I've been reading this as my introduction to Jung and realized that it seems a lot of his ideas I was already familiar with.I didn't realize just how influential he was on the pop-cultural understanding of psychology and therapy.Is there anywhere deeper I can go with him or will the rest of his works be the same?
He is a hack, just drop his shit and go read the Bible instead.
>>23551198I do plan on reading the bible soon. That's gonna be a huge undertaking though.Still need to figure out which version to get into.
>>23551212Shut up and read KJV proverbs
>>23551193He is a hack, just drop his shit and go read Freud instead.
>>23551193Next read Memories, Dreams, Reflections, then his Collected Works.
>>23551212None of them are perfect, but RSV/ESV in my experience are the best for being literal and also having a good feel for English style. KJV just isn't intelligible to a modern reader; for example, there are even passages in the KJV where the phrase "so that" has the archaic meaning of "if only"—literally giving the opposite of the intended meaning to modern readers. RSV/ESV are updates of the KJV, so they're a bit like what the KJV would be if it were created in the 20th/21st Centuries.Other modern translations tend either to sacrifice literalness, or style or readability.
okay but he is a hack though
>>23551495Compared to the biblical authors everyone is. We aren't joking. We read plato Aristotle heraclitus Seneca Hegel kant hume leibniz locke Aquinas kneechan whatever the fuck man we read it all. The bible wins and it's not even close
Man and his symbols reads a bit dated now. You can follow a few paths next: books about shamanism, or rites of passage// books about Jungian analysis, dream interpretation, self actualisation// or even biographies of Jung himself.
>>23551221Freud is based but wait till you read Lacan
>>23551567What books would you recommend for dream analysis?
>>23551198midwit
>>23551582Lacan is way out of my wavelength. All those diagrams
>>23551596Freud and Jung treat dream analysis differently. For Freud dreams had symbolic / coded "meaning". Jung sees them as either wish fulfillment or psychic "answers" to life dilemmas. Books? Maybe there is one that compares these approaches
>>23551198>don't read distilled lessons in psychology and introspection, instead sift through antiquated intra-jewish squabbling and waste time trying to find any philosophical value therein
>>23551632Freud tries to reduce things to the basic driving force which is always libido for him. Which means his analysis wouod be to guide someone who dreamt about walking down a street to notice a woman in the crowd, ask what that made him think about, keep pushing until he mentions his mom, then voila! Oedipal complex, you vant to fack ze mather, yes? This isn’t even much of a joke. Jung had multiple levels of dream analysis and didn’t think there was a singular driving force. Libido could be involved, but many other things as well. There’s the personal symbolic interpretation where the patient needs to do an inventory of the connections they have to an important or recurring dream symbol, but also the collective unconscious and archetypes across human cultures to draw from. A dream can have multiple layers of interpretation. I’m reading a summer course about exactly this. Course lit is mainly Jung’s works. Jungian psychology is still big in organizational psychology where it’s bullshitting about the composition of types according to Myers-Briggs. There’s an active niche for Jungians doing dream analysis too just like Freudians still exist and get clients. It does feel like the art of bullshitting though, half your work is selling the patient on this being real and relevant. Testable usefulness need not apply. But compared to Freudian analysis this seems so much richer a tool, without the narrow preconceived conclusions. There’s also something to the collective unconscious idea, I’m reading it more as the culmination of base instincts plus cultural baggage. In the hellenistic world they would have a certain set of myths and images recurring because it’s the world and stories retold. Most of western civ draws on the Bible myths, important later works play with those symbols, Dante, Milton, Shakespeare. Of course they would recur. The problem now is culture is so compartmentalized. What’s the common symbolic well, Marvel movies? Gen Alpha dreams of Skibidi Biden?
Atheists are really like hindus: the deepest insight they have into spirituality is thinking that consciousness has 3 fundamental states: awake, dreaming, deep sleep. And they cannot help themselves form viewing dreams as some gateway to some higher reality, while feeling superior to their equally moronic view creating the stupid dichotomy thatt cartesian rationality is the true gateway to some deep secret of the universe.It absolutely baffling that those morons deeply view has the most profound analysis of consciousness. LOL
>>23551916Good post
>>23551632>Jung sees them as either wish fulfillment or psychic "answers" to life dilemmas.Have you actually read Jung? Look at the Red Book. It's almost all dream/ fantasy analysis and it's not like what you are saying.
>>23551916>What’s the common symbolic well, Marvel movies?I'd say it's blockbuster filmmaking and tv as a whole.
