ἐρώμενος editio>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·>>24763657>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw>Mέγα τὸ ANE·https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg>Work in progress FAQhttps://rentry dot co/n8nrkoAll Classical languages are welcome.
>>24816688In honor of the edition, posting a Classical Chinese poem on a related topic:>孌童>作者:蕭綱> 孌童嬌麗質 踐董復超瑕> 羽帳晨香滿 珠簾夕漏賒> 翠被含鴛色 雕牀鏤象牙> 妙年同小史 姝貌比朝霞> 袖裁連璧錦 牋織細橦花> 攬袴輕紅出 廻頭雙鬢斜> 嬾眼時含笑 玉手乍攀花> 懷猜非後釣 密愛似前車> 足使燕姬妒 彌令鄭女嗟
>>24816748Thread ruined.
>>24816688>ἐρώμενοςOh shit- no this is what ruined the thread.
>>24816788The Greeks were, in fact, pretty fucking gay.
>>24816788>n-no vro yuo don't get it the ancient greeks were BASED and had the exact same morals as me they were BASED bro no they weren't gay vro vro you don't get it vro everyone thought they were straight until the jews brainwashed them in the 20th century vro
>>24816688What is that man holding in his left hand? I can't tell. Is it a walking stick?
>>24816857>so what if the laws of Lycurgus record that the Spartans executed homos and the Athenians genitally mutilated men who creeped on boys>so what if the only source for the sacred band of thebes being gay is a Roman secondary source centuries later who said it was uncertain>they were hippy dippy faggots because my Oxford professor said so and Oxford is a good school so you know it’s true
>>24817317They were not hippy dippy faggots. But they also did not uniformly condemn all forms of homosexuality at all times and places in the Greek world.
>>24817317Xenophon also talks about Theban military pederasty. And there are numerous references to Epaminondas’ homosexuality. Also there’s nothing liberal/leftist about institutional homosexuality
>>24817323>>24817329Gays have always existed. What has been pushed is that Greeks were particularly more accepting than any other iron age civilization, which I simply have not seen sufficient evidence for outside of the existence of a few rich and powerful pedophiles during the peak of hellenic affluence and degeneracy.
>>24817329>Xenophon also talks about Theban military pederasty. No source provided>And there are numerous references to Epaminondas’ homosexuality.No source provided. Plus one recorded gay guy ever doesn’t mean the Macedonians sodomized each other all the way to the Indus and back.
>>24817323Fucking young boys has always been weird and condemned from their time onwards. I have seen no real evidence presented to the contrary beyond aggressively misinterpreting sources and presenting parents being concerned about rich and powerful men acting above the law to abuse boys as some evidence of meaningful acceptance of pedophilia. Which you people call pederasty to obfuscate and mislead the masses through polite semantic precision.
>>24816791>>24816857>>24817323>>24817329
>We all know that it was widespread among the Greeks and Romans, and was publically admitted and practised unabashed. All the authors of antiquity give more than abundant proof of this... The philosophers speak much more of this love than of the love of women... Here in general there is no need for proofs for well-informed readers; they can recall them by the hundred, for with the ancients everything is full of it.Arthur Schopenhauer, The World as Will and Representation Vol. II, 1844
Ave, puer speciose, qui non queris precium,Qui te dono conparari summum ducis vicium;In quo decor et honestas delegit hospicium;Forma cujus sibi capit oculos spectancium.Crinis flavus, os decoruın cervixque candidula,Sermo blandııs et suavis; sed quid laudem singula?Totııs pulcher et decorus, nec est in te macula;Sed vaccare castitati talis nequit formula.Cum natura te creavit, dubitavit paululumSi proferret te puellam, an proferret masculum;Sed dum in hoc eligendo mentis figit oculum,Ecce prodis, in cummune natus ad spectaculum.Postquam vero tibi manum extremam adibuit,Est mirata quia talem te creasse potuit;Sed naturam in hoc solum erravisse patuit,Quod, cum tanta contulisset, te mortalem statuit.Tibi nequid conparari quislibet mortalium,Quem natura sibi fecit singularem filium;In te sibi pulcritudo legit domicilium,Cujus nitet caro cara, candens uti lilium.Crede mihi, si redirent prisca Jovis secula,Ganimedes jam non foret ipsius vernacula;Sed tu, raptus in supernis, grata luce pocula,Gratiora quidem nocte Jovi dares oscula.Puellarum juvenumque votum extas publicum;Te suspirant et exoptant quem noverunt unicum.Errant quidem, inmo peccant qui te vocant Anglicum;Et vocalem interponant, et dicant angelicum.>gay erotica which quotes the Canticle of Canticles>gay erotica which quotes St. Gregory the Great/the Venerable BedeFaggots used to be awesome.
