I am in the middle of Sodomah and Gomorrah and it seems i spend lot of time in average enjoyment reading pages upon pages of mundane conversations at parties, just waiting for "Proustian sentence" - some kind of sudden little piece of wisdom and beauty that is completely universal to human experience. While there are certainly novels that i feel are much more consistent, there is no author with higher highs than Proust - so i continue to read it , trudging through more boring, satirical fragments (someone maybe point me - whats so interesting about aristocrats social gatherings? OK, Saniette and his etymology monologues for example are quite interesting but going for few pages - it can easily overwhelm reader, especially late at night).I really love recursive narration - free association type of style, for example, he starts talking about jealousy he feels when Albertine looks at other women, then he goes from that to anecdote about lesbian sister of Bloch, from that to hotel manager who was fag himself so he helped to hide Bloch sister romance, from that to short interlude about peasant girls who natually know poetry and then slowly back to topic of Albertine lesbian jealousy. Always love the realization he drew a circle again. This style was hugely influential to me, i am trying to write my journal the same way - for example writing about me jerking off on meth, fluently go on musing about lost of my natural innocent sexuality and from that i start writing about my last randez-vouz and after that i look for ways how can i go back to topic of jerking off - it really makes more fun to think about, how to make such conversions from one topic to another more fluent, like how Proust would write it.I think because of how long novel is, and how almost nobody reads it - there is lot of misconceptions about the novel even here. How gay it is (but narrator is hetero by most of it), how boring or difficult it is (but his prose is really clear and he is quite simple, breezy to read) , also because nobody reads more than first book - all the references people are doing are to Swann's Way only or to that very overreferenced madelaine scene - funny how every essay hack writes about same things, but i feel, its not really why Proust is so great.
>>23618336>Always love the realization he drew a circle againYou're going to love the last book then
>>23618336In a week or so I'll start my journey with Proust and while I feel excited I'm also worried I might not like it as much as I "should".
>>23618349This. It’s a book that was a struggle at times to slog through but it greatly grew on me long after I finished it. It’s a monumental book and is best viewed as a whole from a distance including it’s relation to Proust’s life and what is actually in the book itself
>>23618354>it’s relation to Proust’s life and what is actually in the book itselfThis analysis really puts it very well.https://www.marxists.org/archive/lunachar/works/proust.htmThe novel isn’t really a memoir or the like and its relation to Proust’s own life is tangential and irrelevant mostly. The actual stories of the books aren’t really so important as are the ideas through which the stories are used as a way to discuss them. Higher truths and beauty are sought springing from mundane discussions of plaid raincoats and afternoon sky crescent moons.
>>23618336I enjoy Proust, but I have to read him in translation, so I just know I'm missing out on such a wonderful experience from the original French.I generally find authors who write a lot of droll scenes to be enjoyable—they seem to frequently stand out in my memory as authors whose prose is an experience in itself, Waugh, for instance, but they rarely stand out in memory as authors whose thoughts weigh most. Proust is special, in that, regardless of objective measure, he brings the reader into his own person and the subjective weight of his experience takes on a universal power which, for me at least, nearly blurs the lines between my own feelings and his. >jerking off on methSometimes, I forget what sort of people I'm associating with on this website...
>>23618466Proust himself has scenes involving his narrator masturbating to peasant girls in the “orris-root scented room intended for a much more banal use”- the only room the narrator is permitted to lock, the restroom.
>>23618470I'm aware. His vices don't excuse your own.
>>23618450I don’t mean incidents from Proust’s life but Proust as a writer if that makes sense
I want to read ISOLT but I can't justify the time it will take. I already fell for the IJ meme.
>>23618507As if you are going to do anything better with your time and life
>>23618590I fuck your mom, faggot.
>>23618336>How gay it isThe first half isn't that gay because he doesn't know about how gay the other people are. M. de Charlus is a giant fag and Morel is bisexual slut.If you know any fag irl (or are so yourself) you know how gay it is.