>>23551198/Thread
>>23551951Jung didn’t have a single definition or vision of his psychology through his life. The Red Book wasn’t intended to be published, and is the least representative of his developed thoughts as it’s self analytic and the beginning years of his thinking on the subject. Why you didn’t know this while attempting a snide “haha but did you really read him” comment is presumably redditor disease.
>>23551632Lol have you even read any Jung? Why do people insist on "educating" others about topics they know nothing about?
>>23551632>Jung sees them as either wish fulfillmentHahaha lol, read a book retard.
>>23551212Bible in a year podcast with Fr. Mike Schmitz
>>23551632>wish fulfillment or psychic "answers" to life dilemmasOr to put it another way: Jung believed that dreams compensate for imbalances in our conscious personality, revealing repressed thoughts, emotions, and desires.
>>23552015That's irrelevant, he employs similar methodology in all his dream/ fantasy analysisSaying he was concerned with them in a practical sense is ridiculous. That is only when directly helping a patient
Bumping the thread before the Christfag chicanos slide it.
>>23551193As far as introductions go Jung himself endorsed this one. He also says in the foreword that he never arrived at a definitive theory, and that his positions over time are contradictory, which is why he appreciated someone systematizing it. So whenever someone says Jung thinks this or that remember that his views changed over time and he didn’t consider himself to have a singular coherent theory. Generally the ideas go from more absolute toward finding more exceptions and making them more malleable with age and trials.
>>23551212Just read KJV. Drop Jung ASAP and finish the Bible.
>>23553852Trump (first Latino President) is going to deport your fascist-communist Biden supporting anti-Christian ass back to Europe in 5 months.
>>23553882FR FR NO CAPE HERMANO
>>23551198>>23551216>>23551221>>23551469I don't read things written by Jews>>23551540>WE AREN'T JOKING ESE MANGGG DA BIBLE IS DA TRUE WORD OF YAHWEH N SHIEEEEEETdaring to suggest that the revolting Jew book could possibly be as sophisticated as any of the people you mentioned ought to be punished by instant torture to death
>>23553882KJV is he most cucked version of the bible. Jung provides 1000x times more wisdom than whatever stupid shit desert jews stole from Egypt.
>>23551632Oh yeah bro. Wish fulfillment and psychic answers are totally different from meaning.
>>23551198Fpbp
>>23551916Yeah but is there even a point in taking a CSN loan to listen to Åke’s ramblings? It’s obvious the course is designed to grant him vacation and so the grading will be half assed
>>23551193it's pretty sad how people claim Jung is pseudo-science despite the fact that everything he said is used by therapists to this day. at least the few good ones. If your therapist isn't trying to psychoanalyze you at all then literally the only thing they exist to do is prescribe drugs. Just thinking about how disgusting modern therapists are makes my blood boil. It used to be you had close friends and family to talk to about your issues, therapists were supposed to be a replacement for that but they don't just fail to replace them, no, therapists take pride in doing absolutely nothing a normal person would when listening to someone's problems. god they're disgusting.
>>23551916Freud is right to reduce the common man's experience to one driven by erotic force (and a lack of libidinal fulfillment is the most common source of neuroses around the world). If you don't see how the pleasure principle shaped this last century or how the people now in power abused it to shape current society and kill the spirit in real time right before our eyes you're admittedly very, very stupid. Or naive and young, when it's at least forgivable.Panem et circenses goes all the way back to the good old first empire.
>>23556325When I was reading this book there was a story he told about how one of his patients was only able to be healed after he had built a rapport with Jung over the course of 10 years.In that scenario I can see how the therapist takes on the role of someone close to you.
>>23556327>you're naive and young>says the weeb
>>23556471>Wow dude how dare you use this surrogate activity to regulate your mental state in a societal machine so fucked and so pushing of man's limits there's no going back now
>>23551567Rites of passage (as it ties into the Geertz and Turner stuff I read) or self actualization (for personal reasons) for me. Rec away!
>>23551193>There was something else that seemed to me significant at that first meeting. It had to do with things which I was able to think out and understand only after our friendship was over. There was no mistaking the fact that Freud was emotionally involved in his sexual theory to an extraordinary degree. When he spoke of it, his tone became urgent, almost anxious, and all signs of his normally critical and skeptical manner vanished. A strange, deeply moved expression came over his face, the cause of which I was at a loss to understand. I had a strong intuition that for him sexuality was a sort of numinosum. This was confirmed by a conversation which took place some three years later (in 1910), again in Vienna.>I can still recall vividly how Freud said to me, “My dear Jung, promise me never to abandon the sexual theory. That is the most essential thing of all. You see, we must make a dogma of it, an unshakable bulwark.” He said that to me with great emotion, in the tone of a father saying, “And promise me this one thing, my dear son: that you will go to church every Sunday.” In some astonishment I asked him, “A bulwark—against what?” To which he replied, “Against the black tide of mud”—and here he hesitated for a moment, then added—“of occultism.” First of all, it was the words “bulwark” and “dogma” that alarmed me; for a dogma, that is to say, an undisputable confession of faith, is set up only when the aim is to suppress doubts once and for all. But that no longer has anything to do with scientific judgment; only with a personal power drive.
