Reading novels has ruined video games for me. Even the best written video games (e.g. Fallout New Vegas) are childish compared to great literature. Has this happened to anyone else?
>>23620635>Even the best written video games (e.g. Fallout New Vegas)
>>23620635Nah>best written video games (e.g. Fallout New Vegas)lel
No, and I actually laughed at the inferiority of the writing I found in tomes such as "ulysses" or "swann's way" to great Fallout: New Vegas quests like "Return to Sender" or "Wang Dang Atomic Tango"
>>23620680>>23620684I meant that it has a good story for a videogame, not that the story is good per seThere are no vidya with good stories
>>23620708>good story>"west east east west">"damn youre so damn right, I have to pull my entire army and retreat because west east east west">good story
>>23620708>There are no vidya with good storiesMorrowind is a good story. Deconstruction of prophecy akin to post modern /lit/, allusion to real life culture and religion, redefined a hero journey in vidya medium
>>23620635Video games were my first love, and it took my longer than it should have to give them up. It’s like Paul says in Corinthians, you know?
>>23620635Play signalisIt's not groundbreaking story, but it's greater than the sum of its parts
>>23620635No since I’ve read all my life and only encountered the “vidya is art” shit when I was way way older.I played all the “see games are art!!!1!1” games squinting trying to make myself see it, but yes as you said, it pales in comparison. The best video game has the artistic merit of a genre fiction short story, but takes 1-3 orders of magnitude longer to take in.
I was reading Tails Get Trolled and is insane how great it is. I thought it was a good before reading books, and now i think its even better that i remembered.
>>23620702Stop you’ll make me piss myself
Eh
There are some games out there that would be peak literature of the 21th centruy if it was made in form of a proper novel, not even joking
>>23620792If my grandmother had wheels she’d be a bicycle
>>23620800If my dog could fly he'll be a rocket
Yes but can you play a book lol
>>23620760That all sounds like marvel movie shit which makes me more convinced than ever of OP‘s point (not that it wasn‘t self-evident.) >>23620787Lmao babby‘s first Alex Jones broadcast
You and the rest of the faggots here don't read.
>>23620849Imagination >>>>> playing a video game
>>23620708Even the best novels have really shitty gameplay
>>23620708Xenogears is fairly good, even if it is a smattering of PHIL 101 with a sci-fi twist.
>>23620635>get this object, kill that guy, complete this taskno
death to all shitteo game players
>>23620873This. I imagine every single book i read as an anime / animated film. Its impossible to get bored
>>23620635I play video games because I like violence. The story is just there to give me a pretext to be violent. I don't understand why this is hard for people to understand.
>>23621057Grow up jesus christ
>>23620862>marvel slop>deconstruction of prophecy>allusion to rl culture and religion>redefining hero journey in other mediumLulwut?
>>23620635This is true for video game stories in the conventional sense, i.e. told through dialogue and cutscenes, moments when control is taken away from the player, but the best stories in games are told via your own actions, and the atmosphere and conflict in the environment. Video game stories told in this second way are more like the story when you go on an adventure or just interact in the real world, which isn't intrinsically better or worse than the way a story is told in books and movies
Who the fuck plays video games for the story? I wanna shoot zombies that's literally it.
>>23620635Video games are still in their infancy stage, and no one wants to admit this.Are video games art? In terms of functioning as a game to be played? Yes. In terms of storytelling? Sure, they are effectively no different than the old genre pulp that populated magazines. But in terms of actual writing quality? Nope. They're not there yet, and likely never will be. The medium is its own different beast thanks to the interactive dimension that comes with it.You can read a script for a movie. You can read a book. But you can't really "read" a game in the same way, not even the ones that involve a story. Does that make any sense?
>>23620635If you play vidya for the story you are a woman or a homosexual
>>23621288It's because a video game is a game. It's a toy. It's not about the story, that's all just window dressing for pressing a button that makes your character jump. A game can be great with no story at all. It's generally in a game's favour to feed you bite sized bits of narrative just to keep you engaged. Giving you too much to mull over distracts from the game. Look at a game like Elden Ring. There's apparently some kind of lore but who knows, it's all in item descriptions that 99% of people don't read. Any effort in writing that has no influence on its success because the players are there for the visual spectacle and the feeling of seeing their guy on screen smash a monster with his sword. It's a medium that serves a completely different centre of the brain.
>>23620778I think Silent Hill 2 is art.
Yea, reading novels has made me hate story-driven video games, I still play plenty of multiplayer games tho or single-player puzzle games that are almost void of stories
>>23620635It did for me. I used to care for story driven games like MGS and the Xeno series, but now I just see it as entertainment and raw fun where my actual intellectual interests are in books. I shall ask this question: has a video game ever approached The Brothers Karamazov?
