I saw stoicism on reddit and thought it is gay but real stoicism is real interesting> After all, if you consider something that you really know, youshould find this a fairly plausible claim. I know that four is an evennumber; put me on the rack and see if you can get me to say something Different. Or rather, see if you can get me to believe somethingDifferent, for as to getting me to say things, that is an easy matter:threaten me with torture and I’ll tell you it’s odd, or purple, oranything else you want me to tell you—you can easily get me tobelieve that torture is bad. But can you as easily change my beliefthat four is even? Regardless of what I say, will I really stop believingthat four is an even number, that I can take any four things anddivide them into two groups of two, without anything left over?Torture or not, I don’t see how I could ever think of four, think ofdividing it into two even groups, and think that there will still beone left over. It’s not that I am brave or heroic, it’s just that this is something I know. And if I knew in the same way that only virtue isgood—if it was just dead obvious to me, as four’s evenness is—then notorture could make that fact look Different, either.
>>23542556No it's cringe. Stoics think you can force your brain to think different thoughts and that this will change how you feel and behave. That isn't how it works.
>>23542580Did you read the post? It's not about forcing it with your heroism and bravery its just about knowing
>>23542590Did you read my post? The whole point is that merely knowing or forcing yourself to think a certain thing is not enough. This was one of Socrates' sillier ideas that got spammed by the cynics and then plagiarized by Chrysippus. As I said, knowing/thoughts aren't enough in fact they hardly matter at all. You can know what is right and still do the wrong thing, I wonder how?
>>23542580I'm not a Stoic.But could you explain what you mean by >Stoics think you can force your brain to think different thoughts Because I feel you might be misinterpreting them.>and that this will change how you feel and behave.???If you have different values, this does change how you feel and behave.
>>23542630> You can know what is right and still do the wrong thingYou can't. you always will what you will. If you think ciggs are unhealthy but go and smoked then you will it. You think that you should smoke them because you think that pleasure is good. If you knew that pleasure is indifferent you wouldn't do it.
>>23542556>I know that good is goodWow, deep.
>>23542638Thoughts and feelings are two different things. You can think the right thing but still be overwhelmed by your feelings. Being virtuous isn't about learning to think differently, it's building better habits in the same way as you use exercise to strengthen your body. Stoics make it sound like if you just think the right things ("I can only control my reactions..." etc) you will become virtuous. That might work okay sitting behind a desk looking at reddit but when you're really tested you will fail, your thoughts will not help you. This is the big difference between Platonic/Aristotelian ethics and Stoic ethics and the former are definitely correct as is clear from induction. Living in accordance with reason is about more than merely thinking the right thoughts.
>>23542556this nigga has to be like "I'm chill bro life is what it is" philosopy to cope with his baby dick LMAO
>>23542652You don't understand that the human mind isn't one unified system, there are multiple competing parts. This is why Stoic ethics was barely even preserved, it is so manifestly inferior to Platonic ethics.
>>23542660I think you are misunderstanding the Stoics. They did have an ascetic component. They opposed acting hedonisticaly in parts because this will harm your judgements.
>>23542580>you can force your brain to think different thoughtsIt's not "forcing" anything. When you go to school and learn shit, you will think differently as you grow and experience life. Your belief that human consciousness is immutable has no valid justification.
>>23542684You don't understand what I'm saying which is baffling because it isn't complicated. I'm saying Stoic psychology is broken and Stoic ethics with its emphasis on right thoughts/knowledge is also broken. Maybe you should stay on reddit I think this site is too advanced for you.
>>23542580>Stoics think you can force your brain to think different thoughts and that this will change how you feel and behaveliterally can tho
>>23542936Typical redditor who thinks he's a stoic sage because he walks around repeating "it's out of my control" to himself over and over like a mental patient.
>>23542720>I'm sayingBut what you're saying was objectively wrong. If you want to get your point across, it's usually prudent to not say things that are objectively false.
>>23542938no, on the contrary. it's like you are completely unfamiliar with what it is.>i lost my jobexternal situation, it has happened.>fuck man what total bullshit i dont deserve this im sad what am i going to do oh man oh fuckemotional reaction to external situation. you can't control the situation, you can control your reaction to it.think the jocko meme. unironically.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTMDpizis8it's quite literally about paying no mind to things that are out of your control and optimising those things you can.
>>23542580It's called CBT (Cock & Ball Torture)
>>23542556The metaphysics of stoicism are more interesting than the moral theories anyways.
>>23542580>this will change how you feel and behave. That isn't how it works.That's literally the basis for cbt and other modern therapies.Like most of the philosophers here, you collect knowledge, but refuse to put in the work.
Doesn't modern psychology say that you have to express your emotions? Won't stoicism lead to unhealthy repression?