>>23556904>This was the thing that struck at the heart of our friendship. I knew that I would never be able to accept such an attitude. What Freud seemed to mean by “occultism” was virtually everything that philosophy and religion, including the rising contemporary science of parapsychology, had learned about the psyche. To me the sexual theory was just as occult, that is to say, just as unproven an hypothesis, as many other speculative views. As I saw it, a scientific truth was a hypothesis which might be adequate for the moment but was not to be preserved as an article of faith for all time.>Although I did not properly understand it then, I had observed in Freud the eruption of unconscious religious factors. Evidently he wanted my aid in erecting a barrier against these threatening unconscious contents.>The impression this conversation made upon me added to my confusion; until then I had not considered sexuality as a precious and imperiled concept to which one must remain faithful. Sexuality evidently meant more to Freud than to other people. For him it was something to be religiously observed. In the face of such deep convictions one generally becomes shy and reticent. After a few stammering attempts on my part, the conversation soon came to an end.
>>23556909>I was bewildered and embarrassed. I had the feeling that I had caught a glimpse of a new, unknown country from which swarms of new ideas flew to meet me. One thing was clear: Freud, who had always made much of his irreligiosity, had now constructed a dogma; or rather, in the place of a jealous God whom he had lost, he had substituted another compelling image, that of sexuality. It was no less insistent, exacting, domineering, threatening, and morally ambivalent than the original one. Just as the psychically stronger agency is given “divine” or “daemonic” attributes, so the “sexual libido” took over the role of a deus absconditus, a hidden or concealed god. The advantage of this transformation for Freud was, apparently, that he was able to regard the new numinous principle as scientifically irreproachable and free from all religious taint. At bottom, however, the numinosity, that is, the psychological qualities of the two rationally incommensurable opposites—Yahweh and sexuality—remained the same. The name alone had changed, and with it, of course, the point of view: the lost god had now to be sought below, not above. But what difference does it make, ultimately, to the stronger agency if it is called now by one name and now by another? If psychology did not exist, but only concrete objects, the one would actually have been destroyed and replaced by the other. But in reality, that is to say, in psychological experience, there is not one whit the less of urgency, anxiety, compulsiveness, etc. The problem still remains: how to overcome or escape our anxiety, bad conscience, guilt, compulsion, unconsciousness, and instinctuality. If we cannot do this from the bright, idealistic side, then perhaps we shall have better luck by approaching the problem from the dark, biological side.
>>23556913>Like flames suddenly flaring up, these thoughts darted through my mind. Much later, when I reflected upon Freud’s character, they revealed their significance. There was one characteristic of his that preoccupied me above all: his bitterness. It had struck me at our first encounter, but it remained inexplicable to me until I was able to see it in connection with his attitude toward sexuality. Although, for Freud, sexuality was undoubtedly a numinosum, his terminology and theory seemed to define it exclusively as a biological function. It was only the emotionality with which he spoke of it that revealed the deeper elements reverberating within him. Basically, he wanted to teach—or so at least it seemed to me—that, regarded from within, sexuality included spirituality and had an intrinsic meaning. But his concretistic terminology was too narrow to express this idea. He gave me the impression that at bottom he was working against his own goal and against himself; and there is, after all, no harsher bitterness than that of a person who is his own worst enemy. In his own words, he felt himself menaced by a “black tide of mud”—he who more than anyone else had tried to let down his buckets into those black depths.>Freud never asked himself why he was compelled to talk continually of sex, why this idea had taken such possession of him. He remained unaware that his “monotony of interpretation” expressed a flight from himself, or from that other side of him which might perhaps be called mystical. So long as he refused to acknowledge that side, he could never be reconciled with himself. He was blind toward the paradox and ambiguity of the contents of the unconscious, and did not know that everything which arises out of the unconscious has a top and a bottom, an inside and an outside. When we speak of the outside—and that is what Freud did—we are considering only half of the whole, with the result that a countereffect arises out of the unconscious.
>>23554967any common translations that properly translate this? other than The Message of course
>>23556559Escapism is the opposite of regulation lel
>>23554886No one asked you, whigger.
