>>24914151
first for friendly discussion without ad hominem

>>24914151
Ist Deutsch eine Klassikersprache?

>>24914189
barbarbarbar

>>24914189
Neuhochdeutsch nicht; Mittelhochdeutsch und Altdeutsch schon.

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>>24914221
less go

>>24914535
Is it me or is the author compensating with that lengthy preface to basically explain to God and the wider audience why his intentions in discussing the Antichrist are good? Neat read.

I originally made these for beginner reading practice but as my fluency has made some breakthroughs I’m thinking the wordcount is too low, so maybe I ought to edit it to be something like 500-1000 words, idk.

Maybe 100 words for beginners and 1000 for intermediates, not sure how I’d list that though.

>>24914584
seems more like he wants to really demonstrate his total loyalty and subservience to the queen and her king
maybe keep the last two digits for the author, then the third digit is how many hundreds of words? e.g I should read 500 words of author 35
the random element makes things more fun

>>24914597
Nah gotta have variation for trips and dubs.


Anyways, would Occitan count as a classical language here? All the literature of note is medieval, and living speakers seem to only exist on census data. Alexander Arguelles said when he traveled through France and across the Alps he couldn’t find anyone who spoke it at the Occitan societies he went to, but managed to even find Romansh speakers to teach him in Switzerland. I’m considering reading some poetry since I have some french ability besides my Latin.

>>24914791
sure, as long as you're dealing with essentially a literary language it's fitting for /clg/

>>24913914
But the Romans did pronounce the long and short vowels distinctly! They just didn't find it necessary to mark it in writing because it was obvious for a fluent speaker. But someone who's learning Latin is not yet a fluent speaker.

reconstructed pronunciation and its consequences have been a disaster for the Latin language

>>24915501
Actually pronouncing Latin how its native speakers did is a disaster?

>>24915504
That’s funny because RP niggas be doin shit like pronouncing H at the start of words when the Romans didn’t do that, the W sound had switched to a V before the golden age was even over, and the Late Latin of the patristic age didn’t even pronounce final consonants on a lot of endings. It’s not “how Romans spoke,” it is an educated guess on certain sounds, which are probably correct, as to how things were pronounced for like a 100 year period. Then manually grafting those sounds on top of the existing Latin pronunciation already in existence, and mocking and shitting on the other 1800 years of Latin preceding the invention of RP following the death of Cicero.

Beyond that, it just sounds kind of bad, but I do think dipthongs are cool.

>>24915562
>pronouncing H at the start of words when the Romans didn’t do that
They certainly did at some point, or how'd they decided which words were to have an <h>?
>the W sound had switched to a V before the golden age was even over
Sure, but the original Classical Latin had W.
>and the Late Latin of the patristic age didn’t even pronounce final consonants on a lot of endings
Yeah but that's not the target.
>It’s not “how Romans spoke,” it is an educated guess on certain sounds, which are probably correct, as to how things were pronounced for like a 100 year period.
Well yeah, it's one particular variety of Latin. But traditional pronunciations are not how any native speaker ever spoke it. (They're still a valid convention, though it's unfortunate that they lack vowel length since that's the heart of poetic meter.)

>>24915575
>They certainly did at some point, or how'd they decided which words were to have an <h>?
Yeah nigga that’s called a different dialect from an earlier, and therefore non-classical, period.

>Sure, but the original Classical Latin
Define your timeframe. I used the accepted golden age timeframe to point out that during the supposed peak of Latin, the W->V shift already happened. That there were Golden Age authors that didn’t say Weeny Weedy Weeky.


Fundamentally, use whatever floats your boat. But reconstructedfags deserve to be teased from time to time, because Latin is probably the most pointlessly elitist and pretentious field in all of academia, somehow managing to edge out sociology, in spite of the beauty and wonder of the Latin language and the treasure that our tradition is.

>>24914189
No, the classical languages in the West are Classical Latin and Classical Greek (Attic Greek). These used to be called "the learned languages", which is the same thing as "classical languages". This was contrasted with "vernaculars" which are German, French, Italian, Spanish etc. Classical languages are basically conlangs of the elite, based on the vernacular; the classical language Classical Latin was based on the vernacular Vulgar Latin. Kind of like how some classical music composers took folk melodies and made them more elaborate to where they were works of classical music, I heard some good example of this but can't remember what it was, so chatgpt info will have to do:

>bartok romanian folk dances
>beethoven variations on folk melodies
>brahms hungarian dances
>haydn op 20 and op 33

https://youtu.be/6HXy0iC6wyM
https://youtu.be/MVt85w21MoQ

>>24915504
This is the classical languages general, we discuss classical languages here. Nobody ever had a classical language as their native language. The native Latin was Vulgar Latin, Classical Latin was acquired by the educated class through their education, not through hearing their mother speak in infancy. Arabs today have to study Classical Arabic in order to be able to understand the Quran, they don't grow up speaking Quranic/Classical Arabic, and nobody ever did.

>>24914189
does it have a classical period?

>>24915720
>written English in books is no one's native language
>we speak Vulgar English

>>24916099
All of English is a vulgar language/vernacular language. Vulgar Latin and Classical Latin didn't even have the same grammar.

>>24914791
Frenchfag here.
Occitan is definitely a classical language.
Courtly love poetry is worth the read. It's mostly intelligible if you speak basic French, but it's better with a French translation. Kind of like Chaucer.

I don't know about the Félibrige faggots. Occitan as an "Oc" French language is an ingredient of modern French. Modern Occitan more of a dialect than a distinct language. Contrary to other French languages like Corsican, Catalan, and Breton there are very few places where it is actually spoken.

However a lot of valleys, villages and city have Occitan/Provençal dialects they use when talking with one another, that have a lot of Occitan/Provençal words and dialectal grammar. But it's basically country French....

Treating modern Occitan as a language is a bit ridiculous in my opinion, although classical Occitan literature is legit.

>>24916069
Klassiker in German are things like Goethe and Schiller, that's just regular modern German (for the most part, but surely closer than Shakespeare and modern English is).
Middle High German has a classical period that extends roughly from 1050 to 1350.

