>he still writes in longhandNgmi
>>23883526u mad?
>>23883540I'm too busy writing faster than you to be maf
pros of shorthand:>significantly faster to write than either cursive or print>most people under the age of 60 can't read it, ensuring privacy>looks coolwhy haven't you switched yet, /lit/?
>>23883949books to learn shorthand?
>>23884430https://www.stenophile.com/ has a ton of links.The two most popular systems for English, Gregg and Pitman, have their own sections on the site, while systems for other languages and more obscure systems for English are on another.the /r/shorthand wiki also has a recommendations page if you need help deciding what system to learn: https://old.reddit.com/r/shorthand/wiki/recommendations
An example of Gregg shorthand (the OP is in Pitman)
>>23883949>why haven't you switched yet, /lit/?Because shorthand is only ever used by morloc biorobots to record the words of actual people on paper in real time, and never by said actual people.
>>23883949I already know Quikscript and my handwriting is bad enough that I’d get filtered by the kinds of shorthand that differentiate between thick and thin strokes
>>23885845Plenty of people used shorthand to write letters and keep journals. It wasn't just used for recording speech.
>>23885883There are a lot of systems that don't use shading. Gregg, for example, uses length instead. Teeline (the system that pretty much replaced Pitman in the UK) does neither, and is basically vastly simplified alphabet.
>>23885842Shorthand is based.
Are journalists still trained in shorthand?
>>23888230No. They use tape recorders and computers to take notes.
>>23888230It's apparently still a requirement in some countries, but whether it's actually used idk.
>>23889193>It's apparently still a requirement in some countriesBased on recent tutorial videos uploaded to YouTube, it seems to be required in many pajeet countries.
>>23890468yeah, I've also found a bunch from the Philippines.
>>23883526Why would I learn shorthand when I can just type?
>>23891789writing things by hand is fun
some French shorthand (Duployan)
>>23891767Pajeet countries, yes.
>>23893319They're more like mexicans
Latin shorthand (Tironian notes)
German shorthand (DEK).
Lol old school
The basic Gregg alphabet
>>23895506Most of them were invented in the 19th century, they're not that old.
>>23895714seems error prone and ambiguous
>>23883526I learned teeline for a while, got a couple books on it, would write shopping lists etc but I came to the conclusion it was too cringe
>>23883593what is maf short for?
>>23897407it seems that way but give it 4 or 5 years of a couple hours day and it really starts making sense
>>23897420>I came to the conclusion it was too cringewhy?
>>23897407The letters look really similar in isolation, but in writing they're actually pretty distinct.
>>23886138It doesn't need to be that fast for that purpose though. So you could use something easier to learn.
>>23883526I am glad someone finally ported the bible to the winding gypsies. Maybe they will stop breaking my light bulbs.>>23897436male ass fucker.
>>23897625>heh I'm writing stuff you normies couldn't comprehendAlso time spent learning it will never be gained back in saved handwriting time even in a society that used to write things down. Basically, reading it back eats a lot of the time. It's only for quickly writing stuff down as 2+ people are talking and then suffering through later trying to translate it back to normal text before the contexts are forgotten
I would rather carve a quill out of a turkey feather and dip it into ink and carefully write in chancery italic for the rest of my life than learn whatever this is
>>23883526Teeline is much better. Teeline defeats ai.
>>23897420Teeline is amazing!
>>23899096reading practice my manplus building Teeline as an alt culture of the net (becsuse the spybots can't read it)
>>23899096also, a lot of books don't explain Teeline is supposed to be an exploration with yourself. You are supposed to be working through cycles of creating and reading. Reading other sources is mostly to help build your own writing.the test of Teeline isn't adherence to theory as if it's rules. It's exploration of theory on your own terms, because it's an inner cycle, your own black box.
>>23899606Look, it's cool. I knew a fair amount of it and it came to me reasonably naturally, if I was taught cursive at school it probably would have came faster still. However I consider it cringe as explained
>>23899571>Teeline defeats ai.idk, if ai can recognize chinese characters with like 99% accuracy I'm pretty sure it could beat teeline.
>>23888185based on what
I 100% get the efficiency of thick/thin writing, but as an outsider I am wary of it. Doesn't one of them lack that feature?>>23885021Awesome source, thanks dude. Especially this one japanese page which shows loads of shorthands from around the globe.
>>23900982>Doesn't one of them lack that feature?yeah, a bunch, the most popular being Gregg.
