I thought it'd be interesting to make a thread on Jungian literature and his concepts, mainly concerning mythology and dream analysis.I saw in Wasoru that some threads were made on this topic and were deleted by mods, but they were basically threads where people shared their dreams and the OP, a tripfag, answered with interpretations, like a tarot or astrology thread on /x/. So I think if we stick with the literary discussion of his works and concepts we'll be fine.What books have you read on the topic of archetypes, mythology and dream analysis?What dreams (yours or from another) did you find interesting and would like to share (with your own attempt at interpretation)?Do you think dream analysis is taken seriously in academia and by people in general?What are some interesting myths you have encountered?Are there any worthwhile modern Jungian writers?
>>24110062>Anima:"The anima is the archetype of life itself. She is the Eros principle which binds soul and body together. She appears as the personification of all feminine psychological tendencies in a man's psyche, such as vague feelings and moods, prophetic hunches, receptiveness to the irrational, capacity for personal love, and his relation to the unconscious. The anima is both a personal complex and an archetypal image of woman in the male unconscious. Being a bridge between the ego and the unconscious, she has an important role in mediating between conscious and unconscious life."Aion, Jung.>Animus:"The animus is the counterpart of the anima in man. It is an archetype of the unconscious, representing the masculine principle within the female psyche. Where the anima emphasizes feelings and relationships, the animus concerns itself with opinions, convictions, and the realm of the mind. It often takes the form of a collective voice, offering wisdom or criticism, guiding or obstructing as the case may be."Memories, Dreams, Reflections, Jung.
>>24110075Jung on Artists:> Art is a kind of innate drive that seizes a human being and makes him its instrument. The artist is not a person endowed with free will who seeks his own ends, but one who allows art to realize its purposes through him. As a human being he may have moods and a will and personal aims, but as an artist he is "man” in a higher sense—he is " collective man ”—one who carries and shapes the unconscious, psychic life of mankind. Toperform this difficult office it is sometimes necessary for him to sacrifice happiness and everything that makes life worth living for the ordinary human being.> The lives of artists are as a rule so highly unsatisfactory—not to say tragic—because of their inferiority on the human and personal side, and not because of a sinister dispensation. There are hardly any exceptions to the rule that a person must pay dearly for the divine gift of the creative fire It is as though each of us were endowed at birth with a certain capital of energy. Thestrongest force in our make-up will seize and all but monopolize this energy, leaving so little over that nothing of value can come of it. In this way the creative force can drain the human impulses to such a degree that the personal ego must develop all sorts of bad qualities—ruthlessness, selfishness and vanity (so-called " auto-erotism ”)—and even every kind of vice, in order to maintain the spark of life and to keep itself from being wholly bereftInterestingly enough, Jung did explore his artistic qualities in The Red Book, although his paintings are not the prettiest.
I’ve recently been through his metaphysics as cryptically discussed in his work on synchronicity. It’s damn impressive that for a non-philosopher he managed to gain the same insights that Heidegger did regarding the meaning of being. When I investigate it next I’m probably going to go a lot deeper on the Taoist angle. Before that I read Robert Johnson’s Inner Work as a guide to learn active imagination, which worked well and has been providing huge mental benefits. Jung is taken seriously in academia, the problem is he’s hard to fit because people are undereducated. Modern psychology is just a race to the bottom, they need to abandon psychometrics as a whole if they’re ever going to get anywhere. Philosophy and religious studies don’t mind you talking about him but they don’t tend to have courses devoted to him.
>>24110062if I was a woman I would let Young Jung turn me into his breeding slave
>>>>>/x/
>>24110127fugg I should really read Mr. Young :DDD
>>24110740Nice, I've been wanting to read Inner Work.>Jung is taken seriously in academia, the problem is he’s hard to fit because people are undereducated. Modern psychology is just a race to the bottom, they need to abandon psychometrics as a whole if they’re ever going to get anywhere. Philosophy and religious studies don’t mind you talking about him but they don’t tend to have courses devoted to him.TrueThere's a book that explores his metaphysics, picrel. Decoding Jung's Metaphysics by Kastrup. Jung was very influenced by Schopenhauer, I believe.
