>Teaching a phonetic alphabet like it's a logographic oneAre teachers stupid?Mods, move this to /his/ if it's a better fit there.
yeah that turned out to be total bunk. sure, when you know how to read you look at whole words, which is why reading ALL UPPERCASE TEXT IS SLOWER because the words don't have unique shapes. the problem is you have to learn how to read first before you can read whole words. i went through this learning arabic. it took fucking forever to just be able to look at a word and know what it said with out reading it phonetically. that stupid lady at columbia who pushed whole word reading on nyc publics school of course faced no consequences. "trust the science".
education has been degrading for like 100 years now, up to highschool its way too generalized and mostly a daycare system because every household both men and women work full-time, college just gatekeeps jobs that can be learned in 6 months on the job, by sucking up years of time and soul of the students. it used to be education was much less specialized, there was some video of random interviews in the '50s and what seemed to be normies were knowledgable about ancient history and philosophers. i'm not too knowledgable about this but its obvious if you spend 5 minutes thinking about it that education is one of those problems that seems impossible to figure out in the modern world, ideally you have small classes or even 1:1 teacher-student education and don't specialize so much.
I despise these science™ types that think their new method of whatever is superior to methods that have been used for literal eons.Using all the children as guinepigs for their scientific experiments, myself included. And lo, once it comes out that their theories were competly incorrect, they just say>oopsies, heheHonestly fuck those types, I blame them for my having to relearn practically every subject, since they used us as experiments. Once I started to learn another language I realized that I was never even taught to read English, just look at words. I had to, literally, teach myself to read and write.
>>23989694Ever consider that you were just a bad student? I never had a problem with any of this.
>>23989707When did you go to school?I don't deny that I wasn't the most motivated in class owning to my bad experience in public schooling, but I really do think that it was that many teachers failed many kids. I am a zoomer, and the failure of education among us to be pretty widespread
>>23989224what fucking retard made that image?
>>23989224The problem is dumb kids can't do whole words and don't learn how to read. And smarty-pants like me know thousands of words I couldn't pronounce properly in conversation because I intuitively know the whole word meaning from contextual reading, without knowing how to articulate the words phonemes.
>>23989765it's not wrong, the problem with the boomer white women who pushed whole word reading or whatever is that they didn't differentiate between learning to do something and the way experts who have competency do it. it would be like an beginning boxer copying one of those dudes who fights with their hands down. yeah, when you are an established pro that can work because you have good head movement and your opponent can't easily see your hands, but as a beginner holy shit keep your fucking hands up.
>>23989977It is wrong because both somebody educated with whole language reading and somebody educated with phonics would have a table pop up into their head when they *hear* table. The difference between the methods comes out when they're reading so the image isn't even relevant.
>>23990066actually when i hear someone say "table" i see the word table in my mind. that's how i know i'm not fluent in arabic cuz when i hear arabic i still see it transliterated to latin characters. when i hear arabic and see the arabic text then i will be getting somewhere.
qrd on this? i thought everyone learned phonics as kids?
>>23990189no in the late 90s early 2000s some lady decided that because adults read by looking at the shapes of whole words, that kids should learn to read by looking at the shape of the word, the first and last letter, and just guess what it says. it failed. too bad it was used in many public schools much to the detriment of a generation of kids.
>>23990189https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/10/11/teachers-college-parts-ways-with-calkins-controversial-reading-curriculum-transitions-to-new-initiative/
>>23990072That's interesting because I can only understand very simple sentences in Japanese, but I understand it natively with no translation into English. I just hear it and know what it meant.
>>23989224English ain't phonetic
>>23989224The problem is english being an inconsistent shit language in which the spelling doesn't fit the pronounciation.
>>23989224both modern english and its orthography of the Latin alphabet is broken so why BOTHERwe should just not be literate. go back to singing songs to learn stories
>>23990274Wasn't a problem for the last 500 years of teaching it, yet only now with this retarded whole-word method have we seen reading levels drop of a cliff.
>>23989227Kek had the same experience learning Dari
>>23990318I don't think any pedagogy could help reading levels in the 21st century
>>23990318It's a huge problem in the UK right now>1 in 6 adults in England functionally illiterate >1 in 8 in Wales>1 in 4 in Scotland
>>23990329If you remove niggers from schools and use classical methods, the kids turn out quite well. See Maine and demographicaply similar areas.
>>23990331Okay now filter out the rapefugees' stats
>>23990337If you say so. But today I saw a baby in a carriage holding a smartphone like a 40 year old man watching tiktok. I don't think there's any beating that. I think our communication technology development probably should have stopped at radio.