This thread is about classical languages not about weird sexual practices of the ancient Greeks.>>24817391What do you think Alexander and Hephaestion were doing in the horse carriage all that time?
>>24817408>more cope than twitter commiesRead Plato
easiest way to learn conjugation for greek?
>>24816857>>24816791
>>24817480Alexander famously rode Boucephalas.
>>24817829>King Alexander, too, was quite excessively keen on boys: according to Dicaearchus in On the Sacrifice at Troy, he was so taken with the eunuch Bagoas that under the eyes of the whole theater he bent over to give him a kiss, and when the audience shouted and applauded, he very willingly bent over and kissed him again.Athenaeus, Deipnosophistae 13.602>When Alexander arrived at the palace of Gedrosia, he restored the army with a festival. It is said that he got drunk and watched choral competitions. His eromenos Bagoas won in the dancing and he traversed the theater in his costume and sat down beside him. Seeing this, the Macedonians applauded and shouted out, bidding Alexander kiss him, until he embraced him and kissed him deeplyPlutarch, Alexander 67.8>Alexander laid a wreath on Achilles' tomb and Hephaestion on Patroclus', hinting that he was Alexander's eromenos, as Patroclus was of Achilles.Aelian, Varia Historia 12.7>Euxenippus was still very young and a favourite of Alexander's because he was in the prime of his youth, but though he rivaled Hephaestion in good looks he could not match him in charm, since he was rather effeminate.Curtius, The History of Alexander 7.9.19>The same lawgiver said: ‘The slave is not to be the lover of a free boy, nor to pursue him, or else he is to receive fifty lashes with the public whip.’ But he did not prevent the free man from being a lover, from associating with or pursuing a boy, nor did he think that this brought harm to the boy, but saw it as a testimony to his self-control.Aeschines, Against Timarchos 138-9
>NOOOOOOOOOOO LE EPIC TRAD HECKIN BASED GREEKS CANNOT BE GAY!!!!
>>24817451Which part is quoting the Song of Songs? I'm afraid I don't know my Bible well enough.
>>24816748How the fuck do you find this shit, thousands of amazing Chinese poets and you managed to find the only massive paedo among them all
>>24817835>Athenaeus>Plutarch>Aelian>CurtiusHundreds of years after Alexander>Aeschines>but saw it as a testimony to his self-controlimplying he knows it to be wrongThere are legitimate sources of Greek faggotry but you failed to produce any of them.
I didn't know /clg/ had so many coping christcucks
>>24818087>Hundreds of years after AlexanderIf you think that's a valid reason to completely dismiss a source you're legitimately retarded
I didn't know /clg/ had so many AIDS-infected faggots who get their backs blown out by Tyrone on the reg trying to justify their depravity by appeal to what Jewish academics say the ancient Greeks did
We only think that the romans and the greeks were fine with homosexuality and pederasty because we only have texts from their declining eras and also exclusively from the upper and upper-middle classes who were historically always more degenerate in their sexual practices, during any era in any society, than the healthy peasants and proles whose work they depdended on. It's as if some historian thousands of years from now on tried to derive what normal people's sexuality was like from sources that exclusively came from bourgeois californians and new yorkers. Of course any society would look degenerate and gay that way.
>>24818111On the contrary, homosexuality was widespread during the Archaic era of Greece that preceded the Classical era - you can see it in the poetry of Ibycus, Simonides, Anacreon, etc. The most reactionary writer from that period, Theognis, was a full-blown faggot. The conservative revolutionary writer, Hans Blüher, writes:>One has to realize that the decline of the Greeks and the emergence of samesex love did not temporally coincide. Precisely the opposite occurred: The decline and disapprobation of this so highly cultivated love-directionality played out simultaneously with the decline of Hellas as a historical phenomenon.
