The OT is a real slog for me.. I can't wait till I get to the NT

>>23816299
Too many to count, though I will admit that the places with censuses and genealogies are not the most pleasurable to read, though I'm sure anyone into gematria could chime in on the significance of the numbers and repetitions.
Lots of people quit halfway through reading the Pentateuch, but they're doing themselves a great disservice. You're in for a real exegetical and spiritual treat for the rest of the way through.

>>23816367
>places with censuses and genealogies are not the most pleasurable to read
Can they be skipped altogether?

>>23816331
Have you gotten through Deuteronomy and Numbers yet? This is the longest and most boring part, after that we go back to a more narrative format.

>>23816299
started reading OSB this month as well so it felt kinda wild opening /lit/ and this being the first thread i saw
as for your question i'm about to finish Genesis and the parts on cain's sin and the reuniting of Joseph w/ his family are the ones i liked the most so far
other than that my favorite parts from when i read it back in the day were all the stories featuring King David miracles in the Book of Daniel the entire Book of Jonah and one of the books attributed to King Solomon cannae remember which one exactly tho

>>23816299
I've read the Pentateuch and it's honestly a slog to get through and it really slowed me from reading the rest. I've read the NT multiple times though and I can fly through that.

>>23816299
>What are your favorite parts of the Old Testament?
Job, far and away. The most profound and beautiful writings in the canon

>>23816299
Isaiah. I love it about as much as the other anon likes Job.

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>mfw realizing Abraham met Jesus in Genesis 18

>>23816299
Genesis, Exodus and the historical books mog as a whole.
Wisdom and poetry books are good to dip into
I’ve never actually read through the laws desu
Prophets are very hard reading for me
Right now I’m reading the whole Vulgate except the law books to work on my Latin, I’m actually right about where you are so let’s keep it up (b^_^)b

>>23817295
Also my favorite story is probably that of Abraham and Isaac but there are a lot of contenders

>>23817275
Woah what
I always assumed it was God and 2 angels

>>23817298
John 8:56

>>23817301
Huh I never got that connection
I always assumed it was saying “rejoiced that he might see it” (since it uses hina) then he saw it after he went to Heaven but your reading makes a lot of sense

>>23817347
When I read Genesis 18 I found it strange that God would appear to Abraham in the form of a man in the first place. I guess the number 3 is significant as well, but it makes sense to me that God incarnating physically in the world would choose to take on the form of the Son.

>>23816639
Yeah you've wasted your time reading through geneolgies and ritual instructions. It wouldn't be suprising if you feel too drained to go through the historical chronicles which follow. The more edifying parts to the casual reader would be the poetic portions: Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job, Sirach.

>>23816299
First album was better

>>23816331
Dude, you should probably stay off /lit/. It's full of NT spoilers

>>23816536
The curses in Deut 28 hit kind of close to home given the current state of America. Numbers has a lot of good narrative—the bronze snake, which comes up in NT, all the stuff with Balaam.
Genesis has some heavy stuff where people don’t always realize how heavy it is. The foundation of lots of spiritual warfare gets laid down here (principalities against which we struggle get set over nations after the fall of tower of babel).
The arcs of Saul and David are interesting and (unpopular opinion) very relevant to current /pol/itics. The historical books in general are pretty good.
I like Ruth a lot even though it’s a lot less epic. Elijah and Elisha arcs are actually pretty encouraging and again kind of reverberate today. There’s one part in Luke where Jesus reminds the pharisees that Naaman was healed when jews were denied that grace and much seething ensues, fun part.
Psalms are my favorite wisdom book, no contest for me and might be my overall favorite book, gun to head. They make for excellent daily prayers and are all over the liturgy.
Ezekiel is my favorite of the four major prophets. Chapter 8 is practically a classification of people who reject Christ because they are mere sorcerers, or because they are polytheists, or because they are reductionists—still useful for seeing how modern occultists, gnostics, “just look at the philosophy, they’re all the same”-ists etc etc all reject Jesus, and pretty much always by pigeon holing him into one of those three cases. BUT I also like Jeremiah more than I expected to, especially Lamentations as a poetic interlude.
Jonah is my favorite minor prophet for when God refuses to destroy Nineveh and tells Jonah to stop being a little bitch about it.
OT is based and the God in it is triune, personal and loving, don’t let them tell you otherwise.

>>23819059
Psalms are magic

>>23816299
Ezekiel is my fave major prophet, Isaiah close second
Song of Songs is beautiful
Tobit is peak comfy
Tons of great stories in Genesis

>>23819123
How so?

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Which passage of the Bible strengthened your faith the most?

>>23819998
The bible contains various texts and prayers to invoke miracles. Psalms are a few of these, seeking the power of God for guidance and protection.
Magic and miracles are roughly the same thing, but they are distinguished in how they are practiced and which source of power they draw from. As a general rule, magic is individualistic and seeks power from demons, whereas miracles are communal and holy.

>>23820111
What about forms of occultism that seek to work with Angels in order to bring about various results in reality?
>Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God

>>23820115
>What about forms of occultism that seek to work with Angels in order to bring about various results in reality?
Ill-advised.
Contacting spirits is like picking up a phone, dialing a random number and asking the person on the other end about advice on the stock market.
Best case scenario, nobody picks up.
Moderate-bad case scenario, somebody picks up and actually engages you in conversation. Maybe he's helpful, maybe he's not.
Worst case scenario, the guy on the other line wants to lure you into his van with promises of candy.
Knowledge is magical by its very nature. Depending on the things we learn, it can irreparably taint us. This is precisely the reason why it is uniformly condemned in Christianity and why investigating the Occult is frowned upon. You're essentially a chimp walking into a nuclear reactor looking for bananas.

>>23820135
I somewhat agree, although isn't there a difference between seeking knowledge and seeking power/experiences?
I'm sure some individuals like Schema monks (yes, I know I'm not one) possess very advanced knowledge, yet they are protected.
Is the occult something that will be revealed in time, or will it forever be concealed and be the domain of God and his angels only?

>>23820141
The only thing we need to know for certain is what God tells us. And that is because the things we learn can hurt us.
For example, unprepared minds who are exposed to the Franklin Scandal can easily become trapped in cycles of existential neurosis. That is because the world is irreparably evil and the truth of it is horrifying.
Occultism exists in a similar aspect. Prayers may be used to invoke miracles, but conducting unsanctioned rituals is likely to result in damnation.
To use an example, necromancy is condemned in the bible *precisely* because the living cannot contact the dead. So whatever spirit answers your summons will most likely be a demon of some kind masquerading as a long-lost relative, seeking to lead you astray.

>>23820180
I guess it's human to want to seek knowledge. That's what caused the Fall in the first place. I just hope everything will be revealed in time.

What do Jacob's last words regarding the twelve tribes of Israel mean? Are they prophetic? I'm especially interested in what he said to Dan and Judah.

>>23820095
Matthew 17:20

Thoughts on Jonathan Pageau?

>>23820095
Job 42:1-6

'Then Job answered the LORD and said:
"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
'Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.'
I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;
therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."'

>>23820095
Matthew 10:29-31. Mark 9:38-41. John 9:1-12. John 11:25 when Jesus straight up tells Martha that He is the resurrection. Gospel of John has the most moving parts for me, very theological but very very intimate at the same time.

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart?
I tried googling answers but mostly got low brow responses from self-identified Reddit "anti-theists".

>>23821542
I usually end up recommending Gregory of Nyssa’s Life of Moses in these sorts of threads, but skimming it just now I don’t see this specifically addressed (I still recommend it).
I googled, John Chrysostom talks about it in Homily 68 in context of John 12:40. The page I saw (newadvent.org/fathers/240168.htm) quotes Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, get a free copy from ccel.org.
I found another page that says that the hebrew word chazaq gets translated as “harden” here but as “fortify” or “encourage” elsewhere. There may be an element of kjv translation confusion at work, along the lines of the famous child eating bear celebrated by edge lords everywhere.
God also mentions His motives in Exodus iirc.

>>23821827
>God also mentions His motives in Exodus iirc.
Glory? Or did I misunderstand

>>23821895
Pretty much, and keep in mind that He’s not flexing on Pharaoh, He’s flexing on the Egyptian gods. By not letting Pharaoh puss out those gods don’t get a pass either. When I was skimming Life of Moses earlier I noticed that he says that the rest of the Egyptians were also essentially on board so the plagues weren’t just unjust collective punishment. He also points out that the plagues were invisible to the hebrews. Note also that Caleb was counted among Israel, even to the point of being only one of two who left Egypt and was able to settle in the promised land, despite not being hebrew.
Egypt was the big dog at this point, the cradle of lots of civilization and pagan glory. Hang out on /x/ and you will see people to this day saying that they are the heirs of otherwise lost Atlantean wisdom etc. However, the biblical view is that those gods are still just created beings set as rulers over nations synthesized at the fall of Babel.
Seeing if I can post this, I am phone posting at starbucks.

>>23816299
>Study Bible
Why don't you just read the Bible instead of Bible with man's opinions sprinkled on top and diluting the words of God?

Do you get a soda or lemonade or glass of milk and add a bunch of water to it and water it down? But it's not just water, especially with the "orthodox" church, you're basically trying to drink the pure milk of the word of God and they added a bunch of high fructose corn syrup and carcinogen-filled sodas. But hey, it's a "diet" soda, so now you've got all those fake sugars instead which are worse than corn syrups.