>there aren't any video games with good writingalso Fallout New Vegas lel
>>23620778Have you tried Disco Elysium? It was made by people with a background in more artsy and literary writings. It is pretty much the closest I've found of a game that truly feels like high art.
>>23621522one the same topic
>>23620635Everywhere I go I have to argue with people that Jujutsu Kaisen does not have "deep philosophical themes." 99.9% of the time I play videogames for satisfying and deep gameplay mechanics because the story will just suck. Only exception where I enjoyed a game's story is Soma where most of the lore is reading anyway. Maybe 95% of anime/manga story is irredeemable trash. Mostly just watch for action or aesthetic. >>23620778I think any videogame trying to imitate movies or novels fails horribly. The value in video gaming comes with interactivity. There is no interactivity in being stuck in "cinematic" cut scenes or quick time events and devs are too retarded to get past this. LSD dream emulator is an experience, not anything in the god of war or assassin's creed series. >>23621288>Video games are still in their infancy stage, and no one wants to admit this.They might be dying and AAA devs spent all their time maximizing the sizes of their texture and maximizing their cinematic cutscene length instead of making fun gameplay or doing something unique.
>>23620635Video games ruined themselves for me
I only play stuff like Factorio or Baba is You nowadays. The stories in games are not compelling after you turn 13.
>>23620708>good storyIf you don't even understand subjectivity yet you have only scratched the surface.
>>23621528No, but I’ve watched clips and stuff and know I wouldn’t be able to bear the cloying of stuff like your attributes talking to you.
>>23620708what about metal gear solid 2?
>>23620635Video games can never be art because st the end of the day they originated as, and always will be, toys.
>>23622499Those aren't mutually exclusive categories
>>23621528Yeah right. Spyro the Dragon 2: Ripto's Rage was high art. Disco is boring
>>23622501They are. Art serves no function outside of itself.
>>23622502>>23622317Somebody into litfic should try to make a game once, an indie game. Maybe something in the vein of Disco but better.
For me, it's picrel
>>23622504Says who
>>23622505>somebody should make disco elysium but betterwhat did you think you were doing with this post?>>23622317you obviously aren't well read
>>23622317you can turn off the narration on the skills. the original release didn't have them voice (especially not by the same guy)
>>23621583not they way they are forced on you. it's tired to talk about now, but the games that do it through ways such as environmental storytelling (elden ring) are using the medium well
>>23622525ER is probably the worst “written” AAA of the past 30 years
Can the gameplay itself be art?
>>23622529that would be dragons dogma 2. and you obviously don't understand what im talking about. if you know the the 'story' well enough to make such a claim, you were approaching it wrong.the story works as a diorama. something like that
>>23622537not without context, but sure. a lot of people start bitching about any art that isnt operating under familiar constraints, but you could argue this in some way, or it could be accomplished
>>23622537I think so. I just want games to have an air of legitimacy around them. I also read books, and I want games to be seen as on the same level as them. I've been a gamer my entire life and its always been a big part of my identity. Why do people respect people who read books more than gamers? What is up with that? Both aren't particularly impressive I don't think.
>>23620635> even the best games (e.g. fallout slop)LMFAOfaggot get your broke ass on Mother 3 and Chrono Trigger.
>>23622506> "for me, it's slop!"get your broke ass on. Toby Fags is a hack and a loser and a tranny lover.
>>23620635Congratualtions on growing up anon. Again video games are artisticaly the equivalent of a toddlers drawings.
Ico is an oft forgotten classic.
>>23622537Rarely. I will give an exception award to stardew valley, where the theme is the idea that going red mode and leaving society for a farm is somehow good and relaxing, and then refutes itself by the simulator gameplay being meditative and relaxing in the same way that people that have never farmed think farming will be.
>>23622597*going Ted mode
I think categorizing them as games in the first place and saying they "have" to be fun was a mistake. Books don't have to be fun. Movies don't either. They just need to be engaging. I think it would be better if they were just called virtual experiences instead.
>>23622609Accurate, but unfortunately it sounds like corporate speak.
>>23622619Oops I accidentally did that.
>>23622586UT did a great job of deconstruction and exploring the boundaries of the video game medium. "Don't kill and don't be killed" is also a good message.As for DR, it's not finished yet, so let's see what the next chapters will be like.
Writing in modern videogames has become so comically bad that it's now a meme to point out how you are MERCENARY part of the nebulous REBELLION on a kickass journey to take down CORPOS
>>23620635>the best written video games>Fallout New VegasK E K
>>23622693Uhh, yeah?
>>23620787The Sons of Liberty were real and were much more compelling than fiction.They were a clandestine, loosely affiliated group of underground Patriots.Their goal was to incite popular revolt, and their means were successful.Propaganda, petitions, boycotts, humiliating public officials.Even violence at times, burning down a stamp office.They got into brawls with the guard, like our riots.The Boston Tea Party, an act of protest.The violence escalated, politically.Into skirmishes, then battles.Didn't start in a vacuum.It was very intentional.A conscious effort.
