>he still writes in longhandNgmi
>>23883526u mad?
>>23883540I'm too busy writing faster than you to be maf
pros of shorthand:>significantly faster to write than either cursive or print>most people under the age of 60 can't read it, ensuring privacy>looks coolwhy haven't you switched yet, /lit/?
>>23883949books to learn shorthand?
>>23884430https://www.stenophile.com/ has a ton of links.The two most popular systems for English, Gregg and Pitman, have their own sections on the site, while systems for other languages and more obscure systems for English are on another.the /r/shorthand wiki also has a recommendations page if you need help deciding what system to learn: https://old.reddit.com/r/shorthand/wiki/recommendations
An example of Gregg shorthand (the OP is in Pitman)
>>23883949>why haven't you switched yet, /lit/?Because shorthand is only ever used by morloc biorobots to record the words of actual people on paper in real time, and never by said actual people.
>>23883949I already know Quikscript and my handwriting is bad enough that I’d get filtered by the kinds of shorthand that differentiate between thick and thin strokes
>>23885845Plenty of people used shorthand to write letters and keep journals. It wasn't just used for recording speech.
>>23885883There are a lot of systems that don't use shading. Gregg, for example, uses length instead. Teeline (the system that pretty much replaced Pitman in the UK) does neither, and is basically vastly simplified alphabet.
>>23885842Shorthand is based.
Are journalists still trained in shorthand?
>>23888230No. They use tape recorders and computers to take notes.
>>23888230It's apparently still a requirement in some countries, but whether it's actually used idk.
>>23889193>It's apparently still a requirement in some countriesBased on recent tutorial videos uploaded to YouTube, it seems to be required in many pajeet countries.
>>23890468yeah, I've also found a bunch from the Philippines.
>>23883526Why would I learn shorthand when I can just type?
>>23891789writing things by hand is fun
some French shorthand (Duployan)
>>23891767Pajeet countries, yes.
>>23893319They're more like mexicans
Latin shorthand (Tironian notes)
German shorthand (DEK).
Lol old school
The basic Gregg alphabet
>>23895506Most of them were invented in the 19th century, they're not that old.
>>23895714seems error prone and ambiguous
>>23883526I learned teeline for a while, got a couple books on it, would write shopping lists etc but I came to the conclusion it was too cringe
>>23883593what is maf short for?
>>23897407it seems that way but give it 4 or 5 years of a couple hours day and it really starts making sense
>>23897420>I came to the conclusion it was too cringewhy?
>>23897407The letters look really similar in isolation, but in writing they're actually pretty distinct.
>>23886138It doesn't need to be that fast for that purpose though. So you could use something easier to learn.
>>23883526I am glad someone finally ported the bible to the winding gypsies. Maybe they will stop breaking my light bulbs.>>23897436male ass fucker.
>>23897625>heh I'm writing stuff you normies couldn't comprehendAlso time spent learning it will never be gained back in saved handwriting time even in a society that used to write things down. Basically, reading it back eats a lot of the time. It's only for quickly writing stuff down as 2+ people are talking and then suffering through later trying to translate it back to normal text before the contexts are forgotten
I would rather carve a quill out of a turkey feather and dip it into ink and carefully write in chancery italic for the rest of my life than learn whatever this is
>>23883526Teeline is much better. Teeline defeats ai.
>>23897420Teeline is amazing!
>>23899096reading practice my manplus building Teeline as an alt culture of the net (becsuse the spybots can't read it)
>>23899096also, a lot of books don't explain Teeline is supposed to be an exploration with yourself. You are supposed to be working through cycles of creating and reading. Reading other sources is mostly to help build your own writing.the test of Teeline isn't adherence to theory as if it's rules. It's exploration of theory on your own terms, because it's an inner cycle, your own black box.
>>23899606Look, it's cool. I knew a fair amount of it and it came to me reasonably naturally, if I was taught cursive at school it probably would have came faster still. However I consider it cringe as explained
>>23899571>Teeline defeats ai.idk, if ai can recognize chinese characters with like 99% accuracy I'm pretty sure it could beat teeline.
>>23888185based on what
I 100% get the efficiency of thick/thin writing, but as an outsider I am wary of it. Doesn't one of them lack that feature?>>23885021Awesome source, thanks dude. Especially this one japanese page which shows loads of shorthands from around the globe.
>>23900982>Doesn't one of them lack that feature?yeah, a bunch, the most popular being Gregg.
Taylor shorthand (popular in the 19th century)
>>23899567That sounds awfully slow
>>23883526>He doesn't use Shavianngmi
>>23903947why not quikscript?
