>late 60s>a literal 17 years old Italian princess starts translating the Lord of the Rings >in the following decade, it somehow gets extremely popular within far right circles>they even held yearly Woodstock-like fascist youth festivals called "Hobbit Camps" >some people claim owning a copy was almost a political statement back then >LoTR becomes part of essential fascist literature, and the strong Tolkien-far right association lasts for decades>in the early 2000s, the Peter Jackson movie trilogy fully popularized Tolkien (outside of the italian fascist environment)>the Italian dub still uses the "fascist" translation as a reference for names, places and general terms >at some point, the book publisher stops paying the old princess her translation royalties (being a rich aristocrat, she doesn't even notice)>less than a decade ago, the far right starts getting popular again; their italian political parties are largely made of right-wing/far right boomers that grew up reading Tolkien>the italian publisher then decides LoTR must be re-translated>all the names and terms are purposely changed and replaced with new ones (some people claim they did it to fully distance the books from the classic "fascist" translation), even when it wasn't really needed>the publisher starts promoting the new edition by shitting on the princess and her translation, stating it was awful and full of errors ("every page had 500 mistakes")>the princess, whose translation was reportedly approved by Tolkien, sues the publisher, basically claiming they're tarnishing the legacy of her work for a marketing ploy>a legal shitstorm ensues, both parties tried to prove their goodwill to the public but in the end they fail to reach an agreement >each end every LoTR book gets withdrawn and removed from shelves>all the (non privately-owned) copies in circulation are destroyed>the new translation gets published: the general public deeply hates it (mostly because they changed all the names) despite the excellent linguistic work>every LoTR-related content in Italy (including the other Tolkien books, plus the movies, games, merchandise ecc) still use the classic translation as a reference, so both fans and new readers are fully lost as they're forced to deal with two conflicting sets of names and terms >old copies with the classic translation skyrocket in priceWhat the hell
>>23902657What are some examples of the name changes?Why not just stick with the original names, surely Italians can handle that?
>>23902670>What are some examples of the name changes?I only remember the biggest offender being Sam. The old translation adapted it into Samvise which is the same as the original only changing one letter since there is no w in the italian alphabet. The new translation changed into Samplicio, which roughly means simpleton, which is supposedly closer to Tolkien's original intentions.It also changed all the songs in order to stick closer to the original metric and sacrificing rhymes. This is very evident in the opening poem>>23902657>old copies with the classic translation skyrocket in priceMaybe online? I see them around all the time at a fairly affordable pricing in used bookstores. I also recall seeing the edition I own still in sale at a bookstore, maybe some left over stocks?
>>23902696>The new translation changed into SamplicioThat's pretty bad, he wasn't Samdumb. Looked up the Italian wikipedia, the biggest change seems to be Strider which makes sense as it's the most descriptive name, from Grampasso to Passolungo. Can't comment on the accuracy, but Grampasso sounds better to my ear.
>>23902657Isn't the bombiani edition the one with the new translation? That outrageous pricing seems to be an isolated case since I can find what appears to be the same edition online for like 50 bucks, which is a lot but not unheard of for fancy illustrated edition of beloved classics
>>23902742Both the old and the new one are Bompiani. >I can find what appears to be the same edition online for like 50 bucksWhere? Pic related is the new one.
>>23902657and that's why italy will forever be poor
>>23902657Comparison of the translations, discussion in English:https://thesis.unipd.it/retrieve/981fb664-9085-4489-9866-7ed0fa80523f/Frontiera_Sophia.pdfInteresting tidbit>After the publisher Bompiani announced the new translation of the book, numerous controversies arose both from fans and from the translator Vittoria Alliata herself. Alliata’s displeasure is based on the critiques of her work made by her colleague Fatica. He points out that there are many errors, such as doubling adjectives, that she created too long sentences, adding explanations inexistent in the original text, or errors made while translating the nomenclature. Alliata justifies her choices with literary and rhetorical arguments, explaining how her use of double adjectives was inspired by Dante and Petrarca’s expressions used to convey and reinforce concepts. Alliata underlines how in Italy every student learns figures of speech and in this way, using an Italian literary style could make it easier for the reader at the time to understand and appreciate The Lord of the Rings.Sounds like Alliata wrote a verdant flowing Italian work, whilst the new translators want to ape grim Anglo tersity.
>>23902670Ranger: The title of Ranger translated as Forestale27 is the name that Italian people most lamented. The Rangers of the North, commonly referred to as Rangers, were a northern wandering people of Eriador. They protected the land, wandering the wastes of Eriador, but their secretiveness made the people of Bree and the Shire consider them dangerous even because their appearance was grim, their deeds seldom recorded, and they were usually dressed in grey or dark green.Alliata used the term Ramingo, according to Vocabolario Treccani, one of its meanings is vagabondo “che va errando in qua e là”. One of the first meanings of Ranger in the Oxford English Dictionary is wanderer or rover. Rover has roots in Dutch and Middle Low German, and it means travelling from place to place without a specific destination, over a wide area, but also a pirate, a robber, or a rider, all of which can have negative connotations. However, Alliata’s choice may be linked to the word raméngo, a dialect form of ramingo used mainly in Venetian dialect but also elsewhere, with the meaning of rovina, malora (ruin), as explained by the Vocabolario Treccani.Nowadays, ranger means “someone whose job is to look after a forest or an area of the countryside”. Originally the meaning33 was a gamekeeper, a forester, or someone having charge of a forest (Oxford English Dictionary). Forestale is the adjective derived from foresta which refers to forests and woods, and currently in Italian la Forestale is the term used to refer to the officers of the Corpo forestale dello Stato (State Forestry Corp). When founded it had police powers and acted as a park ranger force, responsible for controlling and protecting the territory, particularly rural and mountainous areas. Aragorn is not only a wandering person, but he has the responsibility to protect Eriador from possible raids by orcs and trolls. In the prologue of the book, it is said that Rangers are not only hunters but also Guardians and that Hobbits have them to thank for their safety. As Aragorn himself remembers at the council of Elrond “Lonely men are we, Rangers of the wild, hunters - but hunters ever of the servants of the enemy; for they are found in many places, not in Mordor only” (Tolkien 1955: 248).Perhaps Tolkien used the different meanings of the word Ranger to represent the different populations’ points of view: the people of Bree, who after the collapse of the North Kingdom continued to thrive without any central authority or government, see Ranger as wandering and with a negative connotation, while in Gondor, a society with a state organization, the word means a military body. However, the first definition in the Oxford English Dictionary, a warden of a forest (or a national or a state park) is the one linked to what Rangers effectively do, that is to say, protect people from the dangers of the wilderness.
