I went to the local bookstore and tried to find an older translation of the Odyssey and couldn't find one. They only stocked the Wilson "translation" aka rewriting of the greatest poem ever written to fit modern Marxist ideology. And we are not allowed to say anything. They are not just complaining about the "dead white men", they are going back and changing what they said, so even if we go to the Canon, we cannot escape their heinous ideology. This is just the start, soon this will happen to the Bible.
>>24088435Private collections saved what little we and antiquity had of the Library of Alexandria-- books are tools, and men of letters are obliged to have servicieable personal libraries such that The Enemies' darkest fantasies of systematic AI bowdlerization and intellectual benightment can never come to pass.
>>24088435>aka rewriting>fitting modern Marxist ideologydid you even bother to check the Greek on Perseus or some other website before sperging here about non-existing problems? Because that's pretty much what the text says, political commentary or not.>οὐ γὰρ ξείνους οἵδε μάλ᾽ ἀνθρώπους ἀνέχονται,>οὐδ᾽ ἀγαπαζόμενοι φιλέουσ᾽ ὅς κ᾽ ἄλλοθεν ἔλθῃ.>νηυσὶ θοῇσιν τοί γε πεποιθότες ὠκείῃσι>λαῖτμα μέγ᾽ ἐκπερόωσιν, ἐπεί σφισι δῶκ᾽ ἐνοσίχθων:>τῶν νέες ὠκεῖαι ὡς εἰ πτερὸν ἠὲ νόημα.Here's an older translation, from Perseus again:>But turn not thine eyes upon any man nor question any, for the men here endure not stranger-folk, nor do they give kindly welcome to him who comes from another land. They, indeed, trusting in the speed of their swift ships, cross over the great gulf of the sea, for this the Earth-shaker has granted them; and their ships are swift as a bird on the wing or as a thought.Does this sound so different to your ear to justify yet another fucking thread where you whine about women translating Homer? I also don't like Emily Wilson but you guys need to stop sperging. You can find both the original Greek and free older translations online and yet you pile threads upon threads attacking some imaginary enemy. I understand being born an idiot is difficult, but why do you have to make a spectacle about it?
>>24088435if you want the older translations you can find them online. try project gutenberg.
>>24088473>Does this sound so different to your ear to justify yet another fucking thread where you whine about women translating Homer?Yes, unironically. Fagles is better than both though.
>>24088473>reddit spacingGo back
>>24088505The absolute state of the "literature" board such that properly formatting a large post to be more legible is considered "reddit spacing".
>>24088473This. Wilson's translation sucks because she consistently chooses the simplest, coarsest, least poetic possible wording to represent the text; NOT because the translation is inaccurate or Marxist (lol) "has an agenda". The vast majority of her lines correspond more or less entirely literally to the original Greek.
>>24088473Unironically the greatest problems with the translation aren't political (well, maybe a little) but in how shit the prose is. It's feeble and flat. Like it was written by a 12 year old for 6 year olds. Just look at the difference in these two lines:>But turn not thine eyes upon any man nor question any,vs>Do not look at people, and ask no questions.And the periods, good God. Every line a sentence. That's not how you do poetry unless you're an idiot.
>>24088514Contrarian faggotry is what it is.
>>24088527>That's not how you do poetry unless you're an idiot. Well, she's certainly proven herself thus. She puts more stock into shoehorning modern political allegory and butchering the prose than into preserving the lyricism and flow of the work, or preserving its artistic integrity. Modern literature is dead and white women killed it.
>>24088521She has an agenda
>>24088473Nowhere in the Greek does it say ‘although they like to cross the sea themselves.’ This is a deliberate ‘comment’ on debates about immigration in the west today, an interpolation - not a translation, even a loose one. If you could read the Greek you could see that.
>>24088576What's her agenda here, exactly? Being cringe? And how is it "Marxist", anyway? I sincerely doubt you know or even care that Marx and Engels were both educated in the classics (they both knew Latin and Ancient Greek, as educated men of the time did, and undoubtedly read Homer in the original verse.) Or that the Bolshevik revolutionaries, as a rule, loved classical Russian literature and frequently took their pen names from characters of classic Russian novels.The academic and intellectual forces who are presently devaluing and vandalizing the Western canon are not Marxists. Most of them have no coherent political ideology to speak of other than general racial and gender grievances.
>>24088584Marxist hands typed this post.
>>24088581Literally changing the text and we're supposed to believe Homer wrote it. It is fucking disgusting, especially in support of such an evil policy that caused so much death and horror and evil. Makes sense that one of her tattoos is a pentagram.
>>24088595If you're going to present yourself as a defender of the Western canon, it's probably a good idea to stop being illiterate and actually READ the works you're "defending". Not that Homer needs your help. The Iliad and Odyssey have survived for thousands of years and they will survive for thousands more. Emily Wilson, no matter how annoying she is, is not a credible threat to these poems' existence, which you would realize if you weren't retarded and illiterate.
>>24088435This kind of shit is why we need a new Hitler.
>>24088597>>24088603Note how the neo-Nazi is incapable of actually engaging with the arguments of the people in this thread or intellectually defending his accusations. This is because forming good, solid arguments requires both a triple-digit IQ AND having read books more sophisticated than The Turner Diaries; neither of which being qualities that neo-Nazis are known for.
>>24088600>Gets called a Marxist>Proceeds to sperg out and go on a schizo rant You okay dude?
>>24088435>I went to the local bookstore and tried to find an older translation of the Odyssey and couldn't find one.Learn to use a fucking library, and moreover, learn to use good quality second hand bookstores.Fucksake you're an awful reader.>Marxist ideologyMy chief problem as a Marxist with the one supplied paragraph, apart from the poor quality of your trolling, is that this is non-radical bourgeois liberalism. The centring of the individual subject…. Read early Lukacs.
>>24088611What on Earth gave you the impression that I was trying to hide that I was a Marxist? Did my unambiguous defense of Marx, Engels, and the Bolsheviks tip you off? You're very sharp anon; nothing gets past your keen eye, does it?
>>24088617Now you're just obfuscating your stupid little rant. Run along now little Engels.
>>24088619>obfuscatingOk, since I'm apparently dealing with someone who has a severe learning disability, let me try to clear things up: I'm a Marxist. I objected to your characterization of Emily Wilson and other academics like her as "Marxists", because they are, in fact, not Marxists. I contrasted Emily Wilson and her ilk with actual historical Marxists, who almost unanimously had a favorable view of the Western canon completely out of lockstep with the idea of it being the obsolete product of "old white dudes".There. Is that simple enough for you or should I try to go down to a second grade level for you?
