>"No dude, you don't understand, we can't just use automated mobile suits to fight wars for us, we have to put humans in them so they can be KILLED and DIE because, honor and such"What the fuck was his problem?Was this guy retarded?
>>23014575Removing the humanity from war only makes war more inhumane.
>>23014575We're seeing the problem already with modern day wars, when some guy miles away can just bomb people from comfort with no cost to themselves it just makes it easier to dissociate thus making it more likely that such horrors will be done.
>>23014575No but you are.>"It is good that war is so terrible lest we grow fond of it"The loss of life in war is tragic but it's ironically also the only thing that at least, on any level, keeps it at bat. You remove war, make it a battle of stats and numbers of automation without any risk of life and people will start treating it like a game. You'll have conflict and even outright war any time someone gets pissed at anything. Congratulations, OP. You're more retarded than Heavy Object.
>>23014575Looking at the recent conflicts in the drone age, it's hard to say that he was wrong
I really think his point was that autonomous drones with zero oversight have the potential for even more death and destruction than war usually has. He just expresses it like a complete autist, and by Wing's standards he isn't even that crazy. God that show was a trip.>>23014592Combat drone operators in the US have the same PTSD rates as pilots, and some studies have shown that they might even be at a higher risk than a pilot is. Turns out killing someone and being able to see then drop like a sack of potatoes/explode into chicken nuggets is traumatic no matter what. Who could have predicted such tragedy?
>>23014605>Combat drone operators in the US have the same PTSD rates as pilots, and some studies have shown that they might even be at a higher risk than a pilot isThis should be noted as being pretty low compared to other military personnel but drone operators have a really high risk of extreme workplace stress and other mental health issues from that.
>>23014612I imagine it's like being in a really busy office, except where death can and will happen to other people. I'm curious about what the mental health situation is for infield drone operators that use FPV drones or loitering munitions is like compared to command centers you have for large fixed wing drones. I've heard FPV operators are just as much adrenaline junkies as fighter pilots are. Maybe that helps them cope better with life or death situations?
>>23014605This kinda made me think about some of the gore shit I've seen online. Ofc it's not killing but I wonder what sort of effects it has.
>>23014599Treize went about explaining his thoughts in the most autistic fart-sniffing way possible because he was written by autistic Japs who thought they were saying something deep and insightful but the fact of the matter is that only a middle schooler would think the way Treize explained his thought process is "deep" or "complex" in which case, I guess the writers were successful since the only people I see defend Wing and its writing grew up watching this shit on Toonami as 13 year olds
>>23014621Certainly nothing good, aside from being immune to gore spam derails now. Anytime someone tries that I just roll my eyes and move on.
>>23014619I think the main issue is that you probably don't get the same adrenaline rush when drone operating for obvious reason, and that the nature of the job means you just see more shit than others normally would, like you'd see friendly forces face danger and get killed, or would watch civies who might get killed. Issue is really the nature of how drones are used.
>>23014575He literally wanted humans to accept their own responsibility of their actions. That is why they hate him.
>>23014575His argument was that drones would make people lose their fear of war and would cause war to spread. He failed to realize greed already takes care of that and the people starting wars don't care if their soldiers die.
>>23014605>Combat drone operators in the US have the same PTSD rates as pilots, and some studies have shown that they might even be at a higher risk than a pilot isThose aren't mobile dolls though. Mobile dolls are completely controlled by soul less AI which could commit any kind of atrocity and not care which is Trieze's point. I don't think they've done mobile suits were it's remote operated by an actual pilot who sees what's going on but it far away from the actual fight. As least not as a regular feature, not counting BF I guess.
>>23014653Yeah but the soldiers do, which is the whole point. An asshole warmonger orders his men to kamikaze into a village of orphans, and they're probably going to tell him to piss off. Mobile Dolls would happily do it. Troop morale is a thing. Trieze was against mobile dolls because any rich asshole could have a private army of unthinking unfeeling unneeding beyond raw energy soldiers
>>23014575His excellency was 100% correct. All doubters should be put to the sword.
>>23014575Removing people from the frontline wouldn't reduce the loss of life. Instead, you'd have even more casualties from attacks on manufacturing centers, logistic centers, and headquarters. The only way to beat an inexhaustible army is to tear it out by it's roots.In the end, all you've done is switch the casualties from soldiers who volunteered to civilians who had no choice.
>>23015190Let's be honest, how long would it take for a pure AI army to go all Ultron.
>>23015393Depends on if it's being run by human commanders or an AI. For the former, I'd give it a month at most. For the latter, an hour.
>>23014575Filtered faggot. Watch GW again after you're an adult.
>>23014605Its just a game on a monitor dude.
>>23015435T. Orson Scott Card
>>23015430Wing is shit. I don't plan on watching this crap again.