>>24914791
>classical language = dead language
no

>>24915718
This takes it too far. A literary register is not a separate language.

>>24916199
More than just being dead, it’s specifically a Koine of various dialects originally used solely for the composition of poetry and songs.

While maybe a prestige koine used for centuries from Catolonia to Lombardy specifically for poetry and courtly music isn’t a classical language in terms of prestige, it’s not like I’m boutta go create a “prestige-koine-but-not-quite-classical” general.

There's something so uniquely frustrating about getting one or two letters of a Latin sentence wrong and as a result, misunderstanding the whole sentence and possibly the paragraph.

>>24916172
Thanks for the advice. I read somewhere that mutual intelligibility of spoken Occitan and French is quite low. I think the orthographic similarities of modern provencal make it look deceptively similar to French but when I look at much older texts it appears much more Spanish-like.

>>24916301
Yeah, music is music, jazz and Mozart are really the same because both use piano.
>>24916305
Learn what greentext means. I was quoting. No, a classical language is not used solely for poetry and songs.

>>24916364
Both are true.
But French speakers in the region already have the Provençal or Southern accent, which can be quite thick. If you're well accustomed to the accent you can understand Occitan, but otherwise I guess it is quite hard.

The "Oc" languages are closer to Latin. Northern medieval French was closer to Dutch and German. Both mixed into French, the vocabulary and grammar were heavily relatinized and Greek words added in the 16th cent. While I read that Occitan used to be closer to Spanish, I've read the same with Catalan which would have diverged in the late Middle Ages. I'm not knowledgeable with either subject, though part of my family was French Catalan and Catalan and Occitan speakers in the 19th century. They also spoke French as accentless French was necessary to be considered a bourgeois (Standard French lost a lot of intonations and accentuation at the time).

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What's the optimal book for learning Ancient Greek? Is this one any good or should I use 2?

>>24916525
Any time spent on looking for the optimal textbook is better spent on learning with even just a half-decent textbook.

>>24916160
There existed, at some point, Latin speakers who learned a version with six cases, synthetic passives etc at their mother's knee. Perhaps the literary register was a bit more polished, but the features present in Latin but not Romance are not whole cloth inventions.

>>24916393
Makes sense. I saw that 15th century catalan song riu riu chiu and it definitely seems way more visibly Spanish, while Occitan appears more French, but they’re supposed to be closer by lineage to each other than to the national tongues of their respective countries. Actually with riu riu chiu it came on in a medieval playlist and I honestly thought it was Occitan because I’d never heard spoken Catalan before.

>>24917209
Wait Riu Riu Chiu is in old spanish my bad.

Still you can see the overt similarities with Catalan here as opposed to French or Spanish. Even the word choice of commencement could just as easily be a matter of translation tradition than of real linguistic similarities/differences.
>In princípio erat Verbum, et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum.
>En el principio era el Verbo, y el Verbo era con Dios, y el Verbo era Dios.
>Al principi existia el Verb, i el Verb era amb Déu, i el Verb era Déu
>Al començament èra lo Verbe, e lo Verbe èra amb Déu, e lo Verbe èra Déu.
>Au commencement était la Parole, et la Parole était avec Dieu, et la Parole était Dieu.

>>24916525

I'm using these 3 links:

https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=146575969
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4FyHj2CA30dFvtLPcFheTRSxNF9sEJqW
https://archive.org/details/anabasisofxenoph00xenoiala

Here are some other links to look at, also look through the links in the OP:

https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=144953026
https://www.open.edu/openlearn/history-the-arts/getting-started-on-ancient-greek
https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0264
https://archive.org/details/beginnersgreekb00smytgoog
https://archive.org/details/agreekgrammarfo00waddgoog
https://archive.org/details/greekforbeginne00coygoog
https://archive.org/details/greekgrammarfors00hadl
https://www.textkit.com/t/the-textkit-book-collection/17987
https://www.youtube.com/@AlphawithAngela

>>24916198
ist Deutscher Idealismus Klassiker?

>>24916761
From what I've read Vulgar Latin and Classical Latin existed at the same time, Vulgar Latin had a simpler grammar and was also divided into many regional variants. There is no equivalent in English but just for sake of comparison say the average Joe says "who did you give it to?" and someone who has a high level of education says "to whom did you give it?" Then you have a case distinction made by the latter, but not by the former.

I made this thread 5 days ago specifically for those of us that are learning vernaculars and want a more highbrow discussion than that on /int/, you're welcome to post there. This thread is about classical languages.

>>24905503

>>24917706
>don’t discuss medieval Latin’s development into vernaculars in the Latin thread goy

>>24917751
Didn't see any such discussion. There has been discussion of the difference between classical languages and vernaculars, and then several posts about German, French etc. I didn't quote any posts so that posters can determine for themselves whether what I said applies to their posts, if it didn't apply to yours then it wasn't for you, still anybody is welcome to go there and discuss Schiller, Goethe etc. We need more posters there, as far as I know there are no threads on this entire site for foreign languages except this one, the coombrain thread on /int/, and mine, which is surprising, but I guess learning languages isn't popular.

>>24917761
okay nigger well until the Jannies remove my posts you can go fuck yourself. Did Hiroshimoot commit seppuku and make you shogun?

>>24917226

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Legentibus© subscriptionem uni anni emi ob Nigram Feriam-Sextam. Dedum Ranieri-Legentibus Methodum™ possum inire!

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>>24918150
>Dedum

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Translation challenge:

Easy
Where have you been?
The bear chased the dogs away.
Do not sell that fish, it's spoiled!

Medium
Without his advices I wouldn't have succeeded.
He concluded his statement by remembering famous words of wisdom.
The weaponsmith received many inquiries on whether he was using locally sourced iron or imported.

Hard
The more the king attempted to appease the mob, the least they appeared to obey, so, having considered all options, he planned to let them choose a leader of their own to lead the state while at the same time secretly provoke a war with the powerful neighboring state, hoping that the clash might eventually result in the return of the political primacy of his throne as it was before the internal chaos began to take root.