>>23618590Like reading other books? What exactly did you think I was saying?
>>23618507>he thinks Proust is a 'meme' and that ISOLT is comparable to IJJesus fucking Christ
>>23618647I didn't say that, did I? All I'm saying is they're both long. Jesus christ, learn to fucking read.
>>23618649you are not supposed to read it in one go. You can read a volume - then take a year long break - then read next volume. Its recommended to read it like that, as one of the theme is forgetting
>>23618679Even if that were true, you're still forgetting as you read along, as the sheer volume of material makes it difficult to retain all the details. The experience of forgetting while reading can mirror the novel's themes just as effectively as taking long breaks between volumes.
I'm reading it now and it towers above any other prose work I've read. It's stylistically unparalleled, the characters feel real to the point that they feel more real than real life at times like those nature docs with the extremely high res cameras because of the way he meticulously documents their emotional experiences and theory of mind, his imagery is beautiful and I love flowery imagery and some poetry, and his nuggets of psychological wisdom are more useful than any self help book I've read. I've sometimes zoned out during it as well due to the sheer volume of verbiage, but overall it's shaping up to be my most important reading experience. It's funny to go from this to some other meme book shilled here and witness the enormous gulf of skill and talent between Proust and the meme author.
>>23618643No books are better than isolt
>>23618861Are you reading it in French or translated?
the middle two books are the slowest and have the most "party conversation" passages. the last three volumes are the very best ones
>>23618861>more real than real life at times like those nature docs with the extremely high res camerasThat's embarrassing. I hope you don't have ambitions to be an author.
>>23619426>t. failed writer
>>23618336Call me a pleb all you want Anthony Powell ('the English Proust') was a better writer and was also funny.
>>23619404Translated
>>23619426how is that embarrassing you turbopseud
Anyone here read this? Is it good?
>>23619992If you’re really interested in Proust, yeah. She idolized Proust so she is very bias and kind of makes him out to be some perfect figure. It still gives a good rough sketch of the man
>>23618336It's about the vibe, man
>>23618336Too gay and jewish for me to bother with.
>>23620109very cool anon
>>23618472From Within a Budding Grove:>I had her pinned between my legs as though she were the bole of a little tree I was trying to climb. In the middle of all my exertions, without my breathing being quickened much more than it already was by a muscular exercise and the heat of the playful moment, like few drops of sweat produced by the effort, I shed my pleasure, before I even had time to be aware of it.>This bit of "pleasure-shedding" turns into a somewhat unsavory version of the madeleine scene: the experience links itself with "the cool, almost sooty air of the little trellised booth," which reminds him of the "dampish redolence" of his uncle Adolphe's room at Combray, the one in which he masturbated, leaving "a natural trail like that left by a snail." He is overcome with a sense of shame because "I had experienced a moment of genuine rapture, not from some idea of importance, but from a musty smell."
>>23618819not really bro he repeats himself a lot. i would start with guermantes way then read the first two then pick up with sodom and finish it off
I think In Search of Lost Time is a joke of a book, in that you will never regain the time lost on reading that bullshit, let alone if you learn French just to read it...
>>23621577>In Search of Lost Time is a joke of a book, in that you will never regain the time lost on reading that bullshitHow clever and refreshing. Did you come up with that yourself?
>>23621683get exposed, you little chomo
>>23620109>>23621577You guys are so cool, can I please suck you off or something?
>>23618336>Anon can't get into the Aristocratic Society GatheringsIt's genuinely over for you.
>>23621577>>23621683That joke is lame because part of the title’s meaning is about the inherent worthlessness of the trivialities of life within the book. You are proving his own point by saying “it’s a boring waste of time.” The point is that life is a boring waste of time.
>>23619416Swann’s way and Time regained were written simultaneously iirc and everything else is basically filler. The first and last are the most important of the cycle.