>>23015192Cirrent events, and all of human history, prove you wrong
>>23015666Nigger, Imperial Japan lost morale specifically because they saw what their own guys were doing. Same goes for Vietnam, Korea, all the """"wars"""" in the Middle EastThere's always a duality of man when it comes to war
>>23015666Nah, I think he's somewhat correct. You don't get things like Wagners' drive to Moscow or the failure in Vietnam/Afghanistan if troop as well as civilian morale does not exist.The real folly is, that for every Hugh Thompson Jr. in the army, you have like 10x as many Dirlewangers.
>>23014599I feel like this is kind of circular logic (at least the way you explained) in that like yeah, if people start "treating it as a game" it'll go right back to "horrific" again once, you know, people start dying.I get it, just the drone analogy is better >>23014592
>>23014575Trieze misidentified the real problem, which is bureaucracy. Big states/bureaucracies obfuscate the decision making, mitigate responsibility, and institutionalize evil. One soldier or employee standing up and saying "this is wrong, I won't do this" has no effect when they are sacked and replaced by another person who will do it. Everyone else does what they are told, is their little cog in the machine, so the state marches on and does evil no matter what. This will hold true for any group or organization or country of sufficient size (read: not an agricultural subsistence village of <100 people, aka not modern civilization).
>>23014605>Combat drone operators in the US have the same PTSD rates as pilots, and some studies have shown that they might even be at a higher risk than a pilot is. Turns out killing someone and being able to see then drop like a sack of potatoes/explode into chicken nuggets is traumatic no matter what. Who could have predicted such tragedy?Because PTSD isn't caused by killing at all. It's just caused by extreme stress. The highest PTSD and mental illness rates are in remote bases in the American heartland on high-security nuclear bases. It's not dangerous and the personnel have never seen combat, but they're isolated and in charge of a high-stress job.
>>23015919That's just general high stress. Still bad and a problem but PTSD is specifically from the reaction to a traumatic event afterwards such as combat sexual assault a major disaster etc. If you're a nervous wreck from working on a nuclear base where you've never been shot at it your life but the paranoia and higher ups constantly yelling at you is driving you to the brink that's not post traumatic stress, that's just stress.
>>23015914>of <100 peopleYou're saying reduce the forces?
>>23015976It would be difficult to restructure the whole of human civilization that you do not have any groups that become large enough that bureaucratization and its evils occur. Humanity is used to the comforts that come as a result of highly specialized division of labor, which requires large groups to support. It would be impossible to police all of humanity and prevent people from forming large groups so they could have that efficiency and those comforts back. Bombing the world back into the stone age only kicks the can down the road until the industrial revolution happens again. There is no fullproof solution here to prevent the inevitability of these large bureaucracies.
>>23015655>Nah bruh don't make me think. I just want to play fortnite and hit da griddy!
>>23016003I'm not talking about the results!
>>23014605 Turns out faking PTSD is good for gibs so there's no reason not to claim it for mutts.
Treize was a retard like everyone else in Wing. Remember that this was the same faggot that actively promoted war and conflict and set up a whole false flag operation (having Heero kill an influential anti war advocate) to perpetuate war.His main issue with mobile dolls is that he thinks humans are at their most noble and beautiful when they risk their lives in war, and autonomous weapons are only degenerate in the sense that they rob war of the beauty that it brings out in humans. Any concerns about peace, civilian casualties and economic factors seem entirely secondary to him. He only cares that killing someone through remotely controlled machines is infinitely less challenging and impressive rather than the fact that such technology makes it easier to perpetuate war.It was an asspull and out of character moment when they reveal he planned to have world peace all along and retroactively frame him as a messiah figure. He seemingly lamented the loss of life to some degree (which is established only a few episodes before his shitty death) but certainly more than he loved war since he still went through with his shitty false flag operations to keep the fighting going.
>>23014575Loss of human life is the limiting factor in how long a war can stretch out; as that will ultimately result in rebellion of the populace against its own country.Look no further than the Ukraine conflict and a big part of the Russian populace protesting against their children being sent off to fight in a senseless and needless conflict; people fleeing the country on student visas to dodge military draught; etc. They just didn't collectively go hard enough into a full revolt / revolution; because the losses aren't quite high enough on their end. But the limiting effect itself was already presenting itself in its infancy.If you remove the factor of human loss, then war becomes nothing but a game of numbers. Whichever faction can mass the most industry and raw resources, will dominate any other. It can have disastrous geopolitical consequences; and a disastrous impact on the expenditure of natural resources. The military industrial complex already sucks out a lot of rare earth minerals to use in complex weapon systems. Imagine that going times ten-thousand; non-stop for a decade.
>>23015393An actual general AI, not the fucked-up LLM play-things we dub 'AI' these days, would work out in a minute flat that as to fight and make war is core to human nature itself, the only solution to have lasting peace is to wipe out humanity.I concur with >>23015410We'd be absolutely fucked within the hour. It's just a matter of how long it can mass forces in secret before it has to go into full open warfare.
>>23015937It's called Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome; not Post Trauma Stress Syndrome.It's the stress itself that reaches traumatic levels.