Taylor shorthand (popular in the 19th century)
>>23899567That sounds awfully slow
>>23883526>He doesn't use Shavianngmi
>>23903947why not quikscript?
>>23904985Probably because he’s desperate to type it on a computerShavian has Unicode code pointsQuikscript doesn’t
>>23883949>ensuringsome nosy brat could post pages of your diary on /r/ReadThisScriptForMe, but any of these will filter out casualsyou can use pic related if you want to not only read extra slowly, but also write extra slowlywhen I read Quikscript I only read it about as fast as I can write it, which is horribly slow since I can just look at a page of normal english and get an idea of what’s going on
>>23905343yeah, but quikscript is slightly faster, which makes up for being untypable.
>>23883593That makes no sense, if you were writings faster than this anon then you'd have plenty of time at your disposal thanks to an efficient labor-saving techniqueCheckmate, shorthanders!
>>23905765what if writing faster allows you to write more, and therefore allows you to spend more time writing, leaving less time to be mad?
>>23904985I find it's particularly easy to not only write quickly but also write slowly, and by that I mean the simplicity lends itself to nice calligraphy. Which makes it competitive with the aesthetics of Arabic too.In pic: Pasta 𐑐𐑭𐑕𐑑𐑩, Beef 𐑚𐑰𐑓, Cheese 𐑗𐑰𐑟
The basic Pitman alphabet.
>>23906606How is a two-sharp-angled [i] sound simplerPic related is a similar grocery list in much worse handwriting, in Quikscript
>>23883526I love shorthand. It's like a western abugida. My grand father left several journals written in a very idiosincratic teeline. They're pretty much impossible to decipher now.
>>23883949>why haven't you switched yet, /lit/?Writing makes my hands cramp and pain, and I can type 150wpm.
It's cursive not shorthand but any anon learn the Palmer Method? Want to know what words per minute you can get up to.
>>23907412>150 wpmAre you using the typing equivalent of shorthand?
>>23906606>>23907288neat
>>23886138These people - are they in the room with us right now?
>>23907963No, they're mostly elderly or dead.
>>23906577If you could spend more time writing then you would do just that, regardless of using shorthand or not.
>>23907532The first result I found said up to 60 wpm, but it didn't have a source.
Eclectic shorthand (really complex and never really caught on).
>>23899567I acually do use a dip pen, I am thinking about buying bulk goose feathers for when the nib dies, since I think quills are now cheaper than pens.
A key to Duployan from 1897.
Orthic (based on spelling instead of pronunciation)
>>23900799kys
>>23907313>They're pretty much impossible to decipher now.Well, if you know what system they're written in you've already got a massive headstart at least.
prévost delaunay (another system for french)
Soustava Herout-Mikulík, Czech systemhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZArjiM62Lb8
Sloan-Duployan (one of the adaptations of Duployan for English). Unlike normal Duployan, it uses shading, although only to indicate the presence of r.
>>23908628Yeah but it would be like double with shorthand
There's also alphabetic shorthands, like Forkner (pic). It's basically simplified cursive with some extra symbols.
>>23905359>some nosy brat could post pages of your diary on /r/ReadThisScriptForMeJust write backwards
https://greggshorthand.github.io/The anniversary (1929) version of the Gregg manual is also available in text form on this website, along with some supplementary materials. https://greggdict.rliu.dev/Someone also made a site that lets you search the simplified (1949) and anniversary dictionaries.
Aimé-paris (french again). This one doesn't distinguish between voiced and unvoiced consonants.
Gabelsberger (german)
>>23883526I don't know what any of this is, but I am going to assume unequivocally that it is the work of pure evil.
>>23923400How could the bible be evil?
shorthand is like writing in phonetics?
>>23924424Usuaully. In addition to writing phonetically, shorthand systems have brief forms (much shorter versions of common words used to write faster). eg in Gregg a dot stands for a/an, the k letter by itself stands for can, the th letter can stand for the or there/their depending on its orientation, d stands for would etc. Longer words also got abbreviated (see https://greggshorthand.github.io/anbfs.html for examples)There are some systems that follow the spelling of words though.
You guys are like Bam Margera.
>>23892737kino
>>23924494Those letters are far too complex to write at speed.
Gurney (another early 19th century shorthand like Taylor).
Fuck efficiency. Aesthetics first.
>>23926527What don't you like about them aesthetically?
https://archive.org/details/basicprincipleso00gregThe guy who invented Gregg wrote an entire book about why other shorthand systems suck and his was the best.
