I want to read Don Quixote but apparently it's the most translated book in the world. What would be the preferred English translation to get the most out of the story?
kill yourself you stupid little shit head
>>24102565Once I'm done reading Don Quixote I'll get back to you on that
Unironically learn spanish, otherwise all the beauty of the text gets lost, I remember reading Poe's stuff translated into spanish and most translations were absolute rubbish, now imagine the horrors of angloids doing the same with el quijote there are some works you SHOULD read on their native language
It's not worth reading. Read Borges or Mishima instead
If you are very interested in Don Quixote you should learn spanish as the other anon said.Otherwise if its a casual thing, go with any translation, the gratis one in standard books is good enough.
>>24102581So would the Grossman translation be alright then? I would like to learn Spanish but it wouldn't be worth it for one novel
>>24102559Either Grossman's or Rutherford's should be good. Grossman's is easier to read than Rutherford's by quite a bit, but it's not entirely of lesser quality for its simplicity, though I prefer the language of Rutherford's. I'm not the best at describing this stuff, but I'll say that Rutherford's feels more grounded, whereas Grossman's feels quite modernized. Essentially, what Rutherford lacks in accuracy, he makes up for in the quality of his prose. Smollet's is also interesting, but it's not exactly a good translation.Grossman>Somewhere in la Mancha, in a place whose name I do not care to remember, a gentleman lived not long ago, one of those who has a lance and ancient shield on a shelf and keeps a skinny nag and a greyhound for racing.Rutherford>In a village in La Mancha, the name of which I cannot quite recall, there lived not long ago one of those country gentlemen or hidalgos who keep a lance in a rack, an ancient leather shield, a scrawny hack and a greyhound for coursing.Smollet>In a certain corner of la Mancha, the name of which I do not choose to remember, there lately lived one of those country gentlemen, who adorn their halls with a rusty lance and worm-eaten target, and ride forth on the skeleton of a horse, to course with a sort of starved greyhound.Original>En un lugar de la Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme, no ha mucho tiempo que vivía un hidalgo de los de lanza en astillero, adarga antigua, rocín flaco y galgo corredor.
Start with the Greeks silly
>>24102581To add to this, Don Quixote is one of the cases where reading an abridged edition is acceptable. You are missing nothing by not reading those pointless little stories within the story. Cervantes himself admitted those were a bad idea later on.
>>24102634Holy shit Smollet butchered such a simple text, I wonder what he did with the witty insults Quijote says to Sancho lmao
>>24102634Thank you this is exactly what I needed. I think I'll go with Grossman then since this novel is supposed to be humorous and that translation you posted seemed to be the funniest one.Thank you!
>>24102627Spanish is probably the most worthwhile Romance language to learn because of all the literature from both Spain and LatAm, plus you can learn Portuguese fairly quickly to unlock more gems.
>>24102644>You are missing nothing by not reading those pointless little stories within the storyYou just outed yourself as a pseud
>>24102648I'm not too well versed in Spanish and Portuguese literature what would you recommend?
>>24102661Benito Perez Galdos (one of the all-time greats in any language)Eca de QueirozRamon Valle de InclanMiguel de UnamunoJuan RulfoOctavio PazJorge Luis BorgesCarlos FuentesMachado de Assis Baltasar GracianPedro Calderon de la BarcaLope de VegaFernando PessoaRuben DarioLeopoldo AlasJose SaramagoCarlos Drummond de Andrade Cesar VallejoErnesto SabatoLuis de CamoesFor a start.
>>24102659Like I said, Cervantes himself said he shouldn't have included them. He didn't even write some of them. The Man Who Was Recklessly Curious is taken from Orlando Furioso.
>>24102645Funny you say that, because Smollet's was the only readable one.
>>24102692What do you mean?
>>24102581>>24102572>I want to read a book>Okay dude learn an entire new language or don’t even botherYou are the most insufferable type of retard
>>24103075Silence casual
>>24102675What's the best English translation for these?
>>24102675I am a Spaniard and can confirm all of these are great authors. Read a brief biography of them online before reading their book and you'll be in a much better position to understand the texts and enjoy them.
>>24102581How much time would it take to learn enough Spanish to be able to not just understand but appreciate Don Quixote from zero?
>>24103810It's a hard text even for spanish first languages who have spoken spanish all their lives.
