Slawter is the third book in the The Demonata series by Darren Shan, though it is the fourth one chronologically. Even though all the Demonata books can be read separately this book follows on from the first in the series Lord Loss and the second in the series Demon Thief.After returning to the Disciples Assistant Grubbs, things are going wild on a movie set – so will this directors cut be fatal? Also, a very Merry Christmas to everyone! Previous Thread:>>24044135Lord Loss I:>>24004762Lord Loss II:>>24017568Demon Thief I:>>24021566 Demon Thief II:>>24032763 Slawter I:>>24044135
PART THREE - THE LABORATORY
CHAPTER 12 - DISCIPLES
>>24052858Indeed - its kind of interesting, in that way he kinda is the good guy version of Steve, which was his greatest strength. Darren could do it too, but I would say his main strength was just bravery and resilience. >>24052897>>24053286>>24053875>>24054589To be fair here - I would suspect many anons in this thread wouldn't be immune to spilling their spaghetti when presented with an cute albino girl nice to them, myself included - but this is indeed a bit much. >>24053875Darren has the defense of beeing a dumb horny teenager for almost two decades though.>>24054761That is true in any case - there were a lot of shit movie adaptions in that time, it was even worse then the dogshit Eragon Movie.
>>24054879Merry Christmas, I didn't even notice the hat from the catalog.>>24054900And then Grubbs woke up just in time to see Dervish fall into a pit of stakes.
>>24054879Nice hat!>>24054900Shit is getting real now.>>24054934Him liking her is one thing, but him treating Grubbs like crap and not listening at all is really weird after everything they went through. Now with this latest chapter, maybe everything on set was an illusion. >>24054941Its OK, Juni just needs to promise to go out for a date and he'll patch himself up and be right as rain.
>>24054879Merry Christmas Shansters.
>>24054879Good touch. Even in Christmas may you triumph
>>24054958>Him liking her is one thing, but him treating Grubbs like crap and not listening at all is really weird after everything they went through.Up in either Scotland or Ireland where the series takes place, they must not know about "bros before hoes."
>>24052378Maybe Grubbs it is just the fact, that melting a pen is simpler then a solid wall.>>24052391You kinda forgot how much shit Grubbs saw until you see his reaction compared to normies.>>24054941Heh - it has a similar setup, but we shall see. I thought something was weird when the disciples arrived via the plane - don't they have Kernel? Also, while Shan can write a breakneck pace, he isn't that hard with it.>>24054958Indeed. But as said, let Arai handle the manga adaption, give Juni a cute design and half of /a/ will be down bad.>>24055044What comes for presents, we take.>>24055886Could be - what is british dating like, anyway? When I was in Brighton this year, I noticed among the young couples around the pier, that a lot of bit spergy looking guys were running around with by common standarts pretty cute gals, which I would have thought would have been out of their league.
>>24056126>don't they have Kernel?I imagine Kernel sticks with Beranabus deep in the Demonata universe, I don't think he's easily reachable.
PART FOUR - DEMONS-A-GO-GO
CHAPTER 13 - WAKEY WAKEY
(Eggs and Bakey)
(No mistakey)
>>24056126>Could be - what is british dating like, anyway? When I was in Brighton this year, I noticed among the young couples around the pier, that a lot of bit spergy looking guys were running around with by common standarts pretty cute gals, which I would have thought would have been out of their league.As an Amerimutt, I don't know anything really about the British dating scene. Yet, I'll say that here in the U.S. at least, being a nerd or having a "nerdy aesthetic" is considered cool now, so an increased amount of women are more open and comfortable in dating those who don't strictly have a "Chad-like" behavior or appearance.
>>24057189Indeed no mistakey - this is the shortest chapter so far, I think. On the other hand, it is a much needed breather, after the ride we had so far. What I am wondering though, is if the lambs actually have a facility like that.
CHAPTER 14 - ASSEMBLY CALL
>>24058576I think they would otherwise I think Dervish would have noticed something was up.
>>24059399Lord Loss is really damn salty about that chess game.
>>24059594Lord Loss and Grubbs are unironically my favorite characters.