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Any recommendations for reading Li Bai in translation? I know there's a few chinamen lurking around here.

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>>24918613
Ubinam fuisti?
Ursus canes consectatus in fugam dedit.
Noli istunc vendere piscem, putidust!

Sine eius praeceptis male cessissem.
Orationem conficit revocans inclita sapientium verba.
Faber crebro rogitabatur num ferrum in situ acquireret aut invectum.

Quo magis turmam conabatur in gratiam reducere eo minus obtemperantem concinnabat rex ergo, omnibus oppido exploratis, consilium cepit potestatem iis facere ducis sibi faciundi reipublicae regendo se eodem tempore ad bellum magni momenti finitimos ciente, ea spe, ut armis conflictis se suamque gentem tandem rursum praepollentem redderet sicut ante ortos civitatis tumultos.

>>24918705
Fuller, Michael 2017 an introduction to Chinese poetry

but I recommend this book much more if you want to read Chinese poetry in translation:
Weinberger, Eliot 1987 Nineteen ways of looking at Wang Wei

Chinese poetry depends on structure and format which makes it difficult to translate into English
and many allusions which are opaque without a ton of footnotes

Why is an approach not unlike the philosophy of learning in Pharr’s Homeric Greek not recommended more for Latin, for example Pharr’s Aeneid + grammar reference? Here and elsewhere on the internet you’re encouraged to spend hundreds of hours on LLPSI for the sake of comprehensible input, but the end result is you can read a few ten thousand words of boring pseudo-Latin, which you’re probably going to discard after a year. While it’s true that with this method, you wouldn’t really be reading Aeneid rather than decoding it like a puzzle, you’d become intimately familiar with a real Latin text with a mountain of vocab. You’d have a great foundation for when you came back to it later with more knowledge and experience. Due to the nature of poetry you’d gain a better sense of how to feel and visualize Latin. And, most importantly I think, it’s an engaging story that’s pleasing to go back and reread.

>>24918872
Just the never ending debate between how heavy you should focus on explicit study early on vs later. All should be done eventually. I think a lot of it is just preference really and whatever gets you studying. Reading-first got me studying more, so I did reading-first. People exaggerate the amount of time you will or should spend on readers. Like yeah, rereading a single text like familia romana is great for vocabulary acquisition and grammar internalization, it’s what I did, but it should always be with the conscious goal of moving into native texts and just using word lookups or a parallel translation (as your vocabulary expands). I moved into seriously reading the gospels (had dabbled) around LLPSI chapter 14 and it helped my general abilities immensely. Latin by the Natural Method recommends students start glossed or parallel reading of the gospels and/or genesis as early as half a high-school year into study, or 2 months of university study.

>>24918872
>And, most importantly I think, it’s an engaging story that’s pleasing to go back and reread.
Absolutely nothing wrong with grinding out a text far beyond your level and then rereading it because then you’ll develop a lot of fluency and intuition upon rereading.

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>>24915501
me? I even pronounce ae as ai

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I am definitely totally absolutely gonna learn Greek one day. Just hope that this general is still around by then - whenever it happens - so that I can practice my Greek with anons.

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>>24918572
*Demum

Which author/genre have you read the most scholarly works on?
Which have you dedicated yourself the most to?

>>24917674
"Don't end a sentence with a preposition" has no basis in English usage, it's based on blindly importing Latin rules to English.

Finally reading the (Latin) Aeneid in full.
About to start book VII.
Wish me luck, anons.

>>24919897
Good luck anon, just finished book I myself

>>24914151
Thanks for keeping this thread going. I'm not ready to start my study of Ancient Greek just yet, but I very much hope that you guys will still be discussing it when I am.

>>24919621
>>24919970
Start now, even with just basic single sentence shitposts. At worst you'll have people correct you, but that's still a good thing.

>>24919999
I would but I'm still maintaining a few other languages while I work on my Latin fluency.

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Studying Latin was a mistake. It's lost all magic, and it's just exposed itself as a basically retarded language inferior to English in basically every way.

>>24920314
Elaborate.

>>24919999
You know what? Maybe I will. Perhaps a few minutes a day will prove to be better than nothing, and may gradually evolve into more serious study. Who knows. I'll try for a daily shitpost. Thanks friend!
>>24920314
Latin is an incredibly flexible and beautiful language, I have no idea what you are talking about. Ancient and archaic languages in general are much more powerful and beautiful than many, if not all modern ones. Apart from English, I know one more language which, just like English, was similarly flattened and mutilated, lost its cases etc. Seeing what can be done when these structures are still present in a language is very inspiring.

>>24920314
>>24920426
English is a more precise and analytically powerful language than Latin, and that’s okay. I still love Latin, it just makes me appreciate my mother tongue more as well.

>>24920507
I am not a linguist - can you give me an exampke I can understand? If anything, I think cases add a lot more precision, since having to specifying subject and object in complex English language sentences can sometimes take a ton of extra words if precision is necessary.

>>24920519
I like it. It is pretty. It is elegant. It is wonderful. It is subjective. I shouldn’t have used a loaded term like “precision” because I’ll wake the autists that think having 15 cases for saying “the” in German is “precise.” I guess I should have said English is “straightforward and has a lot of synonyms.”

>>24920583
funnily enough there is actually a word for that in German, it's "straightforwardandhasalotofsynonymsworden"

>>24920507
>analytically powerful
what does that even mean

>>24920583
so you made no argument whatsoever, good to know

>>24920779
Shut up nigger

>>24920736
Kek

>>24920773
Idk dude just my subjective opinion. I’m not a linguist. It’s also the opinion of native French speakers, Korean speakers, Chinese speakers, Spanish speakers, and Japanese speakers that I’ve known. I’ve certainly never had a foreign friend complain that English was too vague.

>>24920798
>Idk dude just my subjective opinion
What exactly is your opinion? You didn't state a clear opinion, and then didn't back it up at all. Your posts suck.

