If you disagree with this, you’re mentally deranged and don’t deserve forgiveness.
>>41789754Twilight is in the OP tho..(hi twilight)
>>41789819It’s an alternate universe (sadly non-canon) Twilight who did the right thing. I wish she were real!!!
>>41789734OP is a fagetShe was evil because she was deprived of cock, no one was kind enough to rape her
>>41789734>defiles the magic of friendship she was personally taught to ruin the entire world for her own benefitCozy is no different than a dirty jew abusing the capitalist system.
Hooray, Derpy saves the day!
>>41789867
“I HATE WHEN CHILDREN ARE MURDERED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” - Every normal person ever.
>>41789734Not wrong.
>>41789734Why do people here like this character? She's the dumbest fucking addition to the show since friendship castle, I get pedos just want to fuck her but why does anyone else defend this one note retard?
>>41790137Because they're faggots who want to be dommed by her for some reason
>>41790146>for some reasonWhat does that mean? Aren’t the reasons obvious?
>>41790151WHO WOULDN’T WANT TO GET DOMMED BY A GODLY AND PERFECT FILLY?!!?!?!?!!?!!?!??!??!?!??!???!!!!!?!?!!?!
>>41790153A normal fucking person, gaylord
>>41790162Wrong.
>>41790164Nor/mlp/erson here, I like mares, not your evil sherly temple parody filly
>>41790173WELL YOU SHOULD LIKE HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>41790188Back to r/mylittlecreature with you
>>41790191I don’t even know what that is.
>>41789734kys, GollyFag McBabyface
>>41790374I like that name. :)
>>41789867Gross kill Derpy.
>>41790901Don’t worry, Cozy already did.
>>41790383What the fuck?
>>41790912What?
>>41789734Cozy deserves to be burned at the stake. Stoning is too lenient of a punishment.
>>41791042Wrong she needed impaling with a stake my stake, the one in my pants
>>41791042Eat my shit.
>>41789734this but the bottom panel is me fucking golly
>>41789867>>41789881>>41790901>>41790907jokes on us, derpy died over 5 years ago along with the other beings.
>>41790901*Good kill, Derpy!Keep working on your English, it's 2025 I believe in you ESL bro.
>>41791433no
Justice for Golly!>>41791255Since Celestia is an evil tyrant that murders defenseless children, I’m assuming that means Daybreaker is actually good. Do you think her and Cozy could team up?
>>41789867kek
Any good fixfics for Golly?
>>41789734Sir, this is /mlp/
>>41793845That is correct.
>>41789734Children are not above being punished, her being turned to stone is the nicest thing they could've done.
>>41793889There's degrees of punishment and stoning her was overly cruel and unnecessary.
>>41793897she should have been raped by 6 million stallions
Cozy got off easy, considering Luna was sent to the moon for 1000 years.
>>41793897She proved time and time again that she was unwilling to change, punishment fits the crime of attempting to drain the literal life force of all of equestria TWICE. Turning to stone was mercy
Everyone, please know this. Everyone deserves a second chance. If any of you have made mistakes, you all deserve forgiveness. I love all of you.
>>41794495yes
>>41789734If Twilight decides to rid Equestria of magic, she is a hero, but if Cozy Glow, she is a villain, this says a lot about Equestria.
C'mon now. I don't even necessarily disagree with you argument, but this is like the fifth of these threads you've made now. Can't you make some new content for Cozy Thread instead?
>>41793929No she didn't. She did not prove that she was unwilling to change because no one ever gave her a chance and help to do so. And no, magic is not the life force. She was not going for some big genocide. She simply wanted to rule. Turning her to stone was wrong. She deserved the same chances that all the reformed villains got.
>>41796063Cozy was literally taught the magic of friendship. She had hundreds of chances given to her, more than anyone else. She rejected the very thing that is used to reform others. If anyone deserved stoning, it was Cozy.
>>41796090>She had hundreds of chances given to her, more than anyone else.You don’t watch the show and have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
>>41796090She was taught animal care and random history lessons. Hardly a reformation program. She never got a single chance. By that logic, Starlight had a million chances to come clean to her village, but never did. She did not reject anything because she was not given a chance to reject it.
>>41796118Exactly. They didn’t know who she was when she was “taught” about friendship through an obviously failed curriculum. Then they sent her to Hell forever, never checked up on her, then killed her without mercy once she escaped. What kind of psychopathic story is this?!
>>41796118Wrong, she was taught the magic of friendship. The school's teachings created a second group of element bearers which means the elements of harmony approves of the school's curriculum. Cozy learned about true friendship, rejected it, then manipulated everyone for gain.
>>41796149I was not wrong. It was hardly a rehabilitation program. And frankly, the Main 6 were just teaching whatever skills they were good at. Literally no villain would just reform with some random sewing classes.
>>41796118>reductionism based on a couple cherry picked instancesTwilight's lessons are based on her lived experiences and her friends as the elements of harmony. Your autism is showing.
>>41796164>misses the entire point of friendshipHoly kek
>>41796170Yea? And? Hardly a rehabilitation program. Simply taking part in a school won't change someone's mind.
>>41796118I guess the whole thing with CMCs just didn't happen, where they literally showed her friendship and accepted her and she lied and manipulated them. Some people are just evil and they will never change.
>>41789734I gave up after the first next gen movie the show was fucking painful to watch but did we ever find out how bad Twilight fucked up yet
>>41796294She clearly felt bad enough to confess to lying about the test.
>>41796130You're literally a pedophilic bugchasing faggot who leaps at the opportunity to have other anons shove their cocks in your ass if you think they live within 1,000 miles of you. Your opinion is worth nothing, you fudgepacking homo, and you should end your life as soon as possible.
>>41796414Her entire thing was lying and manipulating. Her "admitting" gives the guise that she is capable of learning friendship. When she obviously wasn't. Why are you being so dishonest about this.
>>41796448I forgive you for saying that.
>>41796474Look at her facial expression when they were kicked out.
>>41796448Whoa hey chill anon. Don't tell him to kill himself until I get a turn with him at Mare Fair.
>>41796164>fluttershy was only teaching them how to be a veterinarian>definitely not teaching about the values of kindness and helping others>dashie was only a buckball coach>definitely not teaching about the values of loyalty and working together as a team to accomplish something greater than themselvesHow does someone watch 200+ episodes of adorable ponies learning all about friendship still end up taking away absolutely nothing about friendship. The entire point of the show went right over your head. Rewatch the show, but this time keep your hands out of your pants and turn on your god damn brain, the show is so much more than cute ponies doing cute things.
>>41797610He was talking about the way the school was written. You cannot be a serious person and think that standardized tests on friendship or random bullshit about Equestrian history would actually help a single one of those students make friends in a universe that makes any goddamn sense at all. The school is a failed idea, because it makes no goddamn sense at all.
>>41797660The show used to make so much more sense than that. I don’t remember the exact quote, but I saw someone say recently that “It’s hard to imagine that the target demographic wouldn’t see the obvious problems with this idea,” which is so true. Kids would be rolling their eyes at the idea that a pop quiz could teach you anything about friendship that just playing with your friends wouldn’t.Having friends is actually awesome! How the fuck did they manage to make THAT suck and seem boing?!
>>41797610This fandom has so many literal autists and sociopaths. I don't think rewatching the show would even help because it's an issue with the formation of their brains.
>>41797715It’s an issue with the show.
>>41797721Maybe parts of the show? The earlier seasons lessons were simple and fun, later seasons are more "in your face"
>>41797725what does that even mean? earlier seasons seem a lot more in your face, they weren't subtle at all. most obvious are the blatant morals being told at the end of episodes which felt unnaturally tacked on.
>>41797735At least you could agree with the morals then. They never did an episode about how children deserve to be killed and sent to Hell forever.
>>41797735That's why many autists like the early seasons because it told them what to think. They're like ooooh so that's what the episode meant, I feel so smart now! If you don't shove the message in their face they won't understand what's happening.
>>41797766It’s a good crutch, because the writers seriously failed to convey the supposed “message” countless times. They should’ve kept doing it.
>>41789734Cozy Glow was probably not going to back down just by Twilight hugging her, but I believe Cozy Glow needed a lot of mental help, not to be turned to stone.
>>41797850>not going to back down just by Twilight hugging herDidn't mean to be literal here, I meant that simply showing Cozy Glow friendship, especially in the manner shown, would've just given her the upper hand in the situation and would've just been the wrong move. She is young, so I imagine she has the malleability of mind to eventually stop craving power so heavily and see the benefits of friendship for herself. It would take a lot of time and careful effort, but I don't see how it would be impossible. She is dangerous, this much is true, but there are any number of ways to disable her magic and keep ponies within a mental health facility informed as to not be manipulated by her.
>>41797872Did you make this image?
>>41797735>>41797766This is ironically enough the exact opposite of reality. The early seasons had to give summaries of morals at the end of the episodes yet they had much more developed and intriguing characters. As the show progressed the characters became dull and had everything about them shoved in your face. The show gradually lost its nuance and its ability to simply present something to the viewer and allow them to come to their own conclusions.It's also the opposite of reality in that the later seasons attract far more autists since autists largely fail to see what the earlier seasons were doing with the characters since it wasn't shoved in the viewer's face.
>>41798119Yeah, I see what you mean. Also, you need to focus a little more on “the moral” throughout the rest of the episode without a letter scene. Because the show is supposed to teach lessons, but it’s also supposed to tell a narratives. Most good stories are not solely about one lesson, they just have themes. So with the letter scene, you can take a theme within the episode and turn it into a lesson in the end. Without the letters, the characters have to be retards throughout most of the story so you can gst that “lesson learned” moment.Does that make sense?
>>41797766Early seasons were definitely much more kid friendly, simple plots that were very predictable, the characters were walking stereotypes at first to make them easy to understand, plus the letter at the end to nail the message in a bright neon sign. Not much room for interpretation, but I can get why some people like that simplicity, it's comfy I suppose.>>41798119kek, your insecurity is showing. It's okay to like the early seasons for what it is, no need to pretend that it's something that it's not. But thanks for explaining why I enjoy the later seasons a lot, the show slowly gained more nuanced interpersonal drama and interesting character development over time as arcs and continuity became increasingly important.
>>41798194>the show slowly gained more nuanced interpersonal drama and interesting character development over time as arcs and continuity became increasingly important.>kek, your insecurity is showing.Projecting.
>>41798198There's no shame in liking a kid's show, love and tolerance, brother. I liked it too /)
>>41798204FiM was always a kid's show. The difference being that early on the show detested the common "they're just kids" mindset while as the show progressed that infected it more and more. Early FiM has far greater ability for people to keep returning to it and finding more things to appreciate about it. FiM started out as pretty great children's media and over time degraded into being mediocre and forgettable.
>>41798227Disagreed, the show clearly catered to adults more as it went on in both its storytelling and themes. Personally, it's the later seasons that I find more memorable and keeps me coming back to find new things to appreciate, but I'm happy you can still find things in the old seasons that you enjoy.
>>41789734News flash: no one DESERVES forgiveness.
>>41798233It catered to millennials, but I don't exactly think calling them adults is quite honest.
>>41798234Yes, they do.
>>41789832this, no one dared to fiddle that filly
Golly deserved better.
>>41789734>you’re mentally deranged and don’t deserve forgivenesslike Cozy Glow
>>41790137>>41790146This. Gollyfags be like "everyone deserves forgiveness" but I have never once seen a single person advocate that Storm King deserved forgiveness and that him turned to stone and shattered was excessively cruel. The show was never about redeeming everyone, it only became a problem when it hit their waifu.
>>41799679Agreed.>>41799682No.
>>41799698Jeez, how hard is this to understand? For starters, Storm King did himself in. Nobody intentionally killed him. Secondly, Cozy Glow is a CHILD. Thirdly, all three of them were completely defenseless.
>>41789734Wasn't there a story where someone broke them out of the statues? I remember it was written right after this episode came out, but I can't remember the name of it at all
>>41799705>Storm King did himself in. Nobody intentionally killed him.And nobody killed Cozy. She's still alive, enjoying the view of the gardens :)>Secondly, Cozy Glow is a CHILD.Yet she never truly acts like one, she has the cunning and remorselessness of an adult.>Thirdly, all three of them were completely defenseless.Irrelevant. Talk shit get hit.
>>41799734>Irrelevant. Talk shit get hit.You support war crimes.
>>41799763Human war crimes are irrelevant to Equestrian ponies
>>41799773No. The show is meant to teach children lessons. The “lesson” of this episode is that murder is good. You never liked the show if you can enjoy this ending on any level. It’s an insult to itself.
>>41799734This. The she's a child excuse is so pathetic too.
>>41799796>The she's a child excuse is so pathetic too.It’s a show for little girls. Little girls should never be murdered, and little girls should never be told that there’s any circumstance in which it would ever be good for them to be murdered. Murdering children is ALWYS evil!!!
>>41799794Murdering Sombra and Storm King was good so yeah it can be good.>>41799796I mean I do think the writerst should have written her to be secretly older, or a shapeshifter, or a body snatcher or something. Her being just an extremely evil child with no explanation is pretty strange and allows cozyfags to keep playing the victim card, even if it's the only argument they have because she never shows any redeeming traits in the show.
>>41799819>Murdering Sombra and Storm King was good so yeah it can be good.Neither of them were murdered.
>>41789734Here, if she was a young teenage, she would have 3 years in prison and ~$7000.So, turning her to stone, knowing it's not permanent, is not out of proportions when you take in account that she tries to destroy all life in Equestria twice.Also, she knows Friendship very well, she teaches and applied it to form the "baddies 3">>41799825I'm pretty sure Sombra is dead.I mean, he was "reinvoked" already by Grogar, so, now, either one can do the same, or he is gone for good.Either way, he is not kicking around anymore.Also, my headcanon is that he never returned, and it was just Discord puppeting him to make his plan work. But that's just my head canon.
>>41799856>I'm pretty sure Sombra is dead.No, I’m distinguishing between “murder” and “killing.” An act of self-defense that results in the death of the attacker is NOT murder.
>>41797900Nah, I did not
>>41799860Chrysalis could have still attacked everyone with her regular magic, Tirek could have start draining the magic from regular ponies, and Cozy could have seduced all the adult ponies. They needed to be dealt with.
>>41799773>>41799794>>41799819>>41799825Solar holocaust will happen to our planet, be warned.
>>41800222Dear trips Anon,I don't like your message.Except if "Solar Holocaust" is a pony of course.Sincerely,Anon.
>>41800348Solar holocaust is a serious event.no need to sign your posts.
>>41799865>Chrysalis could have still attacked everyone with her regular magicShe's just one changeling, who has previously preferred to run rather than fight when confronted with far smaller odds (in TWABA, when she's "merely" facing one set of Elements, Discord, the Princesses, and the reformedchangelings - in TEOTE she's facing that plus dragons, yaks, hippogriffs, griffons, and ponies, plus the Pillars, plus the Student Six).She was not a threat.>Tirek could have start draining the magic from regular poniesIt's made expressly clear in his debut episode that at that level of power he can only take magic from unicorn ponies. He needs to drain a significant amount of magic before he can take it from earth ponies or pegasi. This is also not something that can be done at a range; he's shown to need to get very close to a unicorn to drain their power.He was not a threat.>and Cozy could have seduced all the adult poniesNo, she couldn't. It's made very clear that Cozy is completely powerless to manipulate people who just plain don't want to help her; in "Frenemies", for example, Rusty Bucket doesn't know who she is and even wants to be her friend, but he also just plain refuses to help her climb Mt. Everhoof and she is powerless to force him. She's just a kid, with all the powers (read: none) that entails.She was not a threat.
>>41801168nta, but:>Chrysalis In 'To Where And Back Again', she manages, with her changelings, to cocoon all the princesses and mane6. It was more or less by luck that Glimmer won over her (with the changelings reformation).Of course Chrysalis is a threat, but not for attacking front off, she is powerful, but not at this point. Her strength is manipulation and formenting.>TirekAnd yet, in S09E17, he can drain ponies magic. He should have drained as much as possible in the finale, and relied too much on the bell.He was a threat at that level of power, 100%.>CozyAs manipulative and perverse as she is, I agree with you, she wasn't a threat in the heat of the event.But managing to barely destroy the world (or modify so much it become barelands) even through manipulation and lying, is a serious threat.And she was already punished for that exact same thing, and evaded her punishment.If stone casting is temporary, that's a suitable punishment for what she did.
>>41801237All of them can be safely reformed. More so then Discord at least.
>>41799865The only adult pony who is a pedophile is Rarity and she's not a lesbian.
>>41799819>allows cozyfags to keep playing the victim carddoesn't matter she's dead anyway
>>41801237>ChrysalisYes, *with her changelings*. But by Season 9 those changelings are now on the good guy's side. By the time she's hit with the mother of all harmony lasers and depowered she's just some changeling who's no match for the literal army arrayed against her.>TirekIn S9E17 he was at a higher level of power. After the mother of all rainbow blasts, he's reduced to his "unicorn magic only, and it takes time and requires me to be close" power level. He is not a threat.>CozyCozy didn't evade her punishment. She was serving it before, through no action or will of her own, she was removed from her prison by Discord, who has godlike power.Also, three things worth noting about Tartarus.1. After being placed in Tartarus, Tirek was so thoroughly forgotten about by Celestia that she didn't even know he'd escaped until at minimum months after the fact. And he only managed to escape because Tartarus' warden Cerberus just wandered off and left the door open, again without anyone even realizing it until Cerberus happened to stomp into Ponyville.2. After being placed in Tartarus again, Tirek wasn't monitored at all such that no one knew he was receiving letters from Cozy Glow, nor somehow sending them out.3. After Cozy and Tirek are broken out of Tartarus by Discord, no one realizes this fact.A lot of the fault of Tirek's rampage in Season 4 and most of the events of Seasons 8-9 can be laid at the hooves of the ponies for running a shitty penal system where they don't even monitor the inmates.
>>41801168>t-they were not a threat in this very specific moment in time!Their evil ambitions are ceaseless and Equestria will always be in danger if they're around.
>>41802698>and Equestria will always be in danger if they're around.Which would be a more impactful statement if Discord wasn't running around free. You realize he's actually nearly destroyed Equestria more times *since* his supposed reformation than he did *before* it, right? Equestria was literally a safer place back when he was still a villain.He also got an entire 22-minute episode where a determined effort was made to reform him, which ultimately doesn't even work. He doesn't become better, he just in that moment doesn't want to lose something he likes (Fluttershy being nice to him). That doesn't stop him from setting up a "heads I win tails you lose" situation with the Plundervines, nor does it stop him from siding with Tirek at the first opportunity and laughing remorselessly in Fluttershy's face about this fact when confronted about it.And even after *that* it was still two more seasons before Discord finally appeared in an episode where he was neither the cause of the problem nor deliberated acted to make an existing problem worse.Sorry, but as long as Discord - the godlike spirit of chaos, evil, and confusion whose initial appearance and description is loaded with literally Satanic imagery - is running around free and constantly forgiven his tresspasses, then any argument that any other villain is too evil or too dangerous is just inantely a nonstarter.
>>41802698Not if they reform them.
>>41801855>All of them [headcanon]Chrysalis outright refused redemption, Cozy never once showed any remorse, and Tirek was literally introduced as the villain that was more evil than Discord.
>>41802873>Cozy never once showed any remorseWho gives a shit?! What kind of psycho justification for child murder is this?!?!!?!“Your honor, the child didn’t seem sorry, so I just shot her in the face without talking to her.”
Why would Cozy Glow show remorse to the ponies whose immediate response to one mistake was to throw her in Hell and never once even check on her wellbeing?
>>41802736>Equestria was literally a safer place back when he was still a villain.That's absurd. During his reign life in Equestria was daily suffering under conflict and an uncaring world of anything goes. After that he just messes with others every now and again.>He doesn't become betterDiscord technically helps save Equestria multiple times. Tirek wouldn't have been defeating without him giving the last key in S4, Thorax and Starlight would have been captured without him distracting the changelings, and in the finale Mane Six wouldn't have escaped without him goading Tirek. Whenever he fucked up, he had to do something to help others later to gain their trust back. That's pretty obviously better than how he was before and how the other villains were in the finale.
>>41802873>Chrysalis outright refused redemptionSo did Discord, twice.>Cozy never once showed any remorseNeither did Luna, Discord, or Tempest Shadow. Discord openly mocked the idea of being reformed and Tempest sang an entire song about how pointless any effort to try to get through to her was.>and Tirek was literally introduced asthe villain that was most screwed over by Equestria's shitty penal system, yes, I agree.Tirek doesn't do anything more evil than Discord in his debut episode. In point of fact I think a strong argument can be made that he is markedly LESS evil than Discord in "The Return of Harmony". After all, Discord in his debut is clearly depicted as someone who doesn't just enjoy chaos for its own sake, but because it allows him to torment ponies. Hence why the stained-glass window that introduces him is depicted with him dangling ponies over a lake of fire while we hear anguished screams, and hence why his reaction to Twilight finally breaking is a triumphant "YYYYYESSS!", not to mention the fact that he took personal delight in corrupting each of the other M6. Tirek, by contrast, takes magic and then leaves ponies alone with no further attempt to torment or harm them. When he gets to the Princesses, he merely imprisons them in Tartarus in a mirror of how he was imprisoned, which seems like a fair attempt at symmetry. And of course, when he cuts a deal with Twilight for alicorn power, once he had that power he keeps his word to give Twilight her friends back and even proceeds to leave Twilight and her friends alone rather than turn on them or attempt to harm them.
>>41802903>LunaLiterally was just cured of a split personality>DiscordWillingly gave up in S3 when no one forced him to do it.>TempestHelped the heroes after being betrayedDYEWTS?>this wall of cope about TirekHe was burning everything down, which is one of the worst ways to die, just to flex his power. Also, no one did any of these mental gymnastics after Twilight's Kingdom aired and everyone was fine with Tirek getting punished with no mercy. This is revisionism to try to whitewash a villain that was pretty blatantly created to be evil and irredeemable. Also, Discord is shown enjoying chaos for the sake of it that doesn't directly harm anyone plenty of times. Such as when M6 come to defeat him, he's just sitting on the throne praising the chaos around him without torturing anyone.