>>23904985Probably because he’s desperate to type it on a computerShavian has Unicode code pointsQuikscript doesn’t
>>23883949>ensuringsome nosy brat could post pages of your diary on /r/ReadThisScriptForMe, but any of these will filter out casualsyou can use pic related if you want to not only read extra slowly, but also write extra slowlywhen I read Quikscript I only read it about as fast as I can write it, which is horribly slow since I can just look at a page of normal english and get an idea of what’s going on
>>23905343yeah, but quikscript is slightly faster, which makes up for being untypable.
>>23883593That makes no sense, if you were writings faster than this anon then you'd have plenty of time at your disposal thanks to an efficient labor-saving techniqueCheckmate, shorthanders!
>>23905765what if writing faster allows you to write more, and therefore allows you to spend more time writing, leaving less time to be mad?
>>23904985I find it's particularly easy to not only write quickly but also write slowly, and by that I mean the simplicity lends itself to nice calligraphy. Which makes it competitive with the aesthetics of Arabic too.In pic: Pasta 𐑐𐑭𐑕𐑑𐑩, Beef 𐑚𐑰𐑓, Cheese 𐑗𐑰𐑟
The basic Pitman alphabet.
>>23906606How is a two-sharp-angled [i] sound simplerPic related is a similar grocery list in much worse handwriting, in Quikscript
>>23883526I love shorthand. It's like a western abugida. My grand father left several journals written in a very idiosincratic teeline. They're pretty much impossible to decipher now.
>>23883949>why haven't you switched yet, /lit/?Writing makes my hands cramp and pain, and I can type 150wpm.
It's cursive not shorthand but any anon learn the Palmer Method? Want to know what words per minute you can get up to.
>>23907412>150 wpmAre you using the typing equivalent of shorthand?
>>23906606>>23907288neat
>>23886138These people - are they in the room with us right now?
>>23907963No, they're mostly elderly or dead.
>>23906577If you could spend more time writing then you would do just that, regardless of using shorthand or not.
>>23907532The first result I found said up to 60 wpm, but it didn't have a source.
Eclectic shorthand (really complex and never really caught on).
>>23899567I acually do use a dip pen, I am thinking about buying bulk goose feathers for when the nib dies, since I think quills are now cheaper than pens.
A key to Duployan from 1897.
Orthic (based on spelling instead of pronunciation)
>>23900799kys
>>23907313>They're pretty much impossible to decipher now.Well, if you know what system they're written in you've already got a massive headstart at least.
prévost delaunay (another system for french)
Soustava Herout-Mikulík, Czech systemhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZArjiM62Lb8
Sloan-Duployan (one of the adaptations of Duployan for English). Unlike normal Duployan, it uses shading, although only to indicate the presence of r.
>>23908628Yeah but it would be like double with shorthand
There's also alphabetic shorthands, like Forkner (pic). It's basically simplified cursive with some extra symbols.
>>23905359>some nosy brat could post pages of your diary on /r/ReadThisScriptForMeJust write backwards
https://greggshorthand.github.io/The anniversary (1929) version of the Gregg manual is also available in text form on this website, along with some supplementary materials. https://greggdict.rliu.dev/Someone also made a site that lets you search the simplified (1949) and anniversary dictionaries.
Aimé-paris (french again). This one doesn't distinguish between voiced and unvoiced consonants.
Gabelsberger (german)
>>23883526I don't know what any of this is, but I am going to assume unequivocally that it is the work of pure evil.
>>23923400How could the bible be evil?
shorthand is like writing in phonetics?
>>23924424Usuaully. In addition to writing phonetically, shorthand systems have brief forms (much shorter versions of common words used to write faster). eg in Gregg a dot stands for a/an, the k letter by itself stands for can, the th letter can stand for the or there/their depending on its orientation, d stands for would etc. Longer words also got abbreviated (see https://greggshorthand.github.io/anbfs.html for examples)There are some systems that follow the spelling of words though.
You guys are like Bam Margera.
>>23892737kino
>>23924494Those letters are far too complex to write at speed.
Gurney (another early 19th century shorthand like Taylor).
Fuck efficiency. Aesthetics first.
>>23926527What don't you like about them aesthetically?
https://archive.org/details/basicprincipleso00gregThe guy who invented Gregg wrote an entire book about why other shorthand systems suck and his was the best.