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>>24920802

>>24920839
State a clear opinion and back it up with anything at all. Or stfu.

>>24920850
Name 3 languages

>>24920867
>I think some thing
>I just do ok
>I'm entitled to my opinion
>seethe about it
Brainlet

>>24920426
>Ancient and archaic languages in general are much more powerful and beautiful than many, if not all modern ones.
This is nonsense, linguistically speaking.

>>24921019
You only take issue when someone speaks positively about a modern language without evidence but not when people say nonstop without backing it up that classical tongues are more precise/powerful/etc.

>>24921321
Learn basic argumentation.

>>24921038
I am not a linguist so I can't prove my case to you, but I have read enough opinion pieces by people who understand the topic to know that my position is correct. Just in my lifetime I have seen both English and my native language grow increasingly impoverished. A while before I was born, my native language also went through a language reform to flatten the grammar and orthography. The same happened to Russian. And to Mandarin. And to Greek as well, which has an exceptionally interesting history. I have done a little bit of study into languages in my broader language family that did not flatten their grammar, and I can see the difference in the versatility and fluidity of the language, without me even needing an understanding of the systematic function of language as presumably a linguistics education would have given me.

>>24914151
Greeting frens.

Regarding Classical Greek, which dialect should one learn over others and why?

Ta for the help.

>>24921435
once you learn Attic the others won't be too difficult, Attic is the standard start for prestige and being the basis of Koine, some chads start with Homeric, I can't vouch personally

>>24921428
I just don’t think you’re worth arguing with :^)

>>24921431
>Just in my lifetime I have seen both English and my native language grow increasingly impoverished.
For what value of impoverished? What could you express in them before that you can't now?
>A while before I was born, my native language also went through a language reform to flatten the grammar
A language institution cannot dictate the actual grammar of a language, though they can prescribe or proscribe certain usages in formal contexts. (What language?)
>and orthography.
Orthography is not language. English would still be English even if it was written in Cyrillic or Hangul or Devanagari, or Shavian, or IPA, or whatever.
>The same happened to Russian. And to Mandarin.
I'm aware of their orthographic reforms (and again, orthography is not language), but what happened to their grammar?
>And to Greek as well, which has an exceptionally interesting history.
By which you mean they started writing how they actually speak instead of pretending it's still Antiquity.
>I have done a little bit of study into languages in my broader language family that did not flatten their grammar, and I can see the difference in the versatility and fluidity of the language
What exactly do you mean by versatility and fluidity? What can those languages be used for that yours can't?
>without me even needing an understanding of the systematic function of language as presumably a linguistics education would have given me.
If you had a linguistics education you would understand that one natural human language is not intrinsically better or worse than another.

>>24921627
>A language institution cannot dictate the actual grammar of a language
Shhh don’t make the classics departments post-1850 mad

>>24921435
Attic. Athens was more liberal and a lot of the surviving Greek texts are in Attic.
>>24921460
Isn't Homeric archaic Greek rather than classical Greek?
>>24921627
>For what value of impoverished? What could you express in them before that you can't now?
I can express very many things, but increasingly few people would understand. My native language has actually completely degenerated into some kind of Anglicised creole and it is genuinely impossible now to have a discussion with the younger people in the proper language.
>A language institution cannot dictate the actual grammar of a language, though they can prescribe or proscribe certain usages in formal contexts. (What language?)
Bulgarian language. Although I should admit that I should perhaps have stayed quiet on this point. It seems my understanding of the history of language reform is not good. And I am seeing some people claim that Bulgarian has among some of the most complex grammars in Europe, which is the polar opposite of what I believed. Unfortunately it's still relatively useless to me for learning other languages due to the radically different case system.
Even more broadly, I am probably just not the right person to be having this conversation. I think this position has merit and I would like to defend it, but I simply do not know enough. I know a number of language experts, in Greekm, Latin, classical Chinese. And they have told me their observations of the richness of the ancient languages, and the differences with their modern successors. But I myself do not know them much at all, and cannot argue the point. Apologies.
>By which you mean they started writing how they actually speak instead of pretending it's still Antiquity.
This one I actually have to object to. Modern Greek language reform is a genuinely fascinating subject, and while the "Demotic" camp is considered to have triumphed at the end, the archaic revival and Katharevousa left a very significant mark on the language, its literary history, and its current form (including its case system).
>What exactly do you mean by versatility and fluidity? What can those languages be used for that yours can't?
I've noticed in Russian and in Latin extreme conciseness and flexibility of word placements is possible that is not viable in Bulgarian or in English. Some of it is owed to the fact that the 'be' verb can be omitted, but the cases are also necessary.
>If you had a linguistics education you would understand that one natural human language is not intrinsically better or worse than another.
Ignoring the word 'intrinsically' (which would be doing a lot of heavy lifting here) I think that is your own opinion based on some theory you have accepted. Perhaps I should study linguistics, and I would be happy if I can find the time and energy for it. But I am sure there are many linguists who have and continue to argue among the same lines.

Can’t tell who’s baiting who. This general grows increasingly schizophrenic by the day.

>>24921792
I am not baiting anyone. But I am sorry if the general is declining in quality. I used to come here occasionally many months ago. It was pretty comfy then, even though people were already complaining about a decline in quality.

>>24921615
You have made 0 arguments in this thread. You know nothing about arguments. You're not alone, very many people these days know nothing about arguments. Read a book about arguments, it will benefit you greatly. I know because I used to know nothing about arguments, then I read some books about arguments, and it benefited me greatly.

https://www.juristpanel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/A-Rulebook-for-Arguments_compressed.pdf

>>24921802
The quality is low because of you and your lack of argumentation skills. Fix it by reading the book I linked here: >>24922149

>>24918613
I'll try the hard later

κοῦ ἦσθα;
φύγαδ' ἔτρεψεν τοὺς κύνας ὥρκτος
μὴ τουτονὶ τὸν ἰχθύν πώλεε, σήπει γάρ!