Or you're trying to get a pure drink of water from a well, and someone has poisoned the well with a dead body.

The "orthodox" church is a dead church, they openly worship idols like the roman catholic church and they preach a false works-based gospel and they don't even know if they're going to heaven. The Bible says you can know you're going to heaven in 1st John 5:13, but all false religions have works-based salvation, a salvation that depends on what you do rather than what the Lord Jesus Christ has already done for us, the only way you can know for sure that you're saved is if it is not of yourself, as the Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9 and verse 10 thereafter says that we should walk in good works, but it doesn't say that our works have anything to do with salvation, instead the Bible says the opposite that it's by grace and not of works.

1 John 5:13
>These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9
>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
>Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:6
>And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

>>23816331
Read the book of John first (in the King James Bible), then read Romans. Then the rest of the gospels or just start in the New Testament.

>>23821927
Jesus didn't have long hair. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and God said it's a shame for men to have long hair, even nature should teach you that, even the unbelieving heathens and pagans typically know men should have short hair; yet you'd have God contradict himself, as he does in your false idol priest cults which love these idols and images and statues and paintings.

>>23821827
What confusion is there when Christ said not to call any man upon the earth father for one is your Father in heaven?

The Bible is always confusing to people who refuse to build their house on the rock which is Christ, they build their houses on sand and man's opinions and man's ungodly and blasphemous traditions like calling men "Father" and being more preoccupied with some "church father" rather than the Word of God because you're self-righteous and prideful works-based priest cult is more important to you than God. That's what always keeps people from accepting the gospel, pride, either they're not sick and have no need of a physician or they're boasting in their works and their life to save them, sometimes they won't even mention Jesus Christ when they're asked if they know if they're going to heaven.

The Nicene creed is Catholic trash anyway. The Bible teaches local churches, not a universal priest cult church or large denominations with a headquarters and top-down control.

You don't even need creeds when you have the Word of God, you substitute man's words for God's Word and obey man rather than God. It's not like any of those top-down controlled churches preach the whole counsel of God and preach hard against sins of today, they're more concerned with being loved by the world and conforming to the world or putting on a show to be seen of men with their gay robes and clothing and idols and vain rituals.

>>23822056
It worked. Now to see if I can remember what point I wanted to make.
These were highly exalted gods, they were great gods, the best. So if God smacks them in da nuggz that’s a gorilla pimp flex. He did that and was so fuck you about it that people still seethe about it to this day. We write our stories on paper, God writes his on nations.
Next, God synthesized a new nation, Israel, that had no angel set over it. God set Himself over it. This nation was mostly but not entirely constructed from hebrew bloodlines. Remember Caleb.
The point of this nation was not itself but what it produced, Jesus. This is all over the NT. God also talks shit at them in Exodus and beyond, it’s not like they’re the end of the story, they are a vehicle for reaching the real climax.
What if Pharaoh was like, sorry about that whole slavery thing, bros. You’re free now. Would the hebrews have left or would Israel have been formed in the wilderness? Right after the hebrews leave Egypt they start complaining about how they want to go back, even if it means slavery.

>>23822090
When you see all of God's actions as stepping stones towards the coming of Christ, everything starts to make sense.
Really makes you wonder why Jews are so hell-bent on rejecting him.

What do you guys think of the Gospel of Thomas

Bump

>>23822083
>Why don't you just read the Bible
Because that's what led to the ideological soup that is Protestantism. The Bible is simply not univocal, and no amount of "praying" and "Bible devotion" will change that. Also, the Bible itself says that only some are meant to be teachers, so how does that fit into your Bible idolatry?

>>23824158
Don't be a Pharisee.
>all Christians should aspire to have actual direct experience of God in deep contemplation, or theoria.

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>>23816299
Why do Orthodox Christians always talk about a Mexican chef named Ted?

Your best bet is to know the human condition better by careful study of original sin, the remarkable singularity of the crucifixion and the book of Enoch. To understand the crucifixion read also the epistle to the Hebrews.

>>23824179
How does this contradict what he said?

How do you reconcile the parts of Deuteronomy or Isaiah or other books of the OT where God explicitly condones rape and infanticide, with the NT?
Was Marcion right?

>What are your favorite parts of the Old Testament?
Isaiah 61:5-6
>Gentiles will shepherd your flocks and work your fields and vineyards.
>6 And you will be called priests of the LORD, you will be named ministers of our God. You will feed on the wealth of gentiles, and in their riches you will boast.
Deuteronomy 23:20
> You may charge a foreigner interest, but not a fellow Israelite, so that the Lord your God may bless you in everything you put your hand to in the land you are entering to possess.

>>23824368
When god does rape and murder it’s actually not evil because he’s god.
>Might makes right? No, we’re totally not pagans!

>>23824368
Where is rape justified?

>>23824432
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Numbers 31:15-18
Zechariah 14:1-2
Ezekiel 16 and 23
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

>>23818838
The idea of a non-Jewish person wasting his evening experiencing mind-numbing boredom because he got psyopped into reading Jewish genealogical trees is hilarious to me.

>>23824420
>>23824426
>>23824442
The idea of an atheist wasting his evening arguing against Christianity on 4chan is hilarious to me.
Why does Christ make you so angry?

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Someone who isn't trolling please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole deal of "God's chosen people" a consequence of God choosing Abraham, a virtuous man, to carry his covenant, and his descendants as well, which eventually leads to the tribes of Israel carrying the covenant; the goal being for God to use the Israelites as guides for the rest of humanity to also be redeemed, but obviously they messed this up by becoming Pharisees, so he has to send Christ instead?
That's how I interpret the whole Israelite deal, God choosing a good man to redeem humanity through his lineage, but the lineage eventually becoming corrupted.

>>23824467
It’s obvious Jews chose themselves, retard. They wanted Canaan so they made up an excuse to genocide its inhabitants.
>god said those gentiles are evil so it’s not wrong if we refuse diplomacy, take their land, rape their wives, and smash their infants’ heads.

>>23824467
Oh and furthermore, I've also heard it said that all the events of the Old Testament were just a moving of chess pieces across the board which was supposed to lead to Christ from the very beginning, as prophesized many times throughout the OT books. That the OT was more of a "causal necessity" for Jesus to be born than anything else.
I'd like anyone who is more educated than me on exegesis to chime in though.

>>23824440
The first Deut quote is part of laying out rules for conduct in warfare. They are pretty tame by ancient NE standards.
Numbers, don’t mess with tainted goods. Untainted falls under rules of spoil.
Zech and Ezek, if you abandon God you are on your own.
Second Deut is actually about taking responsibility for your rape and not just wiping off your dick and walking away.
Do you have other examples? These are a little flimsy.

>>23824525
I don't actually. This clears it up for me, thank you.

>>23824467
The bloodlines are a bottom up, human centric view. The top down view is more what it’s about.
I read like 5 pages of Yockey’s Imperium like 30 years ago. The only thing I remember was the image of basically a nation egregore. That, or something like that but presided over by a fallen angel, is the model for the non-Israelite nations.
From a bloodline perspective, God kept his promises pretty quickly and they are still being kept today—all the “greater Israel” real estate is controlled by descendants of Abraham (but much by way of Ishmael).
Those who accept Christ are the true Israel. Read Paul talking about grafting trees, this is what he is talking about. Israel is a top down, synthetic nation and has been since Exodus. Most of it uses hebrew bloodlines, the 12 tribes, but again Caleb provides a compelling counter example.
There are strong self power/other power themes in the Bible. We were never really capable of saving ourselves after the fall. Tikkun Olam and people having shards of divinity is extra-biblical.
Sorry, I’m super distracted, posting this so I can see your post and try to bring it back there.

>>23824493
Yes, for many Christians this is the correct perspective.

>>23817219

Job is not only beautiful, it is THE book that attempts to grapple with the very nature of creation, our place in it, the nature of good and evil, the nature of God, and his relationship with us. I would put it with equal importance to the gospels for those looking to live a Christian life.

>>23824467

Jews were chosen to be exemplars, but contrary to what they themselves believe(d), they are simply exemplars of humanity. Capable of both good and evil. Pride was their sin, as pride is the first and principle sin. But more importantly, their relationship with "their own" God serves as a lesson to the rest of humanity as to why God is hands off. Many people wonder, "if God is real, why doesn't he take a more active role on the behalf of the righteous?". Well, ancient Israel is meant to be the lesson for us as to why God doesn't do that for the rest of humanity.

>>23824567
>The top down view
I'm not sure I completely understand what you mean, sorry. As far as the books of the Septuagint are concerned, isn't the view of God making his covenant with Abraham's bloodline right?
>nation egregore
i.e. nations that were not Israel were worshiping false gods, yes. Although I sometimes ask myself why God didn't give to the Israelites the order to convert their enemies in a more subtle manner rather than simply subdue them.
>Those who accept Christ are the true Israel
As per the new covenant yeah, I was only asking about the OT events though. Speaking of bloodlines, do you know about >>23820851?
>shards of divinity
That's a gnostic view, although it doesn't really disagree with what you're saying. God invites man to partake in his energies in order to become godlike, so the potential exists, it's just that man is incapable of redeeming himself on his own, right?