In conclusion:>Fatica’s new translation resembles the original text because he tried to show Tolkien’s style of writing. The translator sometimes even uses English short forms in his translation that are not usually present in the Italian language. Perhaps his choices were not always the best, (e.g.: the word pittati or changing register for Gandalf and Frodo).>Alliata’s way to show Tolkien’s style is different, because she domesticated the text and created a chivalric poem, an epic text; while Fatica’s text seems to be more realistic because it has been made for a different audience. It could be seen as young adult fiction for today’s teens. In an interview for the Italian newspaper Il Giornale, Alliata explains how around 1970 the Astrolabio editor asked her to translate The Lord of the Rings. At that time Italian people were familiar with Dante and Petrarca’s epic stories, and they were familiar with the literary Italian language. In her vision, epic and chivalric poems could best represent the story created by Tolkien.Alliata wrote a chivalric epic, whilst Fatica wrote YA genreslop.
>>23902974Casa Baggins heh heh
>>23902753Ah I got it. Now that you mention it the latest alliati I bought because I had misplaced my older edition is bompiani. Then I guess you are right. The old translation illustrated does go for a few bucks
>>23902657>communist doing communist stuff because fascists are badDear God how long is this story arc going to last? Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done... On earth as it is in Heaven.
Never cared for LOTR but this is interesting. If there ever was a backtranslation of the princess's version into English I'd read it!
>fascists are so intellectually impoverished, they base their identity on a children's bookHearty Kek
A perfect demonstration to people who bemoan the state of literature that proves literature cannot be saved until the political question is addressed. Every wannabe writer should be running for office or working their way up in publishing.
>>23903088why do communists find it so hard to believe you can enjoy a book without making it your bibleis it because they rejected the actual Bible, so they project their need to fill the void onto others?
>>23903088Alliata turned it into a new Orlando. The Leftist Wu Ming people translated it into YA genreslop in pique to own the chuds.
>>23903126Why did the fascists adopt a clearly anti-fascist tale as their paragon? Are Italians retarded?
>>23902696>Samplicioholy shit
>>23903141Do you want a serious answer?Because it is an actually interesting and quite unique phenomenon to observe and analyze
>>23903174Not him but I would like the answer.
>>23903174Yeah I guess.
>>23903141I mean the soviets literally published a fanfiction where mordor are the good guys because they identified with mordorIt wouldn't surprise me if Trump's The Art of the Deal resonated with Chinese audiences
>>23903208>It wouldn't surprise me if Trump's The Art of the Deal resonated with Chinese audiencesIn China they study the Talmud to learn about businesshttps://www.newsweek.com/china-pushing-talmud-business-guide-69075
>>23903219based and rockefeller pilled
>>23903141Because it's clearly fascist, you're just retarded and have no idea what this means because all you've read in your life is black twitter and tik tok.
>>23903252Jesus Christ, you want me to dig up Tolkien and ask him myself? What do you think he'd say? Are you retarded? Touch fucking grass you fool. Don't ever speak to me again.
>>23903267Death of the author. When you dig him up ask him how he reconciled as a staunch Catholic the fact he created a race that exists beyond the possibility of redemption
>>23902696>SamplicioMa dio cane ma perché
>>23903267Sure, first show him contemporary England of course.
>>23903270Don't care I'm not a retard millennial who believes in death of the author. Only one correct interpretation.
>>23903276Doesn't matter, it wasn't written for modern audiences stop being OBTUSE, cockgobbler.
>>23902986How come Italian women are consistently better at translating epics than their male counterparts? Even Rosa Calzecchi Onesti's Iliad absolutely mogs the Monti translation
>>23902657Surely there are far right presses that could republish it?
I translata da booka
>>23903283Nah all aspects of institutional culture are firmly in the hands of leftists since post war and there is no such thing as independent publishing houses because Italians are congenitally allergic to imprenditorial initiative
>>23903283It needs to find a home at Adelphi tbqh
>>23903141>anti fascist taleDaily reminder Tolkien supported Franco in the spanish civil war
>>23903301>the staunch catholic supported the side that did not burn nuns aliveShocker
>>23903314Which would indicate Mordor is not fascists, but the kind of people that would burn nuns alive, like commies.
>>23903301So did anyone else who wasn’t mindbroken by liberalism
>>23903321>if you don't support the brutal fascist dictator you are le mindbroken
>>23902696>Samplicio, which roughly means simpleton, which is supposedly closer to Tolkien's original intentions???????????No is fucking not. Why is always woke faggots that destroy everything? The "fascist" version is just a normal version.
>>23903314Even with that in mind, the Republicans were still the lesser evil thoughever
>>23903281Anon, people used to learn Latin and Greek in school. The woman just went and did business as usual with her translation assuming it was for people with average culture. Then some soiboy came and destroyed it while throwing shade at a superior version. We live in the age of the retarded.
>>23903339>Lesser evil >Killing nuns No
>>23903088Lord of the Rings wasn't intended for children, that was the Hobbit. And at the time it was normal for adult people to read children books because they were respected literature, and authors often used them to hide deeper messages without the contrivances of "adult" books. The reason why Tolkien wrote LoTR in the first place was because the Hobbit got massively popular with adults.
>>23903127>Wu MingOh so it's those faggots again
>>23903382Qrd?
>>23903337>No is fucking not>Samwise: Derived from the ancient English samwís, meaning "half-wise" or "simple"
>>23903334>If you stop us from raping nuns you are...LE EVIL!
>>23902657go woke go broke
>>23903417A collective of leftist writers who striked a lucky novel in 2000 and has been plaguing Italian bookstores with their post-modern-anarcho-marxist deconstructions of history or something ever since
>>23903279You just resurrected a dude and you're whining about le modern audiences?
>>23903252Define fascism then
>>23903491https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yV8LO28JGYg
>>23903420Simple doesn't mean SIMPLETON, imbecile. Just because two words are similar doesn't mean their meanings are the same. Holy shit. Nu-translators are worse than machine translation.
>>23903469So they're actually declared leftards? Do you have any source or anything? Not doubting. Just want to see how these people are.
>>23903523>Simple doesn't mean SIMPLETONBut half-wise does
>>23903283Not so easy. I may be mistaken, but I remember reading Italy had a set of requirements that prevented you from printing a second translation of a book that was first published there less than 70 years ago. It seems oddly specific but it had to do with consistency of contemporary books or something, even the original publisher would need a loicense and a new publisher would need to get both the rights and the license, because another publisher is already simultaneously printing a different version. It will be surely done in 20 years when there are no more legal requirements
I'd understand deriving some sense of identity out of a book, but a translation? Just read the original nigga
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GO THAT RETARDED WAY WHY NOT USE A NAME THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS LIKE SIMPLICIO>This name derives from the Christian Latin “Simplicius,” from the Latin “simplex” meaning “simple, consisting of only one part, single, unique, natural, not artificial, devoid of ornaments, elementary, easy, not complex, candid, frank, sincere, genuine, naive,” which in turn is composed of two elements: “semel” (once, a single time) plus “plicō” (fold, bend or flex, roll up). Saint Simplicius of Olbia was an Italian bishop, the first Bishop of Olbia. He is revered as a saint by the Catholic Church. The feast day is traditionally celebrated on March 10.FUCKING HELL
>>23903606Because frodo would spend the three books calling him simp for brevity and that would be silly
>>23903612Wrll he is a simp for Frodo, objectively speaking.