>>23622739Cool
Not really, games are a different medium. There's a different appeal to storytelling where you play a role. Plus most games aren't really "about" the writing. The best kind of storytelling in games is often when you can just explore and investigate an environment, and infer things (meticulously looking at items on a desk to get a sense of who a character is, for example). don't get that in a book. If it's not written on the page, and if your attention isn't directly called to it, it isn't there at all.
>>23620778>“see games are art!!!1!1” gamesI'm generally unimpressed by those games. they're what people call "McDonalds arthouse". They have superficial artful qualities that impress stupid people.For the most part you should probably just accept the fact that video games aren't really supposed to be high minded stuff. If you want a good action thriller, or a good Sword and Sorcery adventure, video games are pretty much the best medium for that. They make you the character that all of the thrilling stuff is happening to, and that's so much better than just passively consuming the experience from an on-looker's perspective.I think games are perfect for mysteries and detective stories, because in a game you can actually investigate, you aren't just reading about Hercule Poirot doing it.Yeah, Im not really interested in Crime and Punishment:the Video Game. It's kind of stupid as a concept. I'm sorry. Anyone trying to "elevate" video games in that kind of direction, hasn't got it.
>>23622630underfag's message was a message that was so obvious that it didn't need to be "spread."> oh, don't be violent irl!!yeah, no fucking shit, doc. who do you think your audience is, Isis?!?but even if it were a good message, it's still drowned out by the fag propaganda being shoved down your throat, pun intended.as for deltashit, it's been on chapter 2 for like, 3,000 years. Toby gon do the same shit that yandere dev did. and so far, it's the same song and dance;> "don't kill people, also BEING A TRANNY OR A FAGGOT IS COOL, GUISE!! TRUST ME!!"fuck outta here. play a real rpg, like Chrono cross.
I have to be under the effects of alcohol or cannabis to enjoy most popular entertainment. It makes me feel like a normal person, speaking anonymously.
>>23620635The primary uniqueness factor in books relative to other media is the narrative and how much flexibility authors have when constructing them. Games are about interactivity. There's a massive fundamental difference in intent. Games can contain good stories, but that typically isn't the point.
>>23622811not that guy and idc what prompted your reply, but you seem like a genuinely stupid person.
visual novels aren't any better, don't get fooled and baited, they're an immense waste of time
>>23620635If you want to be taken seriously as an adult, you should stop playing video games. I'm 31 and I quite video games at 29. The jump in productivity in every aspect of my life was startling. My clear headedness and focus improved 10-fold. I'm embarressed I wasted so much of my life on video games with nothing to show for it.
>>23622864I quit video games at 23, and then realised I was just having a gay quarter life crisis, and got back into them
>>23622864I play maybe 10 hours a week, mostly on the weekend with friends. Gaming is a good hobby if you indulge it socially. Sitting in your living room by yourself for 5 hours a day is bad for you regardless of what you're doing.
>>23620635Correct. Anyone who says otherwise is a pleb who never stood a chance. Start playing Chess, Riichii Mahjong, or Go when you need a game, anon.
>>23622864Posting on 4chan is an even bigger waste of time than playing video games.
>>23622885this nigga has a collection or retro hats that he insists are trilbys, not fedoras.
>>23622879>social video gaming is a good hobbyI think I still disagree. We need liesure and social interaction in our lives: we can't be constantly devoted to one task in isolation at all hours of the day, we will exhaust ourselves. But liesure can still be both social and productive. I've taken up other hobbies like portrait drawing and music that have informed and inspired other areas of my life that video games simply did not, and it was still social: I took up drawing classes at the local museum and group piano classes in the extended learning program at the community college and have made many friends in my city through them. I've joined book clubs and those discussions in public with other readers about a work have taught me how to express my views and opinions on any given work in areasonable and mature way. It gets me outside the house for something other than work, and helped me improve some of my social discomforts and idiosyncrisies. If the argument is "well I game with friends who don't live near me anymore and this keeps us together" I can maybe understand it. But I still think it is best to eliminate video games from your life entirely.
>>23622889I disagree. Posting on hobby boards is a great exercise in forming arguments and expressing thoughts. It forces me to think about what I actually believe and how to express it clearly. Sure, if you're going around calling anons 'faggot' and 'nigger' while posting soijaks, it's a waste of time. But I've gained value from posting on 4chan.
>>23622858proof?
>>23622811My ex husband turned into a tranny after playing undertale.
>>23622955damn, you dodged a damn shotgun blast.years ago, I tried to give those things the benefit of the doubt, and I dated one of them. worst mistake of my fucking life, to state the obvious.unfortunately, your implication of femininity requires the "tits or gtfo" rule.unless you're a man, in which case you can keep 'em to yaself.
>>23622859I think you're right. I'm reading Umineko, the "best piece of art ever", and it's not exceptional. VNfags are really stuck in a massive sunk cost fallacy.
