no particular order would be:• Diomedes - resembles a “traditional main hero” we are accustomed to with modern storytelling• Menelaus - pretty similar to Diomedes although the whole war is about his wife so it makes sense for him to be fierce and menacing. He leads his men well, and exhibits many characteristics of a great leader • Ajax the Greater, Ajax the Lesser, Patroclus, Odysseus - Men of great honor and loyalty. Homer really emphasizes aspects, i.e. Ajax is fierce and large, Odysseus is wise, Patroclus is loyal• Nestor - the original “wise old man” trope. I like that Homer goes out of his way to explain how he was once a young man fierce in warfare, but is now an old king who can only offer his mind• Glaucus - probably the only one on the Trojan side who I admire. He’s not the “foil” to someone like Diomedes by any means, but he’s certainly the “Ilian Noble Warrior”• Meriones & Idomeneus - side characters by all accounts, but sprinkled throughout the whole book. Quick to volunteer at any call-to-arms, always at the front lines of fierce battle. These two have a very “Merry and Pippin”-esque side story in book 13 that made me smile.• Homer - the narrator himself! The similes are interesting and shed light onto the life of a Greek in the 8th century BC. Also his little quips make me audibly lol when I read. For example, when Homer says something like “It was brave to try. But they were foolish!”
>>23359274If your favorite character isn't either Diomedes or Hector, you're a certified retard.
>>23366892(me)Alright I have to add Hector I think. I’m reluctant to (I kind of see him as the main ‘villain’) but he did chew out Paris so he obviously has sense. Yet he honorably defends his homeland so you cannot fault him for that. And he rallies his men no matter the circumstance, so he gets recognition for being a great leader. Oh and add on the fact that the Achaeans are a much more unified army contrasted with that of Hector’s; his Trojan allies don’t even speak the same language, yet he still manages them efficiently.Telemann Ajax hefted a giant ass rock and sent Hector spinning like a top, almost killing him. He deserved that shit hahah.
>>23366892>Odysseus>great honor and loyalty
Zeus, the mighty god himself
>>23359274I only know Achilles was an asshole, what a dick.I'm reading The Aeneid right now and unsurprisingly Achilles' son is also a huge dick.Diomedes was the only Greek guy worthy of respect, the rest were a bunch of bandits.
>>23367974unless I’m missing something, then yes he is. I haven’t read The Odyssey (yet), if that’s what you’re referring to?
>>23368393Depends on what you mean by honor. He was the guy who killed a bunch of helpless warriors while they were sleeping and came up with the idea of the horse to deceive the Troyans and get into the city.He also killed his servants when he got back because they weren't sad enough that he hadn't returned yet but that's a different story.
>>23368454>He was the guy who killed a bunch of helpless warriors while they were sleepingI thought that was Diomedes and Telemonian Ajax? Maybe Odysseus was with them; I should have annotated my book in hindsight.>and came up with the idea of the horse to deceive the Troyans and get into the city.Oh. Lol. I haven’t gotten there yet. I plan on finishing the book either today or tomorrow.>He also killed his servants when he got back because they weren't sad enoughDamn.Yeah I suppose I meant “honor” very vaguely. In that he is simply a great / well-respected man who risks his life for the Greek cause. But I see your point of view
>>23368454Forgot the Trojan he and Diomedes intercepted on their nightly raid. Odysseus promised to spare his life in exchange for information and then he just let Diomedes slit his throat.
>>23363470the the dyke jewess from tlou2 you lying shit.
>>23368567She's Italian.
>>23364629Honor is synonymous with stupidity.
>>23368524Odysseus is not known for being honest.
>>23359274Nestor was Homer's favourite butt (after Agamemnon). Nestor consistently gives bad advice which Agamemnon always adopts (whereas Polydamas consistently gives good advice, which Hector always rejects)
>>23359274Achilles’ Shield.This damn inanimate piece of metal is more fleshed-out than any “character” Homer gave a shit to describe
>>23369182>is emblazoned with the images of a town in peace and a town in a state of war representing the duality of man Whoa….