Mengelkamp (English)
>>23883540hey I saw that last month
>>23928620>You must wait longer before deleting your postfor what purpose
>>23884430Why?Shorthand was for secretaries to scribble down letters/memos from their bosses It hasn't been relevant since the cassette recorder was invented
>>23928639>Why?because it's fun
Scheithauer
>>23928629so you can ruminate on your failures
Current
>>23929948Almost looks like QuikscriptThere are only so many fast-to-write hard-to-mess-up characters
Mcewan, which is basically Pitman with actual vowel letters instead of dots. Since it has letters to indicate vowels, the position of the outlines on the line instead indicates the presence/absence of r or l.
Eames' cursive.
My hands aren't long.
>>23931326That's a great reason to learn a shorthand
>>23900799Based on chicken scratch
>>23885845I use it to write the beginnings of my erotica stories when I'm out at the bar, so nobody will pry. Had a drunk guy convinced I was a CIA spy when he saw my scribbles, lol.
>>23932213Extrapolate.
>>23932220What's there to extrapolate? I basically keep a pocket notebook with me, and when I'm at the bar and am not taking to somebody, I write, because I'm constantly churning out stories about public nudity an exhibitionism and learned journalism shorthand to aid not only in writing smut in public, but for taking notes at work. I love this shit. Anyway, since covid and work-from-home, I do most of my writing in private.
>>23932213why are you writing porn in public?
>>23932226goddamnif you wait next to the river long enough they're gonna float pastthey really fuckin' do :^)
>>23932071It's genuinely easier to read than the average person's handwriting.
>>23907665Sometimes I consider learning stenography, but then I remember that dictation software exists today.
>>23933045Different point in life. Wasn't living alone at the time, my smoky bar was my oasis, where I could concentrate.
Dewey's script shorthand
>>23931303The Herman Miller chair guy?>>23932213HahI look Italian enough for some well-meaning bless-her-heart to look at my stuff and think I’m going to blow up a plane even though I’m writing from left to right instead of right to left So I’m annoyed that I didn’t get as much of a chance to write in my notebook at the airport and the flight home like I would normally>>23932226A couple questions:Do you transcribe your stuff to a computer later?How fast do you read your own stuff? I read about as fast as I write, which is crazy slow
>>23935142>The Herman Miller chair guy?No, the shorthand guy.He also invented a geometric shorthand (pic related).
>>23935142>Do you transcribe your stuff to a computer later?Why yes. I sell on Amazon. I typically don't write my stories by hand for sake of speed, but in these cases I at least write the beginning that way, transcribe that when I get home and then keep going. >How fast do you read your own stuff? I read about as fast as I write, which is crazy slowAbout as long as it takes me to write them. I have a process that's basically>rush through the raw text without any visible spell check to just adjust glaring issues and butterfinger typos, and address notes and rewrite parts>run it through a normal spell-check after that and apply formatting>run it through free Grammarly just to weed out incorrect usages and whatnot>then send it to my kindle and read it in earnest, as a reader, usually takes about 30 mins to an hour, making notes for correctionsThen I apply my final corrections and publish.
>>23935142>>23935888Oh, and if you meant how fast do I read my own shorthand: pretty slow. It takes me a minute to decipher it, especially when my writing gets sloppy.
>>23935894Ok, that makes me feel way less aloneI’m around people who can read this kind of thing as fast as they can read normal English and I wonder if I’m the filthiest of filthy casuals
>>23936338Yeah, don't sweat it. I taught myself during downtime at my job when it wasn't as busy as now, and it's not something I use everyday, so of course I'm going to be like a Kindergartener still getting used to the alphabet.
Teeline.
>>23937280DenseI half expect to see “like a dirigible” written as an annotation
Thomas Natural.
Lindsley's Takigrafy
>>23933818>dictation softwarelike speech to text? stenography is probably faster if you're writing.
Shelton
>>23939518I've considered learning it to draft my stories in record time but don't know how hard it is. People learn it for their career, after all.
Arends
>>23939963There's plenty of people who learn it as a hobby, so it's probably not that hard for personal use.
>>23942008I wonder if they make digital sternogropher keyboards that hook up to your computer. I'm sure they do.
>>23942052https://stenokeyboards.com/Apparently they do.
>>23942187Sick. Time to learn.
All capsBlock letters Misspellings and alternative spellings following intuition and local accent
it looks cool but that's about it
>>23943420>Misspellings and alternative spellings following intuition and local accentthat sounds like it would create a lot of confusion.