>>24113308Yep this was one of the ones I read. Def recommend and I want to check out Kastrup’s book on Schopenhauer too. Some other good books I read as part of my research:>Jung in the 21st century by John Ryan Haule>Jung and Phenomenology by Roger Brooke>Imagination and Myth: A Heideggerian Reading of C.G. Jung by John Ryan Haule (this was his phd thesis, you can get it online)>Jung was very influenced by Schopenhauer Yes but Jung wasn’t as conversant with philosophy as he let on. It was actually something of a sore spot for him, check out this article on it https://www.thelivingphilosophy.com/p/jung-vs-philosophersJung’s INFJ type meant he wanted to blend in to polite society as much as possible due to Fe, and this was in tension with his far reaching Ni insights. His Toni Wolff affair got played down as did his metaphysics and paranormal research in favour of appearing like a devoted empirical scientist. This was probably why he was most critical of Nietzsche despite agreeing almost entirely with him (if only he read more closely). Nietzsche was an INTJ who had insights just as deep but had no qualms of being at odds with society as a polemicist. I think Jung was very jealous of that. That’s also my experience with infjs as an Intj, we think the same things but they don’t say it and I do lol.
>>24110127>his paintings are not the prettiestPrettiness be damned. They are striking and affecting. Jung knew how to unleash the unconscious.
>>24110062I just started reading Man and His Symbols recently. I'm about a third of the way through, and I have to say, I'm quite fascinated by the ideas presented thus far. My initial reaction is to find much of it hard to believe, though. I am also experiencing some scepticism due to the origin of his interest in the subject—his supposed unconsious reenactment of a totem ritual in childhood. I will continue to read, as I hope to encounter stronger evidence in favor of his perspective.I kept a dream journal for about six months when I was trying to self-induce a lucid dreaming state. Perhaps I will start doing so again and attempt to analyze them. My personal experience is that for the most part, my dreams tend to be amalgamations of ideas and experiences that are either very recent, or very recently recalled in my waking hours. For example, I recently accepted a new position at my work, and I also had a phone conversation with my mother two days ago. Last night, I dreamt about saying goodbye to my old co-workers, and my mother was watching. I don't find there to be much worth analyzing in a dream like that, but since I am out of practice, I'm sure I have had many others recently that I simply do not recall.
>>24114604The totem ritual wasn’t his fundamental cause of interest. Initially he wanted to be an archaeologist but went into medicine for the money, then became interested in the French school of psychology. You could check out Ellenberger’s The Discovery Of The Unconscious if you want to see the long tradition of the unconscious in psychology, Jung only shows up towards the end of the book. As for the dreams, the recency thing is usually because that’s the easiest symbol to come to hand. That said not every dream is going to feel super important.
>>24114704I did not mean to imply that the totem ritual caused his interest in psychology in general, but more specifically in symbols and archetypes. I have a hard time believing that his personal experience didn't lead him in that direction. I will check out that book next. Thanks for the recommendation.
>>24110874ah, I see anon has fully incorporated his anima.
>>24114733That’s possible but it was of interest in academia in general at the time. The age of colonial exploration led to lots of works on totemism and rituals of the societies Europeans encountered around the world. Levi-Bruhl in particular was a big influence on Jung.
I like jungs concept of Enantiodromia>Enantiodromia (Ancient Greek: ἐναντίος, romanized: enantios – "opposite" and δρόμος, dromos – "running course") is a principle introduced in the West by psychiatrist Carl Jung. In Psychological Types, Jung defines enantiodromia as "the emergence of the unconscious opposite in the course of time."[1] It is similar to the principle of equilibrium in the natural world, in that any extreme is opposed by the system in order to restore balance. When things get to their extreme, they turn into their opposite. Jung adds that "this characteristic phenomenon practically always occurs when an extreme, one-sided tendency dominates conscious life; in time an equally powerful counterposition is built up which first inhibits the conscious performance and subsequently breaks through the conscious control."[1]>However, in Jungian terms, a thing psychically transmogrifies into its shadow opposite, in the repression of psychic forces that are thereby cathected into something powerful and threatening.>Jung himself wrote: "Old Heraclitus, who was indeed a very great sage, discovered the most marvellous of all psychological laws: the regulative function of opposites. He called it enantiodromia, a running contrariwise, by which he meant that sooner or later everything runs into its opposite."
