>>25208425
im smart and everyone here else is dumb

>>25208425
Oliver Twist is trash and fails completely at delivering it's message. It wants to say that 'poor people are bad becouse their material needs are not fullfilled', but it says instead that 'people who are not aristocrats, poor people, ugly people and jews are inherently evil and cannot be helped' combined with 'all evil stems from being not a noble, poor, ugly or jew'. Instead of telling to the reader that to vanquish evil the society needs to be reformed to be more equal, Dickens says that to vanquish evil you must vanquish those people, becouse those evil people are and always will be evil and will never reform. Oliver Twist escapes becoming evil only becouse he is of noble birth .
A complete failure of novel that shows that the mainstream reader has always been a retard and becouse of that only complete trash can become best-seller.

>>25208443
Dickens understood his message. It's the readers who misinterpreted. They wanted him to be something that he's not, but he was always in favour of concepts like noble birth and slavery.

>>25208443
>'all evil stems from being not a noble, poor, ugly or jew'
Pretty based if you ask me.

>It wants to say that 'poor people are bad becouse their material needs are not fullfilled'
>Oliver Twist escapes becoming evil only becouse he is of noble birth
This isn't true at all and I really doubt that was Dickens' intent. What the fuck did you read? I think Oliver Twist has its charm even with its real faults but this is just not true at all. Oliver is the quintessential pure-hearted child and Dickens made him that way so that everything that happened to him made you think the world around him was shit. If anything, Oliver was an example on how poverty did NOT necessarily make you a bad person since he spent most of his childhood in the streets.

>becouse
Also, it's "because" you fucking pajeet

>>25208425
corrr woud glaze this birds face 100%

The Anatomy of Melancholy is a garbage book and a slog to read. People only pretend it's good because William Gass is quoted as saying Burton has the most beautiful prose. Have you read The Anatomy of Melancholy? Burton doesn't have an original voice. The entire text is him Frankenstein stitching different quotes from all the books he has ever read. He has not one single original sentence. The ENTIRETY of the book is him quoting other authors, and he does it in such an inept way that the book is unreadable, on top of being over one thousand pages.

>>25208425
I'm tired of the women threads.

>>25208474
Bill Farts wrote The Tunnel AKA a big fucking waste of time only enjoyed by the lamest people on earth. You should never have listened to him

>>25208477
What picture would you have used instead?

>>25208425
Outside of very poorly written books, like twilight, I don't think most literature is slop, or bad. It does what it's designed to do: entertain its target audience. I also think the snobbery in this group is retarded. There's enough fart-smelling wine glass-wielding one-raised-eyebrow retards on reddit to last a life time. To have a 4chan channel devolve into the exact same behaviour is appaling.

>>25208425
>Corm McCarthy is popular mostly due to declining literacy rates
>Gaddis only writes voices, not characters
>The Crying of Lot 49 is Pynchon's only good book
>Fires on the Plain is more spiritual than anything Dovstoy ever wrote
>Tolstoy is better than Shakespeare
>The Old Man and the Sea is only shades better than Ready Player One
>Stoner is only popular because potheads read it as their first big boy book
>Alice Munro did nothing wrong

the greeks and romans suck
i cant read anything old, too boring

>>25208425
>tfw no ditzy lit gf to talk down to

>>25208486
a muscular black man ofc

>>25208474
I think people just forgot that type of book existed and was incredibly useful. There was no wikipedia or google search. Collating massive amounts of snippets even if you barely structured it was a massive undertaking and a resource. There’s a book called Pandemonium that’s hard to get now but it’s all historical capsules covering the arrival of the industrial age. It’s fascinating to read.

>>25208484
>Bill Farts
Heh
>>25208425
Anyway, relevant to your OP pic, I hate Kafka. His books have the most boring prose ever and oftentimes it just feels like “this happened and the he did this”. I know why he does it, but it doesn’t mean I think it’s good

>>25208425
People only pretend to enjoy whale facts, along with most of the canon

Kerouac / the Beats / etc. mean nothing to me and I have never had any interest in them
Right-wing homosexuals seem to be close to the top of the literary food chain

Judas literally sacrificed more than Jesus and is the bigger martyr, any idiot can sacrifice their life and suffer on the cross for what they believe in especially when they know they’re Yahweh’s son and they’ll conquer death and ascend to heaven in three days, Judas gave up his own ability to ever go to heaven or call himself a good to fulfill Yahweh’s plan, that’s true sacrifice.

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>>25208565
If you’re not referencing this on purpose it just shows these questions were popping up at the time. My hobby is asking casual christians theological questions and finding out what type of heretic they are. The idea that the OT God is evil and completely separate from Buddy Jesus is extremely common.

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>>25208579
I was thinking of the graphic novel called Judas where it shows his journey through Hell and Jesus going into hell to bring Judas to heaven because he is actually the most loyal of the disciples, only he had the stomach to do the betrayal necessary to the plan

>>25208586
Well it’s likely based on the actual gospel.