>>23924541Fun fact about duployan: it's the only shorthand that's in unicode.
>>23924456Also, common words can be written together as a single outline.
>>23944485YesShavian and Quikscript both have a standard spelling/accent but the guy who made it isn’t dogmatic about it
>>23920569Some other sites dedicated to shorthand systems:https://www.long-live-pitmans-shorthand.org.uk/ - about Pitman.https://orthic.shorthand.fun/ - about orthichttps://jacmoe.github.io/brandt/ - about the Brandt adaptation of Duployan for English.https://teeline.online/ - for teeline
>>23943632>that's about itThink about all the time you could save.
>>23897436Muncher Anal Faggot
>>23900799on a true story
does shorthand really "translate back" consistently to what was originally said? or is it mostly imagination and wishful thinking? like if i compared it with a tape recording what would be the accuracy? 80% real?
>>23948689>does shorthand really "translate back" consistently to what was originally said? Yeah. They held competitions where someone would dictate at a certain WPM (usually between 200-280), while shorthand writers would write it down. Afterwards, they'd transcribe what they wrote down, and whoever had the most accurate transcription would win. Usually the winners would only have like one or two errors.https://greggshorthand.github.io/repnotb3.htmlhas an annotated example from one.
Bishop's Exact Phonography.Interestingly, vowels and consonants are written with the same strokes. To distinguish them, you either use a small, circular vowel marker before the stroke (for medial and final vowels), or, if the vowel is the first sound, by writing the first stroke above the line.
>>23948488What story though?
>>23930062it's interesting how distinct they can feel in spite of that limitation.
Malone's script phonography. The creator actually sued Gregg (whom he once employed) for copyright infringement due to how similar they were, although most of the strokes had different values in Gregg. Malone also use position-writing and shading, unlike Gregg.
>>23883526neat, didnt know about this, but makes sense.
>>23939963>People learn it for their careerNot anymore. With technology these days it's a dead career choice.t. used to work at a court reporting company and all the stenographers were like 60+
>>23952521Yeah I gotta wonder what's the point if you can just audio record a trial anyway. Or a speech-to-text program, but they would make lots of mistakes.
>>23952825>audio recordYou still need a transcript.>speech-to-textLike you said, there are errors, so why not just have a human in the room doing it in real time that will probably be more accurate.
>>23883526I tried learning shorthand.Had fun learning words like fagt, nigr, and raisism. Very aesthetic, very demure.But ultimately, I see little use for it in daily life.If I were to write a journal or a manifesto for whatever reason, I'd want others to be able to read it after I die. Writing it in shorthand just drastically reduces possible interest and alienates audiences.I take lecture notes faster on my laptop, if I take any at all, and to learn shorthand well and fast enough for it to really matter would take literal years. By that time, I'm hoping I'll be out of university.The only way I can see it becoming useful in my life is if I become a journalist (fuck that) or a psychiatrist that needs to quickly write down what their patient is saying.Courtroom scribes just use steno.It truly is a shame, but shorthand is likely going to become a dead art form, kept on life support by a bunch of cult-like, dedicated autists.
Aristography.In this one, vowels are represented by straight lines, and consonants by curves, circles, and hooks.
>>23954837A similar system by George Walpole. Unlike most shorthands, he doesn't pair similar sounds (eg voiced unvoiced pairs) together with similar synbols.
>>23907665This is basically the problem with learning shorthand. You can pick up one of these and learn it in a few months and blow out whatever jotting you can do.
>>23956124>few monthsProbably more than that. Iirc stenography classes have a really high failure/dropout rate.
>>23935016Dewey also made an adaptation of Takigrafy, called personal shorthand, in which he recommends holding the pen/pencil like this.
>>23930959https://archive.org/details/sim_todays-secretary_1920-03_22_7/page/292/mode/2upGregg's magazine also ran an article detailing every time McEwan went bankrupt from his various shorthand businesses.
I remember coming across my grandfather's notes from college when he was getting an engineering degree. I still have them somewhere, but as a teenager trying to decipher them at the time I was amazed it was even english. He was able to take terms for complicated engineering techniques and systems that were well over 12 characters long and reduce them to about 3 symbols. It was completely undecipherable but he was a great engineer with filed patents in petrochemicals.
Noory's Simplex
>>23952825Neural networks will have the mistakes solved in a year or two either way, dead job.
>>23957756
>>23960856AI isn't magic, there will always be some mistakes.