>>24059384Called it again >>24046545, though to be fair - it wasn't that difficult. Man, Art Hoes are crazy.>>24059594Between Lord Loss and Chess and Davida and Movies, who is the bigger autist about it?>>24059549True. I pictured the lambs before as some weird ultra-zealous christian types, but they seem more science guys. Though, as I pointed out last thread, those perspectives mix more often then you would think.>>24059614>>24059618Great Artwork. Shan is imaginative, I wonder what else he will cook up. The demon in the lodestone room sounded fucking nasty as well.
>>24059384>summoning Satan to make a bitchin' horror filmI wasn't wrong, it's still as ridiculous as I remember it being.
>>24059384I want to see what it looks like when Dervish "goes to work" on someone when he really needs answers. I bet a year+ with mister lumpy gave him some pretty good ideas.
CHAPTER 15 - THE REAL STARS OF THE SHOW
CHAPTER 16 - THE CHASE
>>24061582Thank you OP!
>>24054879Bumping to thank OP like >>24062216 did but also to keep the thread alive.
>>24054879LET'S GHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
CHAPTER 17 - BATTLE
CHAPTER 18 - BITTER SWEET
CHAPTER 19 - A LITTLE CHAT
>>24054890>Lambs in league with the DemonataHonestly, this would have been an easy call the moment they learnt Prae's daughter turned into a werewolf. She knows enough to know that Lord Loss is the only known method for curing lycanthropy so trying to get in with him would be her best bet for saving her daughter, even if it's just to study what she thinks is another branch of science to acquire it for herself.
CHAPTER 19 - A LITTLE CHAT(The real one, sorry for the mishap
>>24063943>If you kill someone who summoned sadistic monsters that tried to kill you and hundreds of others solely so he could gain semi-immortality you're just as bad as the sadistic monsters!Should've just stuck with the 'don't have the right' angle.
>>24054891ENTER
>>24061547>I deliberatly made a deal with interdimensional demonic beeing from a plan of reality that is basicly hell, that I actually knew were all evil and want to kill humans, which I specifically recruited to kill humans to make a horror movie and now I am getting killed by them. How could this be happening to me?>>24063943Same as before, but for immortality and shit. Honestly, these levels of spergery but even Larten and Darren in their worst moments to shame. It would be fun to make a suffering chart for the Demonata Series, when we are done, but it would have the same problem of the CdF one of beeing kinda lopsided in a lot of cases I guess.>>24063943Honestly, that one is a keeper. Based Juni killing this absolute tard. >>24063969Are they? I mean, who knows waht of this illusion is true and what not. But if so, not only big if true, but an excellent call.>>24064024True - while I get the point, it really is mostly less about "You will be like him" but more so about "You will be less like you / that isn't you" in those types of scenes and from that angle, I could even agree with it. Did Envy deserve to be killed? Sure. But would have been a low point for Mustang? Enough of a maybe, that I see the point. Its one thing to keep you blade bloody, but how long can you keep your hilt and grip clean? Sooner or later, you will slip, seems the lesson here.
>>24054897He's breaking the conditioning.
>>24057172Grubbs' magic side is the true MVP of this series.
>>24058576The Lambs probably do. Dervish would have noticed sooner otherwise unless he's never been to one of their locations before, which isn't impossible but makes a lot more assumptions.
Once again, a book is done. For the third, we returned to our other Master & Assistant Duo, which these times have gone to the big screen - and as by now expected, while it isn't tinsel town, the movie industry isn't to be trusted. You know the deal by now - I have another set of book club type questions ready to discuss for the pause. I am not sure, if I will post something on the 31st, since I will be out with me lads, but I will continue the dumps in the new year.>1. What do you think of the larger theme of the book – life ain’t a movie, there are no happy endings?>2. What do you think of Grubbs Character Development so far and where do you think he will go?>3. Even though a big part of it was an illusion, what do you think of the lambs, the conflict of magic vs. science and where it will go?>4. Do you think that the book is making a larger point about horror & spectacle and ethics in entertainment or just artistic hybris?>5. As before – what was your favourite monster design? We had a lot to pick from this time.
>>24059618That's some fantastic fanart.
Didn't read the threadJust surprised to see author nameI read cirque du freak in elementary school kek
>>24059384Woman, these are literal eldritch omnicidal demons. You probably won't even get the chance to film the mess before they rip you apart too.
