funny that all these nu-atheist clowns like dawkins and harris publish books against religion and yet, the book that best proves the farce of christianity is simply "how jesus became god" by bart d. ehrman, it just gets to the heart of it using nothing but factual history
>>23612708Someone should check his early life just to make sure
>>23612798He's an ex evangelical
>>23612831Yeah, no wonder he turned against Christianity. Evangelicals be cray cray.
>>23612708Refuted by Brant Pitre, who made Ehrman admit that Mark's Jesus made a divinity claim.
>>23612837You're low IQ if you were religious and came from a religious family (especially prots) to begin with which is why the most evangelical atheists use moralizing to make their points like Dillahunty. His dad was a preacher. Noooo you can't hate le fags thats immoral! Them turning against Christianity doesn't mean anything. They're still the same low IQ retards raised by it and still propagate its slave morality with the action figures removed. It's not no wonder either. These people didn't suddenly realize it. They wanted to LE SEX found LE GOD got in the way and had the realization that WOAH WHAT IF NO GOD and what followed was some convoluted cope moral system and heckin historical analysis midwitry words words words. I could verbally bully both of these authors to the point of suicide if I met them in person. Ugly bald fat disgusting fucks one of whom fucks men. YWNBAA.
>>23612922>words words wordslol look in a mirror Mr. "Verbal Bully"
>>23612922>believing in IQ in twenty twenty four year of our lord
>>23612957>appeal to hypocrisyUtter midwit and a dishonest one at that because even your logical fallacy is flawed. I blew them the fuck out of orbit with a single post below the character limit without convoluted cope so it's not even accurate appeal to hypocrisy. These wordsmiths spend their whole lives with convoluted cases for whatever point they're trying to make.>The Gospel Text of Didymus (1985)Word.>Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (1999)Words.>Misquoting Jesus (2005)Words words.>Jesus, Interrupted (2009)Words words words.>Forged (2011)Words words words words.>How Jesus Became God (2014)Words words words words words.>The Triumph of Christianity (2018)Words words words words words words.>Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife (2020)Words words words words words words words.Meaningless time wasting drivel just like Christianity is. The author is fat, ugly, coping has NOTHING else going for him, found that churning out some shit made him le famous and makes him heckin socially validated ($$$$$) and gives him some scraps of pussy to run through. He's the same dumb retard that fell for it in the first place and actually believes he's doing a heckin righteousness still. I can tell people with his background are worthless. I can tell just by the way he looks he's worthless. Wording up his shit doesn't mean he has anything worthwhile to say.
>>23612708The Golden Bough eviscerated Christianity like 130 years ago. It's just like any other religion, primitive magical thinking and a very early and error ridden mode of trying to understand things. Modern adults have moved on from these failed philosophies.
>>23612831all the big atheists are ex-evangelicals, it's not a coincidence, evangelical christianity is a disgrace, if you are a christian you should be more worried about evangelism than anything else
>>23612849The gospel of mark is adopitionist, that is, Jesus is a normal man untill he becomes "begotten" at the time of his baptism, the other two gospels (matthew and luke, all written about 15 to 20 years later) came up with the virgin birth story to try to deal with this problem
>>23612708>Ehrman's arguments are meticulously supported with citations from the Gospels and the Epistles. His critics will be quick to point out that whenever Scriptural passages contradict his thesis – such as quotes attributed to Jesus claiming 'I and the Father are one' – Ehrman simply says those passages are embellishments or fabrications.Wow! Trinitarian Christianity resigned!>>23612959Off topic but even wikipedia, which is terribly biased on intelligence research, and the left-leaning APA, will both tell you the consensus is that general intelligence is real, meaningful, best modelled with the g factor, and best measured with IQ
>>23612922My dad was a protestant minister.Everyone believing in all the shit in the Bible and nobody knowing what the fuck it actually was gave me one or two convictions:>someone is wrong>nobody knows what the fuck they're talking aboutAfter extensive research I can assert that the Bible is an relatively ordinary document mostly written by people that witnessed extraordinary things. The ancients had no idea what the fuck they were looking at, God, angel, or Jesus. They were just peasants.