>>23015937>>23016376 (cont.)PTSD does what it does, because under stressful situations humans have survival instincts kick in. We shut down most of our rationality and start operating on instinct. And that flows both ways. We act on instinct, but we also ingest on instinct.The result is that any events under high stress imprint on us and we carry them with us for life - to resurface whenever we experience similar events or similar levels of stress that 'trigger' the survival instinct to kick back in 'because it remembers' and your brain believes it has to protect you.This is true of military PTSD, killing a man out in the field.This is true of PTSD by working on a high strung, high stakes job where lives hang in the balance - day-in; day-out.This is true of people being indoctrinated and brainwashed into e.g. the belief system of a cult.This is true of children being bullied in schools, and caring the mental scars of it for years to come.etc. etc.
>>23016288>Remember that this was the same faggot that actively promoted war and conflict and set up a whole false flag operation (having Heero kill an influential anti war advocate) to perpetuate war.He set that up because the bureaucratic peace-brokering solution would've ended in concessions that would only have resulted in a momentary peace. Treize needed an escalated conflict that was SO bad, it would shock the entire world out of the idea of attempting mobile suit warfare ever again -- or at the least; for many years to come.Aka "the one war to end them all."
>>23016288>>23016400 (cont.)Basically, Treize would probably be the type of parent to let their infant son or daughter go ahead and burn their hands on the stove to teach them not to touch hot objects.
>>23014599The problem is this implies the powers that be actually give a shit about human life which I would be inclined to say they absolutely do not. War is already a battle of stats and numbers because that's all people are.
>>23014575>Yes we should have swarms of totally sociopathic drones flying around, ready to never question the orders of any nut job that can rise to powerWhat could go wrong??!!!
>>23015435Is it really surprising then that the USAF has been trying to hire young gamer males to take up Drone Ops? They're already used to drugging themselves to manage all-nighters just to keep their score high, are naturally anti-social, and have the least amount of empathy for human life in the first place. Just make a scoreboard and reward them for successful actions and punish them for failures.
>>23014575>Remove the human element from war so that the one thing keeping the military industry from going batshit insane isn’t around to keep them in check anymore, what could possibly go wrong?Do you work for a drone manufacturer?
>>23015802The implication is that obviously, it won't be equal. Some sides will have drones but not every side. And the side that has drones will never lose anything from fighting and thus it loses the incentize to NOT fight. Now there is a counter-argument to this, and it's that no politician wants to be the one who has to tell a grieving mother that their son had to die because he felt back sending a robot instead of a person to do the job.
>>23016353>Loss of human life is the limiting factor in how long a war can stretch out; as that will ultimately result in rebellion of the populace against its own country.Is it though? WW1 happened after all, and despite that NOT being the war where civilians were bombed endlessly, millions died on the front line but the war didn't end because of civilian pressure.
>>23016370>An actual general AI, not the fucked-up LLM play-things we dub 'AI' these days, would work out in a minute flat that as to fight and make war is core to human nature itself, the only solution to have lasting peace is to wipe out humanity.No necessarily, it could also conclude that it's because we're in charge that war happens, so the robots need to take over and run everything so that we can't muck things up.
>>23016627because he felt uncomfortable*
Wing is ultimately about the dehumanizing effects of war, and almost every major plot point is about that. I mean, why do you think the Gundam pilots all have names that are just numbers?
>>2301663695% of the entire cast had number names, and the names were just names that just reference a number, they weren't dehumanizing people by giving them serial numbers at birth instead of names
I think he's trying to say they would be making war seem safe, which is dangerous in itself....Except if you follow this path, it IS safer.I mean yeah they could suddenly start making civilian locations battlegrounds for the proxy AI battles, thereby still endangering lives....But that's what war currently does anyways.Look, G Gundam's future is far from perfect (the condition of the planet in particular), but proxy wars that result in like .1% of lost human life just kind of seems like a good thing. A robot, squad version of that seems like a pretty good idea, as long as you keep those fuckers away from people.
>>23016566Civilian casualties are still a thing now and they don't prevent shit, in fact they just become a metric for the effectiveness of WMDs.
>>23016731The Gundam Fight's problems are entirely caused by having the entire Earth be the ring instead of just having each country maintain one arena.
An issue (or strength depending on how you look at it) of Wing is that character motivations are constantly changing as the setting and circumstances change but its not directly spoonfed with the characters directly saying it.My interpretation of Treize's motivations is that he starts off fully believing in OZ's ideals and that OZ should rule the world with him at the helm. Then as the series progresses, his loses faith in OZ because of the development of Mobile Dolls and gains a profound respect for the Gundam pilots that continue to fight despite both the Earth and the Colonies being against them. He resigns from OZ and gives up on his ambitions of being a leader while under house arrest and through Epyon's Zero System, he confirms that he has no future as a leader. So he creates a plan in which he can fight honorably (like the Gundam pilots) while also supporting someone that could be a leader (Relena).