>>41802901>That's absurdIt's true. If we're limiting ourselves to the show, then Discord's actions heave nearly destroyed Equestria five times: - Once during his initial reign of terror 1,000 years ago - Once after breaking free in "The Return of Harmony" - The Plundervines he planted which started acting in "Princess Twilight Sparkle" - Teaming up with Tirek in "Twilight's Kingdom" - Unleashing the Legion of Doom throughout Season 9.That's two events *before* reformation and three events *since*. More prominently, the first two events had a thousand-year gap between them, while the next three happened over the course of, what, two, maybe three years?>Discord technically helps save Equestria multiple timesMore often than not, from problems that he was the cause of in the first place. "To Where and Back Again" is an exception, yes, and one I am perfectly willing to give him as literally the first time he appears in the show where he's neither the cause of the episode's problem, nor does he deliberately act to make an existing problem worse.But before that: - He planted the Plundervines, and though he could have stopped them at any time, he chose to let them continue to rampage because it set up a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose situation: either the Plundervines choke the life out of the Elements and he's free from their threat, or he can claim that he helped Twilight defeat them and so earn brownie points. Note his reaction to the Plundervines being destroyed is to say "aw, phooey". - Tirek was only a problem because one minute of conversation with the centaur was enough to convince Discord to abandon the ponies and regress back to evil and tormenting others without remorse, including mocking Fluttershy for trusting him or thinking that he'd changed. - And of course, he's the only reason any of the Trio were even a threat in the first place.>Whenever he fucked up, he had to do something to help others later to gain their trust backHe could've just, y'know, not fucked up in the first place.
>>41802917>Literally was just cured of a split personalityNo, she was not. Luna never, ever, ever in the show treats Nightmare Moon as being a separate personality or version of herself. She always, without fail, refers to herself and Nightmare Moon as being one and the same.>Willingly gave up in S3 when no one forced him to do it.Only because he was at risk of losing something he cared about, and that was expressly shown to be a temporary concern as come the Plundervines he was perfectly fine with letting Equestria choke, and come Tirek he was pefectly fine with hurting Fluttershy again.>Helped the heroes after being betrayedNo, fucking NO. WHY HAS NO ONE SEEN THE MOVE BUT ME FOR FUCK SAKE IT'S A GOOD MOVIE.1. Tempest gives the Storm King the Staff of Sacanas, asks for her horn back, promises to serve him loyally forever.2. Storm King mocks her, turns on her3. Brief beam struggle, both are knocked away. Twilight has a choice of grabbing the Staff or saving Tempest's life. At this point, Tempest has done NOTHING to suggest regret at what she'd done. She has not expressed remorse, sorrow, or guilt, in fact her most recent expression was a willingness to conquer and wage war forever if she got what she wanted.4. Twilight saves Tempest, a mare who DOES NOT deserve to be saved, rather than grab the Staff and save Equestria.To be clear, I like this, it's Twilight's best moment in the entire franchise as far as I'm concerned. But part of what makes it good is that Tempest *did not deserve to be saved*, but Twilight saved her anyway, because that's what friends do. Where was that in Season 9?
>>41802917>This is revisionism to try to whitewash a villain that was pretty blatantly created to be evil and irredeemable.The idea of an irredeemable villain in MLP went out the window when Discord was redeemed. He's literally the antithesis of harmony, the show's central tenets, and yet he's considered redeemed. If he can be redeemed then it can ONLY mean that literally anyone can be if only the effort is put in.Also, stop trying to gaslight me. I didn't raise too much of a stink about Tirek's defeat back in Season 4 because he wasn't killed and there was still plenty of show left and I just assumed that he'd be used later the same way Discord had, perhaps in a kind of Hannibal Lecter role - the role he filled in Season 8. Even if never redeemed, I never expected his end to come when he was powerless and at Twilight's mercy and Twilight just decided that she was out of mercy.>he's just sitting on the throne praising the chaos around him without torturing anyone.So we're just casually ignoring that at that very moment homes are floating in the air (and hoping that there are no foals stuck in them), Granny Smith is dancing uncontrollably, and Big Mac thinks he's a dog, his actual personality obliterated and replaced with one that is not his own. To say nothing of what Discord's done to the M6 by this point.The fact that he was taking a few moments' break doesn't change that he was a gleefully sadistic, evil fuck in "The Return of Harmony". That's like saying the Joker isn't that bad because he has to sleep or eat lunch on occasion.
>>41802926Teaming up with Tirek was just retarded writing in general, but Discord did that because everyone sans Fluttershy kept treating him like shit (which didn't really change after S4 so one could argue it's a testament to his willpower that he never backstabs them again). Plundervines were a masterfully executed plan where he was in control at all times. S9 was a potentially sound plan where he made a retarded mistake and let his control slip. But the main point is, the show doesn't take this strictly-consequentialist approach you take. Redemption in the show is always based on the offending party's intent. Everyone who was redeemed showed some capacity to be remorseful and restrain themselves. Everyone who didn't show any remorse wasn't redeemed.>>41802946Luna's personality is so drastically different from Nightmare Moon's it's a generally accepted assumption that Nightmare Moon is a corruption of sorts (which even the official comics went with). It wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Eve if you get anal and split hairs over that, you still can't say Luna wasn't remorseful and didn't suffer for this.>DiscordSee above, but he was also shown as conflicted all the way throughout that two-parter. >TempestShe still eventually helped the heroes and even sacrificed herself in doing so. We don't know what Twilight would've done to her if she kept stubborn even after being helped.>>41802965>The idea of an irredeemable villain in MLP went out the window when Discord was redeemed.No, not really. Plenty of people still held onto that, and most people didn't view Tirek as redemption material at all. Discord had the capacity to not be malicious. Chaos can exist in a controlled environment. I'd like to see how Tirek can peacefully coexist with anyone when his main modus operandi is directly harming other creatures.
>>41802917>He was burning everything downOut in the middle of nowhere where no-one could be hurt. Sorry, but the idea of Tirek the genocidal monster just doesn't match up to what we actually see on-screen, which is him leaving ponies alone after he has their power, being fair in his bargaining with Twilight, and merely doing unto the Princesses as had been done unto him.
>>41802996>the idea of Tirek the genocidal monster...is supported by the timeline where he wins and keeps burning everything down.>merely doing unto the Princesses as had been done unto him.And who was the first to attack and initiate the "doing"?>inb4 headcanon about Princesses waging war on Tirek a 1000 years ago that we were simply never shown
>>41802994>everyone sans Fluttershy kept treating him like shitNo proof of this. Twilight did, but in that very episode Discord mentions hanging out with Rarity, and in "Three's a Crowd" Pinkie Pie was friendly to him and wanted to hang out, but he sent her away with a balloon.Do YOU even watch the show?>Plundervines were a masterfully executed plan where he was in control at all times.Sure...but it's still him nearly destroying Equestria, dude.>where he made a retarded mistake and let his control slip.He made a series of retarded mistakes,s tarting with conceiving of the plan to begin with, then in not keeping an eye on the Trio even though he'd previously been demonstrated as willing to micro-manage his plans, and then by sending them to Mt. Everhoof, the location of an actual artifact that could actually be used against him, and finally by trusting the Trio when they claimed to have not been able to get said artifact instead of verifying things for himself.>Everyone who was redeemed showed some capacity to be remorsefulThe first time Discord shows any kind of remorse is in the third episode he appears in, the second story he appears in, and only towards its end. The episode BEGAN with Celestia simply deciding to give it a whirl based on nothing other than the fact that Discord's powers could be useful to her (her words, not mine), and Discord openly mocked the idea of being reformed and is immediately working against Twilight and Fluttershy's efforts to that effect from the start.Discord got a chance to show remorse because he was GIVEN a chance to show remorse, a chance over the course of at least several hours if not several days, its worth noting. Neither Tirek, nor Cozy, nor Chrysalis, were given similar chances. I guess they just wouldn't be useful enough.>it's a generally acceptedGood for you, you're wrong. Luna makes it plain that there is no dichotomy between Luna and Nightmare Moon, any more than there is a dichotomy between Octavian and Augustus. They are the same person. Your fan-fiction is not canon.>you still can't say Luna wasn't remorsefulAFTER being blasted by the Elements and given an expressed chance and offered hoof to change her ways, something which Tirek and Cozy have never received. Chrysalis has, but the fact that she rejected it shouldn't mean anything given that Discord and Starlight Glimmer also rejected offers at redemption out-of-hoof initially.>but he was also shown as conflicted all the way throughout that two-parter.Which, The Return of Harmony? No he wasn't! He was gleeful about his evil?Or do you mean Twilight's Kingdom? While he had moments of conflict, the last time we see him before Tirek turns on him, he's openly mocking Fluttershy's tears without a hint of regret, and then turning to Tirek to ask what they're gonna do next. Any conflict is clearly gone by that point.cont'd...
>>41803030>She still eventually helped the heroesYes, AFTER Twilight took an immense risk to save her even though she didn't deserve it. You don't think such a gesture might have played a role in her deciding to help out later?>No, not really. Yes, really. From a narrartive standpoint, there is no point in redeeming the literal antithesis of honesty, loyalty, kindness, laughter, generosity, and friendship, the underlying tenets of the entire show, unless it's to make it plain that redemption is possible for anyone. It's otherwise a narratively empty gesture that shouldn't have been done because it served no point.>Chaos can exist in a controlled environment. I'll remind you that it took until Season 6 until Discord finally appeared in an episode where he was neither the cause of the episode's problem nor taking an existing problem and deliberately making it worse - and that this didn't last for much more than a single season as by Season 8 he was back to causing problems and tormenting others as his Plan A way of interacting with them in "A Matter of Principles".>I'd like to see how Tirek can peacefully coexist with anyone when his main modus operandi is directly harming other creatures.So would I, but because we had shit writers for Seasons 8 and 9, we'll never get to.>>41803002>...is supported by the timeline where he wins and keeps burning everything down.We see that timeline for all of two seconds and have no idea what's happening in it. For all you know he's in the middle of a pitched battle with Chrysalis or Starlight or Sunset Shimmer or Trixie or someone in order to save Equestria. Not likely, but possible. We just don't know enough about what's going on.>And who was the first to attack and initiate the "doing"?Expressly Scorpan and Star Swirl, actually (at a time when we know for a fact that Star Swirl was a giant douche, too), but that was 1,000 years ago, and in the interim he'd been so thoroughly forgotten about in Tartarus that Celestia didn't even notice he'd escaped until months after the fact.Who knows how he'd be if someone had actually just tried to, y'know, HELP him? We see in "Frenemies" that he's perfectly willing to admit to his own limitations and work with others when needed (by his own admission, practically the moment he looked at Mt. Everhoof he knew he couldn't handle it alone and would need Cozy's and Chrysalis' help).He's one of only three villains in MLP who nearly reformed without help from the heroes, and that was while he had a sadistic draconequus actively encouraging him to give in to his negative impulses and be a worse person. Imagine what might have happened if he HAD been given someone in his corner who ACTUALLY wanted to help him.
>>41803030>No proof of this.Except for most ponies visibly being uncomfortable and abrasive whenever he's in the room. And they're within their right to act that way considering who he is, but it's an understandable motive to feel bitter.>his plansA bit of a risk for a noble cause in the game of Harmony. Scrambled eggs for an omelette. >The first time Discord shows any kind of remorse is in the third episode he appears inYes, which was the point he was redeemed at. Before that everyone was still considering doing away with him.>Discord got a chance to show remorse because he was GIVEN a chance to show remorseNothing prevented them from giving themselves up for reformation once they were freed by Discord. >Luna makes it plain that there is no dichotomy between Luna and Nightmare MoonWhy are they treated as different things in the first place then? Transformation implies change.>he's openly mocking Fluttershy's tears without a hint of regretYou conveniently left out that he looks away as Tirek is draining them.>You don't think such a gesture might have played a role in her deciding to help out later?Maybe it did, we don't know. But she did help out when no one was forcing her. >there is no point in redeeming the literal antithesisTo show that there are things worse than chaos? Chaos by itself isn't evil. Tyrannical oppression like that of Tirek or Sombra isn't strictly chaos, but it's not harmony either.>causing problemsInnocent pranks.>Expressly Scorpan and Star SwirNot Tirek when he attacked?>Who knows how he'd be if someone had actually just tried to, y'know, HELP him?We do know that, actually. Discord supported him in S4 with no strings attached, expecting nothing but a measly trinket in return, and Tirek replied by using and backstabbing him.>nearly reformed without help from the heroesBut they didn't reform, did they? And Discord wasn't standing there egging them on at the moment, they'd made that choice by themselves.
>>41803112>Except for most ponies visibly being uncomfortable and abrasive whenever he's in the room.His appearances after "Keep Calm" and prior to turning on the ponies are:1. Summoned after the Plundervines under suspicion that he was the cause of them, which was, in fact, true;2. Getting rid of Pinkie Pie and then inserting himself into Twilight and Cadance's hangout uninvited;3. Being called to Canterlot Castle to help deal with TirekAnd that's it. That's his only on-screen appearances prior to him deciding to turn on the ponies. But dialogue makes it plain that he's been otherwise hanging out with the M6, RE: tea parties with Fluttershy and being influenced by Rarity.So no, it's not understandable, as there had been no evidence of the other ponies mistreating him or being abrasive towards him.>A bit of a risk for a noble causeThere was nothing noble about it an the episode itself points out that it was fucking retarded. Even the Season 9 writers couldn't cover up how stupid and ill-conceived his plan was down to its very foundation.>which was the point he was redeemed atI feel like you're kind of neglecting something here. He only showed remorse because he was given at least several hours and possibly several days to express it. An active effort was made to make him better. Chrysalis, Cozy, and Tirek never received similar action. No one hung out with Cozy for hours or days trying to help her be better.>Nothing prevented them from giving themselves up for reformation once they were freed by DiscordNothing prevented Discord from deciding not to screw with Equestria after being released from stone. Twice.You see why any argument against the Trio is such a nonstarter yet as long as Discord is running around free?>Why are they treated as different things in the first place then?They *aren't*. Luna constantly refers to Nightmare Moon's crimes as her own. She talks about the terrible things SHE did, not the terrible things Nightmare Moon did. The idea of a split or division between the two is a pure fan invention.>Transformation implies change.Is Twilight a different person when she's a breezie or a human? Is Spike a different person after growing wings?>You conveniently left out that he looks away as Tirek is draining them.Fair enough: he still DID it, and was still more than willing to keep working with Tirek.>To show that there are things worse than chaos?He isn't merely Chaos, Anon. He's DISCORD. His name means pain, strife, confusion, conflict, and war. He LIKES chaos, but "The Return of Harmony" shows plainly that he's willing to micro-manage and meticulously plan out his schemes when it suits his purposes. He isn't just some mischievous scamp, he's literally comprised of everything that is antithetical to Harmony, and yet he's reformed. The reformation of such a character is narratively pointless. unless it's to make it plain that anyone can be reformed if given the chance.
>>41803174>Tyrannical oppression like that of TirekAgain, in practice, Tirek:1) Drains ponies of magic, but then leaves them alone2) Does unto the princesses as was done unto him, rather than torturing or killing them in any way3) Keeps both the letter and the spirit of his bargain with Twilight4) Indulges in his full power while miles away from civilizationIf we look at later episodes we can also add in Tirek doing stuff like:1) Dumping some snow on Rusty Bucket but otherwise leaving him alone;2) Nearly reforming without heroic help, a feat shared by only two other villains in the show;3) Catching and looking concerned at a baffled bird blown around by fans but then allowing it to fly away unharmedThe point of this line of discussion was that Tirek isn't, at worst, *as* evil as Discord in his debut episode and in later appearances. He is pragmatic, driven, ruthless, focused, but he isn't actually cruel or sadistic; he isn't interested in doing something evil just because he can. He honors bargains with people that he thinks he can trust. He is not shown to be "more evil" than Discord in his debut episode, in spite of your poorly conceived claim.>Innocent pranks.His innocent pranks, multiple times, reduce ponies and others to terror or tears. This isn't "innocent". He's a literal sociopath. Discord clearly demonstrates that he doesn't really consider the people around him to actually be "people", just things that he interacts with and either enjoys or doesn't enjoy doing so. Until "To Where and back Again", he always has to be pushed to recognize that other people have feelings of their own, and while admittedly he's better after TWABA, following "The Break-up Break Down" he's once again back to his normal inconsiderate self.>Discord supported him in S4 with no strings attachedTo further his own evil goals, Anon, and Tirek only turned on Discord AFTER Discord revealed that he'd been keeping vital information from him, i.e., after Discord had plainly demonstrated that he couldn't be trusted.We never see someone actually working to try and help Tirek be a better person, and you know it.>But they didn't reform, did they?Tell you what, name one major villain in MLP who reformed WITHOUT the heroes first performing some major heroic act or extending a hoof in trust. For the purposes of this discussion "major villain" means: - Luna - Discord - Chrysalis - Tirek - Starlight Glimmer - Stygian - Tempest Shadow - The Storm King - Cozy GlowThe season opener/closers, in other words.
>>41803053>He's one of only three villains in MLP who nearly reformed without help from the heroesFriendship and morality are not the same concepts. The leaders of the axis powers becoming friends wouldn't have stopped the war. One of the first school shootings was done by friends. The trio becoming friends wouldn't have suddenly stopped their evil ways.
>>41803308>Friendship and morality are not the same concepts.They literally are in MLP, as the show does not present us with a single character capable of friendship who isn't also capable of being a good person. The closest you'll get is Flim and Flam, except that even they are present in the finale on the side of the heroes. Even over in Equestria Girls you have the Dazzlings eventually being revealed to have become, if not heroic, then at least nonviolent. The entire central thesis of the show is that friendship is Good and that people who are capable of friendship are capable of being good. Now yes, the Trio reject friendship in "Frenemies", but:1) They are still the only villains to have ever nearly done so without any heroic help; and 2) Did so while under the aegis of a sociopathic draconequus who is in the active process of encouraging their worst instincts and desires, while also occasionally verbally and physically abusing them.Luna didn't show any signs of becoming a better pony without a major heroic gesture thrown her way first, but Chrysalis did. Discord didn't show any signs of becoming a better person without (several) major heroic gestures being thrown his way, but Tirek did. Starlight Glimmer didn't show any signs of becoming a better pony without multiple heroic gestures thrown her way, but Cozy did.If the intention of the writers was to show that some friendships isn't innately redemptive, then they failed catastrophically by having the Trio reject friendship out of terror at its implications atop Mt. Everhoof. They should have instead had them embrace it while otherwise still choosing to be evil. Instead, by showing them being genuinely warmed by friendship but then rejecting it out of terror, the writers only succeeded in showing us that the main obstacle between the Trio and becoming better people is that their main experience with friendship is from being on the business end of a rainbow laser made out of the stuff. They've experienced its positive aspects so rarely that they react to it like an abused dog recoiling from a raised hand. And yet in spite of that, the fact that they DID feel it puts them ahead of Luna, of Discord, of Starlight Glimmer and Stygian and Tempest Shadow.Now imagine someone actually trying to help them the way the ponies once tried to help Discord. Giving them wide latitude to act, with threat of punishment if they step too far out of line but otherwise being given the freedom to actually experience the positive side of friendship.But no. Instead they get a sociopathic draconequus encouraging their worst impulses as part of his plan to use them as disposable tools rather than treat them as people deserving of a basic level of dignity and compassion.
>>41803436>They literally are in MLPNo, it isn't.The trio never wanted friends, their motivations are purely for power. Trying to compare them to anyone else is utterly nonsensical other than Sombra and maybe Discord but Discord has that lulzrandom chaos plot armor.
>>41803436Truth.
>>41803436>the Trio reject friendship out of terror at its implicationsYour belief that they'll drop all their plans is plain delusional. Do you think friendship will brainwash them? Friendship doesn't solve any of their problems. Not even the elements of harmony could fix them like it did for Luna.
>>41803574Friendship would solve Cozy's problem... in the sense of gaining power, she never valued any of the friendships she made in school, they were a means to an end, merely tools for her to use. Which means Cozy was also manipulating Tirek and Chrysalis in frenemies. Cozy is the least redeemable out of the trio precisely because of that.
>>41803436>If the intention of the writers was to show that some friendships isn't innately redemptiveThat's a strange way to phrase it, I think that might just be a (You) problem. Why does the show need to prove something that is natural to reality? It is assumed by default.
>>41803746Cozy's existence destroys that backward logic anyway. She had lots of friends in school, it didn't magically redeem her or else the s8 finale would never happen. It is the most unambiguous example of the separation of friendship and morality.
Celestia is based as fuck for judging that little manipulative sycophant as an adult, along with Bughag and Mr. Roidrage. May she never wake, may she never see the sun again. Good riddance to that basketcase of a genetic mistake, she doesn't deserve to exist in Equestria. The only mistakes made were not smashing those statues into dust.>>41789734And then there's you. I'm uncertain If I should pity you for being so easily manipulated by this pathetic upstart, or to despise you for going along with it willingly. Mr.Hansen would like a chat with you regardless, faggot.
>>41803524>The trio never wanted friendsThis is demonstrably false with Cozy Glow, who continuously speaks about a desire for friends. She simply misunderstands what friendship is about.As for Tirek and Chrysalis, again, the two of them were ready to embrace friendship until terror at the thought of it changing them caused them to reject it, but that terror is clearly born from the fact that their primary experience with friendship is as something that TAKES from them without giving anything in return. Again, their main experience with friendship is by being on the business end of a laser made out of it.>>41803574>Your belief that they'll drop all their plans is plain delusionalSo was the belief that Discord would change his ways. He immediately mocked the idea, backslid immediately when the Plundervines presented him with an opportunity to do so, demonstrated a sociopathic apathy for the feelings of others with Twilight and Cadance, and then embraced evil again with little effort on Tirek's part when he came around.>Do you think friendship will brainwash them?I think they deserve no less a chance to try and become better people than was given - multiple times - to a guy who's name literally translates to "pain, strife, war, conflict, misery, confusion, and disharmony", and who has threatened Equestria more often *since* his supposed reformation than he did *before* it.>>41803746>Why does the show need to prove something that is natural to reality?Because it's demonstrably not natural to the MLP world.
>>41803595>Cozy is the least redeemable out of the trio precisely because of that.Given that no one has ever tried, it is impossible to know that for sure. Ditto Tirek. Chrysalis HAS had a hoof offered to her in friendship, once, and she rejected it, but she visibly struggled with the decision, which was more than what Starlight Glimmer herself displayed in "The Cutie Map". She was then allowed to leave by all the creatures present, an entourage which included the Elements of Harmony, Celestia, Luna, Cadance, Shining Armor, Starlight Glimmer, and Discord, not to mention a whole hive of reformed changelings. If the beings present had wanted to stop Chrysalis, they very easily could have. The ending of TWABA only makes sense if the beings present assumed that Chrysalis was capable of changing her ways.Then, after that, you have to remember that the ponies haven't seen the show. They don't know what we know about it, the parts that they weren't there for. From their perspective, after fleeing, Chrysalis proceeded to do absolutely nothing to harm anyone until Discord nabbed her from where she was sitting alone in the woods and pushed her to ally with the Trio to help him take down Twilight and take over Equestria. Yeah, she didn't come in from the cold, but she didn't hurt anyone or attempt to take over the world, either.(just to re-emphasize: the ponies expressly don't know about "The Mean 6")From the pony perspective, Discord took a lonely old woman who was capable of being better but who's pride wasn't allowing her to reform, but who was also doing nothing to harm anyone, and then shoved her in a cave and fed all her worst impulses while also giving her the means to act upon them.From the pony perspective, Discord orchestrated and ensured Chrysalis' damnation.