μὴ ὀρθωθεὶς ἑωυτοῦ συμβουλῇσ' οὐχ ἄν εὖ 'χώρησα
λόγον ἐπέρηνεν κλεινὰς παροιμίας ἀναμιμνήσκων
ὁ χαλκεὺς θαμ' εἰρωτάεσκετο κότερον ἐπιχώριος εἴη ὁ ἐχρέεσκετο σίδηρος ἢ 'πακτός

>>24920314
Same anon, I didn't mean this. I was just upset because I was struggling.

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>>24918613
>Hard
ἐπείπερ ὅσον σπουδάζεσκεν τὸν ὄχλον ἐς πειθοῦν καταστέναι τοσοῦτον ἔλασσον πείθεσκον, ὁ βασιλεὺς τἀνυστ' ἐσκεμμένος ἐβουλεύσατο ἐξουσίην μὲν δοῦναί σφισι τοῦ ἄρχοντα καταστέναι, σε δ' ἐς πόλεμον τοὺς μαχίμους γείτονας κρύφα κινήσειν, ἐλπίζων διὰ τὴν σύνοδον τὴν ἀρχὴν πάλιν σεαυτῷ ποιέεσθαι κατὰ τὸν ἦν τρόπον πρὶν ἀφίστασθαι τοὺς ὑπηκόους

>>24923525
>σεαυτῷ
*ἑωυτῷ

>>24920314
You studied Latin for a day and learned that there are no articles.

>>24920332
No. I'm entitled to my opinion. Seethe about it. You wouldn't ask for elaboration if someone said the opposite. Stop baiting. You're lowering the quality of this general.

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latine decertator verbis
minae sunt non praecepta

>>24923306
How long did it take to get to this level, anon?

>>24923657
>>24920773
>>24920798
Download it. Read it.

https://annas-archive.org/search?q=Rulebook+for+arguments

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/454614.A_Rulebook_for_Arguments

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>>24923811
>anglice
non legam

>>24923822
Take it or leave it, faggot/woman. You need it.

>>24923811
Je suis ESL

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>>24923836
>anglice
vapula

>>24923782
been at it for maybe 3-4 years by now

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>analytically powerful
>what does that even mean?
>Idk dude just my subjective opinion. I’m not a linguist. It’s also the opinion of native French speakers, Korean speakers, Chinese speakers, Spanish speakers, and Japanese speakers that I’ve known. I’ve certainly never had a foreign friend complain that English was too vague.

https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=138616989

>>24921627
>>and orthography.
>Orthography is not language. English would still be English even if it was written in Cyrillic or Hangul or Devanagari, or Shavian, or IPA, or whatever.
>>The same happened to Russian. And to Mandarin.
>I'm aware of their orthographic reforms (and again, orthography is not language), but what happened to their grammar?
It could be argued that the abolition of long s has made German poorer. That's because in German compound words the short s was used at the end of part-words as well as at the end of words, this means that today it is ambiguous in writing whether you mean wachs-tube or wach-stube when you write:

Wachstube

But when you had long s you knew which:

Wachstube = wachs-tube
Wachſtube = wach-stube

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>>24921627
>If you had a linguistics education you would understand that one natural human language is not intrinsically better or worse than another.
not an argument

>>24921714
>I think that is your own opinion based on some theory you have accepted. Perhaps I should study linguistics, and I would be happy if I can find the time and energy for it. But I am sure there are many linguists who have and continue to argue among the same lines.
You are right and he is wrong. You're talking to a known troll who never presents any arguments for his statements. He's brainwashed by university. He has no knowledge of critical thinking. You can study linguistics by watching this playlist.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUl4u3cNGP63BZGNOqrF2qf_yxOjuG35j
You'll know very early on that the poster you replied to is wrong. One example of languages not being equal: picrel.
Interesting to note that the troll said nothing when Latin was said to be inferior to English, but when the reverse was said then he came out of the woodwork with his usual non-argument objection "if you had studied linguistics/I'm a linguist/according to linguists".

>>24924103
Are you that nigga that thought “cottidie” was a French word? Are you really reviving the “German’s 50 billion permutations makes it ‘superior’ to English” autism after so little time?

>>24923822
nonne potes aut non vis?

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>>24924109
Ranae nequeunt legere.

>>24924132
mirum est eas computatro uti posse nec legere…

>>24923588
No, I'm genuinely curious what you mean by it, because no two people seem to agree on what constitutes a "superior" or "inferior" trait in a language.
>>24924035
It seems significant that whenever someone brings up an example that's made ambiguous thereby it's always the same one. Surely if there were many they would bring up other ones. In any case it seems like they wouldn't really show up in the same context.
>>24924103
>picrel
There are cases where English is ambiguous and German isn't. There are also cases where the opposite is true, e.g.
>Die Arztin besuchte die Patientin
which could mean either
>The doctor(f) visited the patient(f)
or
>The patient(f) visited the doctor(f)
since feminine nouns are the same in the nominative and accusative and the object is allowed to go before the subject because of case marking.
>Interesting to note that the troll said nothing when Latin was said to be inferior to English, but when the reverse was said then he came out of the woodwork with his usual non-argument objection "if you had studied linguistics/I'm a linguist/according to linguists".
I was the one asking to elaborate.

>>24924429
>No, I'm genuinely curious what you mean by it, because no two people seem to agree on what constitutes a "superior" or "inferior" trait in a language.
I was mocking the guy who made these posts and other posts:
>>24920798
>>24921321

>It seems significant that whenever someone brings up an example that's made ambiguous thereby it's always the same one. Surely if there were many they would bring up other ones. In any case it seems like they wouldn't really show up in the same context.
I didn't say there are many. You said orthography is not language, and that English would be English regardless of which script it's written in. I gave a counterpoint.

>There are also cases where the opposite is true
Yeah there are like 3 examples where German is ambiguous and English isn't, and like 3,000 where the opposite is true, and likewise with Latin vs English. The only good thing about English is that it's easy to learn.