>>23620635Story isnt even in top 5 aspects that make games good.Playing games for story is retarded. Games are about gameplay, mechanics, level design, replay value, challenge and competition. Heck even music and sound trump Story shit.
>>23620635>e.g. Fallout New Vegas
>>23620635I actually prefer film and video games over fiction. I only read some fiction so I can deflect criticisms. I prefer reading non-fiction and some poetry.The only fiction I enjoy is weird fiction.I do not like artwork with complex convoluted characterization like Dostoevsky. I like characters to be simple and direct with their motives. I also do not like heavy emphasis on interpersonal relations.I find playing Pokemon more enriching than reading *most* fiction.
>>23622576>Mother 3 and Chrono Triggerlol, lmao even
>>23622549>Why do people respect people who read books more than gamers?Because gamers are among the stupidest, laziest, and most useless people you can find. Not that the /lit/ type is particularly appealing, but even they are strikingly apart from gamer boys.
>>23622976you just need to keep in mind the cultural context of VN production, market and fans when gauging the reviews and reputations to temper your expectations and tolerance accordingly. They are by design bloated to justify the $/hr, many of the fans are literal teenagers or weebophiles that value tertiary aspects like fan community/culture playing with characters like to dolls more than the text itself. Many do not engage with adult literature or films and their tastes reflect this. Like, I'm not going to read a boy's love harem dating sim no matter how many 10/10 reviews I read that say it's well written.Umineko does do some neat structural meta-fictional parlor tricks but it in no way justifies its length apart from the nature of its episodic production over many years and it's prose is entirely unremarkable. Its fine if you're enjoying the characters and narrative conceit on a scene-to-scene basis reading for leisurely entertainment - I'd just be wary as a tourist combing through "the greatest stories ever told" media works that values their time and expecting a masterpiece. (Personally found Raging Loop superior as a meta time looping piece of pure entertainment at 1/4 of the length)Another one Full Metal Demon Muramasa, yeah there's some good philosophizing on the nature of violence, justice, ethics if you've never engaged with that before but the prose itself is lacking and god damn you could read so many other things in that 100+ hours.
>>23620708Planescape and disco elysium
>>23623120>disco elysium/v/eddit was a mistake.
>>23623077what's got you chortling about, chuckles?
>>23623127>game bad because me disagree with creators politicallyHow do you engage with any media whatsoever?
>>23623153By having taste and not being easily impressed by sophomoric writing.
>>23623093Yeah, I'm like three quarters through Episode 1, and I've been taking it really slowly. Everyone I talk to who loves it hasn't picked up a book for years, or even watched a movie and only plays other video games. My experience has been around a 7.5/10, and I don't really have any desire to go faster than I am, since I'd rather read actual literature.
>>23623169You're entitled to your shit opinion, anon, along with the vapid smugness with which you conveyed it.
>>23623179Have a blessed day and enjoy your tranny visual novel friendo:).
>>23620635>Fallout New VegasThat's a really low bar. I played Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines recently and it takes a gigantic piss over any Fallout game in terms of writing and dialogue.
>>23623203>in terms of writing and dialogue.Though I guess it helps there's proper animations and decent voice acting too, so go figure.
>>23623182>trannyI appreciate you concluding the argument you were having with the statement that you never had anything to say in the first place.
>>23623215Thats a lot of wasted words to state you are a mongoloid homosexual.
>>2362292299% of people don't use 4chan that way anon, and you know it.
>>23623237For what it's worth, at least two people are calling you a tasteless retard right now. The only thing I've been able to infer from your ramblings so far is that your opinions are prescribed for you by random voices on an anime shitposting site.
>>23623263>at least two retards post on /lit/Heavens to Bestsy how ever shall I recover from being assailed by two mental invalids.
>>23621288>Video games are still in their infancy stage, and no one wants to admit this.no they aren't; they're in their dying stage. the idea that a game should be aspiring to "reach the heights" of literature and film will rapidly become nonsensical in a world where nobody watches films or reads literature. triple-a is on its last legs, "ambitious" indie games will be of no interest to anyone but a tiny niche of middle-aged dorks. what you'll be left with is a swamp of dumb little scams like those f2p phone games, trying to get you addicted to their lootboxes or whatever. that's the corpse video games will leave.
>>23621288>Video games are still in their infancy stagePosts like these are so 2016. This sentiment is fake optimism at this point.
Try Nier:Automata. The game is good, not great, but it does something really interesting with story-telling via the gaming medium.
>>23622864The problem is actually not playing video games, but over-playing video games. If you’re very invested in them or playing everyday, for hours, you are playing too much. The occasional gaming session is totally fine for all ages.
>>23622537No. Games are games. Games aren’t art. Just accept this.
