It depresses me that for most of human history agriculture and civilization had not yet been invented. Cavemen would have never seen a woman on the same level as even the worst of our modern females. All of their rape victims were dirty shit-covered hairy rectangular rough-footed neanderthals.

>>23620965
Even more depressing is that human civilization is one of empires rising, then falling catastrophically, where the vast majority of human knowledge is lost. The most recent "dark age" happened after the Roman Empire fell; we didn't reattain that level of civilization until the mid 18th century. Can you imagine if humanity could have kept it together? We would have gone to the moon around 600 AD. Instead, Rome allowed barbarian hordes to migrate into civilization. Just as we are now. Humanity deserves its awful fate, but it still saddens me.

Fuck, new thread dropped when I wast writing my post.

Having some trouble with getting something across and could do with some suggestions.
My dialogue is literally:

“Johnathan?”
“John, please.”

What I need to convey is that he isn’t asking to be called John because he’s being friendly, he’s insisting because he associates being called his full name with bad memories.

Trying the following:
>Hearing his full name made the hairs on the back of his neck stand on end.
>”John, please.” he insisted, a firmness in his voice.

>”John, please.” he said, firmly.
(Assuming readers might infer he’s not being friendly, but this is his first appearance so they don’t know him, and I don’t want to get off on the wrong foot)

>“It’s just John” he said, putting a stop to anymore mentions of his full name before it could happen again.

>>23620995
bit cliche maybe, but I'd just do
>"Johnatha-"
>"John."
or if that's too silly, then just
>"Johnathan?"
>"John."
I kind of got the idea that he didn't like hearing his full name from the first instance of dialog you posted. It's just that the please might make someone second-guess that assumption. No "please" and it already reads as being kind of stern and insistent.

>>23620995
I might need more information. Is he the viewpoint character as well, or just someone in the story? Are you intending on making this extremely clear in the next few sentences, or is this something for the smart reader to pick up on?

If you want to get it across without leaning on hard description, try rewriting his dialogue to be more distant or imperative. For instance,

>"I would prefer 'John'. That will do."

Besides that, the obvious suggestion is visible discomfort. "Hairs stand on end" is a bit clichéd. A wince or awkward smile can also communicate it, as would avoiding someone's gaze.

>>23620995
Adding any of the text to describe any of that is needless. You could just as well do “John” in “John, please” in italics, which would sell the firmness in his voice and imply that he said it with a particular edge. The reader should then wonder why he would be so stern as to correct it. You can go into it right there if you want but if this exchange is part of a larger conversation please stick to the topic of THAT conversation, dont sidestep it with something readers can infer.


If they can’t infer it, they shouldn’t be reading fiction in the first place imo.

>>23621018
I think you might be right, I was overcooking it. I can probably work in a scene later when they’re better acquainted where his issue with being full-named is addressed.

Thanks, Anon.

Reposting here. 3rd draft of my bike trip novel. Early chapter.

>>23621067
I was going to tack on some extra thoughts based on your reply from the previous thread but obviously you forgot your image

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>>23621067
You're right. I suck at this site.

This is the repost. 3rd draft, bike novel, early chapter, setting the tone.

>It is not very difficult to determine the essence of the “novella” as a literary genre: Everything is organized around the question, “What happened? Whatever could have happened?” The tale is the opposite of the novella, because it is an altogether different question that the reader asks with bated breath: What is going to happen? Something is always going to happen, come to pass. Something always happens in the novel also, but the novel integrates elements of the novella and the tale into the variation of its perpetual living present (duration). The detective novel is a particularly hybrid genre in this respect, since most often the something = Xthat has happened is on the order of a murder or theft, but exactly what it is that has happened remains to be discovered, and in the present determined by the model detective. Yet it would be an error to reduce these different aspects to the three dimensions of time. Something happened, something is going to happen, can designate a past so immediate, a future so near, that they are one (as Husserl would say) with retentions and protentions of the present itself. Nevertheless, the distinction is legitimate, in view of the different movements that animate the present, are contemporaneous with it: One moves with it, another already casts it into the past from the moment it is present (novella), while another simultaneously draws it into the future (tale).

>You will never know what just happened, or you will always know what is going to happen: these are the reasons for the reader’s two bated breaths, in the novella and the tale, respectively, and they are two ways in which the living present is divided at every instant. In the novella, we do not wait for something to happen, we expect something to have just happened. The novella is a last novella, whereas the tale is a first tale. The “presence” of the tale writer is completely different from that of the novella writer (and both are different from that of the novelist). Let us not dwell too much on the dimensions of time: the novella has little to do with a memory of the past or an act of reflection; quite to the contrary, it plays upon a fundamental forgetting. It evolves in the element of “what happened” because it places us in a relation with something unknowable and imperceptible (and not the other way around: it is not because it speaks of a past about which it can no longer provide us knowledge). It may even be that nothing has happened, but it is precisely that nothing that makes us say, Whatever could have happened to make me forget where I put my keys, or whether I mailed that letter, etc.? What is this nothing that makes something happen? The novella has a fundamental relation to secrecy (not with a secret matter or object to be discovered, but with the form of the secret, which remains impenetrable), whereas the tale has a relation to discovery (the form of discovery, independent of what can be discovered).
Deleuze making sense is weird.

>>23620965
>>23620985
You’re both retarded and have no real sense of history. Please never pick up a pen

>>23620995
"Jonathan?"
"I got raped once at the Floating City Casino. A little dwarf with wide hips blindsided me with the magic of his people and chucked chips worth thousands of dollarinos up my ass while whispering Jonathan seductivly. I lost something that day. the right to the name Jonathan. I just go by John now. I have to wear adult diapers."

How to write a good first person narrative like proust and not like those light novel slop?

>>23621247
read it

>>23620995
>because he’s being friendly

what makes you think that? if somebody says call me john and not jonathan it' s imply a preference. this is quite different from calling somebody Mr. whatever

>>23621087

i think the explanation is pedantic. it's okay to note it in passing but to go into it like that takes away from the story. the social media stuff is also a distraction. this is a bike trip which should have been a nice escape from the online life and now it's this online shit. totally ruins the feel of a "bike trip" story. the first part of the excerpt falls into the "I do this I do that" pattern which is not a hallmark of good writing

>>23621274
Read more good-writtrn first person story?

>>23621119
>can't refute, can only seethe
sad
many such cases

Browsing through this superpower wiki the entire day trying to think of interesting magic/abilities for future enemies
If only I were a creative person

>>23621391
The biggest enemy of mankind is not themselves but time, make something out of it if you will

>>23621287
yes! it's very important

>>23621391
Piranha hands and then he forgets about it when he has to pee

>>23621391
i can give you some tips on creativity and how to build on what you have, but i don't want to take wild shots in the dark. what are you working with so far? what can your protagonist do?
i'm not going to give you ideas, just how to make your own; however, examples will help

>>23621120
Honestly more creative than anything I’ve churned out in the last few hours.

>>23620951
I had a few in mind. These are an inner monologue
>Ah, it’s quiet…
>But it hurts a lot. Everywhere
>Where am I? How did I get here?
>Who is that? Why is he coming closer?
>I can see his movements so clearly… Or is it just me thinking fast?
>Am I fighting him? But why?
>…Why to this extent?
>Oh… It’s raining. Raining hard… Peacefully… What’s that feeling?
>…That I’ve been here before? Deja Vu? No, it’s too distinct of a feeling…
>It’s just like…. Last… Time
>……..No.
>You….
>You said you could go higher, right? Because I’m gonna soar.

>>23621430
My main character is still slowly discovering his powers and doesn't get to choose them. So far they're general physical enhancements and regeneration, but he'll also be developing into anti-magic eventually.
One of the 'party members' is basically an ice mage that's leaning towards being a melee hybrid
Another is essentially creating golems/puppets out of raw materials
I'm happy with the directions I can take these three and a few other side characters; just trying to think of powers for some future villains/enemies that isn't just 'he does this element magic,' you know?

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>write a fanfic to unwind
>it turns into essays about health studies, Art of War, and Machiavelli disguised as prose
Why is my brain like this? Why can't I keep it simple?

>>23621514
How can I make my stories more philosophical? Reading more philosophical literature?

>>23621533
Well, that could be a start.

>>23620953
GODS i wish that were me

>>23620965
Okay, and? Gorillas don't find us attractive so I don't see your point.

>>23621544
The caveman or the woman? I would have assumed the former but I can't be so sure when you write the 'i' in lower case.

My story sucks ass. When do I throw it in the trash?

>>23621694
Two months after not gaining much traction on royalroad, apparently
Then you toss it up on kindle a month before you release another story on there for algorithm bonus

>>23621468
sorry ended up napping;
>general physical enhancements and regeneration
these are very passive/reactive powers: big health big damage.
i do believe you could make this interesting regardless, but consider something more active.

you should probably get off references/sites. give yourself quiet time. im talking maybe, 30min-1hr of clear mind, no screens or distractions. this is something a lot of professional creatives try to do

then consider what sort of effect your villain should have on the party. how might his abilities help achieve that effect?
how much we know about them and how his history might have shaped what he's capable of?
what is/COULD your party afraid of?

let your mind wander, think about emotions, symbolism, etc. get weird.. then, start trying test scenes.

i'm still napping, apparently. but i think that's clear enough

>>23621694
can i read some of it?

I'm currently unable to write in my own room, house even, due to some external disturbances. Where should I write then? I was thinking of cafe but I was scared going there alone, impossible for me to ask my some of my friends because we'll ended up hanging out instead of me writing my story. Help me

>>23621910
There are these mysterious places the ancients once called "libraries", where people go read and write in peace and quiet.

>>23621924
>write
>library
Legit never heard of it

>>23621948
Libraries usually have tables that you can work at, and even computers you can use to an extent.

>>23621959
Larger ones even have wholeass office rooms you can reserve/rent if you want to pretend to be important and absolutely can't suffer the sight of plebs.

I'm writing a story about a demon who gets exiled from Hell for providing comfort to a soul serving out their sentence. His punishment is that Satan sends him to Earth to live as a human. He doesn't understand how this is a punishment. Eventually he realizes he's incapable of showing love and will harm anyone he tries to love because of his nature, making his punishment clear.

>>23621959
>>23621992
Very well, I'll try to look for a library, thanks

>>23622005
>incapable of showing love
How would that even work?
Is he incapable of saying a kind word or doing good deeds?