>>23990363Yeah that kid is doomed thoughbeit. Maybe we can cope with the thought that they're gaining verbal skills quicker from hearing so much more speech on video
>>23990388Thats like the cope that video games are healthy for you because of reaction time and problem solving skills(both of which modern games rely less and less on)
I argue that the reading curriculum so bad because we have divorced all the books from context. What used to be an education in a huge array of classics and history has become "alright we're reading Leviathan now" and the students have no earthly idea why any of this shit is relevant to anything. Therefore they don't give a shit. This continues even in college. Philosophy 101 has you read Republic without any relevant background into Greek history or even Plato's other dialogues! How can you ever understand Republic without reading Meno, Phaedo, Theaetetus? You can't! How can you appreciate postmodern thought if you don't have any fucking clue what the modern thought was that they're responding to? AAAAHHHHHH
>>23990432I didn't even read leviathan. Or even stuff like catcher in the rye. Or any Shakespeare beyond Romeo and juliet in translation
>>23990432>I argue that the reading curriculum so bad because we have divorced all the books from context.I agree with this. My favorite english class was one that was paired with a history class, because the teachers for the two were married and they basically co-taught each class.
>>23990498I pretty much stopped having English classes at 15 because I was so "advanced" and "gifted" I could take community college courses in high-school which turned out to be easier than middle school english class. Before that I read nothing but holocaust books and joy luck club. Then I was thrown into college classes for the rest of my time which taught me things like "how to write a formal letter" and "how to make a website using a template that has all the code for you".I genuinely came out of high-school worse read than the D students
>>23989224It was an ideological fad, I suppose. As someone who tends to be broadly on the 'progressive' side of culture war issues it's a reminder for epistemic humility, being a case where the 'progressive' position turned out to be straightforwardly wrong.
>>23990072Arabic written in Latin script is still Arabic. (And conversely English written in Arabic script would still be English.) Scripts are not languages. Seeing Arabic script would indicate your proficiency not in Arabic but in Arabic script.
>>23990273>>23990274It has a lot of exceptions but there's something there for the exceptions to be exceptions to.
>>23990965The progressive position is wrong near enough to every time
>>23989224whole language reading was debunked. If you can't sound out words you have no way of reading new words.
>>23990991There are examples where it's pretty clearly right, like global warming.
>>23989694You want to know what's really bad? >used to be an English teacher in Japan>literally teaching the alphabet and phonics to little kids>developed a system so that within a year, kids could go from not knowing the alphabet to reading words like bag, red, blue, etc. >feel proud of myself because I can see the improvement in my students>teacher meeting >we talk about teaching methods and activities and stuff>school admin introduces us to "whole language reading.">immediately in my head I'm thinking this is bullshit. >school admin insists there's "lots of data" and "experts" who agree whole language learning is legitimate >well, I've already got a phonics based curriculum that works. No point in throwing out a perfectly good system and starting all over from scratch in the middle of the school year>right? >school admin basically demands that we stop teaching phonics in favor of whole language learning >years later more and more articles like this come out https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-education/the-rise-and-fall-of-vibes-based-literacyFeels good to know my gut instinct was right and thousands of research papers were all wrong.
>>23991043Doesn't really matter in Japan anyway; those poor kids take like 10 years of English and can't even understand someone asking where the bathroom is. Their whole English curriculum has been dog shit useless for decades
>>23990331>It's a huge problem in the UK right nowHe just said that. read the second half of the post.
>>23989227>>23989694>>23989224>>23990195>>23990200>>23990993wait what? I've never heard of thisMy friend very often makes mistakes when reading things out loud: like swapping letters or adding or even removing them sometimes and recently I pressed him to find out why and how and he responded saying something like: "I look at the first and last letter and guess/imagine what the word is" and "I am reading a word or two ahead before saying out loud the previous one" I thought he was retarded because how can you not read properly in your native langauge and this explains what he meantstill think he's retarded though
>>23991613Last line gave me a hearty kek.
>>23991613after reading up on reading styles and how reading is taught and how foreign languages are taught I've found out a few things and I don't get how this "whole language" shit got pushed so hardMy mother and grandmother taught me how to read at homeAt first it was syllabifying words and then reading more smoothly over time.Don't remember if I learned how to read just the alphabet first but I knew how to read before I knew how to writeI read out loud quite a bit which definitely helped (my friend says he never read out loud much and he doesn't see much point in doing so). My reading was almost perfect by the third or fourth year of primary school (when I was 9 and 10 yo) and as for the other kids they still struggled in sixth and some in the seventh! grade (13-14 yo [I went to first grade when I was 6 as opposed to most {90+% } going when they were 7with learning english at school it was alphabet first then lessons in Polish and just like any other part of public education they were poorprivate lessons that I went to went like this: first lesson learning the alphabet (pronunciation of letters) and from the second lesson onwards fully in englishsame thing with spanishfirst lesson learning the pronunciation of letters and talking in Polish and every next lesson in spanishand I never had any trouble with reading in either language and others could still read by syllabifying if they didn't get good enough at normal reading