Ok, sorry, was on a call for work and my phone was blowing up with a bunch of dumb texts (oh man, I didn’t mean that pun either).
You basically got it with your follow up.
When Jesus heals the blind man in John, He doesn’t just heal him, He mixes His spit and mud and applies that to the man’s eyes.
He also feeds the masses by using the loaves and fishes instead of just magically conjuring up food ex nihilo.
The Abram story is interesting because God calls him out of Ur in the chapter of Genesis right after the tower of babel chapter. There is a lot of chronological time between those events but there is a shared theme around construction of nations.
Ur was an old, well established and very pagan city at that point. But we also see later with Melchizedek that there was this underground thread of worship of the true God that still persisted. Genesis is pretty trippy.

>>23824584
>they are simply exemplars
>ancient Israel is meant to be the lesson for us as to why God doesn't do that for the rest of humanity.
Thank you anon, this unlocked something in terms of my understanding.

>>23824537
Thanks for asking in good faith, super refreshing. Have a great day.

What is the best study bible for Lutherans?

>>23824604
I’m looking at Gen 12:1-3 for the contract again. God promises a great nation. Yeah, there’s a lot of Arabs out there… In the KJV version I also see “in thee shall ALL families of the earth be blessed.”
You can read it as just bloodlines, and jews of today often do this for some reason. But it also really hints at something more universal. You see that other view in Paul a lot.
An aside, I try to say hebrew for a subset of Abraham’s bloodlines, Israel for people of God, jew for people who practice some form of judaism. Collapsing these down to “all the same thing” is either ignorance or pilpul imho.
The hebrews in the OT are total screw ups and God tells them as much over and over. It’s a little satisfying, ngl. But they really aren’t in a position to be that light to world. The last bit of Judges is all about how incapable of ruling themselves they are.
I gotta go back to those last words and blessings, I got nothing, but thanks for encouraging me to learn more (really fun thread overall, thanks to everyone who made it).
Another fun aside, the whole “jewishness is matrilineal” thing is super copey. OT is patrilineal and Ruth was from Moab which would make David himself a non-jew. They switched to matrilineal because their bloodlines got raped into oblivion. There are elements of this is Ezra iirc and the switch to matrilineal might finally occur in the talmud. Jews have a lot of heavy baggage, they don’t even know.
Intellectually the divine spark thing is preoccupying me these days because the consequences can take you some very different places. Athanasius, On the Incarnation, uses this metaphor for divinization: metal, when heated to red hot, takes on the qualities of fire… but it’s still not fire. We are created beings, full stop. Yeah, we can divinize. Yeah, we are called to be children of God and can outrank the angels. But we’re created. Helps keep you humble anyway.
I strongly recommend that book btw. It’s short, public domain (ccel.org) and super fundamental to understanding Nicene Christianity. Really lays out the main stuff. Basil, On the Holy Spirit is the one to read after that.

>>23824698
Trust your priest and ask him.
PSA, Orthodox uses LXX. West generally uses masoretic. They are different. This is why the Roman church only has three named angels eg.

>>23824700
>something more universal
I've only read the Gospels a couple years ago, but yeah I can't wait until I finish the OT and reach the NT so I can read it in full.
>hebrew for a subset of Abraham's bloodlines
A subset? Abraham isn't the patriarch of the whole of humanity so why, what else is there?
>The hebrews in the OT are total screw ups and God tells them as much over and over
kek I'm about halfway through Exodus and already seeing it.
>can't have just a few days of Moses not working some kind of miracle without the hebrews immediately relinquishing God and doing something retarded
It's appalling and funny at the same time
>last words and blessings
Here you go https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+49&version=KJV
>They switched to matrilineal because their bloodlines got raped into oblivion
I thought that was common knowledge though? Jews making their religion matrilineal to avoid it being snuffed out by conquest?
The Talmud predates Christ as an oral tradition but was written down (alongside the disgusting parts about Jesus) later, yeah?
>the consequences can take you some very different places
Self-worship yes, but I think that's why "shard" is a more appropriate word than "spark", actually don't some apocrypha use the former? I think even among the Gnostic sects, there were very few, if not none, who thought themselves as being self-sufficient (ontologically), they all believed they were mere shards of divinity to be reunited with the Father.
>I strongly recommend that book
Thank you friend, I'll check it out. Maybe once I'm done with the Bible, which shouldn't take too long since I'm reading through it unexpectedly quickly.

>>23816299
Genesis, I-II Samuel, Job, Psalms, and the prophets in small doses.

>>23824615

Many people ask ,"why doesn't God answer my prayers? Why doesn't God talk to us?". We should reflect on the question however of, "what if God did answer our prayers? What if he gave us what we wanted?". Very few people have the humility and self awareness to understand why that would be a bad idea.

>>23824781
Ishmael is a son of Abraham, his descendants are not hebrews but they occupy much of “greater Israel” today. The canaanites occupying that same real estate in the pentateuch and beyond come in part from Lot (Moab, Ammon) and Esau (Edom connections), so at least of Abram’s house and/or directly of his seed.
A lot of OT is pro wrestling hilarious if you look at it the right way. I flew through the historical books, they are very fun. Other parts drag, you will see sooner or later. Just keep your eyes in the boring parts, there is still some interesting stuff there.
The talmud was first codified in like 5th c AD in Babylon iirc. “Oral tradition” supposedly goes back to the people who waited at the bottom of Mt Sinai when Moses went to the top (and yet is somehow as or more authoritative???). Maimonides and his 13 points were middle ages…. Rabbinic Judaism is the heir of the pharisees, it is a break from Second Temple judaism and is anti-Christ, that’s just baked into it.
Studying the history is really eye opening in terms of seeing how abusively overloaded and conflated a lot of the terms are, especially when everyone always just says “the jews.”
My unpopular opinion, hinted at way up in this thread, is that no matter how much shit he pulled, Saul was considered off limits by David as God’s anointed. So instead David went to Moab and built a parallel economy. Saul eventually got his and David eventually became king. This is a political metaphor for our times.
Gnostics bug me and they are still legion. The idea of hylics, which falls out of an “I have a shard and you don’t” mentality, is really contrary to the incomparable love of Christ, and that’s just one point of arrogance and ignorance among many.

>>23824698
Lutheran Study Bible. Concordia. Buy the Book of Concord and Apocrypha, too

>>23824935
I see. This talk about history made me check out some articles and I ended up reading about how early Christianity was, according to historical consensus, closed off to gentiles before Paul made it more "open". Historians of Christianity seem very intent on downplaying the differences between early Christianity and Second Temple Judaism for some reason, and I don't really understand why.
Anyway, this made me come to the conclusion that these events should be taken from the opposite end, that is, by realizing that whatever was necessary in order for Christ to be revealed to humanity was put in motion by God, and that the events themselves don't have inherent meaning, as they were simply the steps towards realizing that ultimate goal. Is this a widespread opinion?
>Other parts drag
I guess it often alternates. Exodus is great as a whole but the instructions for the tabernacle weren't particularly engaging. As you say though, the contents of the Ark of the Covenant are an interesting detail as they're yet another hint towards the coming of Christ.
>Studying the history is really eye opening
As I said above, it seems to me (from a cursory glance at least) that historians tend to have an agenda. I've read claims that "the conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees was overblown" and that "NT accounts of the behavior of the Pharisees did not correspond to historical data". Yet they had him crucified, seems like a pretty big disagreement to me.
>This is a political metaphor for our times
I haven't gotten to David's story yet. Speaking of though, how much of the OT is metaphorical, and how much of it is genuine historical data, you think?
>they are still legion
I don't think there are many Gnostics today. All the sects aside from the Mandaeans have disappeared.
Hylics are an ugly concept, I agree. Probably more popular among the uncompromisingly dualistic sects like the Sethians, whereas Valentinians always struck me as just being Platonists with a particularly convoluted cosmology.
I actually find Marcion's take interesting and poetic though, in that he believed humanity to be devoid of the divine shard, and that salvation was granted entirely by the grace and love of the Father, who chooses to redeem a world of darkness for no other reason than because He is Good.

>>23825042
I contentedly yield to my church’s authority and traditions regarding the literalness of the Bible (just having fun with the sola scriptura poster). Look into the four levels of meaning and keep your eyes out for early Christians who missed out on beatification by going too far in on allegorical readings.
Every life is precious and the events themselves matter. If you reject the literalness you can end up with a very “dry” Christianity, which kind of misses the mark. Ruth is a really little book about a nobody but it’s a really good one, eg.
Objective history is hard to find. Those very first followers of Christ were Hellenized Jews who continued going to the Second Temple, which would already kind of be two strikes against them from a pharisee perspective.
Paul is super interesting and super based, I don’t think he was just some psyop or whatever you read about him on 4chan. He knows his stuff despite what he says about trying to preach without eloquence, it peeks through in his epistles. I reread Acts recently and am picking through epistles again these days. A lot of Acts gets devoted to the whole problem of gentiles and yeah, Paul really opened it up for us.
Bringing it back to the OT, in all those dreary lists of thou shalt nots, different laws apply to different people. In the NT where they reach the consensus that you can’t eat food offered to idols or engage in sexual immorality, the basis for this is in Leviticus. These were laws that also applied to strangers living among the Israelites, hence those laws being binding to gentile Christians, whereas those strangers did not have to be circumcised. And yeah, those laws define what sexual immorality is, it’s not just a vague blanket term subject to change.
I couldn’t read Paul for a long time but now I really like him.
Gnostic ideas are still kicking around. I took the scenic route back to Christianity and the ideas are all over occultism and new agey stuff. Every time someone does some shady dodge to avoid saying that Jesus is the Son of God or denying the resurrection even though they like the philosophy of the NT etc etc etc, it goes back to rehashing some 2000 year old bullshit whether they know it or not. Like saying Jesus was just a man but the Christ force descended on him when John mystically initiated him or whatever. It’s usually pride at the bottom of it and you can see it. They want to be cool with Jesus but always on their terms. Obedience and humility are very maligned virtues that actually take a lot of focused and directed will, introspection, attention.
Anyway my kids are almost home, I gotta call it for today. I love you and I hope you make it! Keep reading, keep going deeper, keep seeing where it takes you, it’s very much worth it and I say this as a baby myself.

