So... where is the Caesar? How much it has to get worse for things to start to get better?
>>23629814
>>23629814In Spenglerian theory, things dont get better
I hope you're prepared for the Russian century.
>>23629814I don’t see anything happening until western culture is truly dead. That is, no more Hollywood, no new music, no cultural opium of any kind. This might take another 70-200 years. The only alternative is if some truly countercultural cult arises in the West and gains a large following. Something like a combination of the Amish and Ted Kaczynski.
will pic related cross the rubicon?
>>23629814>How much it has to get worseIt's only beginning. I think Spengler suggested the caesar would come about 200 years after he wrote.
>>23629831Nothing ever happens as you could say.
>>23630461In the same sense that nothing ever happens for an octogenerian except a slow decline and a short but sometimes violent end. Good things can happen in specific, temporary ways.
>>23629814>So... where is the Caesar?They are already here, technically. The Western Caesar form is Cecil Rhodes types. Unironically, modern Caesar candidates are Trump, Musk (yes, really), etc.The Caesar is not one dude, Caesarism is more a term to describe a period in a Civilization's history.>How much it has to get worse for things to start to get better?This is a misconception. You should read Decline of the west. But the short of it is that the Caesar does not really solve anything, he is just another product of decay. Augustus and Cesar, for example, did not actually solve much.
>>23630648It is very important to abstain from Idolizing the Caesar into being a messiah-like figure. Let's just think for a second at who the other Caesaric movements in historical cultures were:>Magian: Turkish mercenaries, Berber outlanders, Slave soldiers, Eunuchs who overthrew the previous rulers and killed them all.>China: Murderous philosopher-tyrants with marked religious affiliations. Usually from a peripheral frontier nobility.
>>23630648Musk is the antichrist. He's going to put mind control chips in people's brains.
>>23629814>>23629825>>23630837Trump is the Cesar. America and much of European enlightenment and "high art" since a few hundred years ago came from Freemasons, like it or not, and the Freemasons are obsessive with the Kaballah and Jewish Messianic prophecies. Technocratic elite want to destroy and restructure society for greater automation, and the Freemasonic "old nobility" want to clothe it in Messianic esoreticism.
Rome had multiple Populares who were either killed or bought off by the senatorial elite before the rise of Caesar. Trump is not Caesar, but he's a harbinger.
>>23629814Caesarism isn’t a person. It’s a tendency. It’s a tendency of the people to clamor for strongmen and cult of personality politics. >>23630648Guys, actually read the authors. C’mon. Spengler identified Cecil Rhodes for 2 reasons: 1) The relentless focus on expansion2) The fact that he felt himself inwardly Roman (Rhodes carried a copy of Meditations everywhere and had Roman busts) It’s not about the fact that he was a sort of businessman and Musk has virtually none of qualities that Rhodes had. If anything, Musk is more like another sort of figure that he identified in the late stages of civilization who is a sort of chimera. This person is a someone who takes the civilizational impulse and sort of misdirects it, makes it phony and misguided. This is Hatshepsut slowing the borders of Egyptian imperial march. It’s completely unknown what type of man becomes the Western Caesar beyond this, but it’s presumably anyone since were the most democratic society to ever exist. It’s less about a biography and more about psychology. Being rich or owning businesses has nothing to do with it.
>>23630999>actually read the authors
>>23630926Freaky
>>23630255>After the Second Punic War, there was a great increase in income inequality. While the landed peasantry[27] was drafted to serve in increasingly long campaigns, their farms and homesteads fell into bankruptcy.[28] With Rome's great military victories, vast numbers of slaves were imported into Italy.[28] Significant mineral wealth was distributed unevenly to the population; the city of Rome itself expanded considerably in opulence and size; the freeing of slaves brought to Italy by conquest too would massively expand the number of urban and rural poor.[29] The republic, for reasons unclear to modern historians, in 177 BC also stopped regularly establishing Roman colonies in Italy; one of the major functions of these colonies was to land the urban and rural poor, increasing the draft pool of landed farmers as well as providing economic opportunities to the lower classes.[30]
will pic related cross the rubicon nude riding elephant?