>>24818111So what you're telling me is that the Aryan elite were all fine with homosexuality and the mass of swarthy slaves wasn't? Ok cool bro
>>24818109>Hitler lectured me on the role of homosexuality in history and politics. It had destroyed ancient Greece, he said. Once rife, it extended its contagious effects like an ineluctable law of nature to the best and most manly of characters, eliminating from the reproductive process those very men on whose offspring a nation depended.Rudolf Diels, Lucifer Ante Portas, 1950
>>24818095Provide direct, first hand evidence of Alexander's faggotry.otherwise yes, I do dismiss 'sources' hundreds of years after the fact
>>24818117the ancient greeks weren't retarded like modern faggots, so even the biggest boylover kept a foidslave who was never allowed to see the light of day around for reproduction
>>24818122I was just responding to that anti-fag pic which cited Plutarch too
>>24818114Yeah, that's why homosexuality is so prevalent in the Iliad and the Odyssey, or why Cato the Elder was such an infamous faggot...oh wait.Also all of the people you listed were upper class.
>>24818130>IliadMentions that zesty Ganymede shit>Cato the Elder Roman>all of the people you listed were upper class.You mean like every Greek anyone knows of
>>24818127I'm responding to youProvide direct, first hand evidence of Alexander's faggotry.Oh wait, you can't. You will never admit it, so go ahead and reply with some backpedaling blubber or snark
>>24818134I never pretended that I could provide "direct, first hand evidence." I don't believe there is any - apart perhaps from a letter attributed to Diogenes where he chastises Alexander for being too devoted to "Hephaestion's thighs". That's about the only example I can think of. But you've introduced a new standard of evidence. I just think it's funny that the picture selectively quoted Plutarch to portray Alexander as some kind of anti-faggot, when the same source depicts him as publicly enamored of a eunuch.
On the same subject, does anyone have the latin text of Altercatio Ganimedis et Helene? I can’t find it anywhere, only the English translation. It’s in Mittellateinisches Jahrbuch 7 (1972) if there are any unifags who might have access to that here
Greek pederasty was an archaic institution that fell out of what society considered permissible during the classical era, which is what everybody thinks off when you mention ancient Greece and when all the Philosophers and most poets lived. Roman "pederasty" was just straight up sadistic SM rape.
>This is the great idea of magicians in all times: to obtain a Messiah by some adaptation of the sexual process. In Assyria, they tried incest; also in Egypt, the Egyptians tried brothers and sisters; the Assyrians, mothers and sons. Phoenicians tried fathers and daughters; Greeks and Syrians, mostly bestiality. This idea came from India.>The Greeks further employed this debased form of their mysteries with the pedicatio puerorum which would go on to influence the Mithraic cult, the Templars, etc. Gayreeks were pedo furries lmao you can't make this shit up
>>24818258Negroid sperm ahh quote
>>24818092Getting sodomized by other men is the Aryan way. (((They))) want you to waste your seed on (((women))) and get trapped into being shackled with offspring instead of conquering new lands and posting on 4chan.
>>24818347Who said anything about being a pathicus and not having kids
Uh... Classical languages?I signed out of my pc earlier this morning and just got home it took me like 7 attempts entering my password before it finally let me in. Was really spooky for awhile since I know I 100% entered it correctly every single timeCrazy that this is the first time it has ever happened and it came shortly after W10 security goes away...
>>24817408Kek this is such a good image because it’s the only time I ever see any sources get brought up. Not to continue shitting up the thread with this, so the only one i’ll point out since I mentioned it previously is the Plutarch quote, since Plutarch was a Roman writing several centuries later, and he clearly says “some say.” There’s any number of reasons the Romans might even outright lie, or any other secondary source.
>>24817835Oh look 5 secondary sources writing things totally contrary to the character of the man depicted in primary sources. Who would’ve thought.
where did this christcuck magatard tourist come from? is this a poltard raid?