>>24059399>wasn't interested originally>IMMEDIATELY sets this up after he gets beaten at chess
>>24059858>Between Lord Loss and Chess and Davida and Movies, who is the bigger autist about it?They're the same type of massive autist but to different degrees. Loss has the bigger scale of his autism because he's been at it for centuries and he can and will set up an elaborate murder-revenge plot a year in advance to kill people who've beaten him at chess, but Davida's movie autism is massive enough to delude her into thinking that she'll even have a movie career (or a movie) after this, having made a deal with the ultimate enemy of all life in the earnest belief they'll kill everyone but her so she can make her film.
>>24061547Someone NEEDS to make the headscratch meme with Davida. It's so fucking perfect.
>>24061565>stuck to his role even as he was being eaten aliveEven in death, he was triumphant.
>>24061554Bo with the big brains here. Grubbs will never live this down.
>>24061565>He mimed til the very endThe world lost the greatest method actor of all time here.
>>24063943Juni just shot her way to the top of best girl of all time for that. No wonder why she has Dervish spellbound.
>>24063947Davidasisters, our legacy is ruined! Her name will fade from history...
>>24061572Lord Loss is such a petty salty bitch.
>>24061575>just drinks a little girl to deathJesus
>>24064378>1. What do you think of the larger theme of the book – life ain’t a movie, there are no happy endings?Feels real. Even if you survive the most horrifying ordeals, you still have to go back to normal life and deal with all the bullshit there too. Somedays are good while others will be crap, and no amount of demon fighting will change that.>2. What do you think of Grubbs Character Development so far and where do you think he will go?it was nice to see him try and warn people when he saw the writing on the wall and even do the investigating to prove it, though I'm a bit disappointed he wants to hide his gift, though considering what he has gone through twice now, I can understand. Eventually he'll come to terms with it I believe like Kernal did at the end.>3. Even though a big part of it was an illusion, what do you think of the lambs, the conflict of magic vs. science and where it will go?Its going to take off eventually as there seems to be a mutual dislike/distrust between the two. The lambs will likely make some breakthroughs that give them hope and a nuance to the disciples in thinking science will prevail. I can see that happening though maybe they'll learn to play nice and work together.>4. Do you think that the book is making a larger point about horror & spectacle and ethics in entertainment or just artistic hybris?I think Darren just wanted to have a different setting that could give the readers enough doubt in if Grubbs was right or just still dealing with his inner demons. Not having Dervish backing him up either was a good way to make one wonder if the film was legit at first or if everything was sinister from the start>5. As before – what was your favourite monster design? We had a lot to pick from this time.Lord Loss keeps stealing the show, what with his horrifying appearance, his way of acting bouncing between smug and stupidly petty. He really didn't take losing to chess well at all, and that amuses me.
>>24061579Even demon masters have a love of classic literature.
>>24063919Bo, you fool!
>>24063936WHY DOES CHUDA YET LIVE
>>24063943Thank God for Juni.
>>24065696Well deserved. It's even funnier too, because the film had all the foundations of a major hit and it all went down the shitter because she was obsessed with using real demons destroying innocent lives. She could have had her legacy secured and achieved her immortality that way, but she wanted infinitely more and it cost her everything.
>>24063966I think Grubbs is forgetting that all this happened solely because they not only beat Lord Loss, but left the Vale which gave him the opportunity to put his revenge in motion. Loss will just wait until a new opportunity emerges to attack, or find a way to build a new tunnel. Unless Grubbs chooses to live as a recluse in Carcery Vale forever, he's not going to be able to avoid the Demonata.
>>24064378>1. What do you think of the larger theme of the book – life ain’t a movie, there are no happy endings?Very real, like the other anon said. It's grim and a way more messed up message than what you got from CDF, but it also fits the much bleaker tone of Demonata as a series.>2. What do you think of Grubbs Character Development so far and where do you think he will go?I think he's definitely gone from a stereotypical bratty delinquent into someone who is grievous traumatized beyond belief, but also can't help trying to save people and be a hero. He's like Darren, but far more of a mental wreck and way more reluctant to embrace his new reality.>3. Even though a big part of it was an illusion, what do you think of the lambs, the conflict of magic vs. science and where it will go?I think the Lambs are idiots for thinking there's anything remotely scientific or logical behind the Demonata. They have enough information to know that not only are they all omnicidally evil but they all emerge from a universe of pure madness and suffering. There is nothing to be found in magic that the process of science can discern, especially because it not only occurs in any major degree ONLY when demons are present (because they infect reality with it) but its power is purely subjective and often manifests entirely at random when you're in a life-or-death situation. The Lambs are messing with something nobody can truly understand and it's going to bife them in the ass.>4. Do you think that the book is making a larger point about horror & spectacle and ethics in entertainment or just artistic hybris?Maybe. But I think it's mostly Davida being crazy.>5. As before – what was your favourite monster design? We had a lot to pick from this time.Malice or the multi-headed monkey thing. Absolutely deranged designs.