>>23820095
It's less about individual passages and how as a whole it offers pieces of wisdom that can be found relevant in personal experiences and interactions.

>>23825465
>four levels of meaning
This is quite interesting, especially anagogical interpretation. I wouldn't really trust myself to be able to do it on my own though.
>the events themselves matter
Sometimes it's hard to figure out why they had to happen the way they did. Why like this and not like that, or whatever. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it, and God simply intervenes to the extent that his action will steer history in the right direction, rather than directly micromanage everything as some people believe.
I guess one of my issues is trying to figure out what was planned by God and what wasn't.
>I don't think he was just some psyop
I don't think so either, I'm not sure where that kind of criticism comes from. The fact that paulinian Christians were not the only early sect?
>Paul really opened it up for us
Case in point for the "planned by God" thing here. If Paul hadn't converted, would Christianity have remained closed off to gentiles? Aside from Luke 22:27 we don't have much that comes directly from Jesus in terms of universal salvation. But Genesis 22:18 implies God plans to eventually redeem the whole of humanity, not just Abraham's lineage. So why would some early Christians even believe it was jew-only? It's confusing.
>I took the scenic route
Yeah same. I spent a lot of time very invested in fringe theories and apocryphal readings. Some of them are interesting, but a lot of it is cope as you point out with the nature of Christ problem. Still, I don't think it's all trash, some apocryphal texts are interesting, and some poems are beautiful (like the Song of the Pearl, which is actually praised in Oriental Orthodoxy I think).
Enjoy your day, friend. Thank you for the talk, likewise I wish you the best.

>>23824158
Isn't there a verse in Ephesians that references "the spirit of the sword", encouraging all believers too read the scripture

How do you defeat pride and lust?

>>23816299
I started reading with the Gospels. I think I'll read the Old Testament after I finish that. I have read the Psalms though, and I go to them when I want lighter reading than the Gospels and to contemplate. As of now, I'd say the Psalms are my favorite.

>>23827626
Nobody here has defeated pride and lust. Aren't they typically regarded as the most aggressive sins?

But it helps to spend a lot of time in Scripture and in prayer.
You should also be wary of what normally triggers pride and lust in you so that you're prepared to respond to these attacks.
Saying the Jesus prayer and making the sign of the cross is also great ways of warding off pride and lust.

>>23829290
Job, Ecclesiastes, and Proverbs were the first things I read as a Christian, but you can never go wrong with the Gospels.
The Psalms are fantastic, especially when read aloud.

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What are some good passages for dealing with despondency/fatalism? Or books besides the Bible for that matter. I know God forgives if you repent, but I can’t help but feel hopeless and that he won’t forgive my sins no matter what

>>23829463
>Nobody here has defeated pride and lust
At least stopping urges to masturbate

>>23830683
I wrote a reply and it vanished. Here’s the crappy paraphrase. Consider confession, it’s underrated and gets a bad rap from people who go to therapy. Developing a mentality that you sin in front of Jesus and the saints and that you’ll have to tell some old geezer about it later is pretty effective. It can at least start you down the road from degenerate fetish porn to wholesome mf missionary porn. Baby steps.
+1 for crossing yourself. Non religiously, you are just building up self monitoring and catching yourself being drawn into bad habits. Religiously, sin has a demonic aspect and crossing yourself has a banishing function as does Jesus Prayer, Hail Mary or even just “Jesus, stand between me and evil.” This has saved me from many dumb spats with my narcissistic inlaws.
One other thing to try, I used to practice Buddhism pretty heavily, including a lot of loving kindness meditation. If you are horny for some chick, put yourself in her shoes, imagine the mundane aspects of her life, the little trials, disappointments, ups and downs, etc. This makes them full humans again. Lust is dehumanizing, for both the luster and lustee.

>>23830947
Thank you man I appreciate it

>>23829676
>What are some good passages for dealing with despondency/fatalism? Or books besides the Bible for that matter.
Read the lives of Saints Mary of Egypt, Moses the Black, Cyprian of Antioch, James the Ascetic, and the Apostle Paul. They were among the worst of the worst of sinners. If he forgives them of there sins, he will forgive you too.
>I can’t help but feel hopeless and that he won’t forgive my sins no matter what
Why do you feel that way? God forgives all sins and loves you, because God is love. When we say God won't forgive us, it means we are rejecting his mercy, and when we do say this, it's because we do not forgive ourselves. God forgives us, but his forgiveness isn't complete until we forgive ourselves. I'll say a pray for you, anon.

>>23829676
I had two cents for you in that post that vanished, too.
Prayer of St Ephraim is good, I like to say it at night. It’s traditionally a lenten prayer but it’s good year round. Include the prostrations so you are praying with your body, soul and spirit. Look at what you are asking to replace your despondency. Think about it and live it.
This reminded me of the literal vs allegorical theme above, you need both. Literal grounds you and makes it meaningful in the world. Allegorical helps your perspective and reminds you to look up every now and then.
St Teresa writes about aridities in prayer and about Martha and Mary.
Epistle of James has a throwaway line at the beginning about turning your trials into joys. Very deep and true, highest alchemy in terms of just living right. Not easy.
Read about obedience, it’s not passive or unthinking. Liguori among others. Mary and Joseph are strong models.
Matthew 10:29-31 gives you assurances. You are taken care of if you want it. Jesus’ love is very deep and very abiding. He really really REALLY loves you. I’ve heard that the saints aren’t better than us, they just kept going.

>>23830958
These threads are why I scroll through all the neechee and blood meridian chaff. Stay based.

To those of you who've converted to orthodoxy (were not brought up into the faith), how did you "choose" a specific denomination/church?

>>23831164
Shop around. I lucked into a really good Antiochian church. People there said they are often more convert friendly than some Greek or Russian churches but see for yourself. Look for families and young adults, those are healthy churches with a future. Listen to the homilies, you want a priest with a good head and a good heart. Stay for agape and see if you vibe with the people there.
I was raised Episcopalian but they’ve really gone off the rails. NO liturgy feels a little flimsy to me coming from a proper BoCP liturgical background. After studying magic/occultism (but not really practicing, thank you Lord), I wanted a church that actually believes in the sacraments, which is basically the old three (there are some OO churches near me, love and respect, but I can’t understand homilies in Egyptian). “Purely symbolic” Eucharist is again kinda weak.
I like a lot of RC writers, they have produced a lot of good mystics, they have a lot of VERY efficacious practices. I love you guys, I believe in ONE church and I pray for an end to schisms, just wanted to say it.
I gotta wipe my butt and take my kids to a birthday party, you guys keep this thread going and maybe I’ll make it back. Joy and blessings all around, may you walk in the peace of the Lord.

>>23831236
Do you think it would be stupid to consider the number of faithful worldwide as a criterion if I might have to move to other countries for work? For example I'm guessing greeks have a much larger and widely spread community than copts.
What do you mean by the old three?

>>23831314
Can’t hurt, especially if you want to take communion somewhere else. Distinctions disappear IN CHRIST so don’t let it be a deal breaker.
Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox. Prots are alright but you may not be getting a proper Eucharist if you go that route. St Teresa talks at length about the benefits of the Eucharist, in Way of Perfection iirc.

>>23831365
>especially if you want to take communion somewhere else
Yeah you can't take communion outside of your denomination so RC won't accept E/OO, EO won't accept RC and OO, OO won't accept EO and RC. Is that right?
I feel more strongly pulled towards orthodoxy than either roman catholicism or protestantism

>>23816299
I like Kings and Chronicles, even moreso any parts with Elijah and especially Elisha.

>>23831376
Yes. Or maybe (maybe) EO can take it in RC, but then you gotta tell your EO priest about it.
I’m really happy in my EO church and my son really likes it, which is what really matters for me. Shop around and do you. Take your time, you are making a possibly life long commitment.
The churches remind me of the part in the OT where Solomon’s successor is a dick but the kingdom of Israel side is also stuck up. Everyone suffers.

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>>23816299
Judges is very good narrative wise. Just one fuck up after another until it snowballs into a gigantic one at the end of the book.

>>23831398
I don't want it to take TOO much time either since even after finding a parish there's like one to three years of catechism before getting baptized. But I hear you.

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>>23816299

>>23831476
>>23824448

>>23831479

It's fun to unsettle gullible retard children by giving them a peek outside of their mental bubble.

>>23831490
May you be guided to the Truth. I love you and God does as well, no matter what you may believe.