>>23953943I feel like with the transcript thing, that could be solved by dividing people into audio booths and time-stamping everything. Even then I don't think the courtroom application is going to come anytime soon if there's no automatic punctuating. How can you even do something like that? If courtrooms dictated things around like they were using Google Voice Typing, that would blow my mind.
Pitman, Gregg or Orthic?
>>23907665what if we combined stenography and shorthand
What is the most aesthetic English shorthand?
>>23954837I'd like to learn the Artistography system. The only resource I can seem to find on it is the book "Key to Artistography" by Isaac S. Dement. Anyone have advice on this?
>>23962277stenophile.com/shorthand has links to the actual textbook under the Dement section (just ctrl-f aristography).
>>23962254Gregg
>>23962220Whatever looks nicest to you I guess. All three are good shorthands with lots of resources to learn from.
>>23928639to feel special, the fuck else does anyone do irrelevant shit like this?
>>23928639>>23964890My team used to have office meetings where everybody announced what they're working on so we could sort priorities. When I was made to lead the meeting last-minute, my newly-learned shorthand came in useful.
>>23962224How? Stenography is way faster, there's a reason it replaced shorthand almost entirely outside of third world countries.
>>23886138Writing it in a post card kind of makes sense because of the privacy factor and fitting more stuff in. It's still impractical if you're not trying to write in code and/or have an indefinite amount of paper.
>>23939518Pretty sure that modern speech-to-text software combined with a good microphone should catch everything with decent accuracy unless you have a severe speech deficit or you're the Micro Machines guy
Stolze-Schrey (dettman's English adaptation)
>>23965631>still impracticalOnce you know all the rules it's not that much harder than writing normally.
Evans
>>23968631How is making a bunch of dots fast?
>>23968767the dots aren't part of the shorthand, they're just to represent the line of writing.lots of systems use writing above or below/through the line to represent things.
>>23968778But is the writer expected to put those dots in himself? Or are they overlaid by some kind of explainer guy long after the fact?
>>23968782Neither. In practice, the writer would just use lined paper.
>>23883526why would you need that autistic meme shit if you can write at over 100wpm with a computer keyboard easily? retardsyou write on stone tablets too?
>>23968954>you write on stone tablets too?No, but that sounds like it might be fun
>>23968954Can you type 100 WPM one-handed, standing up?
>>23883526When was the last /lit/ thread that lasted a month?
>>23970528clg's done it a couple times i think
>>23970528It's just one autist who keeps bumping his own thread.
>>23910371If you want to know just what makes it complex, it has:Position writing (five positions to indicate what sound follows the first stroke)Shading (including partial shading)variable size (which indicates additional letters added)Some letters have multiple formsit's also orthographic instead of phonetic.
>>23972111Sounds like the Ithkuil of shorthands
>>23972166yeah, it's pretty crazy.
>>23926220The basic Gurney alphabet.
>>23972928How in the everloving fuck is someone supposed to distinguish between written upwards and written downwards?
>>23973361You usually avoid those letters, except when you're initialing.
>>23973361Most of the time, letters connect to each other, so it would be obvious which is which by where the next letter starts. The vowel letters can only occur at the beginning of words as well, so anywhere else it would have to be an s.
>>23965638Is speech to text really that good?
Byrom's (popular in the 18th century).
>>23885842The same text in Pitman (ends at the > on the right side of the Gregg version).
>>23939003Lindsley was also a spelling reformer, and published a magazine in his altered spelling.
>>23883526What if I just learn to write in Chinese cursive? Surely Classical Chinese in cursive is about comparable in density to English in shorthand, since it's one of the most concise languages on Earth.
I write in bastardized Forkner that I doubt there's anyone in the world but me can read.It's nice and great for taking notes or writing in my journal, but one thing people don't tell you is it fucks up your normal writing.It took me about as long to learn it as it did to learn to write again in standard script without using shorthand, and I still have to watch myself because I can unintentionally swap scripts mid sentence.
>>23977811that would require learning thousands of characters, as well as an entirely new language. Most English shorthands only have as many symbols as there are sounds in English (~40), and you already know English so there's no language barrier.
>>23977870I already know Classical Chinese, though not amazingly well, I'd just have to learn cursive and keep reading to improve my CC.
>>23973948>>23973366Ah, point
>>23977873i think shorthand would probably be faster. How many strokes do you think the average cursive chinese character has? Chinese would probably take up less space though.
Miles, which was a different attempt at Pitman with connected vowels.
>>23977826post a sample
>>23922320I wonder why cursive style systems never really caught on in the anglosphere?