>>25208477
/thread

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>>25208565
>Judas literally sacrificed more than Jesus and is the bigger martyr

I go for the belief that he betrayed jesus to try and trigger Jesus's full power/bring about a revolt against the romans, but when Jesus didnt do anything, he felt so guilty that he killed himself. jews wanted a messiah who would overthrow the Romans in Judea and make isreal independant. A few years after jesus's death there was an actual revolt which led to the destruction of the 2nd temple and the decline of messianic judaism.

In the bible you can see how the disiples misinterpret jesus all the time so its not hard to see how judas wanted jesus to be a violent messiah and not a peaceful guy

>>25208425
Tolstoy sucks. Anna's sections are actually pretty okay, but anything involving Levin, especially part 8, was awful. And I dropped War & Peace after falling asleep while reading it, not even George Eliot has this effect on me.

Genre fiction could be considered literary in certain instances.

>>25208619
Either way his betrayal was necessary for Yahweh’s plan, why should he be punished for wickedness when said wickedness is a central part of all humanity’s redemption?

>>25208649
Ada, or Ardor is technically genre. Sci-Fi + Alternate History, just like Dukaj's Ice.

>>25208425
I will never read translations and I think it's a travesty that it's generally considered to be a viable option. Literature is art, what the fuck are you talking about TRANSLATING, how are you going to translate art?It simply is not possible. We should burn all translations. If you wanna read the work, you have to learn the language.

>>25208579
I openly admit I have some heretical views. Or rather, heretical doubts and questions. Obviously I'm not your typical Christian to admit this freely. I still can't conceive that Yahweh is indeed Jesus, especially since Jesus never addresses his name directly. The fact that that is also the jew's current worshipped god and they do the stuff they do also throws me off.

At that point it's just up to faith. I believe in Jesus Christ and believe that what He did was just. As long as I follow His commands and believe He is my savior, I have a chance. There's nothing in the word that says I have to fully accept that Yahweh = Our Father as long as I concede that Jesus was the Son of God and that His Father is good.

You can't understand Moby Dick or IJ if you're not from New England

>>25208651
> betrayal was necessary for Yahweh’s plan
This is the same got pissed at Adam and Eve touching a tree he placed so they could touch it and after being told by a serpent he made. He spazzed out over all of humanity destroying it (in a myth the kikes ripped off from their masters). He then changes his mind about who his super special favourite people is and somehow needs to incarnate so he can sacrifice himself to himself so he can stop a rule he made up.
Later people will try to call this an omniscient and omnipotent deity that is “all good”. His retardation and the inconsistency of all this is so great even ancient people couldn’t make any sense of it, which is why they focused on the carrot of promising justice and everlasting life in the afterlife (shockingly an innovation).
It’s just badly written and all the retcon attempts are just making it more pathetic. His plans require evil and demons but evil having actual power is a theological problem so actually God “allows” all this evil (but isn’t responsible for it, for reasons), and all the bad shit is just 5d chess and you need to shut up.
It worked a lot better back when you weren’t allowed to read the thing for yourself.

>>25208669
>omnipotent deity that is “all good”
*Goodness, not all good. God is goodness itself (which includes balance and justice), not good in a conventional reddit sense of 21st century postmodern morality.

>>25208651
Maybe its the writers of the gospels trying to understand why jesus said he would be betrayed, and then it actually happening and trying to process this

Jung remains largely misunderstood. This becomes abundantly clear if one attempts to look at not only goodreads comments or redditors but also secondary literature written by self-proclaimed Jungians or even Aniela Jaffé herself, dare I say.

Normies read, interpret and parrot most practical Jungian concepts as well as somewhat digestable metaphysical Jungian frameworks such as archetypes, individuation and collective unconscious. However, they all fail to understand where archetype stops and where real lived experience begins. It is clear from chapters in the Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious, from passages in Aion and Mysterium Coniunctionis that archetypes for the immortal Self are not just representations to Jung, but embodiments of fully real experience. The transpersonal entity that are manifested in the Dioscuri for example is not a matter of belief, it is a lived reality, and this cannot be known unless one shares this experience.

Thus, the most central part of Jungian literature is essentially inaccessible to all that has not, a priori, connected to an immortal Self, and this strangely appears to be innate anyway.

>>25208669
You’d have to commit blasphemy in the form of saying Yahweh was cruel, vain, and flawed like every other pagan tribal god but being the most powerful transforms him into the all loving all forgiving father of the New Testament. That it’s not only humanity’s redemption but Yahweh’s own as their creator and thus the source of all their evil and sins.

>>25208474
>People only pretend it's good because William Gass is quoted as saying Burton has the most beautiful prose.
Wrong. I pretend it's good because it was Keats' favorite book

>>25208648
What makes Anna's parts better than Levin's?

>>25208522
You don’t want it, I had it and it’s painful. It gets heated quite quickly since many girls these days often take offence to everything you say to them.
>>25208515
>>Tolstoy is better than Shakespeare
That is quite controversial. Explain your reasons for coming to this conclusion.