>>24924474
>I was mocking the guy who made these posts and other posts:
He also made this post: >>24921802
I was also mocking this guy: >>24921792

>>24924429
Dude just ignore him, he got BTFOd a thread or two back and is already back on it.

>>24924537
don't post until you have read this book

https://www.juristpanel.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/A-Rulebook-for-Arguments_compressed.pdf

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I know its not really a “classical language,” but I’m currently teaching myself to read and eventually translate Coptic. Anyone know of good, free resources or have book recommendations (solid linguistic Grammars or good dictionaries)?
Thank you.

>>24924554
I'd say it's solidly within the ambit of this thread. As for resources, my first go-tos would usually be Lexilogos, Omniglot, and the "links" section of the Wikipedia page.

>>24917674
Do you perhaps have a porn folder filled with images of Dryden?

>>24920314
You can't ragebait me lalalalala

>>24923822
Waow fundatum

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>>24924109
nolo, si autistissandust de linguarum machinationibus fiat latine ut saltem exerceamur et fortasse risum cieamus

>>24924905
illae nugae anglicae filum vanius reddunt. malam fidem suspicor.

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wrote a short hexameter quadruplet translating a segment of another poem(not Greek), wonder if anyone will recognize it

>δειλῷ μὲν δοκέει αἰεὶ φάος ἠελίοιο
>ὄψεσθαι μεθιέντι μαχῶν ἀπέχοντι τε χάρμης
>αὐτὰρ δ' εἰρήνης ἀνανεύσει γῆρας ὀλεθρίη
>δῶρον κεἰ πότμον βελέεσσι πεφυγμένος εἴη

>>24925819
just remembered γῆρας is neuter so *ὀλέθριον

>>24921714
>Isn't Homeric archaic Greek rather than classical Greek?
true enough, though I think he meant "classical" as in "ancient" not the classical period specifically

>>24925819
>δοκέει
Why are there two eta's?

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>>24926342
*epsilon
Homeric and Ionic don't contract nearby vowels regularly like Attic does, so you often have these "encounters" so to speak as in this case, where the root of the verb δοκε- ends in a vowel, epsilon, and is regularly attached to the third person singular ending ει(ε[thematic vowel] + ι)

>>24926328

Classical Greek = Attic Greek

Homeric Greek, Attic/Classical Greek and Koine Greek = Ancient Greek

Marleius mortuus erat: initio. De eo dubium nullum erat. Registrum de eius morte a pontifice et scribaque libitinario scriptum erat. Scrogius scribit: et nomen Scrogii bonum erat pro quocumque manum extendere vellet. Inveteratus Marleius tam mortuus quam clavis ianuae erat.

Thoughts?

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>>24920314
A nigga will really learn a language and then blame the language itself once the novelty and dopamine wears off.
ADHD zoomers need to stay away from classical languages.

>>24927458
licetne latine respondere? bene scriptum videtur, praeter exempli gratia quod -que usus es post 'scriba' cum iam 'et' scripsisses antea
non teneo sensum sententiae 'manum extendere pro aliquo', quid sibi vult?

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>>24927490
>5 o clock
Ngl to you anon, this took me several hours of work as I'm novice to the language. I can't read your post fast enough to give you a reply.

>>24927573
no worries, I just said it's a decent paragraph, you don't need -que after scriba if you already used 'et'
also I don't get what the expression "manum extendere" means here

>>24927490
>>24927582
'qui aliquo manum extendere vult, eius nomen bonum est' anonem significare puto

>>24927478
tfw this is me, except being a zoomer.

for languages i get super excited about learning but then i have about a month before i hit the limits of my attention span and my desire to learn goes away. i really wish i knew how to get past it.

>>24927886
should have some target work/author to look forward to, at least that's something concrete i.e "read the Aeneid in the original" vs "learning the language" which really never stops, it's vague so you can easily lose sight of what you are doing

>>24927886
the enjoyment of “new thing” wears off quickly, you have to learn to love the tedium of “get really good at thing”. helps to have a goal as >>24927895 says

>>24927886
You need to have the discipline to study it everyday, no matter how you feel about it. As the other anons said, you also have to have a more concrete goal with the language, like reading a particular work. Some languages I've been learning for 5 or 6 years and I still get excited about the little things, like learning a new word.

I have a question for the Latinists. If I take the name 'Sara' and add 'magna' to it, that would mean great Sara, but if I was putting it into the genitive that would be Sarae magnae for 'of the great Sara', but if you chose to put Sarae + magna, would the magna be "the great" in this case because it's in nominative? I keep seeing that adjective MUST take the same case as the thing they modify, but that limits the case usage. So, you couldn't say Sarae Magna meaning "Sara the great"?

>>24928489
No, you can't say Sarae Magna. If you want to say Sara the Great, you can say Sara Magna Illa. In the genitive, Saraa Magnae Illius

hac nocte quid edistis cenae? fabas et oryzam in olla ferri coxi.

>>24928603
haha ipse heri quoque fabas et oryzam coxi more Mexicanorum plus minusve, hodie cum hesternae cenae aliquantulum relictum erat sartagine frixi compositas pilulas oryzae ovo oblinitas et panis micis opertas cum caseo intus, quae Italice arancini nuncupant; praeter eas poma terrestria quoque fricta
eundust mihi iam cubitum, vale

>>24928493
Why would you put illa? The nominative already suggest either article. I think this was argued previously with the Latin version of Winnie the Pooh where a demonstrative is used to emphasize what a Pooh is. And wouldn't Sara be a first declension taking the -ae ending?

... Are you guys just using Google translate?

>>24928730
no, my grammar may be fucking shit but these god awful messages are all done by hand

>>24928730
Scribo Anglice, tunc Wiktionario traduco.

>>24918613
子于何处?
熊惊犬,去之。
莫鬻鱼,馁也。

未其谏,吾无功。
忆古言,终其论。
作剑者为人数问铁自安。

王愈慰众,不肯。已思三法,决许选王。王此时欲邻国战于此。欲璧归之,如内紊前。

>>24914151
I'm looking to read Aristotle, is there a particular translation of his Nicomanchean Ethics that any of you would recommend over others?