>>23621795Wrong. In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower, part Sodom and Gomorrah, The Prisoner and The Fugitive are the parts that have been added to the original planned structure for the work. You can't have ISOLT without Guermantes and the first part of Sodom and GomorrahAlso you sound incredibly retarded talking about filler like it's a shonen anime
>>23621814what a weird translation it should be "In the Shadow of Blooming Girls" as they started to bloom like flowers. English is so retarded there is no common single word for "young girls"
>>23621814What you said is what I said. Those works were all added while the first and last book were written simultaneously. The work really relies on those two books.
I much prefer in polish - "W cieniu zakwitających dziewcząt"
>>23621820Moncrieff’s translation titles the work “Within a Budding Grove.”
>>23621826It relies on all of them retard, and if anyone followed your suggestion they would think that guermantes and sodom were among the filler as well when they are the most important with some of the most poignant passages like the intermittences of the heart and other reflections on memory and art that are pretty much entirely absent from swann's way, whose relevance, swann's love in particular, while precious on its own only gets fulfilled only when looked at in light of volume 4 5 and 6Try and read something more of a wikipedia article
>>23621829our (polish) translation of his work is amazingit's the best prose I've ever readit helps that the translation was by an actual respected author and poet instead of just some guy who knows foreign language but even the volumes not translated by Boy are very good, so maybe it just comes down to Proust being so amazing that even when translated he is the best prosaic
>>23622911The translation of ISOLT into Swedish is similarly considered one of the greatest translations to our language. The translator is in the canon of the 4 - 5 finest translators to ever speak Swedish, and for good reason. She lived in Paris the whole time, in part to regularly consult French colleagues, and took 20 years to complete the full cycle. I generally find much of /lit/s antipathy towards translations to be dumb at best, and plain imbecilic whining at worst.oh yeah and she was pretty hot when she was young
>>23622911old translations or new ones, what do you think? Personally i am reading 3th and 4th in Officyna translation and planning to read 5th in Officyna too - then i am either waiting for 6th and 7th to come out or read older translations - yes, chatgpt tells me they are good and Hertwig is also respected poet/author. Not sure what to do.Also Boy was such a chad - translated Rabelais, Proust and more and absolutely crushed mad pussy during rolling twenties, he was a king of the party, so i heard. Then he was just murdered by nazi scums for some random reason, sad story like with Schulz
>>23618336I read the first book and am halfway through the second. It’s hard to describe because there are so few writers he is similar to.I will say that the way he writes interpersonal things and dialogue draws a lot of inspiration from Austen and the Brontës. That’s the main similarity that is discernible. The rest are much less clear. I didn’t pay enough attention to Flaubert when I read him so I can’t remember if he’s similar.Proust is the literary equivalent of a really really dense, thick, wet cake. It becomes sickening if I read it for too long. About halfway through the day I have to switch to genre garbage or just stop for the day because it’s too much. But it’s also so perfect that it makes me want to give up on writing.I think Marquez must have taken some inspiration from him, though his pacing is way off in the opposite direction.The way he describes how writers are awful in person in the second book is perfect.> i am trying to write my journal the same way - for example writing about me jerking off on methlol.
>>23623108>>23622911generally i heard that new Officyna translation is closer to original. Translator of 3rd even wrote that Boy has cut off some fragments iirc he misinterpreted some things. But i agree with your post, 2nd volume by Proust was one of the most beautiful things i read - hill scene with young Albertine for example
>>23618507I fell for IJ. I hate IJ with a passion. ISOLT is very possibly the best thing ever written down.
>>23623115*second volume by Boy
>>23619474I laugh regularly at ISOLT but I don’t know that it’s intentional. It’s more the child being cute and awkward, like when he doesn’t open the envelope with who he was supposed to talk to at the party until after the party.
>>23623111I heard Proust was a large fan of Middlemarch. I started reading it earlier this month, and I can definitely see a connection between the two. Eliot is similarly outspokenly generous, while depicting people as the banal idiots they often are, while they pretend to be the opposite.