>>23903589>t. has for sure read the iliad in ancient greek Also what is the king james bible?
>>23903619I'm talking about LotR here.
The Lord of The Right-wings
>>23903632Why wouldn't the same principle apply? English very much was not lingua franca in 1970 when te translation first came out. Especially considering it is a book you would read as a child or young adult, is it that strange that some would develop a special attachment to it if it resonated with then? Isn't their outrage at a perceived offensive treatment of a classic not justified? And even discarding that, if the argument for not only a new translation but an outright cancellation of the previous one is bullshit, wouldn't it be bullshit and deserving of ridicule and outrage regardless of your personal feelings towards the original? Feel free to handwave what is a legitimately thought provoking topic of discussion for a literature forum
>>23903589Imagine if when Emily Wilson's Iliad came out the Pope version was withdrawn from the market and new generations were bound to be forever stuck with her tripe
>>23903642>Why wouldn't the same principle apply?Because even back in the 70s english is still much more accessible than ancient greek. And the issue you're bringing up is happening now, not in the 70s.>Especially considering it is a book you would read as a child or young adult, is it that strange that some would develop a special attachment to it if it resonated with then?You're developing an attachment to a translation, not the original work. This also applies to the bible, which most christians don't even read anymore anyway.>>23903647I agree that removing the previous translation as a political statement is bad, if anything they should let people pick the one they want to buy. But ultimately you don't win because the right choice would be to pick the original in english.
>>23903656In Italy ancient Greek was universally taught in schools in the 70s while English wasn’t but irregardless your argument is retarded. How long does a work have to be around for it to become a classic that you can grow attached to even in translation?
>>23903656>he doesn't read Moby Dick in the superior Alessandro Ceni's tuscanized italian translationNgmi
>>23903647>Pope version was withdrawn from the marketOne day inshallah
>>23903660>How long does a work have to be around for it to become a classic that you can grow attached to even in translation?Never, you should always read the original, otherwise accept that you're not experiencing the original work. It really cannot get any more simple than that.
>>23903669>otherwise accept that you're not experiencing the original workAnd? It never stopped anyone from enjoying the iliad and growing a profound attachment to it, regardless of how true or worthy or whatever you may deem it
>>23903538Except that Tolkien never intended for Sam to be an idiot. We have his letters and we know this for sure, he always thought of him as a naïve but good-hearted character. His name in this case is more of a wordplay for someone with no experience. And ALL translators in romance language coincide with this:Spanish: SamsagazFrench: SamsagacePortuguese: Samwise Italian: Samvise Note that most of them prefer to leave the name as close to the original as possible (sagaz and sagace mean wise in Spanish and French) because romance languages don't have a direct translation to half-wise. No one until the leftists woketards thought of translating it to idiot/stupid.
>>23903676>It never stopped anyone from enjoying the iliad and growing a profound attachment to itA translation of it*
>>23903680A distinction without a difference
>>23903669This is retarded. Often people can get more out of reading a translation than the original work. I think most people would get more out of the KJV than learning ancient Greek to read the NT for instance. But this is probably bait so w.e
>>23903684Well, considering this thread is complaining about translations I think it's pretty clear it does make a difference.
>>23903589>>23903632>>23903669Shut the fuck up and fuck off from the thread. You don't read books. You haven't read any Tolkien work. You're a mentally ill schizo who goes spamming "original language" when you haven't read a single book in years. Nobody fucking cares about your retardation.
>>23903695This Eyetayan is speaking the truth
>>23903695I have LotR and The Silmarillion in english, illustrated by Tolkien. I really don't get why you're so mad, you're writing in english right now. Surely you can read an english book?
>>23903701Surely you can suck this dick frocione
>>23903708E benvenuti a 'sti frocioniBelli grossi e Tolkienoni
>>23903701You haven't read anything. No actual Tolkien fan would go around trying to derail threads talking about the loyalty of his translations. You're stealthy trying to defend the shitty translation and divert attention. And you wouldn't be talking crap about translations when Tolkien himself was prolific translator. Fuck off already. You're trying to derail the thread and is transparent.
>>23903725Autismo ti dico
>>23903725I literally said like 10 posts ago that I agree that removing a translation from circulation was wrong >>23903656. It's always the politically obsessed faggots that bring up their persecution complex the moment you don't dickride their opinions.And I'm keenly aware of Tolkien's opinions on translation, I simply disagree with some of them.
>>23902657>somehowPartly it was because of resonance of those themes with the right, but let's not forget the left itself didn't care about the book back then, they sneered at everything that didn't deal with materialism and social issues (see how they treated Tomasi di Lampedusa and Elemire Zolla, the latter of which wrote a preface to LotR too).Then they realized the book became popular and tried to spin it as the evil right "appropriating" it, like with the Wu Ming pamphlet.
>>23902657>"Fascist"It is so fucking amusing as an italian to witness how this word is used to categorize any individual with an opposing view to the part that uses this word. Left wing politics thrived on the use of the word alone. Also i find absurd every single effort to retranslate literary works, nothing screams euthanization of free thought better than somebody shitting on "old" translations and the cherry on top is that every single effort of changing names and words etched in the collective mind is generally laughed upon, every single time
>>23903733Stop derailing the thread to the 999999th discussion of "read the original" then. Otherwise you're just another shitposter that needs to be called out. You don't hold a serious opinion. Most people don't read books on their original languae. That's hold by freaks and LARPers only. Please stop posting ridiculous opinions if you want to be taken seriously or accept the fact you're a fucking clown. If you have anything to contribute do it regarding the original translation in Italian, so if any other anons from Italy are lurking they can be informed. Nobody is informed by the superfluos meme of "Moby Dick should be read in English".
>>23903747It's almost like dialectic is a core principle of leftists' way to spread their ideology. Crazy...