I think video games can do things that narrative text can’t do and they really excel when they leverage that, rather than a well-written story. Skyrim, for example, was lacking in many ways but it’s still my favorite game for this reason. The sights, the music, the characters, the general feeling you get when you play, all of these things invoke in me something not at all that different than what I feel when I read the opening chapters of a comfy novel. It’s the northerness that C.S. Lewis spoke about, but in visual and audio and interactive discoverability rather than prose narrative. So I think if anything, becoming more well-read made me appreciate what video games can be more precisely because reading helped me understand what video games are not and thus what they are or could be.
Why do video games need to have "good writing" to be art?Mozart Jupiter Symphony also doesn't have "good writing", it's just a bunch of notations for people to make some sound.Fundamentally speaking, if music can be high art then video games can be as well, in the case of video games it's the game play instead of sound
>>23623377There is a world of difference between music and games. Video games are not art can never be art. Once you realize that, you can stop doing mental gymnastics about what is and isn’t art and start appreciating the games, or not, as games.
>>23623377games don't need writing, but if you make a game that relies on writing then the writing had better be good
>>23622630>"Don't kill and don't be killed" is also a good message.The developer is a weak dysgenic jew and it shows.
>There are grown men on this board that masturbate and play video gamesThis is why civilization is crumblingt. Drug addict
>>23622540Elden Ring sucks dick, zoomer fag.
Guys, just because you like a thing, and find it influential or even important, that doesn’t mean it has to be art. It’s okay. Things can be something other than art and still be beloved.
>>23622529Whenever I see ER players talk about the story and lore I literally think “what story? what lore?” It’s honestly like we’re playing totally different games because I found it completely incoherent.
>>23623388Don't write these empty statements.Provide arguments for why music can be art but video games can't?>>23623389sure, is Terris art then?
>>23623402No but the soundtrack is art.
>>23623399For real. They read item descriptions all at once off the wiki (i.e.: not as part of the game experience) and then hunker down and create these insane extrapolations. It’s like lore via Rorschach. Nobody playing the game as intended gets 10% of the story they claim it has.
>>23623402>sure, is Terris art then?I don't see why it wouldn't be. art can be literally anything
>>23623402You first. Your “argument” is nothing more than “neither a song and a game have ‘good writing’ so therefore both are art”.
>>23620708Trails
>>23620635Stones ruined Pearl Jam for me
>>23623176right, sounds about like my experience. Slow and steady is the way to go to mitigate the bloat and have fun with it. Binge reading to get to the presumed "good part" is a recipe for resentment and disappointment. btw don't waste time trying to solve the riddle poem besides some general ideas, you can't as an English speaker
>>23623417That's part of the fun of the From Software model. Even finding the story is part of the game. People pretty much get the story of Dark Souls now, and it's pretty simple really, but at launch people were like "what the fuck? There was a story?"Literally everything about these games is also designed to be a collaborative effort. They want the players to gather in forums and share ideas. It's all very intentional.
>>23622529From are also AA, if anything.
>games can't be artArt is human expression. That's all. All games are art.
>>23624053i don't think it's very intentional at all. i think they got unexpectedly huge in the west with dark souls 1 and ever since then they're afraid of changing anything substantial because they're not sure what exactly makes the westerners like it so much
>>23620635Because you, like most gamers, have no idea what vidya really is. As an artform, games are not about writing at all. Fallout New Vegas isn't even a real RPG (role-playing game). Strictly speaking, there are virtually no actual RPGs outside of table-top gaming, except maybe Deus Ex.
>>23620635Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic was a good game and I will have my kids play it.Modern video games are pure trash and if you are in your mid 20s still playing stuff like Call of Duty, you need to reevaluate your life and reclaim your patrician destiny.
>>23624152No, it's very much intentional. Miyazaki has spoken about this. The hard difficulty, and summon system is designed to draw people to work together, and a lot of the more arcane and indecipherable elements of the games are the same thing. He expects people to form groups to try to figure all of this out, like people did with the original Zelda and stuff back in the day.
>>23624276Man, I basically never played Call of Duty. Even when I was a teenager, and that series was at it's peak, I was way more drawn to interesting high concept stuff. US military fetishism doesn't do a hell of a lot for me.
>>23624276>Call of DutyYeah, kids should play counter instead
>>23624362I’ve read about video games improving reaction time and fine motor skills. I do think spending a lot of time playing Kotor improved my reading skills because I was so young and RPGs like that were beneficial for my vocabulary.Ultimately, if you are truly an intelligent person, you will be able to appreciate this medium for what it is, and use tasteful discernment to separate the wheat from the chaff.
>>23621528Disco Elysium is the ultimate midwit litmus testNo I won't expand further
>>23620635Weird seeing my frog being reposted.
>>23621528The gameplay in that thing scrolling through menus and picking dialogues. It clearly shows it was made by the artsy fartsy types who aren't talented enough to make movie.
>>23620708Telltale Games were pretty good.
