>>23610640
One word: Parsifal

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>>23610640
>OP thinking you either have to be an atheist redditor or a Christcuck

>>23610640
Christianity can be of a master morality, Nietzsche admits this. His multiple excellent criticisms mostly apply to slave Christianity, and as for his criticisms of Christianity proper, it basically comes down to faith in God, which is what he lacks

>>23610640
>did you say not to kill or steal? that's racist against Black People

LOL

>>23610663
>master morality by turning the other cheek

Lol

You can't be a Christian and a "free spirit".

>>23610676
>turning the other cheek
It's funny you picked that example from Christianity when you can ctrl+f zarathustra for "revenge" and find Nietzsche saying what amounts to the same thing dozens of times, and calling those who do not do so "tarantulas"

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>>23610640

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>>23610640
We have nothing here to do with the astoundingly varied attempts of speculative human reason to explain the nature of this Son of the God, who walked on earth and suffered shame: where the greater miracle had been revealed in train of that manifestation, the reversal of the will-to-live which all believers experienced in themselves, it already embraced that other marvel, the divinity of the herald of salvation. The very shape of the Divine had presented itself in anthropomorphic guise; it was the body of the quintessence of all pitying Love, stretched out upon the cross of pain and suffering. A—symbol?—beckoning to the highest pity, to worship of suffering, to imitation of this breaking of all self-seeking Will: nay, a picture, a very effigy! In this, and its effect upon the human heart, lies all the spell whereby the Church soon made the Græco-Roman world her own. But what was bound to prove her ruin, and lead at last to the ever louder "Atheism" of our day, was the tyrant-prompted thought of tracing back this Godliness upon the cross to the Jewish "Creator of heaven and earth," a wrathful God of Punishment who seemed to promise greater power than the self-offering, all-loving Saviour of the Poor. That god was doomed by Art: Jehova in the fiery bush, or even the reverend Father with the snow-white beard who looked down from out the clouds in blessing on his Son, could say but little to the believing soul, however masterly the artist's hand; whereas the suffering god upon the cross, "the Head with wounds all bleeding," still fills us with ecstatic throes, in the rudest reproduction.

It was a weighty feature of the Christian Church, that none but sound and healthy persons were admitted to the vow of total world-renunciation; any bodily defect, not to say mutilation, unfitted them. Manifestly this vow was to be regarded as issuing from the most heroic of all possible resolves, and he who sees in it a "cowardly self-surrender"—as someone [Nietzsche] recently suggested,—may bravely exult in his own self-retention, but had best not meddle any further with things that don't concern him.

>>23610640
The fact that he signs his last letters The Crucified obviates the apparent atheism. He had a very pious nature. It can happen that one is so moral and has such an active conscience that one even attacks morality itself, as inauthentic, of dubious motivation, as is often the case. It’s a paradox but it’s true. He anticipated this in Ecce Homo that he would one day be considered a Saint—I’m not a Saint, I’d rather be a clown! he says.

I’m not a “traditional Christian” and the tradlarpers here would consider me a heretic

>>23610644
First post, best post. No further proof is necessary.

>>23610696
That organization makes us think the quotes are together. The second paragraph isn’t in Religion and Art

>>23610715
They work together. I highly doubt any Nietzschean ITT is going to take the time to read Wagner.

>>23610690
>a pole and two jews
cringecore

>>23610886
it's funny lol

>>23610663
The "master moralists of Christianity" ie Cortez and Vasco de Gama were for all intents and purposes heretics who completely ignored Jesus's teachings

>>23611091
Look, you walk into a city that's decorated with a literal pyramid of skulls and then tell me that putting it to fire and sword isn't "loving thy neighbor"

>>23611097
I'm not saying it isn't based, but I am saying its pretty incongruent to exterminate the population under the guise of God's love

>>23610640
Thought the book was ok until he started simping for Islamic Spain

>>23611120
I don't think they were trying to exterminate the population, that strikes me as revised whig history, without knowing specifics (I'm sure there are some Catholic apologetics about it somewhere) but it is at least conceivable that exterminating segments of the political and military elite to conquer a society may be done out of genuine love for God & neighbor, if it is the shortest foreseeable path to peace. Not saying that's what they did either, but that would be the ideal to strive for

>>23611147
Psalm 18:34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

>>23610640
How can you not follow the Brahmanic God after reading this?
How do you justify yourself?

>>23610640
I have faith and I've had several mystical/supernatural experiences.

>>23611164
>I've had several mystical/supernatural experiences
The thing is Nietzsche had many of these experiences (not including his madness which is explicitly spiritual), that's what art is for him, the sublime metaphysical task. He felt himself called to change to the world--how come, where did this confidence come from? He is the rare atheists who understands the spiritual aspect of life, most today are obviously Letzter Mensch. Given this, he felt it necessary to revolutionize contemporary biology science--I don't think most readers know how deep this critique goes... For this reasons mystical interpretations of Nietzsche do feel authentic, and the people making them do seem to better comprehend his nature

>>23610640
Because Nietzsche's argument is very weak. He's simply appealing to an experiential sense of Christianity which is easily dismissed for anyone who felt something positive where he felt the opposite. Nietzsche asserts there's a resentment at the heart of the faith or at least in its scriptures for which he offers no evidence aside from his own reinterpretation of the death of Christ and the response of the Apostles. Well, really, so what? It's the philosophical equivalent of posting a soijak. The bigger question is why on Earth anybody would accept something so obviously unreasonable and the answer is more to do with the strength of Nietzsche's personality and his will than his arguments. It's very obvious that the kind of people who flock to his work are young disgruntled and ultimately lost souls that aren't just willing to be dragged by a heroic savior but are, in fact, hoping to be. Despite this, very few 'Nietzscheans' that I've ever met have taken up the mantle of reevaluating all values and instead pivot from one established aesthetic system to another, devoid of any values whatsoever. Today the young Nietzschean is a traditional Catholic, tomorrow he's a fascist, two weeks from now he's an anarcho-capitalist, in a year he's a communist, in a decade he's a monarchist, and so on and so forth, forever. This is a recipe for disaster.

>>23611258
You are mistaken in judging Nietzsche by the Nietzscheans--as such most of this text you've produced can be ignored. One would of course be even more mistaken to view Christ according to the Christians, and Nietzsche always seems to regard Christ with a certain reverence.

>>23611262
The first half of my post addresses Nietzsche's critique directly. He reads into Christianity a spirit of resentment by constructing an elaborate false narrative about the death of Christ and the reaction of his followers. It's irrelevant what he thinks about Christ in particular, his argument is terribly weak by any reasonable standard. It's only been well received on account of his strong personality and evocative writing.
>You are mistaken in judging Nietzsche by the Nietzscheans
I don't. I clearly frame a question asking why it is that Nietzsche has been well received in spite of his poor arguments which I proceed to answer. You'll forgive me for deviating ever so slightly from the intention of the thread.

>>23611262
"A certain reverence" yet he denies the Resurrection.

>>23611298
So does Emerson. If your sensibility is this womanish and fine, you shouldn't be on 4chan in the first place

>>23611306
No, I'm simply a real Christian, not a fake one. Anyone who denies the reality of Christ Crucified and Christ Risen ultimately has no respect for Christ at all.

>For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

>>23610886
>a pole

>>23611323
You are a sassy good fellow

>>23611323
>Anyone who denies the reality of Christ Crucified and Christ Risen ultimately has no respect for Christ at all
Taken as a scientific statement this is absurd. But I get the point you are trying to make

>>23610648
You types of faggots will never say what you actually are though so your opinion is worthless until you do.

>>23611363
He's objectively pointing out that there is a variety of positions beyond whatever simplified friend v enemy paradigm one happens to be in thrall to. You would be the one to know about "types of faggots"

>>23611400
>teehee can't pigeonhole me
>no I will not provide an actual concrete position
There are more than two things to believe, but you're scared of getting outed as the midwit you are which is why you won't positively contribute anything. You're a scaredy-cat.

>>23611428
I'm talking in general. I am uncomfortable and would never use the term he used, with cuck in it, even unironically, though I understand what it seeks to critique, the slavishness of many believers.

I do think that (most?) people are entrapped by these oppositions which, from a high plane, are incredibly incomplete. The most basic is of course conservative v liberal.

I consider myself a Romantic Christian and am an admirer of Nietzsche.

>When I say this, I remember the desperate cruelty with which Nietzsche spoke about many, really about all the things he revered: about Wagner, about music in general, about morals, about Christianity—I nearly said: also about all things German—and how even in his most furiously critical outbreaks against these values and forces, which deep within his innermost self he respected, he never, obviously, had the feeling of really doing them harm, but seemed to feel rather that the most awful insults he hurled at them were a form of homage. He said such things about Wagner that we cannot believe our eyes when suddenly we find him talking in Ecce Homo about the “holy hour” in which Richard Wagner died in Venice. How is it, we ask with tears in our eyes, that this hour of death all of a sudden became “holy,” if Wagner was the appalling ham-actor, the debauched debaucher, Nietzsche a hundred times described him as?

>He excused himself to his friend, the musician Peter Gaest, for his constant preoccupation with Christianity: really it was, he claimed, the best piece of idealistic life he had ever known. After all, he said, he was descended from generations of Christian ministers and did not think that he had “ever in his heart vilified Christianity.” No, but in a hysterical voice he had called it “the one immortal stain of dishonor upon humanity”—not without making fun at the same time of the contention that the primitive German had in some way or other been pre-formed or predestined for Christianity: that lazy but warlike and rapacious bearskin-loafer, that sensuously cold lover of the hunt, that beer-drinker who had barely progressed as far as a halfway decent red Indian’s religion, and who no more than ten hundred years ago had slaughtered human beings on sacrificial stones—what affinity could he have had for the highest type of moral subtlety, sharpened as it was by rabbinical intellect, what affinity for the Oriental refinement of Christianity! His allocation of judgments is clear and amusing. To his autobiography, “Antichrist” gives the most Christian of all titles: Ecce Homo. And the last scribblings of insanity are signed “The Crucified.”

>>23610640

I don't need to "justify" anything. NEETzsche is a cretin.

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>>23611516
>A cretin!

>>23610682
people like you should be forbidden from reading literature

>>23611285
>his argument is terribly weak
you cant even reconstruct it and you are calling it weak? he tears straight into the doctrine of the new testament, ignoring it and just saying that he constructs a false historical narrative is dishonest

>>23611532

Note how there were no claims presented, just "after reading this".

>>23611298
He didn't deny the allegorical value of the resurrection.

>>23610640
>bro living like a roman and having gay anal sex with little boys is good because... umm.. its like.. umm.. rebellious and free!!!

>>23610640
by not reading it

>>23611589
You are mad. And why? Because basic reading comprehension skills were all it took to make a fool out of you? "Teacher, teacher, ban him from reading! It's not fair!"

>>23611428
He is trying to define the horizon of idea-space, and all you want is something to punch.

>>23610640
Because everything is subjective. What Nietsczhe wrote is all just his opinion.

>>23610682
>>turning the other cheek
>ctrl+f zarathustra for "revenge"

"When, however, ye have an enemy, then return him not good for evil: for that would abash him. But prove that he hath done something good to you.
And rather be angry than abash any one! And when ye are cursed, it pleaseth me not that ye should then desire to bless. Rather curse a little also!
And should a great injustice befall you, then do quickly five small ones besides. Hideous to behold is he on whom injustice presseth alone.
Did ye ever know this? Shared injustice is half justice. And he who can bear it, shall take the injustice upon himself!
A small revenge is humaner than no revenge at all. And if the punishment be not also a right and an honour to the transgressor, I do not like your punishing."