>>24103810Spanish is my mother tongue. I went through this book on a great edition by La Real Academia, edited by the late Francisco Rico, who I think was considered the greatest authority on Cervantes, and it was difficult at parts, but very understandable for modern readers in my opinion. Having said that, I think it is nonsense to learn a whole new language to read just a book, however great it is. Find a reputable edition and go for it.
I’ve read about 60 pages of this book, and can’t help feeling as though it is a waste of my time.
>>24102572>>24102581oh yeah bro ill just learn a whole new language and the culture and nuances that come with it that took people more than a decade to fully appreciate shouldn't take me more than a few months though ;D
>>24102647I would recommend Grossman as well. I have not read her Don Quixote translation yet though I have it on the shelf. I have however read her translations of some of Gabriel Garcia Marquez’s and was pretty pleased at how she captured nuances when I would double check her phrasing against the original Spanish. (fair warning I only have about year of learning in Spanish so I’m not an expert by any means.) I think in the passage the anon posted this comes through as well. For example, Cervantes wrote, when referring to the name of the place he can’t remember, “no quiero recordarme.” The key part is the verb “quiero” which indicates a choice on behalf of the narrator. It is not that he can’t remember, it is that he does not want to. This is lost in Rutherford and is clumsily-phrased in Smollet (not to mention other weird issues with Smollet that I’m a little surprised to see from a professional translator).
>>24103995that cover art is a mess, though. Wish thry had gone for something more classical
>>24104020I did that with Shakespeare, I learned french just so I could read BaudelaireLearning a language is not hard is sonething you should be able to do the fact that you retards pull excuse after excuse only shows how little commitment you have to literature, there is no excuse and if you want to say something say the truth instead "IM LAZY" el quijote is not a hard text like some fucking cretins say, old spanish just have a different flavor and speed and a different vocabulary but is not some fucking alien shit you cant do the whole "I speak spanish and it was hard for me to read" only speaks of the stupidity of the reader and im tired of hearing it.
>>24104054>I learned french just so I could read Baudelairekeep learning it and read it again after a few years and you'll realize how much you've missed out, you people need to understand a language is more than words, it's culture, style, a way of living, you'll never appreciate native text as a foreigner unless you learn the language and LIVE there for at least a few years or even a decadethere's a sense of nostalgia and inclusion when you read in your native language, if you read in a second language it'll always be just that, a second language and that bridge can never be crossed
>>24104054Nah it just can't be done
>>24104070/lit/ will hate this but it's true
>>24104070>blah blah blah I don't want to do it okay?Under that reasoning is not possible to appreciate any work written in a foreign language, while having the context of the time periods zeitgeist and quirks is indeed the best you can do its not a titanic task also, there are 5 mains languages of literature 3 of them being romance languages and their Culture and heritage is shared to the most part, hell if you want to strecht that far is a waste lf time reading italian lit without being familiar with all the important shit since roman rule, but learning ENOUGH to appreciate it is possible and it doesnt require you selling your sould or doing some obscure ritual just I dont know... Educate yourself? But of course excuse after excuse I thought this board could be a bit more commited but you retardos are worse than normies,
>>24104137>hear awful advice from a lazy cunt on 4chinksWhat about you explain why is he so right then? Why dont you refute me with an actual argument instead of going away and samefagging? I know very well the context and historical frame of the flowers of evil because I dedicated TIME to do ny research, because I cared for the work instead of treating disposable entertaiment, you lack commitment and the neverending stream of excuses its the proof
>>24104054You likely suffer from Dunning Kruger Syndrome, where you believe you are much more proficient in a language than you really are. I think for the vast majority of people, it is much more beneficial to read a book in a good translation than read it in the original language that you only have rudimentary knowledge of.Especially when it's a work like Don Quixote, which is all about the plot and the characters and doesn't really have any important linguistic nuance that is unique to the spanish language. It's not like reading a translation of Shakespeare or Goethe where you would genuinely miss out on most of what makes their works great if you didn't read it in the original.
>>24104135>>24104148>I know very well the context and historyyou know, but you dont understand. im the guy you were arguing with, stop lashing out at the other person for no reason you sperg.
>>24103075skill issue
>>24102559There is nothing in mexican that you can't translate into a real language
>>24104135Good translations are usually written by people who do have that deeper connection to the original language which you are lacking. If your understanding of the language is equal or better than that of the translator, then of course you should read it in the original, but people are usually vastly overestimating their actual knowledge of a language, especially someone like you who thinks it's no big deal to learn 5 languages on a high level.