>>23903754it is after all. It's like they want to hold society in a time capsule where there will always be this phantom menace of a nostalgic return to 100 years ago. I fucking hate lefties so much it's unreal. unironically if fascism or something akin to it will come back it will be because left wing ideologies can't into balancing their retardedness before it gets unbearable to anyone with an inch of grey matter
>>23903647I wouldn't exactly call Indian PoD archive.org scans ‘the market’
>>23902657>Princess Vittoria Alliata di Villafranca (born 23 January 1950) is an Italian author and translator. As a teenager, she produced the first translation of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings into Italian.>Vittoria Alliata did post-graduate studies in Lebanon in the late 1960s, but abandoned them in order to become acquainted with Arab and Muslim women of all social backgrounds. She travelled in the Middle East, including the Arabian Peninsula and Iran, for more than a decade, and her experiences resulted in the 1980 book Harem, which depicts the daily lives of Arab and Muslim women.>She later wrested control of the family's 100-room summer palace from Opus Dei and the Mafia, and had it renovated.>Vittoria Alliata spoke at a conference in Moscow of the International Movement of Russophiles in March 2023, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine.Is she /ourprincess/?
>>23903656>>Because even back in the 70s english is still much more accessible than ancient greek.t. retarded American who didn't have latin and greek in high school.
>>23904007We need monarchy again so we can have ppl like this and the Habsburg weeb in control instead of fag politicians
>>23903524You can check it on their own website, they brag about the whole thing.
>>23903656>Because even back in the 70s english is still much more accessible than ancient greek.You have no idea man. Italian people in the 70s were still trying to learn ITALIAN. About half the population was still speaking in their local dialect, which wasn't just a slightly modified Italian but a completely different language. About 30% of the people couldn't write or read at all. Public TV was teaching people their own national language.The English language was as foreign as Chinese to them. A majority of today's elders still don't speak italian in their daily lives, and the systematic teaching of English started around 20 years ago. The vast majority of Italians (80%) can't speak fluent English to this day and only half of them can understand the language at all, mostly the youth (and even then, it's usually just a very basic understanding).
>>23902657>the princess, whose translation was reportedly approved by TolkienIsn't this quite relevant?If Tolkien himself approved, doesn't that pretty much destroy the argument that the translation is bad?
>>23904306This. Anon knows how it is.>The vast majority of Italians (80%) can't speak fluent English to this day and only half of them can understand the language at all, mostly the youth (and even then, it's usually just a very basic understanding).Absolutely true. Not only this, but it's like most italians are allergic to foreign languages and find every single excuse to put some effort into learning it, which frankly is weird, since the english language should be a piece of cake to comprehend on a structural level especially compared to italian, which is very heavy on verbs. Also btw study of ancient greek and latin in italy is mostly something you do in the Scientific or Classic High school and in a very bad way, since the focus is on the language only and not on the discovery of interesting philosophy and works which could influence young minds. This creates a situation where 80 percent of ex liceo scientifico or classico students are entitled faggots who flex on their useless knowledge of two dead languages. I had a unbearable ex gf who once said to me "i dont get why some people would go study at a professional high school (very technical studies, you basically get trained as a steel worker or such) and all i could reply to such a spoiled view was "next time your boiler breaks down instead of calling a plumber just recite some cicero to it, i'm sure that will fix the problem"
>>23904447>and find every single excuse to put some effortevery single excuse to avoid putting some effort*
>>23904379Tolkien knew the basics of Italian but he couldn't fluently speak it.They later found a letter that suggests Tolkien wasn't confident with his own knowledge of the language, so he asked a colleague/friend (an expert in Italian literature or something that was also very familiar with Tolkien's writings) to help him assessing the quality of the Italian translation.The guy read it and said it was a worthy adaptation, and Tolkien merely trusted his friend's judgement.At least that's the argument they use to de-legitimize Tolkien's endorsement of the princess' edition
>They later found a letter that suggests Tolkien wasn't confident with his own knowledge of the language, so he asked a colleague/friend (an expert in Italian literature or something that was also very familiar with Tolkien's writings) to help him assessing the quality of the Italian translation.The guy read it and said it was a worthy adaptation, and Tolkien merely trusted his friend's judgement.At least that's the argument they use to de-legitimize Tolkien's endorsement of the princess' editionHow can this be a fucking argument to shit on her translation? She is pretty based btw, there's a letter she wrote to the italian tolkien society regarding the whole shitshow where she calls out the new translation as something born on the wave of new political correctness bullshit and i frankly agree. Casting out a whole translation just because nostalgic far right retards did summer camps named after a book race is peak leftist scumbag tactics to put their greasy hands on something in order to adapt it to their mantra. Bonus, read what she said in the letter, i'll translate it for you guys:>...with the contribution of all of those which all over the years, especially in italy, have studied the intricacies of a message that in virtue of its epicness and its ethics constitutes a serious menace to the financial and technocratic oligarchy that strives for global oppression, the slavery of minds and hearts and the flattening, or should i say destruction of every cultural difference and identity
>>23904467It's all just an excuse to push their agenda.
>>23904511Fun fact: I looked up the founders of the Italian Tolkien Society According to this italian LoTR magazine, they are>guy 1: former member of MSI (the successor of the original italian fascist party), also the founder of the Julius Evola Foundation >guy 2: founder of the "European Identity" association and director of a hyper-catholic publishing company, defined as "far right"; he recently printed a massively popular "anti-woke" book that generated a national controversy -the author (an army general) got suspended and later elected as a member of the european parliament >guy 3: defined as the "leader of the pagan right wing branch of the tolkien fandom"
>>23903281Women are generally much better translators than men. I don't know if there's any specific reason for it, but it's a phenomenon I've noticed in English as well.
>>23904617Barely surprising.
>>23904617Good.
>>23903281>>23904638Men typically lean towards being autistically accurate. Women lean towards aesthetics and the essence of the work. People will argue back and forth forever on which is more important. It's THE fundamental question of translation. All translating is an art of choosing when to sacrifice one for the other. Depending on the specific work it is sometimes better to be literally accurate, and sometimes better to try to capture the feel. I think with epics the essence of the work is especially important.
>>23902657>so both fans and new readers are fully lost as they're forced to deal with two conflicting sets of names and termsWelcome to translated fantasy literature, this shit is absolutely standard.Actually, not even limited to fantasy, but it is the genre that makes use of "meaningful proper noun" trope the most I think. As someone who grew up on Russian translations I can count at least three distinct examples of translations with very conflicting approaches to translating names.> TolkienAt least six translations, with varying levels of creativeness in proper nouns. E.g. differing on translation, Frodo's surname may be "Бэггинc" (full on transliteration of the English one), "Cyмкинc" or "Topбинc" (different slavic roots for "bag" ("cyмкa"/"тopбa") appended to the English surname ending.>Harry PotterTwo official translations (two publishers bought non-exclusive rights and had different translators). Differences are too long to list but the proper nouns from one to the other are completely different. The differences are radical: one edition transliterates everything no matter how much meaning it loses (e.g. most readers of the translated Harry Potter books - teens, with their level of English - would not be able to infer anything about the spell "obliviate" being transliterated as "oбливиэйт"). The other one "slavicizes" every proper name to the point of comedy - e.g. Severus Snape becomes "Злoдeyc Злeй" (if I retranslate it back to English literally, something along the lines of "Villanious Eville").>WH40K booksTwo publishers with an array of translators working on different books. Big issues with names too: the most well-known one is either transliterating Horus from English ("Хopyc") or taking the estabilished Russian name for the egyptian god ("Гop"). I'm sure there are examples with more "high-brow" literature too, but by the time I stopped reading fantasy, I stopped reading translations, so I can't point to examples.