"Here are priests: but although they are mine enemies, pass them quietly and with sleeping swords!
Even among them there are heroes; many of them have suffered too much—: so they want to make others suffer.
Bad enemies are they: nothing is more revengeful than their meekness. And readily doth he soil himself who toucheth them."

"Like a cry and an huzza will I traverse wide seas, till I find the Happy Isles where my friends sojourn;-
And mine enemies amongst them! How I now love every one unto whom I may but speak! Even mine enemies pertain to my bliss.
And when I want to mount my wildest horse, then doth my spear always help me up best: it is my foot’s ever ready servant:—
The spear which I hurl at mine enemies! How grateful am I to mine enemies that I may at last hurl it!"

>calling those who do not do so "tarantulas"
"The worst things, however, are the petty thoughts. Verily, better to have done evilly than to have thought pettily!
To be sure, ye say: “The delight in petty evils spareth one many a great evil deed.” But here one should not wish to be sparing.
Like a boil is the evil deed: it itcheth and irritateth and breaketh forth—it speaketh honourably.
“Behold, I am disease,” saith the evil deed: that is its honourableness.
But like infection is the petty thought: it creepeth and hideth, and wanteth to be nowhere—until the whole body is decayed and withered by the petty infection.
To him however, who is possessed of a devil, I would whisper this word in the ear: “Better for thee to rear up thy devil! Even for thee there is still a path to greatness!” "

>>23610663
>Christianity can be of a master morality, Nietzsche admits this.
No. He thought the Catholic church had maintained at least some of the values of the Roman Empire, but it was intermingled with slave morality from the very start, which is precisely why Catholicism eventually degenerated into Protestantism, which was (during Nietzsche's time) further degenerating into globohomo. In other words, the master morality present in Catholicism (but not in Protestantism or globohomo) isn't Christian, it's pagan.

Like I need Nietzsche to tell me Christianity is trash, when there's the whole history and present of it that condemns itself.
2000 years of the justification of empires, the divine right of tyrannical monarchs to absolute rule, the justification of the exploitation of the nonhuman world, systematic oppression of non-Christian thought, hundreds of years of colonialism with Christian indoctrination being one of its most powerful weapons, giving birth to the Doomsday device of capitalism, and now that Christian power is declining just a little bit the Christians are freaking out and becoming full delusional, blaming satanic cabals are other such nonsense for the sins of Christianity.

One of my greatest fortunes is having had atheist parents and never having been indoctrinated into the trash of Christianity or religion.

>>23612177
That's just your opinion.

>>23612189
Everything I posted is objective historical fact.
Everything that Christians claim about their imaginary Satanism is true of Christianity.

>>23612177
>Like I need Nietzsche to tell me Christianity is trash
>the divine right of tyrannical monarchs to absolute rule, the justification of the exploitation

"A right is a privilege. Everyone finds his privilege in his own type of being. Let us not underestimate the privileges of the *mediocre*. Life becomes increasingly difficult the *higher* up you go, - it gets colder, there are more responsibilities. A high culture is a pyramid: it needs a broad base, its first presupposition is a strongly and healthily consolidated mediocrity. Crafts, trade, farming, science, most of art - in a word, *employment* can only really function on the basis of a mediocrity of ability and desire: this sort of thing would be out of place among exceptional people, the associated instinct would contradict both aristocratism and anarchism. To be a public utility, a wheel, a function - you need to be destined for this by nature: it is *not* society but rather the type of *happiness* that the vast majority of people cannot rise above that make them intelligent machines. For the mediocre, mediocrity is a happiness; mastery of one thing, specialization as a natural instinct. It would be completely unworthy of a more profound spirit to have any objection to mediocrity as such. Mediocrity is needed *before* there can be exceptions: it is the condition for a high culture. When an exceptional person treats a mediocre one more delicately than he treats himself and his equals, this is not just courtesy of the heart, - it is his *duty* . . . Who do I hate most among the rabble today? The socialist rabble, the Chandala-apostles who undermine workers' instincts and pleasures, their feelings of modesty about their little existences, - who make them jealous, who teach them revenge ... Injustice is never a matter of unequal rights, it is a matter of claiming *'equal'* rights ... What is *bad*? But I have already said it: everything that comes from weakness, from jealousy, from *revenge*. - The anarchist and the Christian are descended from the same lineage."

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>>23612142
tyfys anon

>>23611969
>gay anal sex with little boys is good
But Nietzsche was arguing against Christianity

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>>23612142
>"When, however, ye have an enemy, then return him not good for evil: for that would abash him. But prove that he hath done something good to you.
>And rather be angry than abash any one! And when ye are cursed, it pleaseth me not that ye should then desire to bless. Rather curse a little also!
>And should a great injustice befall you, then do quickly five small ones besides. Hideous to behold is he on whom injustice presseth alone.

>Who do I hate most among the rabble today? The socialist rabble, the Chandala-apostles who undermine workers' instincts and pleasures, their feelings of modesty about their little existences, - who make them jealous, who teach them revenge ... Injustice is never a matter of unequal rights, it is a matter of claiming *'equal'* rights ... What is *bad*? But I have already said it: everything that comes from weakness, from jealousy, from *revenge*. - The anarchist and the Christian are descended from the same lineage."

Ermmm so is revenge good or not??

>>23612142
>NEETzschoids are so mindbroken they translate NEETzsche to sound like the kvj bible

Grim. Post a proper translation, cocksucker.

>>23612248
>Ermmm so is revenge good or not??
Little revenge is humaner than no revenge, because no revenge is itself a form of revenge.

>>23610698
>I’m not a “traditional Christian” and the tradlarpers here would consider me a heretic
What are your beliefs?

>>23611091
>>23611120
How was Cortes a heretic? Read Bernal Diaz eyewitness account of the expedition. They bring a priest everywhere with them, they preach to the natives, they pray and sing mass almost every day, they stop the natives from sacrificing human beings or practicing homosexuality. Yes he wasnt morally perfect in all areas but no Christian is or claims to be. Also he didn't exterminate the population. What the fuck are you actually blabbering about? Cortes ALWAYS tries to make peace with the natives, he is ALWAYS abiding by the principles of Catholic just war theory (as outlined first by Saint Augustine). The massacre at Cholula was IN RESPONSE to finding out they had set a trap for him. Later it got spun into a genocide thing but it wasnt. You have to realise what a dangerous situation these men were in and appreciate the context. Also the Popes of those times literally approved all these expeditions into the new world.

This is what a Dominican Catholic monk wrote against people like you who claim Cortes wasnt pious:
>And as to those who murmur against the Marqués del Valle [Cortés], God rest him, and who try to blacken and obscure his deeds, I believe that before God their deeds are not as acceptable as those of the Marqués. Although as a human he was a sinner, he had faith and works of a good Christian, and a great desire to employ his life and property in widening and augmenting the fair of Jesus Christ, and dying for the conversion of these gentiles ... Who has loved and defended the Indians of this new world like Cortés? ... Through this captain, God opened the door for us to preach his holy gospel and it was he who caused the Indians to revere the holy sacraments and respect the ministers of the church.
>>23612155
The values of the roman empire are homosexuality, pederasty, fratricide, and slavery. Going to war is NOT a value of the Roman Empire, nor is it "master morality". Going to war is a thing which can be done justly or unjustly depending on the circumstances. Just war is a Christian not a Roman value. And the Catholic Church is the only authentic Christian Church, so why are you talking about Protestantism as if it represents Christianity?

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>>23612177

>>23612177
Bait, but then again this whole thread is bait.

>>23612295
Are you offering your view as your own view, or are you alleging this to be Nietzsche's view? Either way it's revealing, because it loops back to Luke 14:11, from Nietzsche's rewriting of that same verse. Jesus and Nietzsche agree against ostentatious displays of virtue/humility, whether twisted inside out or not, emphasizing the distinction between humility and the signalling of humility

>>23611589
Because he actually read something? Anti-intellectual.

>>23612122
>still won't define his position

>>23612394
>because it loops back to Luke 14:11
it loops back to medical assessment of shame/guilt as the condition of why we can't have nice things. "Revenge bad" - not because some Jesus decreed to you thus, but because it is empirically assessed as detrimental to your health.

"For one thing is needful: that a human being should attain satisfaction with himself - <...> only then is a human being at all tolerable to behold! Whoever is dissatisfied with himself is continually prepared to avenge himself for this, and we others will be his victims if only by having to endure his sight. For the sight of something ugly makes one bad and gloomy. "

"Verily, I have done this and that for the afflicted: but something better did I always seem to do when I had learned to enjoy myself better.
Since humanity came into being, man hath enjoyed himself too little: that alone, my brethren, is our original sin!
And when we learn better to enjoy ourselves, then do we unlearn best to give pain unto others, and to contrive pain.
Therefore do I wash the hand that hath helped the sufferer; therefore do I wipe also my soul.
For in seeing the sufferer suffering—thereof was I ashamed on account of his shame; and in helping him, sorely did I wound his pride.
Great obligations do not make grateful, but revengeful; and when a small kindness is not forgotten, it becometh a gnawing worm."


The key word "shame". As such, there is no substantial difference between revenge and gratitude - both are a question of intruding onto someone's sphere power and making even:

"If we love, honour, admire someone, and then afterwards discover that he is *suffering* a discovery that always fills us with the greatest astonishment, for we cannot think otherwise than that the happiness that flows across to us from him must proceed from a superabundant well of happiness of his own our feeling of love, reverence and admiration changes in an *essential respect*: it grows *tenderer*; that is to say, the gulf between us and him seems to be bridged, an approximation to identity seems to occur. Only now do we conceive it possible that we might *give back* to him, while he previously dwelt in our imagination as being elevated above our gratitude. This capacity to give back produces in us great joy and exultation. We try to divine what it is will ease his pain, and we give it to him; if he wants words of consolation, comforting looks, attentions, acts of service, presents we give them; but above all, if he wants us to *suffer* at his suffering we give ourselves out to be *suffering*; in all this, however, we have the *enjoyment of active gratitude* which, in short, is *benevolent revenge*."

>make your own purpose and um... you'll totally feel good, I swear!!
>revenge is le bad because Nietzsche said so but Christianity is c*ucked because it says revenge is le bad
>you are a slave to God
>why yes, I do like cooming more than anything else. Why do you ask?

Until nietzschetrannies, pagan larpers and center-fags like
>>23610648
>>23611400
actually point to a better unifying morality that actually takes a stand against degeneracy, then their stance is practically useless.

>>23612464
>empirically assessed as detrimental to your health.

And?

>>23612478
There's just a tendency for trads to regard Nietzsche as some kind of reddit atheist, and it's just so silly -- you are not even a pseud at that point, you're merely a stupid person

>>23612478
>>revenge is le bad because Nietzsche said so

Revenge is le bad, because it was medically assessed as physiologically detrimental:

"In fact, all the tables of value, all the “you should’s” which history or ethnological research knows about, need, first and foremost, illumination and interpretation from physiology, in any case even before psychology. All of them similarly await a critique from the point of view of medical science. The question “What is this or that table of values and ‘morality’ worth?” will be set under the different perspectives. For we cannot analyze the question “Value for what?” too finely. "

>>but Christianity is c*ucked because it says revenge is le bad

"When you give up Christian faith, you pull the rug out from under your right to Christian morality as well. This is anything but obvious: you have to keep driving this point home, English idiots to the contrary. Christianity is a system, a carefully considered, integrated view of things. If you break off a main tenet, the belief in God, you smash the whole system along with it: you lose your grip on anything necessary. Christianity presupposes that humans do not know, cannot know what is good for them or what is evil, they believe in God who has privileged knowledge of this. Christian morality is a command; it has a transcendent origin; it is beyond all criticism, all right to criticism; it has truth only if God is the truth, - it stands or falls along with belief in God."