This board is infested with low iq schizophrenics. I don't mean "weird guys" or whatever, I mean actual schizophrenics. If you're lucky, it's limited to 1-2 replies of gibberish in a thread.

>>25208425
I hate women and love men

I hate men and love women
(God I hope she sees this)

>>25208425
So..so many

1. I like the dash - ok! Fuck AI for using it. I also love my dot dots...

2. I only read Anglo and French works (VO). I especially don't read RUSSIAN works. I don't give a fuck about Russia. It's truly the antipodal of a civilized world. No matter how much Tolstoy and Dosktoevsky are praised - I won't read them. I don't care about some passed out drunk on K bridge. I just DONT care.

3. Christians and Jews - cut from the SAME cloth. Don't care about your barbaric religion or your stupid holy books - your dumb holidays, or your dumb inter-denominational conflicts. You took everything civilized about the world and destroyed it, and I still resent you for it.

4. I don't read anything that needs a glossary of made up words - Dune, Hobbit Books, Star Wars etc.. Do you understand how hard it is to believe the real world? Do you think I want to ready your fantasy shit.

5. I like Max Lawton for only one reason. I think he tries.

6. Plot is the least important element of a work. In fact whether a book makes your dick hard should be a more important quality of a work than the plot.

7. Physical Book > IPAD (PDF) > EReader (EPUB)

>>25208425
I thought that was Mayli at first.

>>25208812
I also like my dot dots…
But anon, these points that you’re making. A lot of them either aren’t that controversial or I agree with most of them. The Christian part I disagree with only because some of the greatest literature has been predicated on Christian theology.
Plot’s inferiority and physical books’ superiority aren’t very controversial on /lit/ though.

>>25208821
same. why'd she do it?

>>25208812
Basically 7 for 7, although I have to nitpick the distinction of dash vs. em dash the latter of which seems to be your intent.

Personally I‘d add German and Greek to point 2, though there may be an implicit consideration that ancient works are admitted to the canon of later languages to which they‘ve been effectively translated.

On point 4 I‘ll go a little further and say it‘s always better to base stories on existing persons and events where possible. This is a loose rule as obviously there are many Wilhelm Meisters and Bygmaster Solnesses and such who deserve admission to the canon by sheer force of character; but while basically the whole literary tradition is sitting underutilized on the shelf it seems odd to be inventing John and Jane Does for whom no identifiable significance exists and who will be forgotten instantly at the end of the work.

I genuinely think Heart of Darkness is just another great story of the dozen greats written by Conrad and the sole reason it's been singled out is because people simply love whatever political/social commentary can be found in the classics so they can interpret it through their mongoloid modern twitter-posting lenses.
Typhoon, Nigger of the Narcissus, Shadow-line, End of the Tether, Secret Sharer, everything in Tales of unrest are all equally as good as HoD, but of course they're largely forgotten because most of these deal with interpersonal relationships and others with power dynamics or other struggles within a ship, so they're not useful to the politics-obsessed riffraff that doesn't exactly care about literature but scooping out whatever narrative suits them.

>>25208477
Yeah, I agree. It's always the same thing and often delvolves into not even being about literature anymore. Even if you genuinely hate women, I don't get how the same thread can be interesting for the 1000th time.

>>25208509
I think twilight did what it's designed to do despite being poorly written. It set me up with a habit of reading as a young teen. I'd stopped reading after Harry Potter finished.

>>25208665
>I still can't conceive that Yahweh is indeed Jesus, especially since Jesus never addresses his name directly.
John chapter 14?

>>25208850
>>25208812

The best of them all is the en dash. The em is so ridiculously long - like a big fat pole in my sentence. The dash is fine enough but not as perfect as the en dash. It's also very annoying to use because I have to go and copy it from somewhere to use it because double dash usually gives em not en.

Literary theory is more important it's supposed object.

>>25208858
you're the only two talking about her, idiot

>>25208985
Shhhh let them live in their delusions. It’s funny.

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I don't know if it's controversial, but I think the vast vast majority of novels are extremely bloated and they rarely need to be over 100 pages, it's just a cultural and marketing thing to make them longer to be seen as "serious".

>>25208852
What are the best Conrad stories? Anything else with the adventure feel of Heart of Darkness?

Ernest Cline > Bakker >>>>>>>>>> Gene Wolfe

Bakker is superior in terms of philosophical questions but his characters, world building, and especially his depictions of women are pathetic and only appeal to trenchcoat wearing dorks. Cline has better pacing, action, humour, drama, twists, etc. Wolfe is dogshit at everything. But please, tell me why your genre fic is actually literature.

>>25208472
And what about your mom?

>>25208706
Why do people bitch about the concept "lived experience"

>>25209079
It's like saying "my truth" -- it reeks of cultural Marxism.

>>25208858
Yeah but I like looking at hot chicks. Sorry about your homosexuality.