>>23612708Christianity still endures; its oldest churchly institutions stand even with a firmness that makes desperate cowards of many toilers for State-culture. That a heartfelt, truly blest relation to Christ's precepts exists among the generality of present Christians, is certainly not so easy to aver. The educated doubts, the common man despairs. Science makes God the Creator more impossible each day; but from the beginning of the Church the God revealed to us by Jesus has been converted by the Theologians from a most sublime reality into an ever less intelligible problem. That the God of our Saviour should have been identified with the tribal god of Israel, is one of the most terrible confusions in all world-history; it has avenged itself in every age, and avenges itself to-day by the more and more outspoken atheism of the coarsest, as the finest minds. We have lived to see the Christian God condemned to empty churches, while ever more imposing temples are reared among us to Jehova. And it almost seems right that Jehova at last should quite suppress the God so monstrously mistakenly derived from him. If Jesus is proclaimed Jehova's son, then every Jewish rabbi can triumphantly confute all Christian theology, as has happened indeed in every age. What a melancholy, what a discreditable plight, is that of our whole Theology, maintained to give our doctors of the church and popular preachers little else than the guidance to an insincere interpretation of the truths contained in our priceless Gospels! To what is the preacher bound fast in the pulpit, but to compromises between the utmost contradictions, whose subtleties must necessarily confound our very faith itself and make us ask: Who now knows Jesus? Historical criticism, perchance? It casts in its lot with Judaism, and, just like every Jew, it wonders that the bells on Sunday morn should still be ringing for a Jew once crucified two thousand years ago. [Reference to 113th aphorism of Human, All too Human] How often and minutely have the Gospels been critically searched, their origin and compilation exposed beyond a doubt; so that one might have thought the very evidence of the spuriousness and irrelevance of their contradictory matter would at last have opened the eyes of Criticism to the lofty figure of the Redeemer and his work. But the God whom Jesus revealed to us; the God no god, no sage or hero of the world, had known before; the God who, amid Pharisees, Scribes and sacrificial Priests, made himself known to poor Galilean shepherds and fishermen with such soul-compelling power and simplicity that whoso once had recognised him, beheld the world and all its goods as null; this God who never more can be revealed, since this first time was He revealed to us for ever:—this God the critic always views with fresh distrust, because he feels obliged to take Him for the maker of the Jewish world, Jehova!
>>23613145
>>23613152Lovecraft, the man who wrote horror pulp and became a bleeding heart liberal when he married a Jewish woman, is someone whose opinion on anything at all in life should not be taken seriously.
>>23613166the christian, as always, appealing to ad hominem
>>23612922That’s literally the entire modern west. Following most of Christian morality except the parts about sex while LARPing as secular or atheist.
>>23613180Ok but why does the insane ramblings of one of the most overrated authors of the 20th century who dedicated his life to write plebeian reddit-tier slop should even be part of this whole conversation
>>23613206>plebeian reddit-tier slopsome of his novellas are good
>>23613076That's still a divinity claim, just goalpost shifting and retreating to some other unsubstantiated interpretation that cedes the original ground of OP.
>>23613152>le spooky outer space crab I'm going insaneThanks wojaktard, I think I'll stick with Wagner and Mozart.
>>23613202>implying the "Christians" on this board are any different
>>23612708All Bart does is summarize existing scholarship for an audience of retards and casuals, act like a genius, and give ammo to brain dead Reddit atheists who can't read. He's better than the nu-atheists granted, but not by a wide margin. He's just as intellectually empty as the Evangelicals he grew up with. He just copped out and switched his affiliation to secular humanism while carrying the same slavific intellectually dead attitude. Most actual Christians today don't really believe Jesus was a literal God, except maybe Catholics. Every Protestant you meet is now some kind of pantheist Deleuzian or a religious humanist who sees Christianity as just a cute cultural spiritual tradition that shouldn't be taken too seriously and don't really care if the Bible is accurate or if God really exists or not.