Mengelkamp (English)
>>23883540hey I saw that last month
>>23928620>You must wait longer before deleting your postfor what purpose
>>23884430Why?Shorthand was for secretaries to scribble down letters/memos from their bosses It hasn't been relevant since the cassette recorder was invented
>>23928639>Why?because it's fun
Scheithauer
>>23928629so you can ruminate on your failures
Current
>>23929948Almost looks like QuikscriptThere are only so many fast-to-write hard-to-mess-up characters
Mcewan, which is basically Pitman with actual vowel letters instead of dots. Since it has letters to indicate vowels, the position of the outlines on the line instead indicates the presence/absence of r or l.
Eames' cursive.
My hands aren't long.
>>23931326That's a great reason to learn a shorthand
>>23900799Based on chicken scratch
>>23885845I use it to write the beginnings of my erotica stories when I'm out at the bar, so nobody will pry. Had a drunk guy convinced I was a CIA spy when he saw my scribbles, lol.
>>23932213Extrapolate.
>>23932220What's there to extrapolate? I basically keep a pocket notebook with me, and when I'm at the bar and am not taking to somebody, I write, because I'm constantly churning out stories about public nudity an exhibitionism and learned journalism shorthand to aid not only in writing smut in public, but for taking notes at work. I love this shit. Anyway, since covid and work-from-home, I do most of my writing in private.
>>23932213why are you writing porn in public?
>>23932226goddamnif you wait next to the river long enough they're gonna float pastthey really fuckin' do :^)
>>23932071It's genuinely easier to read than the average person's handwriting.
>>23907665Sometimes I consider learning stenography, but then I remember that dictation software exists today.
>>23933045Different point in life. Wasn't living alone at the time, my smoky bar was my oasis, where I could concentrate.
Dewey's script shorthand
>>23931303The Herman Miller chair guy?>>23932213HahI look Italian enough for some well-meaning bless-her-heart to look at my stuff and think I’m going to blow up a plane even though I’m writing from left to right instead of right to left So I’m annoyed that I didn’t get as much of a chance to write in my notebook at the airport and the flight home like I would normally>>23932226A couple questions:Do you transcribe your stuff to a computer later?How fast do you read your own stuff? I read about as fast as I write, which is crazy slow
>>23935142>The Herman Miller chair guy?No, the shorthand guy.He also invented a geometric shorthand (pic related).
>>23935142>Do you transcribe your stuff to a computer later?Why yes. I sell on Amazon. I typically don't write my stories by hand for sake of speed, but in these cases I at least write the beginning that way, transcribe that when I get home and then keep going. >How fast do you read your own stuff? I read about as fast as I write, which is crazy slowAbout as long as it takes me to write them. I have a process that's basically>rush through the raw text without any visible spell check to just adjust glaring issues and butterfinger typos, and address notes and rewrite parts>run it through a normal spell-check after that and apply formatting>run it through free Grammarly just to weed out incorrect usages and whatnot>then send it to my kindle and read it in earnest, as a reader, usually takes about 30 mins to an hour, making notes for correctionsThen I apply my final corrections and publish.
>>23935142>>23935888Oh, and if you meant how fast do I read my own shorthand: pretty slow. It takes me a minute to decipher it, especially when my writing gets sloppy.
>>23935894Ok, that makes me feel way less aloneI’m around people who can read this kind of thing as fast as they can read normal English and I wonder if I’m the filthiest of filthy casuals
>>23936338Yeah, don't sweat it. I taught myself during downtime at my job when it wasn't as busy as now, and it's not something I use everyday, so of course I'm going to be like a Kindergartener still getting used to the alphabet.
Teeline.
>>23937280DenseI half expect to see “like a dirigible” written as an annotation
Thomas Natural.
Lindsley's Takigrafy
>>23933818>dictation softwarelike speech to text? stenography is probably faster if you're writing.
Shelton
>>23939518I've considered learning it to draft my stories in record time but don't know how hard it is. People learn it for their career, after all.
Arends
>>23939963There's plenty of people who learn it as a hobby, so it's probably not that hard for personal use.
>>23942008I wonder if they make digital sternogropher keyboards that hook up to your computer. I'm sure they do.
>>23942052https://stenokeyboards.com/Apparently they do.
>>23942187Sick. Time to learn.
All capsBlock letters Misspellings and alternative spellings following intuition and local accent
it looks cool but that's about it
>>23943420>Misspellings and alternative spellings following intuition and local accentthat sounds like it would create a lot of confusion.
>>23924541Fun fact about duployan: it's the only shorthand that's in unicode.
>>23924456Also, common words can be written together as a single outline.