>>23622113
No, he is intellectually refined, but emotionally deadened. In Hell, he didn't feel attachments or desires, so this didn't bother him. As a human, he retains his intellectual refinement and emotional deadness, but now feels desires and attachments. So he wants love, but cannot engage in it. When it starts to come about, he tries to understand and calculate it logically, and this always blows up in his face and drives people away.

>>23622124
That makes more sense.
Sounds interesting but hard to pull off, good luck.

>>23622005
I'm somehow writing a more fucked up version of that, more or less.

Why is starting out always so intimidating? It feels like once you have something down you can just keep going, but starting a story turns me into an anxiety-ridden wreck.

>>23622330
Cuz.
Just write

>>23622330
Executive functioning disorder, if we're talking anons; not having a realized vision, in the more general sense. I usually fill half a notebook full of notes before I even start writing and already have things to copy in and "edit".

>>23621281
Cheers for the bike trip feedback. The social media stuff is supposed to be part of a commentary on how these technologies are unnecessarily seeping into authentic experiences. This develops. By the end, social media and technologies are used less and less or ignored. The explanation will be tightened, then. It's meant to be a bit pedantic, because I'm establishing Ben's character as such.

The "I do this, I do that" is, unfortunately, my style. It works sometimes. Sometimes not. Glimpses into my head are pretty rare - my prose is mostly descriptive, which is how I'm hoping to communicate, implicitly, how I feel and perceive things.

>>23622376
>Executive functioning disorder
>Search
>Read
God damnit. Okay so how do anons normally get around that?

>>23622411
We don't. We crash & burn, as we are meant to.

>>23622124
So you're writing about a person with schizoid PD.

>>23620965
Extreme midwit take, come back when 18

>>23622414
Alright, thanks anyways. Gonna sit in a corner and slowly die inside or something then.

>>23622433
Lol. Wasn't my point.
My point was that you can work on your executive function, but recognize your limits, and work within the confines of your particular strengths.
You asked me how you can learn to be "not you." I don't know how you'd do that. Have you tried being you? I don't know how you'd do that either.
Have you not tried being you? I bet you could.

>>23622440
Basically there's no 'work around' so much as 'working with,' is what you're saying. I'm not sure what trying to be me looks like, but I'll just keep giving it what I can. Thanks, your words did kinda help.

>>23620953
The woman should be hairy too

>>23622066
>>23621992
I'm a third worlder and sadly the only service libraries in my region offer are vitrine shopping. Maybe I should try writing at a park bench, but I'm also afraid local friends will show up to pester me. Unsurprisingly, there are more dedicated monkey earrape sex spots than literary ones.

Where do you upload your stories nowadays?

>>23622510
>AO3
>RR
>SB
>KU

>>23622411
I had to learn how I feel about things and pull the trigger on any decision. Some shit is utterly irrelevant and you have to put anything in. You can always fix it later: great is the enemy of good and good is the enemy of doing anything at all.

>>23620953
I have a tribe that shoots beams out of their forehead like Combustion Man and P'Li from Avatar

I wanted the tribe to tattoo members who can use it as a mark of respect and pride, but I didn't really want to use an eye. What are some other good shapes?

>>23622515
is scribblehub not worth it?

>>23622548
Think of something else that might emit light. The sun, flames maybe. Or there’s no set shape to the design, but the tattoos are boiluminescent.

>>23622548
That's a worldbuilding topic.

>>23620995
"Johnathan?"
"John, please."
"John, please what?"
"Would you please call me John instead of Johnathan?"
"Ok I'll be pleased to call you John!"

It'll fit right in with your cliche writing style.

>>23622560
Snail ghost town + broke fetish people + bad hud

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>>23621544
What's stopping you

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>Hate generic anime girl moeblobs
>Much prefer girls with some personalities and banter in my manga
>Look over to my book
>The most important character in the story, the reason the entire plot happens, the one the protagonist's life revolves around for the moment they meet is... a young and pretty mute girl in an almost catatonic state
Shit, I need to fix this. I have other women in the book, and I think there's nothing wrong with them (there's the woman who joins the main group in act 2, supporting characters sprinkled throughout, the most bloodthirsty antagonist is one and the number 2 of the "get shit done" villain is one as well), but it rubs me the wrong way that I'm carrying this plank o' wood around, even if I have perfectly good reasons for her to be like this.

>>23622616
Variety is important I think. Having a mix of both is good.

>>23622616
Ok I got it... you are making a sleeping beauty novel now. The mute catatonic girl is kissed by the great protagonist and turned back into the banterous and most full of personality character just like the others. Now you have made them have a character arc! More advice to come in another transmission.

FUCK I keep using “as though” and “as if” too much.

>He spoke as though ______
>Her arms moved as if they __________

There’s a running theme about some characters being almost disconnected from their bodily autonomy so I can’t cut out all the uses of them because the descriptions that follow are kind of important. What the fuck other options do I have?

>>23622637
Quick google search for you aspiring writer:
"in such a way that"
"seemingly"
There are many more but you must search yourself adventurer!

>>23622616
Unironically, just turn them into a boy instead. Lean into the paternal Father/Son instinct instead of “muh sweet, mysterious princess” angle. It could be more compelling and subversive if you do it right.

>>23622645
The worst part is, I used seemingly and the sentence went like:
>He didn’t rush, seemingly stalling for time as though he wanted to be interrupted

It’s like a fucking brainworm that I can’t get out fml

>>23622617
Yeah but she still feels too passive, even considering the few things she does prior to the climax I have planned for her. I think I will remove the "mute" part and just have her speak nonsense, to keep the barrier of communication going while making her more active in the plot. So instead of her being mute, she might speak as if she was straight out of a fairy-tale, or a myth.

>>23622637
>He spoke like...
>His tone was that of...
>Her arms felt as/felt like...
Or just go for a metaphor, "her arms were two lead weights at her sides".

>>23622585
My clichee ridden sloppa will be perfectly digestible to the masses that are quick to part with their shekels.

>>23622670
Thanks, Anon. To be honest I’m being a bit too granular over this as a first draft, but I’m just trying to break the habit before it becomes worse. I’m trying not to go too heavy on the metaphors which I think is what lead me into the trap of the as ifs/as thoughs. Just trying to find that balance.

>>23622637
i like to use “like some” way too much.

i blame reading Blood Meridian in 2016 and thus overturning my grammatical and writing sense for over 4 years. i became a much better writer by the end of it just through relearning grammar, punctuation, and figuring things out from Blood ameridian without much writing of my own. it was an experience.

>>23622661
>He didn't rush, stalling for some time.
Let the reader decide what it means. Unless you have a narrator with opinions making his own value judgement, or a free and indirect voice of a character doing the same. Save your analogies for when something is like something else.

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>>23622548
why would the tattoo necessarily have to have anything to do with their laser beam powers instead of being more abstract. If they can all do it, then it becomes mundane to them. It won't occupy a special place of significance in their culture. Or, well, it can, but what I mean is that they won't find it anywhere near as interesting as would foreigners (to them) who can't shoot lasers, simply on account of the fact that it's not novel, so naturally they would not be inclined to center all facets of their culture around it.
centering everything around this one power borders on planet of the hats

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>>23622682
>I’m trying not to go too heavy on the metaphors which I think is what lead me into the trap of the as ifs/as thoughs.
My man, if you're using as if/as though it's a simile, not a metaphor.

>>23622719
Sorry I should have been clearer, I meant my aversion to overusing metaphors led me to into a trap of relying on similies instead, which I’m now overusing. I’m moving on from the section for now, so I’ll see how I feel about it later on with fresher eyes.

>>23622687
>Using McCarthy as a basis for learning
You’re a brave soul, Anon. His style is brutal to dig through. I always come away from McCarthy with my perceptions on how books are *supposed* to read completely altered.

>>23622759
it broke my faith in my prose. i actually still don’t think i’ve recovered, even if i’ve improved so massively despite my probable actual time writing only adding up to 1 or 2 years worth.

would i try to learn how to write from Blood Meridian as a young teen whose only previous exposure to the classics was Heart of Darkness? yes, i don’t regret it. but boy did McCarthy teach me, even as he strung me up on a tree with my unravelled brain.

if I have tons of hours writing smut via ERP do you think I would have naturally gained some writing experience to write for a story?

>>23622706
Not all can do it, only certain members of the tribe can do it and they're often the professional soldiers. I would in fact say most members of the tribe are not able to use it and are just ordinary people

>>23622776
for most of history, most people did not have access to the necessary resources and infrastructure to construct swords. Swords thus became symbolic of nobility to an extent, and would often take on a mythologized nature (see Tyrfing). But would you say that all cultures around the world are utterly replete with sword iconography? Like, there's definitely a fair bit of it, but does it bleed into every facet of culture? If I were to describe some guy I know as being powerful, strong, and noble, is a sword the first thing that pops into your head? (maybe it is now because I keep bringing up swords, but you get my point).
There has to be some variety. This culture must have more symbols that occupy their collective conscience than just this one "weapon" that some of them possess.

>>23622774
The bar is pretty high >>23619868

>>23622784
It's just a tattoo on the forehead of warriors, I didn't intend the symbol of it to be the only icon.

I think I'll have it vary from user to user and some have it as an eye, some as a star, some as the sun, some as a regular diamond, it's more a personal preference.

>>23622774
You'll fit right in. In the inevitable novel sex scene you will be slinging out greats like: "her secret musky swamp enveloped my swell of permanent manliness, there isn't anything quite like a dip in that deep pond!"

>>23620637
>Yeah that sounds fair as long as it doesn’t drag. You could always split the difference and go with two 2.5k ones that flow a little snappier if it’s tonally correct. My main concern would be that if your opener is too long that the reader will grow disinterested, especially if they’re one of those “One chapter before I go to sleep” types.
That's a concern. I like shorter chapters, especially early on. I get impatient if I don't get hooked ASAP, so I like to make the first few chapters brief to quickly present the main characters and major themes. The 5k word chapter mentioned previously is about 1/3rd of the way into the book.

>Nothing worse than when some character you forgot all about suddenly reappears like a Deus Ex Machina.
Yeah, it's critically important to me that major events like that be predictable by the attentive reader, but obfuscated enough to not be boring. Every time a major event happens, I ask "Why?" about 20 times and make sure there's adequate support for it ahead of time, and then ask "So what?" about 20 times to make sure the consequences of the event fully manifest so I don't end up with situations like, "This big thing happened but it made no impact on the characters or story."

>I think it would keep readers invested if they all ended just before the moment so you can keep them hanging/speculating then open Book 2(?) with a bang
I do that for a different event. The "scientists in hiding" plotline builds and brings characters together and just as they're preparing for a major conflict the event from the other plotline happens.