>>23622911I wish I could get a copy like a Faust I used to have, with the original on the left pages and the translation on the right pages, because there’s regularly some wordplay that obviously wouldn’t exist in French and it takes forever to find the original (e.g., not literally this, but someone will make a pun between dandelions and dandy lions but it’s really a completely different French pun that isn’t a pun in English).
>>23623138Proust is hilarious, and without a doubt deliberately. If Thomas Mann was a humourist, Marcel Proust was a comedian.
>>23623149I’ve never read that, but that makes sense. You can tell he read a ton of mid-to-late 19th century English stuff, which makes sense given when and where he was alive.
>>23623138My favorite part in Swann’s way is when the narrator’s father is trying to get M Legrandin to invite him to his sister’s but the man is from a much lower social class than Legrandin so when asked if he knows anyone in Combray he makes a bunch of flowery circumlocutions and terse philosophical sayings to get him off the subject and leave him alone.
>>23620872I guess you couldn't comprehend that short post, could you? Astonishing.
>>23624841No, I did but I just wanted to post a funny example because it is funny.>random recollection to the time he masturbated and it is portrayed the same way as Swann’s love of Odette through the musical piece is thus showing the frivolous nature of loveIt is all coming together.
>>23624991Well, you might have said. For a moment I ranted to myself at the level of conversation around here being held down by ESLs getting confused. All for nothing, lol. I am impressed you've read as much of it as you have. I mean to, but I've only read Swann's Way, and then somehow wandered off reading other things. It's been long enough now I'll have to read Swann's Way again before I go on.
>>23625046The very first part of Within a Budding Grove is just a continuation of the Gabrielle Swann story from the first one except with them as teens and while he chases her around the smell of the restroom they visit reminds him of when he jerked off to her in a different restroom at home. That is all supposed to be like the recollection of the Madeline or the Vinteuil sonata except more embarrassing and perverse in the words of the narrator. It is all quite silly. I should’ve mentioned that in my post. I just liked it for the silly way the narrator goes with that.
>>23622911>>23623085Uh oh! Watch out, anons... you'll piss off the babbelfags with your rational praise of good translations.
>>23625162That sorta thing is idiotic anyway because Proust himself complimented the Moncrieff translation. >On 10 October 1922, Proust wrote to Scott Moncrieff, thanked him for "the trouble you have taken," and complimented him on his "fine talent."
>>23618336>just waiting for "Proustian sentence" - some kind of sudden little piece of wisdom and beauty that is completely universal to human experienceyou should have seen plenty of those by volume 4, unless you wanted to say how you are seeing those parts, but that they are interspersed with other things which you find boring (i see you criticizing the social gatherings, but i found those very entertaining most of the time, primarily because of the topics they are discussing; the party at guermantes' place in the second half of volume 3 was one of the peaks of ISOLT for me)what is your favorite part of ISOLT for now?>OK, Saniette and his etymology monologues for example are quite interesting but going for few pages - it can easily overwhelm reader, especially late at nightthen take a break, no one is forcing you to read it all at once>I think because of how long novel is, and how almost nobody reads iti don't know how many people read it in full (although it's a pretty famous classic), but i doubt many go around pretending they've read it in its entirety if they've only read volume 1, for example>How gay it is (but narrator is hetero by most of it)it has to do with proust being gay in real life and the whole "albertine is a female stand-in for proust's male lover" thing which is why the work acquired that kind of reputationironically enough, judging the work based on the author's own life is exactly what proust was against, he also clearly criticizes that in ISOLT>how boring or difficult it isit can be boring at times, e.g. all those segments on fashion in volume 2>only or to that very overreferenced madelaine scene - funny how every essay hack writes about same things, but i feel, its not really why Proust is so greatit's definitely an overrated scene>>23618351you're in for a great ride>>23618861a very good description of his work, especially his psychological wisdomi daresay he's as good as dostoevsky in that regard
>>23625487Proust is head and shoulders above that Tsarist Christian charlatan, you twat. Not even in the same league.