>>41803895>Mr.HansenI hope the irony isn't lost on you that Chris Hansen would consider someone advocating for the death of a child to be no less reprehensible than someone willing to rape a child.
>>41803765>She had lots of friends in schoolYes, but a twisted view of what friendship represented - which Twilight openly admits is her fault but then takes no steps to remedy, she simply allows Cozy to be shoved into Hell.
>>41804129>Cozy Glow, who continuously speaks about a desire for friends.She was friends with everyone in school and that didn't stop her from trying to ruin Equestria. The "misunderstanding" excuse doesn't work because in order for her to have made all those friends she had to have known how to make and nourish those friendships. She well understood friendship.>but that terror is clearly born from the fact that their primary experience with friendship is as something that TAKES from them without giving anything in return.If that was the case they would WANT to embrace friendship to use that power against their enemies.>So was the belief that Discord would change his ways.You can't keep using Discord as an excuse because he's a god and Celestia only wanted to use his power, he is a unique case. Neither does Discord changing automatically mean that anyone can change, that is a faulty reasoning because everyone is different.>Because it's demonstrably not natural to the MLP world.Flim and Flam are friends with each other yet they still scam others on the regular. And again, Cozy.
>>41804150>Given that no one has ever triedWe know from context given throughout the show that they have no empathy or remorse, we don't need to see Twilight waste her time extending her hoof saying "come on guys just accept friendship" just for the trio to slap it away. It is directly implied by the trio not surrendering at the end. They even declare they will always return and never stop fighting against Equestria. It can't be any more clear than that.>From the pony perspectiveFrom their perspective Chrysalis is a pure evil maniac who tried taking over Equestria three times.>Chrysalis HAS had a hoof offered to her in friendship, once, and she rejected it, but she visibly struggled with the decision, which was more than what Starlight Glimmer herself displayed in "The Cutie Map".Did you forget about s2? That's not comparable because Chrysalis' ideology was thoroughly disproven while Starlight's ideology wasn't disproven until the finale. Chrysalis escaped because she was still at full power, hard to catch, and everyone was still busy recovering from their capture. No one was under any illusion that she was going to learn her lesson.
>>41804266>She well understood friendship.In Twilight Sparkle's own words, she didn't, and it was Twilight's fault.>they would WANT to embrace friendshipNo, because from the perspective of Chrysalis and Tirek friendship is something that brainwashes people you previously could depend upon against you - Chrysalis' changelings and Tirek's brother. They don't want to be brainwashed. They directly state this.>You can't keep using Discord as an excuseI think you'll find that I absolutely can.>he is a unique caseNo, because Starlight Glimmer is also given wide latitude and freedom to act while trying to become a better person, which she likewise only accepts after a large heroic gesture and repeated appeals to change from Twilight.You never answered my question, Anon. Name a villain in MLP who reformed WITHOUT receiving a heroic gesture and/or appeal first. You can't, because none of them did.Now name a villain who expressed any kind of regret or doubt in their villainy without a heroic gesture directed their way first. You can name three: Tirek, Cozy Glow, and Chrysalis. No other villain who expresses doubt or regret does so unprompted.>that is a faulty reasoning because everyone is different.It's not about character differences, it's about narrative role. Discord is introduced with Satanic imagery and his first two episodes go out of their way to show that where the ponies are kind, generous, optimistic, loyal, honest, and value friendship, he is cruel, selfish, sadistic, untrustworthy, manipulative, and cares nothing for others except as toys to play with. He is literally presented as the thematic opposite of everything the show stands for.This isn't about Discord as a person, but as a character. He represents the antithesis of harmony. The only narrative purpose that can be served by having him turn over a new leaf and try to become better is to make it plain that ANYONE can. From a storytelling perspective, that's the only reason to do it and the only conclusion that can be drawn from it. If the writers didn't intend that...congrats, they're bad writers.>Flim and Flam are friends with each other yet they still scam others on the regularAnd yet they ALSO show up in The Ending of the End in order to defend Equestira, so that's another nonstarter of an argument.
>>41804551>In Twilight Sparkle's own words, she didn't, and it was Twilight's fault.Which is contradicted by Cozy befriending the whole school. Twilight naturally feels responsible even if it isn't her fault. It's not the principal's fault if a school shooter shoots up their school.
>>41804369>We know from context given throughout the show that they have no empathy or remorseWe know just the opposite. Tirek is very clearly wounded by Scorpan's betrayal, still thinks highly of his Gram-Gram, and has immense daddy issues over Vorak (plus there's that bird he seemed genuinely concerned about in "The Summer Sun Set-Back"). Chrysalis was introduced to us defining her responsibility towards others ("As Queen of the Changelings, it is up to me to find food for my subjects") and is plainly shown to struggle with rejecting Starlight's offer of friendship. Finally, Cozy Glow is shown to be actually worried when her actions cause the Crusaders to get chewed out by Twilight, in a scene where no one else but the audience can observe her - i.e., there was no one around to lie to or fool, those are her real emotions that we were witnessing.>It is directly implied by the trio not surrendering at the endOnly Chrysalis doesn't surrender. Cozy and Tirek aren't given a chance to do so. Further, if they were really so irredeemable then why didn't the Mother of All Rainbow Lasers petrify them (as it has done to Discord), banish them to the moon (Luna) or limbo (Pony of Shadows) or Tartarus (Tirek in S4), flay their skin from their bones and vaporize them (Sombra), or otherwise deal with them itself? Instead it merely depowered them, which it has only been seen to do to one other being - Luna, after she was ready to accept friendship if only someone would reach out to her.>They even declare they will always return"They" don't declare anything. Chrysalis does, but we're talking about the same bug who had expressed terror at the idea of friendship because she's only ever seen it TAKE things from her. She is very clearly putting up a brave face to mask how terrified she is.>Chrysalis is a pure evil maniacThen why didn't they stop her from leaving in To Where and Back Again?>and everyone was still busy recovering from their captureI don't buy that for a second since nothing in the scene implies this, plus the fact that Discord was there. Even if this was the case, Discord plainly had the ability to track her down and seize her whenever he wanted, and yet he never did, nor did anyone else ever think to try and track Chrysalis down. She was very plainly viewed as capable of reforming; it's the only way the ending of TWABA and letting her go makes any kind of sense, unless we want to broach the possibility that literally everyone in that scene is just plain stupid.
>>41804578>It's not the principal's fault if a school shooter shoots up their school.Doesn't matter, Twilight felt responsible - but then did nothing to actually TAKE responsibility. Because the writers of seasons 8 and 9 were bad writers who were writing Twilight Sparkle as a bad pony at that point without having the skill to realize it.
>>41804588It does matter and she took responsibility by jailing Cozy to stop her from manipulating more ponies. The student six defends Twilight, everyone in school who wasn't a psychopath didn't turn out like Cozy which means the problem is Cozy not the school.
>>41804551>And yet they ALSO show up in The Ending of the End in order to defend Equestira, so that's another nonstarter of an argument.Who will they scam if their nation gets destroyed? Even thieves can have patriotism.
>>41804598>It does matter and she took responsibility by jailing Cozy to stop her from manipulating more poniesYes, in that jail where the warden is known to wander off and leave the door open, and no one ever checks on the inmates to such a degree that if they escape, are broken out, or are receiving or sending out letters to or from an outside conspirator, no one notices.Tell me more about this "responsibility" that Twilight took.
>>41804602>Who will they scam if their nation gets destroyed?So you're saying that despite being evil, if they are presented with something they actually value which they will lose if they continue to be evil, they are willing to act against their base nature and instead help others?
>>41804606By stopping her from manipulating more ponies.
>>41804612Except she didn't. Cozy was back to doing exactly that in a matter of months, because Twilight didn't take responsibility. She handed responsibility over to the Princesses, who have a noted history at this point at being incompetent when it comes to handling threats to Equestria since their solutions are always either "banish for 1,000 years and make it someone else's problem" or "stick it in Tartarus and forget about it totally, and if anything happens it's someone else's problem".
>>41804615The ineffectiveness of their methods are irrelevant.
>>41804580>Only Chrysalis doesn't surrender. Cozy and Tirek aren't given a chance to do so.They all had a chance by showing remorse at that moment. They were at the lowest point of their lives at the mercy of their victims. That was when they should have realized all their ambitions for power were wrong and beg for forgiveness. But they didn't and continued being aggressive.>if they were really so irredeemable then why didn't the Mother of All Rainbow LasersThere's no apparent reason or explanation for all the different things it does, it is arbitrary. It banished Luna to the moon cause that sounded like an epic idea to the writers, that's all.
>>41804621No, it’s not. You’re not “taking responsibility” if your solution to a problem is to do something you know for a fact is likely to fail, particularly not when other options are open to you.Twilight at this point knows that banishing something has a 0% success rate in solving the problem permanently. She also knows that Cozy is an ordinary child in terms of actual abilities. She doesn’t have supernatural manipulation powers; her ability to get others to do what she wants depends totally on those people being willing to agree with her of their own volition. This is made plain in “Frenemies” when Rusty Bucket refuses to help Cozy climb Mt. Everhoof no matter what she tries, and even though Cozy has the advantage of Rusty not knowing who she is and Rusty genuinely wanting to be friendly otherwise. Cozy’s plan depended on no one realizing that she even *had* a plan; bereft of that, she’s powerless and no more dangerous than any other pegasus foal. There was absolutely no reason why Cozy couldn’t have been kept in Ponyville under proper supervision under a program designed to try and help her, instead of abandoned in Tartarus, a jail known to be ineffective at this point since it’s failed twice in as many in-universe years (or thereabouts). Maybe the program works and maybe it doesn’t, but sending Cozy to Tartarus was by a wide margin the worse option based on all available facts.
>>41804640> But they didn't and continued being aggressive.*Chrysalis* continued to be aggressive, like a wounded animal terrified for its life. Cozy and Tirek cowered, and before getting a chance to say anything we’re flattened by a giant cake, excoriated by Celestia, and then turned to stone.
>>41804646They weren't terrified for their lives otherwise they would have surrendered or shown remorse.
>>41804641Rusty can't do the impossible just because Cozy commands him to. There's no way to help Cozy. The nature of her manipulation means it's impossible to tell if she's being reformed or faking it.This is all a red herring anyway because the s6, blessed by the elements, defended Twilight's teachings and no one but Cozy turned evil.
>>41804551>No, because from the perspective of Chrysalis and Tirek friendship is something that brainwashes people you previously could depend upon against you - Chrysalis' changelings and Tirek's brother. They don't want to be brainwashed. They directly state this.Chryssy only likens it to a "disease", they're being metaphorical. Think of it this way, they're just too prideful to admit they've become friends. Friendship and morality isn't the same. They learned that working together feels good, not that taking over Equestria is bad. They even continue working together as friends after that even if they don't admit it.
>>41804611What are you implying, they're going to right back to scamming after that. A temporary truce doesn't change that they're jews.
>>41804551>Name a villain in MLP who reformed WITHOUT receiving a heroic gesture and/or appeal first.Something triggered that "gesture/appeal" first. Starlight and Tempest revealed their motivations unprompted. Stygian had the cutie map show he had a friendship problem, technically for Starlight too. Luna got her ass kicked and acted remorseful after that.You have to show you're redeemable first, it's not up to the heroes to do that for you. No one is owed redemption and you have to want to reform to reform.>Tirek, Cozy Glow, and Chrysalis. No other villain who expresses doubt or regret does so unprompted.Do they actually though? They found out working together feels good, not that they doubt or regret anything they've done.
>>41804580>We know just the opposite.I suppose even a school shooter shows empathy and remorse because he felt bad when women rejected him. If only those feelings were directed to any of their victims then you'd have a point.>Cozy Glow is shown to be actually worriedShe was still in public. The camera was zoomed way in so for all we know the hall was filled with students. That would also make it a little too obvious that she's evil in her debut episode if she was snickering at them. Cozy also may not have intended for the CMCs to get in trouble, her ultimate goal is to earn everyone's trust, not cause chaos. So Cozy being worried is a flimsy argument.
>>41804580>it's the only way the ending of TWABA and letting her go makes any kind of sense>why didn't Discord just solve every problem that ever happened in the showThat's an issue with writing in a god that can do anything into the protag cast. Also why Celestia had to be "nerfed" or lazily hand everything to Twilight. You may not like, but none of them were prepared to chase a powerful being like her. It's not like when Cozy was stopped she was surrounded on all sides.>She was very plainly viewed as capable of reformingThen I have a bridge to sell you. At best they hoped Chrysalis would no longer attempt to do more harm, which is a reasonable assumption since she just lost her entire army, she was basically defanged.
>>41804648They weren’t given a chance to. And no previous villain who DID reform has done so without being given a chance to via a direct appeal or heroic act.>>41804662> There's no way to help Cozy.Yeah, which is my point. Cozy’s manipulation skills aren’t supernatural, and they depend utterly on her target actually being willing to help her. After Season 8, she would have been powerless to manipulate anyone in Ponyville who knew her.> blessed by the elementsIf we’re taking that tack then the Elements have banished creatures to Tartarus before. If the Elements wanted Cozy in Tartarus then she’d be in Tartarus.>>41804702> they're just too prideful to admit they've become friendsOh, I agree with this,> Friendship and morality isn't the same.But I don’t agree with this in the context of MLP, because this is literally the opposite of what we were shown across nine seasons and multiple spin-offs and specials.>>41804720I’m implying that the thing that’s getting them to act in Equestria’s defense is the exact same thing that got Discord started on the road to redemption. He was given relatively wide latitude to do what he wanted, but with a threat of consequences if he went too far out of line, and then also was given something he came to value (Fluttershy being nice to him) which he would then lose if he reverted to his evil ways. And Starlight Glimmer was given similar leeway, as was Sunset over in EqG.If we accept Discord and Stsrlight as basically reformed and then acknowledge Flim and Flam as hardly a world-ending threats and see that they’re even willing to risk their lives for others now, then the Keep Calm method of dealing with problems has a 100% success rate, which is a lot better than the 0% of petrification.>>41804793No, Sterlight didn’t. You’re thinking of the Seasok 5 finale finale, but Starlight revealed nothing but selfish hypocrisy in “The Cutie Map”, yet Twilight still tried to appeal to her.> Tempest revealed their motivations unprompted. You are outright lying here as Twilight directly asks for Tempest’s motivation (“Why are you doing this? You're a pony! Just like me.”)Gettin’ real sick of being the only person who’s seen this movie.> Stygian had the cutie map show he had a friendship problemAnd Twilight was nevertheless willing to vaporize him, until practically the last second. You’d think she’d have learned some kind of lesson from that, but apparently Twilight is actually stupid.> You have to show you're redeemable firstBy your own admission, Luna didn’t. Nor did Discord. Nor did Tempest or Stsrlight - your memory is faulty. Nor did Stygian until Twilight finally listened to Starlight’s appeals. You are just flat wrong about this, Anon.
>>41804841> I suppose even a school shooterBy the way; Cozy’s known body count is 0, and while an alicorn we even see her go out of her way to avoid hurting ponies she doesn’t have to (dumping some guards safely outside, for example). By contrast Tempest Shadow has conquered and enslaved multiple kingdoms and while she has no on-screen body count the nature of what she was doing plus her observed willingness to put people in mortal danger if it’s suits her purposes means she pretty much MUST have a body count under her hooves.If Cozy’s a school shooter, what’s Tempest? > The camera was zoomed way in so for all we know the hall was filled with students.No, that doesn’t track. That would explain a neutral reaction, it wouldn’t explain looking actually worried and concerned that she’d messed up > So Cozy being worried is a flimsy argument.Even if it is, she is still nevertheless an ordinary filly in terms of actual abilities, and so sending her to Tartarus is both grossly out of proportion to her actual threat level, as well as gross incompetence due to the prison having been proven as ineffective at holding or containing threats. Equestria would actually have been softer if Cozy had just been made to repeat the school year and live in Ponyville, this time with everyone aware of her true nature.Well, aside from the fact that Discord would probably still kidnap her to use as a disposable minion. But maybe someone would have actually *noticed* this time ‘round.>>41804900> That's an issue with writing in a god that can do anything into the protag cast.I don’t disagree, but they DID do that. So now they have to deal with the consequences. You can’t go “oh, well that’s just bad writing” here but then not allow for that fact later on in the series with how the Trio were handled.> a powerful being like her.Chrysalis is never established as being powerful in her own right. Her previous ability to beat Celestia in a beam-struggle is something she herself directly attributes to her gorging on Shining Armor’s love for Cadance, not her personal power, and there’s no indication that she’s similarly powerful at the end of TWABA. Further, Discord is there and you cannot just ignore that fact with “bad writing” unless you’re willing to do so for the finale as well.Finally, Starlight Glimmer is there, who has spent no time in pods and we have no reason to think isn’t currently at the top of her game, “the top” being at a level where she can dual alicorn-Twilight to a draw, which at least if we go by the comics should put her *over* Chrysalis’ power level.Face it, you’re clutching at straws here. The entire scene is framed to make it clear that everyone present thinks Chrysalis just needs a chance to calm down, and if we get meta than Meghan McCarthy - the show runner at the time - even had a policy of “no one’s ever really bad, just broken”.
>>41804900> she was basically defanged.No, she wasn’t. She’s still a shapeshifting emotion vampire who needs to feed on others to survive. Even if no longer a national threat she was still a threat to individuals, so unless you’re suggesting that no one present considered that - including the entire hive of changelings who’d literally been living that same life up until moments ago - then this excuse doesn’t hold water either.
>>41804702> They learned that working together feels good, not that taking over Equestria is bad.Like how Discord learned that hanging out with Fluttershy feels good, not that manipulating and harming others for his own ends is bad? A lesson he literally never takes to heart all the way to the finale?
>>41805515>no one’s ever really bad, just brokenBy the way, since I’m sure you’ll want proof of this…https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mcTKBbdfq84Posted on Hasbro’s official YouTube channel, and “no one’s bad, just broken” is even said while showing the scene of Starlight reaching out to Chrysalis. You CANNOT deny, in the face of this actual video evidence, that the intent of the scene was to suggest they Chrysalis was capable of reformation. You would at this point be denying objective reality.Oh God you’re about to deny objective reality, aren’t you?
>>41803174>no evidence of the other ponies mistreating him or being abrasiveAside from Fluttershy, everyone always acts wary or passive aggressive towards him. It's in every dialogue he has with M6. >There was nothing noble about itA gift for Twilight to make her a more confident ruler.>he was given at least several hoursBecause he didn't reject their efforts outright and was open to negotiations.>No one hung out with Cozy for hours or days trying to help her be better.Except for the months she spent in Friendship School being taught all about friendship. >Nothing prevented Discord from deciding not to screw with EquestriaAnd he suffered and had to amend for that both times. >Is Twilight a different person when she's a breezie or a humanIf they start acting differently, yes, there's a good basis to assume the transformation makes them different. Jekyll and Hide.>he still DID it, and was still more than willing to keep working with Tirek.See, you put so much attention Tirek's moment of quasi-sympathy, yet you cared so little for Discord's moment of sympathy you actually forgot it existed. You're pretty clearly emotionally biased to interpret anything Tirek does favorably and to nitpick anything Discord does.>unless it's to make it plain that anyone can be reformed if given the chance.Or to suggest that the black-and-white dichotomy of Harmony vs Chaos presented in the early series was flawed and nuance is allowed to exist, i.e. a little disarray can be fun and spice life up.
>>41803209>all this wall of glazing TirekTirek is worse than Discord because he's a ruthless warmonger and a backstabber who indulges in direct violence and never shows any capacity for kindness. Your arguments basically boil down to the fact that Tirek didn't do worse things that he could have potentially done. Okay. Then Discord is a hero for managing to hold himself from turning Equestria into a nightmarish landscape of chaos every single day. Can you imagine how much willpower that must take for him not to fully give into his nature? Where are his accolades, huh? >Discord clearly demonstrates that he doesn't really consider the people around him to actually be "people", just things that he interacts with and either enjoysHis very motivation in S9 contradicts that. He wants to help Twilight because he thinks that would be a good thing and a nice gift for her. Not to mention his every interaction with Fluttershy.>We never see someone actually working to try and help Tirek be a better personDiscord helped Tirek selflessly and Tirek backstabbed him. The only reason Tirek even knows Discord was hiding something is because Discord told him that. He was actually trying to be Tirek's friend and Tirek rejected it. Also, alleging that the only reason Tirek backstabbed Discord is because Discord hid something is conjecture. We're never explicitly told that, and most people would tell you Tirek was always planning to manipulate and backstab him based on how sinisterly he's framed in their initial exchange. You keep doing this, assigning headcanon pseudo-human motives to Tirek while dismissing everything Discord does as "sociopathic" and rejecting any notion of his motives being sympathetic, even when plainly shown>Tell you what, name one major villain in MLP who reformed WITHOUT the heroes first performing some major heroic actWhy? The whole point is that villains get redeemed based on how much capacity for change they show in how open they are to negotiations.
>>41806121>Aside from Fluttershy, everyone always acts wary or passive aggressive towards him. It's in every dialogue he has with M6.Not in What About Discord
>>41806314Yes, that's one weird exception where everyone is really chummy with Discord. While I think it's an interesting episode from how Discord plays on Twilight's psyche and it gets too much hate, the writer was notoriously the guy Larson mentioned as being one of the writers who didn't watch the show, so that would explain why their dynamics are so weirdly different.
>>41806321Imagine not watching the show AMIRITE
>>41789734While I agree with you, you do need to give it a rest. Slow down a tad or you'll just get more to like this ending to spite you.