Book 1 ends with the chaos following the first event, and the characters from the 2nd event preparing for their own event.

Book 2 starts with some brief aftermath of the major event in Book 1 and then tries to keep the momentum up with the second plotline's conflict. Which then rolls right into the conflict in the third plotline that clarifies the stakes and the bigger picture.

There's a lull as the characters regain their bearings, introspect, and travel. The reader gets to see the broader effects these events have had on the world. Then tension and action slowly picks up as characters come together, or are driven together, for the final conflict of Book 2.

>Are you thinking of literally splitting them into separate releases, or essentially having one large tome that contains 3 “books”?
I'd want to intertwine/interleave them if they were all in one tome, so 3 stand-alone books would probably be my choice if I can't fit them all into one book comfortably.

>>23622774
yeah just throw in a basic plot in which the sex-havers own a coffee shop or something. You're much more likely to make it as a writer creating pornography for women than anything else.

>>23622790
>>23622803
I don't do that though, my writing style is greatly influenced by dark fantasy and dostovetsky

>>23622776
Have you considered an alternative to a tattoo? Do the tribe wear any clothes at all? Perhaps those capable of Shoopdawooping could wear something like a headpiece with a section cut away that the beam can emit from. Maybe it’s made from a precious material or adorned with some feathers that only they can wear. Depending on your world’s history, there could be some misapprehension in other cultures that the headdress is what gives them the ability, leading to some shock when they discover the power is innate.

I’m assuming based on you mentioning an Eye that there might be some spiritual connection there, so maybe look into third eye chakras and what not and the symbology there. Maybe they could be blindfolded as they’ve ascended the need for regular sight and the “open” eye, that they can blast out of is all they need instead.

Idk if any of this will help, but it might steer you away from the more obvious trope of tribes tattooing the shit out of themselves, should you wanna change it up a bit. Not that there’s anything wrong with using a commonly known visual.

>>23622808
Have you considered catering to the cumpuck aucience?

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>>23622815
I wanted them to be tattooed as their overall people are based off the southern Barbarian Chinese (nanman/baiyue), and I had two other sister tribes but they don't use tattoos. I wanted at least one tribe to have a tattoo tradition even if it was only for a small sect.

I also intended the tattoo to enhance their abilities to a minor degree like how the combustion users in Avatar have them.

I'm interested in writing philosophic dialogues just like Plato does. Any tips?

>>23622968
Record yourself drunk with friends than trascribe it with proper language.

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Turns out writing actual political intrigue, and not just a bunch of dudes trying to assassinate/magic to death one another, is really fucking hard.

>>23622968
uh, study rhetoric? you probably won't find a lot of info about that itt though

>>23622992
I was writing about nobles pursuing their own goals and having to deal with and plan around various obstacles that came up, and realized I was writing tons of political intrigue without ever even intending it.

I'm writing a thing for myself, it's modern fantasy ~like. the two characters that we follow are Abbigail &' Ike, but there are last names and nicknames that I'm concerned just won't "hit quite right."

> Ike could be short for "Isaiah," "Isaac," or "Isadore," and I can't decide which is most befitting of him.
> his last name, I have as Rayner, and it... kinda... plays into the "rainy-day" motif I have for him. but is there something better I can use?
> should middle names even matter at all? or do nobody care about them?

> Abbigail could be shortened to "Abby" or "Gail," which one fits better? or should I just not bother in the first place, and stick with saying the full "Abbigail" every time?
> I have her last name as "Moonview" or possibly "Moonvieux," and the moon is very important to her iconography. is this name good, or is there a better one?
> same question about middle names; worth it, or worthless?

> I have an "antagonist," and he needs two names: an anonymous title given by the protags who don't know his true identity, and then his real name.
> the anon title I gave him was just "The Masked Man," because of his prominent intimidating mask. is this fine? or is there something better?
> his true identity is "Wollævir," but I'm indecisive on the last name. so far I have Azoth, but I'm not so sure I can keep that, given that this character used to be a normal boy before he became this "force of nature," so-to-speak.

am I asking these questions in the wrong place?

>>23622998
>rhetoric
Plato would not approve

>>23623145
Middle names absolutely do not matter. Even surnames probably don't matter either unless familial/clan association is relevant to the story somehow.
>his true identity is "Wollævir," but I'm indecisive on the last name. so far I have Azoth
Wollaevir sounds really Icelandic, or otherwise just generally germanic. Azoth is obviously Hebrew. The combination of the two really just does not work. Pick one or the other.

>>23623145
Abby sounds like the name for a young girl, Gail a name for an older woman. Abbigail sounds very 1800s. Do whichever fits your story better.

I hate making up last names. Usually I just never mention them and keep everyone having a first name only. For the rare times I do need a last name, I look at what role the person has, then search the top 100 languages for what a related word translates to and use that. Like I have a hunter, he hunts boars. In Lithuanian 'boar' is šernas, so I used Sernas as his last name.

>>23623183
thank you, this actually helped a lot more than you'd think.
I had always assumed that the etymology for Azoth was just Latin or something, maybe Babylonian or something, but I guess not. I'll do some research.

But since you're here, I've got one last question: can whispering be intimidating?
every other villain I've seen that tries to be ÜBER~Intimidating and scary tends to do similar things to each other; deep, loud voice, booming volume maybe with an echo, typical stuff. but I wanted to try something different: whispering very fast.
Masked Wollævir isn't really like a villain, where he's fighting against the protags. he has already "won." you're in his world, and there's not much else you can really do about it. he's like a force of nature, like calamity or time or gravity. you can't fight those concepts. what my protags fight against are the RESULTS of the masked man's actions from ages ago. so, as this "force-a'-nature," Wollævir doesn't bother with "intimidation," or "superiority." he doesn't need a booming voice, especially since I can count how many lines he has on one hand.
his voice is just a whisper that you can hear from any distance, fast words. conveying a sense of "it doesn't matter; I've already completed my goal."
or is this idea gay?

>>23623253
nice idea/method, I can use that one plenty! if you don't mind, that is?

> about Abbigail
Abbigail is a kid, and I wrote her to be everything wonderful a person could possibly be. she's the embodiment of kindness, love, purity, forgiveness safety/comfort, all that good stuff.
even though she's the main character, and I DESPERATELY want readers to see her the way that I do, it also makes me worried that she'll be a Mary Sue. because of this, I've been occasionally bouncing the perspective to Ike every once in a while, since he's MUCH more flawed (and easier / more fun to write).
any tips on that?

>>23623270
>can whispering be intimidating?
maybe if it's like the personal mutterings of a mad man, which
>"it doesn't matter; I've already completed my goal."
kind of makes it seem like. If he's meant to be more lucid, it would seem silly imo.
If the impression that you're trying to give is that he's in a position of absolutle supremacy over the characters and is just kind of bored or dispassionate about what's going on because, at least in his mind, the conclusion is already foregone, then what might work better is having him not whisper, but just rarely talk. His view of the universe is so deterministic because everything is so absolutely certain to him that he doesn't even see the characters as people. Just flesh automatons acting out a pre-created script. So he doesn't even talk to them, indulge any of their questions, show malice or sympathy or whatever. He just kind of watches them blankly.

>>23623288
that probably has to be the best description of Masked Wollævir I've ever heard.
and yes, he RARELY ever talks. I can count the number of lines he has on one hand. he just kinda stands in the background, makes sure everything is going the way he's planned it to be, and then he leaves without so much as raising a finger.

>>23623283
>nice idea/method, I can use that one plenty! if you don't mind, that is?
Go for it. I find that way it ties in more to the character's background than just using some random name generator. Also you can look at genus names for animals and plants. They have a Latin origin, but you can change the spelling to make it more English. Lots of good names for cities or other locations can come about that way, I find. Makes them feel older and even mythological.

Swear to god if I wrote lotr it'd be a couple pages long with "and then they did the thing" at the end.
Really need to figure out how to construct long term conflicts/arcs better with more fluff.

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Sometimes I write posts in these threads and then I delete them simply because the exercice of writing the part I'm stuck and why I'm stuck helps me find an interesting angle.

>MC meets a doctor
>Enquires about a patient of his
>Doctor lies and tells him he doesn't know who he's talking about, MC knows he's lying cuz magic
>The scene is meant to be a "refresher" : this is the beginning of the story, and we've followed the MC through chapter 1, then went to another protagonist in chapter 2. In chapter 3, I want to remind people what kind of characters they're dealing with : someone who is very driven in what they perceive to be their mission, but struggling to be a "people person" because of their status, so they come across as cold. This contrast the second main character, who has no problem being chummy but is emotionally dead inside.
>The patient is someone who, at some point, shared the MC's status, and the MC attempts to meet them to get some information
>The reason the doctor pretend to not know the patient is actually because he's hiding the fact the MC was also, at some point, sick and emprisoned within the hospital, but lost his memories of that and left, and he's afraid of his reaction
>This will however only be revealed later. In this particular chapter, the MC will uncover a more mundane secret and believe that the doctor simply wanted to keep him out because the patient asked him to receive no visitors, and he will walk out satisfied, barely noticing the side glances nurses give him in the halls.

Thanks /wg/, it really helped me out to type this

>>23620953
First time writer here writing some historical fiction. Does this story sound retarded to you guys?
>set in 1220-1242 backdrop of Mongolian invasion of Hungary
>István is a first born son of a Hungarian Lord, later disinherited for being weak, his younger brother becomes next in line
>sent to a monastery to study
>gets really good at learning about anatomy and even cuts open dead bodies in secret
>gets recruited to serve King Bela
>mongols throw over dead bodies with plagie during the siege of Trogir. King evacuates family but decides to fight on.
>main character uses his skills as a medieval anatomist to deal with the plague and serve his people eventually becoming a hero in his own way despite his lack of martial abilities
Title: Pestilence Prince

>>23623373
It's vastly easier to add more details to broad strokes, than jump from making dense and detailed to getting the whole story out.

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>guy sings song like picrel (Kazakh song about two lovers) to girl
>Girl says she is just like the girl
>Tells him she would rather die than be with an undeserving man like him
how grudgeworthy is this? I wanted the grudge he has against her to be quite deep.

>>23623457
Are you trying to get across that the secret the main character uncovers is unimportant/not the real secret to the reader? Sounds a little meh if you don't include some way for the reader to piece it together.

Also if the protag knows the doctor is lying because of "magic" then how does he not know that the doctor has told him a more mundane secret and he has nothing else to hide? Shouldn't he know he's not telling him the whole truth?