>>24088597Half of the Homeric audience had cunts, and Homeric composition relied on collective audience reception for permutation and development. Odyssey is a text about minge basting itself with the hottest, smartest, dirtiest cock of all the Achaeans. It is magical vampire romance porn for bronze age collapse greek cunts.And you're whinging that some pommy bint wanted to wipe her moist slit over a text about making mummy pregnant? You do realise the age gap between Noname Cock and his wife?
>>24088623Yes, I understand you are a Marxist, that is glaringly obvious. I am mocking you for it. Secondly, I was not the one who called Emily Wilson and other academics Marxists. Seeing as I too am dealing with someone with equally as much of a learning disability, let me be as plain as the day I can be: I am mocking you, I am teasing you, I am being a little shit because you are a Marxist and your defence and umbrage of Emily Watson being called a Marxist is hilarious. Do yo understand now? I am mocking you for following the ideology of a Jewish NEET.
>>24088623If Marxists like the Western Canon so much, why do they spend all their time trying to destroy it? And replace it with their own canon, of Marxist literature? Shakespeare was banned in the USSR and you expect me to believe Marxists want to preserve the Canon? They are degenerate scumbags who know nothing except destruction. They are the descendants of those who burned Alexandria. We will root them out, we will send them to the brick walls.
>>24088435I went to a bookshop the other day and they didnt even have fagles. what the fuck is going on
>>24088631Okay, fine. I thought you were the OP because you're both retarded and retarded people type remarkably similar to each other.>>24088632>why do they spend all their time trying to destroy it? The simple answer: They don't. >Shakespeare was banned in the USSRThis is incorrect. There was a brief period under Stalin where Hamlet was not publicly performed because Stalin was an aggressive philistine, but under Lenin and the early Bolshevik administration the number of Shakespeare printings and performances dramatically increased. In any case, even Stalin was quite conservative in his tastes and loved classical Russian authors like Pushkin, Gogol, Chekov, etc. All of whom are firmly established members of the Canon at this point.
>>24088641No one cares troon. The point of this thread is woman hatred. Quit bringing actual political history into it. Applies to the other guy as well but I’m too lazy to scroll up and tag.
>>24088660Hating her because she's a woman translating an epic poem about women fucking chad is pretty pathetic. Hate her because she's into Twilight Sparkle.
>rightoids demonstrate they don't actually read books, let alone even understand the western culture they romanticizeIMAGINEMYSHOCK
>>24088670How is that pathetic? Women should not be educated since they can only make a mockery of anything greater than dish washing and folding clothes.
>>24088695>since they can only make a mockery of anything greater than dish washing and folding clothes.What do you think Circe, the Sirens, Calypso and Penelope do? Precisely that. READ THE FUCKING TEXT. Women's fantasy is to be abused and used as meat and labour. They just don't want you to do it because you lack the craft of Odysseus. You couldn't make cunt wet if it were in the ocean.
>>24088698>Circe, the Sirens, CalypsoNone of these are women. Divinities don’t count.>Penelope, NausicaaAre chaste.
Why do people on the left constantly misconstrue things like this? On any topic of discussion they use the same tactics. On St George's day here in the UK, they'll bring up the fact that St George was 'Turkish' as a way to dunk on the right. They'll even claim that Cheddar Man was a black man, and therefore that black people have been living on the Isles for thousands of years.
>>24088706>WhyThe answer is so flagrantly obvious that I'm mystified you're even asking>Gee why would weak and spiteful mongrels want to twist and deface a classical glorification of male virtues?
>>24088435My classics courses just use Peter Green's translation and for most other sources just use old Loebs since they are usually the only translation or whatever Oxford/Cambridge translation exists.Also Wilson's translation is just the ESL translation. It's like it was translated for retards to read.
>>24088641Don't even bother, anon. The people you're reply to are complete ignoramuses.
>>24088581This is the most nefarious part.
>>24088435>>24088473The real crime is the tediousness. Making the epic un-epic.>not too keen>they know their ships go very fastToddler babble. And you know she tortured the reader with child-retard in a deliberate attempt to voice the child-Athena as child(-retard). Give the parthenos an epic voice, or at least something of literary merit and interest to the reader.The asinine moral equivalence of divine naval prowess with immigration policy to bait the chuds and catnip the shitlibs shows the target audience: making genre fiction of epic for genre fiction readers. No need for chud-philistinism about Marxism to explain it, if anything it's a free-market perversion: dumb down the classics so they become sellable to dumb shitlib women. Homeric equivalent of retard-Shakespeare they sell to dumb parents of dumb schoolkids. Homer must meet the audience at their level to become content to sell and consume (and be discarded), not culture from above to cultivate and perfect the reader.
>>24088476>Paper? Oh no no no no! That's too problematic! Don't you see the ecologic damage you are creating? You vill read pdfs in a screen and you vill be happy. Now dear, keep looking at the screen, and keep scrolling. Scrolloo Scrollaa~ Scrolly Scrollu~ Scrolliridoo Scrolliridaa~
>>24088473neck yourself you stupid contrarian faggot. you'd have to be unbelievably retarded or dishonest if you can't see the obvious distortion of tone. there is no judgment about "xenophobic hypocrisy" in the original Homer. a thousand curses upon your bloodline for your insolence.
>>24088505hey newfag, that's not what redditspacing is.
>>24088435I'm not defending their behavior.But do people even go to physical bookstores anymore? In my country, book sales are pretty much all online.Access to books now is much easier. 20 years ago, I wouldn't be able to find Neothomist manuals, unless I learned Latin. Right now I can find them easily.
>>24088435Anyone who goes to university to study anything other than a stem or engineering job is literally retarded. Why would you pay 9k a year to read books or make art? It's such cope, and unironically (as an artist myself) art degrees should be abolished.
>>24088435This thread proves that western politics is retarded.
>>24088563Newfag thinks he can behavs how /b/ used to behave
>>24088435This is the equivalent of being mad that a bully defends himself when you attack him. Because imperialism happened, that means the UK should just let themselves be destroyed. What an insane ideology.
>>24088584Yes. We know they aren't, but they used Marxism, but replaced the classes with races.
>>24088584>they can't be Marxists because they're doing things I don't agree withHm...
