How do trads deal with the fact that Renaissance Italy, and most of Europe for that matter, was full of degenerates and profligates? In this lovely crafted volume, we see stories describing:> monks sleeping with nuns and murdering their offspring > "catholic" rulers hunting commoners with dogs > monks disregarding all basic morality in day to day life, and then making up miracles for alms> ordinations commonly bought and sold like loafs of bread > widespread infidelity, assassination, robbery etc. I must say that I have greatly enjoyed this book, are there any others that cover a society with such breadth and depth?
>>23622109>How do trads deal with the fact that Renaissance ItalySimple
>>23622109Sounds pretty based, but then again I'm only racist and not a trad (whatever that is)
>>23622109That's extremley based. Liberals are the real puritans after all
>>23622224>not a single author of note between Chaucer and ErasmusMalory
>>23622109Because trads understand the depravity of man so this isn't actually the own you think it is. Still, past societies generally restrained it better than we do nowadays. At least infidelity was recognized as wrong so people had to hide it. Nowadays women are encouraged to cheat.
>>23622109Imagine if 500 years from now people take the Satan worship moral panic of the 1980s and Q Anon at face value.>"Did you know that in the early 2000s the rich all sacrificed children to Moloch at pizza shops!"A lot of the juicy details here are just slanders set down in writing. Certainly there was decay and some bad Popes but there were also strong undercurrents in the other direction at time.
>>23622286Correct
>>23622698The Church and especially the mendicant orders were universal laughing-stocks; marital infidelity was so common as to be expected in France at the time. Read Cellini’s autobiography.
>>23622109you're confusing the church choir stuffed shirt ned flanders trads with the odyssean infinite boundaries colonial superpowers trads. It's really unfortunate they're even somehow considered somehow aligned, when they're total opposites in action and beliefs
>>23622109>early life>protestanteverytimeI haven't read the book and it would be unfair to disregard its scientific methods to gather information, but on a first look it is very likely that there is some underlying motive to undermine catholicism.
>>23622109>monks sleeping with nunsBased at least they didn't fuck children for once.
>>23622109Try his book on the Greeks... thats very good also
>>23623142>The RenaissanceAnon...
>>23623107He literally just references contemporary sources
>>23622109As a Catholic I don't pay attention to the opinions of Protestants, Muslims, or Jews.
>>23622109>At lunch he becomes heated about the Renaissance, which he maintains had an enormously damaging effect on German development; this period had understood and respected antiquity just as little as it did Christianity, and men of tremendous genius had worked in the service of a power which corrupted everything. As always, the naive Germans had let themselves be so awed by foreign culture that their own aesthetic sense had been almost ruined. But strangely enough, though everything had been directed toward destroying the German identity, they had not succeeded entirely.
Trads generally consider the Renaissance the beginning of the end. Even Spengler called it a popular revolt against the Gothic culture.
>>23623765>The "plait"-church Domenico with the pillar of the saint disgusted him, "that's where the renaissance lead to"; I [Cosima] say, that the renaissance is as little to blame for it as Palestrina's music is to blame for the origin of the operatic aria, but he sticks to his opinion, Greek art had influenced the world long after its fall, but with this eagerness to do it beautifully, to avoid the harsh, one arrived at the rococo. There was something spoiled in the seed. People like Nietzsche, through the renaissance-man Burckhardt, even say it openly what they want: Erasmus, Petrarca, they are abhorrent to me.
>>23623765Why was he so based? I’ve never seen an artist so consistently have the right take.
>>23622109Because the Italian renaissance wasn’t trad, and it wasn’t the only renaissance prior to the capital R renaissance.
>>23623107Fuck off, Shitalian.
If anything, the best thing to come out of the Renaissance from a Catholic perspective was the Reformation, not because of the Reformation itself but because it led to the Counter-Reformation which is one of the three great periods of reform in the Church's history. The Counter-Reformation was incredible for the Church and really cleaned it up.God willing we will have a fourth great period of reform again, now that this present age of corruption in the Church is beginning to recede. The increase in vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life, and the character of these new priests, monks, and nuns, gives me hope. Hopefully we will see great new works of theology, architecture, art, and literature that flow out of a new period of reform and return to holiness. Hell, we might be doing so already.