>>23631191>inb4 too deep
>>23631191Astroturfed anti-nationalist Jew pied piper aimed at redditor alt-liters.
>>23631211memebot 3000
>>23630999>Musk>not relentlessly focused on expansionprops for actually reading, but you don't know shit
>>23631150>>for reasons unclear to modern historiansfuture historians will be saying this about the retarded shit we're doing today. my god.
>>23631150It lines up like clockwork in my opinion, Colonialism = Hellenism, kicking off a century or so after the most furtive age of arts. The "second war", dreaded H name whose nation ought to have been destroyed. Just slow, slow decay and normalization of violence or whatever underhanded means of control leading up to a final showdown of a civilization a hundred years from now.
>>23629814Barron Trump?
>>23630913You don't have any reason to be in this discussion, with all due respect.>>23630926The same goes for you. If you do not wish to engage with Spenglerian concepts, why be here?>>23630999>2) The fact that he felt himself inwardly Roman (Rhodes carried a copy of Meditations everywhere and had Roman busts)Tbh I think you may just be misinterpreting a preface in this case. He very clearly brings this up along other historical comparisons.>It’s not about the fact that he was a sort of businessman No, but I do think that he was onto something with it. To me, business interests transmuted into the political are the most likely candidate for a Faustian Caesar type. You can already kind of see it with Trump. >and Musk has virtually none of qualities that Rhodes had.I was just using him as an ill-thought example. Replace him with Erik Prince if you want. >It’s completely unknown what type of man becomes the Western Caesar beyond this, but it’s presumably anyone since were the most democratic society to ever exist.I disagree. Keep in mind these are my own words, but a Caesar must have an independent source of power (that is, one that answers to him) to trump established politics, be it wealth, military power, etc. It should be disclosed that the Caesar cultivates all of these, but only really starts out with one. And as things stand right now I believe the only reliable source for such power is the world of business. Common people, even in a time of unprecedented social mobility, still need to obtain a source of independent leverage to be Caesars. And honestly I doubt it is the military.> It’s less about a biography and more about psychology.It is still a question of psychology, but the Caesar psychology better expresses itself in certain forms, which can then be classified into a type.>>23631605I don't think this is the type of expansion that anon (or Spengler but whatever, he wasn't really talking about Rhodes as a Caesar precursor in that part) was referring to.
>>23631735It does, but this seems highly intentional and controlled. It all seems less like an organic mirroring of history and more like a fabricated narrative intended to mimic the flow of ancient Rome.
>>23631735The parallelisms are not that close. Nothing you couldn't also use to compare the other high cultures to eachother, anyway.Obssesion with Ancient Greece and Rome has always been a very strange western shortcoming.
>>23631893The US has the same institutional structures as Rome, with the same system of government that followed the same trajectory, and every European country is an afterbirth of Greece and Rome, directly. What're you talking about
>>23629885he crossed the troonicon recently
>>23631899>The US has the same institutional structures as RomeNo, it does not. Just because the founding fathers had a Rome fetish does not mean the underlying structures are in any way similar.If you want I can try to explain why the U.S has a government completely different than Republican Rome's.> with the same system of government that followed the same trajector"Republic" is a very broad word.>d every European country is an afterbirth of Greece and RomeIn their imaginations, mostly. A much less convoluted line of descent can be traced to the germanics in most cases. Or at least a Roman-Germanic synthesis.
>>23629814>So... where is the Caesar?Austrian guy in the 1930s. He conquered, but was eventually backstabbed by his own. His final words were "Et tu, Anglo-mutt?"The real question is where is Augustus?
>>23630648>Musk/TrumpROFLMFAO
>>23632231There are not many other candidates.
>>23629814>How much it has to get worse for things to start to get better?Just look at how bad (poor) people had it around the time decline of the west was written. It needs to get like that or even worse before people desperately need to change in order to survive.