>>23944485YesShavian and Quikscript both have a standard spelling/accent but the guy who made it isn’t dogmatic about it
>>23920569Some other sites dedicated to shorthand systems:https://www.long-live-pitmans-shorthand.org.uk/ - about Pitman.https://orthic.shorthand.fun/ - about orthichttps://jacmoe.github.io/brandt/ - about the Brandt adaptation of Duployan for English.https://teeline.online/ - for teeline
>>23943632>that's about itThink about all the time you could save.
>>23897436Muncher Anal Faggot
>>23900799on a true story
does shorthand really "translate back" consistently to what was originally said? or is it mostly imagination and wishful thinking? like if i compared it with a tape recording what would be the accuracy? 80% real?
>>23948689>does shorthand really "translate back" consistently to what was originally said? Yeah. They held competitions where someone would dictate at a certain WPM (usually between 200-280), while shorthand writers would write it down. Afterwards, they'd transcribe what they wrote down, and whoever had the most accurate transcription would win. Usually the winners would only have like one or two errors.https://greggshorthand.github.io/repnotb3.htmlhas an annotated example from one.
Bishop's Exact Phonography.Interestingly, vowels and consonants are written with the same strokes. To distinguish them, you either use a small, circular vowel marker before the stroke (for medial and final vowels), or, if the vowel is the first sound, by writing the first stroke above the line.
>>23948488What story though?
>>23930062it's interesting how distinct they can feel in spite of that limitation.
Malone's script phonography. The creator actually sued Gregg (whom he once employed) for copyright infringement due to how similar they were, although most of the strokes had different values in Gregg. Malone also use position-writing and shading, unlike Gregg.
>>23883526neat, didnt know about this, but makes sense.
>>23939963>People learn it for their careerNot anymore. With technology these days it's a dead career choice.t. used to work at a court reporting company and all the stenographers were like 60+
>>23952521Yeah I gotta wonder what's the point if you can just audio record a trial anyway. Or a speech-to-text program, but they would make lots of mistakes.
>>23952825>audio recordYou still need a transcript.>speech-to-textLike you said, there are errors, so why not just have a human in the room doing it in real time that will probably be more accurate.
>>23883526I tried learning shorthand.Had fun learning words like fagt, nigr, and raisism. Very aesthetic, very demure.But ultimately, I see little use for it in daily life.If I were to write a journal or a manifesto for whatever reason, I'd want others to be able to read it after I die. Writing it in shorthand just drastically reduces possible interest and alienates audiences.I take lecture notes faster on my laptop, if I take any at all, and to learn shorthand well and fast enough for it to really matter would take literal years. By that time, I'm hoping I'll be out of university.The only way I can see it becoming useful in my life is if I become a journalist (fuck that) or a psychiatrist that needs to quickly write down what their patient is saying.Courtroom scribes just use steno.It truly is a shame, but shorthand is likely going to become a dead art form, kept on life support by a bunch of cult-like, dedicated autists.
Aristography.In this one, vowels are represented by straight lines, and consonants by curves, circles, and hooks.
>>23954837A similar system by George Walpole. Unlike most shorthands, he doesn't pair similar sounds (eg voiced unvoiced pairs) together with similar synbols.
>>23907665This is basically the problem with learning shorthand. You can pick up one of these and learn it in a few months and blow out whatever jotting you can do.
>>23956124>few monthsProbably more than that. Iirc stenography classes have a really high failure/dropout rate.
>>23935016Dewey also made an adaptation of Takigrafy, called personal shorthand, in which he recommends holding the pen/pencil like this.
>>23930959https://archive.org/details/sim_todays-secretary_1920-03_22_7/page/292/mode/2upGregg's magazine also ran an article detailing every time McEwan went bankrupt from his various shorthand businesses.
I remember coming across my grandfather's notes from college when he was getting an engineering degree. I still have them somewhere, but as a teenager trying to decipher them at the time I was amazed it was even english. He was able to take terms for complicated engineering techniques and systems that were well over 12 characters long and reduce them to about 3 symbols. It was completely undecipherable but he was a great engineer with filed patents in petrochemicals.
Noory's Simplex
>>23952825Neural networks will have the mistakes solved in a year or two either way, dead job.
>>23957756
>>23960856AI isn't magic, there will always be some mistakes.
>>23953943I feel like with the transcript thing, that could be solved by dividing people into audio booths and time-stamping everything. Even then I don't think the courtroom application is going to come anytime soon if there's no automatic punctuating. How can you even do something like that? If courtrooms dictated things around like they were using Google Voice Typing, that would blow my mind.