I threw away the Sorrows of Young Werther and Dubliners (I started at the Dead) almost immediately. I have zero patience for awkward romance.

>>25209170
Kek

>>25209099
It’s just the translation of Erlebnis as opposed to Erfahrung.

>>25209218
Fuk u sai 2 me?!

>>25208443
I think his main goal was to show the plight of children in the city, which he did so well that the literal queen read his novels and was so moved that she began social reforms to protect children from exploitation. Your opinion is not only wrong, historically the impact of his novels prove they delivered a different message.

>>25208443
>>25209260
I just looked it up, and Queen Victoria was particularly moved by Oliver Twist specifically. You're entitled to your opinion (a patently incorrect one) but people who were actually in positions to do something heard a different message and actually acted on that message.

>>25208565
My unpopular opinion is that the Serpent in the garden of Eden was truthful and moral while God was dishonest and immoral. Consider the narrative, Man is told he is forbidden from eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Thus, God demonstrates that he forbids the acquisition of knowledge, already an immoral stance, but further, he tells Man that he shall "surely die in the day you eat the fruit". As we find out later, not only do Adam and Eve live, they leave the garden and live for hundreds of years, proving God was wrong. Interestingly, the Serpent tells the truth on this account, he tells Eve that they will not die in that day, and that God just doesn't want them to become like him. This is confirmed in a verse later (Genesis 3:22) where it is recorded: "And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Therefore, God was dishonest on multiple accounts, lying to Man about the conditions of life and death all in service of his real goal, keeping Man ignorant, fearful, and ultimately mortal anyway since clearly Man had not yet eaten of the fruit of life. Meanwhile, the Serpent told the truth and encouraged the pursuit of higher knowledge.

tl;dr, Serpent based. God cringe.

>>25208971
I make a distinction between "Father" and the Jewish name of "Yahweh". Jesus does say He and the Father are one but he never makes direct reference to Yahweh. I dunno, I'm too dumb to make my point on this

>>25208425
GRRM has far too many POVS and half of them are not needed.
I genuinely don't understand the purpose of Cersei POVs. Cersei is a petty idiot; that much was clear without POVS. POV perspective doesn't really add anything.
Cersei has no character growth.

>>25208425
>>25209892

>>25208443
>Oliver Twist escapes becoming evil only becouse he is of noble birth .
Isn't the Artful Dodger his brother?

>>25209914
>can't even greentext
You're unironically a worse writer than the average channer

>>25208443
>Oliver Twist escapes becoming evil only becouse he is of noble birth .
This is the main problem that all "medievalist" literature has (among the other stuff you mentioned which also stems from the exact same source) - no one ever rises through the ranks through meritocracy, or fucks up the hierarchy out of revenge despite being a lowly peasant, and so on. Everyone has to be a "secret king", it's pathetic.
>>25208454
Yeah the eternal Anglo is a shit.
>>25208586
Good comic, it has some tumblr face issues but overall the colors and the style are quite nice. And the story is something to think about if you haven't already.
>>25208579
>>25208596
The "actual gospel" which was a gnostic fanfic lmfao idiot.
>>25208706
Tard was a pervert and sex pest, all his shit is based on "le I read le Buddha" or whatever oriental shit was popular at the time. On the level of astrology and Hare Krishnas basically.

Jews are based

>>25208443
>it says instead that 'people who are not aristocrats, poor people, ugly people and jews are inherently evil and cannot be helped' combined with 'all evil stems from being not a noble, poor, ugly or jew'.
Based. Now I gotta read it. I got similar messages from David Copperfield.

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Some modern novels such as The Godfather, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, Fahrenheit 451 and Brave New World have more positive impact on me than most classics. While their prose and overall messages are simple, veiled in some profanity and vulgarity, I cannot deny that it speaks to me because I am a man living in modern times. Same for philosophers such as Evola and Guénon are more relatable than philosophers from 1000-2000 years ago.

>>25210017
Anyone who would get mad at this is an insecure retard (like >>25209985). That's perfectly reasonable.

>>25208425
Nobody would have cared about Kafka any more than people care about, say, Walser, if Kafka wasn't jewish. Though I suppose that's true for practically all jewish authors. Even if that race did manage to produce someone of unquestionable merit, only God would really know where their merit ended and their jewishness began when it came to their fame and success.

>>25208472
>>25208477
>>25208522
>>25208598
>>25208804
>>25208821
>>25208826
>>25208858
>>25209118
Hey gois! Thanks for liking this post. You can watch the video from the picture here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0q7qNYlE-o

and don't forget to check the description and join the discord! thanks! 53/483

>>25208474
Ummm that's the charm of it sweetie. Get the audiobook version and it's like listening to a rambling madman. Highly recommended.

>>25208425
Objectivism isn't a dumb philosophy.

>>25210031
You really get a sense of racial differences when you compare jewish to gentile authors. The neuroticism and cynicism just comes through in everything they write.