>>24088706Evil demented psychos who want to destroy everything. They will drag everyone down instead of gifting all their possessions to the less fortunate.
I’m a newfag to reading what are the best translations for the odyssey and the Iliad? Also shit like beowulf and Dante’s inferno
>>24088514>>24088563>>24089112>>24089177>that's not what reddit spacing is>you're the newfagCan these zoomers just kill themselves?
>>24088463You can’t even read homeric greek
>>24089284Pope is the nicest to read, but inaccurate. Fagles is generally considered the best.I like Mandelbaum for Dante.
>Mr. Foreigner what the fuck
>>24089339Neither can you, pleb
>>24088792Shakespeare is so kinoI was simply not able to appreciate the work in secondary school
>>24088435Just read an online pdf. Or visit an old book book-store. But keep in mind that libshottism is the disease of all degenerate civilizations, so there's no reason to believe that the 'originals' we have are sfw re-edited classical athens 'woke' versions of the original.
>>24089326neck yourself Gen A underage v&
>>24088527>>But turn not thine eyes upon any man nor question any,>vs>>Do not look at people, and ask no questions.Is this real? Those two lines have completely different meanings.
We should talk more about how Caroline Alexander was the first woman to translate the Iliad and the Odyssey. I think I will read her. For those who can read Greek, how close to the original would you say hers is?
accessibility is good
>>24088719Peter Green translations are very good. Worst thing about Wilson is that her identity grift was published so soon after his and overshadows it in conversation.
>>24088514He’s just a newfag and wrong. The reddit spacing meme stemmed from a particular formatting quirk and then became any formatting whatsoever because there are too many retarded immigrants here.
>>24088632Xi Jinping has a book list on Chinese state media which includes an entire section on Shakespeare's plays, as well as recommendations for Faust, Hemingway, Jack London, Rousseau, and Plato. The other anon is right, Marxism isn't inherently opposed to the canon. I feel like, deep down, you even know this, it's just that the red scare tactics of pretending communists lurk behind every corner is too appealing of an aesthetic to give up.
>>24088581Add this to the OP image next time to head off the concern trolls.
>>24088435>soon this will happen to the Bible.>soonare you aware how many times has the bible been retranslated and interpreted to push a narrative?
>>24090215china isn't communist it's more fascist nmow
>>24090262I’m not the OP.
>>24088609It’s annoying, for me at least, but in a broad way understandable, that any type of dissent against or frustration with this modern neutered politically-correct socially-progressive entire atmosphere of ideologies is lumped in as being solely from “the alt-right” or outright neo-Nazis. I hate being smeared by association with them. I’m not a dumb enough ideologue that I’m literally a neo-Nazi or Hitler-worshipper, but I can still have my grievances with Woke crap.Both examples from Wilson’s text, as well as, funnily enough, even examples from videos of her readings, discussions, lectures, Q&As etc. in an academic environment, besides social media statements of hers, showed her from the start (to my eyes) as a woman who wants to cut down “manly men” a notch, who has some palpable resentment in her and a sort of joy in psychologically emasculating and mangling parts of Homer’s work. The cutesy horse names. Odysseus in the first line being reduced to “a complicated man.” Athena addressing him cutely as “Mr. Foreigner.” Things like that. I feel like if she could snidely suggest that Odysseus had a small cock, but in a way with plausible deniability because it was somehow close enough in literal meaning to the original Greek text and only implied as subtext, she’d probably do that.
>>24088435You think Victorian translators didn't distort the Greeks in their own ways? The acceptable reigning ideology of Victorian Britain was plenty different from that of Ancient Greece in its own ways.
>>24088576The names in Greek do have transparent meanings.
>>24088597Every translation is changing the text. You cannot actually say the same thing in a different language.
>>24088632>Shakespeare was banned in the USSRMy alma mater's library (in the US) literally has several volumes of Shakespeare in Russian translation that were published in the USSR.
>>24090467I'm not lumping anyone in with neo-Nazis, the people I was replying to were quite clearly and categorically neo-Nazis. One was calling Wilson a Satanic Marxist (lol) and the other openly said he wants another Hitler.I dislike Wilson's translation myself and I agree she appears at least partly motivated by petty, braindead gender grievances. I imagine she probably does enjoy The Odyssey on some real level or I can't believe she'd devote so much time to studying it, but that's not mutually exclusive with her also having the infantile liberal academic compulsion to "correct" the "problematic" elements of historical artistic productions, which, no matter the intentions, always boils down to cultural vandalism
>>24090505True.Now, would you said the translation in question is the closest one can get to the original through the lens of the English language?
>>24088695And yet you claim to defend the legacy of the Greeks, who called Sappho the tenth muse.
>>24090505>Every translation is changing the text, (I am a collosal fag) >You cannot actually say the same thing in a different language. (I love dicks in my mouth)Excuse me while I translate your post
>>24088792Such cribs/glosses of Shakespeare are at least presented alongside the original. It's clear that they're intended as an aid to help understand the original (which is in places opaque even to an educated modern reader) rather than something to stand on their own.
>>24089284Beowulf was written in English.
>>24088603They hated him because he told the truth
>>24089658How do you figure? "Turning your eye on someone" is a poetic way of saying "looking at someone", and questions are generally asked of people (as opposed to, say, cows). So both boil down to a basic meaning of "don't look at people, and don't ask people questions".
>>24090521Probably not, though I'd emphasize that there is no single "closest one can get", translation is a series of compromises. But a lot of translation discourse on 4chan seems to assume there's a simplistic "right answer".
>>24090550The most obvious gaff in the context is that "question" here means defy, cross or contradict.
>>24090532Not an argument.
>>24090556The answer is simple, but it's by no means "easy">Understand the meaning the author intended, and try to convey the exact same meaning through another language
>>24089343I can't read Greek, but one of the old school English translations has it as "Sir Stranger", so "Mr. Foreigner" doesn't look like a particularly egregious rendering, even though it sounds stupid.
>>24090568Sure, but there's a lot of different competing pressures is my point. Every possible rendering loses something, but they lose different things.
>>24090566>Not an argument (My mother never loved me and now I suck cocks)Please understand, translation inherently changes the meaning of the original, it's absolutely unavoidable and cannot be minimized.
>>24090575I didn't say that all translations are equally faithful. But every possible translation is a compromise. You cannot get anywhere useful if you assume there is a single "right answer" as so much 4chan translation discourse seems to. (In other words, I think there are valid criticisms to be made of Wilson's work, but the approach from which you're criticizing it is stupid.)