Pitman, Gregg or Orthic?
>>23907665what if we combined stenography and shorthand
What is the most aesthetic English shorthand?
>>23954837I'd like to learn the Artistography system. The only resource I can seem to find on it is the book "Key to Artistography" by Isaac S. Dement. Anyone have advice on this?
>>23962277stenophile.com/shorthand has links to the actual textbook under the Dement section (just ctrl-f aristography).
>>23962254Gregg
>>23962220Whatever looks nicest to you I guess. All three are good shorthands with lots of resources to learn from.
>>23928639to feel special, the fuck else does anyone do irrelevant shit like this?
>>23928639>>23964890My team used to have office meetings where everybody announced what they're working on so we could sort priorities. When I was made to lead the meeting last-minute, my newly-learned shorthand came in useful.
>>23962224How? Stenography is way faster, there's a reason it replaced shorthand almost entirely outside of third world countries.
>>23886138Writing it in a post card kind of makes sense because of the privacy factor and fitting more stuff in. It's still impractical if you're not trying to write in code and/or have an indefinite amount of paper.
>>23939518Pretty sure that modern speech-to-text software combined with a good microphone should catch everything with decent accuracy unless you have a severe speech deficit or you're the Micro Machines guy
Stolze-Schrey (dettman's English adaptation)
>>23965631>still impracticalOnce you know all the rules it's not that much harder than writing normally.
Evans
>>23968631How is making a bunch of dots fast?
>>23968767the dots aren't part of the shorthand, they're just to represent the line of writing.lots of systems use writing above or below/through the line to represent things.
>>23968778But is the writer expected to put those dots in himself? Or are they overlaid by some kind of explainer guy long after the fact?
>>23968782Neither. In practice, the writer would just use lined paper.
>>23883526why would you need that autistic meme shit if you can write at over 100wpm with a computer keyboard easily? retardsyou write on stone tablets too?
>>23968954>you write on stone tablets too?No, but that sounds like it might be fun
>>23968954Can you type 100 WPM one-handed, standing up?
>>23883526When was the last /lit/ thread that lasted a month?
>>23970528clg's done it a couple times i think
>>23970528It's just one autist who keeps bumping his own thread.
>>23910371If you want to know just what makes it complex, it has:Position writing (five positions to indicate what sound follows the first stroke)Shading (including partial shading)variable size (which indicates additional letters added)Some letters have multiple formsit's also orthographic instead of phonetic.
>>23972111Sounds like the Ithkuil of shorthands
>>23972166yeah, it's pretty crazy.
>>23926220The basic Gurney alphabet.
>>23972928How in the everloving fuck is someone supposed to distinguish between written upwards and written downwards?
>>23973361You usually avoid those letters, except when you're initialing.
>>23973361Most of the time, letters connect to each other, so it would be obvious which is which by where the next letter starts. The vowel letters can only occur at the beginning of words as well, so anywhere else it would have to be an s.
>>23965638Is speech to text really that good?
Byrom's (popular in the 18th century).
>>23885842The same text in Pitman (ends at the > on the right side of the Gregg version).
>>23939003Lindsley was also a spelling reformer, and published a magazine in his altered spelling.
>>23883526What if I just learn to write in Chinese cursive? Surely Classical Chinese in cursive is about comparable in density to English in shorthand, since it's one of the most concise languages on Earth.
I write in bastardized Forkner that I doubt there's anyone in the world but me can read.It's nice and great for taking notes or writing in my journal, but one thing people don't tell you is it fucks up your normal writing.It took me about as long to learn it as it did to learn to write again in standard script without using shorthand, and I still have to watch myself because I can unintentionally swap scripts mid sentence.
>>23977811that would require learning thousands of characters, as well as an entirely new language. Most English shorthands only have as many symbols as there are sounds in English (~40), and you already know English so there's no language barrier.
>>23977870I already know Classical Chinese, though not amazingly well, I'd just have to learn cursive and keep reading to improve my CC.
>>23973948>>23973366Ah, point
>>23977873i think shorthand would probably be faster. How many strokes do you think the average cursive chinese character has? Chinese would probably take up less space though.
Miles, which was a different attempt at Pitman with connected vowels.
>>23977826post a sample
>>23922320I wonder why cursive style systems never really caught on in the anglosphere?
>>23981846https://archive.org/details/brandt-latin/mode/2uplearn to write latin in shorthand.