>>25210061
that channel has nothing to do with literature

>>25210025
Look into literacy tardo.

Plato is extremely overrated. He only influenced western thought qua filtered through Aristotle by the neos. The idea of sitting down and reading le dialogues on their own is completely modern. The dialogues contain no coherent philosophy, there’s lots of fluff and laughably bad arguments. Also the brigade of anons who think Plato is incredible and that you have to read the dialogues like fiction and apply literary analysis and sketch out all the characters are, in my experience, massive midwits.

>>25210061
is there something wrong with her? why does she act like a 50% speed boxxy

>>25210137
same can be said about most pre-kant philosophy

>>25208794
It’s interesting that you would say that. In my experIence, when two participants sit down to engage in a game, one of them is always pulling water. The other can either drink it, or he is a Descartes. But if the calculation is responsibly performed, the priors should always match. Your choice.

>>25208515
>Corm McCarthy is popular mostly due to declining literacy rates
‘Owing to’. And no.

>Gaddis only writes voices, not characters
Not sure he even writes voices.

>The Crying of Lot 49 is Pynchon's only good book
It is relatively short, that's true.

>Fires on the Plain is more spiritual than anything Dovstoy ever wrote
Wouldn't know; never read it.

>Tolstoy is better than Shakespeare
Better at what?
Annoying his wife — YES
Growing a long, white beard — YES
Writing Russian — YES
Writing novels — YES
Writing — NO

>The Old Man and the Sea is only shades better than Ready Player One
No. There are thousands of books worse than TOMATS and much better than RPO.

>Stoner is only popular because potheads read it as their first big boy book
If a pothead picked up Stoner because of a misunderstanding over the title he wouldn't get beyond the first page.

>Alice Munro did nothing wrong
She might have done but I don't care one way or the other. What matters is how good her stories are. And the answer to that is, not as good as Norm Macdonald suggested, but still OK.

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>>25210061
I feel old watching her.

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>>25210074
I haven't found that to be true. Ernst Cassirer, Primo Levi, Osip and Nadezhda Mandelstam are not like that at all. Stefan Zweig has a sentimentalism that you could call characteristic, but it's certainly not the kvetching or neurotic type.

>>25208994
>novels bloated
I do think far more novels are too long than too short.

>marketing ploy
Possibly. Interesting to compare books with cinema. Films are getting longer now and usually in a bloated way, not a good way. Maybe film-makers looked back over Hollywood's history and noticed that the average Best Picture winner averaged about 2 hours while the average film was only about 90 minutes. So they thought, "longer film = better film" (or at least, "longer film = more likely to win Oscar"). Something similar might be going on with books.

It is true that almost all manuscript editing involves cutting length. Maybe the problem is that editors these days have too little power and authors too much? That's definitely true with established authors (e.g. Stephen King) but it might be the case with newcomers also. For example, the first Jack Reacher novel (Killing Floor) is about 50 pages too long. It sags noticeably around the 200 page mark. And Lee Childs surely didn't have any clout when he submitted it. So some editor just didn't do his job.

>>25208546
>Kerouac / the Beats / etc. mean nothing to me and I have never had any interest in them
Not really an opinion.

>Right-wing homosexuals seem to be close to the top of the literary food chain
This is an opinion, but I don't see any evidence for it. Who are these "right-wing homosexuals" you speak of?

I suppose it might be plausible if you accept the Wikipedia definitions of "right-wing" (i.e. "not as rabidly woke as the most rabidly woke editor of Wikipedia in the current year") and "homosexual" (i.e. "you can't prove to our satisfaction he WASN'T homosexual"). Even then, I doubt it.

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>>25208425
Hemingway suck (boring)
Murakami suck (boring)

>>25208443
>delivering it’s message
>A complete failure of novel
>becouse

Books and reading books is mostly a LARP and dissociates you from current culture. If it's truth you're searching, it must follow and delve into current language and semiotics; which has drifted appart from printed words. It's wanna-be aristocratic and anachronistic to think reading classics get you closer from any kind of truth.

>>25208425
I link my post to OP >>25210253

>>25208455
The book is filled with boys and Oliver Twist is the only 'pure-hearted child' out of them. Why? Becouse he is of noble birth and isn't actually poor. The other boys are evil and cannot be redeemed.
Even the young prostitute cannot resist evil, she tries but she is drawn to evil and cannot resist it.
>>25209985
>This is the main problem that all "medievalist" literature has
It is not problem for medieval literature, becouse it wants to say exactly that, there is no disconnect between authors intent, what people say the author wrote about and what he did actually write

>>25210183
>Who are these "right-wing homosexuals" you speak of?
Yukio Mishima, Evelyn Waugh, Stefan George, Henry de Montherlant, Roger Peyrefitte, Thomas Mann, Gerard Reve, Colette, Gertrude Stein

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Indexes and Glossaries should be at the start of a book. There's no fucking reason why they should be at the end.

>>25210298

>Yukio Mishima
Yeah, you can have him.