>>23613523>Most actual Christians today don't really believe Jesus was a literal GodYes they do? That's literally the entire point of Christianity.>Every Protestant you meet is now some kind of pantheist Deleuzian or a religious humanist who sees Christianity as just a cute cultural spiritual tradition that shouldn't be taken too seriously and don't really care if the Bible is accurate or if God really exists or not.This only describes maybe Unitarian Universalists and they aren't even Christians to begin with.
>>23613523I thought it was obvious that Ehrman was simply a populariser of biblical studiesDoes he really act as if he were the one to come up with all of this stuff? That's shameful if he does
>>23613166>t.jew
>>23613534Idk but whenever I run into regular Protestants, none of them will straight up say Jesus was literally God. Catholics and Evangelicals do but many of mainstream Protestants don't take it seriously unless they are church people invested in the doxa of whatever church they run. Theologically minded people I talk to are virtually all Deleuzefags and pantheists or followers of Tillich or lukewarm Christians who don't care much about metaphysics or the authenticity of scripture.
>>23613534You underestimate how radical theological liberalism (i.e. mainline protestantism) is.
>>23613550You have to make a difference between what individuals who profess to be part of a church personally say vs what the churches themselves profess. I will say that in terms of demographics mainline Protestants are getting hit with disaffiliations harder than Catholics and Evangelicals probably BECAUSE they're so lax. If nothing matters and you only go to church twice a year to hear hokum easter and nativity narratives, it won't even affect you that much if you just become an atheist altogether. This is why atheists in Catholic and Orthodox countries are almost always devoted Marxists trying to actually establish Marxism against the mainstream society whereas Protestant country atheists are always neoliberal fags who want society to basically be exactly the same but with looser standards on sex and creature comforts.
>>23612708Christianity is fake and gay
>>23613573I doubt disaffiliation has anything to do with sect. The modern Western worldview sees the universe as a big mechanical model made up of physical stuff and laws of nature which explains how that physical stuff works. Christian theologians embraced arguments for God based on design or conceived as God as a first cause. In other words, they tried to explain God as something entity or force that exists within a Newtonian model of the universe just like gravity, ostensibly to show Christianity was capable of being rational and scientific. So now physicists are able to explain the mechanical structure of the universe without reference to a Godlike entity, Christianity has begun to fall apart as that first cause/designer is now unnecessary. So Catholics turn into atheists while Protestants dilute their concept of God to more and more impersonal and abstract ideas like God is just a metaphor or weak theology or whatever. That means they can adapt to a secular world, but they are basically not even traditional Christians anymore, just Christian themed humanists with progressive values. Christianity would have fared better if mysticism prevailed over rationalist theology as it did among Jews.
>>23612837>Evangelicals be cray crayGet the fuck off this board nigger what are doing here? Where are you from? Go back
>>23613180It's a generic critique of Christianity that poorly rips off Nietzsche. In the modern world, it's a critique you will see a million times among a million different individuals. Having it come from Lovecraft is a needless appeal to authority, and a very pubescent authority at that. Not to mention the fact that Christians already have responses to these generic opinions so it comes to naught. There's no ebin maymay BTFO'ing of Christianity, and the attempt to make it that is just artificial and forced, as if it were made by a teenager who is more concerned with appealing to his ephemeral 4chan group-think than making something genuinely funny. I cannot stress how unfunny that meme is.
>>23613588Toddler brained
>>23613523>Most actual Christians today don't really believe Jesus was a literal GodImagine being this disconnected from reality
>>23613550How does it even make sense that Jesus died for our sins and is the son of God if he is not also God? You must be talking to people who are atheists but not bold enough to disown Christianity.
>>23613724Christianity is an illusion
>>23613523>All Bart does is summarize existing scholarship for an audience of retards and casuals,and what's wrong with that? biblical scholarship destroys all of christianities claims but your average church goer has no clue about it, It is a good thing that he puts it in easy language.Most people have no clue that none of the 4 gospels are written by a eye-witness, that paul has a completely different theology, and that john is the only gospel were jesus claims to be God.