>>23904763>this shit is absolutely standard.It's not. Most fantasy books have an authoritative version.>but by the time I stopped reading fantasyLARPer.
>>23904763Assuming you're adapting/re-translating something with a preexisting fanbase, I think as a general rule you should stick to the most popular names (assuming it's doable according to copyright at least).I know it can make sense to "invest" in the future by rectifying errors from previous translations (like making the names more faithful), but it only makes sense if a) the subject is not that popular anymore, orb) you're willing to retranslate every single derivative work as well. Otherwise it's useless.Example: the Italian edition of Harry Potter renamed most of the characters with english-sounding names that vaguely suggest the same meaning as the original (example: "Oliver Wood" is "Oliver Baston", as it sounds similar to "bastone" with means wooden stick).Then it got retranslated and they kept the original names. No one, and I mean fucking no one uses the english names. The subject is still too popular and the most popular media (the movies) used the italianized names, so all of the derivative works kept using the italianized names. Which means the new translation only managed to add confusion to new readers.
>Miyazaki Hayao criticizes The Lord of the Rings as a metaphor for xenophobia>4chan: Shut up, left-wing grandpa! Tolkien wrote about the conflict between good and evil!>Italian right-wingers revere The Lord of the Rings as the bible of European nationalism>4chan: OMG BASED AS FUCK
>>23905260xenophobia is indeed a result of the conflict between good and evil
>>23903283Copyright, they would just get sued by the Tolkien Estate.
>>23902974You casa Baggins casa
>>23903300They did publish the hobbit, so I don't see why not ideologically speaking. But if it's an issue of copywright, then it's as good as dead, at least for this generation. Good thing I got my old editions
>>23905318You sound evil
>>23902974>only three variantsrookie numbers
>>23905260The latter built a bustling community of impassionate erudites with their own traditions and rituals that kept alive interest in the work for generations. The former just grumbled like the old man he is and added nothing to the world with his take on lotr
>Italian neo-fascists need British fantasy novels to build their ideology>Meanwhile, the grumpy old man has done a better job with movies starring Italians than the entire Italian far right combined
>>23904617I'd rather stick with the "neo fascists" who oppose globalization and corporativism than the left wingers who would deconstruct a translation into the usual marxist spiel about the free market while making cash out of it.
>>23905387Good.
>>23904617Good to see the tradcaths and pagans uniting lol
>>23902696>It also changed all the songs in order to stick closer to the original metric and sacrificing rhymes.Hate when it happens, worst translating choice.
>>23905450read >>23903126
>>23904763Also the problem here is not that there's "different version of the book", but that one version which is more accurate to the original was removed and replaced by an ideologized version.
>>23906731>ideologized versionwhat
>>23906862Read the thread. The new version is being pushed for propaganda/woke reasons. And the group are leftoids.
>>23906945take your meds schizo
>>23907073Fuck off shill
>>23903141>anti-fascist
>>23905450>muh cartoonsfucking faggot
>>23905387don't be xenophobic now
>>23902696>Tolkien's original intentions.was it? this another moment of media literacy? desiring home and being of no personal ambitions is not simpleton instead of humble or joyful?
>>23908415>>23903420
>>23902670>Why not just stick with the original names, surely Italians can handle that?Tolkien chose a lot of the names to have specific meanings or resonances, he even wrote a guide to which names to translate and along which lines and which to leave the same. For example, Frodo Baggins isn't actually called that in-universe- in Westron he's called Maura Labingi. "Frodo Baggins" is effectively an English adaptation of his actual name, so it makes sense that other languages should use their own adaptations of it.
>>23903219Makes perfect sense if you're exposed to a lot of ideas about how the Jews are dominating business but without the accompanying history of deep-seated cultural antisemitism- "how can we get in on that" would make perfect sense as a response.
>>23904745>Men typically lean towards being autistically accurate. Women lean towards aesthetics and the essence of the work.Does this mean an autistic woman has no hope of being a good translator, even if she understands in principle that literal accuracy is no good if the result is unreadable?
>>23903647I hear everyone talking about how Wilson's translation sucks but no specifics. What's up with it anyway? (Also besides the point but I'm pretty sure Pope's translation is long since in the public domain.)
>>23907213>A movie can't possibly be good if it's animated
>>23903126It's because they've only read one book.
>>23903141>anti-fascist talei wouldn't say it's fascist but calling it anti-fascist is absurd, since it's full of monarchies and themes like the idea of the nobility of certain bloodlines. Traditionalist would be a better description than fascist, but that isn't precise either. >>23908744Brainlet detected. >without the accompanying history of deep-seated cultural antisemitism-Anglo countries don't have this either. It's actually the opposite (they are extremely pro-Jewish). So the real difference is that Anglos aren't allowed to recognize the fact that Jews collaborate to keep power within their own ingroup. So them studying the Talmud would be an implicit recognition of "anti-semitic" conspiracies, which is obviously not allowed in their culture, which is why it doesn't happen. The Chinese however are allowed to recognize these taboos, and thus study the Talmud. You're a dipshit. Are you going / did you go to college for some shitty leftist indoctrination? seems like it, since you have such poor ability to think critically, combined with anti-Western/anti-White biases.
>>23905260>WAH WAH WHY DO PEOPLE ONLINE DISAGREE WITH MY CHILDISH WORLDVIEW???Maybe you should stop being such a pussy?
>>23904617no wonder the leftard goblins are seething lol
>>23903334>thinking Franco was a fascistThe Phalanx was fascist. Franco first allied with them, then used them as a sponge to soak up ex-commies, then shipped them to the Eastern Front basically to get them out of his ass.But Franco was not himself a Phalangist.