>>41806314“What About Discord” is *after* all the nonsense with Tirek. In Season 4 Discord has just three appearances: “Princess Twilight Sparkle”, “Three’s a Crowd”, and “Twilight’s Kingdom”. In those three episodes, the ponies are standoffish with him in the first but he really *is* responsible for what’s going on so it’s justified (not to mention the circumstances of the Plundervines, it being at most just a few weeks since KCaFO, and his attitude in the situation); in “There’s a Crowd” Pinkie tries to be genuinely friendly with him but he sends her away with a balloon and otherwise inserts himself like an asshole into Twilight and Cadance’s get-together; and then after that, he teams up with Tirek.So no. As of Season 4, the ponies hadn’t had any chance to be abrasive or standoffish towards him, with the exception of S4’s opener, which is directly a result of the circumstances. The only “normal” interaction between the ponies and Discord is in “Three’s a Crowd”, where he deliberately sends away Pinkie when she tries to be genuinely friendly.
>>41806167> and a backstabberTirek has backstabbed exactly one character, Discord, and only after he had already demonstrated himself to be untrustworthy. Throughout every other one of his appearances Tirek is continuously shown to be trustworthy and honest as long as he’s dealing with someone he feels he can trust to be the same. That’s a *fact* of his character, not headcanon.
>>41806589...and that's why he is willing to up with Cozy Glow, who he knows is very trustworthy and honest of course
>>41789734Did the writers try to be subversive? Either way, they did a terrible job.
>>41806121> Because he didn't reject their efforts outright and was open to negotiations.Efforts that were not extended to Chrysalis, Tirek, or Cozy. You’re setting up a nonsense argument, you realize that, right? You’re screwing up the order of events. Unearned trust was extended on the part of the ponies first, THEN Discord was given a chance to accept or reject it, not vice-versa> Except for the months she spent in Friendship School being taught all about friendship. So she’s not perfect - so what? We’ve seen actual element bearers try and conquer Equestria over temper tantrums.
>>41806595She’s never betrayed him or done anything to suggest that he can’t trust her, has she?
>>41789734Do you want to know what my favorite part of the show is? You'll probably be surprised, but it's the end of the Season 9 two-part finale.It's just so perfectly awful, how can you not love it?You have Twilight Sparkle, the Princess of Friendship, about to become the Princess of all Equestria. Her last enemies are in front of her, defeated and helpless. She's also surrounded by her friends, like 90% of whom were also once her enemies before she helped them.This is her moment. This is when everything she's learned comes into play, when she reaches out to her enemies and offers them kindness, generosity, all of that. It's the moment for her biggest, best friendship speech in the entire series. It's the moment when she finally comes into her own, truly claims the title of Princess, and shows everyone why she deserves to be the ruler of Equestria and how she will rule moving forward.Then Celestia pushes her aside.And because the REAL Princess is talking, Twilight does nothing. She sits there like an inanimate .jpeg while Celestia, Luna and Discord murder three people, including a child—a child who was once Twilight's student. And Twilight has zero reaction to all of this.Finally, Celestia is done spitting on everything Twilight believes in. She then speaks to Twilight, thus giving her permission to speak. And, naturally, Twilight replies with her catchphrase:>"Yes, Princess Celestia."
>>41806624I mean, it's incredible, right? I've never seen a better bit of character assassination. They managed to ruin all of these characters, turn them into monsters, in the space of about fifteen seconds.Twilight is the most impressive thing in all of this. In all the books and comics I've read, in all the movies and shows I've watched, in all the video games I've played, I think this is the first time I've ever seen a protagonist who has a character arc that arcs so much it becomes a full circle and they end up right back where they started.The show starts with Celestia ordering Twilight to go from Canterlot to Ponyville to do her job for her, and it ends with Celestia ordering Twilight to go from Ponyville to Canterlot to do her job for her. It's like poetry, in that most poetry sucks.And here's the real cherry on top of this... well, I'll just say 'sundae' without adding any colorful metaphors.The show is called Friendship is Magic. At the very end, the villains say "You can't stop us with friendship!" And then the 'good' guys go "Yeah, you're right," and just murder them in cold blood.It's even better when you consider that these three villains were left completely unharmed by the big friendship beam. The Magic of Friendship explicitly didn't want this to happen, it gave Twilight and everyone a chance to help them. But the real villains felt like getting some revenge, and took matters into their own hands.Again, I've never seen a piece of media that so thoroughly trashes it's own main concept.The entire show is pointless; friendship isn't Magic, it's just... magic. Just a tool, just another weapon you use to beat down your enemies, and then when it can't finish them off you have to do it yourself. What an amazing way to end the show, by making it all irrelevant.And that's why I love it. It's so completely disgusting, so irredeemable, such a parody of itself and everything it represents, that it gets elevated to greatness. I can't hate something like that.To quote Anchorman: "I'm not even mad, I'm impressed." To completely destroy your legacy like that takes dedication and effort, and an ability to despise your own work that's almost admirable. It's hard to watch the people who made the show just throw the entire thing out the window and into a dumpster, and not somehow respect the sheer gall that took, you know?
>>41806611I understand people if they think the ending was terrible, but I do not understand how they think it was subversive as it was never hinted upon that they would ever be redeemed (except if you autistically analyse everything) in the end. Them being turned to stone or punished was not surprising. For that matter, it would seem more subversive to me if they had chosen to redeem them at the last moment. King Sombra's death was also not surprising.
>>41806628I mean....It's almost like there was supposed to be a completely different story for S9, right?Like, they sat down and put all their effort into creating the absolute best story for the end of the show that they possibly could. And they made something amazing and wonderful, something that would have made everyone happy in some way, something that had events and concepts in it people had been speculating about and anticipating for pretty much the entire run of the show.And then when it was all done, someone else took that story and twisted it to create a story that was the exact opposite, and that's what we got instead.Haha, but that would be ridiculous, right? Ha ha ha.
>>41806621How about... clearly wanting the bell for herself during the finale all the time?
>>41806628>friendship isn't Magic, it's just... magic.Cinema line
>>41806633> Them being turned to stone or punished was not surprising.It was *immensely* surprising that in a show entitled “FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC”, in its very last episode, not a single person tried to to make friends.
>>41806638Not a betrayal. She was open and honest about it.
>>41806658Okay...? So Cozy didn't break Tirek's ultimate brocode when she offered herself as a guinea pig for the chaos magic and the first thing she then tried to do was to kill her "friends".
>>41806665She doesn’t try to kill them, she tries to put herself in charge, something that both of them would do in the same situation. They don’t hold it against her because she’s only doing what they think is normal - which they think is normal at least partially because no one’s ever tried to show them any other way.
>>41806656No, because there was zero setup for a redemption. You expect the hero to defeat the villain, and not that they befriend them just as they did in The Return of Harmony, The Crystal Empire, or Twilight's Kingdom... and kind of in The Cutie Map. For, The Cutie Re-Mark, you would first expect for Twilight to beat Starlight - this was the setup for the whole two-parter: Twilight finds a way back to the past and stops Starlight hindering the Sonic Rainboom by force and she wins. But that doesn't happen, she convinces Starlight to stop by her own accord and get over her petty revanchism. The Cutie Re-Mark was thus subversive. Shadow Play on the other was not subversive at all; it was hinted to the whole time that the Pony of Shadow will be redeemed at the end as Starlight fixated upon this fact. And it wasn't surprising that she was right. Shadow Play wasn't subversive. So those two two-parters show that redeeming a villain can both be subversive and not subversive. The Ending of the End would have been a subversive case if they decided to redeem them in the end. It was clear all along during that episode: The goal is to stop / defeat the Legion of Doom. This is what happened in the end. No character ever there implied or suggested anything different in contrast to Shadow Play.
>>41806692But do you think that Tirek would not have betrayed Discord if he had told Tirek about Princess Twilight before or would he still have?
>>41806167> Your arguments basically boil down to the fact that Tirek didn't do worse things that he could have potentially done.My argument is that it’s difficult to reconcile your fanfic version of Tirek with what is actually presented on-screen, which is someone who is driven, ruthless, and selfish but not sadistic. Not once does Tirek ever do something to hurt someone just because he can. He is never observed to delight in someone’s suffering the way Discord was.I’m not arguing that Tirek isn’t evil. I’m saying the original claim that Tirek was presented as “more evil” than Discord is bullshit because with RoH Discord we’re talking about someone who delights in taking the time to terrorize and corrupt people for his own enjoyment, who’s perfectly willing to mindrape and obliterate people’s personalities and replace them with ones he finds more amusing.I mean say what you will about Tirek, but if he wants to kill you he strikes me as someone who’ll just do it. No muss, no fuss, nothing drawn out, just bang, you’re dead. Discord is observed as someone who’ll instead warp your minds and thoughts and perceptions and turn you into a mockery of yourself, and he’ll then use that to torment the people you care about, and this isn’t headcanon because that’s *exactly what we saw him do* in “The Return of Harmony”.> Discord helped Tirek selflesslyIt wasn’t selfless at all you mong. Tirek’s entire pitch to Discord was that if they worked together Discord would get to be the sadistic lord of chaos again without fear of reprisals from the ponies. It has nothing to do with “selflessness” and everything to do with the idea of getting to go back to being his old selfish self.> Also, alleging that the only reason Tirek backstabbed Discord is because Discord hid something is conjecture. True, but look at the one other person he bargains with in the episode: Twilight. Upon making a deal for alicorn magic, Tirek keeps his end of the bargain and then afterwards does nothing to try and harm Twilight even though it was well within his power. If he’s so mindlessly evil as you claim, why didn’t he just immediately try to blast Twilight and her friends instead of turning around to enjoy his new power (in the middle of nowhere, where he’s not likely to hurt anyone)?> The whole point is that villains get redeemed based on how much capacity for change they showAnd again, you’re screwing up the order of events. The villains never show a capacity for change UNTIL they are given a chance to do so via heroic act of appeal or trust on behalf of the heroes. Discord did nothing to suggest he deserved a shot at redemption, UNTIL the ponies took the risk. Not Luna, nor Starlight, nor Stygian, nor Tempest. They all of them were unrepentant monsters until someone held out a hoof and tried to get through to them.
>>41806703> No, because there was zero setup for a redemption.See here’s the thing, I don’t even necessarily want a redemption. What I wanted was for, after the Mother of All Rainbow Lasers hits the three, for Twilight to recognize that they haven’t been banished or vaporized by the Elements. I wanted them to be protesting that they’re still gonna try and take over Equestria but also they’re bunched up and clearly trying to protect each other. I wanted Twilight to see that the three of them are clearly friends even if they deny it, and so are capable of redemption according to MLP’s own narrative.And then I wanted a big friendship speech while we get a montage of Chrysalis being turned over to the changelings, Tirek sent back to centaur lands and Scorpan, and Cozy going back to school. They’re guarded, they’re not just being allowed to run free, but they’re being given a CHANCE, even if they might be seen as balking at the chance. Chrysalis looking bored out of her mind in a changeling feelings forum, for example.And that’s it. THAT’S where they should have ended. Not redeemed, but being given the chance at redemption. The show should have ended on a note of hope that even these three can change, not with the practical execution of an old man, a lonely woman, and a literal child.
>>41806719Genuinely, no, I don’t think he would have. I think it would be out of character for what we see of Tirek throughout the rest of the show.
>>41806776Okay, but this has nothing to do with subversiveness lol
>>41806776>waaahhhh my fanfiction didn't become truejesus, kid. i bet you kicked and screamed when cadance showed up.
>>41806786I was never talking about subversiveness. That was a different Anon.>>41806791No, Cadance is best princess. Which is another reason I hate the finale as much as I do, I hate that Twilight says that if the M6 fail to deal with the Trio, then Cadance…will have to make sure that Flurry Heart can be ready to step up once she grows up. Completely passing over Cadance as a viable hero in her own right in favor of suggesting that it’d be best to wait a decade or more for the toddler to grow up.Cadance’s special talent especially should have made her an ideal pony to fight the windigoes.But that’s a minor gripe overall, especially next to the moral vacuum and ethical failure that is the handling of the Trio.
>>41806954>moral vacuum and ethical failurethat's an indication of your own sociopathy if you think the trio didn't deserve it.
>>41806971I think they deserved the same opportunity that was extended to Discord and Tempest even though those two had done nothing to deserve it.
>>41806977those two deserved getting stoned too. the stoning of them and the trio is morally and ethically correct.
>>41807006Rehabilitation is moral. Even if you disagree, it did happen in the show and because of that, the trio deserved the chance for it as well by virtue of fairness.
>>41807065>these war criminals got pardons so everyone else should toonot an ethical argument.
>>41807084Fairness is ethical.
>>41807104fairness as a general concept is ethical yes, but applying fairness to this situation is unethical.
>>41807155No, it isn’t, because the Trio at no point commit crimes above and beyond what those who have had forgiveness extended to them have committed. Especially as long as both Discord and Tempest are running around - Tempest is the one who destroyed Mt. Aris, for example, according to the official comic, meaning that her acts of destruction are at least on-par with the Trio destroying a big chunk of Canterlot Castle.
>>41807313doesn't matter if you don't think they aren't worse than discord. it is not a competition.
>>41807350The same crimes should warrant the same responses. If Discord is worth taking an immense risk to attempt to reform, then the Trio are. If Tempest is worth risking all of Equestria’s safety for, the the Trio are. You can’t just pick and choose when to apply moral and ethical standards. They don’t mean anything if you do that.
>>41807155Not really, considering that they never actually killed anyone.
>>41807395In fact Cozy went out of her way to avoid killing ponies.
>>41807395neither did anyone else
>>41806621She suckered him into staying in Tartarus with the ponies he hates at the end of S8. Like, they make an explicit point of having Tirek realize he does not benefit from this arrangement as much as he'd thought, but later he still teams up with her.
>>41807421> Like, they make an explicit point of having Tirek realize he does not benefit from this arrangement as much as he'd thoughtAnd Tirek is someone who is demonstrably aware of his own limitations and foibles (RE: instantly realizing he couldn’t climb Mt. Everhoof on his own). He would probably blame himself for that oversight, not Cozy.
>>41807313>who destroyed Mt. Aris, for example, according to the official comicI thought you said comics weren't canon, which is why Nightmare Moon is allegedly the same as Luna despite the comics clearly showing the opposite?
>>41807391>The same crimes should warrant the same responsesand they got stoned. what happens after is a separate matter. you're jealous one of them was set free, you are driven by emotion not morality.
>>41807428So why does Discord not get the same generosity?
>>41807430Nothing from the comics or G5 or PL should be considered, they are alternate universes.
>>41807416Tempest doesn’t have an on-screen body count, but she *must* have one given that she’s been the Storm King’s lieutenant for years and clearly shows no hesitation to put others in mortal danger. It’s impossible to imagine that Tempest hasn’t killed people to further her own ends.
>>41807449And is it possible to imagine someone as ruthless as Tirek never killed anyone?
>>41807430> I thought you said comics weren't canonI did not. You’re talking to multiple Anons.> which is why Nightmare Moon is allegedly the same as Luna despite the comics clearly showing the opposite?The comics contain elements that directly contradict the show, such as their handling of Sombra. I’m comfortable using the comics as source material when they don’t contradict the show, but when there’s a conflict between the two the show takes precedent. And in the show, Luna is unambiguous that there is no distinction between her and Nightmare Moon.>>41807437In what context?
>>41807450Yes, given that he has multiple opportunities to do so but doesn’t. Rather notably there’s little reason for him to have spared the Pillars unless he just isn’t interested in killing people.
>>41807482Just imagine harder like you did for Tempest.
>>41807489Oh, I’m sure he has actually killed. You asked if it was possible to imagine that he hadn’t, and based on what we see on-screen it certainly is possible to imagine that - but I admit it’s not likely.Then again I can also see all of the other villains having body counts of their own (except maybe Luna and Stygian, and then solely because of how immediately they were dealt with), so I don’t see the point in this line of conversation.
>>41806760>Tirek is not sadisticIrrelevant since he's evil in many different ways. Discord's sadism never extends beyond small-scale localized instances with no casualties post-reformation.>Tirek was presented as “more evil” than DiscordHe was. Discord had something he believed in (camaraderie with someone), Tirek believed in nothing but his cynical goals. Also, if you generously assume Tirek was not going to hurt or burn anypony down during his reign, than I could get as anally pedantic and claim that we never actually see Discord bring serious physical harm to anyone either.>if he wants to kill you he strikes me as someone who’ll just do it.Except for if he's weaker than you, then he'll try to weasel his way into your trust and backstab you later. >Discord is observed as someone who’ll instead warp your mindsAnd that means Discord gets more involved with his victims, which means he's easier to work with because he prioritizes entertainment. Tirek prioritizes his selfish goals above all and isn't willing to negotiate.>It wasn’t selfless at allFrom Tirek's view, it was. Discord demanded nothing but a meaningless gesture from him.>and then afterwards does nothing to try and harm TwilightWhich could as well be because he was euphoric over getting so much magic and more concerned with a power trip. You also generously assume he would go out of his way to not burn Twilight or her friends as collateral damage if they got in the way of his blast.>The villains never show a capacity for change UNTIL they are given a chance Actually, if we headcanon character motifs: Celestia knew both Discord and Tirek, and decided in her wisdom that, based on her experiences, Discord had a shot at redemption and Tirek didn't.>They all of them were unrepentant monstersLuna and Stygian were allegedly heroes in the past. Starlight and Tempest had been innocent at some point. Their existence doesn't inherently revolve around hurting others unlike Tirek's.
>>41807458>And in the show, Luna is unambiguous that there is no distinction between her and Nightmare Moon.I'll leave this argument to Lunafags, but I'll say that if we ignore any subtext and act like Nightmare Moon was JUST Luna, we'd have to accept that the very first villain of the show was brainwashed, which already throws any potential argument about ethics out of the window. If brainwashing is moral, then conventional ethics don't apply.>In what context?Cozy fooled Tirek into thinking he was benefitting when in reality all she did was leave him to rot in Tartarus with his enemies. Discord hid information from Tirek for a few hours before telling it to him. Allegedly, the latter is a serious breach of trust and warrants backstabbing, but the former is okay and means Cozy was still trustworthy.>>41807482Then Discord is a saint because he's never shown killing anyone despite having the power to. Truly the unsung hero of MLP with the strongest willpower.
>>41807514> Discord's sadism never extends beyond small-scale localized instancesThe distance between Canterlot and Ponyville isn’t consistent, but it’s anywhere from at least a few hours to as much as an overnight trip via train. When he escaped in “The Return of Harmony”, his chaos extended from Canterlot to Ponyville. That’s not “localized”, that’s the size of an east coast US state at minimum.> than I could get as anally pedantic and claim that we never actually see Discord bring serious physical harm to anyone either.He obliterated Big Mac’s mind and replaced it with a dog. Big Mac was functionally dead, at least the Big Mac that we knew. What we were looking at was a different person - dog, whatever - that just happened to be inhabiting Big Mac’s still-living body.Which I guess is not physical harm. But it’s horrifying in a way that I don’t think you’re allowing yourself to comprehend.> then he'll try to weasel his way into your trust and backstab you later.Again, we only see him turn on one person, who had already demonstrated himself to be untrustworthy. He otherwise keeps his bargains with Twilight (twice) and never tries to turn on Chrysalis or Cozy once they have an accord (in fact of the Trio he’s the one that works the hardest to keep them on equal footing and more often than not serves as a mediator between Cozy and Chrysalis.> and isn't willing to negotiate.Weird thing to say when he was the one who brought up the idea of negotiating with Twilight and in fact repeatedly demonstrates himself as being willing to negotiate.> You also generously assume he would go out of his way to not burn Twilight or her friends as collateral damage if they got in the way of his blast.I imagine that he’d view keeping out of harm’s way as Twilight’s job, not his. The point is that pretty much any other villain in the show, on getting what they want from Twilight would then say something to the effect of “and now that I have what I want I have no need of you!” and turn on Twilight. Tirek just leaves her and her friends alone.> and decided in her wisdomThis would be the same wisdom that had Celestia so thoroughly forget Tirek’s existence that she didn’t even notice he’d escaped Tartarus until months after the fact, then?
>>41807534> Cozy fooled Tirek into thinking he was benefitting when in reality all she did was leave him to rot in Tartarus with his enemies. Discord hid information from Tirek for a few hours before telling it to him. Allegedly, the latter is a serious breach of trust and warrants backstabbing, but the former is okay and means Cozy was still trustworthy.The former involves Tirek having all the available information and failing on his own to put things together, the latter invovled Discord actively keeping vital information from him. Cozy didn’t keep anything from Tirek, he simply failed (on his own) to consider the consequences of his actions. That’s *his* failure. It’s the difference between it being able to finish a puzzle despite having all the pieces, and not being able to finish a puzzle because someone has kept pieces of it from you.
>>41807558>When he escaped in “The Return of Harmony”I said post-redemption.>He obliterated Big Mac’s mind and replaced it with a dog.Who's to say Big Mac didn't enjoy it? He seemed quite happy. Certainly happier than the ponies Tirek drained of magic. And again, if Luna is the same as NM, then obliterating Luna's mind and replacing it with post-NM Luna that tortures herself is moral, which means mind control isn't that big of a deal in Equestria. >But it’s horrifying in a way that I don’t think you’re allowing yourself to comprehend.I would prefer to have the mind of a carefree dog than to be robbed of my life force, rendered helpless and then potentially burned alive. >Weird thing to say when he was the one who brought up the idea of negotiating with TwilightOnly when he couldn't overpower her. Before that he was perfectly willing to physically hurt her as his immediate reaction.>any other villain in the show, on getting what they want from Twilight would then say something to the effect of “and now that I have what I want I have no need of you!” and turn on Twilight. Tirek just leaves her and her friends alone.Discord left her and her friends alone too, didn't he? And unlike Tirek he wasn't actively causing destruction afterward, just transforming the world.>This would be the same wisdom that had Celestia so thoroughly forget Tirek’s existence that she didn’t even notice he’d escaped Tartarus until months after the fact, then?But afterwards she remembered about him, and, going off her impressions of him, judged him inadequate for redemption. >>41807574See, this kind of victim-blaming justification is very malleable and can be applied to any situation. You could say it's Tirek's fault he wasn't more thorough when interrogating Discord in the first place and let himself be kept in the dark for even a short time.