>>23543804Yes reddit stoicism try to adjust stoicism to modern gay theories. But that doesn't exist in real stoicism. Also expressing emotions is not forbidden ( for example some stoics suggest that you should act sad if your friend experienced some tragedy ). Thing that stoics explain is that you don't have to look at emotions as they are something bad or good. Only your judgement of the things you experience can be bad or good.
>>23542938>>23542985>>23543804>>23543835I think it's Ortega y Gasset who said the biggest problem he had with stoicism is that it's the kind of life you imagine belonging to a sickly calculative type. You know, "ah, okay, I have to go get cough medicine because I have the flu, ugh, okay, well, if I take this way, it's the least amount of distance possible, just persevere, conserve your energy." It's the mindset of an animal that has to judiciously expend every calorie it obtains, be as sharp as its jutting ribs.Life in the flourishing state naturally has tons of wasted energy. You ever watch animals just randomly sperg out, act like retards? You could say "well, what looks like wasted energy is actually Darwinian rational (read: conducive to caloric intake or mating ability) because of some autistic adaptation that I conjectured blah blah blah". But healthy creatures have energy to waste, and they waste it I imagine because it keeps the muscles healthy and the spirit high. If an animal acted like a stoic, you'd probably assume something's wrong with it. You steal it's favorite toy, and it just regards you blankly. Yeah, it's probably wounded or starving. Stoicism is a kind of conservation strategy of being the least effected possible by life with the most social efficiency. Instead of getting angry at your idiot coworker, you say to yourself calmly they're a moron and you're able to focus on a task. It's great for rational production, and an esteemed quality in the servile (and as Nietzsche says, even masters must be able to command themselves and submit to their commands). But after I read that, I was struck by it, how there's a strange avarice the Stoic possesses. Something to think about.
>>23543869Expenditure of power is unavoidable. Will you expend your power on pleasurable things or on things that you deem rational?
>>23542556mmm that little fembody, imagine plappin those thighs from the bakk
>>23542580anon gaslighting yourself works, kinda
>>23542675>>23544055Youre going to hell
>>23542675Life really is what it is.
>>23542675With your mother dies of cancer, your sibling dies in a car crash, or you yourself succumb to a similar illness or tragic accident. Life really is what it is, even if you had testicular cancer which lead to the amputation of your testes, cat or dog, male or female, life really is what it is. You are going straight to hell together with>>23544055You will not be able to bear the inferno.
>>23542938>"it's out of my control"It really is out of your control bud. Your death is a certainty, it is incontrovertible, good luck because your soul is going to cry out as youre dragged to the lower regions of the cosmos.
>>23542580It is the case that through the mere power of ones will, one can eliminate his individual identity completely and totally. You can also completely cease in all thoughts and experience the permanent dissolution of the mind, I just wonder how vulgar peasants like you react to a drug trip (not that you could really attain states of peace apart from all the hallucinatory garbage youve been enslaved by).
>>23543869All your chatter is pure garbage. Your death is inevitable and incontrovertible if you do not know what you really are you are just like a child playing in the sand. Nietzsche or no Nietzsche this "ism" or that "ism" the wave is going totally devastate the worthless castle you have been building. Even on an physical level youre nothing but a rotting corpse, that is indisputable, time is passing your body is expiring, distract yourself and scatter yourself elsewhere all you want. People who are scattered and distracted elsewhere arent entitled to any sort of authority on the subject, whatever minute deformed vision that corresponds to, you are nothing.
>>23542590> It's not about forcing it with your heroism and bravery its just about knowingThats not true because forcing with heroism/bravery, ie. Dying in a battle can be a means to spiritual realization, it is well known, these are called boundary situations by modern psychology, it can also just as much lead to something inferior, think of all the Americans who come back from war with a whole range of maladies and psychological problems. The way one Knows and the way one Wills are not to separate things, in the hindu tradition the iccha-shakti is converted to the jnana-shakti which leads to knowledge of being.In other words want has to strongly "want" to know, and putting yourself in a "boundary situation" if youre not already a soulless husk (fueled by amphetamines and marijuana, which is common for modern criminals and even "soldiers") you can put yourself in an extremely depersonalizing situation which leads to the dissolution of your identity as it is, which only invigorates a thirsting for knowledge of what is going on, this can easily lead to the attainment stoics and yogis describe. However given the filth of the modern person it can just as easily lead to a greater intensification of the ego and a corresponding debasement by increasing desires a hundredfold (how does a weak man who has gone through something traumatic cope? he becomes obsessed with women, sex, drugs, money etc.) Mental and intellectual disintegration can have a double effect it can liberate but also lead to only a more intense bondage.