>>23613821>Most people have no clue that none of the 4 gospels are written by a eye-witness, that paul has a completely different theology, and that john is the only gospel were jesus claims to be God.None of this is true and the Biblical scholarship done by actual Christians refutes it. Why should Christians take atheists seriously knowing they have an axe to grind against the Church?Pic related, if you want a properly Christian approach to the Gospels, read Ratzinger.
>>23613824> if you want a properly Christian approach to the Gospels, read a pedophile!your average catholic
>>23613758>and is the son of God if he is not also God?Are you even reading what you're typing? How can God also be his son? A father can't be his own offspring.
""John Dominic Crossan has made the rather infamous suggestion that Jesus’s body was not raised from the dead but was eaten by dogs. When I first heard this suggestion, I was no longer a Christian and so was not religiously outraged, but I did think it was excessive and sensationalist. But that was before I did any real research on the matter. My view now is that we do not know, and cannot know, what actually happened to Jesus’s body. But it is absolutely true that as far as we can tell from all the surviving evidence, what normally happened to a criminal’s body is that it was left to decompose and serve as food for scavenging animals. Crucifixion was meant to be a public disincentive to engage in politically subversive activities, and the disincentive did not end with the pain and death—it continued on in the ravages worked on the corpse afterward."
>>23613848Yes, but you can be your own grandpa
>>23613824Why would I take Christian scholarship seriously when they have a strong motive to prove their contradictory brainrot somehow makes sense?
>>23613910I'm with you. One should always be twice as skeptical of a person who believes that their claims may affect their position in the afterlife.
>>23613824no biblical scholarship made by a christian can ever be taken seriously since the person writing is being pressured by their own believes that if they write something against it, their god will thrown them in a pit of fire forever. There can be no pursute of truth for these people, they are slaves.
>>23612708((Ehrman))pass
>>23613910>>23613958I see no reason to even entertain this shit. We've already seen the kind of world that happens when the majority of the people are atheists. It's the modern West. That's enough of an argument against atheism for me.
>>23614023to me truth is more important than pragmatism, there is no pit of fire or spa session waiting for you after death, I know that believing stuff like this helps people psychologically, but thruth is more important.
>>23614035>I know that believing stuff like this helps people psychologicallyMany christfags have had psychological breakdowns because they thought they did something the big man upstairs didn't like and they were going to burn in hell for eternity. Doesn't sound healthy to me.
>>23614043>Many christfags have had psychological breakdownsFor example?
>>23613958>being pressured by their own believesExactly the same with atheists, only they pretend it's not the case and they are being LE LOGICAL (even though there is no such thing as logic without the incarnate Logos)
>>23613057And then, for no reason, Eliade resurrected it.
>>23613763Now that guy, of all people would have an axe to grind with Christianity. Hava Nagila!
>>23613763And yet there are more believers on the earth today than ever before and Freud is disregarded as a quack in modern psychiatry.
>>23614156>even though there is no such thing as logic without the incarnate LogosExplain what that precisely means right now, fuckin pseud
>>23614187You can't be "logical" in a vacuum, using logic presupposes the only grounding for logic that is the Logos, the second person of the Holy Trinity. They have already agreed in their heart to deny God and have propped up make-believe "logical" arguments that rest on nothing but their own false assumptions about the world and metaphysics. If you question their ability to even use logic, it all breaks down because it devolves into subjectivism - "it just is because I feel it is!!!".>there are similarities in stories about creation? IT HAS TO BE THE PAGAN ONES ARE OLDER THAT'S SOIENCE AND TOTALLY NOT MY ASSUMPTIONS!!!!
>>23614203So the Greeks were incapable of logic?
>>236142031 + 1 = 2 because... Trinity? How is that better than just "it's intuitively and obviously true"?
>>23614170If you were even slightly acquainted with Freud you would know that he said religion will be around for as long as people fear death. Also, if you had any education in the field, you would know that Freud is still taught and largely respected in modern academia.