>Evelyn Waugh
Might be a "Wikipedia homosexual". He was just a product of the English public school system. Doesn't make him homosexual any more than Robert Graves. Maybe A. E. Housman is a better example of a right-wing homosexual English writer? (Definitely homosexual but less right-wing, I think. Just an old-school Tory really.)

>Stefan George, Henry de Montherlant, Roger Peyrefitte, Gerard Reve
I perhaps ought to know who these fellows are.

>Thomas Mann
Not really right-wing. Fled Germany and then criticized fascism from afar. More like one of those "old-fashioned Weimer conservatives" that Hitler despised so much, wasn't he?

>Colette
Pretty much apolitical. Just another hedonist.

>Gertrude Stein
Yeah, you can have GS I guess.


I wouldn't say we're left with the "pinnacle of literature", but OK.

>>25210321
I would say Graves and Waugh are different cases. Graves never had homosexual liaisons in his adulthood, as far as I'm aware. Waugh had numerous homosexual relationships in university and thereafter - and he was just a catty faggot all his life. He basically flaunted it. Even when he was a traditionalist Catholic, he said sodomy should be legal. And pederasty and homosexuality recur regularly in his writing.

Thomas Mann wrote some great right-wing cultural criticism in his 'Reflections of a Nonpolitical Man'. All his work is suffused with themes of decadence, civilisational decline, etcetera, showing the influence of Nietzsche and Spengler. Both his reactionary politics and his homosexuality were the cause of tension with his brother Heinrich Mann. He turned to the left later in life, however - and lost his vitality!

You might be right about Colette. And AE Housman - there are lots of homos with vaguely conservative or Tory sensibilities but who were not terribly political... yes... I am thinking of a lot of those Uranian writers... even Lord Alfred Douglas was a great reactionary

Stefan George is great but is not served very admirably by his English translations.

I consciously avoided including anachronistic examples... and perhaps I got mixed up between the fact that reactionaries and faggots are both great contributors to literature, but not always in an overlapping sense.!

>>25210264
>>It is not problem for medieval literature, becouse it wants to say exactly that
Yes, but everything that follows from it...? Do you think Tolkien had the same intent? Either everyone wildly misinterprets everything ever written, or people don't know what the fuck they're writing.

>>25210264
> Becouse he is of noble birth and isn't actually poor
This is probaly bait but I’ll bite. That’s like saying that a bum who lives ten years homeless and then finds out there is a million dollars under the tent he sleeps in was rich all along. Oliver spends literally more than half the book begging, scrabbling, getting shot, bleeding out and having sick fits. You could say he got a free pass because he got his happy ending with noble birth, sure, but that doesn’t really negate the fact that he thought he was poor and was still a good kid despite being surrounded by delinquents. For whatever reason you make the leap that Dickens made him good BECAUSE he was of noble birth.

>>25208425
Richard III sucks and is a slog. Shakes was still premature.

>>25210375
>For whatever reason you make the leap that Dickens made him good BECAUSE he was of noble birth.
Because he did. Literally the same trope exists everwhere from King Arthur to Harry Potter. Why couldn't Arthur just be a really noble thatcher? Why does Henry have to be a noble's bastard in KC:D? Why can't Potter just be a really smart kid?

>>25210385
>it is… b-because it just is, okay?!

>>25210399
Even Plato acknowledged that souls could skip class tiers up or down depending on whether they were born as shit people or not, so it's inexplicable to me that this has not been promoted through Christianity.

>>25210335
Ah, you meant like literature that is inspired by medieval literature, well then I get you. But to Tolkien: he was conservative monarchist so he probs meant it the way the medieval lit meant it. Like the guy refused to sing in english in church after the pope allowed it and kept singing in latin.
>>25210375
Well yes, that's what I am saying, to Dickens it's not matter of character quality, it's matter of the aristocrat spirit or better blood or whatever, would Oliver not have such blood he would be turned evil by the poverty (that's what Dickens is saying) becouse all the dirty poors are evil. The book makes true aristocrats weep when it makes them imagine how their noble ass would have to live among the poors (but still not be as evil as them).

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>>25208425
Reve is leve, Mullis is vullis

>>25208425
Goethe's Faust part two is better than part one. I was very surprised to find out part two is basically regarded as as skippable and too obscure to be worth the time, and the whole legacy of the work pretty much rests on part one. I found part two to be one of the most whacked out and profound literary adventures ever.

>>25210524
A truth as a cow.

A Little Life was actually pretty good

>>25208443
I was going to make a compilation of every time the jew rubbed his hands while I was reading this but I lost my fortitude after about the 25th time

>>25209985
>"actual gospel" which was a gnostic fanfic lmfao idiot
First of all you misunderstood a simple sentence, which makes you ESL, secondly they're all fanfics. Hope this helps sweaty.