>>23903088>>23903141>>23903176>>23903179Keep in mind that people tend to project their own values and beliefs on completely unrelated fictional works.Similarly to early Christians (which adopted Platonism and integrated some of its traits into their ethics), Middle Age scholars tried to reframe ancient greek epics as christian-compatible/oriented as well (by drawing parallelisms and "finding" catholic symbolisms), and renaissance humanists continued the trend by reinterpreting many greek philosophical texts as precursors of the christian doctrine.Arab scholars did the same with many foreign works; their early translations of european classics (such as The Divine Comedy and Don Quixote) were reframed and aligned with Islamic values and perspectives.Needless to say, it's also true with political movements and regimes. The soviets did the same with authors such as Tolstoy and Dostoevsky (and even western ones like Shakespeare and Dickens), analyzing their works and finding/emphasizing themes -that often weren't there to begin with- such as class struggle, social justice, critiques of aristocracy or capitalism etc. Non-russian communists similarly appropriated popular books from their own country, reframing them as pre-communism works with a socialist subtext.Fascists and nazis famously appropriated the works of Nietzsche, d'Annunzio, Goethe, Pound and so on and so forth. It's a very common phenomenon you can still observe to this day, even on the internet. You can probably remember the first Joker movie getting praised by tankies for its anti-capitalist message, while simultaneously becoming an icon among wignats and even incels (which almost saw it as a manifesto for its portrayal of a disenfranchised white male/social outcast).There's an entire sub-community of leftists that actually believe the manga One Piece is secretly a communist metaphor, just like the anime Capitan Harlock was seen as a nationalist allegory by old school far right anime fans.Given this long premise, it really isn't hard to explain the italian far right's fascination with Tolkien, but this particular instance has a few unique factors to keep in mind.
>>23909687>such as class struggle, social justice, critiques of aristocracy or capitalismYeah definitely none of that in Dostoyevski lmfao.
>>23909687>>23903088>>23903141>>23903176>>23903179First of all, the Italian left rejected Tolkien before it even reached Italy. Post-WWII communist scholars developed an open distaste for fictional literature; they saw the entire genre as a bourgeois form of escapism that often inherited concepts and aesthetics from traditional/cultural premises they often denounced. Back in the early 60s, a famous communist novelist (Vittorini) personally prevented LoTR from getting translated and sold by one of the main italian publishing companies. The LoTR rights were later acquired by a different publisher, which was notoriously right-leaning (some would even say far-right). This automatically framed Tolkien's works as fascist-aligned, as the general public had 0 previous exposure to the author. As another anon already mentioned, the translation surely helped as well; the princess used a very solemn and courtly language, making it sound like chivalric epic.One of the main Italian historians of religion, the philosopher Zolla, wrote an introduction to the princess translation; while his long analysis touches a plethora of subjects (drawing many parallelisms with philosophy and religion), he most notably interpreted some of the LoTR themes as defense of tradition and spirituality and a critique against modernity, materialism and degradation. Zolla wasn't a fascist himself but his works were very popular among italian right wingers, which further helped the Tolkien-fascism association. Then there's the fact Italian communists in the 70s were generally opposed to the Church (and its influence within politics) and religion; Tolkien himself described his book as a “fundamentally religious and Catholic work”, which also contributed. When it comes to the content of the books, it also really isn't that hard to tell why it would resonate with the far right, when you think about it. The setting Tolkien depicted is built on the premise of multiple biologically-distinct races, divided into different roles and societies; italian fascists interpreted the book as a celebration of concepts such as honor, tradition and virtues, and a rejection of moral relativism (with its clearly defined good vs evil dynamics). The romanticized idea of protecting your idyllic homeland from hordes of (orkish) invaders felt like an obvious allegory of their ideologically-driven struggle. They also saw Tolkien as pro-nature/natural order and anti-industrialization, which was close to their anti-american/soviet materialism/capitalism ideas. I can go on but I guess you get the point; as I said, people tend to project their own values and beliefs on fictional works, even when the author's ideology has very little to do with such ideas.But the fact Lord of the Ring was considered a fascist-adjacent work by Italians has a lot to do with the way it was framed by both the left and the right, and the unique cultural background of their country after WWII.
>>23902657Total shitalian death
>>23908756https://warosu.org/lit/thread/14172580#p14172860
>>23905322Wasn't the Tolkien Estate taken over by woke lefties? Christopher fucked up his legacy by not vetting his trustees.
>>23903088You lot quite literally took Harry Potter and Hunger Games far too seriously, you're not the ones to be pointing fingers
>>23907073Leftoid detected.
>>23903278you're trying too hard
>>23908744CCP was founded by a Russian Jew, Mao was advised by Goldman Sach, his treasurer was named Shapiro. Shapiro was not purged during the cultural revolution, under the Gang of Four or by Deng. Xi was appointed by Goldman Sach, who announced that he would be the new President a week before he was appointed by the CCP. Goldman's 'China hand' is a Jewess with dual Chinese American citizenship and a Beijing residency permit.
>>23908750Autism is a male trait. Femoids pulling faces for TikTok clout is not autism.
>>23903656Where I live, we still study Latin in high school, if you're the humanist profile. I don't know how it was in Italy, but at least here, all high schoolers studied both greek and latin until the 1940s. Shut the fuck you amerishart cocksmoker, translations are good for people who don't speak the original language. Or did you read the entirety of the french, russian, german, spanish and italian canon in their original languages?
Max Schuchart translated lotr into Dutch in 1957 en Tolkien was negative about it."In principle I object as strongly as is possible to the 'translation' of the nomenclature at all (even by a competent person). I wonder why a translator should think himself called on or entitled to do any such thing. That this is an 'imaginary' world does not give him any right to remodel it according to his fancy, even if he could in a few months create a new coherent structure which it took me years to work out."
>>23910087It's actually owned by a failing video game company, embracer group to be precise.But they've always been litigious, similarly to the Doyle estate.
>Political distortion is good when it's done by a teenage princess
>>23905450This is the movie where the protagonist straight up says it's better to be a pig than a fascist
>>23902657Good. The Alliata version was garbage.t. grew up reading it
>>23910245>Political distortionPlease provide an argument for how the text was politically distorted. If anything it is the new translation that was openly politically motivated
>>23910292Is the fatica one better?
>>23902657>they even held yearly Woodstock-like fascist youth festivals called "Hobbit Camps"They had group sex while cosplaying as Frodo and Sam?
>>23910381Not really, for every mistake he corrects, he makes another one
>>23903270because the race isn't human and doesn't have a rational soulAliens might not be subject to redemption (or damnation) like animals
>>23910381I haven't actually read the whole thing tbf, but it seems like an improvement from what I've seen. At the very least they fixed some of the objective mistakes in the previous version, like using the wrong italian word for city gates or translating "sister-daughter" as "sister and daughter".Changing the names that were already famous was dumb, I'll grant that. It's only a cosmetic change and it caused 99% of the outrage.
>>23910687How's the change in register? How dumbed down it is compared to the previous translation?
>>23908750The good translation in this case was made by a woman. The dogshit ideological translation by a male. Please fuck off with your incel diarrhoea to other thread.