Grafoni
>>23980231Complete with random script switching and equations. These are notes taken during class, so there's often pauses between lines or paragraphs. When I write without interruption, it's typically all in one script (the intended one). For my eyes only it's almost always shorthand, but if someone else might look in standard script.Occasionally I make mistakes in my standard script and need to try to fix them, typically failing to cross my f's and t's; or just leaving out parts of words, such as writing only t instead of that. I also mix up s and c when the latter is making a soft sound, such as in 'facade' in standard script or 'city' in shorthand.
a famous quote in gregg (excuse the mouse-writing).
>>23899567Refreshingly based.
>>23912795Asked ChatGPT to decipher it.. the stupid bot couldn't.
Why partake in learning this devilish scribble when voice recorders exist?
>>23984752shorthand chads win again
>>23984756Because it's cooler than just recording something.
>>23984756Voice recorders are more difficult to go through to get the information back. With shorthand you can much more quickly find something in your notes than with recorded audio, unless you mark the audio--in which case it becomes slower. While reading shorthand is slower than standard script or listening to a recording, it's still significantly faster to flip through pages and scan for keywords than to scroll through audio, since audio must be rather slow to be sensical whereas you can scan through entire pages in a second if you're just looking for a specific name or the like. Also, if privacy or recording laws are a concern, shorthand wins out. Keep in mind someone proficient in shorthand using one of the better ones can accurately transcribe speech word for word, so no accuracy is lost. Even someone who's using a less abbreviated shorthand can typically follow speech speed without issue if they paraphrase instead of quote. It's not just a little bit faster, it's anywhere from three to ten times as fast as standard script. In fact, if you're good at shorthand, it's reasonable you can write more quickly than you can speak. Plenty of typists can do this as well, although typing of course has much stricter limitations in where and when you can do it.
On its way in the mail.What am I in for?
>>23986075One of the better textbooks for Gregg from what I've heard.
>>23935016the basic alphabet of Dewey's script shorthand
>>23981846NiceHow fast can you read Shavian, though?
>>23907256Pitman also uses a combination of circles, loops and hooks to indicate things like consonant clusters and common sounds (this isn't even all of them).
>>23986075Frustration.
>>23986692As slow as a small child reading a children's book reads. Which is to say, quite slow but not so slow it ruins the ability to go back and read notes. I can get into a rhythm and start to pick up whole words but still nothing like sightreading English.
>>23883526take the russian medical community writing pill.
>>23988711As simplified as it can be, shorthand is at least still legible.
>>23883526No fucking way this thread is still up
>>23987464It literally says simplified on the cover, it can't be that hard.
>>23984064Neat. It's always cool to see shorthand in actual use.
>>23978571Depends on how cursive it is, and classical chinese can be very information-dense.
Pernin (another adaptation of Duployan to English).
>>23988416How fast do you write it?
Swiftograph
>>23989009OP's just continuously necrobumping his own thread.
>>23993771>>23991522I hate these 'samples' since it's so heavily prepared and perfect. I'd rather see what it actually looks like in use.
>>23993855Yeah, real shorthand can look pretty different from textbook shorthand.https://greggshorthand.github.io/repnotb1.html
>>23883949I prefer to make my handwriting take longer
>>23993911another example (from >>23948713 )>>23993913So you're into calligraphy?
>>23990951I wonder if the density is enough to make up for the complexity of the characters.
>>23994556I'm into joined abugida scripts with diacritics
>>23883526>he still writesNGMI
>>23926220quickly written Gurney.
>>23996254>being on /lit/ and not writing
>>23995931Well, cursive often reduces that significantly.
>>23997584I can't speak for other languages, but cursive shouldn't change your size or speed significantly over a traditional 'mixed' script in English. If you write grade-school style it may, but few people do.
>>23997692I know I can handwrite faster in English in cursive than print. But also Chinese cursive often involves significantly simplified character forms. In fact many simplified characters are essentially cursive forms re-regularized into regular script brushstrokes.
>>23997695Your handwriting is probably faster in cursive, but solely because of practice. Studies have shown there's not really any difference in speed, except for mixing which is significantly faster (using some printed and some cursive glyphs). Legibility is consistently worse for cursive.But like I said, for Chinese I have no idea. If the symbols are significantly simpler I imagine the reduction in strokes would be meaningful.
>>23997773I'm surprised at that, how could joining letters together not be faster than not joining them together? (And I spent most of my life writing print, I only switched to cursive in the past few years, so I have plenty of practice.)
I was learning Gregg shorthand for a little while then I realized I had no one to write anything to.