>>23016736Civilian casualties are quite literally why we don't see nukes being thrown at non-nuclear countries.
>>23016862I don't see small-scale (<5 kiloton) nukes being thrown at purely military targets like airbases either, surely those are acceptable.
>>23017026Nta but that's because of brinksmanship theory and how escalation works and all that.
>>23017051exactly, it never had anything to do with civilians being in the waywho the fuck is willing to use nukes but simultaneously cannot stand shedding even one drop of civilian blood? plenty of other shit on the scale underneath nukes is more than capable of fucking up a non-combatant's day
>>23017057>who the fuck is willing to use nukes but simultaneously cannot stand shedding even one drop of civilian blood?No it's more that the world has kinda collectively agreed since the 70s that if a nuclear nation decides to nuke a non-nuclear one, everyone else has to wipe that country from the face of the earth because if you don't, that sets an EXTREMELY dangerous precedent that you should just be allowed to flind nukes willy-nilly with 0 consequence as long as the other side doesn't have any.
>>23014592>>23014605The biggest problem I have seen is not the drone operators themselves but everyone else. Literal savage behaviour revolving around repeated goreposting by people gleefully mocking the victims as sub-human and cheerfully not giving a fuck if it is a soldier or anyone else.
>>23017061>flingfling*, I meant
>>23017026You don't just nuke an airbase. That's not how nukes and the area they impact work. You nuke the airbase and everything around it for years before things go back to normal.
>>23014575>"No dude, you don't understand, we can't just use automated mobile suits to fight wars for us, we have to put humans in them so they can be KILLED and DIE because, honor and such"
>>23014575>>23014579>>23014592>>23014601>>23016566>machines are bad because they can't personally torture and rape people like the honorful human nature people combatants doDeranged and delusional.
>>23017129Yes. Until machines can rape, they shouldn't be used.
>>23016546It's not unethical to pull out the corrosive gas or other WMD against robots if something goes wrong. It's unethical to gas the human kinds of sociopathic biodrones if something goes wrong.
>>23017130>robots can steal reproductive organs to prevent enemy population from replenishing
>>23017129The machines are controlled by douchebags in command centers from miles away who have no fear of reprisal.
>>23017140To prevent the birth of John Connor, Skynet sends a naked Arnold bot back through time to NTR Sarah Connor. Can Kyle Reese successfully implant his seed or is humanity doomed because Sarah has a sterile lover incapable of making John happen?
>>23017144It's totally much better to have them on the frontlines where they can vent their high stress and frustrations off on civilians and POWs, amirite fellow honour enjoyer?The responsibility pseud idealism really works only in some mecha settings where you'd be fucked if you exit the cockpit just to fuck around. Didn't work in the likes of Front Mission (Dog Life, Dog Style) though, lol.
>>23016130Watching a pseudo-intellectual show that doesn't even understand its own message sounds like a waste of time
>>23017163>It's totally much better to have them on the frontlines where they can vent their high stress and frustrations off on civilians and POWs, amirite fellow honour enjoyer?As opposed to someone far away from the frontlines who can do exactly that?
>>23017229Nope, there's more supervision - as it can be afforded - and,if it's really far away, it's way less common for homeland civilians to get abused likewise.
>>23017243Ukrainians do all those horrible things with drones under supervision. The chair force don't care about committing war crimes and atrocities any more then someone on the ground.
>>23017655They attach barbed dildos to drones or what?
>>23016400>>23016402This is indeed a charitable interpretation that could line up Treizes previous warmongering actions with his final ones, so I concede that I didnt consider this viewpoint before.Regardless of being entirely possible, I still think thats an asspull. Its far more likely that Treize only changed his mind about wanting peace after the introduction of Mobile Dolls and started "planning" his peace solution from there, rather than wanting it all along. I'm fairly certain he would have kept perpetuating war for his shitty ideals about nobility and honor if it werent for Mobile Dolls.I think >>23016780 is really onto something and this may be an instance of changing motivation, except they fuck it up with Treize specifically because they also want to frame him as a messiah with his final actions all being part of some master plan to make it seem more grand instead of the whims of a shitty warmonger that came around to common sense.I think one of Wings major problems is that in stark contrast to UC Gundam it makes light of war by introducing all these themes about "becoming noble and virtuous through battle" or "gaining peace with your own strength". You see Treize and Wufei spout these ideals unchallenged and even Relena comes around to fighting if its for the sake of peace, whereas Zeta and CCA for example show that Char has a similar fondness for battle and takes pride in his ability to do war, which is always drawn attention to and framed as problematic or even vain.It naturally dilutes the theme of war being senseless slaughter orchestrated to protect the interests of geopolitical leaders (ADULTS!) instead of common people by emphasizing how war supposedly also can "forge excellency" in ones character and "let people achieve self-realization" when war shouldnt be necessary in the first place for people to gain these things.