Could anyone help me understand this sentence from Laelius de Amicitia?
>Ego si Scipionis desiderio me moveri negem, quam id recte faciam, viderint sapientes.
>If I were to assert that I am unmoved by grief at Scipio's death, it would be for "wise" men to judge how far I am right.
Why is "faciam" in the present subjunctive, but "viderint" in the perfect subjunctive? In other words, how does "viderint" occur before "faciam"?

>>24929475
it should be this construction https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/potential-subjunctive
>In this use the present and the perfect refer without distinction to the immediate future

>>24929557
Thank you. That seems right, but I'm still unsure why Cicero chose to use the perfect there. Just looking in Lewis and Short, Cicero wrote other things with a similar construction:
> quae (ars) quam sit facilis, illi viderint
and
> viderint ista officia viri boni
So maybe it's something peculiar to Cicero, because for the life of me I can't find an example anywhere else. Especially since according to Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar
>The Pf. Subjv. as a potential seems to have been very rare in early Latin. Cicero extended the usage slightly and employed more persons; thus the first person plural and second singular occur first in Cicero.

>>24929643
I guess it's another example similar to the negative command/hortatory construction using ne + the perfect subjunctive for some reason, I'm not even sure Romans would've understood it within our scheme of present/perfect, maybe it's too rigid

>>24929475
I'm just throwing this out there, but I wonder if it be possible Cicero conceived "viderint" like future perfect? To me, that makes some logical sense given that it's paired with a "si" clause containing a verb in the present subjunctive, except that the tenses of the verbs are backwards logically. Given that the future perfect indicative and perfect subjunctive forms look practically identical, I always wonder how the native speakers would have thought of them.

>>24929475
From Allen and Greenough's section on future conditionals:
>Note— The future perfect is often used in the apodosis of a future condition.

Vehementer mihi grātum fēceris, sī hunc adulēscentem hūmānitāte tuā comprehenderis. (Senpai. 13.15)
You will do (will have done) me a great favor, if you receive this young man with your usual courtesy.

So it seems like the perfect subjunctive is just substituted for the present sometimes. I think you can just translate it like a regular future-less-vivid conditional.

>>24929719
I'm inclined to believe this except for the fact that this construction seems to rare and potentially unique to Cicero. It could certainly just be a thought process that we don't understand intuitively like the Romans.

>>24929737
>>24929765
These are potentially the case also, but I'm nearly certain that "viderint" is in the subjunctive, considering the very strong tendency for protases and apodoses to be in the same mood, and, barring that, viderint would almost certainly have to be attracted into the subjunctive by the remaining verbs. Realistically it probably is just a rare form of future-less-vivid conditional, but, as would be the case in any other autistic Latinist, not understanding why Cicero chose to use one aspect over the other is going to nag me. Though some things just have to be accepted, I guess.

>>24929765
>>24929811
On second thought, you're right. In
>Vehementer mihi grātum fēceris, sī hunc adulēscentem hūmānitāte tuā comprehenderis.
I thought "feceris" was in the indicative. Sorry about the confusion. Regardless I learned something new today. Thank you.

>>24929822
* I should have said I thought "comprehenderis" was in the indicative.

If you're really a classicist, show me your rendition of the first line of Schleicher's fable in Proto-Indo-European. You've studied Greek and Latin for years? You should be able to do this.
>A sheep who had no wool saw three horses
q'ewis i q:welit ne qest qeḱ:ums t:rims weyt't
>later on
ɦéwis yoy χwl̥ʔnéχ ne ʔést ʔéḱwoms trims weyˀdt
>later on
ɦówis yosméy ʕwəlnáʕ ne ʔést ʔéḱwoms tríms ʔéderḱt

>>24930155
it seems like it uses a relative clause with the be + dat. construction to show possession so I'll try to replicate it
οἶς ᾖ ἔριον οὐκ ἦν τρεῖς ἵππους εἶδεν
ovis cui vellus non erat tres equos vidit

>>24916198
a classic doesn't mean it's from a classical period

morning bump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rA0gAzaBXw

New bald man kino has dropped

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>>24932310
εἰωθυῖα Ἐλληνικὴ νίκη
good vid tho, I've read Greek for years but I mostly completely ignored numerals, just never ran into anything needing them

>>24914151
What would be some less studied classical languages, along with resources for them?

>>24932310
>'Greek' xyz
>look inside
>Alexandrian

>>24932492
All the AME languages, look into the mega link.

>>24932476
>I mostly completely ignored numerals
Same. Lacks all sense of kino.

>>24932606
I always figured if I cultivated enough of a skill at memorizing, Classical Arabic could be fun to try to learn by memorization of verse.

>>24928730
last time I checked Translate produces pretty shitty latin especially compared to AIs, and even the latter can give it away if you have at least somewhat of an eye for idiomatic classical Latin, albeit I guess if you ask them specifically to translate something in the style of X author they might be quite good

>>24933578
That's why I'm asking.

What was the real reason behind the decline of good Greek literature?

>>24933630
Civilizational life-cycle.

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>>24933630
The Volkisch Theory of Race.

Bump

As a pure hypothetical, I see that a lot of homeschooling parents have some vague idea that they want their kids to learn Latin, but they themselves don’t know any Latin at all and often fail to use all but the most pointless grammar/vocab lists on their 5-10 year olds. But it raised the question to me of how a proficient latinist with sufficient time would teach kids Latin as their world language starting from say age 5 straight through high school. Keep in mind I don’t mean any schizo shit I basically just mean a young-start second language curriculum like many kids get for Spanish or French or whatever. I figure part of the problem is most modern materials are built for high schoolers at least and at this point usually college.

How would any of you do it you think? Maybe the lighter the grammar the better? Focus on reading comprehension? Maybe you could teach a substantial amount of the case endings by pairing them with prepositions, like how Latin by the Natural Method was intended for high schoolers to learn Late Latin first and then go into the classics where there is more pure case-usage.