>>23551193archetypes are his only significant finding, synchronicity can more less be dismissed even though I myself experience it a lot, many cases are missing the divine element, they are only stimulating to the mind because they appeal to our pattern seeking ways, then the spiritual reasoning for things puts his work in a grey area for me
>>23551193I have a question for Jungfags.Is Jung responsible for the absolute abomination that is modern astrology?Also what is the difference between his archetypes and Plato's ideas.
>>23551193To understand psychology, do more reading into anthropology + neurology. Socialization and manifestations of mental instinct/disorder can more or less explain most human behavior besides pure randomness.
>>23554886>daring to suggest that the revolting Jew book could possibly be as sophisticated as any of the people you mentioned ought to be punished by instant torture to deathThe book that has driven the best civilization in the world, European civilization. The best music, art, architecture, literature, philosophy, poetry.Now back to jeetland.
>>23556980>Is Jung responsible for the absolute abomination that is modern astrology?I've just started reading him and that's what I'm getting.But it's less that he is directly responsible and more like people who barely understood his ideas flanderized them.
>>23556980I tried to see the reasoning in astrology but it has too many flaws, why don't x and y have same personality if born on same day? Oh because their sun matches but not their moon. Okay but what about born same time? Oh then the location. Okay what about twins born minutes apart who have very different personalities despite being fraternal/identical? Well umm...
>>23556962Anyone who reads fiction for pleasure or has had a junkie period knows real escapism is impossible to achieve thoughbeit, or: massively retarded post
>>23556980>Is Jung responsible for the absolute abomination that is modern astrology?It's been said he was a big influence to new age, so maybe. He was more interested in alchemy though.>>23556980>Also what is the difference between his archetypes and Plato's ideas.They have almost nothing in common. For Jung, archetypes are learnt and depends on the civlizations. He warned against going full weeb. Alan watts talking:>I began to read Jung when I first began to study Eastern philosophy in my late adolescence. And I’m eternally grateful to him for what I would call a sort of balancing influence on the development of my thought. As an adolescent, in rebellion against the sterile Christianity, in which I was brought up, I was liable to go absolutely overboard for exotic and foreign ideas. Until I read the extraordinarily wise commentary that he wrote to Richard Wilhelm’s translation of the Chinese Taoist text called the “Secret of the Golden Flower.” And it was Jung who helped me to remind myself that I was by, upbringing in by tradition, always a Westerner and I couldn’t escape from my own cultural conditioning.
>>23557006Holy cope lol.>real escapism has never been tried
>>23557047Yeah never mind I guess it works when you keep looking for gotcha moments on 4chan to feed his majesty the ego lolThanks for proving Freud right again I guess?
>>23556559based anime cunny enjoyer
>>23554886I regret to inform you that you have, indeed, just read something written by a Jew
>>23556980>Is Jung responsible for the absolute abomination that is modern astrology?He respected it insofar as people's reactions to it revealed psychic truths. He said it was reasonable to think people that came of age in the same seasons would be similar. The current state of astrology is women being women. >Also what is the difference between his archetypes and Plato's ideas.they are not related. Plato's ideas were that every object had an ideal form that we reach at when we call something by its name. An archetype is an idea that is present in all humans by the collective unconscious such as the father, the self, death, and immolation.
>>23557089>Yeah never mind I guess it works when you keep looking for gotcha moments on 4chan to feed his majesty the ego lolSee now you're getting it>Thanks for proving Jung right again I guess?Ftfy
>>23551193Aion. Probably needs Jung and the Alchemical Imagination as context tho
>>23551193This book was incredibly underwhelming and felt like it was just something Jung's understudies/students were creating and Jung himself shrugged and passively signed off on.>>23551212RSV is the most legit in terms of prose, RSVCE ideally because it includes the seven extra books of the Bible that were censored during the reformation and aren't in the KJV despite being essential to understanding the later parts of the Bible.
>>23557004The time of day and place of birth does also impact the chart, so two minutes of difference does have an impact albeit small. I'm learning astrology but there really is too much more to learn, partly because modern astrology is absolute garbage but that is the easiest to find. I've learned my lesson though, the hard way.>>23557002Yeah i know Alan Leo and the Theosophists are responsible for modern astrology but I wondered about Jung's part in it.
>>23556971projecting your wiggerishness onto me when you're a fucking mutt who worships a Jew is comedy>>23556992Jew worshipping amerimutt>The book that has driven the best civilization in the world, European civilization. The best music, art, architecture, literature, philosophy, poetry.all of those were invented by pagan Europeans before a group of subhuman Jews wrote the Bible little buddy. I suggest you gain some historical context and knowledge instead of a twitter education from spic fuentes, mutt>>23557174it's over.
>>23556992>Christfag shit is the reason why European culture is amazing. Are you a latrinx?