>>23625625NTA but Dostoevsky was my favorite as a kid. I’m afraid to read him as an adult in case he’s actually bad now that my brain is done cooking.
>>23626153You read it now and face the facts!
>>23626286I don’t want to. If I get to the inquisitor, and the sticky little leaves, and it turns out it’s actually cringe it’ll ruin my week.
>>23618336good to read when depressed
>>23626812why?
>>23626836the slow and gentle pace
>>23626836It is a very pessimistic book
>>23625487>u should have seen plenty of those by volume 4, unless you wanted to say how you are seeing those parts, but that they are interspersed with other things which you find boring (i see you criticizing the social gatherings, but i found those very entertaining most of the time, primarily because of the topics they are discussing; the party at guermantes' place in the second half of volume 3 was one of the peaks of ISOLT for me)>what is your favorite part of ISOLT for now?Favourite volume in general was second one - maybe because its most concerning with youth and first love - things I never knew and wished to know through Proust. Some fragments that made me gasp in awe was fragment with Albertine and her friends on the hill in volume 2, short Albertine sex fragment in vol 3 then very sobering ending of volume 3 when Guermantes lady has to choose between friend and going to another party. In vol 4 again I liked fragment with waiting for Albertine and him wondering if she loves him or not. In general I do underline passages here and there, especially some reflections about time and changing relationships to people, places and - change in general, these reflections he very casually throws here and there - I would need to look into book to know because I have bad memory for these things but these kind of casual reflections are one of my favourite thing about book.Yes, what I meant was - plot and party shaeningans are very slow and I feel like I most enjoy digressions and reflections. I don't really thing party things are boring in general - i still quite enjoy it's satirical qualities, it's quite funny in places too, it's just very slow. Sometimes I really feel I read 50 pages and action has not changed place at all from given place and given people. Its interesting from that context that you don't need very complex plot to write a great novel, plot can be pretty barebones and take a very long to unveil - it is inspiring to me, but when i write myself i try to not get lost in details to not bore myself and audience. But in case of Proust I am not sure if it's "detail" that takes so long if you catch my drift.>whole "albertine is a female stand-in for proust's male lover" thing which is why the work acquired that kind of reputationironically enough, judging the work based on the author's own life is exactly what proust was against, he also clearly criticizes that in ISOLTFrom what I read Proust was closeted homo, and I thought about it recently thinking how portrayal of Charlus make sense in that context. Narrator is peculiarly obsessed about Charlus gayness - why does he even care? But reading more - it's not about him being gay but it's more about society reaction to him being gay. Lot of place seems to be focused on questions like "who knows that he is gay", "who makes the signs who sees them" or Charlus being embarrassed about someone making reference or someone knowing. I thought this is much about experience of closeted gay
>>23625625sad to see you this filtered>>23627630>Favourite volume in general was second one - maybe because its most concerning with youth and first love - things I never knew and wished to know through Proust.volume 2 is the one i liked the least after volume 5, primarily because of the first half, which was boring in many places for me>then very sobering ending of volume 3 when Guermantes lady has to choose between friend and going to another partythe final scene in volume 3 (when swann appears) is pure kino and would work extremely well as a cliffhanger scene to a series adaptation adaptation of ISOLT>Sometimes I really feel I read 50 pages and action has not changed place at all from given place and given peopleand it probably hasn't, but i don't mind that>but when i write myself i try to not get lost in details to not bore myself and audiencedifferent strokes for different folksi consider myself lucky that i can enjoy plenty of different things, which is why i can, for example, love both proust and hemingway>Narrator is peculiarly obsessed about Charlus gayness - why does he even care? But reading more - it's not about him being gay but it's more about society reaction to him being gay. Lot of place seems to be focused on questions like "who knows that he is gay", "who makes the signs who sees them" or Charlus being embarrassed about someone making reference or someone knowing. I thought this is much about experience of closeted gaywell yeah, charlus is an excuse for proust to write about the perception of gay people in those times, but that's a different thing entirely
>>23627630>Favourite volume in general was second one - maybe because its most concerning with youth and first love - things I never knew and wished to know through Proust.This book resonates so intensely with me because it makes me miss my youth and my first true love. I am not the most sociable person so I feel that in life I won’t be granted many true opportunities to experience the emotion.