>>24090582There is a right answer, but it's an ideal. It cannot be reached, only approached.
>>24090582Wilson made a compromise that didn't have to made. Nobody asked for her opinion on political commentary that will likely not last the test of time. Like another anon put it, it was vandalism towards the original art.
>>24090544not in English I can comprehend >Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,>þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,>hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
>>24090613not my fault you can only understand post-frog english
>>24090604As in there's some theoretical sequence of words that would be the perfect translation but no human can actually produce it? Or as in it's a purely conceptual thing?
>>24090613Just read a ton gradually working your way backwards in time so you can gradually get used to it.
>>24090582If I could fully contain in my mind the person that was Homer, the entirety of the English and Greek languages and the Original Greek rendition of the Oddisey, If I was too a great writer who subsumed these elements in their entirety, and had the mental capacity to remove myself as an agent in the writing and merely a conduit of the aforementioned constructs, I would generate the closest possible translation of the work from one language to another.That is the right answer.
>>24090606Her even worst and more horrid compromise was entirely butchering the language to 6th grader levels, what the fuck.
>>24088435Can universities be saved from politically correct trash or will people have to continue to look at alternatives?
>>24088435>muh bible is nextIssac Newton found intentional translation problems in the 1600s. Compare the new translations to older ones (all easily found on the internet). The new stuff is completely pozzed.
To faithfully translate a book, the translator must be a greater writer than the original author.Therefore, the greatest works of art are untranslatable
>>24090633And yet what you'd produce under those circumstances is not the same as what another person under the same circumstances would produce, because English and Greek are different languages.
>>24090499they do but "sparkle" is an intentionally bad translation, chosen because of incongruous connotations of the english word that wilson thought were funny. the rest of the names are fine.i disagree with that poster that it's indicative of an "agenda", i think it's just pathological aversion to seriousness.
>>24088435>>24088473this is another example not so much, as the second poster correctly says, of her changing the text, but as the OP remarks, of wording it in such a way as to reach a certain ear for politicized/social reasonsin another thread I remarked how she took the χειρὶ παχείῃ line in the book about the contest with the bow and went out her way to interpret it specifically as being a remark on Penelope's body as well while there wasn't any such implication, but she know what she is doing, she isn't changing the text but reading it with obviously a certain mindseteven regardless of the Greek though, there should be a more simple observation to be made: someone can like traveling the seas e.g as a merchant without the implication of being a colonizer, the Phoenicians for example were such people
>>24090686>And yet what you'd produce under those circumstances is not the same as what another person under the same circumstances would produce,>and had the mental capacity to remove myself as an agent in the writing and merely a conduit of the aforementioned constructs.If the circumstances were the same, they should.
>>24090688There is an agenda.
>>24090692My point is that even if you weren't exercising agency you'd still inevitably be using your own brain hardware which is shaped by your life circumstances. And more to the point, even if Homer himself came back to life and spent years learning English to a native level, his translation would at least be the most representative of authorial intent (insofar as he's the same man now as he was when he composed it), but it would still be full of compromises because, again, Greek and English are different languages. For a given Greek word or grammatical construction, there is no English equivalent that has the exact same set of connotations and resonances, not to mention that since the Odyssey is poetry the sonic and rhythmic effect of the words is a major part of it. (And this is assuming for the sake of argument that Homer was a single individual.)
>>24090703>And this is assuming for the sake of argument that Homer was a single individualPeople who pushed the "Homer were actually multiple people" theory should have been punched in the mouth.(Not that Anon, by the way)
>>24090711Why do you say that?
>>24090711That's literally the overwhelming historical scholarly consensus. People who continue to cling to the idea that Homer was a single person are delusional.
>>24088435>rewriting of the greatest poem ever written to fit modern Marxist ideologyLiberalism. You're talking about liberalism.
>to translate between languages you must compromiseTherefore >The more compromises you make the better the translation will be.Q.E.D
>>24090718>>24090716For over 2,500 years no one doubted Homer was a guy who created the poems. Then, without any kind of new external evidence the people closer in time had pretend they know better and that "akshually, it was a community work"
>>24090732Yup.Since perfect is hard/impossible, it is totally fine to infuse your ideology which would be completely alien to the original author.
>>24090467And liberals are huge proponents of eugenics. They just don't realize it.
>>24090733That reasoning is very dumb, anon. Saying that modern historians know less about the Greeks than ancient historians who were several centuries removed from Homer's supposed lifetime because more time has passed ignores that>a. there are more historians studying this period than at any time in human history and they can pool their research together>b. a modern historian likely has access to every relevant known extant record of Homer, which is not true for historians working hundreds or thousands of years ago>c. new advances in textual analysis are able to shed light on the consistency (or lack thereof) between the two Homeric epics that ancient historians would not have been able to discern
>>24088505Not what reddit spacing is, back to whatever the fuck you came out of>>24089326You're still wrong and still gay
>>24090752>there are more historians studying this period than at any time in human historyAcademia does not put out historians. For one, they don't use the typologies of historical methods, and for two, they generate narrative-only responses. Even worse is the leaping interpolations they're universally willing to make. There hasn't been a good popular historian in nearly three decades (in the west).>can pool their research togetherThis hardly happens in practice. Presiding doctors don't spend a lick of time cultivating their students. They're mostly overworked and underperforming in their own research.>a modern historian likely has access to every relevant known extant record of Homer, which is not true for historians working hundreds or thousands of years agoPrecisely the reverse. We still have untranslated works from the Greco-Roman period and you're assuming nothing has been lost between then and now. If you knew the first thing about Greek history, it would be how many fragments or lost works are mentioned that we have scant little hope of ever recovering. And sources like Strabo when he argues against Troy being in Turkey and then citing other historians is just outright ignored entirely by university involved researchers. >new advances in textual analysisI'm not even sure what you mean exactly. Textual analysis is not new. A typical reader would have look at that and call it common sense.
>>24090776Ok, you got me. I've never read Homer and I don't know anything about the Homeric question. I just like arguing about unfamiliar topics and seeing how far I can get.
>>24090444Does it matter? Whatever I did it myself.
>>24090801It was a pretty good shot, all told. It made me dump post lol
>>24088435I'm inspired by her work and wish to do the same for another work. What do you anons suggest?