>>23910087The Tolkien Estate is owned by the Tolkien family. They can retire or refuse to give rights if they want to. After the Hobbit fiasco Christopher called out the atrocious movies, the fans followed and the movies were a flop. He decided to don't sell any rights further after that. The problem now is Christopher has passed away and the moron Simon with daddy issues took over. He's the responsible for selling the rights to Amazon for rangs of powah. He also married a Jewish woman.
>>23910292>>23910687So true sister! The previous fascist racist misogynist version is now cancelled! The new 100% accurate version is modernised and for modern audiences only! Unlike the racist version done by a biological woman TERF filled with mistakes!
>>23910724If anything, the new translation has a more archaic register from what I've seen. Looking at the end of The Siege of Gondor:old>Gandalf non si mosse. In quell'istante, lontano in qualche cortile della Città, si udì il canto di un gallo. Era limpido e chiaro, ignorava la magia e la guerra, non faceva che acclamare il mattino che su nel cielo, oltre le ombre di morte, si avvicinava con l'alba.>E come in risposta giunse da lontano un altro suono. Corni, corni e corni. Si udivano fiochi echeggiare nei fianchi del cupo Mindolluin. Grandi corni del Nord che suonavano con forza. Rohan era finalmente arrivato.new>Gandalf non si mosse. E in quel preciso istante, in un lontano cortile della Città, cantò un gallo. Un canto stridulo e chiaro, incurante di stregoneria o di guerra, semplice nuncio del mattino che nel cielo sovrastante l’ombre della morte sorveniva con l’aurora.>E, come in risposta, ecco giunger di lontano un’altra nota. Corni, corni, corni. Echeggiavano fiochi alle pendici dello scuro Mindolluin. Grandi corni del Nord soffiati all’impazzata. Rohan era arrivato finalmente.>"and in that very moment" -> "in quell'istante" -> "e in quel preciso istante"new one is a literal translation of the original>"away behind in some courtyard" -> "lontano in un qualche cortile" -> "in un lontano cortile"old one is closer to the original>"a cock crowed" -> "si udì il canto di un gallo" -> "cantò un gallo", "they dimly echoed" -> "si udivano fiochi echeggiare" -> "echeggiavano fiochi"new one changes from passive form to active, in keeping with the original>"shrill" -> "limpidio" -> "stridulo""stridulo" is a literal translation of "shrill", while "limpido" is a synonym of "chiaro" ("clear") which is already present>"recking nothing of wizardry or war" -> "ignorava la magia e la guerra" -> "incurante di stregoneria e guerra"almost the same, new one is maybe slightly closer to the original>"welcoming only the morning" -> "non faceva che acclamare il mattino" -> "semplice nuncio del mattino"both aren't quite the same as the original but the new one is very archaic, literally nobody uses "nuncio" (announcer) these days>"far above the shadows of death" -> "oltre le ombre di morte" -> "sovrastante l’ombre della morte", "was coming with the dawn" -> "si avvicinava con l'alba" -> "sorveniva con l’aurora"this whole part feels way more old-fashioned in the new translation, with terms like "sovrastante", archaic form "l'ombre", "sorveniva" instead of "si avvicinava" and "aurora" over the more common "alba">"there came from far away" -> "giunse da lontano -> "ecco giunger di lontano"new one is a much more old-fashioned form>"note" -> "suono" -> "nota"self-evident>"dark" -> "cupo" -> "scuro"basically the same, irrelevant change>"wildly blowing" -> "che suonavano con forza" -> "soffiati all'impazzata""all'impazzata" gives the idea of "wildly" better than the old translation, which is just "with force"
>>23910958In other words the new mistranslation is pretending to be accurate through literal translations and out of place old words while at the same time having things like Sampliccio. Leftoids are not a bright bunch.
why aren't there any childhood pictures of Princess Vittoria Alliata di Villafranca? like when she was a young schoolgirl reading LOTR and stuff, hanging around the garden etc.
Fuck rich people.
>>23911729
>>23903281She's an aristocrat
>>23911767the fuck are you blabbering about
>>23903219It's an old saying that the Chinese are the Jews of Asia. They are extremely base and repulsive so I guess they have that in common.
>>23903281>>23904638As a person who has been in charge of a lot of projects of varying types: men are absolute trash at tasks that require fine details and close review, which are boring, and which aren't personally creative or satisfying. If you need someone to come up with new ideas you want a man. If you want someone to review a thousand lines of data or sort through someone else's creative output and actually put in the effort and attention required to get it done then you need a woman.
>>23912339you are delusional>If you want someone to review a thousand lines of data or sort through someone else's creative output and actually put in the effort and attention required to get it done then you need a woman.if the man cares about what that code does, he will make a billion times better job than even the best womanthe issue is that since WW2 (or since the '50s in the USA) there are not many things worth caring about in that way... look up the definition of "make-work" and you will know what women are good at
>>23909687>commie wall of textoh no fascists like good things and high quality stuff and won't be satisfied with eating shit like you and all your relatives bought on a discount from street shitters larping as turk traders! the humanity! they must be stopped!
>>23912891get a grip man
>>23902657>a legal shitstorm ensuesIn one word: Italy.Guys, no hate, it just seems to me that everything that happens in Italy should have the character of a scandal, drama, shouting, gesticulation and breaking dishes. If possible, just read in English.
>>23913447like you? lol
>>23912891>commiedumdum
>>23903719based and Fracchia-pilled>>23904231You wish.We'd get Savoia 2.0 instead.
>>23912884>dude a man could do it so much better>there's just nothing out there anymore worth doing right thoughGet a job, loser
>>23912339>Women are better at boring workSounds about right
>>23902670In the original Frodo was referred to as Spaghettio, but now they've changed it to Raviolo Breadins.
>>23903088Leftists based their they're political ideology off of pretending they were Harry Potter for twenty years until JK Rowling became a TERF
>>23913553Italy is less litigious than USA but there's no constitutional free speech protection there so it's way easier to sue someone for "defamation"
>>23903141>Anti-fascistThat makes no sense you absolute fucking tard
>>23916504Thank you, I understand. (I'm not very interested). It seems that there are very few countries where there is this very protection of freedom of speech, like in the USA. And I don't think that it is worth striving for.
>>23904447>Not only this, but it's like most italians are allergic to foreign languages and find every single excuse to put some effort into learning itBased, honestly. I have far more respect for this than for the likes of the French who'll learn English and then complain that nobody wants to speak frog.
>>23904745Yeah and for Tolkien the essence is absolutely everything. Nobody is reading Tolkien because of the elegance of his prose or verse (though he's a good writer). People read Tolkien for the feel of the world and its story.