>>23623600
Incel school shooter tier to hold a grudge because someone rejected you.

>>23623600
you need a bigger reason for the grudge unless the character holding the grudge is a baby.

>>23623641
>>23623646
he is meant to be villainous (inspired by Homelander) albeit somewhat sympathetic like how Homelander got that fucked up childhood in a lab

>>23623654
At least make the rejection publicly humiliating or something so he's got more reason. Like proposing at a party or in front of a crowd, anything. Then depending on the character's ego and pride, you can double down on the shame aspect of it

>>23623654
have her lead him on into some bdsm ritual and leave him tied up to the bed while she lights his balls on fire and films it. Way bigger reason to hold a grudge!

>>23620953
Since people don’t read much anymore, I’ve been thinking the right place for a writer now is more in writing with the intention of it either being an audiobook or “basically an audiobook” with minimal visuals on a video platform.
But if you want any kind of traction, even if the whole thing is done you have to have it trickle out in pieces and it turns into a PR job.
Can’t decide if it’s worth it.

>>23623692
Isn't reading bigger than ever? Royalroad is still growing and kindle/amazon is absolutely massive. You just have to know how to work the algorithm and get lucky.

>>23623638
No, ideally, the reader should think the same thing the main character does when it comes to the secret: the doctor was hiding his patient out of professionnal obligation, but when the MC would give him his credentials he would let him through. A small secret done mostly for the sake of not making it too easy for the character to meet the man, and give readers another simple application before the supernatural elements start to ramp up. The hints that something is wrong would be fairly mundane, such as nurses looking at him a bit too much, or the fact that he meets the man he came to see in a completely emptied area save for the two of them. He would chalk it up to the doctor making arrangement for them to not be disturbed but would later come to realize that the doctor just didn't want the other patients to risk recognizing him too

The reason he is able to sniff out the first secret but not the deeper one is simply related to the way the story works, but essentially He can see when people have secrets (but he needs to deduce what those secrets actually are) because he is an agent of the setting's God of Secrets, which feeds off them. So by revealing them he actually feeds his god. He believes this is a mutual beneficial deal because the god gets fed, and he gets to know when people lie to him, which is useful in his job. However, a major twist in the story will be that he will discover that his past self tried to break free of that, and in relatiation the god just rewrote his memories and personality, as well as simply placing a blanket over anything that could clue him in on that. It's not perfect though (because I prefer my deities to be slightly feral and not very in-touch with human subtelty) which is how cracks will eventually reveal themselves.

>>23623672
Anon it's inspired by Homelander, not by the gross Boys universe overall

>>23623658
That's a good idea, I like the public humiliation part

>>23623692
Write a literary novel where your fantasy world is a metaphor for being a tranny or depression or whatever and get tradpubbed.

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>>23623719
The worst part of pursuing something cynically is the humiliation of failing anyway.
>>23623696
Hmm I guess it isn’t as grim as I thought.

>>23623731
Here's the problem. Name 10 authors you've read who wrote a book in the genre you write in the past 10 years. It shouldn't be hard.

>>23623739
Right.

>>23623739
1. Brandon Sanderson
2. Jackie Chan

I just want to write the web novel equivalent of a battle shonen

>>23623739
The thing keeping me going is royalroad patreon numbers. Absolutely mediocre sloppa authors are making five thousand united states dollary doos a month if not more

>>23623731
>chart
I've heard it was the exact opposite. Sanderson said 80% of his sales are from ebooks.

>>23623779
no way. impossible!

>>23623793
I know, breaking news. I'm just saying there's a market.

>>23623791
From what I know of Sanderson that’s because his entire reader base is from shilling on Reddit or something. All online marketing.

>>23623779
So, ~$34,000 a year after fees and taxes if you don't have a good jewish financial advisor or your own small business jewry skills. Not great, not terrible considering.

>>23623813
dude, 55k a year is good. That's above the average in the US

careful, lads
you're gonna summon the anti-genre/anti-slop/anti-writing-for-money poster

>>23623813
You also have to consider that you're doing something you like rather than torturous soulless work, so it really just depends on your priorities.

>>23623813
in what fucking world does $60k gross annual income turn into 34,000, lol?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you think what Patreon displays publicly is pre-fees, but that's not true. If it shows 5k monthly, that is after all fees and essentially what the user is making as gross income.

>>23623849
>15.3%FICA tax due to being self employed
>no meaningful deductions, a fully loaded MBP only deducts a grand a year for 3 years
It comes out to less than you think before you even talk income tax. Self employment is rough.

>>23623840
It's better than some alternatives, but you really have to consider if it's worth it, especially if you aren't a top earner.

>write fantasy
>readers complain the language is too modernized
>i don't know how to write, Clareth betook Belgem with a grasp fiercer than the great serpent Panera.
"Aye, the great sword Panera shalt leath young Clareth to destiny. Worthy of your grandfather's name."
"Lord Killborn, this sword has browned-whittle growth on the edges. How can it be the sword of destiny?"
"Young lad, doth the appearances of jesters. The most cunning are those that hide their truth behind smiles and laughter."
And so, young Clareth took the rusted blade and headed to see Muashi, the famed blacksmith of Kwatha'sets.

>>23623854
>Self employment is rough.
Not nearly as rough as you're implying. 60k turns into closer to 45k than 34k, lmao
https://www.keepertax.com/lp/g/1099-tax-calc

>>23623854
>>23623871
I don't think this calculator accounts for the standardized deduction either, so maybe closer to 50k.

>>23623871
>>23623879
who cares, it's still good money to net 30-40k a year.

>>23623885
Okay? Who asked? I was commenting on how 60k doesn't turn into 34k, not whether 34k is good money.

Love is more unrealistic than elf magic.

>>23623864
Not everything has to be strictly middle English just because it's fantasy. Unless you're using modern slang, you should be perfectly fine. Post a sample and we'll give feedback.

>>23623813
Do burgers know how much 30Kkamalas is worth outside their McDonald's daycare? It can make you earn more and live better than a metropolitan doctor on overtime shifts.

>Ultra trad
>Bathing nude in public
Nope

>>23623930
Even within the US it depends entirely on your city/state, but I agree if you're in another country then suddenly a 'mediocre' US salary makes you a well-off motherfucker. Writing a 2k word chapter only takes a couple hours, not counting time spent beforehand planning of course. Still, practically a dream job that you can work towards on the side.

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Which of the two terms between "Starseeds" or "Starscions" sounds better for the children of a living god?

>>23623979
Starchucks

>>23623979
Cursed.

>>23623979
Starseeds if it’s YA
Just “scions” if it’s for adults

>>23623984
The God Sneed, known as the Usurper. His scions and seeds will have to check the PH level of every planet in the known universe if they hope to keep Chuck, The Originator, imprisoned.

>>23623849
In communist north europe you get to keep 20k out of 60k

>>23624010
Excellent post

>>23624010
Reminds me I need to finish reading Voyage to Arcturus.

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>>23621087
>uses google docs

>>23624041
Is Obsidian the way to go nowadays? Or is scrivener better?

>>23624056
Personally I just have several folders of Libreoffice documents

>>23623641
>>23623646

To be fair, half the people on here would relate to seething that much over a woman. It’s fair to assumed Anon might be one of them.

>>23624056
I’m using Scrivener and I really like it. Perpetual 20% off link active right now but if you set up a NaNoWriMo account and “hit your goal” before the end of their Camp season you “Win” and get a 50% off discount for Scriv which is a steal.

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Is there any way to describe a medieval era woman dressing provocatively with clothes straining against her large breasts, without it being fetish fuel?

>>23624105
Jesus are they paying you, WTF is this post

>>23624118
There’s no way to describe it without it being cringe no
Maybe write it as a guy’s balls straining against his tights and then switch the nouns to minimize it, assuming you’re straight

>>23624146
Sadly not, I just signed up with a burner, lied about the word goal and got some money off. Thought I’d put it out there for any other poorfags.

>>23624118
It's probably always going to sound a *little* thirsty, but why not just try describing it a little bit more clinically or passively, like
>her tight clothes accentuated her curves
or
>her fitting dress left little to the imagination, highlighting her well-proportioned figure

>>23624118
Depends on the level of detail and your choice of words.
Instead of saying something like:
>her more than ample bosom was stretching the bodice to the point of breaking, her pale body desperately trying to expose itself from the near skin-tight velour dress
You could go with
>Her outfit was ill-fitting, barely covering her chest. It was uncomfortably warm and pinched at her skin; she found herself adjusting it constantly throughout the night. But it was a sacrifice she made to accentuate her figure to look good for potential suitors.

But, some horndogs will still get a kick out of the second one too so you can’t really win.

>>23624171
Internalizing it like that is actually a good idea, makes it not objectifying and clarifies that it’s to say something about her character instead of just the writer being horny.

>>23624118
"Yo Abraham, this bitch is poppin'" he licks his rotund lips in a way that makes you uneasy. "Look she dummy thick in all the right ways!" A glance in her direction reveals she is indeed the way described by your friend Jerome.

>>23623183
Lmao middle names absolutely do matter you individualist. once a family becomes big enough that the elders run out of names they'll vary with the middle names

>>23624292
>once a family becomes big enough that the elders run out of names they'll vary with the middle names
this ancedote is, of course, highly relevant to the question of naming characters in a fictional fantasy story.
Spongebob would have been high literature if only they canonically gave him a middle name, in keeping with the naming conventions of the elders of bikini bottom. Vgh...

>>23623526
Yes because you deal with the plague by burning dead bodies and keeping everyone clean and sanitized and keeping out rats first, not by cutting pestilent bodies open - that'd increase the chance of infection.
Bury more carcasses and dead bodies IRL, attain some experience

>>23623739
I can't name primary school kids here but at least they wrote manuscripts, with actual pens, requiring actual pen(wo)manship, unlike this opposed-thumb piece of action. But I'm a nostalgian, I know my hypocrisy.

>>23623837
Woops too late we're awake

>>23620965
>>>/his/

>>23620985
>>>/his/

>>23620995
'Johnathan' has some soul-searching and work to do if he can't accept his God-given name - quite literally, since it's a name in a religious tradition, although for modern audiences slightly differently spelled: either from Jona(s) or John and Nathan. Pick some.

As for the writing issue:
>I'd prefer if you called me John, please

>>23621087
Unsollicited advice: esthetics-jargon-drop the term 'Atmospherical perspective', since it's the gradient described.