>>24090776>Academia does not put out historians. For one, they don't use the typologies of historical methods, and for two, they generate narrative-only responses. Even worse is the leaping interpolations they're universally willing to make. There hasn't been a good popular historian in nearly three decades (in the west).Not that anon, but I'd appreciate if you could expand on what you mean by this. What do you mean by typologies of historical methods? Isn't a narrative a typology? It sounds like you're describing AI output lol.
>>24090833>What do you mean by typologies of historical methods? Isn't a narrative a typology?Exactly right, but it's only the final stage. Modern pseudo-historians will put introduce a claim without facts or evidence and then use that claim to support a preconceived narrative without developing anything new. If you look at the sources of academic papers, being generous with language here by calling it academic, the source list is very often only serving to replicate the claims or narratives in the chain of investigation. Claims are not evidence, nor necessarily fact producing. So the usual chain would go:Evidence -> Facts -> Interpretations -> NarrativeA good paper should not even have to introduce narrative until the conclusion, and hardly then. If the interpretations are tightly bound to a large number of produced facts on verified evidence then a natural narrative organically emerges. Instead, modern historians start with a narrative and interpolate by making leaps of logic, bias/preference spamming, or engaging in fallacies (usually popularity and authority).
>>24090833>>24090845I've seen an instructor (masters, no doctorate) fail papers for not hammering the narrative and emphasizing primary sources for evidence collection. The papers he graded highest were those that basically agreed with his political points. He must have realized this was the case later on because he was not grading that way out of the blue, I think to settle what just happened. Facts for his class were optional- you could insert someone's claims and that would suffice. Interpretations were purely speculation, but if they were narratively consistent that was fine. There was one project where the USSR was the point of discussion, specifically the Stalinist period. The papers that used claims of regime abuse were used as inserts for facts and sufficient evidence. These were mostly word-of-mouth stories. The papers that included those features, often secondary sources without primaries, were considered sufficient for an A because it promoted a "solid narrative structure" in his words, in other words they said the thing he wanted them to say and people repeating them is enough to satisfy evidence. If you added speculation about Stalin personally being deficient or having some psych-complex, that was considered seasoning. I was in a huge anti-Marxist phase, but even then looking at what passed and what did not made it obvious that this particular class is not worth the time or money. It certainly did not turn out better historians.
>>24090859One of the biggest problems about modern historians is that they pretend to have the air of meddling into the history of the ancients. I must only point out that Polybius himself states how he couldn't go too much into an event that happened 300 years prior to his, because the Latin the sources on it were written in had become incomprehensible to the Romans of his time (yes, apparently that's how fast language changed in antiquity).Polybius wrote about events happening during his life time. A real historian participates in the events that happen during his days to give accurate accounts and later they may become historians depending on the quality of their sources.Now those sources are made by highly biased news corporations and historians wait 20 years before looking at the information. Just in time for the intelligence agencies to copy and edit everything at their disposal. And ancient history is obviously entirely rewritten, like the tranny historians of our days even know shit, to better fit modern biases and fashion.
>>24090733Read Vico sweetie. Ancients backprojected all inherited knowledge onto mythopoetic personages: Hermes for magic, Solon for laws, poetry to Homer, etc.
>>24090538>stand on their ownOf course they're intended to stand on their own. They're not explanatory margins or footnotes, the script is entirely rewritten and can be read end-to-end without ever consulting the obverse original. 'No Fear' may have pedological intent, but much Shakespeare material is simple rewriting to provide dumbed down content for consumption. Wilson is doing the same for the female genre fiction audience with Homer.
>>24088603Agreed. We need to put a stop to the rot.
>>24088473She literally inserted an entire line that isn’t in the original
>>24088505Not Reddit spacing.This is.>>24088514That’s the whole point of the Reddit spacing critique. We want things to be readable.
>>24091178It's fucking disgusting is what it is. They're literally teaching a translation with extra stuff not written by Homer. And no one is allowed to do anything about it. They are trying to destroy Western Civilization before our eyes. We need to rise up right now - right fucking now, and let our roars be heard.Rise, rise, rise and rage,turn again history's page,seek the empire brave and strong,praising Rome is not wrong.
>>24091210Just read Lattimore you fucking sperg. Or, if you're going to bitch and moan so much, learn Homeric Greek and then you'll never again have to worry about trusting translators' judgement.
>>24091223I will. I will read it in the original language, and see for myself what the decadent West is trying to hide from us. I will be the new Petrarch.00YH
I hate life
>>24090691I agree with you, but the Phoenicians did have colonies my man, e.g. Carthage.
>>24090776You are a retarded pseud lad. Your argument about Strabo is especially retarded - I suppose you think that by not taking Geoffrey ot Monmouth’s account of British history seriously, historians are missing a trick.
>>24091434They are, the bones of the giants that ruled Britain have been found and dated to the time he said they were knocking about.
>>24091442No they haven’t you absolute cretin.
>>24088473Have you considered castrating yourself for the good of mankind?
>>24091453Yeah they have. They were found in Cheddar Gorge.
>>24088704>He fucks mortal women.
>>24088435ironically this translation has far stricter meter than every other translation I've ever seen, so you'd think the braindead chuds on /lit/ who think that poetry without rime or strict meter is LE BAD would at least credit it on that account
>>24089284>I’m a newfag to reading what are the best translations for the odyssey and the Iliad?Ancient Greek.
>>24091580AKA mentally translating it to your native language on the fly
>>24090701Her agenda is ponies
>>24090776>There hasn't been a good popular historian in nearly three decades (in the west).When did CLR James die?
>>24090845>Evidence -> Facts -> Interpretations -> NarrativeFacts don't exist in history. Read von Ranke or the British first historians of the early 19th century.
>>24090859>masters, no doctorateHD papers ought to demonstrate either theoretical or historiographical power. Narrative is for MFAs. The problem with using primary sources in Masters grade work is that unless they're critically illustrative of a point in a theoretical or historiographical debate they're a board resting on a pivot point. What you really want is dense archival work. But that instructor, or in my system "tutor," wouldn't know about archival work because they didn't have a doctorate. Normally when I cite primary sources, I cite by _metres_ of archive for a two sentence claim.
>>24091512Citation needed
>>24091595Great bait.
>>24091595‘Dense archival work’ for the Greek ‘Dark Age’. Lol. Lmao, even.
>>24090801Kek a true /lit/izen
>>24088473That sounds so much better, and isn't very hard to read.Also this new translation frames it as if its calling out some hypocrisy, whereas this one doesn't.