>>23997892Because joining letters wasn't done for speed, but because of quills. Some letters are just longer/slower in cursive, and due to the need to keep things connected it can be slower dragging the pen around a loop instead of lifting it in some cases. There's also difficult to quantify aspects from things like changing directions (such as in a cursive f) that are known to be mentally more challenging and slow down the process. That's why most people's natural script is mixed; humans naturally seek efficient ways to accomplish tasks. Additionally, if you have standards of legibility, cursive suffers significantly.This paper's old but the literature review at the start is great, and shows that even in just a few months people who'd never written printed script before could quickly approach their cursive speeds, but with much greater legibility. https://open.bu.edu/bitstream/handle/2144/17195/Maasbyll_Arthur_R_1953_web.pdf?sequence=1In short, the assumption that joined letters are faster isn't remotely true, and honestly I'd expect anyone to see as much after a couple of minutes of thought. As for the speeds ending up being as comparable as they are, well thankfully others have already gone out and gathered that data for us.There's good reasoning behind the public school curriculum first switching to prioritize printed script and now phasing out cursive altogether; if cursive was just better they never would've stopped teaching it as the standard.
>>23997936write for yourself.
>>23961148People with severe mental illnesses hold their writing utensils like that.
>>23998153Maybe part of the issue is that my hand starts hurting faster with print. But I should give mixed another shot.
>>23957756huh, apparently the original system recommended holding it like this too. Has anyone tried this? does it work? is it comfortable?
Peerless Pitman, which, despite its name, isn't actually based on Pitman.
>>23954837the basic alphabet of Aristography.
>>23997475>being on /lit/ and writing
>>24001642What’s “dh” for?
>>24001906The voiced version of th (as in "this")
>>24001686why else would one come here?
>>24000014>>23957756I just tried writing with this hold, and what I noticed is that while the grip is more firm and produces nicer writing, it's harder to lift the hand between strokes.I'd say this makes it a good hold for cursive but not so much print.I wouldn't know about shorthand though, as I'm only a novice.But since I rarely lift my pen/cil when writing print as well (which results in a half print, half cursive sort of style) I might try to incorporate the hold sometime while writing.
>>24003077interesting.>while the grip is more firm and produces nicer writing, it's harder to lift the hand between strokes.>I'd say this makes it a good hold for cursive but not so much print.It kind of makes sense that they'd recommend it then, since most shorthands try to minimize lifting the writing utensil.
>>23955836Walpole's basic alphabet.
This looks pretty damn awesome. I had an ex read my journal without my permission. It felt like a rape. This would have saved me a lot of headache.Though I must say it does look time consuming to learn. How much time does it take to learn this on average? Why not just use that time to learn a foreign language?
>>24005987> How much time does it take to learn this on average? It depends on what shorthand you learn and how fully you want to learn it. Some have a ton of rules, and others are pretty light. The alphabets themselves are usually pretty easy to learn (you could probably learn to write and read most of them in just a few hours), the more time consuming part is learning the other parts of a system (eg brief forms, prefixes and suffixes, phrasing). Some systems (like the notehand edition of gregg) try to cut down on this to make them easier to learn, and there's nothing stopping you from just ignoring stuff you won't need.>Why not just use that time to learn a foreign language?It's significantly easier, and, if you want privacy, they can't be defeated with something like google translate or chatgpt.
>>24006108Fascinating really. Thanks for this post. Is there somewhere you learned this? A particular book that got you started? Please point me in the right direction. I would definitely use shorthand for my journaling.What about this book?https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4762603-gregg-notehand
>>24006108>a few hoursNot even close buddy.Try an hour a day for ~6 months to get a basic handle on a shorthand. They used to be taught in semester long courses and had notoriously high drop out rates due to the difficulty. You could theoretically learn Cyrillic characters' Latin equivalents in an hour, but that doesn't mean you can read and write proficiently, or even that you'll remember them a week later.It's still significantly easier than a foreign language and the privacy stuff is true, on top of the obvious benefits of being able to write more quickly. While most people no longer need to write with pen and paper, there are a number of situations it can still be useful (such as in secret areas where you can't bring electronic devices).
>>23992399slower than I write in English, however the symbols are phonemic and for that reason I feel like the process of turning thoughts into writing in Shavian feels more fluid and "faster". I actually have to pay attention to the sounds of words in my head which is nice. Writing in English kind of feels "numb" afterwards if that makes sense. Like in Shavian I'm actually writing what I sound like, while in English it's like I'm literally writing "word word word".