>>23621247
>I
>I
>I
>me
>me
>me
>mine
>mine
>mine

>>23621391
1. Pick up pen
2. Steer thoughts
3. Jot active thoughts down
It's not thát hard. It's basically the beginning. Take some elements, earth, wind, fire, water, mingle some healing and combat into it, then some soul, family ties, blood oaths, retaliation, protection, status-altering. Don't re-invent the wheel, or if you're at a point in time and space where the wheel has not yet been invented, invent the wheel first.
Brainstorm for 50 years if we must but if we want to write it, we'll have to write it.

>>23621468
Cunning, deceiving, thieving: compare with anti-heroes and likewise mythology. Loki, Anansi, etc

>>23621514
The writing mirrors what keeps your soul occupied at the moment: there is no utilitarian use for philosophical inquiry or fanfics if the soul is at war. First things first.

>>23621694
Asses eject: no need for sucking them.

>>23622005
>Enter: culture
Soul saved

>>23622124
Contradictio in terminis
>emotionally deadened
>but feels attachment
Pick one

>>23622509
Write under your parents' roof, if you have one, there work your way writing up to a bookshelf.

>>23622510
WordPress

>>23624299
Spongebobus Bikinibottomus-Spongebobussohn

>>23622806
That all sounds pretty great and well thought out. I think from reading all of your posts that going the split route would be better, to give the reader more time to digest in between and to get them excited for what comes next. But honestly Anon, it sounds like you’ve got it all under control. Best of luck to you.

Seven thousand, two-hundred, and sixty-six days. Along the cobbled walls of the Sanctum, a frame made of petrified wood. It held a sign with sliding slots of numbers, which bore this: seven thousand, two-hundred, and sixty-six days. This signified the time that had passed since I first entered this space, and began my new, long-suffering life. Yesterday, it read, "Four Hundred and Forty-Four Days." The day before that, it read, "Nine Days."
There are no days, here, to be spoken of; time is a long, timeless constant. The sign exists purely to confuse, bewilder, and torment the mind.
Such is the nature of Hell.

The Sanctum itself, the living quarter for demons, was a cold, and unforgiving place. I do not mean that it was dirty, or even unpleasant in terms of its looks. It was more luxuriant than any of the other circles of Hell; the brick-laid floors were lined with scarlet-colored carpets that almost resembled blood, bordered by small interlocking images of birds, elephants, giraffes, jaguars, enveloped in a golden hue. All kinds of animals were represented, but in the center of each borderline, there was Man.
The walls were, of course, cavernous brimstone, jagged and raw, just like in the stories you read at Church. Much of Hell surprised me when I first got here, but that part felt eerily familiar. Humans have a better intuition about it than they probably realize.

I can recall mere glimpses of my previous, incarnated life. My "humanity." I can remember time, and how, back then, it felt like a form of torture. Each moment, I calculated the slipping of it through my fingers, knowing that the end point of birth was an inevitable death. I wasn't consciously aware of it, but deep within the recesses of my spirit, this eventuality was all I really thought about.
I was no murderer. I was not a genocidal maniac, a warlord, nor was I rapist or even a petty thief; I was rather a very common sort of man. I held a job, it's difficult to recall the details, but I remember having an office, and a position of moderate respect. I can see flashes in my mind's eye, of spreadsheets on a computer screen, of lease agreements, and bills of sale; perhaps I worked in real estate? It doesn't really matter. Nothing really matters, I can see that now, with stark clarity.
But no, I was quite common indeed. So, it came as a severe shock, when I first entered these wicked gates. My understanding was that Hell was reserved for the worst of us, for the Hitlers, the Fritzls, the Dahmers, the witches, those who worshipped at pagan sacrifice and relished in bloodlust. Truth be told, there was little of that to be found here. These kind do exist, don't get me wrong, but Hell is absolutely brimming with souls, and most of them were "normal" people; normal jobs, normal families, normal interests, normal levels of sin and charitable acts. I'm still not entirely sure what I did to wind up here.

>>23624442
a bit purple but not bad. not bad at all. I personally don't like how he already knows he's in hell. It would be far more interesting if he was confused where he was, and later assume is hell. Throw in some christian motifs and ideology to have him reach that conclusion, not so much "this is hell."

>>23624448
I have some more.

I used to fight it. I was angry, especially angry at God. Then again, I used to remember more of my original life, and this was where the anger came from. How could he do this? As I said, I was no murderer or monster, I lived as most of us live! I paid my bills, I took care of my wife, I even returned the VHS tapes I rented, two days early -- every time! Granted, many of these were pornographic in nature, but, come on. Life without sin is impossible, and God is supposed to forgive us...
That was back when I used to fight it. I caved-in long ago, though. This is where I exist, and the reasons don't really matter. You grow used to it. You can fight all you like, but it won't get you out. Hell doesn't care about your reasons, or your idea of your own innocence. Hell only cares about its reasons, which no one in Hell understands.

"Thales!"

This was not always my name; I cannot remember what my original name was. That's probably for the best.

"Thales! Are you hearing me, you petulant dog?"

I was lost in thought. Thought was all I had left. Perusing through all manner of tomes, and analyzing their contents. The Library of Infinite Knowledge, it is a more robust collection than anything to be found on Earth. It contained, quite literally, every book, every essay, every writing committed to page that humanity had ever produced. In all languages, too. Much like Earthly prisons, all a permanent resident has for nourishment, is books, and Hell provided a banquet fit for kings. The funny thing is, on Earth, books seem so enriching and significant, so profound. I loved stimulating my mind with books when I was alive. Now, though, I feel nothing. I read because I must do something to help eternity pass by. All demons participate in this.
When every book is at your disposal, you begin to realize the complete trivia of all words. For instance, earlier in the "day" (its all one, long day), I was reading the Corpus Hermetica, whereas now, I was reading a little-known work from the 17th century, "Methods for the Cookery of Fine Pottages and Other Victuals," the life's gambit of some anonymous English, peasant drunkard.
I may as well have been reading the same thing.

"For the love of--THALES!"

I felt a hard slap across my etheric "face."

"Oh-oh, uh, sorry, sir, I was lost in..."

"Never you mind that. It's time for Transport. We've got some new souls, fresh upon arrival. You really are a useless, totally useless imbecile, you know it? I'd have half a mind to punish you, but, what would I do; send you to Hell?"

>>23624448
>>23624477

Darokoth was a Daemon Praefectus, a rather pretentious title that meant something like, demonic prefect. He let out a big, maniacal laugh as he said this little joke of his. Prefects didn't hold any real power over other demons; none of us really hold any power at all. Satan has all the power here. We do have duties to attend to, and prefects are basically managers, they gather the rest of us up when it's time to attend to them. The other prefects seemed to apprehend this more readily, but Darokoth was a -- how can I put it -- Darokoth was a fucking idiot, and exceptionally cruel. The whole concept of his situation was lost on him, and he actually bowed down the day Satan made him a prefect, as if he was being knighted.
Prefects are assigned based on blindness, not competence; its a demotion. Like I said, fucking idiot, but I don't judge. None of us has that right.

As he continued to cackle, I closed my book, and proceeded to follow him toward our task. We opened the tall, imposing door, also made of petrified wood, and began our descent down the spiral staircase that seemed to go on for eternity. It didn't, really, we'd get to the bottom soon enough, but timelessness has a way of making every descent feel never-ending. The torchlamps flickered upon the walls, a blue-green flame, and between these were pictured notable demons of bygone eras; Beezlebub, Molech, Bozo the Clown. Apparently, they had departed from Hell long ago. I'm not quite sure how, but no one ever explains anything, so I don't bother to ask.

Finally, we reached the bottom, and the smell hit me immediately -- a nauseating nasal-cacophony of putrid sulfur, burning flesh (despite the lack of any bodies to speak of), and something that always reminded me of rotting garbage. There was also a hint of metallic rust, like the scent of old, congealed blood. By contrast, the Sanctum had no scent at all. I was never sure which was preferable. Every time I retired to my unit, I was glad to be rid of the stench, but within minutes, I'd be thinking, "at least it had a stench."

>>23624479
NTA but I really like what you’ve posted so far. BUT I fucking hate
>Darokoth was a Daemon Praefectus, a rather pretentious title that meant something like, demonic prefect.

I think it’s because the translation is so obvious that using ’something like’ doesn’t make sense, it's a very literal translation, nothing could get lost there.

Took a shot at rewriting it instead of working on my own shit and came up with:
>Dakoroth held the title of Daemon Praefectus, which sounds almost ominous at first, but it loses its lustre when you realise it’s no more than a pretentious way of saying 'Demon Prefect’. Hell’s hall monitors.

Otherwise though, this is a fun read so far. Your opener was really strong.

>>23624498
Thank you and I'll take what you've said under consideration

>>23624477
I don't really like all caps on exclamations

Writers, write a drabble fanfic where famous fantasy protagonists meet each other.

>>23624541
Anon, I'm in my thirties.

>>23624477
Now it' just completely collapses under itself. He first has vague memories, then suddenly starts remembering he has a wife, returned VHS, and other comedy skits that weren't apparent in the first paragraph. Then it goes back to having a vague recollection of his name. He can return tapes to blockbuster and has a wife, but not remember his own name? Silly. The use of 4th wall breaking also destroys the prose. He's narrating what he sees and we're with him, not him addressing us his random philosophical nonsense. Stick with a perspective, you're head hopping in first person.

The third paragraph completely changes in prose again. Now he sounds like an angry teenager.

>>23624546
Okay, maybe that was a bad prompt or something.

>>23624345
How would one ever be able to feasibly work that term into the dialogue? Far too on the nose.

>>23624550
I dont agree.

>>23624560
That's fine if you don't. Literature is subjective.

>>23624563
I agree.

>>23622489
Even back then, women plucked, also they never fart

i'm writing a xianxia and some-22,000 words have passed by and I still haven't gotten to the actual power system yet - instead i've focused almost solely on the setup for the character arcs for the two protagonists and describing the setting i've created.

how fucked am i for initial readership retention if i'm posting to RR?

>>23624591
That's like 11 chapters? You want some action even if it's not explained
Do a flash forward of a cool fight scene in the first chapter or like a an unrelated fight between higher level combatants

>>23624002
Shit I wanted it to be readable for both.

I think Scions as a general term and "Star Scions" as the technical term (but rarely used) would be good then

>>23624591
As long as it's interesting and building toward something with a sense of progress
If it's 22k words of no progress toward anything, then you are fucked
Though I question how you write a xianxia without getting to the power system. All of society tends to revolve around cultivators in those settings

>>23624607
I like scions better than star scions. Star scions feels less ambiguous, in a bad way. Scions is apt enough without hammering it. And if the reader doesn't get it, they will in context, or they'll look it up and learn a new word. Just my opinion.