>>make your own purpose

"Alas! there are so many great thoughts that do nothing more than the bellows: they inflate, and make emptier than ever.
Free, dost thou call thyself? Thy ruling thought would I hear of, and not that thou hast escaped from a yoke.
Art thou one entitled to escape from a yoke? Many a one hath cast away his final worth when he hath cast away his servitude.
Free from what? What doth that matter to Zarathustra! Clearly, however, shall thine eye show unto me: free for what?"

>>and um... you'll totally feel good, I swear!!

"Intelligently doth the body purify itself; attempting with intelligence it exalteth itself; to the discerners all impulses sanctify themselves; to the exalted the soul becometh joyful.
Physician, heal thyself: then wilt thou also heal thy patient. Let it be his best cure to see with his eyes him who maketh himself whole."


>>why yes, I do like cooming more than anything else. Why do you ask?
"Ah! I have known noble ones who lost their highest hope. And then they disparaged all high hopes.
Then lived they shamelessly in temporary pleasures, and beyond the day had hardly an aim.
“Spirit is also voluptuousness,”—said they. Then broke the wings of their spirit; and now it creepeth about, and defileth where it gnaweth.
Once they thought of becoming heroes; but sensualists are they now. A trouble and a terror is the hero to them."

This is a paltry book full of blasphemies, inaccuracies, and fallacies, all rooted in a naked and puerile narcissism. I can't think too highly of anyone who would be impressed by this.

Like all Protestants Nietzsche thinks he can disregard the entire history of Christianity and just discern for himself what Christ's true doctrine was. He ends up saying that Christ was just a hippy pacifist who really taught that everyone was God. Christ apparently did away with the concept of personal guilt and reduced the concept of heaven to something like subjective presence in the here and now. He even has the gall to call our Lord an idiot. Then he claims his followers and the Church perverted his doctrine.

This interpretation -- which he lifted from Tolstoy, a random Russian author -- is not backed by Scripture or the Tradition that was handed down to us by the eyewitnesses and first disciples of Christ. In fact Christ placed a large emphasis on sin and guilt ("cut your eye out if it causes you to sin"; "it is better for a millstone to be hung around his neck..."; etc.). And he offered himself as a sacrifice so that we would eat his true flesh at the Catholic Mass and become spiritually healed ("whoever does not eat my flesh or drink my blood will not see life...").

Nietzsche also derides compassion and claims this is a gateway to nihilism. This comes from a weird association on his part between Christianity and Schopenhaurian philosophy, which is not the same. Christianity shares Schopenhauer's emphasis on asceticism but it is not life denying, it does not seek to put an end to consciousness or desire, rather it wishes to see these well-ordered by Virtue and Piety.

Then there's the claim that Christianity teaches weakness or egalitarianism. Again this is not the case. For example, Christianity teaches that there ought to be a patriarchal hierarchy in the household -- that the man ought to be the head and the wife ought to obey him. Similarly, we have the just war doctrine of St. Augustine which was accepted into Catholic tradition, which teaches that military action can be justified under certain circumstances. The first is a clear counterexample to the idea that Christianity teaches egalitarianism, and the second is a counterexample to the idea that Christianity teaches weakness or pacifism.

That's all there is to say about it. The book isn't impressive and he was just plain wrong. He may have been demonically possessed, since his way of deceiving people was very diabolical. He uses his style to sweet talk you and make you think you're cool and important for reading him (calling his readers superior people etc) which lends his ideas credibility. But the substance is lacking.

>>23612506
>Like all Protestants
Get a life lol. Keep on following Pope Frank! He's God's man!

>>23612338
>The values of the roman empire are homosexuality, pederasty, fratricide, and slavery
Christian propaganda against the Empire isn't true.

>why are you talking about Protestantism as if it represents Christianity?
Christianity produced it more than paganism did.

>>23612488
>And?
>>23612503
>"When you give up Christian faith, you pull the rug out from under your right to Christian morality as well.

Either you claim that Abrahamic god's decrees do have some naturalistic commitments, and then it becomes merely a question of how well a particular ancient fable-book fits for eugenical purposes.

Or any similarities between Nietzsche and Christians are merely coincidental. After all, Nietzsche's purpose was not to make some spiteful 180-degrees inversion of Christianity - Nietzsche's purpose was to make humans healthy again.


"Every sin is an injury of respect, a *crimen laesae majestatis divinae* [crime of insulting the dignity of god] - and nothing further! Feeling spiritually crushed, degraded, wallowing in the dust - that is the first and last condition of his grace; in sum, restoration of his divine honour! Whether the sin has done any other harm; whether it has planted some deep, growing calamity that seizes and strangles one person after another like a disease; this honour-craving Oriental couldn't care less: sin is an assault on him, not on humanity! He gives those to whom he grants his grace also this same nonchalance about the natural consequences of sin. God and humanity are here conceived as so separate and opposite that there can basically be no sin against humanity - every deed is supposed to be considered *only with respect to its supernatural consequences*, not with respect to its natural consequences; that is what Jewish feeling, to which everything natural is indignity itself, demands. "

>>23612557
Why are you romanticising the Roman Empire so much? Yes there were many good and interesting things about it but it's undeniable that before they received the light of the Gospel they were on the whole in many respects barbaric and uncivilised. Cousin marriage, homosexuality/pederasty, gladiatorial combat, lack of a coherent philosophical worldview (Stoicism isn't much more than a guide for practical virtue). You sound like one of these modern day tankies simping for China or a Neocon who thinks the US is beyond reproach.

>>23612138
>Because everything is subjective
Yes, but subjects are not equal — some wills are stronger than others.

>>23612558
God loves us. He is not the arbitrary Islamic God of pure will. He is a God of love and justice. Thus, his commandments are for our own good, even if we may not realise them. This includes continence and sexual morality. Nietzsche may have been too unintelligent to realise it (since it requires a bit of forward thinking) but sexual impropriety is in fact bad for you and for society as a whole.

>>23611469
Sauce on that quote? Also you may wish to read what Schiller had to say about Christianity.

>>23612589
>Why are you romanticising the Roman Empire so much?
I'm not? You completely fucking trashed it, retard. You undermined it rather than I romanticized it. "It was all le homosexuality and slavery!" (as if slavery is a bad thing and not a necessary thing for all higher culture)

>lack of a coherent philosophical worldview
Caesar didn't lack this — but the Romans didn't have enough time to cultivate his work due to early Christians ransacking the place.

>>23612506
>He even has the gall to call our Lord an idiot.
In a Dostoyevskian sense. Nietzsche compared Jesus to Prince Myshkin.
https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/The_Idiot


>Christianity shares Schopenhauer's emphasis on asceticism but it is not life denying, it does not seek to put an end to consciousness or desire,

1 Corinthians 7: 29-31

"29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
30 And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away."

>rather it wishes to see these well-ordered by Virtue and Piety.
"To live in this way, so that there is no point to life any more, this now becomes the 'meaning' of life"


>Then there's the claim that Christianity teaches weakness or egalitarianism. Again this is not the case.
"That as immortal souls, everyone is on the same level as everyone else, that in the commonality of all beings, the 'salvation' of *each* individual lays claim to an eternal significance, that the small-minded and the half-mad can think well of themselves, that the laws of nature are constantly *broken* for their sake - you cannot heap enough contempt on this, every type of selfishness increasing *shamelessly* to the point of infinity. And yet Christianity owes its victory to this miserable flattery of personal vanity, - it is precisely the failures, the rebellion-prone, the badly developed, all the rejects and dejects of humanity, that Christianity has won over by these means. 'Salvation of the soul' - in plain language: 'the world revolves around *me*' "

>Similarly, we have the just war doctrine of St. Augustine
In other words, first a priest wins the plebs over, then he bitch-slaps them and says 'Yeah, nah. Know your place, sheep.'

>>23612501
>failed in his actual main pursuits (music composition and poetry) so he became a "cultural commentator" instead
>"aphorist" who thought he was more clever than he really was
>actual arguments are only conveyed through overly-emotional "mic drop" lines
>general "we live in a society" thought
>unfulfilled dopamine addict (Wagner wrote to his and Nietzsche's physician that he thought Nietzsche had a masturbation addiction and that was the source of his weird mannerisms)
He wasn't a "reddit atheist," but it's not hard to see these correlations add up.

>>23612633
Your brain is rotted

>>23612603
>Thus, his commandments are for our own good
So, naturalistic commitments then? In that case, there is no need for a god. Skip directly to nature and eugenics then.

>God loves us.
"One should hold fast one’s heart; for when one letteth it go, how quickly doth one’s head run away!
Ah, where in the world have there been greater follies than with the pitiful? And what in the world hath caused more suffering than the follies of the pitiful?
Woe unto all loving ones who have not an elevation which is above their pity!
Thus spake the devil unto me, once on a time: “Even God hath his hell: it is his love for man.”
And lately, did I hear him say these words: “God is dead: of his pity for man hath God died.”—
So be ye warned against pity: From thence there yet cometh unto men a heavy cloud! Verily, I understand weather-signs!
But attend also to this word: All great love is above all its pity: for it seeketh—to create what is loved!
“Myself do I offer unto my love, and my neighbour as myself”—such is the language of all creators.
All creators, however, are hard."

>This includes continence and sexual morality
"And also this parable give I unto you: Not a few who meant to cast out their devil, went thereby into the swine themselves.
To whom chastity is difficult, it is to be dissuaded: lest it become the road to hell—to filth and lust of soul.
<...>
Verily, there are chaste ones from their very nature; they are gentler of heart, and laugh better and oftener than you.
They laugh also at chastity, and ask: “What is chastity? Is chastity not folly? But the folly came unto us, and not we unto it.
We offered that guest harbour and heart: now it dwelleth with us—let it stay as long as it will!” "

>>23612607
https://www.commentary.org/articles/thomas-mann/nietzsche-in-the-light-of-modern-experience/
jewish mag sorry! lol

>>23612633
It's not impossible that you are the stupidest chud in the history of this website

>>23612464
>not because some Jesus decreed to you thus, but because it is empirically assessed as detrimental to your health.
Right so they say the same thing. And Nietzsche built his ideology up from scratch in his garage, so he is assured of its quality and craftsmanship. But Jesus never said "because I said so" - God's law is supposed to be wholesome chungus and healthful to believers. I just can't unsee the convergent evolution, here...

>Since humanity came into being, man hath enjoyed himself too little: that alone, my brethren, is our original sin!
Wording gets in the way, but modulo God's infinite love for us, and Christ's greatest commandment - love God back, and love your neighbor as yourself - I see convergence here too

It just seems clear to me, through many examples of convergences and parallels, that Nietzsche gets away with claiming Christianity is corrupt because Christians haven't lived up to Christ's example (impossible), yet neither has anyone lived up to the example of the Ubermensch, either. The differences are fewer than supposed, if you read either with the charity they deserve (uncharitable readings destroy so easily)

>>23612821
>Christ's example (impossible)
No?

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>>23612832
Pelagian detected. Prepare for purgation.

>>23612653
Interesting read, thank you.

>>23610714
>>23610644
>the opera based on Schopenhauer and which was initially about Buddhism is "proof" of Christianity
He also commits a heresy in Parsifal by implying that Good Friday is the most holy day and not Easter. In fact, Wagner personally probably didn't even believe in the Resurrection, and his acceptance of Christianity was not predicated on Christ's rising from the dead (an article of dogma/faith in Christianity) but on a peculiar Schopenhauerian interpretation (anathema) where Christ's suffering (Crucifixion) is the most important theological event in history, not the Resurrection. It's more gnostic than anything else.

>>23612501
I wasn't calling Nietzsche a reddit atheist. His IQ was too high for that. I called 99% of his followers/admirers reddit atheists, which is true and you know it.