>>23621288>Video games are still in their infancy stageand yet video games peaked in the mid 90s - mid 2000s
Imagine thinking a book needs good writing to make it art
>>23620778>>23620635Dark souls one?Also I think games are art. People can argue all day about if it’s good or bad or low or high brow art all day but it’s still art nonethelessEven if all games were shit art it would still count as art because it’s transferring your ideas and creativity into the physical world
>>23624927>>23624832Sweaty games like from souls are the least art of all games that are already on a spectrum from “not art” to “barely art”. Gameplay itself cannot be art in the same way that sports are not art, and for the same reasons. Chess is not art <-> Elden ring is not art. The only art is in the visuals and story. A chessboard can be art. Chess cannot.
>>23624930>The only art is in the visuals and storyEven the "sweatiest" game has visuals and a story. Every game has visuals and even fucking Gladius has a story
>>23624930That's not the important part. What's important that is that games have legitimacy as they are and not merely seen as toys. They are real, just like books are as a medium. They deserve respect.
>>23624945They aren’t a medium in the same way hockey isn’t a medium even though it looks cool. The way software is packaged, it’s like chess and the chessboard in one folder, and the latter trappings can be art, but the thing core thing itself can’t be. So there’s a perverse incentive where the more it is a game the less it’s art (dark souls, shooters), and the more it is art the less it is a game (bg3, your least favorite game)
>>23624955I just want games to be respected. That's all.
>>23623344A fine choice.
>>23624955>BG3 is arrSo next you're gonna tell me that dnd campaigns are art
>>23624968Dnd campaigns are art. If I take a shit and smear my shitty briefs all over a wall, that's art. Fuck all gatekeepers.
>>23620635i liked horizon zero dawn, the story was nice. also i remember the little side story of that one guy whose mom shagged some mega corpo manager, that was also cute. didn't play the new forbidden west yet.
>>23620635Play Arcanum and Planescape Torment. Also anyone who says disco elysium is a literal fucking mouthbreathing retard even with the communist bullshit aside.
>>23625005I admired the literary quality of disco but had to put that shit down in twenty min or so because the game was so fucking boring. You can't have shit tier game play and expect to make up for it with "muh deep ideas"
This, and also manga and anime. Reading the last hundred or so chapters of Berserk was painful. It’s genuinely on par with some of the YA trash you can read with a sprinkle of rape.
>>23623785Thanks for the advice. I like it enough to at least see Episode 1 to completion, but while wading into the shallows of Episode 2 I'll get my bearings and see if I should euthanize my reading.
>>23620635Not really, I always hated stories in vidya. Exceptions were games like Ace Attorney games, which are good popcorn munchers mixed with puzzles
>>23622976>>23622859try reading subahibi .. i hated umineko and higurashi but subarashiki hibi was pretty great
>>23623602and you have no argument.I can simply say that art is human expression and thus video games can be art. You won't be able to refute this
Most video games are a rip-off literature or movies in very direct ways, especially Rockstar. No surprise.
>>23623120>disco elysiumr/bookscirclejerk and don't come back
>>23625351Lmao what? It’s you that have no argument. To point out that two things have a single attribute in common, does mean that those two things correspond to the same category, a category which you’ve failed to argue is in any way related to that attribute. If art is human expression then all speech is art. It’s easily refuted by pointing out that it just one highly idiosyncratic notion of what art is. Nobody would argue that The Crucifixion of Fra Angelico is not art and yet it is not as you say “human expression”. It expresses nothing of the painter.
>>23620635Yes. I'd say an average of 8/10 games that I play have garbage stories, and the couple that are tolerable are so because the delivery is not hamfisted which allows my imagination to wander. The flipside to that method is using simpler stories because they are generally less difficult to botch. An example of both of these would be Hollow Knight and the first The Last of Us.Although I hardly ever play them, I imagine point and click adventure games probably have better stories overall.
>>23626280Point and clicks and their successors are largely better on the story front, but many of them aren't strictly games by some definitions, more like Western visual novels with puzzles. The stories do fall apart as easily as anything else, but I'd put them on par with the higher ends of their respective genres. Horror and mystery fare the best. As a point of contrast, the fetch quest "adventure" games from Love-de-Lic and its offshoots do the most with the medium as mode of storytelling.
>>23625005>planescape torment>look it up>a bunch of chucklefucks talking about it being “the best game I ever read”>it has the plot of a YA fantasy but done autistically with characters and factions autistically mapped to individual concepts in a philosophy 101 textbookYeah this is the perfect example of how video games are just a waste of life with no artistic value. The only artistic parts of it are the story, the window-dressing. The game part of the game is irrelevant. It would be better as a book, and even then it wouldn’t be a good book. It’s just that the bar is on the floor for games.
>>23624956I will never respect something anti-human that harms anyone it comes into contact with. I won’t respect meth. I won’t respect KFC. I won’t respect video games.