>OLD=GOOD>NEW=BADEvery board talks like my 90-year-old grandpa these days.
>>24091210>praising Rome is not wrongIf only you knew how bad things really are.
>>24091578I feel like Wilson's translation has the possibility to be a cutesy introduction to the Odyssey for children without losing too much fidelity. A few better word changes here, excise a few stupid moral and political commentaries there, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy it for a precocious tween.
>>24091586her agenda is doing what all other women are doing - which is to say, what public policy makers have indoctrinated women to all believe what other women are doing. If calling a horse "sparkle" wasn't considered cute, but was instead considered inflammatory, she wouldn't dare.
How much energy will /lit/ waste discussing this translation. You guys have seriously got to learn to just ignore this stuff. There will always be grifters latching onto the classics for easy money. That's all this is. And it's not the standard translation in universities lol. It's all still Lattimore, Fagles, and Green.
>>24092395It's taking over at an astounding rate. Like other people have pointed out, it's harder to find even something like Fagles in brick-and-mortar stores because they're being replaced by Wilson. Common online """wisdom""" is Wilson>Fagles (because of ideological capture). Universities will cave into the demand spare a few holdouts, and those holdouts will be seen as crypto-fascists until they're driven out. This is part and parcel of the times. Fagles, Lattimore, and et al. will become the reserve of an idiosyncratic few, and the entire humanities world will suffer as a result. Show me where this trend is wrong in a world where nearly every "slippery slope fallacy" prediction (a mere informal fallacy, btw) has proven to be prescient. You can't.
>>24088581>>24091178This. Those other retards have no reading comprehension.
>>24091178Homer was actually a 21st century lesbian phd tho
>>24092454Its hard to find anything other than slop written for women in physical stores.
>>24092395Ignoring the decline in Humanities won't make it go away>>24092454In my country the brick and mortar book stores are closing.
>>24088473>I also don't like Emily Wilson but you guys need to stop sperging.Did you just tell us what to do? LMAO. I'm going to make a thread on this every day for the rest of the year just to spite you, you miserable ugly, old cunt. It's clear you are a fucking woman yourself. Disgusting bitch trash.
>>24092635>Ignoring the decline in Humanities won't make it go awayNor will making embarrassing threads on 4chan bring Homer back to life in his 'pure' form, whatever that means in the jumbled minds of these self-appointed (non-Classically educated) guardians of classical virtue.
>>24092654let's everyone in this thread post face and just put it all on the line
>>24091591>Facts don't exist in historyYou're too stupid too realize you don't actually believe that.
>>24090969And yet they're not printed on their own, they're printed opposite the original. Presenting a translation in facing-page has certain implications about how it's meant to be engaged with.
>>24091240I doubt it.
>>24091582Nah, you can learn to read Ancient Greek like you'd read a modern foreign language.
>>24091578Eh? Pope's seems decently strict.
>>24092144Surely a precocious tween could handle the older translations?
>>24092454I would argue most "slippery slope" arguments haven't come to pass, it's just we're much better at remembering the ones that have and forget the ones that haven't.
>>24092523If you shop in new book stores rather than used ones, anyway. Used book stores are based.
>>24090388Come on, why do you pretend to understand economics. I see this stupid fucking meme every week. Socialism is an EXPLICITLY ECONOMIC system when, either through a democratic or autocratic body, the means of production are centralized. Socialism is NOT Marxism, and it is NOT communism. You can be socialist without being either of those things. Fascism is an explicitly socio-rhetorical style of POLITICS, not economics, where an aspirant dictator feeds a disaffected middle class a populist national mythos (a victim complex, justified or not) to get into power. That's why it tends to be vague in actual policy, fascists don't care about policy, listless and extreme populism centered on the national mythos takes priority over any policy. It's low-iq emotional lashing-out ported over to government. China is socialist whether you want to deny it or not. I know that socialism and capitalism are on a spectrum, but pointing this out is pseud shit and there is a definite line where each one ends. Sorry buddy but a command economy is necessarily socialism. You're brain poisoned by the left-right dichotomy, you can be a socialist without being a leftist.Nor does dogshit applications of socialism mean that it's inherently a bad system. You don't have to cope, you should just acknowledge that socialism (currently) is unworkable, that the field of economics has proven this, and that it might be viable one day. If this isn't your conclusion, you're arguing what is essentially flat-earth economics, and everybody has a duty to ignore you or tell you to kill yourself. I imagine it probably will be viable one day but capitalism was at the same point half a millennium ago. If China is not socialist then how would you define market socialism? Does it cease being a form of socialism because there is limited private autonomy? No, it obviously doesn't. Definitionally, if the government coordinates the means of production from the top down, and does not have a rule of law that distributes property rights to everyone regardless of inherent characteristics, it's a socialist system. That is what the word means, stop being gay.
>>24088473>women should translate Homer.If Homer was transported to our current time he would prefer the Taliban to us.
>>24092043There's a reason it is called "Classics" not ancient history.
>>24092353>what all other women are doing - which is to say, what public policy makers have indoctrinated women to all believeRead Gramsci, then Frankfurt, and realise you just made a primitive Frankfurt school argument. You're the fucking problem. Time to learn about Autonomism and Johnson-Forrest.
>>24093241>You're too stupid too realize you don't actually believe that.Valid readings aren't facts. I know the difference between valid readings and facts because I took theology at University.
>>24088473btfo
>>24094528How?
>>24088521>>24088521>>24088792Now do all of you greek experts that want Homer to sound poetic know anything about the actual history of the Greek text? Do you know whether this was in any way meant to sound "poetic" to a Greek ear or not? Do you have any idea if this was not just vernacular of 1800 b.C., just like Dante uses Italian vernacular in Inferno and now it sounds "poetic" when, back then, it wasn't poetic at all? Or are you once again arguing about things you know nothing about from a poorly, social-media-fed and elaborated political perspective?
>>24088473I commend you for the amount of seethe you managed to generate by just telling people to read the actual original text
>>24092654Please do it. You sound like a consistent person who works hard to achieve their goals.