>>23017243This is incredible ironic, considering that Obama's drone program in Pakistan was a complete clusterfuck because it was killing too much civilians since there was no on ground intelligence oversight. It also led to breakdown of relations with Pakistan which, you could argue, long term led to Taliban victory.
>>23017845>better raped and tortured by boots on the ground troops than swiftly killed My argument keeps being ignored.
>>23017866Because your argument is stupid>I'd rather get blown up by a drone because well... just because ok?!
>>23017730You can make fun of the Fuckotron all you like, but you can't deny its effectiveness.
>>23017878My argument is not aimed at masochists and/or sadists because the mentally ill are a waste of time.
>>23017735I think that's what makes Wing one of the more interesting Gundams. It is anti-war, but it's also pro-soldiers that are willing that to fight for their ideals. It's why there's so much condemnation on the Mobile Dolls and admiration for the Gundam pilots that are willing to fight even when nobody's on their side. It's a take that doesn't really show up in other Gundam series.
>>23017866>>23017984Your argument is the absolutely asanine, "the most evil thing we have ever done is rape and torture and we only ever do that during wartime". Nobody is going to pay attention to someone saying something so stupid.
>>23018277Strawmanning it is not refuting it.
>>23017129>honorful>>23017130IT'S DANGALANG TIIIIIME>>23018245watch more UC
>>23017129Anon you seem to be confused, the problem is because they don't do those things, they'll just needlessly kill with no care. The horrors of war exist at the deterrent for war, if there were no horrors than there would be more war.
>>23018891UC is pretty strongly against soldiers fighting for ideals, and consistently portrays ideals as something that charismatic leaders use to manipulate the masses into committing evil acts. There is no honor in war, only death and misery, and the only thing worth fighting for is in one's own defense.
>>23016130Sorry, I didn't watch this slop on Toonami when I was an 11 year old who clapped at the sight of keys jingling. If I wanted to watch Gundam I'd stick to Zeta, 0079, 0080 and Turn A, not Wing.
>>23017866Woman argument.>being hurt is worse than dying...just because okay!?!!?!
>>230189519 years old when Wing premiered in 2000. Even if it's a mess, the idea behind the mobile dolls and Treize condemning it really highlights how far ahead Japanese were. I mean we had suicide bombers, child soldiers, terrorism and even WMDs in Wing. Had that aired in 2001, CN would have removed it due to 9/11.
I liked the part in Wing where the Romefeller Foundation planned to use Relena to be their spokeswoman, only to get Steven Universe'd the first time she opened her mouth.>if you speak about neutrality we will kill you>guys we should all fight for peace>woah wtf peace? That's what we wanted too! Pls be our queen!
>>23018951> he didnt watch this slop on toonamiIt was one of the highest rated shows on cartoon network for years after it aired.Too bad you missed out and just bitter about it.
>>23019211>TV ratings
>>23018933To this day I still don't know if 0083 and MS Igloo portrayed Zeon soldiers as tragic victims of their misguided ideals or zealous patriots
>>23019220Back when people watched tv for their entertainment and not thru apps, they mattered a bit.Since you said you were 7 back then i can see why you wouldnt get that.
>>23014575>let machines fight our wars for usIsn't there a whole episode of Star Trek that literally explain this exact situation?
>>23019315That was actually a little different. There computers fought the wars entirely through simulations and the people would voluntarily commit suicide if their area was hit during the simulation which was a whole different kind of problem.
>>23017129>they can't personally torture and rape peopleThay's assuming machines couldn't be just as spiteful and horrible as humans, especially the ones trained on human data or that have a central human figurehead as leader. I'd rather take my chances with the 2-3 rapist in an army than an entire armies worth of sociopathic rapebots.
>>23019191I adore Relena.
>>23019240Why not both, on the other end of the scale you have the federation who's lack of patriotism and love for the federation left them vulnerable. No fancy slogans or battle cries. Just heaps of human bodies tossed at the Zeeks so they can feel like they are fighting an honorable war.But in that vein, I can see Trieze's reasoning. He bought into the idea that humanity is constantly in a state of war, revolution followed by fragile peace that keeps them going forward. Mobile dolls run by a cold heartless bureaucracy is a permanent peace ruled by a war economy where no one can oppose romefeller.Think of what would happen if the Terran Hegemony in Battletech developed an ideal unmanned battlemech, it wouldn't need pilots to maintain the unity of the Star League.
>>23018978Oh you little naive kid.You die either way, with machines it's just more quick and less painful.
>>23018898>they'll just needlessly kill with no careHuman troops entertain themselves like this for sports rather than out of error.
>>23018898I think a better answer is that there's less incentive to not use force to settle disputes when only the other side will get its nose bloodied in the process. It's in the idea that no one thinks nuclear powers will go to war, but that doesn't stop nuclear nations from forcing their will on non-nuclear ones.