The fuck is disco elysium? Wanna try it but the name sounds extremely reddit
>>23627150>the social aspect of games literally brings people together>anti-humanBooks are anti-human, if anything. You literally have to go away by yourself and sit in a quiet room. It's pretty much a requirement, to properly engage with a text.
>>23627162It's a game where you're a private detective who hates his ex-wife, in a commie dystopia or something.
>>23627162it's an *experience*
>>23627168Meh, shifting goalposts. All the “seeeee it’s art!!” games are 30+ hour singleplayers. Nobody’s calling Madden 2025 high art.>>23627162It is. Imagine catcher in the rye with QuickTime events
>>23627206>“seeeee it’s art!!”I already told you those are "McDonalds arthouse" games. They exist to congratulate the egos of stupid people, and journalists who would rather be talking about movies or books. Games just are art, inherently, but a good game isn't "trying to be art". It's trying to be fun.Plus, you can still play single player games communally, and that's only getting bigger as a thing as streaming starts to become a whole community in and of itself. Much harder to grab the latest novel, and start reading it to an audience.
>>23627236Do you think chess is art?
I'll take this opportunity to post one of the best things I've read on video game writing (from thecatamites, who I honestly think is on higher plane of aesthetic understanding than basically everyone else online): http://harmonyzone.org/text/monsterparty.html
>>23627353Kind of. The board and the pieces are products of artistic expression.Whether "the game" is art. I dunno. I guess, since it pulls you into a different headspace, having you assume the role of a military commander. It compels certain ideas, and certain emotions.
>>23627384That would lead to a whole further question of "to what degree is ritual art"? Because a game like Chess is a ritual, I guess. Both players act out a certain role. There's a shared thing that's happening there, that conveys ideas, and teaches the participants to think and perceive in different ways. Is a religious hymn, or a ceremony a work of art? I don't see why not, to be honest. It's a collective, and lived-in work of art, which is obviously something other than a painting produced by a painter.
>>23620635that is not the point of most vidya though, that's like saying that novels ruined relationships for you because real women are not as interesting as the best characters in literature
>>23620635Chris Avellone is a legitimately good at making narratives and I wish he wrote books.
>>23627485Well I guess he's blacklisted from video games now, so that might actually happen.
>>23627506I don't know about that since he won seven figures in his case for defamation
>>23625019I just can't get into anything that's serialized. Comics, Manga, Anime, anythings that's expected to run for an indefinite amount of time because they'll just keep making up filler and making it more and more hard to get into.
>>23621070yesthe first Doom game & OutRun are still unsurpassed... and I looked long and hard, sacrificing days weeks even months (Selaco and Race Driver Grid come close)the arcade & pinball days were the golden age because there was no room for bullshit: big investment + bad game = no money; today they can sell everything on promises and peer pressuresic transit gloria mundi
>>23627353chess is obviously gamblingeven the biggest brain athletes can 1. win by the mistake of the opponent 2. only figure out afterwards why they won or lostthe biggest geniuses in chess recognized this and cashed out, most often into shoe fetishismt. know enough chess not to want to know more
>>23624053That style worked on Demon's Souls and Dark Souls because the world was much smaller, you had less elements, concepts, entities in the world and the plot itself was coeherent enough, each element was somewhat related to others and also related to the game mechanics. In ER the scope is enormously bigger and there are so many things in this sprawling world that are barely coeherent unless you piece together this 60000 piece puzzle. At best they should get better alternatives than item descriptions, written by God knows who.
>>23620635Aw coochie coochie cooo you have such developed taste anon I'm so proud of you, you burnout-"gifted"-kid-cum-sensitive-young american-manIs that what you wanted to hear?
I love Video Games and Books, Ive found good stories and writing in each medium
Playing fallout NV made me appriciate Carl Schmitt more
>>23629218Fallout New Vegas, like all Fallout games, has absolutely shit architecture once you enter a buildingI'm talking worse shit than an early 80s dungeonmaster could come up withno wonder books are better. at least they are not a 66 year old crackwhore pretending to be a virgin princess
>>23620708Correct. But then you can learn and play games focussed around gameplay, around a story.>>23620760>>23620900>>23621617>>23622492>>23623120>>23623612>>23624875Seethe and Cope
>>23629335*around gameplay, not around a story
>>23622859Junji Ito exception?
>>23629416You don't seem to know what a VN is, and Ito sucks compared to Kazuo Umezu.
>>23622879He looks like a freak. I'll check him out
>>23623153The problem is not the writer's politics. The problem is that the writer is a smarmy left-twitter faggot who is on a neverending, all-absorbing quest to own the chuds and "neo-liberals". He sought to write a realist novel but didn't find it necessary to actually truthfully examine the contemporary social conditions around him or to genuinely explore the psychological motives and ideals of the people who disagree with him. Instead he handcrafted a world in which he is right and all his political enemies are either losers or unapologetically evil.