>>24063979Poor Grubbs.
I didn’t enjoy this book nearly as much as the first two. I never got sucked into the plot, and I don’t think it brought too much to the table in terms of the bigger story. But I do think it ended strong. The scene of the survivors standing outside the bubble, nothing to do but watch as lord loss does anything and everything you can imagine.. and it certainly was fun to push the imagination here. A pissed off lord loss going out of his way to put on a show and keep a straight face all the while. Also Grubbs is developing nicely, he is pretty easy to root for and he is only becoming more powerful each time. I’m a bit worried about Dervish; it’s understandable that his brain is a bit scrambled after his fight in the demon realm, but he really lost it here and was neutralized easily. In fact he wasn’t just neutralized but was actively hampering his allies at times. I am hoping he pulls it back together. But if he does go back to normal soon, it seems a bit unnecessary that he go through something so unflattering and undermining to his character in this novel. Or perhaps his role as dependable guardian is coming to a close and it’s time for the young lads to step up. See you all for the next book, I kinda already read it - it’s good :)
>>24067516Dervish was in a uniquely vulnerable state of mind post-return from Lord Loss's realm. It's really unlikely Davida's spell and gambit would have worked otherwise. We even see how quickly he recovers once the demons emerge in full and he's right back to peak strength, or close enough to it that he manages to not only hold his own but successfully rally everyone and pull the rug over Lord Loss's eyes. The plan entirely hinged on making him useless to Grubbs and Bill-E so they'd lose their most experienced fighter.It's possible that had Dervish been in his right mind from the start, they could have figured things out much faster and potentially disabled the lodestone early, which would have fucked over the entire plan.
>>240643781. It's handled well. It never feels depressing for the sake of being depressing or overly dark, we were told from the very outset that any serious invasion by the Demonata will end in major casualties and that's what we got. Dervish came across as cold when he first explained the Disciples' methods but the finale showed just how important picking your battles is. Whatever comes, you take when facing the Demonata.2. I quite like Grubbs in this book despite finding him bratty in the first. He's still glib but he has a certain maturity about him, especially towards the end. Tying in with the previous question, I like that Grubbs isn't prepared to commit to the grander cause of the Disciples because he knows it'll be a horrific ordeal for the rest of his life. I also like the contrast between how he acts when it comes to saving family and the people immediately around him versus his rejection of the Disciples overall, really shows his desire to help people at odds with both his self-preservation instinct and his experience with Lord Loss.3. I foresee the Lambs doing something retarded like trying to summon and contain demons to study them, or potentially targeting Grubbs in the future if they become aware of his magical prowess; between his magic, his past experience, and his potential lycanthropy he may be some kind of missing link in the eyes of the Lambs to bridge the old science with the new.4. I don't think it was intended to be anything grander than Shan wanting to play with a shlocky horror setting, which I think plays into why a few people have said the third book almost feels like a filler episode. It did at least give a plausible excuse for demons to show up without being obvious to all involved in order to really demonstrate how Grubbs' perspective has shifted after encountering Lord Loss. Anywhere else it would've been obvious which side was wrong.5. I liked the bee demon that Juni killed. It might not have been drastically different from a regular bee but making any insect human-sized is enough to freak me out.>>24067516>it’s understandable that his brain is a bit scrambled after his fight in the demon realm, but he really lost it hereI have similar feelings regarding Dervish but I'll reserve full judgement until we return to him post-Slawter. Right now I'm content to believe that this whole episode was just a moment of weakness on his part after his mind was gone for so long. I did like how by the end of Slawter he and Grubbs have almost opposite perspectives on fighting the Demonata; Grubbs will sacrifice himself for the sake of family but not for humanity as a whole, whereas Dervish was unwilling to force Grubbs into saving Bill-E but will now press him to join the Disciples because the need is too great.