>>23610663
He is not trying to keep Christ in Christmas here, or recenter the worship of God in the religion; he is very much concerned with 1. the Christian God being unbelievable to modern Europeans, and 2. the consequences this has for the spread of nihilism since Christianity's life denying and slave morality are only emboldened by the absence of the affirmation of this negation called "God." (2) should be very obvious to you, the main argument today's lay apologists for Christianity have is that Christianity is socially or morally necessary, not that it is believable or true— or if it is true, they don't care to prove it to you and retreat into tactical postmodernism/relativism/etc. to justify their dogmatism.

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>>23610640

Christianity is fake and gay

>>23612503
>Christianity presupposes that humans do not know, cannot know what is good for them or what is evil, they believe in God who has privileged knowledge of this
**Christianity presupposes that humans DID not know. They do know now what is good for them and what is evil.
>Then lived they shamelessly in temporary pleasures, and beyond the day had hardly an aim.
Serious question: Do you really think most atheist Nietzscheans take this to heart? I should've been more clear: My critique was on the entailment of reddit atheists following such a philosophy and the detriment it causes long term. There is no materialist or secular argument against hedonism. Humans need some sort of moral foundation or it will all collapse. Nietzsche knew this but the logical extension of humans needing a moral foundation is that they need a higher power to put down objective moral law. Otherwise everybody chooses their own morality for themselves and then we get trannies and furries because "who cares what grown adults do behind closed doors?!? It's not hurting anyone therefore it's good!"

>>23613284
Parsifal wasn't initially about Buddhism, that was Die Sieger, and Schopenhauer certainly aligned himself with and praised Christianity, to a degree that made it suitable for Nietzsche to criticise him on those grounds. When Nietzsche is rejecting Christianity as a spiritual orientation more than as a dogma, what does it matter whether Parsifal is dogmatically Christian? It's still a Christian artwork, invoking pity, faith and Christ the Redeemer.

>>23610640
Nietzsche doesn't make an argument against the existence of god, he takes non-existence as the starting point. I like Nietzsche, but there isn't any reason to not believe in God after reading Nietzsche.

Nietzsche promotes self worship and arrogance. Nietzscheism is religion for narcissistic individual

>>23613669
It doesn’t matter what someone’s admirers are like. 99% of Christ’s followers are hypocritical naga

Th important thing to know about Nietzsche is that he was an aesthete to the highest possible degree

>>23614047
Not really

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>>23612506
>tolstoy
>a random Russian author

>>23614262
>It doesn’t matter what someone’s admirers are like
Yes, it does. You would agree that subversive judeo-christianity has ruined social fabric so you don't even believe that. However, the thing is that the subversive parts of these ideologies stems from the subjective morality that thinkers like Nietzsche propose.

>>23614313
I don't believe that lol. The discipline of Christianity led to modern science, as Nietzsche said, who actually has admirers, not including myself, of high eminence. That the rabble tries to put their grubby fingers all over him and make abuse of this sublime dream, the ubermensch, is irrelevant to such distinguished souls as myself. (I predict I have caused much seethe with my arrogance - good.)

>>23612557
>Christianity produced it more than paganism did
Blatantly untrue. Paganist ideals riddled the Protestant movement in the U.S. You'd be surprised at how much feminist-tier rhetoric was being spouted back when the Protestants began to go full schizo. Attaching Christianity to it, which is paganism's antithesis, is an oxymoron. You could say it's a corrupted form of Christianity, sure, but it's like saying purified water is the same as sewer water.

>>23614337
You don't believe that subversive ideologies have ruined social fabric? Really?

Nietzsche’s whole “philosophy” is literally riddled with ad hominem, strawmen, and non-sequiturs. An introduction to logic course refutes Nietzsche entirely. Once you realize this, you can’t accept what he did as real philosophy. It is basically poetry masquerading as philosophy.

>>23614337
Enlightenment science was to a huge degree influenced by occultism which was smuggled into Europe from Eastern religions like Islam and Buddhism. The foremost influence on the Scottish enlightenment was Rosicrucianism.

So it’s not so much that Christianity that gave us science as a bunch of Christian heresies.

>>23614353
This. I like Nietzsche's writings, don't get me wrong, but it's pretty subpar "philosophy".

>>23614363
It's less the thread of ideas (there's nothing "scientific" about the Gospels) than the discipline and breeding of the type, scientific man
>>23614380
it's anti-philosophy. philosophy is a swindle, as he correctly saw

>>23610640
Why is this so hard for you hylics to comprehend?

I know God. That's why I became a Christian. How could the words of a dead failure who didn't know God have any impact upon me, a man who does?

It isn't me who needs to justify myself. You need to justify why you think the words of a dead moron should have more significance to me than my own life and my own reason.

>>23614449
>Why is this so hard for you hylics
Complaining about hylics and then pretending to be a Christian lol you cannot make it up

>>23614459
>gotcha that's actually a self-getting gotcha
Many such cases—especially from the (You)s of 4chan.

>>23614471
Mormonism is true

>>23614486

https://cesletter.org/

>>23614497
meaningless critiques. Tell me more about how the gospels are contradictory

>>23614420
Replies like this trigger me so much, but I have to remind myself that it’s possible you’re not a pseud and are just young, like I was.

>>23610640
Nietzsches takes on the Bible prove he's a brainlet

>>23614507
Kek, the the 4chan experience 2024 in a nutshell.

>>23614449
Based and good point pilled

>>23614471
>What sort of group is that?
A based group.

>>23614507
explain why it triggers you. the swindle part?

>>23613983
To be fair, OP and Nietzsche both referred to the christian God, specifically. Not the Deist God, not the Devas or Ahuras, and neither the olympians. But you are right he assumes atheism as a starting point. I guess the Anti-christ is more an attempt at dissection of Christianity (From the crucifixion onward) and the Christian God rather than a refutation. I doubt he really opposed theism or anything like that.
If the last sections of Antichrist are any indication, he considered "Christianity" and "The christian God" to be separate entities from the physical-artistic trappings of Christianity and the Christian God. Cesare Borgia as pope would abolish "Christianity" from Christianity and rid the Christian God of "the Christian God" at least that is how I interpret it.

>>23612478
>a stand against degeneracy
Nothing needs to take a stand against degeneracy, you fascist brainlet. If degeneracy threatens you, you have a weak character and/or a secret desire for degeneracy.

>>23612603
>sexual impropriety is in fact bad for you and for society as a whole
The only two sexual things a human can do that are universally improper, excluding things that directly harm, are asexuality, where release/tension/rest aren't experienced, and allowing the social group to fail to regulate sexual activity.

>>23614564
>I doubt he really opposed theism or anything like that.
He lived in a part of the world where all thought really was shaped by the hierarchy and church that was stultifying it. The validity of both were seen as self-evident, based as they were on the seasons. Modified paganism sketched out the festivals and rituals, God approved of the aristocracy, so every event was before the change of seasons and the harvest.

European people living in the southern hemisphere were seen as the best candidates for living without God, as the seasons and the calendar were inverted in relation to Europe.

Churchy idiots just transplanted all their elitist desires and urges to the new worlds their empires created.

>>23614581
>secret desire for degeneracy.
Vulgar psychoanalysis is for the birds.

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nietzsche was a chud

>>23614449
>hylics
Stopped reading right there

>>23614691
It wouldn't matter if you hadn't, hylic.

>>23614338
Calvinism is most of all to blame for globohomo and it's far more Christian than it is pagan.

>>23614597
As I said I think "Christianity" in his view need not be capital C Christian in the conventional sense.
>>23614633
What bothers me the most about this image is how the "photo" above the Nietzsche drawing is very clearly a pencil sketch.

>>23615140
Please do make the for this, if you can.

>>23610640
Because Christ is the way, the truth and the life.
and
Christ's teaching is higher than any philosopher or sage.

>>23612621
It doesn't matter because Nietzsche's interpretation of Jesus' life is completely inaccurate. It is fanfiction-tier stuff that is not supported by Scripture or Apostolic Tradition.

Your quote from Saint Paul does not prove that Christianity is life-denying. St. Paul is exhorting his followers to not get too attached to this world, but to think of the hereafter. This is not the same as Schopenhauer's view that all desire, all will to live ought to be eliminated, that we essentially ought to seek freedom in a Buddhistic nothingness. On the contrary, Christianity teaches that the soul is immortal, that life is eternal, and that the body will be resurrected and we will have a material existence in the afterlife. These two positions are not the same; it is a demonic lie to say they are.

Your assertion that a life ordered by Virtue means that there is no point to life anymore is plainly absurd. In fact, there is no point in a profligate life. Parties, drink, promiscuity and so on bring false happiness and can only appeal to low minded people. A life lived according to the law of God brings true eudaimonia.

Next you attempt to prove that Christianity teaches egalitarianism by citing a quote about salvation being available to everybody. Now this does not prove your claim. The definition of egalitarianism is not simply that there exists a property common to all mankind. For there are of course many such examples of universal human properties. The property of being human by definition applies to all men. Every man is equal with respect to his humanity. That does not mean however that there ought not to be any social hierarchies, any political organisation, or any authority. The latter is what egalitarianism is, but Christianity does not affirm the latter. It does affirm an objective God-given morality that all men must abide by no matter their social rank or station. But it neverth3less teaches that most have fallen short of what is required and will not see eternal life.

The rest of your quote simply misunderstands salvation. Salvation is not a case of the "small minded and half mad" thinking well of themselves. Rather, it is a case of them realising their small-mindedness or half-madness, repenting and seeking sanctification in God so that they may attain the virtues necessary to overcome their flaws and become a perfect person, a Saint.

Finally, your claim about augustine's just war theory is barely comprehensible and is not serious. Augustine laid out the principles for military action to be considered just from a Christian perspective. That alone utterly refutes the lie that Christianity teaches pacifism.

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>>23610640
>How can you still follow Christianity and the Christian "God" after reading this?
by not reading it
>How do you justify yourself?
Jesus is the one who justifies me.

>>23610663
Jesus is worth being a slave to.
That's how awesome He is.
Jesus' slave has more freedom than any earthly slave owner.

Daily reminder that the Bible describes leprosy as le curse from god, but it's just an infection contracted through no moral fault of their own and can be treated with modern medicine. Why don't Christians talk about leprosy any more?

>>23613784
>Parsifal wasn't initially about Buddhism, that was Die Siege
Which he scrapped and turned into Parsifal...
>Schopenhauer certainly aligned himself with and praised Christianity
Schopenhauer liked the life-denying aspects of the New Testament but hated the Old Testament (and while he considered the NT to rectify the OT, Wagner in turn wanted the entire OT gone and was a Marcionist) but more importantly Schopenhauer was a docetist who believed Christ had no physical body - a classic heresy.
>When Nietzsche is rejecting Christianity as a spiritual orientation more than as a dogma, what does it matter whether Parsifal is dogmatically Christian?
Because I replied to a post that implied Parsifal is somehow "proof" of Christianity - I assume because it's a beautiful work with Christian themes. Except those Christian themes are heavily overblown and Wagner himself, following Schopenhauer's lead, believed in multiple heresies. To the extent that Parsifal is Christian (it's really not, just like the Christian symbolism in Evangelion is just there because it looks cool and has no deeper meaning even according to the creator himself) it's more gnostic than Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox Christianity.
>It's still a Christian artwork, invoking pity, faith and Christ the Redeemer.
Invoking pity does not make something a Christian artwork. Buddhist art does the same. And Parsifal was created when Wagner was enthralled by Schopenhauer and Buddhism. Christian iconography was simply more useful for his dramatic purposes than Buddhistic ones.
>Christ the Redeemer.
The name of Christ or Jesus is not mentioned even once in the entire libretto. Wagner deliberately kept the Erlöser (Redeemer) nameless. I wonder why...?