>>23629441Total nut, but the good ones always are. Don't expect heavy horror, but he can bring it when he wants to. He's more of a sentimental writer that uses horror to express personal dramas. Extremely Japanese as well. Lots of old world culture poking into the late Showa period. I don't mind Ito but the only time his horror doesn't get corny is when he's joking about it like in his Cat comic.
>>23624820Anon, is there a place where I can view all of them? I think they are neat.
There was an article about Ebert's stance never dying, and I think he's right, no one seems to think Poker or Checkers is art, but and some moving elements and a story and suddenly everyone wants video games to be art. I am going to say it like this: Elements of a video game can be art.
>>23631723Anything anyone makes, is art. All this "art" or "not art" talk is egoists not realizing nobody gives a shit.
Video games are not /lit/ and in fact are shit
>>23631726Art invokes emotion and there is emotion behind every art piece
>thread is full of retarded zoomshits defending video gamesgarbage board
>how reading novels BROKE me
NOOOOOOO NOT MUH VIDEO GAMES!!!!!!
>>23631723Poker is too chaotic and checkers too simple. I'm sure plenty of people consider chess art though
>>23631726>anything anyone makes is artNobody who says this shit truly believes it.
>>23620635I don't play video games for the writing because the very concept is nonsensical, but literature has definitely ruined manga for me. The "good" shonen manga like Hunter x Hunter and Death Note feel to be on the close enough level to "bad" writing like Boku no Hero Academia or Black Clover. "Good" seinen manga like the works of Inio Asano don't feel terribly superior either. My favorite singular manga series is probably just Furuya's adaptation of No Longer Human because it's just a modernized version of Dazai's novel, which is a personal favorite anyway. Ito's version, in comparison, is garbage.
>>23620635Recommend me a story to read as entertaining as Fallout New Vegas
>>23632033Do you believe conflating the feeling of being entertained with the quality of the thing in question is a reasonable way to determine its artistic merit? Because I can be entertained for hours on end by things on the internet while at the same time acknowledge that they're utter dogshit, and I assure you there's no shortage of other people who'd tell you the same.
>>23632033The Call of Cthulhu
>>23621528I'm going to give you a "lol," but I will not give you a "lmao even."
>>23623179You can't enjoy Disco Elysium and accuse other people of vapid smugness. That's just not how this works.
>>23632033Hitchhiker's Guide to the GalaxyDuneThe Stainless Steel RatThe Stars, My DestinationI am LegendThe Dying EarthOh you want me to mention non- SF/F?Don QuixoteGulliver's TravelsKimWhite FangThe list can be eternal but there's plenty of literature, SF/F genre or not, that's just as entertaining and meaningful if not moreso.
>>23623093>MuramasaMeme VN. The only reason why people kept promoting for years on /jp/ was because it was not translated for a long while and was known to have a ridiculously high number of unique kanji (+2,500, as far as I can recall). It's just chanbara/jidai geki cliches combined with some mecha stuff, nothing truly extraordinary by the standards of Japanese entertainment.The reason why people who read VNs do it is usually because of a need for immersive escapism, not exactly too different from the reason why people read romance novels/erotica in the first place. There are of course different types of VNs, like otome games, moege, nukige, and adventure novels, but most of them have fundamentally more or less the same purpose. I would never claim any moege or adventure VN has any real literary merit, or at least no more than manga that namedrop Western poets or that make weak allusions to Western novels/philosophical works. I wouldn't claim any of those Nitroplus VNs have any literary merit, any more than Michael Crichton or Dan Brown novels do, nor would I dare say that Subahibi has any more actual literary qualities than Harland Ellison/Isaac Asimov short stories that evoke some basic philosophical theme. If rosy prose and arcane vocabulary were all it took to make a work "literary", then even cheap erotic fiction with terrible thematic developments and poorly fleshed out characters that are barely different from the archetypes they are meant to represent could be sold as literary fiction.People can enjoy visual novels, but it would be incorrect to call them works of art. There is a time and place for everything, and a church is not the place for peddling.
>>23631739I'm not going to pretend video games are bad, just because you're a pseud.
>>23620635planescape torment is better than any fantasy literature
>>23631732truhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY9m2sHQwLs
>>23623208>>23623203also VtMB has decent & believable architecture which contributes to the atmosphereunlike fallout in which interiors look like they were designed by a 10 year old who just discovered squared paper and believes that everything is a maze>>23622537yes because art means there is no recipe for success... art needs investmentlook at all those driving games that are either too realistic or too arcade-y... hitting the sweet spot between those too (challenging but enjoyable, "easy to learn hard to master") is an artthe decline is most visible when we notice random stuff being used more and more in games... randomness should be an aid for the designer, not a cheap trick to add more "content"
>>23620635ITT: Pseuds and Midwits