>>41807587> I said post-redemptionAh, then you’re referring to the Plundervines he planted 1,000 years ago which sprang forth from the Everfree Forest and attacked all of Equestria, certainly reaching far enough to get to Canterlot they were able to grab Luna and Celestia, and meanwhile we’re knocking pegasi from the sky and suffocating ponies left and right. The Plundervines that it’s made clear he could have stopped at any time, or at least been more upfront about the nature of, but instead chose to allow to continue their destruction because they might (at the cost of destroying Equestria) destroy the Elements of Harmony, the one thing that can stop him from doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants.> Who's to say Big Mac didn't enjoy it?You’re kidding, right? This can’t be a serious question. It’s 2025 and you’re on 4chan, you *must* be familiar with the concept of mind rape and death of personality.> then obliterating Luna's mind and replacing it with post-NM Luna This doesn’t happen in the show. Nightmare Moon is Luna. There is no “obliteration” of a minds. There is Luna throwing a tantrum, her getting smacked with magic and de-powered, and then Celestia reaching out to Alina and appealing to their sisterly bond.> Before that he was perfectly willing to physically hurt her as his immediate reaction.Sure - but he was also willing to negotiate when that didn’t work. So saying he “isn’t willing to negotiate” is bullshit, because he plainly is.> Discord left her and her friends alone too, didn't he?Yes, after he’d been sadistically tormenting all of them and getting them to turn themselves into worse people, except for Fluttershy, which specifically pissed him off when he wasn’t able to corrupt her. Discord left the six alone because they were his toys and he thought he’d broken them, so he’d gone off to find new toys.Tirek left Twilight and her friends alone because he made a bargain with Twilight, her friends in exchange for alicorn power. Turning on them and killing them would go directly against that bargain - Twilight hardly has her friends if Tirek just obliterates the lot of them. The two situations aren’t comparable.> But afterwardsI don’t think it counts as “wisdom” if you only remember something vital it at a point where it’s nearly past the point of usefulness.
>>41807587> See, this kind of victim-blaming justification is very malleable and can be applied to any situation. You could say it's Tirek's fault he wasn't more thorough when interrogating Discord in the first place and let himself be kept in the dark for even a short time.Sure, you could. But this isn’t about your perception or mine, it’s about Tirek’s. He plainly reacts far more harshly to Discord keeping information from him (and I’m not even talking about his attack on Discord, I simply mean his immediate reaction to learning about Twilight and to Discord’s nonchalant dismissal of said reaction) than he does to Cozy not cluing him in to something he should have been aware of. Discord keeping information from him is something Tirek plainly feels is something he should blame Discord for, but Cozt not telling him something that should have been obvious anyway is clearly something he doesn’t fault Cozy for, given that he never once brings it up against her later.
>>41807680Oh, and to get back on topic:And this generally honorable streak, recognition of his own foibles and limitations, coupled with his lack of sadism, is why “Twilight’s Kingdom” and the show as a whole does not present Tirek as being more evil than Discord was as his own worst.Which is not to say that he isn’t an evil bastard in his own right. He just isn’t worse than Discord. He’s the Lawful Evil to Discord’s Chaotic Evil,
>>41807587> I would prefer to have the mind of a carefree dogBut you don’t have the kind of a carefree dog. The dog inhabiting hour body has the mind of a carefree dog. YOU don’t exist. YOU are for all intents and purposes dead.
Hello Cozyfags i see you guys are talking about Tirek.Whats the discussion this time around?
>>41807534He didnt really get fooled.Tirek said "you guys will be stuck here with me."So really he knew and didnt get fooled
Tireks character isnt a sadistic one.You can see it letting the bird free in a late episode.All he cares is being strong which is why he sucks off magic.Which is why he blasted a forest when an alternative timeline cause he wanted to flex himself with his own power.By all means if weak people dont go and try to stop him then he isnt really gonna do anything to them cause he simply doesnt care.Not a good guy still but they are way worse characters like him
>>41807512>so I don’t see the point in this line of conversation.Exactly, imagining anyone killed anyone in this particular kid's show is stupid, there's no point.
>>41807558Tirek tried to steal Chrysalis magic in Grogard lair.Although he later developed into working togheter and actually giving her magic back so i guess thats sorta outdated now.Its weird cause considering how he asked Twi if she is sure to have discord back considering he betrayed them.Maybe he hates the fact that discord betrayed them cause it reminds them of his brother?
>>41807688Keep in mind that Tirek also got redeemed by giving chrissy her magic back.Which sucks considering he was supposed to be an "ireedimable villian"
Discords thing in S4 was that he wanted a friend but the problem with FS was that while they were friends Discord had to keep his chaotic nature in check.Tirek offered him Friendship.And unike the ponies he would let discord be discord.In a way you could say its selfish since he immediatly ditched FS for him and only regretted it after losing Tirek.
>>41807587>mind control isn't that big of a deal in Equestria.It never was, many characters such as Twilight, Cadance, CMCs, etc. dabbled in mind control. MLP doesn't treat any type of mind control as a crime, it's just wacky cartoon hijinks in this universe. More people need to realize this fact.
Legion of Doom got a lot of controversy being redeemed but no one cares aout Sombra lol
>>41807981The loudest most autistic people are the waifufags. If their waifu gets boned in any way (domestically, sexually, or judicially) then they'll whine about it no matter what. Sombra is male, there's not enough husbandofags to screech in every corner of the web.
>>41807902what's even your definition of redeem?
They got the IDW comcis for that one so they are fine.Somebody really was a Sombrafag cause he got a lot of screentime.
>>41807907Problem is he went back to villany after being given a secons chance despite doing nothing to earn it.
>>41807981If Tirek was a loli centaur you bet your ass the character would have as much people arguing for their release.
>>41805502>They weren’t given a chance to.They had plenty of time. There was an entire scene of Pinkie being silly. They did nothing. There's no excuse.>manipulation skills aren’t supernaturalCozy was just asking for the impossible. You can't manipulate Fluttershy into doing the rainboom.>powerless to manipulate anyoneShe said she was going to go elsewhere. It's impossible to tell if she's even being reformed anyway, if no one trusts her no one will trust her reformation since she will be faking everything.>If we’re taking that tack then the Elements have banished creatures to Tartarus before. The point is the elements approve of Twilight's curriculum, thus Cozy did learn what friendship is about and she made many friends to prove it.>If the Elements wanted Cozy in Tartarus then she’d be in Tartarus.If the elements wanted Cozy redeemed, it'd redeem her.>But I don’t agree with this in the context of MLPIf friendship and morality is the same as you incorrectly claim then the trio who are friends would have stopped their evil ambitions.>getting them to act in Equestria’s defense is the exact same thing that got Discord started on the road to redemption.Nowhere near the same, that's ludicrous. No one forced or asked Flim and Flam to be there.>Keep Calm method of dealing with problems has a 100% success rate, which is a lot better than the 0% of petrification.Celestia wanted Discord's power. Petrification and banishment is not used to redeem people, it's for stopping present day threats.>No, Sterlight didn’t.All the m6 did was expose her lie, nothing else. >By your own admission, Luna didn’t.Getting your ass kicked isn't an "appeal", Luna stopped aggression and acted remorseful. You know what Luna didn't do? Angrily scream at Celestia that she'll never stop trying to usher in eternal darkness, she would have been sent back to the moon. I'll grant you Tempest on that technicality even though she did bravely sacrifice herself to save Twilight, it's great you love the movie, but you need to rewatch the show because you're wrong about the show's villains. There is one thing in common that all redeemed villains did: They stopped aggression and acted remorseful. And you have to show you're redeemable first, you're not owed redemption, only exception being Discord since he's a god and Celestia wanted his power. The trio failed at all of this.
>>41805515>By the way; Cozy’s known body count is 0Murder doesn't happen in Equestria, it's a kid's show. But that is the severity of her crime. This is just a distraction to the fact that the trio never felt empathy or remorse for their victims.>That would explain a neutral reaction, it wouldn’t explain looking actually worried and concerned that she’d messed upShe's really dedicated to her act in public areas and it shows she didn't intend for the CMCs to get in trouble as that hinders her plans.>she is still nevertheless an ordinary filly in terms of actual abilities, and so sending her to Tartarus is both grossly out of proportion to her actual threat levelHer crimes fit the bill and most importantly she never showed remorse.>Chrysalis is never established as being powerfulShe was designed to be an evil bug version of Celestia. Shining's power just tipped the scales in her favor. And no, Starlight can't just capture her, Starlight's fighting style is based on evasion, and she was too distraught at Chryssy's refusal. It was clear everyone was weakened from their love being drained and that they simply hoped she would no longer attack ponies without her army. There is zero implication they thought she's redeemable especially after she just refused it and it's shown Chrysalis can feed off the love of animals which is enough for an individual.>A lesson he literally never takes to heart all the way to the finale?Discord is a chaotic being unlike anyone else. And you have to remember that Celestia wanted his power so they are willing to put up with his shenanigans. Once you are a friend ponies are very forgiving.
>>41807886> Tirek tried to steal Chrysalis magic in Grogard lairBefore their accord. And he wasn’t doing it simply to be evil, he was trying to get stronger.> Maybe he hates the fact that discord betrayed them cause it reminds them of his brother?I mean that’s obvious, isn’t it? He very obviously has a huge chip on his shoulder over Scorpan turning on him. It wounded him a lot more than he’s willing to admit or acknowledge.>>41807981The circumstances around Sombra’s death are extremely different. He was in the middle of actively attacking the M6, while at the height of his power and abilities. The M6 defended themselves and that defense happened to kill Sombra, but it was pointed out back in “Shadow Play” that the M6 don’t really control the Elements or decide what they do, they just put them on and let them do their thing.Compare/contrast the Trio, who get the mother of all rainbow lasers, but then are left depowered yet alive and free, not vaporized or banished to the moon or Tartarus or oblivion. They were at the hero’s mercy, and the heroes are currently at the height of their own power and have a literal army at their backs. Twilight then *chooses* to do nothing but watch as the three are first assaulted and humiliated by Pinkie Pie, and then excoriated and functionally executed by Discord and the Princesses. In a show called “Friendship is Magic”, in its grand finale, against three villains whom we the audience know have shown the potential for friendship, Twilight the Princess of Friendship doesn’t try to make friends one last time even though it would have cost her nothing but thirty seconds of her time.>>41808359Only Chrysalis was ever given a second chance, and her rejection of it exactly mirrors Starlight’s rejection of the same in “The Cutie Map”, so it should in no way be construed as meaning that Chrysalis is beyond hope.>>41808770> There was an entire scene of Pinkie being silly.You mean the scene they spend flattened under a cake and then immediately on getting out from beneath are excoriated and executed? That one?
>>41808770> Getting your ass kicked isn't an "appeal"No, but what Celestia did afterwards *is*.
>>41808772> Starlight's fighting style is based on evasion,Yeah like that time she evaded Twilight and Spike into being trapped in Crystal, unable to move. And it’s a moot point anyway because *Discord is there*, and on top of that we don’t actually have any reason to think the others are somehow drained or weakened, and on top of that did you even watch the video I posted.> And you have to remember that Celestia wanted his powerSo in other words you don’t actually believe in ethics or morality, just pragmatism. Discord could be useful, so he gets a second chance. Chrysalis isn’t useful, so fuck her she can just die?What a horrible human being you are.
>>41808772> Shining's power just tipped the scales in her favor.That is not how Chrysalis herself phrased it, instead she directly expresses surprise at being able to overpower Celestia and plainly puts it down to the love she’s gorged on. Chrysalis. A woman not exactly noted for her small ego or humility, and she’s in a room full of future victims and zero other changelings so it’s not like there’s anyone around she needs to impress.Chrysalis herself doesn’t think that she’s near Celestia’s power. That’s your fan fiction, which you’re writing in order to support your fan fiction that no one in TWABA thought she was capable of redemption even though we know for a fact that is false.m and even though the scene plain doesn’t make sense in any other context no matter how hard you try and twist it otherwise.Look, I like fanfic fine, but you can’t use it while in the middle of a discussion about the actual events of the show.
>>41807882> imagining anyone killed anyone in this particular kid's show is stupidAh, but you’re forgetting something: while the villains of MLP don’t have an on-screen body count, the heroes do. Sombra has been killed on three separate occasions: once 1,000 years ago, once when he returned in Season 3, and once when he was brought back in Season 9.But whereas the first two deaths involved him acting of his own accord and doing his own thing and needing to be stopped, Sombra’s return in Season 3…1) Only happened because Discord specifically brought him back;2) it was made clear that Discord could have stopped him at any time, but chose not to because it suited his purposes, meaning that every terrible thing Sombra does is partially Discord’s fault too;3) Discord’s entire motivation for how he handled Sombra at all was to orchestrate his death so that he could then use that death to get the Trio in-line.In other words, Discord brought someone back to life purely so that he could kill that person as a means of keeping three other people whom he intended to eventually dispose of in line.I repeat: Discord has not become better by Season 9. Any brownie points he might earn by wanting to “do something nice for Twilight” (without considering how Twilight might actually take it) is undercut by the fact that the “nice” thing involves disregarding basic compassion and dignity towards Sombra, the Trio, and all their victims while they’re under his aegis. Remember, Discord’s Plan A involved the people of the Crystal Empire being enslaved by their biggest nightmare again. It involved tricking Fluttershy into thinking he’d been badly wounded and fearing for his life. And if everything had gone according to plan then it would have involved wrecking Twilight’s coronation, one of the most important days of her life.
>>41808894Which happens AFTER Luna stops aggression and shows remorse. If only the trio did that.
>>41808772> and it's shown Chrysalis can feed off the love of animals which is enough for an individual.This doesn’t track with your own claim that they think she’s beyond redemption. Yes, she *can* feed from animals, but why would they believe she *would* limit herself strictly to animals if they also think she’s still nothing more than an evil ex-queen?
>>41809539> Which happens AFTER Luna stops aggression and shows remorse.No, she didn’t. She was knocked unconscious and Celestia begins attempting to appeal to her as she’s in the middle of regaining it:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wbzRRp2jRHw&pp=ygUMTHVuYSByZWZvcm1zAnd more to the point Celestia had already resolved *to* make that appeal before Luna had even regained consciousness.I don’t know why you’re making claims that can be easily falsified by just actually watching the show.
>>41808888>and her rejection of it exactly mirrors Starlight’s rejection of the same in “The Cutie Map”No it doesn't, Starlight in the premiere mirrors Trixie in Boast Busters. Chrysalis mirrors the s5 finale but rejects instead of accept. Watch the show.
>>41809569>Luna doesn't angrily scream at Celestia that she'll never stop trying to usher in eternal darknessOh would you look at that, she didn't act like the trio did and didn't get rebanished to the moon.
>>41809581> Luna doesn't angrily scream at Celestia that she'll never stop trying to usher in eternal darknessCelestia was already in the middle of appealing to her. Twilight just did a big speech about how she’s better than the Trio, blasted them with magic, and then stood by apathetically for the rest of the scene rather than taking thirty seconds out of her immortal life to talk to the three not as a judgmental god to insolent mortals, but as one person to another.>>41809574> Chrysalis mirrors the s5 finale but rejects instead of acceptTwilight tried for *hours* to get through to Starlight. Starlight said barely thirty words to Chrysalis. They are not comparable situations, but Twilight’s original attempt at a friendship speech back in the S5 premier that Starlight interrupts is.On top of that, Twilight appealed to Starlight while Starlight still had all the power and without having actually done anything to Starlight herself in the finale. Conversely, Starlight has just played a direct role in destroying Chrysalis’ throne, blowing up her home, and turning her people against her, in the process also robbing Chrysalis of her entire self-image as the one who’s responsible for feeding the changelings, and then phrases her appeal as simply letting Chrysalis have the stuff they Starlight’s taken back as long as Chrysalis capitulates.Which I don’t blame Starlight for, but it’s nevertheless easy to see how someone with an ego like Chrysalis’ could react to a thief and marauder who’s destroyed everything she knew offering to let her have her stuff back with anger. Chrysalis’ role as Queen of the Changelings is not Starlight’s to take, or to give.The situation is much more comparable to the S5 opening in that respect (when Starlight had her entire town turn on her and rob her of her self-image).
>>41809642You keep forgetting Chrysalis existed all the way back in s2 which is comparable to Trixie and Starlight's first episodes of a villain being introduced and outed in some way. But in their second episode Trixie and Starlight see the error of their ways, while Chrysalis rejects it. You're bending over backwards trying to criss-cross episodes using superficial plot points when the obvious message of the episodes is crystal clear.
>>41809687> You keep forgetting Chrysalis existed all the way back in s2 I’m not forgetting it at all. But at no point in that episode is there an appeal to Chrysalis, is there?As I pointed out:1. No villain in MLP has realized the error of their ways on their own; and2. No villain in MLP has reformed without a major appeal or gesture from the heroes happening FIRST, and several of them required multiple appeals or gestures.> But in their second episode Trixie and Starlight see the error of their waysTrixie is an awful example. She did literally nothing wrong in her first episode except for brag a little, but she was in no way responsible for the Ursa being set loose on town. Her second episode has her expressly under magical cooties influencing her actions and making her a worse person, although the plan to show up in Ponyville and fuck with Twilight was hers. And you’re forgetting that in her third appearance her actions are once again motivated at least partially by a desire to fuck with Twilight once she realizes she has the opportunity to do so.So Trixie does literally nothing wrong in her first appearance, actually fucks up in her second but it’s made clear in-show that it’s not totally her fault, and is still motivated at least partially by a desire to fuck around with Twilight in her third (speaking) appearance (technically her third appearance is in an alternate timeline in “The Cutie Re-Mark” but I’m assuming we’re not counting that). However even after that third appearance she is still shown to always delight in nettling Twilight.
>>41809642All the trio had to do was surrender and accept defeat. Just look at Luna, she clearly felt bad about what she'd done. Celestia talking to her has nothing to do with that. Celestia could have done absolutely nothing and Luna would still not attack them or try to take over the world again. The trio? They didn't give a shit, they didn't see their defeat as a lesson learned even after Twilight telling them how friendship will always prevail. They lost time and time again and still wanted to continue being evil bastards, the (((appeal))) you desperately talk about as the crux of your entire argument is worthless when they are not open to change. MLP makes it clear that the villain needs to have the propensity for change.
>>41809801> However even after that third appearance she is still shown to always delight in nettling Twilight.Oh, and on top of that the “error” in her ways was her arrogant and boastful nature, a trait she never loses. So no, Trixie never sees the error of her ways. Which is fine because she’s not a villain. She’s usually an antagonist, sure, but she’s not a *villain*. The fact that you’re even resorting to bringing her up shows how laughable your position really is.
>>41809801Both of your points have been proven wrong multiple times.The m6 and everyone in town treats it like Trixie did everything wrong. It doesn't matter what us as the viewers think.
>>41809815>arrogant and boastful nature, a trait she never losesWhat is RAINBOW DASHBro you're pathetic.
>>41809810> Just look at Luna, she clearly felt bad about what she'd done. Celestia - her sister - is in the middle of appealing to her. Who did that in The Ending of The End for the Trio?> when they are not open to changeNeither was Discord. And you can’t say “well he agreed to try anyway” because no, he DIDN’T. We see that he has his fingers crossed when he “promises” to try and he was actively working against the ponies for the entirety of “Keep Calm”. > MLP makes it clear that the villain needs to have the propensity for change.MLP also makes it clear that someone needs to take a risk to try and give them to opportunity to discover that propensity. Something that was never tried with the Trio, save Chrysalis, but under the worst possible circumstances for it to actually work.
>>41809831>Celestia - her sister - is in the middle of appealing to her. Who did that in The Ending of The End for the Trio?Twilight just "appealed" to them earlier.
>>41809823> Both of your points have been proven wrong multiple timesNot even once, actually. Every time you or others have tried it’s been made clear that you’re misremembering things. “Discord showed a willingness to change!”, for example, while casually forgetting thet ther willingness came AFTER the risk to try and change him was already taken.It’s kind of pathetic that I have a better memory of the events of the show than you do given that I’ve seen most of the episodes and the movie at most once.>>41809827But that’s rather the point, isn’t it? Trixie isn’t a villain simply because she’s boastful, so for that reason - among the others I outlined - she’s a horrible example to use as a “gotcha!” where the Trio are concerned.
>>41809841No, she didn’t. Her entire speech is talking down to them and telling them how awful they are compared to her and her friends and how powerful that friendship has made them.Celestia, by contrast:> It has been a thousand years since I have seen you like this. Time to put our differences behind us. We were meant to rule together, little sister. […] Will you accept my friendship?
>>41809842>n-no i never got proven wrong fake news everyone is misrememberingPeople have called you out on your bullshit multiple times.Watch the show.
>>41789734
>>41809850>Celestia telling her sister to just forget about all the reasons why she turned evil in the first place>lets not solve your issue, just accept friendship and be my little bitch again
>>41809855If saying it only made it so. Sorry, but you can’t just claim victory when you folk are the ones who’ve actually been proven wrong time and again.>>41809862I mean funnily enough that exact problem - that the things that made Luna decide to go goth hadn’t really been solved - was then used as the basis of multiple later episodes, including “Luna Eclipsed”, which fun fact was the first episode of MLP I saw.
>>41809868Sorry, bro you can't claim victory when the show contradicts you in every way.
>>41809868>that the things that made Luna decide to go goth hadn’t really been solvedExactly, she wasn't "appealed" to. She stopped fighting and surrendered like most redeemed villains.
>>41809873> Sorry, bro you can't claim victory when the show contradicts you in every way.Prove it. I’ve made two claims that should be easily falsifiable. Let’s start with the first:>No villain in MLP has realized the error of their ways on their ownIf the show contradicts me in every way then it should be easy for you to find a villain who realized the error of their ways without outside help. Go on then. Name that villain.>>41809880> She stopped fightingYou say that like she stood down of her own accord instead of being blasted into unconsciousness and waking up to her sister already appealing to her and trying to reach her. Sorry, but you’re not gonna gaslight me into forgetting how one of the most important events of the show went down.
>>41809892She didn't threaten to attack Equestria again like the trio did. Watch the show.
>>41809892>sister already appealing to herWe went over this already. Celestia wasn't appealing to her.
>>41809918> She didn't threaten to attack Equestria again like the trio did.She was appealed to without blame or recrimination, which the Trio weren’t. Watch the show yourself, you might learn something.>>41809925> Celestia wasn't appealing to her.Bitch I posted the scene upthread and quoted it directly loess than ten posts ago. You are not gonna gaslight me on this, and the fact that you think you can shows how unstable your position really is.
>>41809927You don't know what an appeal is. What Celestia said to Luna and Twilight to the trio is the same thing.
>>41809927>Just accept friendship, bitchNice appeal. At least Luna accepted it, the trio didn't.
>>41809937>>41809944Ah, I see we’ve reached the “gesticulating helplessly” and “if I troll hard enough no one will realize I’ve lost” part of the conversation. Took look enough.I also can’t help but notice that you haven’t answered my simple challenge from >>41809892.
>>41809857
>>41809968>no argument so he resorts to claiming win/loss once again
>>41809857KINO
>>41810009How do you counter someone who doesn’t have an argument? Assuming you’re >>41809944, you’re completely misrepresenting Celestia’s phrasing and completely making up the idea that anyone appealed to the Trio. I have no argument because those are both flat lies. I can no more argue against that then I can argue against a Flat Earther who is pretending that I’m claiming the Earth is banana-shaped. I’d say you’re strawmanning but it’s really more like you just dumped a pile of hay in front of me and then claimed it was chairs.