Same anon as >>24040042 here.>>24064378>1. What do you think of the larger theme of the book – life ain’t a movie, there are no happy endings?In any creative medium, textual (such as books), visual (like film) or any others, both tragedies and comedies exist. For some characters and protagonists, they have a balance between the two or experience one type more than the other. The same applies to people's lives. There are a variety of ways which the life of a person can play out. In that vein, I disagree with this notion as being universally accurate.The only thing I will say in an adjacent manner is that I not only believe but personally know is that there is more to existence than the experiences of our individual human lifespans. So with that said, there really aren't any "happy endings" because nothing truly ever ends.>2. What do you think of Grubbs Character Development so far and where do you think he will go?In comparison to Kernel from the last book, he is progressing more gradually. Both of their manners of familial loss have been different and encounters with The Demonata have been different, but comparatively, Grubbs has had the ability to find some means of closure and get patched up between major events, while Kernel had the lingering taste of dread and accepted the cards he's been dealt at a faster rate. This parallel comes from not just their own personalities, but that Grubbs' parents and sister died and witnessing the aftermath of it while Kernel's parents were directly unharmed by Demonata, yet degenerated in front of his eyes. Not to mention that Kernel lost what brought him genuine happiness, having a little brother to not feel alone anymore, all due to the revelation that Art was in fact the demon baby Artery.I can't truly state here where Grubbs may or will go from here because I've read the series before, and wish to refrain from revealing any spoilers.>3. Even though a big part of it was an illusion, what do you think of the lambs, the conflict of magic vs. science and where it will go?As OP shared in these posts from last thread >>24046499, >>24046504 & >>24046517, the discussion of Magick vs. Science is a rather interesting one. I won't delve into that at the moment though. Regarding the Lambs, they may have good intentions, yet are ill-equipped to take on the task and have a ruinous mentality of "the ends justify the means", which I don't agree with often and especially in the case of addressing the Grady family's lycanthropy.Once again, I'll refrain from spoiling anything for this question too.
>>24069250>4. Do you think that the book is making a larger point about horror & spectacle and ethics in entertainment or just artistic hybris?I think the word you may have been looking for is "hubris", meaning overly prideful. And with that in mind, I'll refer to what I observed from the Lambs and shared in my answer from the previous question. Just like them, Davida was willing to let "the ends justify the means" for the sake of making a transcendent art piece. Her own ambition and hubris fueled this pursuit, leading not only to her own demise but that if the cast and crew of Slawter. This sort of thing happens often to creative individuals, along with anyone else willing to use unjust means to achieve worldly acclaim and material possessions.>5. As before – what was your favourite monster design? We had a lot to pick from this time.The demon guarding the Lodestone is what stood out to me the most this go around.
>>24065386>>24065423>>24065696>>24065909>>24065909Its even funnier today, since the "MUH PRACTICAL EFFECTS" Crowd wasn't as big of a thing back then - today it is kinda funny, maybe Davida is just a /tv/girl. >>24065395>>24065731It is kinda funny, how petty and autistic he is. Actually, I couldn't tell between him and Mr. Tiny who appears to be a demon of some kind - though I still like the idea of him beeing just some a scharlatan who does all his "magic" by importing future tech or other time travel nonsense for larping as fate.>>24065861Atleast he does read, unlike Desmond.>>24065786As noted before, its interesting how this still is YA Stuff. It is propably the violent YA Series I know - Skullduggery Pleasant could go hard, but I don't think there were ever children on the chopping block.
>>24065449>>24065479Indeed. Even in death, may they be triumphant. Shan seems to have a certain appreciation for existentialist vs. fatalist themes. I am sure there is a nietzschean reading of Cirque du Freak. Though I still think, that fatalist vampires are a fun spin, though it is a bit weird, that there aren't more vamps that don't buy into it. I would just try to become some awesome chronicler with a potentially millenial lifespan.>>24065676>>24065893>>24065899Indeed. I hope she and Dervish become an item.>>24067021I wonder what his inevitable meeting with Kernel will be like.