>>23831365
Which prots have a proper Eucharist? Lutheran and Anglican, right?

Man, Leviticus was not very interesting. I hope Numbers will be better.

>>23831398
I'm very glad to hear that you son likes going to your Orthodox church with you.
I bring my toddler to my OCA church when I can. I hated church as a kid and I fear my son will as well, but I went to various Baptist and Pentecostal churches so I think the odds were stacked against me.

>>23831407
Attend services in a few of the parishes nearby. I think the right one will call to you before too long. Check out a Byzantine Catholic church is you're torn between RC and Orthodoxy. I settled at an Orthodox Church of America parish (not that I have many options) and could not be happier about it.

>>23831476
Many of us have been atheist before (or some other non-Christian sect). For me it's not as much a bubble as it is a conclusion I've drawn based on countless experiences that can only be attributed to God's grace.

>>23820095
>Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20

>>23821542
Read Exodus again, because God explained why he hardened Pharaoh’s heart more than once.

>>23831811
kek idk if you intended a joke

>>23831010
>>23831043
Thank you

>>23832204
Numbers is even more boring?

>>23817295
which edition of the vulgate are you reading?

>>23816299
what is everyone's thoughts on bible book order? i think the typical christian order is a bit unusual, with Ezra being right after 2 chronicles, which skips all of the prophets like isaiah and jermemiah which would be read much later. it would be nice to have a chronological bible, but i understand that would be a bit difficult with the ambiguous placing of the wisdom books such as job

>>23822087
There are several parts of the NT where people call spiritual leaders "father" could it be that Paul and others were going against the teaching of Jesus? or is it more likely that you are misinterpreting the passages?

>>23816299
I recently finished Judges and the 2 books of Samuel and those are pretty fun to read. Content wise they almost feel a bit like greek hero tragedies and epics to me, rather than the previous books of the OT. Not sure if there was any overlap with inspirations between those 2 cultures or if that's just coincidental though.

>>23824713
>This is why the Roman church only has three named angels eg.
Could you please elaborate on this? I know we have Michael, Gabriel and Raphael (from Tobit) but what are these other angels that you mention?

>>23816299
for me, its the Proverbs
and Ecclesiasticus
and Ecclesiastes
and Job
and Psalms

>>23820095
The whole of the upper room discourse in John has always been extraordinarily powerful to me. John is my favourite by far. That book is so powerful it's unbelievable.

Outside of that I'd have to say Romans 7:14-25 has been a very relatable part for me personally.

>>23833399
the first few chapters are a census, a list of names lol although there are some chapters where stuff happens

>>23833889
>fire snakes for those who grumble!
Pentateuch are some of the best of the OT

>>23833697
Interested in this too

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>>23824467
Abraham's descendants show that simply being a part of a special club and keeping a set of special rules won't save a single man if his heart isn't ultimately animated by the love of God (ex: The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector). Only God can spark such a love in a man, hence the name of Jesus—"God saves".
>“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.
Jesus Christ is mentioned throughout the OT. Even Abraham's celebrated show of trust in God (the attempted sacrifice of his son) is itself a prototype for God's own show of love toward us.

>>23833697
>>23835106
Hit and run post, apologies. Look up “seven archangels” on wikipedia, also look for an old but lengthy and interesting article on thavmapub. You may or may not agree with his conclusions, but the guy at least does his own research.
Uriel is one of the other named ones outside of RC e.g.
In EO, there’s kind of a pecking order of books. I may be misremembering, but go look for Hopko’s lectures on Revelation on Ancient Faith Radio site (interesting series, lots of really good lectures above and beyond that, with transcripts). That book almost didn’t make the Bible, but ultimately it did. He talks about it as a liturgical book, neat take. More generally, books in the Bible can be read in church during the liturgy.
There’s another class of books where the church is like, yeah, these are good (not necessarily divinely inspired), read them at home. So some names may come in that way.
And don’t forget, EO uses septuagint (LXX), not masoretic, so that’s another cause of some bifurcation (and another wikipedia rabbit hole worth going down on a lazy Sunday).
In XC.

I'm not really sold. I want to believe. I just can't. I believe a god or creator exist I just am not convinced it's Yahweh or Jesus.

Just finished Mere Christianity. Should I give up and be a heathen or read a different book

>>23835581
Do you have a prayer life? If you “have no idea what to pray about,” Rosary is great because it’s “programmed” (I use this as a pre-computer technical term, I used to follow a programmed meditation practice when I was still a practicing Buddhist). The mysteries give your brain something to chew on if your mind would otherwise wander and can guide your readIng. It really converted my heart, Tomberg did a lot to convert my mind (not for everyone but definitely impactful for me, really a warm and loving soul but also knew his stuff).
Occultists talk about the lurker on the threshold. You start practicing but then hit this block and it almost has this personal aspect to it. I feel like finding Jesus is like that. I had this feeling of standing on a precipice, like very nervey and you absolutely cannot bullshit around it. You really gotta resolve to be on His team and walk where He walks. It’s not a trivial thing and it’s not intellectual. It should sound scary and fucked up to you. If you can make it to the other side, His love is incomparable. That alone is worth the price of admission. Read around here, once people make it “things just start lining up.” There’s the part where He promises life, life more abundantly. He keeps His promises, you can see it all through the OT and beyond, even if you fuck around with your side He still keeps His word and is always so happy when you make it back. It’s REAL and if you get the littlest taste your faith can’t be touched because it has an empirical basis and is written all over you.
But you gotta take that first step—knock, then He answers. Prayer can take you there in a way books can’t. Pray for discernment and look up the “gift of tears,” it’s real and a good sign.
In the words of 4chan, “Do it, faggot!”

>>23835581

Intellectually or spiritually are you having trouble believing? I can help you from a pure reason standpoint, but spiritually I'm not there yet myself. >>23835643 I think is good, I don't pray that way myself but I probably should try. I have a different philosophy for prayer.
Although, someone once told me prayer can sometimes be more of a conversation with yourself than with God. You see, God already knows what you want to say, he already knows your heart, but it's up to YOU to know what you want to say, up to you to find the fire burning in your heart. If you can't be honest with yourself and reflect on your own actions, feelings, and problems, than how is God supposed to help you? If your heart is closed to yourself how can it be open to God? Job famously laid out his soul in his lamentations, and as much as he was talking to God he was talking to himself, and only when he had fully spoken HIS truth, laid out his heart on the sacrificial alter, did God illumine him.

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>>23835581
Mere Christianity is great, but I'd suggest you go to the Bible as well before giving up entirely.
There's a lot of great literature from a number of genres throughout the Bible, so I'm sure you could find something that calls to you.

Jonah is an underrated book that is incredibly short and approachable. Its tone is almost satirical. It reads like a parable about how not to be a prophet.
Reading Jonah will also inform some of your reading of the Gospels when Jesus talks about the "mark of Jonah"

>>23835581
If a god exists, and we obviously have the capacity to search for him and believe in him, wouldn't it make sense that he revealed himself to us in some way? that alone narrows it down a lot to just (claimed) revealed religions. look at these claims and evaluate them. i believe you will lean towards christianity

>>23821183
Very good resource for helping Christians (mostly Americans) understand the poetic qualities of Christian tradition that got muted in American Protestantism.

>>23821542
I always take it as the "hardening" isn't God's active doing but God knowing what will happen when Pharaoh's pride is confronted. The other answer is that it's God's way of having Pharaoh follow his initial instincts (i.e. his free will) of rejecting God rather than be swayed by his subjects who keep pressuring him to basically surrender to Yahweh and spare Egypt.

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>>23835838
>but it's up to YOU to know what you want to say

There's nothing wrong with having personal petitions in your prayer life, but I don't think they should be the only prayers in your life.

Embracing a prayer rule is a great way to start and end the day and have a meditative property to them that isn't usually achieved when you're thinking of what to say next in your petition.

I like reading (aloud) a kathisma from the Psalter during my evening prayers. You'll find a lot of passages and poems that speak to your current situation by the time you've finished reading.

>>23822083
Why do you fear the commentaries of Orthodox/Catholic theologians from ancient times, yet wholeheartedly trust the opinions of the Enlightenment-era translators of a bible edition named after a pansexual occultist?

>>23831476
>https://warosu.org/lit/image/uTc8LQ+SCa2D4sQery+vzw
seriously get a life dude lmao

>>23835907

Honestly, I don't think I "get" prayer in that sense. I don't think I understand, not really. Let me try and formulate my thoughts here. I see things like the Rosary and "prayer rules" as examples to be exercised and reflected on so that you may eventually formulate your own...prayer rules and rosaries??? Does that make sense? But maybe, that's exactly what they are? I'm just very wary of the "vain" repetitions that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 6. I feel like many times someone says, for example, recite the Rosary or pray like this, but they don't understand what it really means, or don't help you understand what it means. Somehow you repeating it will get you to understand... Maybe it does though? If you are conscious of that, perhaps you reflect on the content of these prayers, a different bit each time? Maybe not all at once. Could they help solidify things you want to say. Maybe you cant think of what to say, but you want to say something anyways. Sometimes it just might be the act of taking to time and sticking to a rule is what's important, irregardless of the actual content, as a means to remind yourself what is important (God).

You know anon, thank you. You've changed my outlook on this topic, I feel like you've imparted a substantial wisdom with your simple answer. God bless.