>>23621820"In the Shadow of Blooming Damsels""In the Shadow of Blooming Virgins""In the Shadow of Blooming Maidens"None of these sound too good...
>>23628463Those all sound like heavy metal songs.
>>23618336I’ve read the first two volumes and I loved when he talked about Albertine and the gang and the swans daughter the redhead.His inner monologues of the characters are fascinating. I’m no stranger to reading tomes for books so I’ll hopefully get to the last 4 volumes in due time,
>>23621577>….
>Proust thread>not a single post in french
>>23628621>TouchéHappy now?
>>23626812Because the entire book is about the inherent fake quality of thing such as society, love and morals. Everything throughout the book clearly expresses Proust’s disdain and lack of faith in such professed articles. It is the perfect book to read if you are fed up with everyone and with everything. Joseph wood Krutch’s introduction describes it as a last defense of a hedonist society crumbling apart.
>>23628657>Morals and love are fake I think you're just tired.
>>23628671The entire point of Swann and Odette is that she wasn’t a particularly notable woman whom he tricked himself into idolizing and coveting. Love being extremely arbitrary in nature makes it fake.
>>23628671Maybe I expressed myself poorly but the book is at least about disillusionment with these principles.
>>23628689>Like everybody who is not in love, he imagined that one chose the person whom one loved after endless deliberations and on the strength of various qualities and advantages.
>>23628799Are you not proving my point? Love is arbitrary in that you don’t choose someone for those qualities but like Zizek said in that one video, you just fall into it. That is backing up my point. Saying “love is fake” might be misinterpreted. What I intended is that love’s qualities aren’t as pure or idyllic as portrayed in most media.
>>23628799https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rrxk2WzrE14&pp=ygUSeml6ZWsgZmFsbCBpbiBsb3Zl
>>23628621Then start speaking frog, babbelfag
>>23628621You don’t need French because Proust himself praised the Moncrieff edition as a stellar work of art in English when taken on its own. See >>23625170
>>23628708Get disillusioned with your heat sense and balance next.
>>23628708Is it really? I found that the last volume was an embrace of love, even if it is arbitrary in its choice of object. After all, he spends a whole previous volume rationalising away his love for Albertine, only to have it strike him harder than he could've imagined. I did the same once; you can't really defeat it through some intellectual process. Swann fools himself into falling for Odette, and Marcel the narrator tries to fool himself into falling out of love with Albertine, and neither really works.
>>23628885It embraces love as an inevitability while noting its entirely arbitrary nature. That is why I described love as “fake” in the post.
>>23628893Right, I absolutely get your point, anon. But I strongly disagree with your choice of words; "fake" would stand in opposition to "real", and love is about as real as it gets.
>>23628905Okay, I will rephrase it to be absolutely precise. “The preconceived notion we all have of love as a rational process whereby we obsess and fall for the perfect idol of affection is entirely incorrect and what we know of as love is far more random in its composition.”
>>23628912I agree completely, anon.
>>23625170Uh oh! When the author himself praises the translation... wonder what the babbelfags would think of that
>>23618507Swann’s Way is only one third the length of Les Miserables. If you only do one book at a time it shouldn’t take too long.
Proust
>>23630195Prout
>>23618336>thoughts on Proust?reading him in english is like fucking with a dampener on your penis
>>23630680and I don't mean this in some random elitist manner, it's just that his prose often becomes poetry and it's really really hard to properly translate
>>23630566Trout
>>23630680>>23630683see >>23625170