>>24065787>>24065957>Feels real. Even if you survive the most horrifying ordeals, you still have to go back to normal life and deal with all the bullshit there too. Somedays are good while others will be crap, and no amount of demon fighting will change that.>Very real, like the other anon said. It's grim and a way more messed up message than what you got from CDF, but it also fits the much bleaker tone of Demonata as a series.Good points. Now that I think of it, the violence is one thing, but those subtext might be even more “adult” for YA series atleast – once again, I couldn’t think of one that is really similar to Shans Works in this regard. I wonder how the reception differs between young and old readers on this detail.>>24068226>1. It's handled well. It never feels depressing for the sake of being depressing or overly dark, we were told from the very outset that any serious invasion by the Demonata will end in major casualties and that's what we got. Dervish came across as cold when he first explained the Disciples' methods but the finale showed just how important picking your battles is. Whatever comes, you take when facing the Demonata.Interesting - on the other hand, while Darren made some hard choices, there weren’t usually that utilitarian in nature, apart from Kurdas master plan, for example. I guess the biggest difference is, that while Darren mostly had concrete goals, the Demonata Lads so far are more in “Just Survive” mode now.>>24069250Ah, good to see you again.>I disagree with this notion as being universally accurate. The only thing I will say in an adjacent manner is that I not only believe but personally know is that there is more to existence than the experiences of our individual human lifespans. So with that said, there really aren't any "happy endings" because nothing truly ever ends.Are you speaking philosophically or by faith? Nonetheless, wise words, it is never truly over, Life goes on, for good and for bad – so just the same, there really aren’t any “bad endings” you could say.
>>24065787I agree on 2., and as >>24065957 and >>24068226 point out, he is all the reason and right to reject dervish for now. With all the fun stuff with dervish, you kinda forgot the less fun reason for why is there or his nightmarish stay in the mental ward. I do wonder, how, especially with time fuckery, Kernels and or Grubbs Version of this moment will be like. Arai killed it with the eyes in this one.>>24069250Good Point on 2. As said, It will be interesting to see how they meet up. >>24065787>>24065957>>24069250It is likely that he didn't think about it, atleast not in the sense of a moral argument - the closest we got was Darrens Father letting him and Steve watch the "Good Old Classic Horror Movies" but not this "new shit" I believe the wording was - which I would agree a bit with. I grew up thinking Texas Chainsaw Massacre was this insanely violent gory movie, but having watched it for the first time recently, its rather tame by todays standarts. >>24069250Forgive my spelling errors - a shame since I even took classic greek as a course. Honestly, it could have hit a bit harder, if they gave her a bit more time with Grubbs, perhaps a moment of vulnerability or two. Also I have to agree, the lodestone demon I atleast imagined most vividly.
>>24065787>>24068226True - I think it will mostly come down to Grubbs or Dervish beeing able to communicate with them.>>24065957That is an interesting theory - as said before >>24046517, Shan tends to blend his types of supernatural horror together a bit.>>24069250>As OP shared in these posts from last thread >>24046499 , >>24046504 & >>24046517 , the discussion of Magick vs. Science is a rather interesting one. I won't delve into that at the moment though. I see - in that case, I will note it down, to keep in the back of my head, as this series progresses further.
>>24069717> I guess the biggest difference is, that while Darren mostly had concrete goals, the Demonata Lads so far are more in “Just Survive” mode now.The biggest difference is that Darren had literal months to get used to life as a half-vampire and years to get used to life as a Prince in Vampire Mountain. Grubbs and Kernel have had nowhere near the same period to adapt, because the threats they've been facing have been far more immediately dangerous and they didn't have someone like Larten from the very start to calmly guide them through everything. Even worse that Grubbs got put in a mental institution for a really long time which has clearly left its scars on him. Darren's goals went from "kill Crepsley out of revenge" to "protect my adopted father and my people from total genocide/Tiny's machinations", whereas Kernel and Grubbs have only become part of the war against the Demonata by lacking any other reason to live and sheer necessity respectively.I guarantee you that near-beginning-of-series/early Cirque Darren probably would have adopted a similar mindset to them if he was facing Lord Loss and the Demonata instead. Ironically though, I can picture post-Vampire Mountain Darren as somewhat similar to Dervish in mindset.
>>24069717>Are you speaking philosophically or by faith?Both, along with having plenty of experiences throughout my life that confirm that there is never a true end. In using 4chan board terms, I've had my fair share of /x/ or Paranormal instances. Hence why a series like The Demonata was right up my alley back when I read it as a teenager and still is to this day.