>>23822083
>Why don't you just read the Bible instead of Bible with man's opinions sprinkled on top and diluting the words of God?
Do you really believe that you just happen to read the Bible and then correctly get the right interpretation? Your pride makes you believe that your interpretations are an accurate representation of the Word of God.
>Jesus didn't have long hair. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and God said it's a shame for men to have long hair
Numbers 6:5
>All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the Lord, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow

>>23822087
>The Nicene creed is Catholic trash anyway. The Bible teaches local churches, not a universal priest cult church or large denominations with a headquarters and top-down control.
There is scriptural precedence for Ecumenical Councils in the Book of Acts, when all the Church leaders gathered in Jersalum to decide whether converted gentiles should follow the Jewish laws or not. The body of Christ is unified in belief and in mind. Christ said "let the be one as you and I are one." Also, where exactly do you have a problem with the Nicene Creed?

>>23816299
Out of curiosity, why did you choose the Orthodox Study Bible? I'm looking to read through the Bible (not religious, anymore) and wondering if there's anything better for academic/literary purposes than a standard KJV

Anyone who's interested in OSB look up the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, for every single verse in the Bible there are like 4 different commentaries from different church fathers. you get a lot more out of it than OSB (I have both)

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>>23836156
The main difference between the Bible used by Orthodox/Catholics and Protestants is in the Old Testament.

The OT in the Orthodox Study Bible is based on the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the OT. This includes books like the Maccabees which were written in Greek by Hebrews after their return from exile.

The Protestant Bible omits several of these texts because they use the Masoretic texts, which the reformers erroneously believed to be more authentic for whatever reason.

I'm a bit biased, so you can do your own research on which text is more authentic, but if you're not reading for religious purposes, you'll simply miss out some amount of history due to the omissions in the Protestant Bible.

Theologically speaking, I didn't find anything in these texts that conflicts with Protestant beliefs, so I don't get what the big deal is.

Picrel is icon of the Maccabean martyrs who prefigured countless Christian martyrs to come.

>>23835993
Glad the response helped, anon.

> I'm just very wary of the "vain" repetitions that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 6
This is fair, so you must strive to not be vain in your prayers. You search for the wisdom in the parts of the prayers you don't understand and you pray wholeheartedly in the parts you do understand.

>perhaps you reflect on the content of these prayers, a different bit each time
Absolutely. I don't pray the Rosary, that's an RC thing, and the Orthodox prayers are a bit more diverse in their content, so you have more ground to cover as far as interpreting the prayers is concerned.

>Sometimes it just might be the act of taking to time and sticking to a rule is what's important, regardless of the actual content, as a means to remind yourself what is important (God).
You got it, the act of willfully communing with God is a noble pursuit and it's not an easy one.
Think of how much the bodiless enemies that wage war against you seethe when you spend your time this way instead of being hooked by their temptations.

>>23836768
I’ve read that St Seraphim of Sarov prayed the Rosary daily! Otherwise all good points and more succinct than I could ever be, thanks.

Reinforcements are required here:
>>23835759

>>23836986
Arguing on the internet is a waste of time. Just wish people well and move on.

>>23836768
Not him but is it true that the Jesus prayer is the be all end all of all prayers?

>>23816299
I like the bit where Yahweh creates rainbows as a note to self to never genocide humans (by flooding) ever again

How long does it take to go from catechumen to being baptized?

>>23816299
1 Samuel - Esther

>>23818961
Jesus dies

I finished the Bible 5 years ago but I'm a tranny fag so I can't follow it but I do enjoy reading it daily

>>23836793
That's good to know! I'll have to look into praying the Rosary. I haven't done it since I was torn between RC and Orthodoxy. I didn't see it in my prayer book so I made an assumption.

>>23837723
I've heard this too, but I wouldn't say it necessarily replaces all other prayers or makes other prayers obsolete. The Jesus prayer is very conducive to the continual prayer that St Paul encouraged. I see it as one of the only prayers that is guaranteed to be granted.

>>23837786
One to three years is the rule of thumb, but it depends on your priest and your devotion.

>>23837832
>One to three years
Wew, that's a long time. I feel a sense of urgency, I wish it were quicker.

>>23837836
3 years was the typical amount of time for the catechumenate back then, and you also had to wait until Easter to be baptized. Nowadays, it'll be 1-3 years, depending on devotion, whether you're an atheist, or converting from Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, or another religion; and jurisdiction.

>tfw slogging through Numbers
Man I can't wait to know what gifts Abidan, the son of Gideoni, ruler of the children of Benjamin, brought to the temple

>>23837855
>whether you're an atheist
I'm not, but I don't know how I should mention my eastern philosophy and esotericism phase.
>jurisdiction
What does that mean?
Also I'm guessing it takes longer if the priest is in another city and I can't see him physically very often?

Former Mormon here. I'm heavily considering becoming Catholic but I keep dragging my feet. Is there anything I could read to help me take the next step?

>>23837836
I am a catechumen so I can relate, but this period is for our own good.
It is good to hunger and thirst after the Lord, but it's also good to know that you're ready to commit yourself fully to your new life in the Church.

If you're like me, you'll run into a lot of obstacles that will try to cause you to stray from the path. Overcoming these obstacles as the seasons change will be for our edification.

>>23837815
What's your intent when reading Scripture? Genuinely curious about what it's like in your shoes. Are you an atheist reading Scripture for universal wisdom?

>>23837863
>I'm not, but I don't know how I should mention my eastern philosophy and esotericism phase.
I'm sure your priest has heard it all before.
>What does that mean?
There are many Orthodox church jurisdictions, like Russian, ROCOR, Antiochian, Greek, Romanian, Serbian, etc. There are all Orthodox and believe the same, but have different cultural expressions. Some jurisdictions are more strict than others.

>>23837874
>you'll run into a lot of obstacles
Which ones did you run into, if you don't mind me asking?

>>23837978
I guess.
>There are many Orthodox church jurisdictions
This is kind of a stupid question but how am I supposed to choose?

>>23837874
The first time I read it was too study it and find peace and learn everything I could about it

Muslim here.

Currently going through all the books of the Bible.

I'm reading everything out loud as practice for some things.

Also reading for context since the books of the Bible greatly influence European and American culture.

And reading to see how the books of the Bible deviate from what's in the Qur'an.

Currently groing through the book of Acts.

>>23838018
>This is kind of a stupid question but how am I supposed to choose?
DESU, I don't think it matters all that much, but there are some factors which may influence your decision, like politics (ex. the Greek and Russian churches are not in communion with each other due to the war in Ukraine and the Ecumenical Patriarch granting Ukraine autocephalousy), whether you want to celebrate feast days on the Gregorian or Julian calendar (do you like Christmas on December 25th or January 7th), prefer Byzantine-Rite or Western-Rite, or whether the services are spoken in your language (I assume English is your first language).

>>23838166
I don't care about politics to be honest
>Gregorian or Julian calendar
I'm not educated about the implications of that, if there are any.
>Byzantine-Rite or Western-Rite
I guess I'd have to attend mass first to know
>whether the services are spoken in your language
That's important to me since I'd like to understand what is being said. I speak/understand English, French and Spanish, but I don't speak Greek, Russian, Romanian or Arabic, or any of the main languages of the Orthodox churches.

>>23838018

I'm happy to talk about it.
Basically my wife and I grew up protestant. We each fell away from the faith for one reason or another.
We were both secular when we got married.
Then I became Christian and went to some generic non-denom church until I was led to Orthodoxy.

It is difficult to be fully engrossed in the Orthodox faith while in a secular marriage, as ours is a living faith. The faith encompasses large amounts of our daily life, from morning to evening prayers, to attending church services, reading Scripture, etc.

My church is an hour away and we have a toddler in the house.

So basically I'm alienated from my Protestant and atheist family members.
I don't have the luxury of my wife being at church to help with my son when I bring him.
My wife isn't fully on board with fasting for meals, which presents its own challenges. My wife is supportive of my faith and admires my devotion, but I can feel that many days when I go to church she wishes I would stay home. This is natural, and I want to stay home too, but not so much as I want to be at church.

I feel like when I was new to the Church I was asking myself "Is it worth it?" given how much of a struggle it was.
But life before the Church was like life in Plato's cave. I can't willingly go back to being shackled on the bench down there. It's 100% worth it despite the struggle, and I have it easy compared to the Christians were actively persecuted for their faith.

Oh, and try out the parishes near you. I ended up at an OCA church not because I researched the different jurisdictions, but because my options are limited and I feel at home there.

>>23838091
Can you tell about the Muslim view of Jesus?
Or about the Muslim view of the Old Testament?
How do you feel about these things after reading the Gospels (assuming you read them before moving onto Acts)?

>>23838180
The main issues you ran into were because of your home life and marriage then? I can understand that, it does seem like it would be hard especially if the person you're married to isn't Orthodox. She's uninterested in converting?
Do your non-Orthodox family members resent your choices or are they fine with it, just disconnected with the faith?

I live in Europe, no OCA here but close to me there's Greek and Russian churches so I'll probably choose between those two.

>>23838018
See what’s in your area, go see what that church is like. Some are more convert friendly than others, some may be more national in a way that may be hard to break into. Look for families and young adults, those churches have a future. Listen to some homilies as a way to get a feel for what the priest is like. If you are looking for community, see what extra activities they offer. Stay for agape and see if you actually like the other parishioners or not.