>>233592741)Hector2)Diomedes3)Odysseus
>>23360546>One could read it from a modern, Marxian angle that the entire story of Troy is an example of how monarchy is an inherently fragile system when the monarchs are all pompous and the war itself came about over their opposing claims to Helen, representing Troy’s fertile planes.Genuinely curious but how on earth does the Iliad represent monarchy as a "fragile" system. Hell, what even counts in your subjective eyes as a "fragile" system and what makes the monarchy more fragile than, say, modern mass democracy?
>>23368624I disagree. Especially in regards to the norse sagas, where honor generally is about taking the path of most resistance. It can even work as a determination to fight against evil or bad characters and this works best in the sagas which, unlike the Iliad, are written in a very neutral tone, (except when it comes to saint Olaf, who is always the greatest human to have ever lived and who will ever live, at least according to some of the saga authors). Plus, the poems are better imo. Sure, you might think it's stupid, but the reasons you can give are not any more or less logical as they all have to work on some presupposition that you assume to be correct. You'd have to define stupidity first before you call something stupid.
>>23369478Capitalism= the workers are alienated from their own labor by the bourgeoisMonarchy= the soldiers are alienated from their own labor by the monarchs The monarchs are all at each other’s throats though none of them did anything not under their jurisdiction.
>>23359274That one soldier whose name i forgot, he is one of the few "unimportant characters" in the book, if you guys remember please tell me.
>>23369519Honor in the true sense of the word is a societal control mechanism. Those who follow it are idiots.
>>23369519PRINCE HENRYWhy, thou owest God a death.FALSTAFF‘Tis not due yet; I would be loath to pay him beforehis day. What need I be so forward with him thatcalls not on me? Well, ’tis no matter; honour pricksme on. Yea, but how if honour prick me off when Icome on? how then? Can honour set to a leg? no: oran arm? no: or take away the grief of a wound? no.Honour hath no skill in surgery, then? no. What ishonour? a word. What is in that word honour? whatis that honour? air. A trim reckoning! Who hath it?he that died o’ Wednesday. Doth he feel it? no.Doth he hear it? no. ‘Tis insensible, then. Yea,to the dead. But will it not live with the living?no. Why? detraction will not suffer it. ThereforeI’ll none of it. Honour is a mere scutcheon: and soends my catechism.
>>23370251>Honour is a mere scutcheon: and so ends my catechism.Shield against shame.
>>23370251>>23370269Plato says that the honor culture is the timocracy, then developing into the oligarchy in which honor lies with money alone, then democracy in which honor disappears completely, then tyranny in which order is regained through brute force.
>>23370269from Falstaff?-- a character who never viewed his shortcomings as sources of shame or embarrassment, but sources of empathy
>>23370348no doubt from the Five Ages of Man myth.
>>23370367I don't think so, it comes rather from the mystery schools. Because Greece had so many different islands with differing regimes the traveller could observe the stages of the political systems. Sparta is the timocracy, Athens the debauched democracy etc. The islands with tyrants were always hated the most and I suppose Plato observed or was told so by the mystery school elders that tyrannies always developed out of democracies.
>>23370365But he's fat. Compulsive eating comes from buried shame - all addiction actually.
>>23370489Because it’s affirmative, isn’t it? I think gluttony must be a good deal less deadly than some of the other sins - at least it celebrates some of the good things of life.
>>23370547What is he ashamed of though? That's the question.
>>23370710common humanity precludes mention of any psychological reading into Shakespeare.
>>23370724Falstaff is beloved precisely because of how pathetic he is. He is harmless - his psychology primitive and unsophisticated. A child.
>>23370761So one would presume that he's ashamed of being so weak and thus why he eats himself to death. He's afraid of death and yet eats his way there - the ultimate irony and self-sabotage.