>>24817891Hey, we’re not the ones exhaustively scouring secondary sources and traveling the world doing speaking events to try to prove “it” through force of institutional weight and cultural pressure more than rigorous skeptical source-analysis (without ever even properly defining the core claim so we can dance around it).Classicists often make a mockery of the discipline of History.
>>24818452>secondary sources>”WOWEE I LOVE HISTORY. BASED!!”>secondary sources when I'm displeased by the implication>”Erm you know that the veracity of these is problematic, right sweaty?”
>>24818127The “anti-fag” pic is a meme and is pro-fag idiot. It’s called a joke.>>24818095It is, depending on the context and if it contradicts prior primary sources. That’s just how History works.
>>24817891>be pedo >use gay as camo or is it the same thing?
>>24818471I don't know you'd have to consult an expert of such things like the christians or republicans
>>24818472>muh politicsah let's act like the past decade never happened level 1 retard
>bring up fags in Greece out of the blue>someone acts skeptical>spam thread a million times angrily and use adhom when they ask for some strange thing called a “primary source”>throw a German writing 2300 years later out>misinterpret a meme and seethe angrily at it that is trying to support my positionYou retards brought the subject up out of nowhere, as always. Perhaps it’s my responsibility just to ignore and not respond. Just feels so low-brow to be all>HURR DURR THE GREEKS LE ALL BUTSECKEDAnd then spazz out when asked to back that up, or even just to explain what you mean. (By not explaining what they even mean they can constantly redefine their position every time an old one is defeated, because their goal isn’t honest pursuit of history or the classics, it is a feeling of cultural domination.>>24818457I feel no particular connection to a bunch of pagans, Christians had every reason even to lie about past civilizations anyways lol, this doesn’t hurt us at all. The past civilization that they conquered also fed Christians to lions and had sex islands. Some of the philosophers being fags is no big deal, I just take issue with how unserious and, well, faggy the manner in which the position is pushed. Just a lot of “my professor said so” and freaking out under the smallest challenge to their “knowledge.”If that is such a problem, go back to your containment board on /tttt/.
>>24818488>out of the blueOP always chooses something random for the thread editio. nobody was spazzing out over the Delphic charioteer in the last thread, but this time he chose “eromenos” and all the magatard christcucks come out of the woodwork seething about how LE GREEKS WERE BASED AND HAD THE SAME MORALS AS A 2025 EVANGELICAL BRO THIS IS PROPAGANDA
>>24818488go back to pol
>>24818535(nta)I'm the usual OP, I didn't make this edition
>>24818535You’re assuming you’re arguing with one anon and responding in such an intentionally dishonest fashion that you’re no longer worth responding to. Please stop shitting up the thread.>>24818540You anons brought up politics with >>24816857 You go back.
>>24818543Is some tranny discord trying to hijack clg?
>>24818557Can’t wait for the BOS NVBIANVS editio
>>24818557idk, could be the usual buck broken troll obsessed with the general knowing there would be the usual shitstorm when the topic appears in general on /lit/, I mean I'm fine with it, the OP technically depicts Briseis and pederasty was a thing, albeit the association with "gays" it's kinda retarded since it was much closer to pedofilia and they were fundamentally attracted to feminine attributes, hence the custom stopping at the sign of first beards
Should I actually go giga-nitpick and learn a little Koine Greek and Hebrew to get further understanding of Bible verses?
>>24818566The cup in the op doesn’t depict Briseis, the painter who made it is called the Briseis painter after one of his more well known works
>>24818567Grind it out more in Latin.
>>24817834>famously rode Boucephalas.In battle by day, but at night he was riding Hephaestion
>>24817981What is the translation? Not all of us can read classical chinkgook
>There's absolutely nothing in history that suggests greeks were gay!!!>just ignore the fact that gay relationships were so common that the word lesbian comes from a greek island!