>>23838222
>some may be more national
That's what I'm scared of, that the community will be tight knit because of shared ethnicity and not really open to outsiders
Can I just go to mass once and not participate in anything since I know nothing about liturgy, and just get a feel for how the church is, is that frowned upon?

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>>23838209
>The main issues you ran into were because of your home life and marriage then?
Correct, this is the most difficult part.
There are other difficulties, like making time for prayers, giving up unhealthy habits, etc., but those are nothing compared to the stress of the marriage situation.

I pray about this situation a lot and have seen some results lately. She's not so hostile to the idea of being Christian these days and agreed to go to a Vespers service this weekend.

It's not much, but it's a start. I will continue praying for her full conversion and for my family to be joined to Christ's flock in unity til my dying breath if I have to, I only need to be patient until they come around.

The non-Orthodox family (my in-laws specifically) just mock what they don't understand. I used to go to their church, so perhaps they feel a bit abandoned. They're not really resentful though, because at the end of the day their daughter is married to a Christian, which is what they wanted.

I'm glad you have access to both Greek and Russian churches, having that option is a real blessing. I'm sure one church will stand out to you either through the beauty of the liturgy or the people you meet.

>>23838225
Why not? If they turn you away it’s probably not the church for you.
Orthodox crosses themselves right to left, opposite of Catholics. And be ready to stand for a while. You now know enough to show up ;)

>>23838177
>I'm not educated about the implications of that, if there are any.
I doesn't matter all that much. The only thing it effects is the duration of the Apostles Fast, which is 13 days shorter on the New Calendar, and in some cases can be totally abrogated, like it was this year.
>I guess I'd have to attend mass first to know
Western-Rite is very similar to Anglican, Lutheran, and Traditional Latin Mass. I don't really know how to explain Byzantine-Rite. I hardly had a Christian upbringing.

>>23836747
The reason it was omitted was just to cut costs. Studying them wasn't (and still isn't) necessary for salvation. Doctrine isn't built on it, but they're still read in lectionaries (in Catholic and Protestant Churches).
An authorized King James Bible with apocrypha will have 80, but like already said, that's expensive. That's really it. Plus, nowadays people can Google KJV apocryphal books online (or maybe read the NRSV).

>>23838255
Protestants cut out those books because they thought they weren't divinely inspired, and Martin Luther was opposed to prayering for the dead, which is in 2 Maccabees, and had that removed.

>>23838241
This is not unheard of. One guy at my church had his marriage fall apart once he converted, which is kind of crazy.
When my son and I finally got baptized our sponsor told us something would happen to try us. The next time we went to church it was Palm Sunday. It was extra crowded and some lady helping to run agape basically demanded a cash donation from my son, an 8 year old dressed all in white, just to get some food. This pissed my wife off enough that she hasn’t gone back.
A bunch of other parishioners stepped in to be like wtf, but it was already too late for her. The church she grew up in got all twisted over money shit so it really touched a nerve. Fortunately she and I have a really good marriage so we have our peace with each other and she recognizes that my son is really into church. It’s still kind of a shame but if I try to push her it will just be trouble all around so I’m just being patient and waiting for love to conquer all.
My parents are still Episcopalian. I took them to one service when they were visiting and my mom asked about female clergy and whether lgbt would be welcome. I told her we view Paul as scriptural and that they would be welcome but on the church’s terms, not theirs. Not for her but she is at least supportive of us—she sent me a nice orthodox cross as a “I respect your decision” sort of gift.
It’s interesting that you will hear all sorts of stories like this, freedom of religion and respect for differing viewpoints be damned.

>>23838241
Did you consciously need to structure your life differently or did it come progressively and naturally to you, things like prayer, noticing bad habits and such?
It seems hopeful then from what you're saying, that's good, I hope your wife ends up joining you in the faith anon.
People mocking what they don't understand is pretty relatable, part of my family is agnostic or atheist and I haven't even told them about wanting to convert because of that.
I hope one does stand out and makes the choice obvious to me. We'll see how it goes next sunday I guess.

>>23838243
You're right, if it's not welcoming then I guess that'll give me my answer.
Some Orthodox cross themselves with their left hand don't they?

>>23838250
I'm sure the priest will tell me about all these details once I express my desire to convert anyway.

>>23838284
>part of my family is agnostic or atheist and I haven't even told them about wanting to convert because of that.
If you love Christ, you must not be ashamed of your faith. Your family will find out one day, and you must be prepared to defend the faith and to receive insults and mockery without paying back evil with evil. Suffering for Christ is part-and-parcel of being a true Christian.

>>23838352
I haven't shared it with them as in advertising or proselytizing, because I doubt they'd have anything good to say about my choice to become a Christian, but I definitely won't hide it. I'll even ask them if they want to come to my baptism once it happens.

>>23816299
I like the part where yahweh pranks moses and his buddies and makes them walk in the desert for 40 years when they could've walked that distance in a week

>>23838255
Even if they aren't necessary for salvation, they're not harmful, and I really liked a lot of the stories that were removed. The stories from Daniel in particular were very interesting.

The other anon pointed out the prayers to the dead from 2 Maccabees, but I think most Protestants chalk this up to Sheol since that's different from the Kingdom of God.

>>23838279
It's a bummer that your wife got turned away from the Church like that, but I have to once again say how great it is that your son is so interested in church. Hopefully your wife comes around one day.

It's interesting how an experience at church can drive a wedge between a person and God. It happened to me (raised in a Pentecostal church, batshit crazy stuff went on in there), and it happened to my wife who is still very prejudiced against God and church.

>>23838284
I restructured my life gradually. As an Orthodox inquirer, my priest gave me a very light prayer rule and I did not fast. I went to church when it was convenient and tried not to miss Divine Liturgy unless something came up.

Then I started praying more seriously.
Then I told my priest that I wanted to be a catechumen and he said we need to be at church at 80% of all services, so I started going to all the Vespers I could in addition to Divine Liturgy.
Then I starting learning how to fast in my house despite my wife being atheist.
Then I started cutting back on nonstop media feeds from YouTube, Netflix, etc., cut back on video games, the works.

It's like the more devoted you get to God and the faith, you more you realize what things in your life are deviations from God and you start to make adjustments.
The path is gradual and winding, and I'm still trying to find my way.

>>23838180
>Can you tell me about the Muslim view of Jesus?
Qur’an 2:87:
… And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.

Qur’an 4:171:
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about God except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was but a messenger of God and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, God is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is God as Disposer of affairs.

Qur’an 4:156-157:
And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

>Or about the Muslim view of the Old Testament?
Qur’an 5:44:
Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to God] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of God, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price [i.e., worldly gain]. And whoever does not judge by what God has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

Qur’an 17:55:
…And We have made some of the prophets exceed others [in various ways], and to David We gave the book [of Psalms]

And many events in the Old Testament are referred to, such as events involving Job and Jonah and Saul.

>How do you feel about these things after reading the Gospels (assuming you read them before moving onto Acts)?
Most things do not seem to go against the Qur’an. But some things are denied through the Qur’an. These differences can be subtle but extremely blasphemous to what is in the Qur’an.

[Note that the Arabic for He and Him can refer to what is unknown as well as to what is male. God is not male or female.
Qur'an 42:11:
... There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.]

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>>23838180
And I highly recommend reading the Qur'an.

Go to quran.com and set it to Saheeh International English translation and word for word translation.

It should look like the attached picture.

>>23838385
Oh no, I agree 100%. I was simply trying to explain why they aren't in most physical (Protestant) bibles. After I finish the New and Old Testament, I plan to read the Apocrypha.

>>23838424
Thanks for filling us in.
My priest always refers to Islam is a combination of gnostic heresies, and now I can see what he means.

I appreciate that you're taking the time to study the Bible. I've had a copy of the Qur'an on my shelf for a very long time, but it seems foolish for me to read it when there is so much wisdom in the texts of the Church fathers that I could read instead.

Though familiarity with the Qur'an would make it easier for me to talk to Muslims, not that I meet that many irl.

>>23838816
Ah, I see. I guess I take for granted how readily accessible printing technology is these days.

>>23833679
Clementine

>>23837864
You can read books arguing for why you should be Christian, or be Catholic instead of another branch, but you can't really "read" your way into experiencing things. Devote time and risk actually trying it to get skin in the game. Just go to a Mass on Sunday and see how you feel. (Really important caveat, do NOT go up to get Eucharist until you are formally admitted into Catholicism.)

Another thing I've heard from converts but don't really have experience with cause I was born into Catholicism is that RCIA (the process of formally joining Catholicism culminating in Baptism and possibly first taking of Eucharist) is that it can take a while, maybe even a year. Which is bad if you're "booksmart" about it and want to get going, but good in a way because it weeds out people who aren't serious.

>>23838385
>we need to be at church at 80% of all services
How does that work if you have a full-time job?
>cutting back on nonstop media feeds
You don't watch any shows or listen to music anymore?

Is Jay Dyer just a meme or does he have interesting stuff to say

>>23839657
Services are in the evenings for the most part. If you can't make some of them, you can't make them. Midweek feast days are an exception but those are worth some moving around of the work schedule.