>>24114922>In history we have seen this again and again and this is what the German philosopher of history Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel referred to as the cycle of thesis, antithesis and synthesis in a process he called the dialectic. From the superstitious, narrow minded ‘dark ages’ of the middle ages, through the alchemical transformative process of the black death, the renaissance was born and led to an explosion in interest in observation, inquiry, history, antiquity. It was the birth of the ‘enlightenment’ and humanism, and I (and others feel) we are now living at the end of the period of humanism and enlightenment, with the rise of consumerism, capitalism, the destruction of the environment. Aspects of this historical transformation, i.e. the end of the enlightenment through the rise of consumerism and mass media (and I would include social media although they didn’t exist at the time) were predicted by Max Horkheimer and Theodor Adorno in “Dialectic of Enlightenment” (published in 1944). At the risk of oversimplification, you could see the same process of things turning into their apparent opposite in the shift from the Obama administration in the US, which appeared ‘post-racial’ flipping into the Trump administration and their unwillingness to disavow racist terrorist groups (Orwellian-ly ‘mis’-labeled as ‘militias’). I say ‘appeared’ because one thing we learn through looking at events through the lens of enantiodromia is that all the elements are there or have been there ‘all along’, but enantiodromia causes a shift in what is valued and what is not seen, a foreground figure background figure shift, like the two profiles that are also a vase or the Necker cube’s apparent orientation.I see this concept a lot in poltards who go from hardcore nazis to trooning out, or like a anti gay televangelist who gets caught having gay sex
I read The Red Book two years ago now along with Aion, The Aion Lectures, Alchemy & Psychology. I picked up Meditations on The Tarot but got REALLY fucking filtered so have had to go back and read a lot of supporting works. I'm deeply interested in how myth has influenced and been influenced by human development and our biology. I picked up a book I thought would help regarding Pythagoras and sacred geometry but it was horribly new-age.Just finished an abridged Upanishads which I felt had a small amount of crossover with what some Western books have mentioned.>>24114604What did you do to Lucid dream? I struggle with it
>>24115118Check out Levi-Bruhl
>>24115120Interesting.I also got filtered by this and am stuck 1/2 through. Lots of love for Parmenides in it but felt like it could've been edited better.
>>24110127I think I might be wholly bereft...
>A Man and His Symbols>The Aeon >Alchemical Studies Are the only books by Jung I've read. They were all very interesting. Especially his thesis that alchemy had more in common with religion and its study was more a precursor to psychoanalysis than any sort of science. That said, dreams and the analysis of dreams is a waste of time. Your dreams have more to do with your own personal biases and fears than anything else. The true paydirt of Jung is applying his theories and interpretations to literature.
>>24115127You basically chose the Dante Must Die mode of Jungian studies lol. How strong is your background in the fundamentals?
>>24115142>That said, dreams and the analysis of dreams is a waste of time. Your dreams have more to do with your own personal biases and fears than anything else. Prove it. Dream analysis tends to be the most productive part of a course of therapy.
>>24115202>How strong is your background in the fundamentals?Not strong? What books do you recommend in particular.>>24115206nta. I'm definitely more interested in his interpretation of religious texts suggesting that there's the hypothesis of a collective unconscious push towards the antichrist
>>24110062The only work by young I have read were his travelogues in subsaharan Africa.Very odd experience, that was.Bizarrely, I identified similarities between something he describes and something described in some novel about a dry mexican valley.
>>24115142>That said, dreams and the analysis of dreams is a waste of time. Your dreams have more to do with your own personal biases and fears than anything else.This sounds like a folly of youth. Your dreams get profounder as you get older. Recording and analysing my dreams is one of the most rewarding things I've done.
>>24110062I'm confused. Is Jung a Psychologist or Metaphysician?
>>24115344One implies the other. All human thought comes from the psyche, therefore psychology encompasses all human thought.Some people deride Jung as a mystic, without realising mysticism is a psychological phenomenon, and therefore a proper subject for a psychologist.
>>24115376Convince modern Psychology about the existence of the soul though.
>>24115215For fundamentals there’s no single perfect resource but here’s a few suggestions:>Anthony Stevens- On Jung The best introduction I’ve found, somewhat of a materialist reading though. >John Ryan Haule- Jung In The 21st CenturyConnects Jungian thought with modern science and finds it holds up very well, then pushes some modern science assumptions. Probably a better introduction if you have a science background or if you have a standard physicalist worldview >Jung- Two Essays On Analytical Psychology, Man And His Symbols, Structure And Dynamics Of The Psyche, Archetypes And The Collective UnconsciousHis easier and more central works. His books on case studies are very worthwhile for curing your own issues, and his Psychological Types book is brilliant for all sorts of things, but those seem tangential to what you’re researching. >Erich Neumann- Origins and History of ConsciousnessAs Jung wrote in the foreword, this is basically Symbols Of Transformation if it had the benefit of hindsight. It lays out the maturation of consciousness in the psyche and symbolically connects it to mythology, primarily Egyptian. It also talks about how a similar process has occurred across societies and accounts for the differences in religious history. The latter part is an oversimplification in Nuemann’s case but his method of laying it out symbolically is great for making sense of symbolic interpretations in Jung. >>24115344Primarily a psychologist, and a metaphysician insofar as metaphysics bears on psychology. Much like how Damazio is a neuroscientist who talks about the errors of Cartesian philosophy of mind. >>24115381Psyche and Soul are the same thing to Jung.