>>23543804>Won't stoicism lead to unhealthy repression?No this is a common misconception, every stoic literally "descends" into hell, and unleashes all his latent energy (you can talk about it in terms of psychological and pseudo-mystical jargon, he "integrates the shadow" his kundalini is awakened reaches the crown of his head or whatever you want, its really irrelevant) It leads to the knowledge of the Innate divinity in the man, to knowledge of the daimon and to the alignment or equilibrium between the individual and the Divine. There is really nothing more "liberative" What is repressive is the ordinary debased conditioning of the individual identity as he goes about his mundane activities, reading a book here or there, thinking he has acquired something resembling knowledge. The stoic absolutely unleashes the beast and harmonizes all the levels of his being or he ends up deranged and in a mental asylum. What is "repressive" is the limited modern frameworks of knowledge, even the body is limited, have you never considered it stupid and limited that one has to shit and eat food, do you only think that you are aware of all the stuff that would come out of your stomach if it were sliced open? Immortality is not some repressive pipe-dream, mortality in its hallucinatory fanaticism is.
>>23543869>I think it's Ortega y Gasset who said the biggest problem he had with stoicism is that it's the kind of life you imagine belonging to a sickly calculative type. You know, "ah, okay, I have to go get cough medicine because I have the flu, ugh, okay, well, if I take this wayOrtega Gasset doesnt know anything about stoicism, at least not enough to comment on it. The stoic is nourished by the universe itself, if he had a flu he would absolutely refuse cough medicine and by the power of his mere will it would be overcome >It's the mindset of an animal that has to judiciously expend every calorie it obtains, be as sharp as its jutting ribs.The truly animal like thing is the philosopher "thinking" Ortega is too busy with mere rationalism and abstraction, he clearly has a very limited spirit. >Life in the flourishing state naturally has tons of wasted energy.Thats farcical Life in its flourishing state is energy itself, and as has already been said above, the stoic is nourished by the universe itself, by himself, thats what autonomy is, like the ouroboric serpent>You could say "well, what looks like wasted energy is actually Darwinian rational (read: conducive to caloric intake or mating ability) because of some autistic adaptation that I conjectured blah blah blah". Both the autistic adapation and what is being responded to is mere rational bullshit and conjecture. Youre are out of your depth.
>>23544192>The stoic is nourished by the universe itself, if he had a flu he would absolutely refuse cough medicine and by the power of his mere will it would be overcomeand if he died as a result, after all external factors cant be dismissed, he would similarly overcome death by the power of his mere will, after all what is death to one who is already dead? Stoics are life itself, only the sort of life which required a death to the former state of life which was really death.
>>23542679everyone knows this, it's not possible to not know this. Stoicism predicates a level of impulse control and reflexive transparency that is only natural to a few and is hard work for most.It's obvious to anyone that a lean and conditioned body serves a person better in all ways, but in your direction of it would be that because many are fat slobs then it's not true that being physically resilient means you are physically resilient. No one is born principled, you must accept a collection of them as true and mould yourself above the default state
>>23543804>Doesn't modern psychology say that you have to express your emotions?I think this is more of a Hollywood meme than reality.And the "Gold standard" in psychological therapies is a watered down version of Stoicism.
>>23542679No the mind is actually one, it definitely isnt a "system" by any stretch, it seems you were completely filtered by platonism itself there is one "internal organ" and different modes, for example a person can say I want, I judge, etc. In other words there are just different modulations of a single base, namely the mind, which is one thing. And it is not some idea, something seperate, as if it were external, it is ourself first person. So it is really stupid to talk about "the mind" etc. etc. all that is really referred to is ourself, we may have aspects, such as wanting, judging, thinking, sensing, etc. but to call them all competing is truly retarded and betrays a fundamental disorder present in what is only your psyche.>Stoicism predicates a level of impulse control and reflexive transparency that is only natural to a few and is hard work for most.Stoicism doesnt lie in any sort of predication, It's obvious to anyone that a lean and conditioned body serves a person better in all ways thats true and fine, and accurate also, however it has nothing to do with stoicism, its like talking about a car or vehicle and claiming it has some sort of special bond to the driver, which is not true, the driver can survive a car crash and get a new car, or he can leave the car hes in, in other words its confusing the possessed for the possessor, ethics is made up nonsense, stoicism is merely about knowing the possessor which is independent and autonomous, why entertain some other illusion and call it stoicism? stoicism is also just a thing and is not to be confused for the possesor itself, the possesed is something insufficient and misunderstood especially by modern interpreters.>>23544206>everyone knows thisThats not true.
>>23544238>competingwhile its true that this disorder can be prevalent especially amongst the diversity of pseudo-philosophers who come up with apparently distinct philosophical systems (the only reason this is the case, is because their will is deeper and hidden, or it is that what they want is steering what they judge, philosophy is an exercise in judgment) but this sort of splitting is not inherent in mind, it is an unnatural splitting an disorder brought about by attachment to transient things.