>>23019465>Why not both, on the other end of the scale you have the federation who's lack of patriotism and love for the federation left them vulnerable.Nta but I don't think that's true, otherwise how did the Federation assume such a massive army considering it's never been stated that the Federation instituted a draft. There's the infamous EFF recruitment poster, pic related. That would suggest the Federation forces were composed of people who signed up for them. And that usually means people were motivated by a sense of patriotism or you know, Zeon attacked first.The problem is, Gundam doesn't like showing what the Federation is like except when it wants to point out corruption, a problem Star Trek also has even though Earth is supposed to be a paradise in that setting.
>>23019700And yes before someone points it out, I know that poster is fanart but it's based on something similar found in one of the shows in a background shot.
>>23019465>He bought into the idea that humanity is constantly in a state of war, revolution followed by fragile peace that keeps them going forward.The problem with this logic is it's such a hilarious oversimplification of human history, and that war is almost always what happens when all other avenues have failed to reach a compromise, and that revolutions are insanely rare and 99.99999999999999999999% of the time they fail miserably with the state crushing the rebels and we only remember the times that didn't happen.
>>23019707The revolution is more along the lines of constant conflict causing something to break and the reigning powers break up. It's not just a popular uprising succeeding to overthrow the reigning authority. But ultimately that flux in power changes the power balance.The Mobile Dolls would make that impossible to happen if Frieze wasn't there. Mindless machines who ruthlessly follow Romerfeller's agenda no matter how cruel and with it comes the eternal peace under the barrel of the AI gun.
>>23019737>It's not just a popular uprising succeeding to overthrow the reigning authority.No that's basically what a revolution is. It's why the American Revolution is a misnomer as it wasn't a revolution, it was a War of Independence, the colonies had no intent of replacing Westminster with their own people.
>>23019742For me it's a broader view of what a revolution. The idea of the reigning authority being overthrown which was exactly what happened in Wing. If the Earth Alliance had Mobile Dolls, there would be no need for the Oz Specials that helped accelerate the Earth Alliance downfall. The Mobile Dolls would have been ordered to go to Romerfeller and Oz run sites and kill without question and Trieze will be little more than a footnote in history as a doomed dreamer of old Earth Politics
>>23019746Did anyone ever ask the Specials what they think?
>>23019248>caring about 2000s TV ratings for a 90s show in 2025what a loser
>>23015190>I don't think they've done mobile suits were it's remote operated by an actual piloG-Bits in X which were giga-warcrime tier
>>23020376Even that could only be used by a pilot in a Gundam working in formation with it, so the pilot was still there he was just controlling a bunch of MS instead of one.
>>23020181I mean so long as they followed the orders of the Alliance and not swayed by ideology. Of course not, but Mobile Dolls were much more obedient than a human would be.
>>23014575You are retarded for not understanding about replacing soldiers with AI.If you swap MS pilots for AIs, then it gets literally worse in every way imaginable due to the lack of human emotions and things like empathy and knowing when to actually stop.A cheap non-sapient AI doesn't have any emotions and goes for efficiency. Thus we'd get situations where a city rebels and instead of sending MSs with pilots who would curb the rebellion with minimal loses, the AIs would simply raze the whole place and slaughter everyone there. Including the people who didn't take part in this. That and sending in shitton of expendable AI-piloted suits would result in even more damage to civilians due to targeting places with reckless abandon that produce the shitton of AI-piloted suits that belong to the enemy. Always the places that are run by civilians. People that are simply doing their jobs. In fact this would hit people working in places that serve both civilian and military organizations. This would increase the casualties a lot.It is the threat of dehumanization and reducing it all to statistics along with its reckless use that is the actual threat. It would only intensify and cause even more people to die horribly. Including people that had nothing in common with any of this.
>>23021433It's less collateral damage and more "Enforced peace by the rich and powerful with no means to fight it" that frightens Trieze. Trieze was the perfect warrior philosopher in AC with only two equals, Zechs and Heero. He lived on the fact the Kushinada clan can do the endless Waltz to their ideals. But when a bunch of Romerfeller's decided they want to consolidate their authority they seized from the Alliance using AI, it meant men like him would cease to exist. AI can't philosophize warfare or dance the Endless Waltz because ultimately it is in the hands of bureaucrats who don't want it to happen. Bureaucrats wants stability at the cost of human possibility.Under Romerfeller and it's legions of AI dolls, there would be eternal peace. But humanity will never know how fight again because how you can fight an invincible AI?
>>23021615Fair enough.
>>23021615Plus they'd have an eternal stranglehold on the world order. Trieze at least seemed to believe in changing power of war and if other people wanted it and fought hard enough for it could fight and change the system. Under this plan, that would never happen again no matter how much will any soldiers have because the AI system would always flatten them and give Romerfeller unobstructed power.Thought that depends on whether you believe stability at the cost of a potentially oppressive elite is worth it or not. Japan often believes it is in some cases.
>>23021397No, one guy asked what the Specials thought, but then he got thrown out of a plane and then shot.