>>24094949>Do you know whether this was in any way meant to sound "poetic" to a Greek ear or not? Yes. A clue being that it was written in dactylic hexameter. An even bigger clue being that it's called a poem and poems, by definition, sound poetic because that's what poetic means.But, to be less flippant, it also makes use of:>extensive metaphor and non-literal imagery>repetition (a lot of repetition, though most translators excise a good deal of this repetition because they suck at translating) >highly flexible word order and sentence structure, much more so than one would find in daily speechAll of which contribute to a text sounding "poetic" in any language because again, these are highly typical features of poetry and highly atypical features of prose, especially casual or everyday prose.>Italian vernacular in Inferno and now it sounds "poetic" when, back then, it wasn't poetic at all?This is also entirely incorrect. Something being written in meter, by definition, means it's not written in vernacular. Human beings do not have conversations in meter, anon. Even English conversations, which tend toward the formation of iambs, do not ever adhere to a strict meter.
>>24094960Dear anon I am referring to the language register and you know this perfectly well. Don't be intellectually dishonest now. You can write perfectly good poetry by using low language register and every day vocabulary while still using all kinds of figures of speech - as countless poets did throughout the ages.The sound argument you could have used, if you knew anything about the subject (which you don't) is that he's actually using archaic words even for his own time, and that he's mixing together dialects that were available to him. But of course you have no idea he's doing this, because you can't read Greek, and if you do you haven't studied Homeric Greek in the specific (like I did), and are therefore not at all on a level where you can have this kind of discussion.Yet you pretend to know stuff and post about it with absolute certainty, much like, lacking any kind of knowledge about the subjects you're talking about, you're ready to defend one translation against another. Why? Maybe stop posting half-baked criticism starting from your literature 101 courses and /pol/posting and you won't be humiliated anymore.
>>24088473That translation you provided is so much better and more poetic.The problem with Wilson’s translation is how dry and flat it is. It’s like it was written for a toddler.
Roasties love immigrants until they date one, get beaten and abused, then go on Twitter to complain about how all men are bad,
>>24093273Name 5 slippery slope arguments about culture that have not come to pass and have no potential to do so.
>>24095137NTA so I'm not going to list 5, I'm not invested enough in this argument. That said, it used to be a fairly common argument among social conservatives that gay rights would lead to support for bestiality. /r9k/ memes about white women and dogs aside, I have yet to see any evidence that bestiality is gaining social acceptance or will any time soon.
>>24088435The first modern English translations of the Bible were already heretical. The only legitimate English version is Douay-Rheims.
>>24095140Gay rights did not not lead to bestiality, but it sure led to trannies and pedophiles becoming normalised, so conservatives are still correct in opposing it.
>>24088473spbp, they hate you because you tell the truth
>>24094975>>24088473anon you were supposed to just shame them, not kill them...
>>24088617>tell everyone itt to read>defending Bolsheviks>>24088632It's got to be shitty bait.
>>24088435I am going to jump on this trend and rewrite another epic poem with more modern sensibilities and language
>>24092635I'm sure one more thread bitching about this translation will be the thing that saves the humanities.
>>24088476>if you want the older translationsI want the youth of today and tomorrow who choose to study the classics to use translations that respect the original (if they indeed must use translations).
>>24095373>his rebuttal to someone defending the extremely well-read and highly educated Bolsheviks is to call them illiterate and tell them to instead read a schizophrenic reactionary whose entire argument against the USSR amounted “Dude I saw some crazy shit over there man, I can’t prove it but dude trust me bro”kys
>>24088473Absolutely God-tier bait
>>24095596Also, if anyone reading this exchange doubts my characterization of Solzhenitsyn‘s work, just note that his own WIFE called it “folklore” and said it had no historical or factual basis. The consensus among historians confirms this, with most bourgeois liberal academics settling on something to the effect of “Yeah nothing he said is factually accurate, but it COULD have been true and that’s what’s so powerful about it.”
>>24095607Oh wait this nigga serious LMAO
>>24093262I obviously wasn't counting Pope because that's not a real translation
>>24088514Words
>>24088505>Accuses someone of reddlt spacing>Doesn't actually know what reddlt spacing islol
>>2409522999.9% of gay and trans right activists are completely anti-pedo, of course within any large enough group you can cherry-pick a handful of wackos.
>>24096559is that why they wanted to explain their sexual habits to five year olds?
>>24095684How do you figure?
>>24096562"Some boys like boys, some girls like girls" is different than graphic descriptions of sex acts.
>>24096568Uh, about that
>>24088505embarassing post
>>24088486>>24088521>They know their ships go very fast. Poseidon gave them this gift. Their boats can fly like wings, or quick as thoughts.>They, indeed, trusting in the speed of their swift ships, cross over the great gulf of the sea, for this the Earth-shaker has granted them; and their ships are swift as a bird on the wing or as a thought.Wilson's version is better desu. The short sentences convey motion. The old translation has too many clauses and borrows an idiom from another poem.
>>24096563because of the liberties he takes to make it rhyme and sound poetic in english
>>24096568I can't wait for the day I become parent of elementary schoolers and during parent's visit I will find out the gay teachers and make covert resentful remarks and make a scene at the smallest inconvenience.I will also search out all the books in the school that contain gay faggot sex and stuff and just rip out the pages, hopefully without getting caught.If I catch an empty classroom, I will write 'teacher X is gay' on the board for everyone to see or other similar acts of sabotage.I will do all that in the safe knowledge that Western society is degenerate anyways and people will just think I'm another weirdo, nodd their heads and walk away, used as they are to decadent wretches like themselves.I mean things like waiting for someone to say 'I am a gay faggot' and I would instantly go on and ask them for their favourite sex position.If I hear about any lesbians I will ask them for sex in front of their 'children' and my own wife.I will proceed with grabbing a creamy cake and obnoxiously lick the cream off my finger while making loud noises.From there I will instantly proceed to shake hands with the school principal.I will drive home listening to a rant coming from my wife in the passenger seat.Then we will have dinner and I will sit on the table penis visibly erect.I am better than all those plebs, I will think to myself.
>>24096658The more I think about it the more I agree. The Greek is very efficient. When English translations try to convey the exact same amount of information they become very wordy. Maybe the best compromise would be reading Wilson along with one of the wordier ones. I did something similar with Pope's. One for literal accuracy, one for presentation. It's just a compromise that has to be made when translating works like this. You can't capture both the presentation and the raw information.
anime pfp mad af tho
>>24095241See >>24088581.
>>24094953See >>24088581. That poster clearly cannot read the Greek because he does not notice the interpolation. He has enough knowledge to find the Greek on Perseus and access the translation available there, but not enough to actually judge Wilson’s rendering.