>>24818594>>just ignore the fact that gay relationships were so common that the word lesbian comes from a greek island!is that where Opera got her idea for All Girls schools
>>24818594>one woman on one island might have been gay so I can label an entire thousand-year culture as totally gay
is γυνή/γυναίκές pronounced like goonair or guynair similar to gynecology?can't seem to be able to find a good place that has pronunciations
>>24818708υ = ee in meet but with your lips roundedη = e in bed but long
>not doing any exercises>just doing readers Am I missing out on anything? I guess I don't feel like I can compose anything. Also i don't think Inwill learn accents properly this way
>>24818488>posting primary sources without comment = "my professor said so"
>>24818593I don't think there's an English translation, and I don't want to translate it myself. I think you genuinely have to be a bit of a paedophile to find poems like that, it's really not mainstream in China or the west.
>>24818820No primary source quotations re:fags in Greece have been postedYou don't know what a secondary source is
>>24817451>In quo decor et honestas delegit hospicium;It seems like the meter here calls for the stress to be on the first syllable, but when I look it up it's on the second because it's long.
>>24818567Yes. (Learning Hebrew also means you have access to a lot more firsthand information about the reality on the ground in Israel without having to trust media and translators, if it matters.)
>>24818831I'm the person who posted about it, I learned about it from a friend who studies Classical Chinese and is gay, at some point he went looking for CC texts dealing in some way with the subject of homosexuality. It was also from him that I learned of 詠少年 by 吳均.
>>24817323Some of them were DEFINITELY hippie dippie.
>>24817385They lived in a leisurely land and had high wealth. That alone is going to make some things happen.
>>24818708γυνή is pronounced like gynhee or guynhee>>24818731υ=yή=hee
>>24819864geenee(hard g)
>>24819871This is Classical thread is it not?It may have hard g but Upsalon should not pronounce the same as heta.
>>24818708/ɡy.nɛ̌ː/see: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:International_Phonetic_Alphabet
>>24819884ee ee ee ee ee ee ee ee
>>24819864Specifically y as in Finnish y, like French u or German ü.
>>24819924German like in English rhu? So γυνή would sound in English as guhnee or>>24819897Hghuhnee? (Flowing subtle g)
>>24819940Please just learn the fucking IPA. There are some good YouTube videos on it and it makes trying to talk about pronunciation over text infinitely less frustrating.
>>24818087Great men have always been gay. When you get to be at the top of the hierarchy, anything goes
>>24819940If you click on the IPA symbols in the link I just provided, you'll find audio recordings for each of them. You'll find your answers there.If that's too hard for you, watch those videos :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS5POB2rLswhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzn9PZ2SFWE
>>24819946Talk it up for me a bit. First off, this is a classical thread and modern Greek is different. Secondly is iPad universal, as in any starting letter followed by another letter makes a unique sounds of its own?Thirdly, if there's one thing Wikipedia sucks at its the pronunciation method it uses. The example format is atrocious and its further descriptions read like sparse computer programmers afterthoughts.I would learn it for modern Greek but not for classical if it doesn't apply. Meaning its some modern language helper.
>>24819965>Talk it up for me a bit. First off, this is a classical thread and modern Greek is different.Yes, we are talking about ancient Greek pronunciation. In modern Greek it would be /ʝiˈni/, with ʝ representing the sound of Spanish Y.>Secondly is iPad universal, as in any starting letter followed by another letter makes a unique sounds of its own?I don't understand your phrasing, but the IPA is universal, yes.
>>24819960>trusting what caillou says
>>24820018You may dislike him personally, but when it comes to ancient Greek pronunciation he knows what he's talking about.
>>24820021except he's not Greek so no he doesn't
>>24820026Why must one be Greek to know what one is talking about in regards to ancient Greek pronunciation, especially when Greek pronunciation has changed so much since ancient times?
>>24820034Because it hasn't changed so there's no reason to listen to people who use (((Anglo))) "scientifically reconstructed" pronunciation, only modern Greeks or fluent speakers of modern Greek.
>>24820021What dialect?
>>24819761the song of the yue boatman is gay enough
>>24820044There is no language on Earth that is pronounced exactly the same today as it was 2,500 years ago, and Greek is not an exception.>>24820045Classical Attic and Koine mainly, I think.