>>23903088Peak jewishnessReminder this is all the intellectual depth Jews are capable of.The childish insult is the entirety of their "argument"It's pointless to argue just call them the Jews they are and move on
good thread
is anyone working on an english translation of the italian epic from lotr?
>>23917842Yah Nirgren Ta'waanza
In a few weeks a new translation of The Hobbit will come out as well. It is being made by Wu Ming 4, a commie who hates when the right takes ownership of Tolkien, but doesn't care when he does the same. This faggot wrote a book in which apparently Tolkien is mentally ill and shits himself
>>23909222>Anglo countries don't have this either. It's actually the opposite (they are extremely pro-Jewish)England was literally the first European country to expel Jews, what are you talking about? (And the English language literally has a verb "to jew someone" meaning to cheat or swindle them.)>Are you going / did you go to college for some shitty leftist indoctrination?I went to college, but for linguistics, not anything directly related to politics.
>>23909953Criticisms of this or that translation seem kind of idle coming from someone who shows no sign of being able to read Greek.
>>23910099Are you merely pointing out that autism is less common in women (which it may be, or just underdiagnosed) or claiming that literally not a single woman has autism?>>23910863I'm asking because I'm an autistic woman with aspirations of being a translator lmao
>>23914877>LeftistsYou mean "liberals". Liberals are not leftists.
>>23920983leftists are just liberals who bought more into the luxurious lie on account of their privileged situation and meaningless existence. assuming they aren't just 3rd worlders who want free stuff, of course. leftism is a more acute form of liberalism, where people are not merely treated equally, but are made equal. the levelling effect is magnified. i can at least have respect for liberals in concept, but leftists are always of very poor character.
>>23910892Rings of Poo makes the 3rd Hobbit look like high art. It is unbelievable how bad it is. Seriously jaw dropping. And I'm not even well read on the lore. I guess the target audience is mindless 3rd worlders?
>>23920956>linguistics>not anything directly related to politicsLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
>>23920970>I'm asking because I'm an autistic woman with aspirations of being a translator lmaoYou must be autistic if you don't understand this is a dead job now.
>>23921366I am aware there are ways in which language can be tied in to politics, because ANYTHING can be tied in to politics. But it seems to me it's one of the less inherently political humanities majors.>>23921368Why's it a dead job? Machine translation still isn't as good as humans, especially for literary language.
>it's 2034>the Iliad has become the fascist bible>academia releases a "definitive" translation to replace all previous ones>reading level is reduced to 5th grade ebonics>Achilles' name changed to Suckdickules, speaks only in a lisp and cries>Agamemnon explicitly says he's going to Make Phrygia Great Again>Hector is nonbinary>Thersites DESTROYS Odysseus with facts and logic, delivered in a street-rap cypher>Incel chud Odysseus then organizes a lynching party
Does anyone recall what edits were made to Roald Dahl books, on that note?
>>23923018>I am aware there are ways in which language can be tied in to politics, because ANYTHING can be tied in to politics. But it seems to me it's one of the less inherently political humanities majors.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saxI0Zu1ABI
>>23923018>Why's it a dead job? Machine translation still isn't as good as humans, especially for literary language.Because it is unless you know someone to give you that job, it's just an excuse to get free money. If you want to do actual work, you're fucked. But since you have a pussy you'll be fine, you'll get your free money and steal the "job" from people like me easily.
>>23923074...can you give a TL;DW? I've never even played the newer Metal Gears. (And by "newer" I mean post-NES.)>>23923077>Because it is unless you know someone to give you that job, it's just an excuse to get free money. If you want to do actual work, you're fucked. Do you mean to say the people doing the actual translation work are getting no substantive money?>But since you have a pussyI don't, actually, though in real life I try to keep that fact mostly private.
>>23923087you can ask one of the AI programs to summarize youtube videos.Here's Gemini:This is a speech by Skull Face from the video game Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. Skull Face is a villain who seeks to control the world by controlling language codes. He believes that language is a tool of oppression, and that by controlling language, he can control people's thoughts and actions. He plans to do this by implanting codes into people's heads, which will allow him to manipulate their minds. He believes that this is the only way to create a truly equal world, where everyone is free from the tyranny of language.
>>23923089...I'm sorry, are you actually using a science fiction game as evidence for your thesis about the real-world field of linguistics?
>>23923090I am not the same poster, and am making no judgement on the content of the video the other anon referenced.
>>23923093Ah, sorry. Consider it addressed to that other poster, then.
>>23923087>>...can you give a TL;DW?No, just watch/read it, it's a good summary of what pretty much every relevant person has said about the topic in the 20th century.
>>23923097Is it? Why can't you point to an actual academic source, or even a pop science article, rather than a science fiction video game?
>>23923090Yes retard, do you want 150 links to books that you'll never read instead?
>>23923100Because if you knew literally anything about the subject, which you clearly don't despite claiming to be studying it academically, you wouldn't be asking for "le sources" moronic Destiny watching redditor.
>>23923103You do realize the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is not generally taken seriously by linguists nowadays, right?
>>23923064I think they just took out any time he called someone an "ugly fat tranny" or some other British witticism
>>23923106>Sapir was born into a family of Lithuanian Jews in Lauenburg (now Lębork) in the Province of Pomerania where his father, Jacob David Sapir, worked as a cantor.lol
>>23923113...what is your point here? Shouldn't you also disagree with him since he's Jewish and you're apparently a /pol/tard?
>>23923117Interesting, how did you come to that conclusion?
>>23923119Because you quoted the fact that someone who came up with some of the ideas involved is Jewish as if it's relevant to the argument?
>>23923130I just used language, why are you ascribing all these schizo conclusions to it that are completely unrelated to anything except what's in your head?
>>23923149Again, you literally just copypasted a sentence about someone who came up with one of the ideas in question being Jewish as if it were a relevant argument. That is /pol/tard behavior, or can you provide an alternate explanation for it?
>>23923156Why are you coming to all these wild political conclusions, there's just language in my post, chillax man.
>>23923158Again, can you explain why you considered this fact relevant to bring up if not that you're a /pol/tard?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BURNING BOOKS IS ONLY BASED AND REDPILLED WHEN WE DO IT
>>23923178These are your "academics" ladies and gentlemen.
>>23923197Answer the fucking question. It is a simple question. Why did you consider it relevant to the discussion that Sapir was Jewish?
>>23923087>I don't, actually, though in real life I try to keep that fact mostly private.why? you'll get many more unfair advantages if you openly disclose it
>>23924433Try spending a week in my shoes and then saying that again lmao
>>23902657Stop reading fucking translations.
>>23923208:^) **
>>23909687>>23909726I now understand more on the subject of political readings of older fictional works. I've always had a passing interest in that kind of thing
>>23926400you're welcome
>>23926400Are you literally twelve or just American that you don't know any of these things from general culture?