>>23614459
>u not tru Christian, checkmate
It always devolves into this, no exception

>>23614633
Wtf I love Nietzsche now

I've read On the Genealogy of Morality years ago. If I remember right, it was just a bunch of seething emotional appeal arguments and some shit about paganism being based.

>>23616584
>It is fanfiction-tier stuff that is not supported by Scripture or Apostolic Tradition.
It's a psychological assessment of a 'saviour' type, based on Dostoyevsky's case-study reports.


>St. Paul is exhorting his followers to not get too attached to this world, but to think of the hereafter.

It literally fucking tells you not to procreate. Yet here you fucking are.

1 Corinthians 7: 32-34

"32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband."


Since your parents have fucking spawned, they do not "care for things that belong to the Lord".
Hence, they are shitty Christians, i.e. not virtuous. Simple as.
Had they have "a life ordered by Virtue", you would not have been born.
Q.E.D.


>Your assertion that a life ordered by Virtue means that there is no point to life anymore is plainly absurd
Please, be virtuous and relieve this planet from your defective genes.

>In fact, there is no point in a profligate life.
People are different, their virtues are different. A wolf and a pug have different lifestyles and happinesses, despite being the same species. Yours is to get extinct, as you've been directly unambiguously instructed.

>Every man is equal with respect to his humanity. That does not mean however that there ought not to be any social hierarchies
Every human is different. Different moralities for different breeds.

>Augustine laid out the principles for military action to be considered just from a Christian perspective.
We need to differentiate between a priest (a slave-herder) and a regular wretch. The priest has long switched to domesticating wild european barbarians, so *of course* he'll ass-pull an interpretation that "war is okay". He'll lose his fucking audience (the important ones) otherwise.
Therefore, a katechon instead of apocalyptism. And other mental gymnastics.

>Rather, it is a case of them realising their small-mindedness or half-madness, repenting and seeking sanctification in God
"Everywhere resoundeth the voices of those who preach death; and the earth is full of those to whom death hath to be preached.
Or “life eternal”; it is all the same to me—if only they pass away quickly!"

>>23616854
Are you implying it can't be both a curse and a treatable infection for some reason? Hah? I cannot even guess at what mystical magical retard logic is at work here.

>>23617084
>Are you implying it can't be both a curse and a treatable infection
The next time you get sick, the righteous ought to shun you for being a sinful little fuck.

>>23617102
If God chooses to curse me, any manner of horrible things could happen to me. His judgement is perfect.

>>23617084
>mystical magical retard logic
but that's you and your ilk
>>23617116
>we have free will!
>until we don't

>>23617141
I would have the freedom of choice to either accept my suffering with dignity and gratitude and love God, or to become a resentful little worm. Like we always do.

>>23617151
Anime isn't real. Magic isn't real. Your tall tales aren't real. Stories are stories. Don't get so easily psyoped. Grow up.

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>Christianity is... LE BAD
>#liveyourtruth
>Choose-Your-Own-Path TM

>>23617163
The Kingdom of God will be there waiting when you finally abandon your pride.

>>23617182
The Kingdom of Reality will be there waiting when you finally abandon your delusions.

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>>23614581
Fragile coomer detected and pic related.
>If degeneracy threatens you
It threatens all of us, you coomer goblin. But I'm sure having women grow up to be crypto-prostitutes, men to be porn addicts and children to be dopamine fried robots is all good just as long as they leave you heckin alone.

>you have a weak character and/or a secret desire for degeneracy.
>if you're homophobic, it means you're secretly gay!
Literal roastie rhetoric. All down to calling me a fascist. I really hope you're a woman because it would truly sadden me if you were a man.

>>23617208
Yes. God is reality, reality is God, and to find them you only need to realize how utterly vain your pride is.

>>23617182

No, it won't "be there waiting", just as it has never been there in the first place. That's the whole point. He's right, and you have an unwarranted belief in a false christ and a false god.

>>23617221
What pride are you talking about? Common sense is pride now?

>>23617231
You have an unwarranted and pointless pride in your false intellect and vain determination.

>>23616941
>Which he scrapped and turned into Parsifal...
Not true, he conceived of them separately, continued to work on them at different points in his life, and even nearing his death wasn't certain if he would or wouldn't do Die Sieger.

>Because I replied to a post that implied Parsifal is somehow "proof" of Christianity
This doesn't change the fact that, if we're searching for a proof of Christianity in response to Nietzsche's conception of it, the spirit is more important than the orthodoxy of dogma in defining whether or not something is Christian. And its Christian themes are not at all overblown, as both Wagner's and Nietzsche's views on it show. And furthermore, its cultural relevancy to Christianity, even if we ignore the real practice of the religion, should be astoundingly obvious. The ecstasy of suffering, with its own musical motif, is not at all Buddhistic and only makes sense with Christian art and culture, with the crucifixion, in mind.

>Invoking pity does not make something a Christian artwork.
And yet the portrayal of pity in Parsifal has its distinctly Christian quality. Pity in Buddhism and pity in Christianity have very different expressions, very different cultural justifications, and in Parsifal it is the Christian pity as it is found in Christian art. Wagner was always concerned with elucidating the foundation of Christian art in the Christian religion, showing their inextricable connection, so using Christian iconography as a superficial layer over his real message would have been utterly against everything he stood for. He was a follower of Schopenhauer, but he transformed his philosophy to a great deal, and towards the end of his life he was also enthralled by Christianity and studied the religion in preparation for writing Parsifal. When Wagner uses the iconography of the Crucifixion, and expresses its significance in the orchestra, he is referring to the same effect a painting of the Crucifixion has on the viewer; he is relying on the traditional unity between Christian iconography and Christian art.

>The name of Christ or Jesus is not mentioned even once in the entire libretto
And yet it explicitly refers to His story, Good Friday, the Eucharist and many other elements of Christian culture. There is no day of suffering, no day of guilt and atonement in Buddhism. He didn't refer to Christ by name because he wanted to emphasise His role as the Redeemer, to keep the drama in the world of myth.

>>23615326
Read Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism and Douglas Kelly's Emergence of Liberty in the Modern World: The Influence of Calvin on Five Governments from the 16th Through 18th Centuries

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>>23616941
>main motif is the Dresdner amen over and over again
>fixation on the theme of sacrifice and redemption
>symbology of the grail and eucharist everywhere
>somehow not Christian

>>23617324
Thanks.

>>23615140
>>23617324
>catholicism believes the world is literally real (an exotic claim at the time and even today in a lot of places)
>catholicism invents materialism
>catholicism invents causality
>catholicism imposes bestial submission to institutional authority therefore prefiguring the masquerade of money making and banking
>catholicism believes that there is such a thing as exchange and becoming (an even more exotic claim)
>catholicism LITERALLY claims that you have to WORK your way to heaven
>catholicism LITERALLY claims that god is in the world therefore any and all work no matter how pointless or evil is LITERALLY sanctioned by god
>therefore capitalism was engendered by..................protestants

The Catholic cries out in pain as he strikes you.

>>23618425
No one said Catholicism was innocent in the matter. Protestantism is just what paved the way among northern Europeans. Catholicism had less success among them.

>>23617075
Dostoyevsky's case study reports are irrelevant. Only Scripture, Tradition, and the Catholic Magesterium have any authority to interpret divine doctrine.

You quote a line from Saint Paul stating that married people are more likely to be less spiritual. Which is true. Then you falsely claim that this means Christianity teaches us not to procreate. But that is not the case. Those men and women who are called to this higher religious service become priests, nuns, or monks, and remain celibate. The rest of us marry and have children. St. Paul himself acknowledges "it is better to marry than to burn [with lust]." In fact, the Catholic Church bans contraception, abortion, onanism, and other non-procreative sex acts. One could hardly ask for a more pro-life set of sexual ethics. Thus your claim that Christianity is against procreation is utterly false and lies in your Protestant hubris of thinking you have any authority to interpret Sacred Scripture on your own.

What I take most issue with is your distortion of the Christian doctrine of salvation. You repeatedly assert that Christianity justifies our foibles and allows inferior people to "think well of themselves" . But that is not the message of the Gospel. The true message is that we recognise these spiritual ailments in ourselves and ask God for the grace to overcome them. With prayers, ascetic practices, sacraments, contemplation of holy art and images, attendance at the sacrifice of the Mass and the consumption of the Eucharist, we continually purify and spiritually cleanse ourselves so that we may conform our will to the law of God. Thus we do not stay in our old state of inferiority. "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation." -- St. Paul.

Christianity does not say to the inferior man, "Rejoice in your inferiority!" Rather it says: "Repent of your inferiority, and rejoice for God will heal you!"

The rest of your post is full of anger, insults, emotional outbursts, and hubris, and isn't worth responding to.

>>23619095
>Then you falsely claim that this means Christianity teaches us not to procreate.
Such an interpretation is hardly unique, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#Alleged_self-castration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valesians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy

>One could hardly ask for a more pro-life set
Ever since Roman emperors have accepted the cultists, the cultists got integrated into the bureaucratic machine, yes. Suddenly non an apocalyptic sect anymore. Suddenly, katechon and shieet.

>The true message is that we recognise these spiritual ailments in ourselves and ask God for the grace to overcome them. With prayers, ascetic practices, sacraments,
translation: insert painkillers to think well of yourselves. Pray and the world will surely start revolving around you. (And if it doesn't, then start the "you are doing it wrong, repent"-speak.)

Typical of a cultist.

>>23610644
N seething and frothing at the mouth after hearing the bell toll

>>23619095
>Christianity does not say to the inferior man, "Rejoice in your inferiority!" Rather it says: "Repent of your inferiority, and rejoice for God will heal you!"

" “I am suffering. Someone or other must be to blame for that”—that’s how every sick sheep thinks. But his shepherd, the ascetic priest, says to him: “That’s right, my sheep! Someone must be to blame for that. But you yourself are this very person. You yourself are the only one to blame—you alone are to blame for yourself!” . . . That is bold enough, and false enough. But one thing at least is attained by that, as I have said, the direction of ressentiment has been—changed."

"everywhere the desire to misunderstand suffering turned into the meaning of life, with suffering reinterpreted into feelings of guilt, fear, and punishment, everywhere the whip, the hair shirt, the starving body, remorse, everywhere the sinner’s breaking himself on the terrible torture wheel of a restless conscience, greedy for its own sickness; everywhere silent torment, extreme fear, the agony of the tortured heart, the spasms of an unknown joy, the cry for “redemption.” As a matter of fact, with this system of procedures the old depression, heaviness, and exhaustion were basically *overthrown*. Life became very interesting once again: lively, always lively, sleepless, glowing, charred, exhausted, and yet not tired—that’s how man looked, the “sinner,” who was initiated into *these* mysteries. This grand old magician in the war against the lack of excitement, the ascetic priest—he had apparently won. *His* kingdom had come. Now people no longer moaned *against* pain; they *longed* for pain: “*More* pain! *More* pain!”— that had been the demanding cry of his disciples and initiates for centuries. Every excess of feeling which brought grief, everything that broke apart, knocked over, smashed to bits, carried away, enraptured, the secrets of the torture chambers, the very invention of hell—from now on everything was discovered, surmised, put into practice. Everything now was available for the magician’s use. Everything in future served for the victory of his ideal, the ascetic ideal. . . . “My empire is not of *this* world”—he said afterwards"

" If with those words people wish to assert that such a system of treatment has improved human beings, then I won’t contradict them. I would only add what “improved” indicates to me—it’s as much as saying “tamed,” “weakened,” “disheartened,” “refined,” “mollycoddled” (hence, almost equivalent to *damaged* . . .). But when we are mainly concerned with sick, upset, and depressed people, such a system, even supposing that it makes them “better,” always makes them *sicker*. <...> We should also consult history: wherever the ascetic priest has put in place this way of dealing with the sick, illness has always spread far and wide at terrifying speed"

>>23619631
I don't care if the interpretation is not unique. Heretical sects are not Christian. Only the official dogmatic teaching of the Roman Catholic Church represents Christian doctrine. Nothing else. The Roman Catholic Church is pro-procreation, not anti-procreation. Therefore your claim that Christianity teaches us to be sterile is utterly false. End of debate.