All three of them were completely redeemable.
All three of them were completely irredeemable.
>>41809862That anon has been gaslighting us this entire time selectively choosing which statements count as appeals to suit his narrative. He's a disingenuous manipulative psychopath like Cozy.
>>41810257>That anon has been gaslighting us this entire time selectively choosing which statements count as appealsThe only one I've disqualified is Twilight's speech in "The Ending of the End", because it *isn't* an appeal.>ENOUGH! Because of you, I almost lost my way! But everycreature here has reminded me of the true power of friendship! There will always be darkness in the world, but there will also always be those who find the light! The Pillars knew this! That's why they created the Elements of Harmony! The Elements showed me and my friends how strong our friendship could be! Together we worked to bring harmony to Equestria! But there will always be more to do! Which is why we teach others about the Magic of Friendship! Others who will continue our mission after we are gone! Now I truly understand! The Elements were just symbols! The real magic has always been right here! And the more who understand how powerful friendship is, the stronger we will all be! Together!An appeal is a "serious or urgent request" or "an earnest plea" or "an earnest request for aid, support, sympathy, mercy, etc.; entreaty; petition; plea" or any number of other like definitions in this context.Where in the above quote is the entreaty? Where is the plea to the Trio to try and be better? Where is the request for them to change their ways? Where is an offer to help them if only they listen to reason? Where is ANYTHING that would make this an appeal?It's nowhere. It's just a proclamation of power.>gaslighting "Gaslighting" is saying that I've been selectively choosing which statements count as appeals to suit my narrative, which I plainly haven't been doing since there's only one statement I've said hasn't been an appeal, and it's one that unambiguously isn't.
>>41810257It's misdirection concocted to place the blame on the heroes, dishonest as fuck.
>>41810307There is no misdirection. The heroes did not appeal to the Trio. In a show called "Friendship is Magic", in its final episode, no one tried to make friends.
>>41810318The characters don't need to abide by your twisted sense of justice. They protected and preserved friendship in Equestria, friendship won in the end.
>>41810115you're rightdiscord, luna and celestia.
>>41810367>The characters don't need to abide by your twisted sense of justiceNo, I just expect them to abide by their own that had been established in previous seasons plus the movie.>They protected and preserved friendship in EquestriaYeah, they did, by blasting the Trio with the mother of all rainbow lasers. It's what came *after* that represents a moral and ethical vacuum and a complete betrayal of everything they had once stood for.
>>41810367>The characters don't need to abide by your twisted sense of justice.Not five episodes previously we'd had an episode that ended with this moral:> Rainbow Dash: Maybe there is something to this whole listening-to-everypony thing.> Fluttershy: It doesn't always mean they're telling the truth, but everycreature deserves kindness.Like I said upthread: morals don't mean anything if you get to pick and choose when to apply them.
>>41810634Fluttershy isn't Celestia.
>>41810659And Celestia isn't perfect. She can, and does, fuck up.
>>41810608>betrayal of everything they had once stood foryour headcanon
>>41810719Twilight once had no power but the ability to choose between the safety of all of Equestria in one hoof and the life of one mare who didn't deserve to be saved in the other, and she chose to save the mare.This is completely incompatible with S9 Twilight having all the power, an entire army at her back, and yet being unwilling to take thirty seconds to try one last appeal to get through to the Trio.That's not headcanon, that's just me being able to recognize bad writing when I see it.
>>41810737Tempest? There's many things strange in the movie like Twilight stealing the artifact and then that careless thing she said to Pinkie. McCarthy is also the one behind Discord's redemption. Regardless, I don't think taking pity on her necessarily means she has to take pity on everyone. She had prior engagements with Tirek and Chrysalis, seeing nothing to pity out of them, and then Cozy makes a mockery of her teachings. You're looking at things strictly in a black and white lens without evaluating why Twilight makes her decisions.
>>41810785Tempest literally helped Storm King conquer entire kingdoms.
>>41811151If those kingdoms were creatures then based.
>>41810367>twisted sense of justiceYou mean like how our two benevolent princesses and the demigod who caused all the trouble to begin with got to execute three defenseless and already weakened villains without so much as a trial? Also taking into consideration that Tirek and Cozy were already doing their time and Chrysalis was living in isolation. Meanwhile the guy who broke them out and brought them together faces no repercussions for his actions. Yep that sounds like some morally good justice to me.
>>41811384Court system doesn't exist, at least not for national level threats. That level of threat is Celestia's jurisdiction and Twilight has her licence to kill so to speak.How exactly do you want to punish a god of chaos. Celestia has elected to conscript his power for the benefit of Equestria and knows well the risks involved. Discord only manipulated prisoners of war, that can be overlooked for the greater good.
>>41810785> There's many things strange in the movieThere’s nothing strange about it. It’s a natural evolution of Twilight’s character and approach to villains, in fact: - Season 4, learns that she should have been nicer to Discord - Season 5, learns that not every villain can be stopped by rainbow laser, you need to appeal to them - Season 5, watches as the lesson of season 5 is reinforced when Starlight helps the entire changeling hive reform and sees that even Chrysalis has a heart buried under her ego - Season 7, learns that her idols can screw-up royal and that some villains only needed someone to actually care for them> I don't think taking pity on her necessarily means she has to take pity on everyoneYeah, who needs a consistent characterization anyway.We’re not talking about a situation like Sombra, where he was at the height of his power and in the middle of trying to kill her and her friends. The Trio were defeated, stripped of their power, completely at her mercy. It is irreconcilable with Twilight of seasons 1-7 plus the movie that Twilight wouldn’t take thirty seconds of time to try one last appeal.>>41811476> How exactly do you want to punish a god of chaos. Simple, the Bewitching Bell is right there. Take his powers until he demonstrates that he can be trusted with them. He has literally threatened Equestria more *since* being released from stone than he did *before* it.> Discord only manipulated prisoners of war, that can be overlooked for the greater good.But he wasn’t doing it for the greater good, you mongoloid. He was doing it to try and help ONE mare - without considering what her actual feelings on it would be - and his plan A involved hurting the citizenry of two nations and terrifying all his other supposed “friends”, not to mention wrecking one of the most important days of Twilight’s life.Also?> only manipulated prisoners of war1) they’re not POW’s2) they weren’t Discord’s prisoners, they were Equestria’s, and Celestia wasn’t in on Discord’s plan.3) are you honestly telling me that you have no moral issue with abusing prisoners? If so, congratulations: you’re a bad person. You don’t have to wonder about that anymore. You can go through life confident that you are human trash.
Oh, by the way, in the entire series, Twilight never reformed villains when the force was on her side, for example, Twilight reformed Starlight because she couldn't physically defeat her in any other way except by manipulation, she couldn't win, she helped to reform Discord not because she wanted to, but because Celestia ordered her to reform Discord, which Twilight did when she defeated the villain, was an offer to make friends, and for Trixie, who didn't really want to sit in Tartarus, it worked, but if Twilight had decided to fix Discord herself, then, most likely, after the first refusal to be friends, she would turn him into stone, which is why it is hypocritical to watch starlight or discord try to reform after 20 refusals, and goat radiance goes to tartarus after one emotional rejection.
>mind broken by Discordthe only problem he caused he solved hes a good boy now
>>41810284>>Because of you, I almost lost my way!>Almost:_(
>>41811926>Simple, the Bewitching Bell is right there.The Rainbow Beam hits the bell and it powers down or something and I would say that implies that the bell is stripped of its abilities and is thus broken (except for letting victims get their magic back).
>>41812097 #No, it didn’t. It worked fine when Pinkie uses it to get Discord’s powers, then when Discord uses it to take them back. There is absolutely nothing on-screen to suggest it isn’t working just fine.>>41812012An earlier version of this post misread yours and responded with something irrelevant. Mea culpa, I’d just woken up like 10 minutes earlier.
>>41812018Good boys don’t cause problems in the first place.
>>41812261Oh yeah right, don't know why they included that shot of the bell getting hit then...
>>41812261And for that matter... how does Discord know how to use the bell? The Trio needed instructions from a book from the archives to use it. Discord didn't read that, did he?
>>41789734She deserved to be drawn and quartered, lol. All she had to do was not commit crimes. No sympathy for criminals
>>41811177She also helped enslave mares.
>>41807646>PlundervinesNo one was in any real danger, he had it all under control. >you *must* be familiar with the concept of mind rape and death of personality.Provide arguments for why letting ponies suffer under your tyrannical rule is more ethical than lobotomizing them into happy retards.>Nightmare Moon is Luna. There is no “obliteration” of a minds.Then why does she act so differently when NM and require a transformation to manifest it? Also, doesn't S7 treat Daybreaker, which is Celestia's analog of NM, as a different personality Celestia literally must fight? >So saying he “isn’t willing to negotiate” is bullshit, because he plainly is.This is the same level of "negotiation" as that of a robber holding you at gunpoint. He only cares for his goals and isn't willing to consider the other side. Discord might do that just to entertain himself.>The two situations aren’t comparable.Sure they are. If Discord left Twilight and others alone because they were broken toys to him, then Tirek left Twilight and others alone because he had no use for them anymore. This is very similar, except Tirek would probably kill them later as collateral damage while Discord would probably keep them around.>>41807688>generally honorable streakNonsense. >it's honorable if I render my enemies helpless and then just happen to kill them on my rampage, it's their fault for not evading meSo if someone ties up your arms and sics a bear on you and says you're free to go if you beat the bear, they're be honorable and it'd be your fault if you lost?>recognition of his own foibles and limitationsHas little to do with the extent of one's evil.>coupled with his lack of sadismThe extent of Tirek's ruthlessness is more destructive than the extent of Discord's sadism. >He just isn’t worse than Discord. He’s the Lawful Evil to Discord’s Chaotic Evil,Discord is the playful evil to Tirek's destructive evil. Discord can be redirected, Tirek has a one-track mind. Tirek is worse.
>>41807646>I don’t think it counts as “wisdom” if you only remember something vital it at a point where it’s nearly past the point of usefulness.It's very useful to not let a psychopath like Tirek roam free.Also, something I just thought of: if Tirek is "the kind of guy to kill you directly" and he only backstabbed Discord because of a tiny tidbit of information, why didn't he attack Discord immediately after Discord revealed that information?
>>41812012>after one emotional rejection.And months of specifically being taught friendship but only using it for evil?
>>41812518> Provide arguments for why letting ponies suffer under your tyrannical rule is more ethical than lobotomizing them into happy retards.People can theoretically lead fulfilling lives under tyrannical rulers - Rarity and Rainbow Dash seemed to be doing well for themselves in the Nightmare Moon Victorious timeline. You are not denying their ability to make their own choices (even if that choice might be “obey or die” - at least they get to die as themselves) and have the sanctity of their own minds.Discord Victorious is a world where you can’t trust your own senses, where there is no reprieve from the chaos around you. There is no common point of reference. The sun rises and sets at random intervals. Someone you’re talking to suddenly becomes a warped mockery of their former selves. Your dog suddenly grows long legs like a giraffe and thinks you’re a chew toy. You sneeze and your house falls down because it’s a cardboard cutout. And at any moment your own mind and perceptions could be warped, making you think a hole in the ground is actually your mom’s house, or a random tree is actually your long-last dad. Discord might make you suddenly love things you hated or hate things you loved. If he thought it would be funny he might make a mother explode on and cuss out her own child, sending him fleeing in terror and tears, only to then restore the mother’s mind so that he could watch her own horror at what she’d done.And you can’t even tell me “he wouldn’t do that” because that’s exactly the sort of things we saw him do. He made Fluttershy cruel, he made Rainbow Dash think a random cloud was Cloudsdale, he made Granny Smith care more about dancing than her own granddaughter. The kinds of things IngSoc in 1984 needed entire ministries and agents and weeks of time to do to people, Discord can do and will do with a snap of his fingers in a Discord Victorious world.You cannot possibly tell me you’d prefer that world to just having to live under the rule of mere tyrant whom the worst thing he is known to do to people is try and kill them. Discord Victorious makes you SUFFER without rhyme or reason. He personally delights in your suffering.
>>41812518> doesn't S7 treat DaybreakerDaybreaker isn’t real. Daybreaker isn’t even Celestia’s fantasy. Daybreaker is Starlight Glimmer’s nightmare of what an evil Celestia might be like. How S7 treats Daybreaker doesn’t matter because she’s a figment of Starlight’s imagination.
>>41812518> So if someone ties up your arms and sics a bear on you Do you even watch the show? Tirek very deliberately turns away from Twilight after taking her power and his euphoric rampage is moving away from her. In fact, doing one better, based on the fact that the other M6’s eyes are back to normal rather than drained and colorless, he even restored their magic when returning them to Twilight, something Twilight didn’t ask for.The analogy is more like if someone bound your hands but left your feet just fine, set you up five of your friends who aren’t bound, but then turned and walked away while letting you know “by the way I’m gonna go walk my pet bear over here, you might wanna leave”.> This is the same level of "negotiation" as that of a robber holding you at gunpoint. He only cares about his goals and isn't willing to consider the other sideYes, it is, but that’s still negotiation. So you are flat wrong when you said Tirek isn’t willing to negotiate. That’s your fanfiction, not the facts of the show.
>>41789734Swiggity SwatchuI turn you into a statue
>>41812518> No one was in any real dangerBut they were in real terror and real pain. Have you forgotten how Sombra’s mind control works? He forces his victims to live through a constant loop of their worst fears. Everyone we see who has one of those helmets on is trapped in their own personal mental hell while their bodies are forced to perform actions they’d never willingly do otherwise.The destruction Sombra caused was real, too. Setting aside their use as weapons, the Elements of Harmony and the Tree of Harmony were national treasures for Equestria, priceless artifacts with immense historical value that Sombra destroyed because Discord thought it’d be okay to let him do so. Imagine if someone had a plan to boost your confidence and phase 1 of that plan involved completely destroying a watch your deceased dad left you. Even if that watch is replaced, would you say “well, it was for my benefit, so I don’t actually mind that this thing Dad left me to remember him by was destroyed”.
>>41812518> Discord can be redirectedAll evidence of the show suggests otherwise. In his first appearance he thought it was fine to lie to, terrorize, hurt and horrify others in order to achieve his goals. In Season 9, his entire plan revolves around a scheme to lie to, terrorize, hurt and horrify others to achieve his goals.His goals have changed; his sociopathy hasn’t. Equestria is still at his complete mercy and is still in constant danger while he’s free from stone, because he still doesn’t see anything wrong with harming other people - the Trio, yes, but also all the innocent victims of Sombra and all the innocent victims of Grogar if his Plan A had gone off without a hitch - in order to satisfy his desires.He’s still a Chaotic Evil prick and Equestria is demonstrably worse for having him in it. Even his saving Equestria from the changelings in Season 6, while I still give him credit for it’d it needs must be pointed out that he didn’t give two shits about the invasion until he learned Fluttershy was taken, and after that his actual contribution isn’t something only he could have done. Thorax knew where the Hive was and Starlight teleport too. Discord could have been replaced by someone else - say, Sunburst - and there’s no reason to think the events of TWABA would have gone any differently.
>>41812518> No one was in any real danger, he had it all under control. Oh, oops, I forgot you were talking about the Plundervines, not Sombra. Well I’mma leave that Sombra diatribe in place anyway because it’s relevant, but as to the Plundervines…you’re right, Discord was in control. He’d set up a “heads I win, tails you lose” situation. Either the Plundervines destroy the Tree and he’s free to go back to being a complete monster again without fear of elemental reprisal, or the Plundervines are destroyed and he can claim he helped wi th his vague allusions.His reaction to their destruction must be noted:>”Oh, phooey.”He was *rooting* for the vines (no pun intended). He *wanted* them to succeed at destroying the Elements and Equestria. That was his preferred outcome.
>>41812634funny
>>41812551>And months of specifically being taught friendship but only using it for evil?Cozy Glow did not practice friendship, she used ponies, she did not feel any affection for the students, she was not sincere, so she did not learn to be friends if Starlight Glimmer from the beginning of season 5 was put in the place of Cozy, then she would not have learned to be friends either and Discord from season 2 too, because for this you need practice and you will not have it if you manipulate ponies and use them without experiencing affection in order to re-educate Cozy you need to split her mask and consider her convinced as with Starlight Glimmer
>>41813619More to the point I’m personally sick of people saying she can’t be reformed because “she could be lying”. No shit she could be lying. Discord *was* outright lying, they still tried with him. And he’s a mad chaos god who can bend time and space to his will. Cozy Glow is an ordinary filly. Even if you buy into the fanfiction that she’s actually an adult in a child’s body (which is not supported by the actual show) that still leaves her as, at most, an unusually but not supernaturally intelligent pony in the body of a pegasus foal.Her entire plan in Season 8 depended utterly on no one suspecting her. The moment anyone *did* start suspecting her, it all started falling apart. She doesn’t have supernatural manipulation powers or mystical means of forcing people to act against their will. If someone plain doesn’t want to help her then we’ve seen what her plan B is: throw a tantrum like the child she is (or pretends to be if you go by fanfiction), which goes as well as any other kid throwing a tantrum does.Cozy Glow could be completely defanged by just having a rotating shift of like three royal guards around her. An ordinary prison or juvenile hall could hold her indefinitely.
>>41813619>if Starlight Glimmer from the beginning of season 5 was put in the place of Cozy, then she would not have learned to be friends eitherWrong, the school was designed to help ponies like Starlight. Her successful mentorship under Twilight was the prototype for the school which would go on to spawn the next six element bearers.
>>41813820> the school was designed to help ponies like StarlightLike Starlight, *as of the end of Season 5*. The kind of pony who knows they’re doing something wrong and wants to change.The school was not designed with ponies like Starlight, Chairmare of the Central Committee of the Equalist Party of Our Town, in mind.
>>41813827>The school was not designed with ponies like Starlight, Chairmare of the Central Committee of the Equalist Party of Our Town, in mind.Wrong, that is exactly what it was designed for as it thoroughly corrects the misguidance of her ideology.
Reminder that the elements of Harmonydidnt stone them.Which mens that it saw their potentil to be redeemed and spared them.But they got stoned by the 3 evil bad guys because they acted on personal revenge rather then the good of harmony.
>>41813836> that is exactly what it was designed forOh for fuck’s sake. The episode transcripts are available on the official wiki. You can read them for free. We shouldn’t be making mistakes like this.In either part of “School Daze” is Twilight’s tutelage of Starlight mentioned as being the basis for the school’s curriculum, nor is it mentioned as being designed to help ponies specifically like Starlight. Starlight brings up Twilight and her’s relationship in part 2…> So was I when you met me. But you showed me that when you know in your heart something is right, you stand up for it. You did that for me. Why not for this?…but it a in the context of trying to encourage Twilight to not give up on the school, not in the context of the school’s curriculum design.
>>41813868see>>41813820The school is an evolution to Twilight's character arc of mentoring Starlight, the first student. The school's teachings are based on that experience with her, therefore Starlight is the prime candidate to help. You missing these obvious themes at play in your desperation to defend Cozy makes you all the more disingenuous. Twilight does not need to spell it out for you directly in dialogue.
>>41813923>The school is an evolution to Twilight's character arc of mentoring StarlightSure, but that in no way means that it's designed to be able to handle someone like Cozy Glow, or like Starlight from S5E1, while they're actively in the middle of covering up their true natures. That's just your fanfiction.After all, if it WAS designed precisely for someone like S5E1 Starlight or for Cozy, then how did it fail Cozy?
I want to explain in detail why, in my opinion, Starlight Glimmer would not have improved since the beginning of season 5 if she had studied at the School of Friendship. Let's say Twilight defeated Starlight without letting her escape to the cave and decided to re-educate her at the School of Friendship without strict control. Firstly, Starlight Glimmer, instead of making friends, manipulated ponies and did not be friends with them, as Goat did, and also brainwashed ponies because it was easier for her. Secondly, the School of Friendship would not have changed her beliefs, because there are no subjects for studying cutie marks at the School of Friendship and everything will soon end with Starlight Glimmer deciding to make new intrigues for Twilight.
In the gameloft game there is an event where King Vorak asked Twilight to release his son from stoning but Twi refused and convinced his dead to that Tirek is to evil.Sadly she succeeded and Vorak probaly gave up on Tirek after that.Kin a sad really.Maybe Tirek could have been reformed if his connection with his family got better.Since all he wanted was his approval of his family.
>>41813858the elements don’t control what happens
>>41814019>but that in no way means that it's designed to be able to handle someone like Cozy Glow, or like StarlightAlready explained how it relates to Twilight's past experience with Starlight.>they're actively in the middle of covering up their true naturesStarlight only hid her cutie mark because of circumstances in the cult. If she is in school being a student, she is not being a cult leader, she is not hiding her true nature in any way. Her greatest desire was always to have friends so she'll be extremely receptive to the courses, the school is literally designed for her.>then how did it fail Cozy?Cozy is an irredeemable psychopath, how are you not getting this. You can try arguing if Cozy is better or worse than Discord, but that's it.
>>41814090>Cozy is an irredeemable psychopathNo, she isn't. She is completely redeemable and her psychopathy is questionable at best.
>>41814025You're just lazily saying she'll repeat everything she did in the cult for absolutely no reason at all when the school literally already serves everything she ever wanted by being a community that fosters friendships. The school will teach her the right way to become friends that defeats every misguided notion her cult is built upon such as the need to have very strict rules to maintain friendships. It dismantles her entire ideology by showing how our uniqueness allows friendships to shine. And if you don't think cutie marks aren't at all part of the learning material you're simply out of your mind. You've really just explained how autistic you are, and also how petty by trying to drag Starlight down to Cozy's level.
>>41814090>Already explained how it relates to Twilight's past experience with Starlight.Yeah, and your explanation doesn't hold water when actually examined.>Cozy is an irredeemable psychopathThe only way to know that for sure would be if someone were to try and redeem her, and no one has. Further, you've missed the entire point. If the school is specifically designed to ferret out deceptive psychos like Starlight and Cozy the way you say, then how did it fail to identify Cozy as a deceptive psycho?>>41814380>when the school literally already serves everything she ever wanted by being a community that fosters friendships.But that is not what she wants in S5E1. What she wants is to remove everyone's cutie marks and take away everyone's special talents so that everyone is equal to everyone else, because she firmly believes that cutie marks are inherently bad.>The school will teach her the right way to become friendsShe isn't interested in "the right way of becoming friends" in S5E1, she's interested in removing ponies' cutie marks.>It dismantles her entire ideology by showing how our uniqueness allows friendships to shineIt supports her entire ideology by showing how uniqueness allows others to succeed at the expense of the failures of others. Starlight was so committed to this belief that she was willing to allow Equestria to be destroyed in order to keep pushing it.>You've really just explained how autistic you areNo, you've explained how you haven't actually watched the show.