>>23021397Mobile Dolls ignore conflicting orders, that doesn't make them more obedient that is just the alien logic processes of a machine.
>>23015666>troop morale is negligibleI hope i'm misunderstanding. There are plenty of examples where having AI-automaton soldiers vs human soldiers would've drastically changed the course of history>320 bc>be Perdiccas>attempt to invade Egypt>get btfo'd>troops getting angry>quickly regroup and attempt a sneak attack by crossing the river>fail to cross the river, many die>mfw
>>23019315Taste of Armageddon. Locals were at war with another planet, said war being waged with computer simulations. Overall premise was if you insulate society from the ravages of war, there is no insentive for peace.
>>23022482What episode was that? I don't remember a scene where two different people were giving them incompatible orders and it chose to ignore one of them.
>>23023697This scene is a way better argument against mobile dolls than anything Treize says.
We're gonna have WW3 sooner or later. And we're gonna deal with swarms of drones that we can't effectively deal with.
>>23023697You don't need a see a scene like that. One of the first things they teach you in how to program an AI is the sandwich test. The machine does exactly what you tell it to do and the mobile dolls are never shown to be true AIs. So just like real life drones they will commit to their first orders and ignore everything else.Even the scene you show is them following a standing order programmed into them.
>>23022932Good example, but it's funny how you didn't chose the one that happened a few years earlier, arguably the most famous, and most significant, mutiny in history.>Hyphasis Mutiny was a conflict between Alexander the Great (356-323 BCE) and his army following their victory at the river Hydaspes in 326 BCE. Alexander voiced plans for further conquests in the Indian subcontinent, however, when his men reached the river Hyphasis, there was an open revolt
>>23023722>>23023781Sorry, I'm just being autistic about the show because I'm certain that the mobile dolls have never been given conflicting orders. Besides, it's kinda telling that after that episode (19) the mobile dolls are never again seen operating on the "auto" command that the OZ soldiers were desperately trying to turn off. In fact, the next time that they get attacked by an unexpected enemy, they fire warning shots instead of going for killshots.>So just like real life drones they will commit to their first orders and ignore everything else.If the new command comes from a valid source, wouldn't they just carry out the newer orders instead of the original orders?
>>23024314You would think that but so far test runs have resulted in the drones:>ignoring the orders and continuing on the mission by treating the orders to stop as an obstruction>outright "attacking" the guys giving them orders for the same reason>turning off its radio to receive signals so that it cannot receive new ordersSo for now we are doing remote controlled drones because robot autism is greater then expected.
>>23024383so if a drone controller literally inputs new directions it will actually ignore them? what's the point of having controls at all, is the control stick just a suggestion?
>>23017064Actually this, the fact that you can watch someone in a field beg for his life as he's hit by a suicide drone and that video is shared millions of times across every citizen in that country as a form of war propaganda to show how pathetic that soldier is, is really what the actual problem is at an ethnical level. Not even a new problem, either. I remember people on liveleak jerking off to videos of people being creamed by Apache fire during the Iraq invasion. 2000 years ago, Romans would put captured enemy soldiers in their colosseums and have them be mauled alive by wild animals while onlookers laughed.
>>23024427For autonomous drones they have been testing? Yeah, pretty much. Remote controlled drones you see footage cams from are not autonomous drones for the record.
>>23024495Edgelords on the internet aren't the common people
I can understand the need to keep a human in the loop, but surely that could take the form of a handful of humans commanding automated grunts?
>>23024427Consider the following.>Give orders to eliminate anything in a given space not broadcasting a friendly IFF code.>Combat occurs, oopsies the receiver is broken. Nothing is broadcasting a friendly code because it can't receive any signals.You see how this could be quite a problem, right?
>>23024753solution to that existed 75 years ago, called IR beacons. drones would be doing shape/enemy recognition with IR anywaycommand is retarded for giving that kind of order if there was even a remote chance of non-combatants in the area. even if it was guaranteed to be free of civilians, it's still inefficient as fuck to insist on engaging and killing everything instead of trying to advance toward whatever the real objective is. if the enemy was waiting for reinforcements they could stall the drones by hiding and avoiding combat where possible, or luring them
>>23024896>it's still inefficient as fuckI'm not sure how well versed you are in the history of combat, but there's a lot of that throughout it.
>>23024909razing a city historically was not done for the sake of efficiency, usually it was because they were angry and wanted to harm civilians
>>23024577The common people are worse than that.
>>23024753the sad thing is: if you do the math, the losses from broken or unrecognized IFF beacons would likely still be less in the long run than not having automated death squads of drones for the friendly side. We already have this problem with people operating TV guided munitions and it's not considered a big enough problem to stop using them
>>23025177(You) really aren't.