>>24006656https://www.stenophile.com/gregg-shorthandthere's a bunch of notehand material here.>>24007423The drop out rate was high not because of the inherent difficulty of writing in shorthand compared to longhand, but because those people were learning shorthand to use it in a professional field (like as a court reporter), which required them to be able to write at verbatim or near verbatim speeds. Someone learning shorthand for personal use doesn't have to write that fast, they just need to know the basics of a system.
>>23961148was chris-chan a stenographer?
>>23883526My longhand is as quick and unreadable as shorthand already
>>24008653samemy handwriting is like a scratch and has gotten worse with the expansion of typing
>>24007755You have to at least write faster than you do longhand, which will still take a lot of practice. Even if you don't hit 100 WPM, if you're not hitting 50+ it's not worth the effort.>>24008653>>24008757As a fellow chicken-scratch writer, it's still a long ways from shorthand. I certainly more than doubled (probably about tripled) my speed without any real loss in legibility (to me; it's obviously meaningless to others). The transition from letters to sounds just cuts out so many glyphs that even if they were all just as complex and slow to write you'd still be significantly faster. Add in the fact that the shorthand glyphs were made with speed in mind, and it blows longhand out of the water.
>>24008635Maybe a Virginia child development special ed person taught him to hold it like that
>>23883526>he typed his post in longhand>there is no keyboard to shitpost withLooks like longCHADS win again.
>>24009315There are some typeable shorthands.https://opsahl.github.io/yash/
>>23883526My grandma knew how to write shorthand because she was a secretary a million years ago She died a few years ago at age 90
>>24009117perhaps they were on to something.
bump
>>24001642Common sounds and consonant clusters also have ways to indicate them.
>>24010224>million years ago>died a few years ago at age 90was she a time traveller?
>>24012668>hy·per·bo·le>/hīˈpərbəlē/>noun>exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.>"he vowed revenge with oaths and hyperboles"
>>24012683damn, I thought I was on to something.
It came!
>>24014121
>>24014199Thanks! I tried writing it in shorthand and royally fucked it up. Can't figure it out lol.
>>24014310You could probably just use the brief for "thank" (th with a dot next to it), or "thank you" (th-u).
>>24007548Do you think your speed could ever get close to normal English?
>>24012156there's also positional writing to indicate vowels in words where they're omitted.
>>24005378Walpole's system also uses a lot of the same tricks.Both Walpole and Aristography inherited a lot of features from Pitman, which was the dominant English language shorthand at the time.
>>24012033
>>23955836Another sample of Walpole, from an actual trial apparently.
Mosher shorthand, a modified version of Gregg.
Dutton's speedwords, an alphabetic shorthand/international auxiliary language.
Weaver's progressive shorthand.
>>23919456acrually, it would probably better (and easier) to write something like "do not trabslate" on every page.
>>24020757A list of Mosher's changes to Gregg.
>>24024491Doesn't that depend on every last person who can read shorthand to honor it?
>>24025764Typically the pool you're pulling from is so small they're both much more likely to comply.Depending on the shorthand, it's very feasible there's less than ten--if that--people that can both read it and be found online. I searched for Forkner, and I found one lead on how to find someone who could read it. He also mentions wanting to keep things from prying eyes, so I think a 'do not translate' would certainly ward him off.And then what? Where would you go next? You could certainly learn it yourself, or look into a codebreaker. But that's going to be a much larger time/money investment. Most people will give up before even trying to contact the first guy.Really shorthand is like a lock in terms of security. It'll keep most out, but for a dedicated attacker it'll just slow them down.
>>23926527but anon >>23924186thats more aesthetically pleasing to me than regular writing.
>>23883526alright i wanna learn it but first i need help deciding which system to use,i dont wanna do thin/thick as i feel id have trouble with that and what is teeline,gregg seems like a good choice but i dont know yet.
>>24026860if you need help deciding, check out some of the ones listed here: https://old.reddit.com/r/shorthand/wiki/recommendationsThere are links to textbooks for most of the recommended systems that you can skim through and decide if you like them or not (there are also a bunch more on stenophile.com).Gregg is a pretty good choice, since it was used for decades and has tons of resources. There are also more "casual" versions of it (like notehand mentioned earlier) if you don't want to commit to learning a full-blown shorthand system.
>>23883526>this thread is STILL upHoly fuck this board is dead
>>24027569This thread gets impeccably-timed bumpsIt’s a good thread
>>24027403i will probably try a bit of both gregg and pitman to see which one i like better,bonus point for pitman because i found a book of it in my first language which is french and maybe i could get use to thick/thin.
>>24026482Question: Has anyone tried to build machine learning models that can read shorthand? Just out of curiosity.