>>41812581>Daybreaker isn’t realDaybreaker is real just like ace thruster's movie>Daybreaker isn’t even Celestia’s fantasyDaybreaker is the true form just like ace thruster's giant robot>Daybreaker is Starlight Glimmer’s nightmare of what an evil Celestia might be like.Daybreaker is a reality that could'nt prevented just like ace thruster's basedness.>How S7 treats Daybreaker doesn’t matter because she’s a figment of Starlight’s imagination.Daybreaker is a fate just like ace thruster's 5th film., also starlight is already dead.
>>41814499>your explanation doesn't hold water when actually examined.All the proof is there, the show is quite clear in its themes and no contradiction or counterargument exist.>designed to ferret out deceptive psychos like Starlight and Cozy the way you say, then how did it fail to identify Cozy as a deceptive psycho?Don't put words in my mouth. The school is designed to help ponies make friends like Starlight. Not to ferret out deceptive psychos like Cozy. >believes that cutie marks are inherently bad.The reason for that is because she thinks being special can destroy friendships due to her friend abandoning her. Her entire motivation is to preserve friendships so she can have friends.>She isn't interested in "the right way of becoming friends" in S5E1She made the cult to build a community using what she thinks is the right to way of becoming friends. Cutie marks is merely a tool used to reach that goal due to her attributing that to her abandonment, in which the school will teach her is not the right way to make friends. >It supports her entire ideology by showing how uniqueness allows others to succeed at the expense of the failures of others.Now you've resorted to spout complete nonsense. What a despicable person you are, shitting up discussion with your bad faith disingenuous vomit because you're pissed your onahole got what she deserved. None of this is helping your case with Cozy and is just exposing how little you know about the show.
>>41814603>All the proof is thereNo, your fanfiction is there.>the show is quite clear in its themesIt was until Seasons 8 and 9.>and no contradiction or counterargument exist.You are wrong.>The school is designed to help ponies make friends like StarlightNo, it's design to, in Twilight's own words:> Twilight Sparkle: If we want to keep our land safe and create a friendlier tomorrow, we need to teach the Magic of Friendship far and wide.> Neighsay: A school for ponies to learn how to protect themselves.> Twilight Sparkle: Uh, more like respecting differences and communicating.Cozy was perfectly fine with differences and had no problems with communication.>Her entire motivation is to preserve friendships so she can have friends.Her entire motivation was to have a personal therapy session in the form of a brainwashed village. You are vastly underestimating how SELFISH Starlight was in her debut episodes:>They think they can come to my village and disrupt my life?MY village. Disrupt MY life. She never actually cared about other ponies, she only cared about her own pain and using others to deal with it via removing their cutie marks. The whole equalist bullshit was just that: bullshit. It was her excuse to hurt others to make herself feel better.
>>41814655>more like respecting differences and communicating.Which fixes Starlight's ideology and helps ponies like her make friends, inspired by Twilight's past experience with Starlight. Thanks for the quote though I guess.>n-no uh uh actually her motivation is something completely different its about therapy n sheeitHer motivation to make and preserve friendships is as clear as day. God forbid a severely lonely mare dare want to have friends, so selfish. The idea of a cult is to benefit all under its ideology, it's very nature is to care about others. So what if she wanted friends too, she helped others make them at the same time in her misguided way, it's why they respect her as a friend and the town perseveres even after she is gone.
>>41814750She made a cult to benefit herself, anon.
>>41814750> Which fixes Starlight's ideologyStarlight’s ideology is “take away cutie marks because I think they’re evil and it will make me feel better if no one has them”.> Her motivation to make and preserve friendships is as clear as dayHer motivation to make and preserve friendships was a LIE, and that is clear as day. When push came to shove, when Twilight was trying to present her with a way to do exactly that without removing cutie marks, she screamed at Twilight to shut up and then ran off in order to destroy the captive cutie marks out of spite. When the fellow villagers of Our Town tried to stop her, she tried to blast them apart. When still presented with a chance to change, she ran off instead, then spent the rest of the season concocting a plan not to get her equalist society back up and running, but instead to wreck Twilight’s life as a means of revenge, because she never actually gave a damn about her equalist society, she just wanted to take away cutie marks because it made her feel better. And when bluntly confronted with the fact that her actions were going to result in a worse life for everyone, she refused to believe Twilight multiple times to the point where even when confronted with a blasted, empty landscape that was future Equestria, she was still willing to risk it coming true as long as she got what she wanted, which was Twilight in pain.Look, I LIKE Starlight, but it’s made really, really clear that S5E1 Starlight’s whole philosophy was ultimately just an excuse to hurt others because hurting others made her feel better about her own life. She was a VILLAIN, not merely a misguided pony. This is the actual text of the actual show. > So what if she wanted friends tooShe didn’t want friends. She wanted subjects, just like Cozy Glow, just like Chrysalis.
Cozy Glow is a filly, anyone who believes she's an adult is retarded.
I haven’t been able to keep up with this thread, but child murder is 100% wrong and it was morally evil to end a show that was designed to teach little kids valuable life lessons about friendship like this. Anyone disagreeing with that is just crazy to me. You can make whatever in-universe arguments you want, you happen to be wrong about those as well, but from a meta perspective, this episode’s existence is pure evil.
>>41815866She wasn't murdered, only turned to stone. Are you agreeing that she is a filly?
>>41815866I mean really only two things would be needed to make the episode rise to the level of "okay".1. Twilight to take just thirty seconds of time to appeal to the Trio. If they still refuse her then, well, at least she would have tried one last time to make friends in a show called "Friendship is Magic".2. Change the last lines on the subject of them being a statue to something like, "maybe a little time to themselves will help them calm down". Close out by making it clear that the petrification is in no way intended to be permanent and that no one has given up hope.
>>41815869>She wasn't murdered, only turned to stoneWhile it is made expressly clear that no one has any intention of turning her back. She is functionally dead. Christ I HOPE she is functionally dead, anyway; the thought of her still being fully conscious while petrified would mean that you're right, they didn't actually kill her, they're just torturing her, and Chrysalis, and Tirek.
>>41815869>She wasn't murdered, only turned to stone.They did an episode in Season 8 that was an allegory for suicide where Rockhoof wanted to be turned to stone. I’m done with the in-universe shit for the time being, because it’s a fundamentally stupid universe. From a meta perspective, it WAS murder. It was as close as they could come to it on a children’s cartoon and was clearly intended as that. To deny that is to simply ignore all the evidence. The episode’s Great Evil is far worse than just “killing” a fictional character. The episode is designed to tell kids that it’d be good if someone decided to kill them. They had the characters that little girls look up to commit fatal violence against them. It’s fucking insane!!!>Are you agreeing that she is a filly?At least 90% of the audience thought she was and the staff never discussed it. Michael Vogel, the sicko who wrote this episode, typed this evil, heinous, pro-child murder script up without seeing a problem with it. That’s fucking disgusting!!!From an in-universe perspective, I still don’t think so, though. I think the person whose opinion matters most is Nicole Dubuc, who said that she was an adult. She just had the most to do with Cozy’s existence of anyone on the show. It could be a later excuse that she pulled out of her ass, but I no longer think it is. It’s 100% wrong what happened regardless. The episode still promotes child murder.
>>41815885For my part, Cozy says outright that she's a kid (S9E1 when asked by Grogar why the ponies were able to defeat them: "well I'm just a kid, so..."), and no one at any point questions this nor is the idea that she isn't a kid ever broached in the show, so she's a kid. I don't care what Dubuc said on twitter after the fact.
>>41815895Cozy also said that Starlight left her in charge of the school. Haven’t we been over this? I feel like you might be the same anon I talked to previously. It’s kind of not the point of this thread, regardless.
>>41815885I dunno, Discord was turned to stone yet he was "reformed". I like to think that twilight would have had a protege that she later tasked with reforming cozy.>Cozy is/isn't a mareThe most compelling evidence that she is indeed a filly is that she has three reflections in her eyes, only foals have that.
>>41815909>I dunno, Discord was turned to stone yet he was "reformed". I like to think that twilight would have had a protege that she later tasked with reforming cozy.You can “like to think that” if you want. It shows that you’re a more moral person than the show’s writer. It completely goes against their intent, though, to be clear.>The most compelling evidence that she is indeed a filly is that she has three reflections in her eyes, only foals have that.Doesn’t really mean much. She tricks people into thinking that she’s a filly.Random aside, in the episode “Growing Up Is Hard to Do,” Cozy was in the original pitch for unknown reasons. I have a theory that since that episode was about the CMCs magically transforming to look like adults, the original plan may’ve had an implication that Cozy had done the exact opposite as them at some point. Just a theory, because I don’t see how she would’ve fit into the episode’s story otherwise. Can’t prove it; just mentioning it as something to consider.
>>41815922I said “for unknown reasons,” to clarify, she was going to attack the CMCs using her Element of Disharmony, we know that much. What I was saying is that it’s not clear how one part of the story really would’ve connected to the other or how it would’ve ended up getting to the same lesson. So I theorize that something like that was intended. They never got very far with that version of the story, I’m bringing it up as evidence of what some of the writers, including Dubuc, may’ve been thinking about with her.
>>41815929Poopy theory
>>41815936It’d make sense.
>>41815940Why would she wish to become a filly? I mean.. I guess that would make sense if she hates responsibility or has lots of trauma, but... it seems that she would have wished to become a filly to... manipulate ponies because they'll think she's cute? Meh.
>>41815945>it seems that she would have wished to become a filly to... manipulate ponies because they'll think she's cute? Meh.Yup. That’s pretty much what Nicole Dubuc said.
>>41815949Poopy theory then
>>41815953It’s what her creator said. Most of the “evidence” against it are based on the face value words of a character whose main thing is deception.But regardless, let’s all agree that the episode still condones child murder.
>>41815899> Cozy also said that Starlight left her in charge of the schoolShe isn’t lying 100% of the time, Anon, and it’s absurd to think as much. Plus there’s the “and no one in the show ever questions thet she’s a kid nor does the show present her as anything other than a kid” part that you’re handily ignoring because you’re desperate to feel okay about killing children.>>41815909> Discord was turned to stone yet he was "reformed"But not by turning him to stone. Turning him to stone only pissed him off.
>>41816037>She isn’t lying 100% of the time, Anon, and it’s absurd to think as much. Plus there’s the “and no one in the show ever questions thet she’s a kid nor does the show present her as anything other than a kid” part that you’re handily ignoring because you’re desperate to feel okay about killing children.I’ve already made it clear that this doesn’t effect my view of the ending at all. It IS a 100% PRO-child murder ending regardless and nothing will EVER change that.The was literally actively being deceptive in the scene where she said she was a kid. She’d just gotten done pretending to not be able to say Grogar’s name, which is identical to what she did with Tirek. The line “I’m just a kid” means “I’m too stupid” in context. Cozy does NOT think she’s too stupid. She is lying in that scene no matter what.I’m against murdering defenseless adults as well, personally. No part of this justifies her punishment for me. I just find it interesting, because I want to understand her better and also because I’m wondering if the writers openly admitted that lewding her is 100% okay. The ending is pure evil regardless and actively tells real children that they deserve to die no matter how you look at it.
>>41815258And others. That's what a cult is for, anon.Compare to Trixie taking over Ponyville, now that was purely to benefit herself.
>>41814655You know, Starlight's goal made no sense. She outright says she was too afraid to make more friends because she thought cutie marks would just take them away... but she got her cutie mark.Like, wouldn't it have made more sense if she never got hers? She's good at magic but never acknowledges it as her talent because she hates talents.
>>41816176that's not how cutie marks work anon you can't just decide not to have one kek, that would be pretty funny but no not how it works.
>>41816185Ponies have to acknowledge what it is they're good at before they can get one. S1 hinted that Sweetie Belles thing was singing, but she never thought about it due to stage fright (they changed it later on, but still)
>>41816214No they don't, it's not a conscious decision, you can't just pick what cutie mark you want to have. It comes from an epiphany.
>>41816232>epiphanyThat's what I said. They have to acknowledge the talent.
>>41816236Then we agree you can't just pick and choose what talent you want like you're shopping off amazon.
>>41812575I would prefer to live insane, in blissful ignorance of reality, rather than actively suffer under a tyrant. Also, what kind of fulfilling lives would ponies be able to live when they're shown to not even be able to move without magic? The fulfilling life of a worm.>>41812581Sure, as long as you ignore the blatant subtext of the episode. I'm sure it was just a coincidence it was Daybreaker Celestia ended up meeting and not a random monster, right?>>41812611>Tirek very deliberately turns away from Twilight after taking her power and his euphoric rampage is moving away from her. In fact, doing one better, based on the fact that the other M6’s eyes are back to normal rather than drained and colorless, he even restored their magic when returning them to Twilight, something Twilight didn’t ask for.This is straight up headcanon. We're never told he turned away to spare Twilight, or that he restored any magic. M6 and Discord being able to walk after having their magic taken away has no explanation and might as well be a plot hole. Or, if you want to have an explanation, it's just as possible that Discord's nature and M6's connection to Elements made them slightly more resilient.>>41812673>His goals have changed; his sociopathy hasn’t.Well, duh. I said redirected. It would be pretty lame if Discord became a goodie two-shoes. But he did become far less destructive on average, like I said, mostly limiting himself to localized pranks. And ponies face a new villain every other month, getting taken over by Sombra for five minutes is like another Tuesday for them.>>41812696He expresses disappointment as a gag because it's something he would be interested in seeing, that's part of his nature after all. It doesn't necessarily mean he would've preferred that outcome, as he still let everything happen the way it did.
>>41813858The Elements are inconsistent. If they saw the potential, why didn't they just make them good like Luna?>>41813619Ok but Starlight and Discord made at least one genuine friend each when they were forced to. Cozy was in a similar situation and didn't.
>>41814025Starlight was just lonely and hiding behind her cult as an excuse. School of Friendship would've easily reformed her. Discord is probably someone it wouldn't do much for because there would be way too many easy targets for him to pick on, he needed the focused attention of someone extraordinarily kind like Fluttershy.
>>41815482Starlight's ideology was "equality is the way to true friendship". Her motivation was always about making and preserving friendships, originating from when her only friend abandoned her when she was a filly which she misguidedly blames it on the inequality stemming from cutie marks. The show is explicitly clear about all of this. Starlight getting revenge on Twilight for destroying everything she worked hard to built up to that point doesn't change that. She still believed in her vision and touted her ideology even after she's "mask off", it was only after seeing the dark future that her world view was shattered.I get that you really love Cozy and want to defend her, but smearing other characters so shamelessly in an attempt to make her look better is not the way.
>>41816368>Ok but Starlight and Discord made at least one genuine friend each when they were forced to. Cozy was in a similar situation and didn't.Because Cozy was never given the chance and help to do so. Discord and Starlight needed an entire episode dedicated to reforming them to actually get them to listen. No attempt was ever made with Cozy.>Starlight was just lonely and hiding behind her cult as an excuseShe willingly hurt others because some friend moved away.
>>41815482>the show was LYING to us the entire time>starlight actually wanted [headcanon]It's time you put down the keyboard, anon. You've lost the plot.
>>41803436Sombra is a villian they suceeded.Which is why no one says to reform him
>>41816434Cozy had her chances in the school of friendship and in the s8 finale.
>>41816506She was never offered anything or given any help. She literally never got a second chance.
>>41816520The school offered her everything and helped her. She made friends with everyone. She literally had a multitude of chances.
>>41816354> I would prefer to live insane, in blissful ignorance of realityYou don’t get to make that choice, Anon. Discord is the one who makes that choice for you. And he might not. He might keep you perfectly sane even as he warps everything around you.>>41816354> I'm sure it was just a coincidence it was Daybreaker Celestia ended up meeting and not a random monster, right?Anon there was nothing coincidental about it. Starlight was terrified that her swapping Celestia and Luna’s cutie marks and jobs, and seeing the two of them miserable doing the others’ jobs, led her to have a nightmare that Luna’s misery would make her go goth again, and her mind filled in the blank and figure out what Celestia would look like if she went metal. But Daybreaker was *a figment of Starlight’s imagination*, nothing more and nothing less.On top of that, Starlight doesn’t know the princesses personally and might not know the exact details around Luna and Nightmare Moon. She might genuinely believe that Luna and Nightmare Moon are a split personality, and so might believe that Celestia and her nightmare version of Celestia are as well. But that doesn’t matter. What matters is Luna, herself, and the fact that she specifically does not at any point treat herself and Nightmare Moon as different entities or personalities. If she did then her whole thing with the Tantabus wouldn’t make any sense - why would she want to torment herself for something they *she* didn’t actually do?There isn’t “subtext” here, there’s you writing fanfiction to justify other fanfiction that you’ve written or bought into. Again. Stop doing that.> We're never told he turned away to spare TwilightNo, but he takes the magic, turns away, and shows no interest in Twilight again until she’s empowered by the Rainbow and attacking him.> or that he restored any magicPonies drained of their magic by Tirek are consistently depicted with grayed-out eyes, including the M6 after Tirek took their magic. But look at the ponies’ eyes after Tirek freed them: they’re normal, except in Twilight.> But he did become far less destructive on averageNo, he became much worse on average. Prior to his reformation, he nearly destroyed the world twice over 1,000 years, or 1/500 years on average. Post-Keep Calm, he nearly destroys the world three times over about three years, 1/year on average. He has in fact become, mathematically, five hundred times worse.(Maybe slightly more or less, the three years is based on a rough estimation of FiM taking place over about 4-1/2 years, with seasons 1-3 being about 1 year and each season thereafter being about 6 months, a number based on counting the Hearth’s Warming episodes (which due to internal elements are all incompatible with each other, I.e., cannot represent the same Hearth’s Warming) plus accounting for the CMCs not notably aging).
>>41816368> If they saw the potential, why didn't they just make them good like Luna?Because they didn’t make Luna good. Luna made Luna good based on Celestia’s appeal to her when she was at her lowest
>>41816564Luna was already acting timid and remorseful before Celestia's (((appeal))).
>>41816405> I get that you really love Cozy and want to defend herI actually don’t. She is, by a wide margin, the Trio member I like the least, chiefly because the show did such a piss-poor job developing her as a character when compared to Chrysalis or Tirek. But I don’t have to like a character to be able to recognize when she’s been done dirty.> Her motivation was always about making and preserving friendshipsIf that was true then she wouldn’t have tried to blast apart the citizens of “Our Town” and would have listened to them when they said they wanted to give Twilight’s way a try.Starlight was in a mental place in S5E1 such that if she had gone to the School of Friendship, she would have focused utterly on how the special talents of its mainly-pony student body are allowing some to succeed in some areas and lack of them are making them fail or not so as well in others. She would see only the negatives, not the positives, she isn’t in the right frame of mind to do so. She’d build up her equalist cult, or try to, and when stopped she’d monomaniacally focus on getting revenge on whoever had stopped her to the point of being willing to end the world as long as it meant they suffered.>>41816487>the show was LYING to us the entire timeNo, it wasn’t. Everything I said is spelled out in the show. STARLIGHT was lying to everyone, even herself, except at the points where she became too infuriated to do so - when she became willing to destroy cutie marks out of spite for having her personal therapy session ruined, when she became willing to blast apart her cultists for dating to defy her, when she became willing to risk all of Equestria being destroyed just so that she could hurt one mare. She’s a mare with immense power, no sense of proportion, and is utterly focused on a single small, petty goal.This is the direct text of the show itself.
>>41816564Telling her to just accept friendship and ignore the root cause that initially tore up their friendship isn't an appeal.
>>41816589No, she wasn’t. She wasn’t even *conscious* when Celestia resolved to make her appeal, and Celestia beginning to make her appeal is what woke her up in the first place.
>>41816611But that’s not what Celestia did. Celestia *asked* her to set their differences aside and *asked* for Luna to come in from the cold. She did so without any blaming, any recrimination or accusation. Just, “hey Luna, it’s been a while, I miss you, please can we be sisters again?”
>>41816620"Just accept friendship, I won't apologize for banishing you or anything, I don't give a shit about any of your feelings, I just want you by my side again because I like having an inferior to lord over."
>>41816612*oh, and just to put the final nail in the “Nightmare Moon is a separate person from Luna” coffin, after Celestia makes her appeal to Luna, after Celestia makes her appeal to Luna, Luna hesitates for several seconds as she considers it and feels guilt. If Luna wasn’t Nightmare Moon then there’s be no reason for the pause, she’d accept instantly with an “of course!”, not hesitate and eventually exclaim “I’m sorry!”
>>41816635> because I like having an inferior to lord over.How the fuck do you get this out of “we were meant to rule together”?
>>41789734If you disagree with this, you’re mentally deranged and don’t deserve forgiveness.
>>41809857What happened to the others?
So the consensus is nkw that the Finale sucks and the Trio should have been redeemed?Now i feel less bad tobwhat happenes to them in Sunnys timeline
>>41816532A school is hardly a substitute for rehabilitation, especially when they did not know her true nature at the time. Contrast this with the sheer amount of chances Discord got despite him, time and time, betraying his friends, or how Starlight was actively lying to those villagers who trusted her.
>>41816663Disgusting.
>>41816608>If that was true then she wouldn’t have tried to blast apart the citizens of “Our Town”Not blast them apart, but send them back to town or freeze them temporarily harmlessly so she can escape.>and would have listened to them when they said they wanted to give Twilight’s way a try.Twilight didn't prove her ideology wrong until the finale, she only exposed the lie about her cutie mark, and she's understandably angry all her hard work building up the cult got demolished in a second by a random group of ponies.>if she had gone to the School of Friendship, she would have focused utterly on how the special talents of its mainly-pony student body are allowing some to succeed in some areas and lack of them are making them fail or not so as well in others.She would have focused on how no one is leaving her or each other because of those differences thereby showing her how differences and friendship are actually compatible. The school of friendship is literally catered to serve ponies like her.>was lying to everyoneOnly about her cutie mark.>destroy cutie marksYou can't destroy cutie marks.>risk all of Equestria being destroyedWas never her intention and that realization is what got her to admit she was wrong, even going through stages of grief in the process. She's a damaged mare that desperately wants friends with the desire to help make the world a better place for others.