I still watch movies and TV, I just don't always have one earbud in listening to some YouTube videos or podcast nonstop. This is less exclusive to the faith and more of a well-being thing that benefits my faith, as allowing yourself some boredom here and there makes room for reflection and meditation.

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How hard is it to get accepted into a monastic order?

>>23840006
This post on Death to the World discusses this topic.
https://deathtotheworld.com/articles/fasting-of-the-eyes/

>>23839725
from what i have seen he comes across as a smug reactionary alt-right grifting debater type more pre-occupied with the aesthetics of eastern orthodoxy to "own the libs" and with injecting himself into frivolous manosphere crap and le anti-woke comedy crap. wholly uninteresting to me, but i could be wrong.

>>23838858
Each sura is pretty short. The one on Maryam might be a good one if you’re really only going to look at one. I’ve read a good chunk of the Quran way back before I got called back to Christ, it got me to start giving to charity.
I heard Mohammed had a Nestorian uncle. Yes, Jesus gets a lot more love and respect than He gets in the talmud, but there are also gnostic takes on His divinity and (maybe?) crucifiction.
Islam gets a chapter in Belloc’s book on heresies for any of his (or Chesterton’s) fans itt.
>>23840231
A little humility goes a long way.

>>23838858
There are about two billion Muslims on the planet. The Qur'an provides a lot of context as to how they live and what they actually believe, regardless of the propaganda. You'd be surprised how similar Qur'anic ideas are to those contained in the books of the Bible.
The Qur'an has many short chapters located at the end that can be read within literally a few minutes. I recommend reading those chapters and gradually reading the longer chapters. It really is an easy, shorter read, especially if you're used to the books of the Bible.

I want to go through all the books of the Bible many times before I even read the Talmud or anything related to the New Testament.

What is the nature of this world according to Christian doctrine? What was the Fall exactly?

>>23840857
Man, this question seems above my pay grade, but I'll try.

God has always given Man free will, as He does not wish to make slaves of us. It's my understanding that He wants us to join into his will voluntarily with joy and love for Him in our hearts.

So if you read the story of Adam and Eve in the garden, you'll see that Eve disobeys God's command to not eat the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The serpent convinces them that they will be like God if they eat the fruit (the irony here is that they were already made like God by being in his image). They are seduced by this appetite and choose to serve their will rather than God's.

This is the Fall. Will you cooperate with God's commandments and His will, or will you follow your will?

A key concept in the story of the Fall is that Adam and Eve were seduced by the serpent. They weren't actively trying to be evil, but they made a choice that would serve them instead of serving God.

Today, we don't typically have talking serpents seducing us, at least not as transparently as its shown in Eden. Rather, we will be seduced by our love for wealth, food, sex, pleasure, notoriety, etc.

The question becomes "how do we discern God's will?" and we're all figuring this out, but the commandments and the Gospels give us a great place to start.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

>>23840857
Athanasius, On the Incarnation directly goes into the consequence of the Fall and Jesus’ role in fixing things up. Short, very readable, very fundamental.
Someone needs to say something intelligent about Maximus the Confessor in regards to this topic please.

>>23841164
Why has the notion of original sin never led into acosmism? Putting aside the gnostics, not one Christian mystic or philosopher ever expressed the idea of the world being on a spectrum of reality vs. unreality, where heaven would be more real by virtue of not containing sin, and this world would be less real or more illusory by virtue of being fallen. It would make sense from a neoplatonist standpoint and yet Christianity seems to lack this inclination towards an acosmic worldview, which is interesting considering its roots and how easily the idea of a world fallen through sin lends itself to considering the world as illusory or unreal.

>>23841237
I think it's because the idea of a Fall necessarily implies that the thing which fell still exists in some form. The world we see with our eyes and feel with our hands is the same world which changed due to the events in the Garden, and it is the same world that will be restored in the life to come - we are not slipping from one reality to another, or ascending and descending on a ladder of being as in Plotinus. Reinforcing this is the fact of the Incarnation - God came down to this world and lived in it, rather than remaining some eternally ineffable Other which man can only reach apophatically or mystically.
Source: dude trust me

>had a dream that my cousin who's into fringe theories and got me interested in esotericism told me to "drop all this nonsense and join the Orthodox Church, the only truth"
Pretty weird.

>>23816299
The "Orthodox" Study Bible is a counterfeit translation by a Protestant publishing house that diverges from its source texts:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=We-LP4LW22M&t=31m46s
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7BzYh3WskL4&t=25m33s
The Eastern Orthodox Bible is better, but they never finished the Old Testament

What exactly is so good about the Bible? I know none of you are reading and praying on it like you're supposed to. What's your endgame?

>>23844002
What's the point of asking a question in such a way that makes it evident you've already made up your mind about the answer?

>>23844002
What's the point of being rude? Why don't you just live your life and stop worrying about other people you don't like?

>>23844060
>>23844084
It's a legitimate question. Christians believe the Bible is the literal word of God handed down to man and should be read for prayer and reflection. /lit/ treats it like it's a literary endeavor - what for?

>>23844207
>Christians believe the Bible is the literal word of God handed down to man and should be read for prayer and reflection.
Indeed we do. So what's your question exactly?

>>23844207
No. You said that Christians don't even really apply what they read. You started off with being rude. You weren't intending to really ask a question but to start something.

But here's my answer to your question: Different people believe different things. It's just where their hearts are. There is no particular reason why. It is what it is.

>>23844207
>/lit/ treats it like it's a literary endeavor
It has influenced western culture and literature more than any other existing text. Don't you think it would be interesting to read the source?

>>23844352
Agreed.

I read the Qur'an and the books of Bible and I get a lot of context from both.

The amount of Western men who are turning to the Eastern Orthodox boggles the mind. The Catholics are making everyone sick, the Reformers dropped the ball and the evangelicals are slithering around on the floor. God help us.

>>23844378
I think it's because of the emphasis on mysticism.

>>23844408
Maybe for some people on /lit/, but nah. Usually, newcomers are disillusioned Protestants or Catholics, or if they are younger they want something trad, "based", and redpilled.

>>23844485
I don't know. I was raised agnostic and came to Orthodoxy because every other religion or system lacked "something". That something was Christ. For me it was the fact that Christ truly feels like the keystone to everything that got me to explore Christianity further. I think I'm not the only one, young people can also see that there's something special and unusual about the life of Jesus, and Christianity in general.

I'm not religious but Catholicism seems way more interesting to get into just looking at its literary tradition.

>>23844485
Yes, that, their imagery and the sense that they've had a slower descent into globohomo sensibilities than western institutions. Young men don't want to be associated with crying evangelicals swaying to electric guitar music with tearsin their eyes, dykes in rainbow colored vestments, or that heretic Francis who knows where his bread his buttered and seems to unleash Africa upon the West. They want strength, tradition, etc..

I don't believe converts to the EO don't actually have any real Christian fellowship outside of the internet, I doubt many actually attend Church or stay in the faith very long. I would imagine a great many will end up disillusioned and jaded and become spiritualists who talk of their "personal relationship" with God and shirk their Christian duties.

>>23844533
This post is overly cynical and obviously biased.

>>23844536
One should be biased against idolaters corrupting the minds of seekers

>>23844541
Christianity is the truth, doesn't matter how people come to it as long as they do.

>>23844565
Oh, come now...what sensuous, pragmatic nonsense. Christ is the truth, His Word is the truth. Sensuous Christians don’t feel they need to study the Word of God because they already know the will of God by their feelings. They don’t want to know God; they want to experience him. Doctrine matters, whether you like it or not.

>>23844620
>They don’t want to know God; they want to experience him.
Sounds like Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy

>>23844621
If you devote yourself to the undertaking of serious scriptural study you'll want nothing to do with either.

>>23844631
What are you, some kind of gnostic?

>>23844633
Hahah, your context skills are not the sharpest, my friend.

>>23844637
You have nothing of value to say and can only resort to stupid quips. I'm not interested in taking this further, take your nonsense to /x/

>>23844621
>Know God
>Experience God
Both of these are the same thing.

>>23844675
Theoria is not theosis

Genuine question to Catholics: what is the deal with the Pope saying all religions lead to god and banning the latin mass? Do you guys just have to go along with it or is it okay to say that this dude is preaching heresy?

>>23844640
i'm not a gnostic, you dolt. i attend an orthodox presbyterian church, but am not a member. I will likely end up presbyterian or reformed baptist once i've further developed my theology.

>>23833690
>There are several parts of the NT where people call spiritual leaders "father".
Such as?

>>23822087
Biblical study is a difficult matter. Historical, cultural, and social context is essential for understanding the message of a biblical verse because it provides the framework within which the author wrote and the audience received it, so as to help us avoid our gay modern biases and interpret the text according to its original meaning. There is nothing more rewarding, though.

>>23845202
It's not that difficult. Just read the books of the Bible. You don't need context to understand most if not all the ideas.

>>23845216
While you can certainly get a basic understanding of the Bible by simply reading it, historical context is like wearing glasses: it helps you see the full picture. Without it, you might miss important details or misunderstand the original meaning. Consider the parable of the Good Samaritan; without understanding the cultural and social divisions between Jews and Samaritans in first-century Palestine, the full impact of Jesus' mesage about loving one's neighbor might be lost..

but I agree with you that what is essential, in regards to Salvation and Christian life, is presented very clearly, thank God

>>23845216
lol