>>23629825no, a Caesar is not just a charismatic strongman like Trump. >Caesarism is not dictatorship, not the result of one man’s overriding ambition, not a brutal seizure of power through revolution. It is not based on a specific doctrine or philosophy. It is essentially pragmatic and untheoretical. It is a slow, often centuries-old, unconscious development that ends in a voluntary surrender of a free people escaping from freedom to one autocratic master.>Seen in this light, the approaching Caesars are no longer historical accidents, temporary tyrants, reactionary dictators who attempt to turn the clock back, all of whom are merely replicas of classical Greece’s tyrants. Those short-lived despots have nothing in common with the Caesars who eventually will organize the universal empire toward which their civilization has been tending. The coming Caesars are the lethal product of centuries of historical evolution, each succeeding generation having unconsciously added its stone to the towering pedestal on which they are going to stand.
>>23629814a good (slightly edited) post that some other anon made a couple years ago about this.>100 BC = 2000 AD for Faustian culture, in that schema. As demonstrated in this thread, there need not be individual analogues of specific men or dates (it could begin decades or a century from now, etc.)>So there's really no exactness to how Caesarism begins. But we can do thought experiments. I know it's just a thought experiment, but given insights from Spengler and others, let's say, Sulla born 138 BC; Caesar 100.>There was an American Sulla born sometime around or after 1962. This man will be involved in an outbreak of civil conflict in the near future. He is currently a known name in politics, military, or business, but not yet exceptional or famous.>American Caesar was born sometime between 1995-2005, now in his 20s. Given previous incidents of such figures in our time, I think American Caesar would be a black horse, a nameless nobody who's nothing special. like how Hitler was a homeless bum and a simple war vet. He would be touched in some way by the civil conflict, perhaps as a veteran commander or a near-victim from subsequent purges (Caesar suffered such under Sulla, but was also a battle veteran).>Given the work of Spengler, we know Faustian war since Napoleon has been less frequent than Antiquity, but far more intense and grave when it does happen (among peers, at least, different story with "savages" perhaps). Say, Faustians have a higher boiling point. The equivalent to the Punic, Mithradatic, and Macedonian Wars really happened in 3 or 4 wars (and maybe low level conflicts) rather than 9 or 10 consecutive wars in the centuries, with decades longer build up and tension.>Given this, let's assume we won't have distinct equals to the Social War, Sulla's Civil War, or the Caesarian Civil Wars. Rather, we have the tension boil to 1 or 2 more dramatic wars or conflict. For this reason, I'd put the American civil conflict further in the future than Sulla's civil war (which would begin in 2017, using strict timelines). Sometime between now and the 2030s.>However, the people of the US and EU are decadent and complacent. As Spengler notes, citizen armies have been replaced by privatized standing ones. Soldiering is an occupation, not a service. As Glubb ("Fate of Empires") and Riencourt ("The Coming Caesars") respectively note, decadence is a spiritual affliction, and the people put trust in the virile Caesar-men rather their effete selves.>Thus the people, even if opinionated, are not active participants. This would be the last true politico-ideological conflict in Faustian history, but much of it will be waged by mercenary minds as an animalistic power struggle.>This is how I'd imagine Caesarism's introduction. If I see conflicts like this emerge in our lifetimes, then I'd say Spengler's timetables for Caesarism were demonstrably accurate for 2000-2200. It's also the kind of thing not emblematic of the Nazis and similar movements.
>>23632778It is very stupid to attempt to chronologize events that have yet to happen based upon an alien culture's chronology in different if vaguely analogous circumstances, a label which can be applied to all other high cultures in the old world. This post misses the forest for the trees in the worst way. He even seems to think Spengler posits that events all repeat in an exact sequence like some sort of scripted videogame sequence.The western world is not the Roman-Hellenic world, and never will be.
>>23629825It would be fun, but he's not even that right-wing.