>>23614209Human logic didn't lead them to the full truth, nor can it lead anyone to it because human mind itself is sick and in a fallen state without Christ. The Greeks at least did not deny it and tried to practice virtues unlike the atheists who declare evil to be good, so they fall even further away from God. Also it's not about capability, because all humans are made in the image of God and are capable of it, but about being justified in using it. You can deny the existence of a soul but you'll still be alive.>>23614213>because ...It's not so direct, but ultimately yes. It's better because it's not "I le feel it is!!!!!" but that it just is, and that's an inescapable reality. The atheist just declares the "it just is" to be based in his own mind which is demonstrably fallible, mutable, etc. He can't escape the necessity to ground his logic like anyone else, but he does it in him himself because he tacitly affirms that he is God.
>>23614223>taught and largely respected in modern academiaI don't know if you could even make up a more meaningless credential.
>>23612708>this history from the New Testament and the church fathers is LE BAD>but my degenerate musings centuries later? they're LE GOOD
>>23614203>the only grounding for logic that is the LogosI'm going to doubt this one.
Last eve I paused beside the blacksmith’s door,And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;Then looking in, I saw upon the floor,Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.“How many anvils have you had," said I,"To wear and batter all these hammers so?""Just one," said he, and then with twinkling eye,"The anvil wears the hammers out, you know."And so, I thought, the Anvil of God’s WordFor ages skeptic blows have beat upon;Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,The Anvil is unharmed, the hammers gone.
I’m sure this guy’s research is really considered and he has tons of reliable primary sources that are logically capable of refuting Christian claims. Mhm.
>Isolate each book into its own microcosm that cannot have its interpretation influenced by any of the other NT books>Apply text critical theory as harshly as possible to rip the text into shreds>Interpret the text in a hostile mannerQED chuds
>>23614244how about both LE BAD
>>23612708These "end of Christianity" hopes from the various factions of anti-Christs dryly amusing. It amazes me none of you catch on. Christ has neither beginning, nor end. You may wish otherwise until your dying breath, you may cut the head off of every Christian you can find—it won't change anything. Christ will stand.
>>23614187>Explain what that precisely means right now, fuckin pseudhave you heard about the evolutionary argument against naturalism? you can not explain logic by purely materialisc means, in order for truth to exist it has to be based in something outside the natural orderforget the stupid guy bellow, this "logos" has nothing to fucking do with their retard trinity doctrine
>>23614394how is that rate of church attendence going christcuck?
>>23614398>forget the stupid guy bellow, this "logos" has nothing to fucking do with their retard trinity doctrineI thought Jesus was the Word or some shit
>>23614401Christianity is dying in the west but it's growing in other parts of the world. Overall it's growing not shrinking.
>>23614415yeah the fastest growing parts of christianity are the retarded low iq charismatic mongoloids who speak in tongues and shit, great look
>>23614401Going well. The prophetic word of Christ stands. Did you forget that faith was to be scarce before the end? Oh, right. You never knew. You're unread.
>>23614423Growth is growth. Being intelligent doesn't get you into heaven.
>>23614415>>23614424idiots, the fate of christianity is to shrink in any developed contry, currentely eastern europe and africa are christian, but if my any means they become developed, they'll abandon christianity no different than scandinavia
>>23614444if heaven is a hub full of low-iq third-world retards throw me in hell!all the great philosophers are there anyway, nobody who's intelligent can believe a jewish cult's lies anyway
>>23614444no one has made the prospect of going to hell as attractive as you just did, for the sake of the lord kill yourself retard
>>23614447Keep that futile hope alive, I suppose. I'll keep smirking with wry fascination at your foolishness until I join the Lord.
i really hope i don't end up stuck in heaven with all of you retards
>>23614491heaven will be full of haitians, mexicans and congolese people, good luck spending a eternity with them!
>>23614498As well as many of my family, ancestors, and countless other people of my own race.
>>23614498I'm not concerned. I'm not racist. Heaven will be full of perfect people from many ethnos.
>>23614491You'll more likely be in Hell, don't worry.