I also don't give a damn about your oh-so-intelligent historical speculations about how this is supposedly a product of the Roman empire. The true doctrine of Jesus Christ was preserved through the Church in the succession of bishops and at the ecumenical councils. Your speculations are worth 0 when compared to Church authority.

Exorcise that putrid Protestantism out of your soul.
>>23619764
This quote is completely false. Read the parable of the prodigal son. You will see that such feelings of extreme guilt to the point of self hatred are absolutely not a part of Christianity. Stop reading this demonic, twisted liar.

>>23618425
All that can be said, anon, is that the foundations of Capitalism did not arise in Rome, Lisbon, or Madrid.
>>23619095
I am neither of the anons engaged with you in discussion. However, I would like to point out that you are refusing to engage with your opponents' points by just declaring that the catholic church is the true church and leaving it at that. Especially considering Nietzce thought christianity was almsot destroyed during the renaissance, where the Pagan elements of Renaissance italy conspired to dethrone "Christianity" before the reformation re-invigorated it. So, ironically, he you are arguing for the more pagan of the christianities in Nietzche's view.

I will also add that regarding your second big paragraph, you speak about being bettered through god's grace and all that, but what does actually change? What is actually bettered of the christian? There is no physical strenghtening, no mental betterment, only self-flagellation and prayers unto God. Illusory healing. Man is rendered powerless, incapable of being saved, only through god can they stop being weak. Parallel to this is a simultaneous glorification of the poor, the meek. Matthew 19;20-26 offers a good example of both.
And from this may rise a very insidious type of vanity, the vanity of the saved; sanctimony. You do not despise youself enough, y'see, you are corrupt, unpious, unclean. *I*, on the other hand, am saved. On other, more honest, people it will translate into self-flagellation (sometimes literally) and self-hatred.
> Thus we do not stay in our old state of inferiority.
Here you seem to redefine inferiority into such a form where the christian beggar, the slave, the leper are no longer inferior to their master (the opposite, in fact) as long as they keep to "God". A fictive definition with no regards to health, or strength, or will, or anything Nietzsche cared about. The baptized slave is still a slave, now he just smiles toothlessly and content with his slavery; he is now "saved".

Final note: When Nietzsche talks about christianity, he is not talking about Dioceses or the Hypostatic union. He speaking of it as a social and physiological phenomenon and the dogma of the institution you believe to be the final authority is not the most important aspect of it.


That is my view of things, anyway.

>>23621679
How am I refusing to engage with their points? They dishonestly define Christianity as anything anyone claiming to be a Christian believes or ever did. Thus to prove his slander that Christianity teaches against procreation, he appealed to an ancient heretical sect called the Valesians who castrated themselves, and who were condemned as heretical by the Catholic Church in 250AD. So now I as a Catholic must be associated with all manner of heretical sects, including the Protestants and even the obscure Valesians, and am accused of being anti-procreation. Even though the sexual ethics of the Catholic Church are explicitly in favour of procreation. Such an ambiguous definition of "Christianity" is clearly an argumentative trick meant to obscure the discussion and induce guilt by association.

Finally your last argument is a rhetorical mishmash (typical of Nietzsche apostles). Your premises and conclusions aren't clearly stated and your tactic is basically a sophistic attempt to induce an emotional response by associating Christians with all sorts of degrading language ("slaves", "lepers", "toothless", etc.). So I will pick out what I believe are your most important points and respond.

1. Christian religious experiences are illusory. Spiritual healing never occurs.
My response: religious experiences are a real psychological phenomenon. For example, Catholic soldiers often report that their feats of bravery would have been impossible without trust in God and Our Lady. Also, see the lives of the saints.

2. Unfortunate people, such as the poor, sick, or enslaved, ought to be despised. But Christianity teaches that they ought not to be, that in fact they can be superior to the rich and masters. Therefore Christianity is wrong.
My response: being in an unfortunate situation is not enough to make a person despicable. There are many reasons one could be enslaved: born into it, overcome by tyrannical aggressor with arms, or even through one's own fault (such as incursion of debt). The first two cases are out of one's control, and so cannot be grounds for despising someone. The latter may make one despicable, but if the man repents and changes internally that quality no longer resides in him. Similarly, a rich or powerful man can be inferior in spirit.

3. Christianity induces sanctimoniousness.
My response: this is a strange accusation, since all I see from you and other Nietzsche apostles is sanctimoniousness. Your own post is full of sanctimony, with the hilarious way in which you look down on the sick or poor. In any case, read the Gospels: they are a rebuke of Jewish religious sanctimoniousness. We are saved by God so that no man may boast - st Paul.

4. Christianity induces self hatred.
Read St. Paul's epistles. Christianity is a liberation from the self hatred brought on by the strict observance of the Jewish law. In Catholic moral theology this phenomenon is called scrupulosity or despair and it is seen as a bad thing.

>>23621679
>>23621823
Also regarding the supposed self hatred that Christianity induces. Just read the parable of the prodigal son. There is no simpler explanation of God's love than this parable. No matter what we have done, God will receive us with joy if we turn our hearts to him. The Gospel is a message of self forgiveness not self hatred.

>>23621823
>slander that Christianity teaches against procreation
The text is either directly telling it so, or logically contradicting itself saying two irreconcilable things at the same time.

1. Those who are married, care not for the Lord.
2. Marriage is okay.
3. Not giving a shit about God, is okay.

Selective reading is apparently okay, too. The end is nigh, seek not a wife, one cannot have two masters, but... lets procreate some more and please one's spouse. Why the hell not.

>So now I as a Catholic must be associated with all manner of heretical sects
That, or we have to assume that Catholics do not give a shit about their own signed licence agreement.

>So now I as a Catholic must be associated with all manner of heretical sects
>Such an ambiguous definition
Are Crusades okay, or does your Pope wash Muslim migrants' feet?

>For example, Catholic soldiers often report that their feats of bravery would have been impossible without trust in God
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
Why specifically God then, and not magical teletubbies?

>being in an unfortunate situation is not enough to make a person despicable.
>but if the man repents and changes internally
"Epictetus was a slave: his ideal man is without any particular rank, and may exist in any grade of society, but above all he is to be sought in the deepest and lowest social classes, as the silent and self-sufficient man in the midst of a general state of servitude, a man who defends himself alone against the outer world, and is constantly living in a state of the highest fortitude. He is distinguished from the Christian especially, because the latter lives in hope in the promise of “unspeakable glory,” permits presents to be made to him, and expects and accepts the best things from divine love and grace, and not from himself. Epictetus, on the other hand, neither hopes nor allows his best treasure to be given him—he possesses it already, holds it bravely in his hand, and defies the world to take it away from him. Christianity was devised for another class of ancient slaves, for those who had a weak will and weak reason—that is to say, for the majority of slaves."

>this is a strange accusation, since all I see from you and other Nietzsche apostles is sanctimoniousness.
Not an argument
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

>>23621823
>Christianity is a liberation from the self hatred
"It seems to me that people are lying; a sugary mildness clings to every sound. Weakness is going to be falsified into something of merit. There’s no doubt about it—things are just as you said they were.”
—Keep talking!
—“And powerlessness which does not retaliate is being falsified into ‘goodness,’ anxious baseness into ‘humility,’ submission before those one hates to ‘obedience’ (of course, obedience to the one who, they say, commands this submission—they call him God). The inoffensiveness of the weak man—cowardice itself, in which he is rich, his standing at the door, his inevitable need to wait around—here acquires a good name, like ‘patience,’ and is called virtue itself. That incapacity for revenge is called the lack of desire for revenge, perhaps even forgiveness (‘for they know not what they do—only we know what they do!’). And people are talking about ‘love for one’s enemies’—and sweating as they say it.
—Keep talking!
—“They are miserable—there’s no doubt about that—all these rumour-mongers and counterfeiters in the corners, although huddled down beside each other in the warmth—but they are telling me that their misery is God’s choice, His sign. One beats the dog one loves the most. Perhaps this misery may be a preparation, a test, an education, perhaps it is even more—something that will one day be rewarded and paid out with huge interest in gold, no, in happiness. They call that ‘blessedness’.”
—Go on!
—“Now they are letting me know that they are not only better than the powerful, the masters of the earth, whose spit they have to lick (*not* out of fear, certainly not out of fear, but because God commands that they honour all those in authority)—they are not only better than these, but they also are ‘better off,’ or at any rate will one day have it better. But enough! Enough! I can’t take it any more. Bad air! Bad air!”

>>23621853
>No matter what we have done, God will receive us with joy if we turn our hearts to him.
" Over the gateway into the Christian paradise and its “eternal blessedness” it would, in any event, be more fitting to let the inscription stand “Eternal *hate* also created me”—provided it’s all right to set a truth over the gateway to a lie! For what is the bliss of that paradise? . . . Perhaps we might have guessed that already, but it is better for it to be expressly described for us by an authority we cannot underestimate in such matters, *Thomas Aquinas*, the great teacher and saint: “In the kingdom of heaven” he says as gently as a lamb, “the blessed will see the punishment of the damned, so *that they will derive all the more pleasure from their heavenly bliss*.” Or do you want to hear that message in a stronger tone, something from the mouth of a triumphant father of the church, who warns his Christians against the cruel sensuality of the public spectacles. But why? “Faith, in fact, offers much more to us,” he says (in de Spectaculis, c. 29 ff), “something much stronger. Thanks to the redemption, very different joys are ours to command; in place of the athletes, we have our martyrs. If we want blood, well, we have the blood of Christ . . . But what awaits us on the day of his coming again, his triumph!”—and now he takes off, the rapturous visionary: “However there are other spectacles—that last eternal day of judgment, ignored by nations, derided by them, when the accumulation of the years and all the many things which they produced will be burned in a single fire. What a broad spectacle then appears! *How I will be lost in admiration! How I will laugh! How I will rejoice!* I will be full of exaltation then as I see so many great kings who by public report were accepted into heaven groaning in the deepest darkness with Jove himself and alongside those very men who testified on their behalf! They will include governors of provinces who persecuted the name of our Lord burning in flames more fierce than those with which they proudly raged against the Christians! And those wise philosophers who earlier convinced their disciples that God was irrelevant and who claimed either that there is no such thing as a soul or that our souls would not return to their original bodies will be ashamed as they burn in the conflagration with those very disciples! And the poets will be there, shaking with fear, not in front of the tribunal of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the Christ they did not anticipate! Then it will be easier to hear the tragic actors, because their voices will be more resonant in their own calamity” (better voices since they will be screaming in greater terror)."

>>23621905
Continuation of Nietzsche quoting St. Thomas Aquinas:

" “The actors will then be easier to recognize, for the fire will make them much more agile. Then the charioteer will be on show, all red in a wheel of fire, and the athletes will be visible, thrown, not in the gymnasium, but in the fire, unless I have no wish to look at their bodies then, so that I can more readily cast an *insatiable* gaze on those who raged against our Lord. ‘This is the man,’ I will say, ‘the son of a workman or a prostitute’” (in everything that follows and especially in the well-known description of the mother of Jesus from the Talamud, Tertullian from this point on is referring to the Jews) “the destroyer of the Sabbath, the Samaritan possessed by the devil. He is the man whom you brought from Judas, the man who was beaten with a reed and with fists, reviled with spit, who was given gall and vinegar to drink. He is the man whom his disciples took away in secret, so that it could be said that he was resurrected, or whom the gardener took away, so that the crowd of visitors would not harm his lettuce.’ What praetor or consul or quaestor or priest will from his own generosity grant this to you so that you may see such sights, *so that you can exult in such things*? And yet we already have these things to a certain extent *through faith*, represented to us by the imagining spirit. Besides, what sorts of things has the eye not seen or the ear not heard and what sorts of things have not arisen in the human heart?” (1. Cor. 2, 9). “I believe these are more pleasing than the race track and the circus and both enclosures” (first and fourth tier of seats or, according to others, the comic and tragic stages). *Through faith*: that’s how it’s written."