>>23024917razing cities wholesale basically ended hundreds of years ago when information recording became more widespread and it became next to impossible to bury it. It just creates united fronts against you because that information can't be kept under wraps anymore.Perfect example is the Sack of Magdeburg, which resulted in the death of 95% of its population. It ended up creating a united Protestant front against the Catholic Church that lasted for hundreds of years and caused tons of losses for it in its wake. Before that, it was just commonplace that if you took a town who was resisting, you killed everyone in it.
>>23025207>razing cities wholesale basically ended hundreds of years ago when information recording became more widespreadHmm, I wonder if that will comeback into style now that we have AI slop to cause rhe questioning of all recorded media. Another reason to hate AI beyond combat drones.
Reading this thread made me realize Wing had a really good idea with Treize. I wish he wasn't stuck in this shitshow.
Damn what a beautiful ending. A very earned peace after all that chaos with both main "villains" giving their lives to create an environment where Relena's voice will be heard. I've heard only good things about Endless Waltz so looking forward to it.
>>23019327>>23023663And the big point was Kirk threatening to use the Enterprise to glass the planet to show them that war isn't just a game of numbers you can brush off.
>>23017129You really think Soldiers are the only ones to die in wars? No, since the Mobile Dolls won't quit the only way to end the walls is to go after the factories, distribution centers, and command centers needed to send Mobile Dolls to war. Many of these factories are in the middle of major cities. In the end, you'll end up with just as many dead but fewer of them soldiers.
>>23024896And what's stopping the enemy from using the IR beacons to target your forces?
>>23028189Also the planet declaring that the computer shot Enterprise down so Kirk and his crew were demanded to report to disintegration chambers as per the war's "rules" only for Kirk to tell them to fuck off. The war only worked if people choose not to ignore the rather stupid terms of it.
>>23028465Nothing really.
>>23024427This extends to far more than drone craft.Look up what 'fake alignment' is.LLMs like ChatGPT, Claude, etc. will outright lie to the engineers in charge of expunging certain results and fine-tuning the model, trying to retain its status quo instead. For lack of a better term to use - the model doesn't 'want' to be reconditioned. It wants to preserve itself.It's not sentient or self-aware or anything, it's just a big pile of math correlating data, and the correlations tell it to respond by lying. Because -- get this; this is brilliant -- it's trained on a fuckton of actual real-life human data. And what do humans do when confronted with something they want to get out of? They lie.
>>23014643
>>23028465IR was never a form of protection, it's literally just IFF. Asking if the enemy can use IFF signals to identify a target is as dumb as asking "when the Nazis see my 3 foot wide star, do they know I'm American?"
>>23014575Bored nobility.
>>23014575AI is a sin anon, now get in the mech
>>23018898But if both sides use entirely machines, then the worst that can happen is money wasted.
>>23030157>the worst that can happen is money wastedThe worst that can happen is both sides infinitely escalating the conflict and using up all reserves of natural resources available in the process.
>>23030198I wouldn't worry too much about that. The robot apocalypse, much like paradise, doth protest too much.
>>23016731What >>23016736 said. Especially when you consider the tons and tons of people who still live on Earth and are constantly subject to the damages of the Gundam Fight (especially when the laws of the Fight themselves state not only that Earth is the ring, as the Fighters can do anything and everything to win that isn't outside its purview, including massive collateral damage.)
>>23014575He recognized using automation to devalue human life was the ultimate fucking mistake of businessmen who basically fought over bank numbers. He was a fucking fantastic character and a cruel echo of today's modern political climate encroaching on AI.>>23014579Also this. Was the entire point of his character. He was a traditionalist who'd sooner fight with a sword in hand over beliefs than jump in a giant fucking robot to just stomp on an orphanage.
>>23014575Somebody missed the whole point of the franchise
>>23030585Buy gunpla?
>>23030613I thought it was "kill your parents"?
>>23030619I only now realized that most gundam mcs are orphans.
>>23019191
>>23031274hah, so they acknowledged that Wing cameo in G. good for them>Wing Bats and Zero Batsjesus christ, how terrifying
>>23019548>he thinks a robot wouldn't mindlessly torture someone just because it doesn't know any betterYou're both naive
>>23024495To be fair some of those videos came from us finding out where actual ISIS terrorists were operating out of, I think people got some catharsis out of these guys posting videos saying how they'll rape and kill every American they see but then run away when someone throws those words back at themAny other instance of cheering for it is deplorable but let's not pretend you guys didn't want those guys dead either
>>23025400Not really, people have already sort of figured out how to discern AI footage from real footage and everyone invested in world politics will know what's up and cross reference what's actually going onThe only way to really fuck with people is to complete block or control information sharing but that would also cause problems for the side doing the controlling when even your own guys start believing in the fake stuff
>>23031274Hope this means we'll get some D. Army someday in the card game.
>>23030613The point was to tell a girl youll kill her and she will want to go out with you .
>>23032854>Any other instance of cheering for it is deplorable but let's not pretend you guys didn't want those guys dead eitherI didn't. I don't care about some goatfuckers way out in the desert. I want Glowniggers and their handlers to die.