>>24104173Pretty much. Gabriel Garcia Marquez famously said that he preferred the english translation of One Hundred Years of Solitude to his original text.
>>24104163>>24104185>no, YOU are the Dunning Kruger!Why is this place lis this?
>>24104189He said that so anglos could buy his book anon, do you still believe in magic beans too I might have a spare for sale
>>24104165>you know, but you dont understandAh yes, you have now telepathic skills, good Lord I feel like im being trolled you cant say shit like this seriously.
>>24104192Considering how poor your English has been they have a point
>>24104192I mean, anyone who claims learning 5 languages is no big deal definitely suffers from Dunning Kruger Syndrome. Not sure why you are acting all offended if someone calls a spade a spade.
>>24104206Oh yes typos, the mortal sin.
>>24104214>he thinks spelling is his only problemYep, Dunning Kruger.
>>24104214Buddy come on. I'm not even the type who picks on poor English but its highly relevant to this talk now.
>>24104213I never said you should learn 5, you are pulling that out of your ass I said one is the bare minimum, I have been around anglo scum long enough to know you bozos barely speak your own language let alone a second one, and at the smallest suggestion of getting into learning a secong language you contort and sperg all over the place Im yet to find why is that? Is it pride? Do you feel lesser of a human being by learning a foreign tongue? Explain why you avoid such a simple task like the plague and please dont use the /pol/ excuse of "only english matters we are number oneeeeeee"
>>24104228And now heres the racism for no reason...I guess we're done here.
>>24104222>>24104226Point the mistakes then, go ahead this whole thread is nothing else but one or two guys hellbent on destroying me and not the argument, I wait for the usual nitpicks anglos always give "uhhhh sweety is not like that" you dogs barely speak your own tongue and have the gall to correct others
>>24104135>its not a titanic task also, there are 5 mains languages of literatureIs spanish one of them though? If I could choose 5 language to speak natively just for the sake of reading literature, I'd probably pick ancient greek, french, german, english, russian. 6th would be latin. 7th would be italian. Spanish would maybe be 8th on my list.
>>24104230>racismNo
>>24104242Yed the idea was to pick one, everyone has a favorite so I guess your favorite one? Of course is not possible to learn all of them.
>>24104228>I never said you should learn 5You are in a thread where someone asked for a good translation of Don Quixote and you immediately started shit talking and how they need to learn spanish or not bother with the book at all. So what is your official opinion here? That spanish is the quintessential 2nd language anyone should speak or that you were talking shit for no reason when someone asked for a translation of Don Quixote?
>>24104228>>24104237>spic throws a meltie over simply being wronglol why are they like this man... you make the anglos look good with your attempt at debasing them
>>24104054This is a really childish way of understanding languages and literature in general. You're either very young or not particularly well read in any language.t. trilingual European
>>24104311>its childish>refuses to elaborate on why>"I guess I win hehe">leaves4chan in a nutshell
>>24104311What languages do you speak bro?
>>24104311>t. trilingual Europeant. Jeet in Londistan
>>24102684>Cervantes himself said he shouldn't have included themMeans nothing. I bet every author of literature, if given the chance, would change things about their masterpieces decades later. Doesn’t mean they should.
>>24102559anyone have any thoughts or opinions on the montgomery translation from hackett?
>>24104346Estonian, English and Japanese. You didn't have to samefag 3 times.
>>24104237Alright. Besides all of those run-on sentences and comma splices, your most egregious mistakes were:>Learning a language is not hard is sonethingit's something>old spanish just have a different flavorhas*>Under that reasoning is not possible to appreciateit's*>there are 5 mains languages of literature5 main languages.>heritage is shared to the most partfor the most part>Im yet to find why is thatwhy that is>Point the mistakesPoint out the mistakes>Of course is not possibleit's1. You don't understand how to use dummy subjects.2. You can't conjugate "have" correctly.3. You try to force plural concordance onto English.4. You use the wrong prepositions in set phrases, which makes it clear that you've got a shoddy grasp of how prepositions function in English. Not uncommon with ESLs, but it's important to mention.5. Incorrect usage of subject-verb inversion. 6. You don't understand phrasal verbs.Bonus: I don't know if this >>24102572 was you, but that anon used "on" where he should've used "in". >you SHOULD read on their native language
>>24104382>japaneseOh no no no
>>24104382>japaneseNow this is some good Dunning kruger
>>24104409I went to university in Japan via MEXT, I have N1 and 漢字検定2級Yet I'm still not claiming that my Japanese is perfect, especially not when it comes to comprehending the intricacies of literature. Because it objectively isn't. Neither is your English if you're the original person I replied to.