>>24820054>There is no language on Earth that is pronounced exactly the same today as it was 2,500 years ago, and Greek is not an exception.Yeah it is. We just built different
>>24820065So why did the ancient Greeks invent six different ways to spell /i/, somehow keep which words used which straight before dictionaries let alone spell checkers, and then start mixing them up at different times (mixing up ει with ι starting to appear before the confusion of η with either, and υ and οι being the last to start getting mixed up with them)?
>>24820075Because before the time of classical Attic these were different sounds but by classical times the pronunciations ossified and became still what we have now.
>>24820081and second point so stupid? even illiterate retard greeks nowadays can keep words with similar sounds separate without dictionary why could not Plato and other geniuses
>>24820081So you think that it was pronounced differently at some point but most of the sound shifts happened way earlier than we think? So why did the Romans transliterate φ as ph when they already had f, or transliterate η and υ differently than ι (while having no issue transliterating ει the same)?
>>24820090why should i give a fuck a single fuck a bunch of non-greeks write greek why don't you ask ngubu in nigeria to write greek too that's how modern greek must be then i guess? yeah exactly
>>24819946You seem like an esl. Nothing wrong with that but im still not sure what point you were making about the word pronunciation. >>24820054Attic made Koine made Modern.Doric was the dialect of Major shrines and Olympics in classical Greece.>>24820075If you read old English spelling wasn't really totally standardized before the 20th century. That's what happens before standardized dictionarys are sent to everyone and mass media tech becomes commonplace. Just imagine it, the freedom to write as you alone see fit. And yes classical and ancient Greek were much more polytonic than today.
>>24820106This is a CLASSICAL Greek thread. On an American image board. We're not going to Greece to tell them they're saying it wrong. Don't make us say mean things.
>>24820115I assume these threads are mostly filled by Europeans
>>24820106Why exactly do you think it occurred to them to transliterate two letters with the exact same sound differently?>>24820108>You seem like an esl.It's my first language.>im still not sure what point you were making about the word pronunciation.My point is that without some standard universal system like the IPA it's frustrating to try to communicate about pronunciation over text.>If you read old English spelling wasn't really totally standardized before the 20th century.Yes, and similarly in Greek- but there are types of spelling variation you do and don't see.
What's your favourite graffiti from Pompeii?Picrel is mine.
Greek in Byzantine mosaics are so cool
>>24819761ok so that's the excuse he gave you for knowing about the serving boy paedo shi instead of any of the other thousands of poems about being gay
>>24820758I don't know that that's all that he knew about, that was just one of the ones he shared with me when the topic came up. What other ones do you know of, though? I'd be very much interested.
>vi vi
ἀπιστώτατον τοῖς πολλοῖσιν εἴη κεν τὴν ῥᾳδιότητα τοῦ /κλγ/ σκώπτειν αἰεὶ κατὰ τὥμοια φλυαρήματα
>>24816748machine translation> catamite >Author: Xiao Gang > The beauty of the child is super flawed > The feather tent is full of morning fragrance, and the pearl curtain leaks in the evening > The emerald quilt contains mandarin color, and the carved bed is carved with ivory > Miao Nian and Xiao Shi are more beautiful than the morning glow > Sleeve cut Lianbi brocade Woven fine mullet flowers > The pants are lightly red, and the temples are slanted > smiles when she squints her eyes, and her jade hands are just picking up flowers > Huai guessed that it was not a post-fishing secret love like a car in front of it > is enough to make Yan Ji jealous and make Zheng Nu sigh>This dissertation focuses on an emperor-poet, Xiao Gang (503-551, r. 550-551), who lived during a period called the Six Dynasties in China. He was born a prince during the Liang Dynasty, became Crown Prince upon his older brother's death, and eventually succeeded to the crown after the Liang court had come under the control of a rebel. He was murdered by the rebel before long and was posthumously given the title of "Emperor of Jianwen" by his younger brother Xiao Yi (508-554). Xiao's writing of amorous poetry was blamed for the fall of the Liang Dynasty by Confucian scholars, and adverse criticism of his so-called "decadent" Palace Style Poetry has continued for centuries.
>>24821274Feeding Classical Chinese into a Mandarin -> English translator and expecting the result to make sense is like feeding Latin into an Italian -> English translator and expecting the result to make sense.
>>24821657post your translation or shut the fuck up