>>23624602
thanks for the advice, i suppose i'll figure out a way to shoehorn a fightscene into my prologue just to bait readers in.

>>23624612
thanks also, the reason why there's no power system introduced yet is because the central protagonist is a cripple (and stays one) - the course of the first volume has him being essentially groomed by a 13-year-old sociopath gary tsu into being the latter's mentor. i'll just paste the blurb here:

THE APPRENTICE FOR HONOUR / THE MENTOR FOR VENGEANCE

Once the favoured heir of the famed Niue Clan, Yenri Niue was stripped of his promised birthright after being crippled by an assassin of unknown affiliations. Now a bitter, jaded phantom, he seeks nothing more than to escape the mockery and patronization of his former peers and forget his past. But even after he is banished to a newly annexed village in the outskirts of the clan’s dominion, Yenri soon comes to realize that no matter where he run, the torment of his unfulfilled destiny will never cease its haunting of him.

Everything changes, however, when he meets Veyin Hade, the mysterious, outcast son of the village’s former chieftain. A prodigy in his own right, Veyin seeks to cultivate his immense talents to gain the power to reclaim his village's independence from the Niue Clan. To this end, he demands the once-genius Yenri to become his mentor... and in exchange, promises to unravel the plot behind the latter’s downfall and deliver its perpetrators divine punishment.

His spirit rekindled, Yenri acquiesces to the youth’s offer, and thus do the two form a pact: Yenri to wreak vengeance upon the ones which ruined him, and Veyin to redeem his family’s lost honour. Before they can advance towards their goals, however, the pair must first compensate for Veyin’s years of missed training, as the youth faces an imminent duel and vital martial competition. Straining their knowledge and talent to their very limits, the two begin a partnership which will, unbeknownst to them, upend the very foundations of the lands they inhabit.

>>23624541
The gaudily-dressed older gentleman furrowed his brow as he watched the enthusiastic young boy bound up the walkway. "And who might you be, my lad?" he asked.
"I'm Milo!" he gushed. "I used to think nothing was worthwhile, then I took a fantastic trip to another world through a phantom tollbooth, and now I'm filled with zest for life!"
The old man smiled. "I've been there. Wonderful, terrifying place."
Milo's eyes widened. "I've always wanted to visit your candy factory!"
Mr. Wonka smiled. "Step inside, my boy. Your next adventure is about to begin!"
>>23624546
I'm in my fifties. You just aged prematurely.

>>23624623
Why does Wonka sound like he's playing rapey Santa?

>>23624607
That works. Something about “star[noun]” is just a bit childlike. Like the gods in warrior cats are called starclan

>>23624616
Maybe I'll leave it as a joke. When people are coming up with what to call them, someone goes "Star Scions" and the others reply "too wordy"

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How often do you allow yourself to use an exclamation mark? Writers like Elmore Leonard say you're only allowed to add one "!" for each 100k words even though the hack wrote them at the rate of 49. It's a very confusing matter, especially when trying to write younger characters who speak more empathically.

>>23624633
>ctrl+f "!"
>zero results
nothin' personnel, kid
actually there are about 57 results

>>23624633
Rarely, and only ever in dialogue. Never ever not in dialogue.

>>23620965
That would've been pre-history, not history.

>>23624633
I tend to use it during an action sequence or conversation.

>>23623654
Perhaps a scenario where they were together, he made a bunch of sacrifices for the relationship, she feigned reciprocation, and then when the consequences of those sacrifices became visible, she bailed.

>>23624642
>>23624637
Similarly, the more a reader sees a grammatical artifice being used, the more neutered it becomes, to the point of turning into mere colloquialism. Limit exclamations to one or two per chapter, so as to not deprive the reader of genuine surprise, awe and shock

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>>23624663
I was intending for them to be childhood friends and she enjoyed having a worshipper and orbiter. As they grew older, they both studied at a cosmopolitan city.

The boy was of a tribe most considered savage and dangerous, has a physical defect, and tends to be a bit of a clown and inadvertently embarrassed the girl a few times.

She gets fed up and tells him to fuck off essentially, which stings more than expected because while she made friends easily in the new city, he didn't and she was his only friend.

If i open my first chapter with a short action snippet will it just make the readers mad?
A lot of stories do this but it usually ends up happening pretty quickly.
I was thinking like 50 ish pages later

>>23624677
That sounds like one of those Steam stalker grudges. I get that he's a villain, but does he also have to be a creep?

>>23624684
I intended his grudge simply to be he dislikes talking to her and tries to avoid her

He doesn't like, actively stalk her and do shit though.

I did intend his greatest flaw to be his grudge holding nature. I originally wanted him to have a giant book of grudges like a Dwarf in Warhammer Fantasy but I feel that is too autistic.

>>23624690
Oh. That's cool. Not really a "deep" grudge, but that works.

>>23624637
what do you when you have a protracted back-and-forth with two people screaming at each other?
Using periods almost seems more stupid than using lots of exclamation marks.

>>23624698
If there are two people screaming at each other, it's a redflag telling they're about to die

>>23624633
I don't understand the hate for them. They serve a purpose like any grammar. It's silly not to use them for their intended role.

>>23624696
I was thinking deep as in long-lasting, rather than him doing fucked up shit. Kind of more a petty jerkass to her, like:
>she decides to try and reconcile with him, greets him after a long time apart
>he goes "I'm surprised you could tolerate the agony of my company. Have you come to enlighten me with your unmatched wisdom?"

Or something like that. Also he'd flaunt his new lover a great deal

>>23624627
Because you're projecting. You should do something about that. Also, you're not allowed to complain unless you write your own drabble on the same topic.

>>23624677
Wait until you’re less retarded to write
Maybe five years

>>23620953
any of you boys writing romance for kindle and if so hows it going?

>>23624785
Can't, in five years I'll be retarded and gay as well

>>23624734
If he a woman?

>>23620953
The woman pretended to be naive and frightened so dumb Grug could feel accomplished

>>23624811
Not bad. It's about a teen girl that romances a handsome demon. But she's really selling her soul to him and in the end he claims it and sends her to hell.

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>post a chapter where I feel I found the right track in terms of prose and things pick up
>it's the first chapter to get no comments or new followers
What possessed me to write a web novel again? This shit drives you nuts

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>>23624865
He has been heavily influenced by his new lover in a sort of relationship like picrel

>>23621418
>>23621724
>>23624366
Thanks brothers, I had some great revelations on what I want to do earlier. A relaxing hot bath and talking aloud to myself was all it took. Too stressed looking at a word document all day.

>>23624977
sounds good

>>23625052
what are reasonable/the usual stats you'd be looking at per chapter? is there a certain amount where you'd think "this is fine"?
I've never given a shit about regular social media likes, followers, comments etc but can definitely imagine it eating at me if it's for my writing. godspeed, anon

>>23625277
The numbers themselves are unimportant, it's just the phenomenon in general. How right when you think you did something especially well, and assume that if the readers liked the thing before, they're really going to love it now, but then only get absolute silence in response...That does a number on your self-confidence, no matter what your expectations are. Can't help but think about it. Like why, how to explain it.

>>23620985
As far as quality of life and general scientific progress is concerned Rome was actually inferior to the European nations that came afterwards. Not even mentioning the Muslims who were in their golden age at the time. They only thing Rome had that was better than the Middle Ages was their legal system.

>>23620985
>Can you imagine if humanity could have kept it together? We would have gone to the moon around 600 AD.
Rome failed because they were not, as a matter of fact, very advanced, and failed to recognize and address (and in many cases, willingly ignored) very basic issues that piled up on all levels of society over centuries. A lot better question is, why are we not that much more advanced than corrupt ancient romans today, despite supposedly "having it together"?

>>23625328
I get what you're saying. How vocal are your readers usually? The silence might not necessarily be dislike, right? Though I guess indifference might be worse in this context...

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>>23625375
There are a few active readers who say something to every chapter. It's a bit unsettling that they all went quiet now. But things like that happen. Just gotta keep on keeping on

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>>23625382
as an outsider to your situation, the fact that the silence is actually this severe makes me think it's just an anomaly that could be explained any number of other reasons rather than a direct response to what you've written.

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Editor got back to me today. She wants to organise a zoom call to talk about the book. Only problem is that I've suddenly become disgustingly sick so I'll be a useless blob. Goddamn it anons TAKE CARE OF YOURSELVES

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>>23625052
You want the harsh truth? The salted water? If your views are consistent, you can assume your readers did see your most recent chapter but offered no insight because no fragment managed to pick their brains with the same voltage as before. Go read what they said, whether it was commenting on a character, plot point, or anecdote because that stood out enough to be worthy of a commentary.

>>23624559
´It's comparable with the atmospheric perspective principle in art. That effect that everything on the horizon really far away turns grayish and so looks distant? It's because the eye can´t see gradients that well.´
EZ PZ

>>23625616
That's a smart way to look at it. Thinking about it, this would imply the readers cared more about the cringy, tacked on fight scenes than the prose or character moments. I subconsciously blocked the idea since it was too frightening.

>>23625668
I wouldn't want to be in your position atm, but as an underground web novelist, you should do the needful nonetheless.

>>23625514
Get better

>>23625360
I can answer that. Because nobody gives a shit about the rules.

>>23625063
Younger male older female is kino. It's the most loving relationship dynamic.

>>23625645
That's awful, nice try though

>>23625360
I never claimed we had it together. America and Europe are allowing barbarian invasions as we speak. We are also failing to recognize, and willfully ignoring, very basic issues. A planetary civilization crash could happen within our lifetimes.

>>23625798
>He thinks mansplaining is awful

>>23625814
The difference between the Semitic and/or Semitoid immigrants in current Europe and the Germanic invaders of late antiquity is huge. One could almost say they are diametrically opposed to each other. The Semitic immigrants of now are degenerates, poor, incapable, violent, dumb. The Germanic invaders of the past were virile, strong, intelligent and capable.

>>23625814
>He doesn't know

>>23625873
Nice frames!

>>23625877
It just annoys me how people compare the Semitic immigrants to Northern Europe of nowadays with the Germanic Barbarians of the past, when in reality they more resemble the Semitic immigrants to ancient Persia, the Semitic immigrants to ancient Greece, the Semitic immigrants to ancient Rome and the Semitic immigrants to Roman Gaule.

>>23625877
Oh, forgot to add, the Semitic immigrants to ancient Egypt.
Almost as if there's a connection.