>>24104461Nta weebanon, put down your katana
>>24104629I do actually have a katana though.
>>24104070>you people need to understand a language is more than words, it's culture, style, a way of living, you'll never appreciate native text as a foreigner unless you learn the language and LIVE there for at least a few years or even a decadeThen there's no point in learning ancient Greek or Latin
>>24104242Spanish over Italian desu. Modern Italian literature isn't that great and the good stuff is often fine in translation. Not worth learning Italian for Dante when even native Italian speakers struggle with it.
>>24104657Of course you do
>>24104070Just say you're a midwit that can't learn languages
Why are ESLs so insecure? No, if I can tell you're ESL after reading your post, your English isn't good.
>>24104812>>>>>>24104797;)
>>24104826If I can tell that English isn't your first language, you haven't learned it yet.
Grossman's fine, just check in with some secondary sources periodically to make sure all the formally interesting stuff isn't going over your head but largely remember it's a humorous and entertaining read, not some super serious work that's going to change your life give you great knowledge that a new reader might mistake from it's revered status on whatever list they likely picked it out from.
>>24104831What do you think is the main topic of the book?
>>24102634Spanish here. I'll try to ltranslate literally each segment so that you can see who is more close to the original in terms or fidelity. I specified that I'll translate them literally because my translation will not be beautiful in prose like these, I'm only trying to define the meaning, not trying to make a new translation. >En un lugar de la Mancha "In a place of La Mancha". It never mentions a village, the most faithful is Grossman but Smollet is also close. +2 to Grossman +1 to Smollet. >de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme "whose name I do not want to remember". The narrator actively doesn't want to remember the place, it's not like he forgots or that he doesn't care. +2 to Smollet since he is the only one faithful in this case.>no ha mucho tiempo que vivía un hidalgo de los de lanza en astillero"Not long ago lived a nobleman of those with a spear (or lance) in (word that doesn't exist in english, and its meaning in spanish today has changed too. It's the furniture where you put your spears). Grossman and Rutherford are the most faithful, since the point of Quixote having his spear in his (shelf or rack) is that he never used it. It never mentions it's for adornation, so Smollet may be deceiving. The latest part by Smollet is too different of the original. Also, what's the point in Rutherford not translating "Hidalgo"? He is the most faithful in the latest part. +2 to Grossman, +2 to RutherfordOverall: Grossman 4, Rutherford 1, Smollet 3.
>>24104939Dumb ESL
>>24104939Spaniard here. While true that today "lugar" means place, back then it meant "small village." Cervantes is attempting from the onset to draw a light on Quixote's ancient blue blood; since in the rural provinces it was where Germanic blood was the most present. Thus, Rutherford is the most honest.
>>24103075>>24104020You're both fucking retarded. We're speaking about Spanish here, not Chinese, not Greek, not Arabic. Spanish is extremely easy for an English native. It literally takes no effort to grab it.
>>24105079Not interested, the only spanish I need is mucho rapido el taco Jose
>>24105086santa basada...
>>24105079Are you Spanish?
>>24105079>Spanish is extremely easy for an English native. It literally takes no effort to grab it.Honestamente es la verdad. Estoy aprendiendo español desde hace casi 2 meses y, aunque sí, no tengo nada de confianza ni en mi habilidad para expresarme al hablar o escribir, la lectura es tan fácil que casi no puedo creerlo.>t. immersion learner
>>24105193This was unironically perfect spanish, I kneel.
>>24102572>learn a language for one bookFart-sniffing pseud advice. Learning a language properly is a lifelong commitment, it's not something you do just to try out some book you might not even like.Those polyglots you see on youtube are shit at the languages they show off, they genuinely sound like retarded children.
>>24104398Based ESL slaughterer. I miss when they used to add "sorry for bad english" at the bottom of every post instead of just acting smug because they have a 4 year old's grasp of english.
>>24105193what are you supposed to do?