>>23614520nah, i already got baptized, i'll be fine
>>23613068Evangelical Christian is pretty much Salafi or Wahhabi of Christian world. They are very literalist like Salafi in interpret bible. Catholic Christian is just better. There is balance between reason and Faith. They are not literalist. That's why for catholic. theory of evolution can exist. From catholic perspective. Adam is created from phsycial body first without a soul. State of body without a soul can happened in for a very long time. It can be left Roam the earth. Physical Body need to be comfortable on earth first. Need to know how to survive physically. Then the phsycial body evolve into more human like being. When its time came. God breath the soul into Adam. Thus the body become conscious and he become Adam with a name. Scientist can't know where the consciousness come from. If evangelical accept theory of evolution and not be literalist. Darwin probably don't use evolutionary arguments against them
>>23613206>buzzword buzzword buzzwordI am sure that you will explain me, what "plebeian reddit tier slop", and why h.p is that
lol
>>23614593>That's why for catholic. theory of evolution can exist.What it means that you're not accounting for, is that death and suffering is not caused by sin but was created by God as an inherently good part of the world. Human beings are supposed to suffer and die and that's God's "good" design rather than something than something caused by sin. God created the world with the full intent that it be a realm of death and misery.
>>23614448I wish you could understand how unbelievably braindead and irony-laden this post of yours is! Haha!
>>23614203>You can't be "logical" in a vacuum, using logic presupposes the only grounding for logic that is the Logos, the second person of the Holy Trinity. They have already agreed in their heart to deny God and have propped up make-believe "logical" arguments that rest on nothing but their own false assumptions about the world and metaphysics. If you question their ability to even use logic, it all breaks down because it devolves into subjectivism - "it just is because I feel it is!!!".>>there are similarities in stories about creation? IT HAS TO BE THE PAGAN ONES ARE OLDER THAT'S SOIENCE AND TOTALLY NOT MY ASSUMPTIONS!!!!
>>23614203I hate presupfags so much. Your argument is self refuting anon. It's begging the question.
Amusing how all other religions are so utterly insignificant that everybody only ever attack Christianity. Absolutely overpowered.
>>23614721people talk about Islam all the time
>>23613057Christianity is needed to save the jews though
>>23612708Copenhagen School blew the lie apart
>>23613824Ratzinger basically obliterates 90 percent of all Athiest arguments
>>23614147this
>>23612708>(((bart d. ehrman)))>Do early life check.>"American former Protestants"Early life bros, it's over.
>>23613534>Yes they do? That's literally the entire point of Christianity.I think he's referring to Unitarianism.
>>23612708There are multiple angles you could try to refute Christianity but really refuting isolated theological tenants, such as Christ's divinity, is basically a totally Protestant view of Faith. Every dogma and infallible declaration is a whole unit - the divinity is important but that isn't the only aspect, even focusing on Jesus is a bit odd and whacky versus the plagues of Egypt or the walls of Jericho - it's a tradition not a tradition that has one person and Jesus makes claims about Moses and the prophets being essential for belief in Him. Moreover, the fact critics ignore the Old Testament's much harder to believe Moses narratives just shows they don't critique religion. It just is a bit weird that people think the Gospels cannot have a development beyond what is originally proposed given Christ is a leap-sized development in a millenia old religion. Basically, to say Christ lies is one thing but then you also need to say which other prophets are liars. For example, why not just wrongly say Isaiah was a fake prophet? Or a smaller one like Hosea? The fact is that it's spiritual warfare and per St. John's epistle if you do not confess Jesus Christ as Lord and God you do not confess victory over this world.
>>23614147>>23614789
>>23615110>refuting isolated theological tenants, such as Christ's divinity, is basically a totally Protestant view of Faith.If Jesus didn't claim to be God Christianity falls like a house of cards. If you don't believe that then tell me how do I get saved.
>>23615119Sounds like he's having his first existential crisis about being wrong about his belief system and fears his eventual unknown death. I was raised Christian and had my first existential crisis at 15. Was an atheist for awhile after that, eventually came back to God, in a way. I don't care if I'm wrong. I'm not scared of death, it's the dumbest thing you can worry about.
>>23613608>I doubt disaffiliation has anything to do with sect.It absolutely does. Mainline Protestants who care about their religion become Evangelicals whereas mainlines who don't have that much fervor just slowly drift into disaffiliation. Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland all have more Catholics than Protestants now because the Protestants are more likely to become atheists.