>>23625893
>People don't move to another country
>A part of their soul has died and they respawn somewhere else
Take the world switcher pill

>>23625893
Also, >>>/pol/ .
Also, being annoyed by things outside of your control means you need to read more, to keep it /lit/.

>>23625941
Why don't you reply to my insight? I read it in a book ok. The book was written by novelist Arthur de Gobineau. He wrote the Pleiades, amongst other great books.

>>23625814
Yeah the Native Americans allowing European invaders was probably le mistake. Now they want to build rockets and go to Mars. Well, a bit of relief: they won't go home-home until they've done the actual work and fulfilled the service, every individual, every time, 1000 promille.
>testimony: In the Asian-European diaspora

>>23625951
Insight? At best it's a plagiarization, and that's at worst. An appeal to authority. Do your own thinking work. Ain't no copying others' homework on the test of life buddy.
Also I don't reply to it because I seem to have passed the 'blame others' phase of the soul. Now I only blame myself, which is fruitful, because it gets me to do what I have to do.
But you're not my buddy, friend, you're a fellow Anon here.

>>23625951
Also, I pick my nose while I type this.

>>23625952
Or well everyone should be able to go home of course. Keeping people locked in and perpetually at work is dystopian.

>>23625959
You haven't read Rousseau, haven't you. He who reaches true adulthood submits to an authority of some sort. He who reaches true adulthood looks at infancy as the state of not serving any authority at all. Only the fools, the mischievous and the overly educated go into adulthood with the premise of disobedience to any form of authority.
You say you blame yourself, I just see a person making up some moral building in his head he does not apply himself, and from there derives no else but the right to abuse and make use of everyone else with trickery, with the justification that they are morally inferior to himself.
You are a devil.

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>>23625814
>America and Europe are allowing barbarian invasions as we speak.
They're not allowing it. They're mandating it. They're refusing to implement any policies to boost native birth rate because the same people shitting and pissing themselves over immigrants are also against things like mandatory paid family leave, universal childcare, universal healthcare, housing benefits for young families, etc.

Which is the same thing that ended Rome. Greed and corruption by the rich combined with the idiocy of half the working class making them easily controlled prevented Rome from adapting and correcting its course.

The Roman Republican fell because of the latter problem of idiots blindly supporting strongman authoritarian types.

The Roman Empire fell because those same idiots kept supporting the elite even as the elite worked them to death, stole their land, etc. All because the workers were too lazy to use their brains. Literally. We have studies on this. The root cause of conservatism and authoritarian worship is that a chunk of the population cannot tolerate the mental discomfort of cognitive dissonance, the effort of integrating new ideas with old ones, so they seek authority figures with easy answers to tell them exactly what to think and believe.

To this day, you see an eerie delay of a few hours, up to a day or two, between major events happening and that segment of society barely registering it while they wait to hear how they're supposed to respond from one of their masters.

The saddest part is that the sane members of society has to sit and watch and put up with them. The rational portion of society has to play along and treat them like equals even though interacting with them is like interacting with a 3rd grader. You see through every motive they have, but you still have to act surprised as their simplistic plans unfold to maintain their illusion that they're competent, because if you don't they tantrum so hard that people tend to die in the chaos.

The same was true in Rome. Aurelius' Meditations is full of examples.

>>23625979
>Implying I don't
>Devils
>Submitting to Rousseau
>Reading Rousseau at all
Mate my literary highpoints is singing in a perceived reconstructed language of my ancestors. It's sad that you need a Go-back-to-nature writer to revert fucking it all up in the first place. Just plant a tree and feed the birds if you want to flex your naturalism. Bury dead snails. Enjoy the sun. Take long walks. Anything a foreign authority tells me to do I suspect. I know 'cause I did my service and power corrupts. What, the fuck gives him the right? I know the land I live in well enough to work in it. Don't need to read every work of Rousseau to know what naturalism means, and guess what: there's a motorway adjacent to the park anyway. People come and go. We fuck eachother over all the time. Some try not to do it, hats off to them. Some have escaped from war and slaughter just to build a life here. Respect it. Appoint parks all you want but if there is 1 child hungry under your authority, then you've lost the right to speak.

Here's your (You)! Congrats

>>23625979
Don't omit the fact that the premise of much of Rousseau's work was that any legitimate authority MUST be compatible with individual freedom. If there is no legitimate authority present to submit to, what does Rousseau say?

>>23625999
Why're they mandating it?
1. They make up bullshit jobs
2. The valuable-to-life work is underpaid and understaffed
3. Need to import labour
4. Then get mad if the workers build a life here
All points are equally dumb-dumb.

>>23626015
> bro touch grass, stoop reading books
Sir, this is a literature board.

>>23626016
Counterquestion: what authority do YOU have so as for you to be obedient to yourself only?

>>23626024
Excuse me sirrah, my tendencies are to read the hearts of the people I meet outside. Forgive me my rudeness, my liege.

>>23626026
A counterquestion is an evasion of answering. You could've just answered.

>>23626027
So many replies and you failed to name or quote even one (1) book author in your snarky comments.

>>23626030
My answer is that you can choose whatever authority you'd like to follow. CEO's, military generals, priests, God, nature, some book author. Now who's foolish enough to submit to his own authority? You aren't that smart. You aren't that talented. Does it take so many concessions off of your ego to submit to AN authority?

>>23626033
>Naming authors on an Anonymous forum
>Hypocrisy and name-dropping
I write my own books, sir. That is quite enough.

>>23626040
Yet I fail to see a talented writer.

>>23626039
No, naturally, there must be authority, but if there is, at the moment it's certainly not telling mé what to do, so I'll have to resort to my own authority withín that authority.
Do you train your dog to be free and playing with other dogs after one day or do you wish to keep him on your leash forever and suck all the spirit out of him because he can't be free?
You're schooled to become free, not to remain in subservience always.

>>23626044
Joke's on you, because I hid the talent I received in my wallet, wher

>>23626049
*where I store it together with my discipline.

>>23626048
No, the exact opposite. The virtuous man is schooled in complete, unlimited freedom. He is schooled not to become free, but to one day grow resentful of it, and willingly accept the command of someone wiser than him. Do you deny the authority of your own parents? Don't you want to make them feel accomplished, listened, served? I repeat, only He who derives honour out of serving others is truly virtuous.

>>23626018
>1. They make up bullshit jobs
In America alone:
We are short over 100k doctors, nurses, and medical techs.
We are short over 100k various types of engineers.
We are short tens of thousands of attorneys and paralegals.
We are short tens of thousands of teachers.
We are short nearly 100k business administrators.
And more.
And ALL of these are worsening.
And that's not even touching on the low-paid labor, like road crews, home construction crews, roofers, etc. Look at what happened to Florida's construction industry when they cracked down on illegal immigrants. They suffered billions in economic damage because they gutted their workforce.

If you don't want the economy and society as a whole to collapse, we need more people. If you don't do anything to help the native birth rate, then we must get those people from elsewhere. It is a PRIVILEGE that we're able to poach the fittest and smartest workers from most of the developing world.

>2. The valuable-to-life work is underpaid and understaffed
That could have something to do with the average medical school debt being $200k and growing.
That could have something to do with it costing nearly as much to get a law degree.
That could have something to do with even engineering degrees having increasingly poor ROIs.

I'm an engineer that oversees hiring of new engineers out of college for my firm. The cost of living has risen so much while wages have stagnated that I have to fight every week with management and HR because they want to offer $70k/year to try to get someone to move to an area where you need at least $80k/year to afford median expenses for their demographic, and we need to be offering $90k if we want to avoid only hiring the people our competitors don't want.

Again, it's all because one segment of society lets their rich masters trick them into mauling themselves. The same people that create demand for immigration also campaign on anti-immigration policies. Hell, earlier this year they had a bill that gave them 90% of their demands on immigration while ceding virtually nothing to the other side and with the president promising to sign it. Then all but 4 of them voted against it at the last minute because their candidate decided he wanted to campaign on immigration this Fall so he couldn't let the deal pass.

The people voting for this have no idea because they only get information from their masters and why would their masters tell them that their God Emperor sabotaged the most significant immigration reform bill in US history because he thought he'd have an easier time getting re-elected if it didn't pass?

That's the exact kind of shit that did Rome in. Bread and Circuses and all that.

>>23626062
>Serving others and yourself is a juxtaposition
No sir, I have to disagree in the formality of the wording, albeit I think we serve the same principle. Does the cook not receive a personal salary while the restaurant guests eat? Is he not submitting to the authority of himself when working, deciding what to cook and how, if he runs a 'free' restaurant?
It depends on the type of 'restaurant' you like, I think. I prefer to choose what I eat with what's in the availability, others, elsewhere, might Uphold the Tradition or Serve the Higher Ideal and the Common Good. And what leads in the decision of what the meal will be: the desire of the guests what to eat or the offerings of the cooks?
I think we're discussing semantics here.

this entire argument is refuted by Laozi

i will refuse to elaborate any further

>>23626062
I think virtousness is attained and achieved, with which schooling helps, because as it is said: The real education starts after school.
I could graduate with some 8/10s on my diploma but if I do not put those 8s to work then I'll never make 10s out of them, and as you must know, a 10 is for God. So yeah, we're discussing semantics.

>>23626086
Laozi was placed in a certain point in space and time. We all have to be our own Laozis in our own worlds.

>>23626026
I am that anon.
The simplest answer is that I have control only over myself, and that is all the authority one needs to be obedient to oneself.

The more complex answer is that I position myself optimally to live in accordance with my own morals while still avoiding conflicts and clashes with external authorities. This is more complex because it requires a sustained effort to understand ethics, morals, politics, history, etc. Otherwise you don't know how to orient yourself, let alone where to position yourself.

For example, I think citizens having their rights violated by a cop have the right to defend themselves, so I don't go to heated protests where I might have my rights violated by a cop, so as to avoid being forced to choose between my own moral authority and the prevailing authority that says you should let the cops beat you and violate your rights, and then try to pursue justice in court later.

>>23626086
This is a sound Taoist argument.

>>23626086
Enjoy your freedom from e-labor, Anon.

>>23620953
Is this too much or too little content for 3K word chapter?

>MC is a woman locked in a barn with other women
>During a night, a new girl in thrown to the barn and introduces herself
>MC cheers up the the new girl and talks about the evil men whom they have been forced to marry
>Next day, MC's father (tribal chief) arrives in the tribal village
>MC hears about his father telling to the other men how he is losing a war against the Crusaders
>He bring them with a captured Prince because he is afraid the crusaders will find and release him
>MC sneaks to talk with the Prince and is convinced by the Prince to help him escape

Think every chapter should have something interesting happening, dunno if that's it at all.