>>23370761Not quite. He's the only great character in dramatic literature who is also good (Auden likened him to a Christ figure). He's a Christmas tree decorated with vices. The tree itself is total innocence and love.Shakespeare must have understood Falstaff better than any other characters he created, because Falstaff was obliged to sing for his supper - that was a character filled with imperfections, physical and moral defects (but the essential part of his nature is his goodness).
>>23370782he died of a broken heart
>>23370825>The tree itself is total innocence and love.Like a child.>Shakespeare must have understood Falstaff better than any other characters he created, because Falstaff was obliged to sing for his supper - that was a character filled with imperfections, physical and moral defects (but the essential part of his nature is his goodness).It's arrested development - not goodness. You are transvaluating the word.>>23370826I.e. heart attack from his obesity.
>>23370935Innocent is what Falstaff is. further, you could say he is Merrie England. He is a kind of refugee from that world. And he has to live by his wits; it’s a rough modern world that he’s living in. Shakespeare was greatly preoccupied with the loss of innocence. There has always been an older England, which was sweeter, purer, where the weather was always springtime and the daffodils blew in the warm breezes. You feel a nostalgia for it in Chaucer, and you feel it all through Shakespeare. >I.e. heart attack from betrayal of friendship
>>23370973It never existed. The chwistmas twee is as fake as santi claus.
>>23360456>"NOOO DEIPHOBUS HELP M-ACK!"
>>23368524He got his head chopped off all a sudden while he was still blabbering
>>23371061but exists in the heart of all English poetry.
Menelaus comes pretty well out of the story. Conscious that this bloody war is being fought to avenge the wrong which Paris did him, he shows common sense and dignity, keeping up a steady average of kills in various battles, even on one occasion decided to spare a suppliant prince (who Agamemnon officiously murders).
>>23360456Hektor's pride is kinda what killed him at least as far as his own arc and frame of reference, ignoring the signs, thinking the gods were going to permanently be on his side
>>23359274for me it's Orestes>has mommy issues>vindicated by Athena>reason behind Western law systems>inspired Dune
>>23359274Big fan of the ajaxs.
>>23371395https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER3AEZvWES0
>>23371262You got the wrong message from that bit. Menelaus sparing the prince is supposed to be like he is forgetting why they are even there and Agamemnon has to kick him back into gear and say “look. They wouldn’t spare us so we shouldn’t spare then when push comes to shove.” That bit is showing Menelaus as a sentimental type same as he is a lover who fought at Troy for his dignity and woman.
I want Nestor to fall down a flight of stairs and spend three days dying in his own shit and piss. He’s just a tedious and self-centered old man who insists on being listened to. Every time he wags his finger at the other Achaeans, I wanna fuck his geriatric mouth shut and cut his throat just before I cum.The answer is Hector
>>23372062For me, it’s the bit where he cajoles Achilles with presents from Agamemnon but he leaves out the part about Agamemnon using this as a backhanded way to submit to him.
>>23372017Just another example of Agamemnon bustling up and (almost always) doing the wrong thing. Like in Book 2, when Agamemnon calls an assembly and tests the troops' morale by offering to abandon the siege. But he so over-acts his defeatist part that he convinces even himself, and the war-weary soldiers rush cheering down to the ships -- Athene is obliged to intervene.
>>23370825>>23370973>>23372152Lovely Falstaff posts, they have brightened my day considerably. And they seem to carry an insight that only another rotund and bibulous fellow could summon, hmm... but anyway, the figure of Falstaff dovetails very nicely with my recent reading, so my thoughts are in the right place to appreciate him. I truly hardly ever cry reading something, it's just not immediate enough as a medium I guess - but Falstaff's "death" at the end of part one drew a couple tears from me.
>>23372458
>>23372506>wary Ah, poor lad of one-and-twenty
>>23372569tis true tis true
Diomedes is pretty cool since he straight up attacked an Olympian god and pretty much got away with it, while Ajax and Odysseus got screwed over for just talking shit to them
Just finished the Iliad; I’m reading Virgil’s Aeneid next. Is it really just larp fanfic or does it stand out as its own distinct piece of art?