>>25209910
>GRRM has far too many POVS and half of them are not needed.
That's not really a controversial opinion, though. If GRRM had stayed with his original AGOT lineup of mostly Starks and maybe kept Theon, Davos and Jaime in the next book, the narrative would've been incredibly tight. But Brienne, the nameless chapters like Aeron, Quentyn, Arienne, Asha, etc. are all unnecessary to the story Grrm set out telling. Or maybe even just limit one new pov per book.

>>25210794
It's a pretty unique problem. He wants to show that things are happening everywhere.
Issue those things bloat the story.
He should have just taken them out and published as spin-off series.

>>25209298
I'm sorry you were raised by a single mother

>>25209985
The "Eternal Anglo" is a concept birthed out of resentment

>>25208442
I’m smart and everyone including me is dumb

>>25208648
I've fallen asleep to many of my favourite novels - sometimes with book in hand. I remember falling asleep maybe 18 times to LOTR, sometimes multiple times in the same day. Peak comfy. Same with anything else which is long - Cervantes, Homer, Kant, Hobbes, Byron etc.

>>25208443
>jews are inherently evil and cannot be helped
Based.

>>25208425
>I don't enjoy reading that much. I only view the medium as an intellectual challenge, which is what engages me the most. Only a few literary works have ever "entertained" me, but I don't believing reading is a source of joy. This is why I prefer non-fiction, however I have read many classics.
>Many fiction authors are absolute midwits. They mask their stupidity in trying to make philosophical claims which have no merit outside of their pointlessly circular and contrived narrative troupes which they employ, which ensure that whatever they are seeking to show or prove or comment on is digested by the reader. Think of Dostoyevsky, and he isn't even a bad writer, but he can present some of his retarded ideas in a very attractive fashion. True sophistry!
>I hate overly descriptive prose. I see it as pointless. It only works well when it blends thematically well with the work itself (e.g., how the environments represent Werther's mental state in Goethe's masterpiece). The more and more you read, the less interested you become in contrived descriptive sequences which add nothing to the novel itself.
>The Satyricon should be more famous.
>Nietzsche is based. Schopenhauer is too. Many of you retards just misread their works because you are retarded.
>LOTR is the best epic of the 20th century.
>Paradise Lost, while thematically complex and filled with some of the best verse of the English language, is the most boring epic poem in the canon. The second half is mediocre.
>Most of Shakespeare's catalogue is shallow. However, his masterpieces (e.g., Hamlet) are some of the best literary works one can read.
>I find more joy in gaming than reading.
>Reading has made me a worse person.
>To study literature at university/college is true retardation, particularly in the modern age when most academics have a focus on feminist critique theory or some rubbish, and don't really contribute to their fields. Even the classics department has collapsed in on itself.

>>25208425
>I don't enjoy reading that much. I only view the medium as an intellectual challenge, which is what engages me the most. Only a few literary works have ever "entertained" me, but I don't believing reading is a source of joy. This is why I prefer non-fiction, however I have read many classics.
>Many fiction authors are absolute midwits. They mask their stupidity in trying to make philosophical claims which have no merit outside of their pointlessly circular and contrived narrative troupes which they employ, which ensure that whatever they are seeking to show or prove or comment on is digested by the reader. Think of Dostoyevsky, and he isn't even a bad writer, but he can present some of his retarded ideas in a very attractive fashion. True sophistry!
>I hate overly descriptive prose. I see it as pointless. It only works well when it blends thematically well with the work itself (e.g., how the environments represent Werther's mental state in Goethe's masterpiece). The more and more you read, the less interested you become in contrived descriptive sequences which add nothing to the novel itself.
>The Satyricon should be more famous.
>Nietzsche is based. Schopenhauer is too. Many of you retards just misread their works because you are retarded.
>LOTR is the best epic of the 20th century.
>Paradise Lost, while thematically complex and filled with some of the best verse of the English language, is the most boring epic poem in the canon. The second half is mediocre.
>Most of Shakespeare's catalogue is shallow. However, his masterpieces (e.g., Hamlet) are some of the best literary works one can read.
>I find more joy in gaming than reading.
>Reading has made me a worse person.
>To study literature at university/college is true retardation, particularly in the modern age when most academics have a focus on feminist critique theory or some rubbish, and don't really contribute to their fields. Even the classics department has collapsed in on itself. Studying STEM is truly more honourable, as long as you engage with the arts and are not some retarded illiterate (which most STEM students are).

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>>25208565

>>25210874
>>I don't enjoy reading that much. I only view the medium as an intellectual challenge
>>I find more joy in gaming than reading
A zoomer and a midwit, surprise surprise. At least you recognise Goethe, Hamlet and Schopenhauer for their greatness.

>>25210841
I was raised in a loving house with my biological mother and father. Again, I'd like to hear what about my opinion is wrong, since I noticed you dodged even referencing the substance of what I said.

>>25210625
Jew, protestant, satanist and atheist walk into a bar. Bartender says to him "no gays allowed" and activates the trapdoor to crocodile.