>>24105079>statements that are completely false for 800im a native english speaker, i took 2 years of spanish in high school, then 4 years of spanish in college (including remedial ones because i failed 2nd language tests), and i still cannot speak or understand a single fucking word of it beyond the most obvious of words (like comprende meaning comprehend)
>>24106146>Learning a language properly is a lifelong commitmentThis. Suggesting someone learn an entire language just to read a single book is advice that could only come from someone who’s never actually mastered a language at a very high level. Unless you start as a child, you will almost certainly never attain the overall skills of a highly educated native speaker. And unless you’re a savant, it’s practically impossible to develop a level of comprehension in more than ~3 languages sufficient to truly appreciate literature. Speaking as an ESL myself, I’m honestly sick of other ESLs boasting about being "good" at several languages when they can barely string together a coherent English sentence. The idea that their comprehension is somehow equal to that of a native speaker is laughable when they barely reach the level of an elementary schooler and often have even worse grammar. Yes, learning languages can be "easy" if all you aim for is basic conversational ability, but if you can’t pass for a native, save for your accent, you really shouldn’t be making such claims.
>>24105193I was basically able to read this. Further proving your point.
>>24102559Penguin's fine. There are a lot of them pre-1900 of literary interest. You'll take the time to go through them if DQ's something you love. >>24102634>Not all that long ago in La Mancha - or thereabouts - a place I can't be bothered to recall, was a fellow of the sort that bedeck their halls with a mounted lance and ancient buckler, with an old nag and mangy cur to match.
>>24106154That's because you're retarded
>>24102572Nobody's learning Spanish just to read the one Hispanophone text worth knowing about
>>24106184I wholeheartedly agree. I also find it noteworthy that as a more humble esl you display better English proficiency than the ones trying to boast. I wouldn’t have known you aren’t native if you didn’t say so.
>>24106154to be fair it doesn't look like you know English that well
>>24106184Most language learners online draw the line of ‘knowing’ a language at being able to read Harry Potter and ask for directions in broken sentences. Being able to read and speak as well as an educated native should be the standard of all language learning but it just isn’t.
>>24102581>gratisfreetard detected
>>24104939I'd be interested in seeing what you can translate with some of the other popular passages if you are interested, or maybe start a /lit/ translation general and do some stuff together coming up with new translations. >HidalgoRutherford says he didn't translate it, in his introduction, because there wasn't an exact translation and its a well known enough Spanish word that it can be left untranslated. I don't think Quixote was of nobility, he was at most descendant of them, but at the time he wasn't.
not ragging on OP, but, I am tired of translation fetishists who have no working understanding of translation theory or a coherent set of beliefs w/r/t translation
>>24111441Sure. I'm not a professional translator though, just a spic. I might get things wrong as this anon pointed out: >>24105064
whats the go-to for spanish language edition of this book? preferably on anna's archive in epub format.
>>24106184I agree, but you're coping hard as fuck. Go learn a second language, mutt.
>>24111551RAE Edición del IV centenario.Either the 2004 or 2015 editions.
>>24111746Average ESL-tier comprehension.
>>24111814I was too distracted by that literal semen demon to properly read that wall of text. Please be mindful of other Anons when posting next time.
>>24104363pretty good I guess
>>24106154this is based honestly
The funniest thing about reading Quixote in Spanish, or even the Divine Comedy in Italian, is that pseuds would never suffer you to claim that it's a better read in English even if you learn a thing or two from the original text and experience the prose dynamics of a different language. It's not to say that any given translated work is necessarily better in English, but that it exposes pretentiousness of the people who have meltdowns about it, like in this thread. It's incredibly common for language scholars to recommend less literal translations of books like Journey to the West for introductory reading because the translations closer to Chinese, or even the source material in Chinese itself, is mostly for academic research. So really if you're not a researcher and not contributing anything with your "rigorous" reading in the original language, you've got no grounds to talk down to people who want to read for pleasure. It's a pointless appeal to authority without exercising any authority.
>>24107283>the one Hispanophone text worth knowing aboutNGMI
>>24112828At least name some others if you're going to seethe
>>24112825>if you learn a thing or two from the original text and experience the prose dynamics of a different languagethis is the fun part i have with it, i'm going to "learn" spanish for this, but I can make use of the different editions and online translators to get a taste of the difference.
>>24114368meant to say that I'm NOT going to really learn spanish for this, just get a taste of the original. I'm going to try Portuguese next