>>24115344Psychologist and/or theologian, but not a philosopher.
>>24116125Thank you for those recommendations. >John Ryan Haule- Jung In The 21st Century>Erich Neumann- Origins and History of ConsciousnessI'll probably pick those up.>>24116190I'd agree with this.
>>24115118>What did you do to Lucid dream? I struggle with itI never had much success. My approach was to identify common themes and patterns in my dreams so that while dreaming, I could notice them and understand them as indications that I am dreaming. I also attempted to fixate on certain pre-selected concepts during the day and while drifting to sleep, hoping that they would appear in my dream and indicate to myself that I am, in fact, dreaming. Most of the time, I was too invested in the dream narrative and lacking in self-awareness to recognize these signs, even when they appeared, and I would only realize in retrospect, after waking up, that I had succeeded in sending the message to myself. I can only recall two major successes, and in both cases I quickly lost my lucidity and woke up. It's been about four years since I've actively attempted this. I do not have much experience with other methods of lucid dream inducement, but there are lots of resources online. I remember coming across some on /x/, so you could search the archives if that interests you.
>>24115206Try being introspective about the things you do in reality instead. You may find that's even better therapy. >>24115292I'm glad you enjoy your hobby, but I find dreams are more reflections of basic desires and fears, which arent particularly profound.
>>24116557Dreams depict reality. I’m not talking about my personal therapy I’m talking about the vast amount of case study evidence connecting dreams to unconscious functioning. You need to do better than “I find” if you want anyone to buy your nonsense.
>>24116421>>24115118I am a third person, but I can a lot of times tell when I'm dreaming, and this doesn't stop me from being carried away in the dream. It doesn't grant me any free will or illusion of free will, the dream just goes on.Once I was dreaming and said "oh, so these are the animas", and they transformed into fish, along with myself, then I had to run away from them and after I did I transformed into a cat. Deeply unconscious, even though I can remember I remembered I was dreaming.I wasn't lucid though, just a step towards it maybe?
>>24114421The other Kastrup book I read was Why Materialism is Baloney. Now I'm finishing Schopenhauer's Will and Representation and want to read Schopenhauer next.I'm interested in the books you've recommended, do you have any others that are more psychological in nature? For example, those by Marie-Louise von Franz. I don't know any Jungian that had any very relevant books, but I'm not in the field of psychology.
>>24117040>want to read Schopenhauer nextI meant that I want to read Kastrup's book on Schopenhauer you mentioned.
>>24116912you're arguing scientific evidence in a Jungian dream analysis thread?
>>24117051Yes. Case studies are scientific evidence. You going to put on your IFLS shirt and lecture about how only double blind peer reviewed studies are science?
>>24117040Ellenberger’s Discovery Of The Unconscious is great for an overview of pre-Jungian psychology, Samuels’ Jung and the Post-Jungians is good for after. You can’t go wrong simply reading all of Jung’s books, even the obscure ones teach you a lot, although Symbols Of Transformation is quite messy. If you want non-Jungian psychology then Freud is a very good and clear writer even if I find his theories reductive and flip-flopping. Piaget, Panksepp, Lorenz and Rogers are worth knowing about but nowhere near as in depth as Jung.
>>24117282Thanks for the recs!I've been reading a book called "Aspects of the Feminine" which is a collection of articles he wrote, then I'll read Aspects of the Masculine. I've read Man and His Symbols which was great, Modern Man left me unsatisfied, Dreams was great but very esoteric and I had to reread some parts because I was not prepared for it at all.After these books I'll pick up Memories, Dreams, Reflections or Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious.
>>24117761Good choices. I find his best writing to come across in the slightly more technical works like Structure And Dynamics Of The Psyche and Psychogenesis Of Mental Disease. The latter one is read by almost nobody but the case studies in it are fascinating and go a long way towards revealing how complexes work day to day. Also reveals the cure for homosexuality which absolutely everybody ignored.