>>25210889
Games are designed to be "fun".
Literature is art and is not in itself required to be enjoyable or entertaining. Video games are truly more fun than reading will ever be, much like how kicking a ball and playing sport outside is more fun than being couched in a dim room reading Milton. Because something is in itself not "fun" or "entertaining", this does not preclude it from being life-changing, intellectually stimulating, and great - arguably greater than something merely fun. If a game lacks the "fun" factor, it will likely be shit, for games are like roller coasters. Ironically enough, in Goethe's Werther, Werther likens his letter to that of mere "dead" words on a page, unable to convey the real emotion of the moment (this is in when he recounts to his friend when Charlotte describes her mothers death).

>>25210916
>Video games are truly more fun than reading will ever be, much like how kicking a ball and playing sport outside is more fun than being couched in a dim room reading Milton.
Fair enough, but Milton’s poetry mainly Book I, VI and IX, evokes a far stronger emotion in me than scoring my first goal back when I played against the rival school team, or getting that gold on the final special license test on Gran Turismo. You’re right though, they ARE more fun. But they don’t stick with you like at least, the greatest literature does.
I agree with you that fiction is generally dull, so in the same boat as you, I mostly read non fiction, or poetry.

>>25208425
once you've read 10-20 good books you;re better off doing anything else with your life than reading

>>25208425
Fiction is for babies. State your message and move on. Respect my time.

>>25208425
once you've read 10-20 good books you;re better off doing anything else with your life than reading

>>25211014
Sure but there a couple of cool fiction books out there.

Anything over 400 pages is simply too long.

>>25211057
Not a Proust fan i take it?

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>>25208425
I just got this audobook. Is it good?

>>25210061
why did she choose that angle? suspicious.

>>25208425
Shylock was acting well within his rights.

Plato is the great satan. He raped the west for 2000 years and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

>>25210899
>I was raised in a loving house with my biological mother and father
proof?

>>25208425
the message of Don Dellilo's White Noise is trite garbage

John Steinbeck has no hits

Dostoyevsky is sort of overrated

>>25211324
>the message of Don Dellilo's White Noise is trite garbage
oh? and what exactly was the message?

>>25211324
>the message of Don Dellilo's White Noise is trite garbage
oh? and what exactly was the message?

I actually enjoy reading fiction and it makes me enjoy life more.

>>25211364
>>25211369
that didn't need to be posted twice. Anyways, life isn't meaningless and the idea that death is the end is atheistic nihilist horseshit.

>>25208762
In Anna's parts Tolstoy is in his realist mode. He's describing the characters as they are. In Levin (his self-insert) sections Tolstoy enters preacher mode, he starts moralising and sharing his philosophy, which is pants-on-head retarded. People accuse Dostoevsky of being biased, of being a propagandist, of using strawmen, but Tolstoy is ten times worse.

>>25208425
HAPA qt whimsical gf

Xenophon is incredible, he’s genuinely fun to read, and Cyropaedia should be required reading for anyone interested in ancient Greek literature. The Odyssey is overrated (it reads like a juvenile work), and The Iliad is 10,000 times better

>>25211373
Nta but these new dogshit captchas don’t tell you sometimes whether what you wrote was posted or not

>>25211364
>>25211369
that didn't need to be posted twice. Anyways, life isn't meaningless and the idea that death is the end is atheistic nihilist horseshit.

>>25211373
I think the message was more crapitalist middle-class modern America enshrouds people in that view.

>>25211390
I understand disliking blatant didacticism, but all his other characters clearly proceed from his beliefs as well. Anna and Vronsky fall into the terror that they do for the same reason Levin constantly seeks meaning and ends up converting. Towards the beginning Oblonsky is established as a well-adjusted automata, Kitty succeeds as a wife because of Tolstoy's evaluation of what a respectable life consists of. I agree it can sometimes be too much though.
What about his beliefs do you find "pants-on-head retarded"?

>>25211589
The same philosophy that led him to be excommunicated by the Orthodox Church, deny Christ's divinity, rewrite the gospels, reject a bunch of books of the Bible, and more. Even on a secular level his philosophy is distasteful to me: veganism, extreme pacifism, proclaiming Uncle Tom's Cabin superior to Shakespeare.
For the record, I read AK before I found out about all this, so it's not like finding out about all this changed my mind, it merely affirmed my already-formed dislike.

>>25211412
pretty sure she's jewish

The Iliad is wayyyy overrated. Some of you retards say it's the best book of all time, jesus christ. There are thousands of authors you've never even heard of who can write more emotional work. Sure it's cool that it's ancient greek, but judged on its merit as a work of literature it's nothing special. If you compare it to, say, Beowulf or the prose Edda, it's quite good. But that is because those books are simply not. Good, that is.

>>25211729
>There are thousands of authors you've never even heard of who can write more emotional work
Name 5 that we have heard of that can

>>25211763
I'd say any author widely read by this board's users, but let's go with Dosto, Tolkien, DFW, McCarthy.