>>23626110
The most interesting thing here was the gender switch of the MC. Very modern. Subtle. I like it.

>>23626123
No, hold on, I read that wrongly. I now understand who's helping who. Good going on the writing, interesting situation I could see happening.

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>Editor got back to me at last
>Not much positive said
It's so horrible to read what's been changed and see how many dumb retard mistakes you make per page. Writing century when you meant to write millennia, for instance.

>>23626080
Well, in that case the cook decided to become a cook entrepreneur who runs a restaurant. That means he has to lead other people most likely as he would (usually) take workers to help his restaurant be more successful. But what is more ridiculous than a master who has never been a servant?
>>23626106
> This is more complex because it requires a sustained effort to understand ethics, morals, politics, history, etc
So you are subservient to book authors and scholars

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>>23625776
yeah but I wanted her to be a dark influence on him that turns him from nice kid to her personal pet monster

>>23626128
It's the life of texts. You planted the seed in the correct conditions, now it's its own life.
>Copped the phrase from a college books
>With this line I ask permission to the publisher for using the phrase
>I already used it
>Not even mad

>>23626130
I am the cook anon. I understand the business method you describe to be triangular, with a boss, and below him, workers. Acceptable, scholarly means of looking at it. Yet know that on the ground level there is also a boss, and no, it's not the manager, but the worker most liked / hardest working / nicest-meal delivering / most economical / whatever the social valutum is at that moment and in that place. That's not something that the boss at the top can stop, it's a status that remains.
I agree, one must work his way up. But not through the levels of boss-servant hierarchy, lest he become King unwantedly, but statistical-experiencially, in order to sharpen his skills in his subject.

>>23626123
>The most interesting
it isn't really that eventful granted, but I also introduce like 10 characters and places, just trying to familiarize the reader with the world while prepping for action.
Dunno how I would make it more interest, maybe some father-daughter shenanigans like father sniffing her daughter's hair.

>>23626154
>>23626130
Also, the Egyptian and Meso-American pyramids still stand, so your way is valuable too, I guess, but know that it's all temporal.

>>23626155
>her daughter's hair.
I'm getting all pronouns wrong today lol

>>23626128
Anon, think about it, somebody who does it for a living took time off their day to help you make your text as best as (they) think it can be. That's more encouraging than most of us will ever get

>>23626155
To smell if it is clean and presentable, I sincerely hope.
It's not action packed, but it doesn't have to always be action packed. Not every work has to be explosions and galactic warfare. It's nice if there's a bit of balance.

>>23626130
>So you are subservient to book authors and scholars
If that were true, I'd pick one or two or even several and make them my personal Bible. I ingest their takes to orient myself and then define my own principles. I use them for contrast rather than submit to them.

Saying someone submits to the people they studied is like saying Einstein, who legendarily defied his mentor and the physics community at large to publish his work on Special Relativity at a time when Aether Theory was the prevailing concept, submitted to Aether Theory. Which, again, is the very thing he refuted and extinguished. The destruction of Aether Theory came from the work of someone who studied Aether Theory.

Did Einstein submit to it, or is it often necessary to expose yourself to many ideas, even some of them wrong, to orient yourself and advance towards truth?

Your logic implies to me that independent thought is impossible. That every tiny shred of credit anyone or anything else gets for any development you undergo whatsoever counts as "submission to authority" in your view. Which means every human is in a permanent state of submission to virtually infinite authorities because everyone was born and raised by others.
Every time you heard someone else talk and it influenced you, they became an authority.
Every time you stood up and realized you couldn't fall through the solid ground, the dirt or wood or concrete or carpet you stood on had authority over you.
Every time you slept because you were tired, or ate because you were hungry, that was... *you* having authority over you.

So, is Hedonism not a classic example of someone having authority over themselves?

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>>23626161
>To smell if it is clean and presentable, I sincerely hope.

>>23626224
reminds me of Napoleon asking his wife not to wash 3 days before he comes home

>>23626249
clearly british propoganda

>>23626264
probably but it's hot

>>23626224
What? You'd want your child to be clean and presentable. My father also commanded me to smell my clothes. If they stink, I should wash them, if they don't, they can keep up another round.

>>23626309
But this 19-year-old girl and his father who hates his daughter

>>23626343
Makes sense, she'd dirty up just to spite him. Isn't that the teenage mores?

>>23626203
Hedonism is a classic example of 'Fuck you and your talk about a future I wanna get laid and do drugs and make a shitload of money like the motherfuckers on the internet seem to do'
>testimony: been there

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>>23626203
>Which means every human is in a permanent state of submission to virtually infinite authorities
I gotta refute my own argument a little because it'll bug me if I don't mention it:
All that we know to exist obeys natural laws.
All life that we know to exist is subject to natural selection.

On the material level, all things are subject to the "authority" of all other things, because we know the range of influence by gravity and electromagnetism to be virtually infinite.
Likewise, on a biological level, we know every life form is shaped by the influences, or "authority", of its environment, including its competition.

So, why should we presume that cognition is beyond such confinement? Our physical matter is molded by physics. Our species is molded by natural selection. Our minds are certainly subject to both of these, and to novel influences from other minds. Are we not thus unavoidably subjected to the authorities that shape the very cognition we attempt to use to define our principles and morals?

Again, I argue that these authorities are so simultaneously numerous and individually trivial that we can safely take them for granted as part of the premise, as we do with physics and biology, and handle the topic in layman's terms. In that light, we would dismiss such a claim as a technicality. Sure, we're subject to the authority of our culture, language, ecology, planet, solar system, galaxy, cosmos, etc, but that's too far in the weeds to be useful. So we should confine the topic to more individually significant and direct authorities.

>>23626390
Derp, forgot to clarify the jello reference.
When discussing jello as a food, do we care much about the shape of the mold it was cooled in? Or do we focus on what was added to the gelatin mix to give it a particular flavor? Does the shape of the mold have much bearing on how it ends up tasting?

>>23626380
That's the layman's understanding of the philosophy. The actual philosophy was much closer to Epicureanism. It prioritized pleasure, but it did also weigh the downsides of things like promiscuity, overindulgence, addiction, withdrawal, etc.

A proper hedonist doesn't sleep around unsafely because STIs and unwanted pregnancies diminish pleasure. They also don't recklessly use drugs because becoming addicted to heroin, losing your home and your life savings, and dying from an overdose of fentanyl in an alley diminish pleasure. They also don't pursue hustle or grind culture, because what's the point of having tons of money if you're not enjoying yourself?

I've heard Hedonism described as Utilitarianism on an individual level (because fuck Objectivism), and in that context your average person working a laid back 9-5 with people they like and spending their evenings and weekends relaxing and having fun is pursuing a Hedonistic lifestyle. They're maximizing their pleasure in the long run by accepting less pleasure during their 9-5s. What's working 40 hours per week at an ok job if it means you'll also get to spend half the weekends out of the year for 20 years on jetskis or in a sports car? Some people would even say the pleasure of seeing their kids graduate college debt free is so pleasurable that it makes 20 years of work at a mediocre job a net positive in terms of pleasure.

>>23626203
>>23626390
> All that we know to exist obeys natural laws.
> All life that we know to exist is subject to natural selection
Yes, but I mean on a social level it is stupid to follow your own laws.
> So we should confine the topic to more individually significant and direct authorities.
Yes. Everyone picks the authority he obeys.
> That every tiny shred of credit anyone or anything else gets for any development you undergo whatsoever counts as "submission to authority" in your view
What gives you the authority to refute Einstein's theory?Every time you stood up and realized you couldn't fall through the solid ground, the dirt or wood or concrete or carpet you stood on had authority over you
Authority can be inconsentual, consentual, forced, natural, good, bad. What I'm talking about are the consentual forms of authority, authorities you consent to. What exactly is your reasoning behind not consenting to any sort of authority at all? I think the point you are trying to make is that no authority is worth the freedom you abandon for it. That's more or less like saying that no sharing is worth the goods you give to someone else for it, if you could have had them for yourself. It is refusing to obey or admit any authority, while willfully accepting any authority you might get. At some point no one is going to give you any sort of authority anymore to speak on any sort of matters. Whatever you say from now on is creditless, because it is not based on anything besides your ego. It's like saying that everyone should share with you, without having ever shared anything at all or being willing to do so.

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>>23626519
>Yes, but I mean on a social level it is stupid to follow your own laws.
That was my conclusion:
>>23626390
>Sure, we're subject to the authority of our culture, language, ecology, planet, solar system, galaxy, cosmos, etc, but that's too far in the weeds to be useful. So we should confine the topic to more individually significant and direct authorities.

>Yes. Everyone picks the authority he obeys.
My contention was that if we dismiss those authorities that are so omnipresent that they can't be evaded, it is possible to obey no authority at all.

>What gives you the authority to refute Einstein's theory?
Personally? I don't have any objections to Special Relativity.
What gives *anyone* the authority to refute his theory? The academic process of peer-review allows anyone to offer up for peer review a paper that may refute anyone else's work.

>What exactly is your reasoning behind not consenting to any sort of authority at all?
What authority understands my circumstances better than I do?
What authority understands my needs and desires better than I do?
What authority is capable of proving its superiority over me?
Some. But they're also not attempting to impose their authority over me. I have to seek them out and learn more about them. By the time I've learned enough about them to justify submission, I've typically also learned enough not to benefit from their authority any longer, so why bother?

>I think the point you are trying to make is that no authority is worth the freedom you abandon for it.
You may have me confused with another anon. I was more concerned with the claim that EVERYONE must submit to an authority. As if the heritage of Diogenes died with him.
I personally think most people benefit from submission to some authority if only because most people are significantly impaired in all senses relative to the best in society. The problem there lies in their inability to even estimate the ability of their betters, which makes them easily manipulated.

>That's more or less like saying that no sharing is worth the goods you give to someone else for it, if you could have had them for yourself.
The economic angle is an interesting take. Theory says that no transaction takes place in a truly free market that isn't a net benefit to both parties, and that net positive value is created with every exchange because everyone gets something they value more than what they paid for it, or else they wouldn't make the trade.

In that context, submission to authority should be a net benefit for both parties. And it also suggests that for some parties, their benefit is not to submit but to be the authority and to accept submission from others. Where do they fit in your model?

>Whatever you say from now on is creditless, because it is not based on anything besides your ego.
Don't these people tend to get the most credit? Are you familiar with Machiavelli?