>>24096658Seeing that the Odyssey was orally transmitted and performed, Wilson's translation would be way closer than the turgid and overwrought older translations.
>>24088435We're studying this in class and every single lesson I mention how bad it is. Last week I even brought in the Fagles for comparison. It was pretty funny but I know no one cared. I don't really focus on the translation because we're doing poetry. I mostly just talk about how fucking lame the the poetry is.
>>24096631And what makes you think these books are aimed at 5-year-olds, as opposed to being aimed at high schoolers who are encountering similarly graphic depictions of heterosexual activity in other places?
>>24096676By that standard Wilson's translation isn't a translation either, since it's in iambic pentameter.
>>24096740I'm not the anon at >>24096562, but it's disingenuous to say >>24096559 and ignore those books aimed at minors, and which occupied national discussion for the better part of a year.
>>24096631That is too many words for a 5 year old. Its for high schoolers. The books are graphic because that is what young people pay attention to. The authors were probably tumblr-using teens 15 years ago and wrote for that demographic.
>>24096751"Minors" is a broad category. There's a major difference between a 6-year-old and a 16-year-old- the latter is above the age of consent in the majority of US states, can drive, etc.
>>24096751Sex-ed books depicting sex aimed at high schoolers is fine.
>>24096563Because he translated a Latin translation of the original.
>>24096763A second-hand translation is lossy, but I don't see how it's not a translation.
>>24096752>>24096756>>24096759Spotted the nonces
>>24096786Are you saying you think there's no meaningful difference between a 6-year-old and a 16-year-old (who, I'll remind you, is above the age of consent in the majority of US states)?
>>24096786High schoolers are bombarded with graphic depictions of sex from social media, normal media, porn, and the rest of the internet. Educating them on how to stay safe as they start entering relations isn't being a pedophile, it is being responsible. Conservatives have made it an issue because they love to virtue signal and don't give a fuck about teenagers otherwise.
>>24096792Sure, but there's again a meangingful difference between being 16 and not being permitted to join dating apps or view porn, and what the books in >>24096631 encourage.>>24096812That's not what those books are doing, retard.
>>24090517No that’s actually fair enough anon, I jumped to conclusions too fast, your post actually was in direct response to posters like that, which I overlooked too quickly.
>>24096899The top left book looks like its going over consent scenarios and related topics and the bottom left book is less graphic than an R-rated movie. The top right book that gives instruction on how to sign up for a dating sight was probably written by a pedophile though.
>>24088435Her father slandered CS Lewis by saying he was banging his dead army buddy’s mother
>>24096942And? Are we judging people by the actions of their relatives now? People can't help who they're related to.
>>24096956>Christian>Judging people by what their parents didHappens more than you think
>>24096745it's a spectrum from more translation to less translation.
>>24088792>To move is to stir, and to be valiant is to stand. Therefore if thou art moved thou runn'st away.>Angry enough to run away. You won't stand and fight.wtf
>>24090494The Victorians made it Victorian which means it still carried deep beauty and meaning and retained the spirit of the original. We can't make it ours without barbarising it completely so we have to preserve older versions. Simple as.>>24092127Go back.
>>24096658>>24096691>>24096705>Poseidonthe hundreds of epithets are literally the soul of the poem
>>24094975>You can write perfectly good poetry by using low language register and every day vocabulary while still using all kinds of figures of speech - as countless poets did throughout the ages.Ya canna handa manna granda spanna.Let's get it on ock, and watch the spot get blownI be the sick lunatic with the devilish poemFrom the mists of the darkness I come with thisHittin straight, to the chest, like a Primatene mistRyzarector, YAH, the fanatical typeI'm like a bat, in the night, when it's time to take flightHere I am, in the flesh, and yes I love sessI'm obsessed, by the sounds, the track possessIntellectual, killer, special majesticalRopin up the devils have em hangin from my testiclesNowhere to run to ba-bayThere's nowhere to hideAhh... fuckit! Another day, another ducatFrom here to Nantucket MC's kick the bucketI'm rugged ruff flow-in up till I bustWhile other rappers is flatter than a white girl's buttI manifest my name and the reason I came in the first placeWord shake your brain just like an earthquakeA lot of people admit that I am rawI cover my ass like a V-I-M, storeMy forms are real wicked like DahmerA whole mob of a lot of niggaz is like a meal ticketIt's nowhere to run to ba-bayIt's nowhere to hideYoAs a child, a bad seed, was on the prowlRunnin mad wild, cause death was my styleThe crazy, maniac, yo lunaticI circle like a shark when the fresh blood dripsNeedles to the pen now you're inI eat em then I feed em chop chop rippin sheets from your skinTerror is in, with the RZA and the GrymProblem one now begins, hah!Streak up your skull to the sides of a freedomRecord to the meter, so tell me who could be the next oneGravediggaz complex death oathAnd watch King Tee, kill a fuckin noteHere we go, I'm cursed with dawn you was warnedAnd now, I'm slayin every new firstbornIt's nowhere to run to ba-bayIt's nowhere to hideIt's nowhere to run to ba-bayYou best to stay inside...You best to stay insideHere comes the drastic...[Protect Ya Neck intro]Just like... a tactic, attack it, attackin, ATTACKINI'm wrappin you bastard now prepare your casketDeath is the final step, when y'all stepTo intercept, the rep, of a brother, who has keptHis status, stop the madness, that isI flow just to show that, black, y'all can know thatMe, being wack is like naps on KojakEruptions of volcanoes, o-ccur when I speakTry to twist my dialect and get caught by tornadoesThere's nowhere to run to ba-bayThere's nowhere to hideThere's nowhere to run to ba-bayYou best to stay inside[Nowhere to run, nowhere to hideNowhere to run, nowhere to hide]
>>24088581It seems like a pretty clearcut case of dramatic irony. Wilson wrote a translation for general audiences, highlighting something clever is a good move.
>>24097473If it isn’t in the Greek, it’s not a translation, it’s an interpolation. If you want to ‘highlight’ something like that, put in a sanctimonious footnote or write your own poem on the subject. Don’t mislead the readership that trusts you have been faithful to the text.
>>24097531>I am retarded
>>24097562We already know you're a retard anon, you don't need to remind anyone.
>>24097562Yes, you are.
>>24088623>admitting to being a marxist filthkys nigger
>>24097746He's right. They're liberals. And you're a liberalist propagandizer.
