I hear this a lot from Christians to claim the legitimacy of Christianity by using prophecies found throughout the old testament alluding to Jesus. While simultaneously I've heard of many anon's suggesting that a lot of the stories were written further in time but written in such a way as to make the reader perceive that the story comes from a far older time, which would give the writer foreknowledge and be able to make "prophecies" that have already happened. I can't help but see the many possibilities of tomfuckery found throughout the old and new testament that are just taken as fact or as truth. Maybe I've been tainted a bit too much by the likes of Nietzsche and others who have a very negative view on Christianity but the arguments they put forth seem like legitimate criticisms. One thing that irritates me is when apologists will just refer to scripture to have it prove itself. Ignoring the very real possibilities that the writers just made shit up. I guess this is a sort of anti-Christian thread but I don't want it to immediately descend into shit flinging. I genuinely want to see what anon's think of the bible and its legitimacy that isn't just anon's spamming CHRIST IS KING.
>>23819974But the septuagint was written centuries before jesus?
The justifications always boil down to either christkanger retards or doing a sleight of hand by claiming a god of the philosophers is real and then equating that with yahweh
Didn't read. Christ is King. Humble yourself before your sovereign, heathen.
>>23819987Most references to a coming messiah usually is in reference to a coming military leader who could free the Jews and usher in Israel proper. The Christians than just throw in references and write to give legitimacy to Jesus.
>>23819993>steals philosophy from the Greeks>bastardizes it by mixing it with the nihilism of the Abrahamic traditions>rely entirely on stories written decades after the alleged life of Jesus by assholes who clearly have an agenda and you just have to take their word for it, or elseIt's a death cult. You're asking me to join a death cult. A bitter, resentful death cult.
>>23820008the problem with that idea is that the masoretic was edited by individuals such as aquila to eliminate as much of the prophecies related to jesus
>>23820016What prophecies? Often the prophecies brought up just seem to be Christians taking something and then taking things way out of context to justify Jesus. The prophecies found in the book of Job is a common one. It essentially just boils down to "a messiah will come" and the Christians just say "yep, they're talking about Jesus". A lot of it just seems extremely vague and open to immense interpretation.
>>23820015jesus was real it was likely a debt jubilee revolution for debt forgiveness as documented in leviticus 25 later coopted by creditors and twisted to obscure the message
>>23819974modern jerusalem has made me never trust anything out of that region ever again
>>23820028What's Jubal got to do with it
>>23820029They're mostly Italian. The modern Palestinians are much closer to the ancient peoples of Israel, genetically speaking.
Setting aside how the entire new testament was written decades after Jesus allegedly lived and could be filled with just non stop lies. The prophecies themselves can be easily construed as being self fulfilling prophecies since the writers would already know what to write since they would be the ones in control of the narrative.
>>23820035debt forgiveness and the crimes taken by the pharasiis and the cult of rome to take it over and hide it
>>23820045Didn't answer my question.
>>23820026>A lot of it just seems extremely vague and open to immense interpretation.Alright, let's used something specific then.>Matthew 24:1-34 >Jesus predicts the fall of the temple and the events surrounding it, urges his followers to flee Israel before those days come to pass>40 years after Jesus's crucifixion, Jews get the bright idea to revolt against their Roman occupiers in the name of Bar Kokhba>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kQRKhvxh34
>>23820049i talked about the concept of a jubilee not jubal
>>23820057But not wrong.
>>23820042>decide to write a bunch of things you don't believe in>get tortured to death and still keep up the facadeHaha those apostles sure were pranksters
>>23820052My rebuttal: When was the book of Matthew written? For all we know, by the time it was written, that could've either have been an obvious thing that was about to happen or that it already happened but they wrote it as if Jesus knew way beforehand. Even if Jesus alluded to something like that, the reason why apocalyptic death cults were springing up everywhere was because everyone knew the political situation in that area was sketchy at best.>thing is about to happen/has already happened>write about events in the past with foreknowledge of the future >construe it as a prophecy that has become true to gain legitimacyThat's like me writing a history book about WWII but I write it as if the book itself came from 1939 where I give prophecies as to what will happen in the war and they all come true.
>>23820068>fanatics die for the things they believe to be trueI hate this argument so much. We don't even know if the Apostles were even real, seeing as how a lot of their stories are derived from noncanonical books with like half of them sharing the exact same death.>go to kingdom to preach about Jesus>princess falls in love and the Apostle fucks her to spread the truth of Jesus>King gets mad and crucifies Apostle (spin the wheel to see if he gets crucified right side up or upside down)
>>23820072We know for a fact that the earliest writings weren't written until a couple decades after Jesus. Can you actually refute the argument or are you just gonna spam Christ is king next?
>>23820070Matthew was written decades before the fall of the temple.Ironically, christianity is older than rabbinic Judaism, because while the followers of Christ fled the region before the disaster, the Jewish religion was nearly eradicated following the destruction of the temple. It had to be stitched together from what remained of the oral tradition.
>>23820078>>fanatics die for the things they believe to be trueI thought they were lying? Get your story straight. Now you're moving goalposts. Not interested in this conversation
>>23820093The only person that said they died for something they didn't believe in was you. This is just an old straw man argument. You're telling me they couldn't make something up for the sake of power or control? What about literally every single martyr that has existed throughout all of history? If they weren't Christian than I guess they died for something that wasn't true. It's a pathetic argument.
>>23820080>The Gospel of Matthew was written c. 80–85 to convince a Jewish audience that Jesus was the expected Messiah (Christ) and greater than Moses.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_early_Christianity
>>23820108>every single martyr that has existed throughout all of historyDid they claim to be witnesses to God made flesh?
>>23820121Swap Christianity with Communism and you get a surprisingly similar chain of events.
>>23820123>Swap Christianity with Communismlol
>>23820125The point being if you weren't retarded is that men will make up bullshit and fight to the death for it. This bullshit argument of "they wouldn't die for something they didn't believe" goes against multiple examples in human history of that very thing happening. Communism being a good example.It also assumes the Apostles were real and weren't just made up. Or do you think the book of Matthew was written literally by one dude named Matthew who was one of the Apostles?
>>23819974Isn’t a known part of the Bible is that at least extremely early prophesies in the OT were just explanations for their current way of living at the time of writing? For example for Ishmael it’s written:Genesis 16:12“He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers“This is never followed up on in the Bible itself but I heard it explained as the current ishmaelites at the time were a warring people and this is supposed to be an explanation on why that isThe whole Israel thing is explanation for why they lived in Israel at their present time. Told through past prophecies.I don’t think any of this is really controversial though. I also think it might depend on the prophecy to ngl. There’s also the fact people interpret the same prophecies differently. I think current Jews interpret that same verse above to represent the current Arabs for example. But I think this interpretation is weak personally. There’s also other similar verses for other characters talking about how they act and those could also be interpreted as explanations for their descendants. Don’t remember them though ngl
Look. Basically I'm just not gonna get the doubt the Lord. I know.. UGH I know.. IM SORRY! It's just that I'm not going to is all. Hahahaha
>>23820110the late dating of matthew's gospel is based on the assumption it had to be written after the fall of the temple. then you argue that it couldn't be a prophesy because the gospel was written after the fall of the temple. this is circular reasoning. a more reasonable assumption is to believe the second century historians who all said matthew wrote his gospel before the martyrdom of paul.