>>23621823
Well, then that is an impassé, because I doubt anyone is willing to submit to your pretensions of a singular christianity.
Now, to my argument, I clearly did not communicate very well.
>attempt to induce an emotional response
I just enjoy lofty and flamboyant rhetoric.

>1. Christian religious experiences are illusory. Spiritual healing never occurs.
That's not what I was saying. I was specifically saying that there is no healing because the body and conditions do not change. Nothing is actually healing, it's only the illusion of healing. The weak do not stop being weak, with or without god, they are just tricked into thinking otherwise.

>religious experiences are a real psychological phenomenon.
I never denied this. Religion can be the impulse of many many things.

>Unfortunate people, such as the poor, sick, or enslaved, ought to be despised. But Christianity teaches that they ought not to be, that in fact they can be superior to the rich and masters.
No, Christianity just gives the weak a coping mechanism where-in the weak can remain weak and wallow in their weakness, perhaps even villify the very concept of strength. Nietzche says the Jews essentially did this. My problem with christianity is not that it empowers slaves (which it does not), it does the opposite. It gives them hope , makes them content with their slavery, deludes them into thinking that they are superior the master while not being so in reality. Same with the pauper and the sick man. It may even further fuel their descent towards infirmity and ruin.

>Christianity induces sanctimoniousness.
I admit I may have overstepped a little bit with this one. Maybe it does not induce sanctimoniousness as much as it naturally attracts the sanctimonious (Like all strict over-arching moralities). But I do agree it's kind of a moot-point.

>Christianity is a liberation from the self hatred brought on by the strict observance of the Jewish law.
It is a strange definition of liberation, exchanging the Halakha for asceticism and self-mortification. The Jew in perpetual transgression of God's law easily transitions into fallen man steeped in eternal sin. And while what you say about Scrupulosity is very interesting. I do believe that even historical and mainstream Catholic views (Which I am adressing specifically because it is the only denomination you recognize) promote to some extent self-loathing, self-denial, and self-hatred.
Quoting Luke 9:23
>And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; for he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall save it. 25For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, and cast away himself?
Cont'd.

>>23621915
>Continuation of Nietzsche quoting Tertullian
typo

>>23621936
Saint Augustine of Hippo, too:
>It is not enough for a man to change his ways for the better and to give up the practice of evil, unless by painful penance, sorrowing humility, the sacrifice of a contrite heart and the giving of alms he makes amends to God for all that he has done wrong

And many catholic saints, too practiced mortification. Maybe that was what Nietzsche was talking about here >>23619764. Mortifications, lashes, hairshirts, Stigmata, etc.

I'll keep posting excerpts as I find them.
>To put off, according to former conversation, the old man, who is corrupted according to the desire of error. 23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind: 24And put on the new man, who according to God is created in justice and holiness of truth.
Ephesians 4:22-24

I found this website to be useful for finding evidence of this: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-self-denial-is-part-of-lent
I'm not in mt A-game anymore.

>>23621936
>Nietzche says the Jews essentially did this.
To themselves. I'm not blaming the Jews out of nowhere.
And for the record, whenever I say "The slave" I also mean the sick, the poor, etc. I got too caught up in my analogy.

>>23622045
Well the whole point in posting the self-mortification thing is that I believe that is evdience of a certain level of self-hatred for being human. Even lay people are told to mortify (even if in minor ways) to harrow the sin inhrent in them.
If I am not mistaken, Sin is always bad/evil in christianity. Sin is also viewed as an inherent part of fallen man, imbedded within him. It then follows that Man has a part within himself that is inherently bad/Evil. I believe this belief could be classed as self hatred.

>>23610640
I can somewhat recognize demonic inspiration from time to time and it's relatively clear Nietzsche was inspired by a demon; could be wrong but yeah it seems obvious to me.

>>23622074
Why? What are the signs? I want to be able to tell if I encounter stuff like that in the future.

>>23622074
>it's relatively clear Nietzsche was inspired by a demon
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demon#Etymology_1
"δαίμων (daímōn, “dispenser, god, protective spirit”"

Seems legit.

>>23614518
There is nothing about philosophy in general that makes it a "swindle"
You cannot get out of philosophy

>>23621893
You took one passage out of context. Yes, it's true that married people are less likely to be spiritual. No that does not mean all people are called to celibacy. St. Paul explicitly advises those who can't handle a celibate lifestyle to marry. You don't get to deviate from the interpretation given by the authority of the Catholic Church. I don't care what small sects of heretics think or thought. I'm not repeating this tiresome argument with you anymore.
>>23621895
More misrepresentations stirred up by emotional rhetoric.

Cowardice and effeminacy are actually condemned numerous times in scripture.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Apocalypse 21:8).
Notice how this quote says nothing about the "powerful" going to Hell, because despite your tiresome repetitive slanders such a concept is completely foreign to Christianity.

Self defence is also justified from a Christian perspective. This is the highest Christian authority, the Pope (Pius X):
>It is lawful to kill when fighting in a just war; when carrying out by order of the Supreme Authority a sentence of death in punishment of a crime; and, finally, in cases of necessary and lawful defense of one's own life against an unjust aggressor.

As to taking oppression from the powerful like a bitch, well, St. Thomas Aquinas, doctor of the Church, argued that tyrannicide is actually justifiable under certain circumstances. He said: "He who kills a tyrant to free his country is praised and rewarded." He based his arguments on the Christian belief in the death penalty and in just war theory.

Finally your base worship of the powerful is just weird. Obviously there is a correlation between those who are in power and those who deserve to be. St. Thomas says that some men are natural rulers and some are natural slaves on account of differences in intelligence. As long as some people are more intelligent and better suited for ruling than others there will always be hierarchy. But even though the correlation exists, it is not an absolute correlation, and there could be tyrants or people who are in power unjustly. Power is not a good in and of itself, it is something that must be subjected to the good. It is also extremely undignified to be kissing the feet of those who are in power as you do. Pay due respects, sure, but be a fucking man and have some self respect.
>>23621936
>>23622045
Well I don't define self denial as self hatred. There are the appetitive and rational aspects to man. To eat loads of sugary foods, to drink loads of alcohol, to engage in sexual immorality, to be hysterical and let your emotions rule you -- all of this is contrary to virtue. This virtue is what Christians attempt to inculcate in themselves by ascetic practices. This is what is meant by self denial. To subject the appetite

>>23616584
Christianity teaches indeed that this life is worthless. That's why priests were so willing to allow themselves to be killed and die as martyrs in Japan. This weakness was then exploited by killing the converts instead of the priests, eho were willing yo put a thousand souls to hell if it meant saving themselves. This world is Satan's, after all.

>>23621936
>>23622045
>>23622165
Continuation of my last post.

For example, I'm addicted to social media/technology. This is against what I actually want, but my appetite is too strong. So last Lent I sacrificed all forms of social media as an act of self-denial. This helped me read more, think more clearly, etc..

Also there are unseen spiritual vices. What people call your mindset. Doing g ascetic practices helps to cure these. When you pray you focus on God, who is the ultimate Good. This gives you a spiritual and mental illumination.

It's not meant to be about self hatred. If that stuff exists it's a perversion.

>>23622165
In short, according to you, christianity does not actually demand anything from everyone. It does not even preach forgiveness, it preaches killing people you dislike under dupious claims of tyranny. It is, in essence, just the spirit of the revolutionaries who would ultimately displace it.

Honestly, imagine needing any Germanoid to tell you desert fairy tales are made-up crap for low IQ hoi polloi lol.

>>23622074
Okay, and? He was probably a more noble spirit than that jew Christ anyways.

>>23622194
>Christianity teaches indeed that this life is worthless.
No, it doesn't. Keep your retarded uninformed atheishart opinions to yourself.

>>23610640
I am the antichrist
It's what I was meant to be
Your God left me behind
And set my soul to be free

I am the antichrist
All love is lost
Insanity is what I am
Eternally, my soul will rot

>>23622165
>Yes, it's true that married people are less likely to be spiritual.
"do not care for the things that belong to the Lord" == "akshually, they care"

uh-huh.

>Cowardice and effeminacy are actually condemned
And as we have already established, your text doesn't shy away from giving contradictory instructions. After all, its goal is to make you feel like shit, so that you would beg Sky-Daddy for temporary pain-killers. Just pray and the world will revolve around you, yes-yes.

>the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
"And from no one do I want beauty so much as from thee, thou powerful one: let thy goodness be thy last self-conquest.
All evil do I accredit to thee: *therefore* do I desire of thee the good.
Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings, who think themselves good because they have crippled paws!"

>St. Thomas Aquinas, doctor of the Church, argued that tyrannicide is actually justifiable under certain circumstances
Right-right, and gloating over people's sufferings >>23621905 is also totally fine. "the blessed will see the punishment of the damned, so that they will derive all the more pleasure from their heavenly bliss". The Doctor of the Church has graciously allowed you.
>More misrepresentations stirred up by emotional rhetoric.
Right-right, totally not this >>23621895 picture. "That incapacity for revenge is called the lack of desire for revenge, perhaps even forgiveness <...> And people are talking about ‘love for one’s enemies’—and sweating as they say it."

>Power is not a good in and of itself,
>tyrannicide is justifiable under certain circumstances
"But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
They are people of bad race and lineage; out of their countenances peer the hangman and the sleuth-hound.
Distrust all those who talk much of their justice! Verily, in their souls not only honey is lacking.
And when they call themselves “the good and just,” forget not, that for them to be Pharisees, nothing is lacking but—power!"

>>23622207
Thanks, you have proven with this post that you are not interested in the Truth. As though the justification of tyrannicide by St. Thomas implies "Christianity demands nothing from anyone" or "Christianity does not preach forgiveness". You're not even interested in understanding what Christianity is, only in critiquing and seething. You've never read St. Thomas or any of the Fathers. Just keep reading your demonic Nietzsche, I won't toss my pearls to you swine anymore.

>>23622218
I'm not an atheist. And it does. Getting killed ehile on your way to church is the ideal way for a christian to go. Because the goal is not in this world, it is in the afterlife of heaven. That's why most modern christians, who have never actually faced any major tribulation in theit lives, say that the japanese converts should have all allowed themselves to be killed instead of apostatizing. Some more retarded christians say that they should have taken up the sword and commited murder against their oppressors. They want to leave this world.

>>23622228
See: >>23622233
Didn't even read your spite filled post. You hate the Truth, and our most blessed Lord Jesus Christ, so writhe in your demonic filth. Spent too much time trying to engage with you hard hearted people, I'm signing off.

>>23622235
Are you functionally retarded? Standing for something to the death by not renouncing or giving up your beliefs is not the same as wanting to die. That's like saying I wanted to be killed because I r3fused to give a robber my wallet. No you don't have the right to my wallet, I have every right not to give you it. And the Faith is worth infinitely more than a wallet.

>>23622233
Christians are not interested in understanding their own religion anyway. They change and mutate it to fit their wills. For you, its about killing people who you think are oppressing you. For you, christianity permits murder and war. I'm not even a nietzschean. I just think most christians are very narrow minded and only follow their religion because it gives them pleasure.