>>23622224You can literally see the trail of Wikipedia links used to try and substantiate their claim against writers of the Italian Renaissance by picking out Petrarch‘s obscure and amateur work which is only read by scholars for context, confident that reposters wouldn‘t actually know anything about what‘s included in the meme before saving it on their hard drive and sharing for internet points. Granted that‘s before Chaucer but we don‘t need coherency on that point either.
>>23623802Essentially it was a rivalry between northern and southern Europe which I’ve done video essay on just recently.
>>23623802>Hell
>>23623803Petrarch had intended Africa to be his masterpiece. It paled in comparison to Walter of Châtillon's Alexandreis, now relegated as medieval and largely forgotten, just like every achievement of the 12th century Renaissance.That meme is certainly exaggerated, but if you can't see how it makes fun of people who extol the Italian Renaissance while ignoring everything that led up to it, then you might be its intended target.
>>23623746Posting this pic is not spiritually dissimilar to representing your opinion with a picture of an art ho you regularly goon to.
>>23622109Greek statue art fetishization isn't trad.
>>23622224Boccacccio (whomst Chaucer plagarised)Marsilio FicinoPico della MirandolaNicholas of CusaLeonardo da Vinci (written works)Galileo Galilei (written works)Benvenuto Cellini (written works)Giordano Bruno>>23622109See pic
>>23622109>>23624470And pic
>>23622698Hardly. Christian moral neuroticism comes after the Protestant Reformation and Catholic Counter-Reformation. Aquinas has chapters extolling the neccessity and virtue of prostitution for example.
>>23623833>Petrarch had intendedAnd? >while ignoring everything that led up to itFrom a literary perspective that would primarily be the Sicilian poets under Frederick II/Manfred and the troubadours.
>>23622109>How do trads deal with the fact that Renaissance Italy, and most of Europe for that matter, was full of degenerates and profligates?By peacefully ignoring (as in: not knowing about) 99% of history.
>>23623769>People like Nietzsche, through the renaissance-man Burckhardt, even say it openly what they want: Erasmus, Petrarca, they are abhorrent to me.What does he mean?
christianity only seems to work as a belief system at the individual and sometimes small group level
>>23622109Protestant moment. The difference is that none of those people ever went "btw society should not only tolerate, but cheer on my degeneracy and my ostentatious display of it everywhere, and my aberrations are actually the normal and the normal is an intolerable aberration"
>>23624538So they just engaged in hypocritical posturing and cant? Like Aquanis arguing for the neccessity and social virtue of prostitution whilst tut-tutting it. Don't see how it any of it survives Kant's categorical imperative.
>>23624574Aquinas position on prostitution is consistent with his criteria for the use of law enforcement to curb sin, being severe in its consequences and enforceable.
>>23623103I never really considered the two different trad schools. Rec me some books on both groups, please.
>>23623746>As a Catholic I don't pay attention to the opinions of JewsWhat did he mean by this
>>23624574Get outta here, Calvin.
>>23623081>FranceThere’s your problem
>>23624470Italians sure are arrogant
>>23624574>Don't see how it any of it survives Kant's categorical imperative.Oh no!
>>23623765Wagnerchads, I kneel. It seems thay you ACTUALLY can not stop winning.
>>23623765This sounds made up, post source
yes
>>23624514When Nietzsche first broke from Wagner, in Human All Too Human, he championed Renaissance Humanism, the Enlightenment and a progressive view of history.
I dont understand your point, the bible makes it pretty clear that the society around them was steeped in sin
>jewish religion>it's full of sex addict whores
>>23624484>Aquinas has chapters extolling the neccessity and virtue of prostitution for example[citation needed]
>>23623746>As a Catholic I don't pay attention to the opinions of Jews.
>>23622109Uh. Why do you think Trads are not aware of this?
>>23622109Oh, so still better than what we have now, except now we don't even try to do cool things
>>23624484Ok but prostitution is a good way of letting out sexual impulses. Better prostitution than pornography (which destroys your mind) or rape or casual sex.
>>23623081Did you read Cassanova's biography and assume everyone in the 18th century was a gigachad who slept with a new girl each night?
>>23623765V-vagneru-sama...I kneeru...
>>23622109The renaissance wasn't trad you fucking retard. It was literally a revolt against medieval christianity which is what trads love.