>>24934584
In my opinion, the problem with Latin is that it's primarily a written language first, then a spoken language. You could very easily immerse a child in, say, a Spanish-speaking environment from the beginning, but you would ideally need some super-autists to create an Latin-immersion environment, like those immersion schools in Italy run by Miraglia. Another option would have been the church, but with the utter death of not only the TLM but apparently also papal bulls in Latin, this seems less practicable (though there are certainly TLMs still being held in certain churches). Anything grammar-intensive would flop for all but the most precocious children.

>>24934657
>Anything grammar-intensive would flop for all but the most precocious children.
Yeah, my point exactly. I saw some interesting materials for total-body response teaching that got me thinking about it. I think the goal would be to build as quickly as possible to actually reading, and it would certainly be easier for someone who is using Latin in a religious way, but of course many people who do have no proficiency outside of that scope so they couldn’t really read anything non-liturgical. But like a guy who can fluidly read Caesar and knows a bunch of prayers/hymns would have an advantage. I think also someone religious could just make the Bible/Gospels the initial goal text which narrows the scope and focus of studies substantially and lowers the barrier of entry a bit. Maybe harvesting and building stuff based on the medieval colloquia materials would be the way to go, since AFAIK there are extant texts aimed as young as medieval 5 year olds.

>>24934657
Come to think of it, the direct method or reading method movement has some works where they describe their methods and they had kids reading simplified texts right after teaching them the phonics. If there was a really massive curriculum that’s actually paced at that “1-2 new words per page” pace suggested in input studies you could probably use that as the means to get a kid up to speed, probably through children’s picture books.

>>24934657
>In my opinion, the problem with Latin is that it's primarily a written language first, then a spoken language

We need an AI for Latin audio books.

>>24934584
Why do people even want to teach children Latin? I know Latin, but I will not teach it to my children.

>>24934584
wouldn't the LLPSI series be good precisely because of it's "puzzly" style? a kid that age may find the challenge fun, with some guidance

>>24934910
That's an interesting question, and I've given it some thought, at least enough to give a practical reason for why I wanted to learn Latin. From a child's perspective, learning Latin (or really any highly-inflected language, but Latin foremost) provides a much better understanding of grammar than they would acquire from an English class. You actually have to grasp what is meant by, say, a direct/indirect object, and how all of the pieces come together to form a coherent sentence. Knowing Latin vocabulary is also indispensable to memorizing advanced English vocabulary. E.g. understanding the word egregious from the Latin grex, and using that word in a more interesting way than if the English definition were rote memorized. I could go on. It's certainly not useless.

>>24934697
>>24935188
I could definitely see this happening in a private/Montessori school, but not in a public school setting where teachers are both of generally lower quality and have too little time to actually teach the subject properly.

>>24934910
I think it would've been fun to learn as a kid, and then I wouldn't have had to learn it as an adult, and it would've been more productive than French. Why do people even want to teach adults Latin?

>>24935188
Maybe, but it ramps way too quickly for a little kid so it would need a pretty involved adult and to be done VERY slowly and patiently with the kid. With a relatively mature middle or high schooler I think thoroughly going through Fr. Most's Latin by the Natural Method would be a bit easier and more grounded, and it gets one into the Bible earlier insofar as that is relevant for a given curriculum.

>>24935546
I was asking more about homeschool since it seems there's a sizeable chunk of homeschooling parents (many aren't even religious or anything) that want to teach their kids Latin with pretty abysmal results, seemingly because they just have them memorize declensions and vocab.

So what I was wondering was if anyone had any ideas for what the "ideal latin program" would be assuming a competent-enough latinist and a reasonable budget of time per day or amount of sessions per week, homeschooled or in very small classes (maybe co-ops). Basically, if the goal is reading some literature [especially if you include the bible + medievals] by the start of high school, what's the ideal way to start, and how do you get to the end goal?

If a Latinist had a pupil they could teach from 5-18 what would be the best progression and/or program without being so over the top as to be treating it like a native heritage language and talking to your kid entirely in Latin or something, but more like someone who did French in undergrad trying to make sure their kid can read Hugo.

i've been working on a polished translation of the ethnography of africa (chapters 17 and 18) of sallust's jugurthine war for the last little while. this shit is hard as hell but really rewarding. you should all be polishmaxxing it harnesses autism well

>>24934584
Just have both parents, and anyone else in the household, speak only Latin to them from birth. It's happened before, with Montaigne.

>>24934879
There are already a good few human-read ones out there, and Latin text-to-speech programs.

>>24919897
Just finished it.
Now I will probably read some shorter book, maybe Tacitus's dialogue of the orators.

Alright my leading theory after giving it some thought is a total-body-response approach and making it fun for a little kid, reading very simplified text trailing a couple years behind English (so like if the kid is hitting see spot run around 4-5, do the latin equivalent with guidance around 5-6). Outside of absolutely core vocab tailor the vocab towards one very specific and readable text (especially for the simplified readings). For example, the gospel of John has like 1200 lemmas. A story about fishermen repairing a net may only have so much carryover to broad Latin literacy but it will help with the gospels. Mary had a little lamb carries over well, etc. Then you could read along together in the Vulgate at a surprisingly young age with the goal of unguided extensive reading (with either glossing or a parallel) by middle school. I think from there the path gets more clear because the kid is old enough to get more explicit explanations, and it’s largely just a matter of keeping up extensive reading that progresses in difficulty until they’re adults. Maybe with a sufficient pace in the Latin a motivated teacher/parent could spend a chunk of high school doing the basics of Ancient Greek.

One might scoff at this but it’s hardly as ambitious as the goal of yesteryear and it uses much more efficient methods, with an at least 13 year timeframe.

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bump

>>24937277
Since she runs at the level of a disabled 8 year old i’m gonna run this program with my wife to preview its effectiveness and to become capable of teaching Latin. She said she wants to learn. Gonna get that book for 3rd graders for her.

>>24938773
>Caesaroid
Pompey bros where we at?