>>23622246
It is practically the same and shows that christianity does not place much value on life in this world. People who value life in this world more than the afterlife are simply not very good christians

>>23622233
Jesus loved Satan so much that Satan had to kill him. God needed this to happen to satisfy his need to expand, endlessly.

>>23622235
You might as well be, you're no different than them.

The world would be better if every one of you faggot losers killed yourselves. You never even know what you criticize, just spout retarded inane atheist faggot bullshit. Kill yourself loser.

There was only one Nietzschean and he died of a brain tumor.

>>23622253
There's no "after" life. Jesus was talking about realizing this so people stop turning Kirbys Dreamland into the Nightmare Before Christmas, with their stupid fighting over nothing.

>>23622255
"The world would be better if every one of you faggot losers killed yourselves. You never even know what you criticize, just spout retarded inane atheist faggot bullshit. Kill yourself loser."

Behold! The testament of the Gospels, the Word of the benevolent messiah, Jesus Christ!

>>23622255
>You might as well be, you're no different than them.
If that helps you then fine, but something tells me that it doesn't because atheists clearly drive you mad with frothing rage. Did Jesus also tell you to wish death upon the unbelievers? Rhetorical question; he did not, and yet you are acting like Tertullian who cums in his pants at the thought of all the philosophers, skeptics, and other non believers burning in hell.
Shame, because contemot for this world is probably the best thing christianity has going for it, but tradlarpers vehemently deny this because some german pointed it out once.

>>23622277
True Christians have no contempt for this world. That's a misapprehension. Jesus walked through this world and departed from it in perfect Love, contempt was foreign to his being.

>>23622282
Indeed, but you would not want to dally here. The goal is not this world but the one to come. There is a certain amount of contempt to that, a kind of anti-worldliness. Besides, you're not Christ.

>>23622282
>Jesus walked through this world and departed from it in perfect Love, contempt was foreign to his being
"*The instinct of hatred for reality*: the consequence of an extreme oversensitivity and capacity for suffering that does not want to be 'touched' at all because it feels every contact too acutely.

*The instinctive exclusion of all aversion, all hostility, all boundaries and distances in feelings*: the consequence of an extreme over-sensitivity and capacity for suffering that perceives every reluctance, every needing-to-be-reluctant as itself an unbearable *pain* (which is to say *harmful, proscribed* by the instinct of self-preservation) and only experiences bliss (pleasure) ,when it stops resisting everyone and anything, including evil, - love as the only, the *final* possibility for life ...

These are the two *physiological realities* on which, out of which, the doctrine of redemption has grown. I call it a subsequent and refined development of hedonism on a thoroughly morbid foundation. Its closest relation is Epicureanism, paganism's doctrine of redemption, although Epicureanism has a strong dose of Greek vitality and nerves. Epicurus is a *typical* decadent: I was the first to recognize this. -The fear of pain, even of infinitesimal amounts of pain - this could end up *only* as a *religion of love* ..."

>>23622292
Theres no world to come. This is it.
And no, i already told you, I am le antichrist

>>23622295
Nietzsche wrote all that shit then went fuckin insane babbling to himself in the woods living like Quasimodo.
I like Nietzsche BTW. Forgive me, though, if I don't treat his word as law, especially regarding figures like Christ.

>>23622305
>Nietzsche wrote all that shit then went fuckin insane
Considering, that Nietzsche's father (a christian pastor) passed away in his early 30s from the very same symptoms, it's quite amazing that Nietzsche managed to last much longer.

>>23622165
> all of this is contrary to virtue.
Because it's detrimental to health, not because of Sin. What I'm trying to say is that this whole notion of man being inherently sinful, of bad being imbedded inside man, is a form of self-hatred. Of which extreme and moderate forms of asceticism and mortification are a product. As I think the Augustine quote Illustrates. I found another quote by Padre Pio which I couldn't actually source so I won't post it, but it's of the same sentiment, if a bit more graphic.
Evidently, I did not do it very well.
>>23622261
You are correct, but this is not the own you think it is.
After all, Nietzscheans don't actually worship Nietzsche as a god. A few treat him like a prophet, admittedly. The two positions are not particularly equivalent.
>>23622200
>It's not meant to be about self hatred. If that stuff exists it's a perversion.
The line certainly blurs at times, then. A few catholic saints regularly lashed themselves, wore Sackcloth, had self inflicted stigmata (Even Francis of Assisi), etc.

>>23622341
You can call it sin or you can call it karma, but either way, it's bad, and engenders harm. Recognizing the darkness and the light within is not about self hatred. It is just awareness.

>>23610640
>How can you still follow Christianity and the Christian "God" after reading this?
Easy, I don't agree with him. Do you think that reading something makes it correct?
>How do you justify yourself?
I don't. I have better things to spend my time on. Like shit posting on 4chan.

>>23622361
Unhealthy things are not imbedded within you, you aren't inherently forced to be unhealthy (Or maybe you are idk).
Sin implies that the tragedy is your fault, you did this to yourself, you are evil, you need to make up this evil by self-mortification, asceticism, lashing, Prayer, etc.

>>23622412
Not only did you commit this evil to yourself, you were pre-destined and born to do it. Original sin.

>>23622412
The oldest usages of the word "sin," just mean something like failure, or error. Nobody is saying we made ourselves this way. It is saying that we didn't, and it's therefore imperative to gain awareness so as to minimize suffering, harm; failure.

>>23622434
It seems to be widely understood among christians that man is an inheretly sinful creature pre-disposed to sin.

>>23622446
I agree. But the ignorance of many people has no bearing on whats true, or whats trying to be say. Jesus was not saying that one ought to hate one's self for their failures or have a cynical view of man. Just to see life in its fullness.

>>23617084
> le Scourge of the Almighty
> treatment by administration of the right biochemical
Oh no no no

>>23622541
>implying medical science is outside the grasp of the power of God
Seriously, how retarded are you? If you got treatment, then God took mercy on you and allowed that treatment to happen.

>>23610640
They try to tear down religions without replacing it with a better system. Most people can’t handle a high level of freedom. They need constraints. The nefarious want the many to slide into degeneracy in order to control and enslave them. The ancients knew passions rule over a man, hence why it is important to keep those things in check. One problem with modern Christianity is similar to end stage Roman religion - more mystical and theology than moral character building.

>>23622305
Wouldn't Nietzsche be exceptionally blessed for having been so sickly?

>>23622796
>They try to tear down religions without replacing it with a better system.
"The Germans have robbed Europe of the last great cultural harvest that it still could have brought home, - the Renaissance. Do people finally understand, do they want to understand what the Renaissance was? The revaluation of all Christian values, an attempt using all means, all instincts, all genius, to allow the *opposite* values, *noble* values to triumph <...>. Attacking at the decisive spot, at the seat of Christianity itself, putting *noble* values on the throne, I mean into the instincts, *inside* the most basic needs and desires of the people sitting there... I have a vision of a *possibility*, one that has a perfect, super-terrestrial magic and multi-coloured charm: - it seems to shimmer with all the tremors of refined beauty, it seems that an art is at work in it, so divine, so diabolically divine that you will look in vain through millennia for a second possibility like this; I see a spectacle so ingenious and at the same time so wonderfully paradoxical that it would have given all the Olympic gods cause for immortal laughter - *Cesare Borgia as Pope*... Do you understand me? ... Well then, *that* would have been the victory that I am the only one demanding these days"

>>23611963
but it isn't allegorical. The entire basis of Christianity revolves around Christs death and ressurection: Christ defeats death. The fact he thinks it's allegorical or interprets it as purely allegorical is about as 'tips fedora' as you can get.

>>23622796
>Most people can’t handle a high level of freedom. They need constraints

"A species arises, a type becomes established and strong, under the long struggle with essentially unchanging, unfavourable conditions. By contrast, we know from the experience of breeders that species which receive an ultra-abundant nourishment and, in general, an increase in protection and care immediately tend towards variety in the type in the strongest manner and are rich in wonders and monstrosities (as well as monstrous vices). Now, let’s look for a moment at an aristocratic commonwealth, for example, an ancient Greek polis [city state] or Venice, as an organization, whether voluntary or involuntary, for the purpose of *breeding*. There are men there living together who rely upon themselves and who want their species to succeed mainly because it has to succeed or run the fearful risk of being annihilated. Here there is a lack of that advantage, that abundance, that protection under which variations are encouraged. The species senses the need for itself as a species, as something which, particularly thanks to its hardness, uniformity, simplicity of form, can generally succeed and enable itself to keep going in the constant struggles with neighbours or with the rebellious oppressed people
<...>
Finally, however, at some point a fortunate time arises, which lets the immense tension ease. Perhaps there are no more enemies among the neighbours, and the means for living, even for enjoying life, are there in abundance. With one blow the bond and the compulsion of the old discipline are torn apart: that discipline no longer registers as necessary, as a condition of existence—if it wished to remain in existence, it could do so only as a form of *luxury*, as an archaic *taste*. Variation, whether as something abnormal (something higher, finer, rarer) or as degeneration and monstrosity, suddenly bursts onto the scene in the greatest abundance and splendour;
<...>
The dangerous and disturbing point is reached where the greater, more multifaceted, and more comprehensive life lives over and above the old morality; the “individual” stands there, forced to give himself his own laws, his own arts and tricks for self-preservation, self-raising, self-redemption. Nothing but new what-for’s, nothing but new how-to’s, no common formula any more, misunderstanding and contempt bound up together, decay, spoilage, <...> Once again there’s danger there, the mother of morality, great danger, this time transferred into the individual, <...>. What will the moral philosophers who emerge at such a time now have to preach? <...> that everything around them is going rotten and spreading corruption, that nothing lasts until the day after tomorrow, except for one kind of person, the incurably mediocre. Only the mediocre have the prospect of succeeding, of reproducing themselves—they are the people of the future, the only survivors, “Be like them! Become mediocre!” "

>>23622877
>The entire basis of Christianity revolves around Christs death and ressurection: Christ defeats death.
>'tips fedora'
"At this point I set up the *Dionysus* of the Greeks: the religious affirmation of Life, of the whole of Life, not of denied and partial Life (it is typical that in this cult the sexual act awakens ideas of depth, mystery, and reverence).

Dionysus versus "the Crucified One"; here you have the contrast. It is *not* a difference in regard to the martyrdom,—but the latter has a different meaning. Life itself—Life's eternal fruitfulness and recurrence caused anguish, destruction, and the will to annihilation. In the other case, the suffering of the "Christ as the Innocent One" stands as an objection against Life, it is the formula of Life's condemnation.—Readers will guess that the problem concerns the meaning of suffering; whether a Christian or a tragic meaning be given to it. In the first case it is the road to a holy mode of existence; in the second case *existence itself is regarded as sufficiently holy* to justify an enormous amount of suffering. The tragic man says yea even to the most excruciating suffering: he is sufficiently strong, rich, and capable of deifying, to be able to do this; the Christian denies even the happy lots on earth: he is weak, poor, and disinherited enough to suffer from life in any form. God on the Cross is a curse upon Life, a signpost directing people to deliver themselves from it;—Dionysus cut into pieces is a *promise* of Life: it will be for ever born anew, and rise afresh from destruction."

>>23622943
So yeah this exerpt proves that Nietzsche doesn't undertand Christian doctrine. You just proved my point.

>>23623013
>this exerpt proves that a person nicknamed "Little Pastor" in childhood for memorizing bible by heart doesn't undertand Christian doctrine
>this exerpt proves that a person who became a philology professor at 23 y.o. for his meticulousness in text-analysis can't read a fucking book

" “I dislike him.”—Why?—“I’m no match for him.”—Has a human being ever answered in this way? "