>>41816559>You don’t get to make that choice, Anon. Discord is the one who makes that choice for you.Eh, still preferable over tyranny or getting burned alive.>why would she want to torment herself for something they *she* didn’t actually do?Because she let the darkness into her heart with her envy and then lost control. Would make sense.>She might genuinely believe that Luna and Nightmare Moon are a split personality, and so might believe that Celestia and her nightmare version of Celestia are as well.Maybe, but she's not presented as an unreliable narrator or explicitly refuted in that belief.>No, but he takes the magic, turns away, and shows no interest in Twilight againFor any number of reasons, the most intuitive for the viewer is him being on a power trip. No subtext of potentially sparing Twilight there, if anything him transforming is presented as the maximum-stakes scenario.>Ponies drained of their magic by Tirek are consistently depicted with grayed-out eyes, including the M6 after Tirek took their magic.Again, no explanation for this, but if we were to come up with one, it doesn't have to involve Tirek's decision-making. Maybe Twilight's feat of friendship gave them all hope.>twice over 1,000 years, or 1/500 years on average.That's disingenous because he spent most of those 1000 years being in stone. If he wasn't in stone for these 1000 years, he would be in the process of warping the world for every single day of those years. Post-reformation Discord wouldn't; ergo, he's better.
>>41816762> but send them back to town or freeze them temporarily harmlessly so she can escape.Pure headcanon. Pic is not the look of a mare interested in being harmless.> and she's understandably angry“Angry” would excuse a tantrum and yelling and going if to sulk until she calms down. Being “angry” doesn’t justify fr to ng to spitefully destroy the ponies’ cutie marks, nor trying to blast alert her former cultists, nor spending the next several months concocting a plan designed specifically to ruin one mare’s life. Season 5 Starlight is basicaly the living embodiment of spite.> You can't destroy cutie marks.Well Starlight directly stated an intention to try. I quoted it upthread, you illiterate mongoloid.>Was never her intention and that realization is what got her to admit she was wrongNo, it wasn’t. When confronted with the blasted landscape her reaction is essentially “sucks to suck, gonna destroy the scroll anyway”, and when Twilight tries to tell her that it’ll mean all of Equestria being destroyed Starlight just tells her she thinks Twilight is lying to save her hide. She flat refuses to believe that Twilight’s friendship could possibly be that important because Starlight DOESN’T VALUE FRIENDSHIPS at that point. What she values is making herself feel better for wrongs that have been committed against her. She is pure spite in a mare-shaped bodysuit.
>>41816802> but if we were to come up with one, it doesn't have to involve Tirek's decision-making. Perhaps not, but it’s certainly in-keeping with the character he displays across his multiple appearances.> Post-reformation Discord wouldn'tExcept…he is. He’s bringing villains back from the dead, making ponies terrified for their safety, using people as disposable minions via physical and verbal abuse and gaslighting, killing people to make a point, and destroying national treasures, all because it suits his whims.
>>41816839>Perhaps not, but it’s certainly in-keeping with the character he displays across his multiple appearances.Not really. The 1.5 acts of "honor" he has are towards his allies, not his enemies, and even then there's a chance S4 Tirek would think of this kind of behavior as stupid. Also all those acts in later seasons happen when he's in a weaker state and has a use for others.>He’s bringing villains back from the dead, making ponies terrified for their safety, using people as disposable minions via physical and verbal abuse and gaslightingAll very brief and reversible, doesn't affect the status quo of Equestria or wasn't meant to. Also the latter two apply to Tirek.>killing people to make a point,When deserved either way.>and destroying national treasuresI don't recall that.
>>41816809>Pic is not the look of a mare interested in being harmless.She just had all her hard work building up a community meant to foster friendships erased by random ponies, of course she looks mad, but she was in no way going to hurt them, it was obviously going to be a harmless spell. Her anger is mainly fixated on Twilight anyway as the one who orchestrated her ousting.>Well Starlight directly stated an intention to try.No, she didn't. Read carefully.>No, it wasn’t.As explained earlier she was in denial. Such revelations aren't so easy to accept for any kind of ideologue which often leads to going through stages of grief to cope. It's what makes her turn around so realistic. Starlight is a cripplingly lonely mare who just wanted to make the world a friendlier place, she had good intentions but was simply misguided in her ideology.
>>41816809>refuses to believe that Twilight’s friendship could possibly be that importantBecause she didn't think a friendship based on being special and unique to one another can lead to a good outcome. Friendship is the one thing she values most.
Sorry, but that's how a matriarchy works. Had Cozy Glow been a colt, he would've just been a dumb boy who didn't know any better and got a slap on the hoof, but since Cozy Glow was the dominant ruling gender in the pony world, she should've known better and will reap the full extent of her crimes.
>>41816864> The 1.5 acts of "honor" he has are towards his allies, not his enemiesOnly because you’re choosing to ignore all the ones he has towards his enemies because it doesn’t fit your fan-fiction version of Tirek.> All very brief and reversibleHoly shit you absolute sociopath. How “reversible” it is doesn’t change that he’s terrifying people around him and making them fear for their lives. If someone loaded a bullet into a revolver, aimed it at you, and started pulling the trigger, would you be okay with his actions afterwards even if you learned the bullet was a blank?> When deserved either way.No, it isn’t. No one deserves to be brought back from the dead just so that the person who did so can then orchestrate your death again just so that he can scare others into line.> I don't recall that.The Elements and the Tree, you mongoloid. Sombra destroyed them but only because Discord brought him back and set him loose. Discord shared responsibility for their destruction. That they could be replaced later doesn’t change that artifacts of priceless historical value to Equestria are now gone, forever.>>41816906> but she was in no way going to hurt them, it was obviously going to be a harmless spellAnd what is this “obviousness” based on? She was perfectly fine with subjecting people to the pain of isolation, starvation, dehydration and brainwashing even before her cult turned on her. Afterwards when fighting Twilight in the season finale she was perfectly fine with trapping Twilight and Spike in a crystal and letting them fall to their doom.> No, she didn't. Read carefully.“They think they can come to my village and disrupt my life? Let's see how they like spending the rest of their lives without their precious cutie marks!”Why don’t you walk me through what you think she was gonna try and do.> As explained earlier she was in denialHow in denial or not she was in doesn’t enter into it. She had been bluntly confronted with the possibility that her choices might destroy Equestria and her reaction was “sucks to suck!” and then proceeding to start destroying the scroll.> she had good intentionsNo, she did not. She just wanted to have a personal therapy session and make others hurt the way she was hurting. She even admits as much in “The Crystalling Part 2” when she admits her motivation was bitterness and hate, not altruism.
>>41817025>pain of isolation, starvation, dehydration and brainwashingThey lived together in a community where they often worked together to accomplish tasks and had plenty of food and water even if the food wasn't particularly delicious. Brainwashing as a punishment is something they're all complicit in as a self-policed commune. She made a cult that's meant to help others including herself, that's what cults are for. The crystal prison is obviously harmless and she knew Twilight is more than powerful enough to break out of it, it's weak enough for even Starlight to break out of.>Why don’t you walk me through what you think she was gonna try and do.Keep them locked in jars and away from the m6. It's that simple. See you've been letting your imagination run wild this entire time because you have your own fanfiction about what you want Starlight to be even when the show contradicts you at every turn.>How in denial or not she was in doesn’t enter into it.It's the biggest factor that scene in portraying. She wanted to believe Twilight was lying to her or using an illusion to trick her, because she was in denial. She never wanted to destroy the scroll or else the scroll would have been destroyed, it's a thin piece of paper. Her struggle to rip it represented her coming to terms with reality and her debunked ideology. It's a beautiful scene, it's sad all of that went over your head.>No, she did not.She did. Starlight wanted to help make friends and preserve friendships, she wanted to help others not face the same pain she had felt. She created a community for others who were already feeling the same pain as her, to help give everyone the friendships they desire. It's why her redemption is all about figuring out what makes a good leader, she always had good intentions but just went about it the wrong way.
>>41817352I agree.
>>41817205Christ as much as people simp for Cozy Glow you have got to be the biggest Glimmernigger that has ever walked the face of the planet. And that’s saying something since, as I note previously, I actually do like Starlight, both in Season 5 as a villain and through the rest of the series as a reforming villain who keeps running into the problem of resorting to villainous actions to try to achieve good ends.> Brainwashing as a punishment is something they're all complicit inYes, it is, and part of that brainwashing was leaving the ponies undergoing it in a small confined space without food or adequate water. I’m not talking about Our Town’s general food quality, you simp, I’m talking about Starlight specifically already being comfortable with outright torturing ponies with pain in order to get them to conform to her worldview, and that’s when everything is going to plan for her. Yet you’re claiming when her entire cult has fallen apart and turned on her she’s suddenly NOT going to be okay with hurting people?> Keep them locked in jars and away from the m6.That is not how her intentions are framed, and you know it. Whether or not their destruction is possible is irrelevant, Starlight clearly framed as intending to *try*. And when prevented, she’s instead willing to turn that destructive impulse into her former followers. The blast she fires is in no way depicted as something that would have tickled.> She never wanted to destroy the scroll or else the scroll would have been destroyedOr she wanted to draw out its destruction to make Twilight suffer, which would once again be in-character for her at this point because her entire plan was specifically to make Twilight suffer. She never even broaches the idea of, for example, stopping Twilight’s friendships so that she won’t be around to wreck Our Town - no, this whole scheme involves Starlight breaking the laws of time and space just so that she can fuck with Twilight specifically. She’s consumed by a need to HURT Twilight. So it’s completely believable that she’d draw out tearing the scroll just because it would make Twilight suffer more.> Starlight wanted to help make friends and preserve friendshipsNo, it’s not, and like I said she plainly admits as much in “The Crystalling Part 2” where she unambiguously states to Sunburst that she was just consumed by bitterness and hate. You are going against the actual stated reason of the character herself at a time when she has no reason to be lying.
the reason why cozy glow could have been fixed is obvious i decided to express my opinion in detail once again let's analyze cozy glow's beliefs as for me she's not crazy because then she would have been sent to a mental hospital and not to tartarus for the entire series we were not told her backstory so we don't know her motivation why she wants power but i think it's simple she has teenage nihilism and maximalism and she just wants power and she's not as smart and strong as it might seem ponies are friendlier in mind than people so it was easier for her and they trusted her because of her appearance but when her method doesn't work she finds it difficult to control her emotions at the school of friendship she obviously couldn't find friends because she didn't want to and secondly she couldn't show her real face and she is forced to wear a good girl mask although in fact she is a toxic teenager with high intelligence but when she met tyrac and her good girl image didn't work she decides to rip off the mask and now she freely shares her emotions and becomes closer to her friends and she enjoyed it she no longer wanted her manipulated if Twilight learned Cozy Glow's backstory and learned why she wants power Twilight could have re-educated Cozy Glow most likely Twilight would have become Cozy Glow's first friend because she is smart Twilight could have asked Cozy Glow why she needs power Cozy Glow thought carefully and came to the conclusion that friendship would bring her more pleasure than power for the sake of power she remembered her experience with Tirak and Chrysalis and decided that it was better to find friends and she did not want to sit in stone
All they had to do was reform her.
>>41817583All they had to do was *try*. I’m not even necessarily opposed to the idea of Cozy being genuinely irredeemable; what sets me off is that in a show called “Friendship is Magic”, in its big finale, no one even tried to make a friend.
>>41817524>without food or adequate water.Calm your tits, nothing suggests they're being starved or malnourished. They're in a room listening to propaganda, that's all.>torturing ponies with painYou overdramatic child. They're just listening to a speaker play sound bites. Any funny cartoon reactions are just that, gags.>not going to be okay with hurting people?Never was at any point.>That is not how her intentions are framedIt is so, cutie marks can't be destroyed. Why would the show imply their souls can be destroyed forever, this is a light-hearted kid's show not World of Warcraft. The spell she uses very well can tickle, lasers trigger spell effects all the time like the crystal prison. Lasers don't mean star wars blaster, keep your imagination in check.>she wanted to draw out its destruction to make Twilight sufferKeep your sadism fantasies out of this. She is in emotional distress going through all the stages of grief and clearly not enjoying the situation.>bitterness and hateShe doesn't mention hate you disingenuous bastard. A super quick recap of events to catch-up people who never watched s5 isn't going to tell the whole story by a long shot, she doesn't even mention the cult. But we know what the subtext is because we were already told of her motivations in greater detail in her previous episodes.>I actually do like StarlightNo, you don't if this is how you think of her. It's utter disrespect to her character borne from your sick edgy fantasies. The way you slander her in the worst possible light in every single aspect is psychopathic. It's so funny how you pretend to act all moralistic and holier than thou when simping for Cozy but then turn around and shit out this disgusting abusive filth that I can only surmise is your fetish. Re-evaluate yourself.
>>41817727>Calm your tits, nothing suggests they're being starved or malnourishedLiterally everything about the scene does. It's framed as a typical cult brainwashing session. Denial of food and water is a basic part of that. Frankly given how cultish Our Town is we should count herself lucky that Starlight wasn't depicted with a personal herd of colts and fillies living in her house as her "acolytes".>Why would the show imply their souls can be destroyed foreverCutie marks aren't souls, unless you mean to imply that changelings, griffons, hippogriffs, donkeys, etc., don't have souls.>Keep your sadism fantasies out of this.Anon, Starlight outright states that her purpose in warping time and space was to make Twilight suffer.>But we know what the subtext is because we were already told of her motivations in greater detail in her previous episodes.Yeah there's no "subtext", you simping mongoloid. She is extremely plain that her plan was to take away cutie marks because it made HER feel better, and then when Twilight and her friends took that away from her she decided to make Twilight suffer by taking her friends away, and she states she's literally willing to fight Twilight for the rest of eternity as long as it means Twilight suffers.>The way you slander her in the worst possible lightAnon? She outright admits that she was completely and utterly evil in Season 5. Those are her exact words in "No Second Prances".>It's so funny how you pretend to act all moralistic and holier than thou when simping for CozyI haven't simped for Cozy once in this thread. All I've pointed out with her is that it's wrong to kill children, that she deserved no less an effort than Discord, and that nothing in the show suggests she isn't a kid, so she's a kid.
>>41817779>It's framed as a typical cult brainwashing session.No, it's not, it's a light-hearted kid's show in a fantasy setting about magical colorful horses. Everyone is healthy.>Cutie marks aren't soulsI know, I wasn't being literal as a joke. Oh right, you're an autist.>to make Twilight sufferNope, she states she just wanted to make Twilight lose her friends, cutie marks for cutie marks, that's all.>there's no "subtext"Yes there is, stories don't need to spell everything out for you. Her motivations were clearly expressed for the creation of her cult, cults which are made to help everyone including herself.>admits that she was completely and utterly evilA bit of sarcasm by a sarcastic and snarky pony. It's not meant to be taken literally, your autism is showing again.>I haven't simped for Cozy onceYou've been sucking her cock grandstanding on your high horse when you're just as psychopathic as the filly.
>>41817843>when you're just as psychopathicYeah thinking that killing children is wrong isn't traditionally seen as a sign of psychopathy.>it's a light-hearted kid's showWas it? Because try and remember that it's also a show in which a dead person was brought back to life just so that his death - which we see involves the flesh beginning to be stripped from his body, see pic - could be orchestrated by his resurrector in order to frighten people whom he intended to use as disposable minions into line.
>>41817843>Nope, she states she just wanted to make Twilight lose her friends, cutie marks for cutie marks, that's all.Right, and that won't cause Twilight any kind of suffering or anguish at all.
>>41817938Sombra is not a creature of flesh, he is a being of shadow.
>>41817944It will, she is repaying the favor but that's as far as it goes.
>>41817969Well the visual sure looks like he’s being flensed. But sure, explain to the child that even though visually it LOOKS like his flesh is peeling from his body, all there actually happening is he’s simply being vaporized, all according to Discord’s plan to frighten the other three villains in line so they’ll be more subservient minions. Because Discord raised Sombra from the dead only to then orchestrate his death. Ha ha ha so lighthearted a show.
>>41817938>Yeah thinking that killing children is wrong isn't traditionally seen as a sign of psychopathy.Really crazy discussion to be having with a show called “My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic,” huh? Seriously, writers, I hope your lives are sad enough that you’re actually reading this, so I can once again reiterate: Fuck you!Also, anon, I’m not sure if you’re the one that I was arguing about Cozy’s age with, but I want to be clear that I still agree. The “killing children” thing is changed zero percent from this view, because nearly everyone is going to assume she’s a kid, including KIDS. So the target demo WILL see that the show is telling them that they deserve to die. The “lesson” of the episode is as vomit inducingly evil regardless. I also have strong suspicions that the CHARACTERS never learned that she’s not really a kid. The “heroes” of the show are 100% willing to murder children from all the evidence we have.So anyway, we may disagree on that one thing, but please understand, it isn’t a substantive disagreement in what truly matters—murdering children will ALWAYS be wrong. Fuck anyone who disagrees!>>41817969I mean, you can literally see flesh. The fact that the idiots who worked on Season 9 had no memory of the earlier seasons doesn’t really change what happened within the context of the season itself.
>>41818682>I mean, you can literally see flesh. The fact that the idiots who worked on Season 9 had no memory of the earlier seasons doesn’t really change what happened within the context of the season itself....No he already was made of flesh in Season 3, Episode 2 "The Crystal Empire, Part 2". Fuck the writers of 3.2 - they forgor that they have written him as a being of shadows just one episode earlier in 3.1
>>41818856That’s not “forgetting”, that’s him having recovered enough power that he can once again take physical form. He was supposed to be a Sauron analogue, remember.
Fun Fact:Despite the fact that Chrysalis doesnt have much against Twilight (only really starlight). She still goes out of her way to make fun of Twi to have fun with these 2.When you think about it its a strong sign of her longing for friendship and company within that group.
>>41818985I think there was a typo for the show for all of Season 9. It was meant to be called “Friendship Isn’t Magic.” It makes more sense when you think about it that way.
>>41817025>Only because you’re choosing to ignore all the ones he has towards his enemies because it doesn’t fit your fan-fiction version of Tirek.Because those instances are not explicitly framed as honorable and you just keep interpreting them as such because Tirek could have hypothetically done something worse. There are plenty of worse things Discord could have hypothetically done to M6 in S2, yet didn't. I suppose that means Discord is super honorable.>If someone loaded a bullet into a revolver, aimed it at you, and started pulling the trigger, would you be okay with his actions afterwards even if you learned the bullet was a blank?That's expected behavior from this kind of character. He just revels in mischief and pranks, that's his nature. Most ponies aren't affected by this, and he usually gets some sort of karmic punishment if he goes a little too far. At least he doesn't come up with arbitrary hypocritial codes of honor, eh?>No one deserves to be brought back from the dead just so that the person who did so can then orchestrate your death again just so that he can scare others into line.Eh, seeing how people don't simp for Sombra as much as they do for the trio, most of the fandom seems to think he deserved it.>artifacts of priceless historical valueIt's strange that you refer to them as only this and not, you know, functional weapons to be used against enemies of Equestria. But Discord probably should know better than most that Harmony cannot be destroyed that easily. If he couldn't do it for good, someone weaker like Sombra definitely can't.
>>41818985There’s a reason I keep referring to her as a “lonely woman”. Even back in Season 8 as she’s creating the Mean 6 we see signs of her being incredibly lonely, responding to photographs of the M6 as though they had actually asked her questions (look at how she perks up before saying “why copies, Rarity?”, or her eyes go huge as she exclaims “of course I haven’t forgotten Starlight Glimmer!”)By the time we first see her in Season 9, she’s been reduced to sitting in the woods with logs that she’s drawn the faces of changelings onto, holding conversations with them as though she could actually hear them talking.
>>41819005And then she finally made two great friends, but the writers said “Fuck you, here’s rape and death!!!”
Fuck you, shitty writers!
>>41819001> most of the fandom seems to think he deserved it.No. Because at the time of his death we believed Grogar to be a legitimate character in his own right, and not just Discord (which is a giant FU from the writers in its own right). Grogar was presented as an absolute monster, so there was no question that what he did to Sombra was wrong but no outrage about it either because we were sure Grogar would get his comeuppance in the end anyway.By the time “The Ending of the End” rolled around were presented with such shit writing and so much of a moral vacuum in the reveal of Discord just wearing a Grogar suit and how he handled the Trio coupled with him receiving no punishment at all for that, that Sombra tends to just get lost in the shuffle.
>>41819001> Because those instances are not explicitly framed as honorableThey don’t need to be “framed” as honorable. They’re just plain honorable. Treating fairly with people you negotiate with is honorable.
>>41819090Tirek doesn’t treat fairly with Twilight. He actually exceeds the letter of his agreement with her when he not only returns her friends, but restores their magic (except Discord’s), something Twilight didn’t ask for and Tirek in no way had to do.
>>41819101Did he gave their magic back?
>>41819113I don't think Faust new what her thing was either.
Mean 6 are so cool. If only we got to spend mroe time with them..actually its intereting that the tree f harmony killed them but not Chrissy.Then again they showed personality traits completly opposite from the harmony.Although Twi got killed as well and idk what her thing was.Honestly she should have been alive for longer that would have been fun.Although i dislike how she could solo Chrissy like that.Like why not kill her sooner?
>>41819115Victims of Tirek’s power drain are always shown with grayed-out eyes. Immediately before being released we see that Fluttershy’s eyes are grayed out; immediately afterwards, they’re back to normal, as are the rest of the M6’s, save Twilight.before being given Scorpan’s amulet by Discord who was clearly shown with gray eyes.The only logical explanation is that Tirek restored their magic, as any other explanation (“their connection to the elements healed them!”) strains credulity that much (their magic just so happened to be inexplicably restored at the exact second that Tirek released them, in spite of the fact that at this point in time th e magic of the Elements is expressly sealed away in the box?)
>>41819134He would've grown smaller if he gave them back their magic. It's just one of those "injury or blemish that disappears on the next frame" type of things.
>>41819134If this is true - and the on-screen evidence suggests that it is - then this would mean that Tirek did something nice for Twilight simply because he could. It took Discord six seasons before he would do the same.
>>41819162> He would've grown smaller if he gave them back their magicDoubtful. By this point he has the magic of literally everypony in Equestria save the alicorns. That’s at minimum thousands upon thousands of ponies, possibly millions of them (the official map of Equestria makes it look like a continent that roughly corresponds to North America in shape and size, and even in 1800 the US alone had 5 million people). Restoring the magic of just five ponies is unlikely to shrink him at that point.
>>41819162>It's just one of those "injury or blemish that disappears on the next frame" type of things.That would explain making the mistake for a few frames, not them being consistently shown without the faded eyes for the rest of the scene, and especially not when attention is drawn to Twilight’s own faded eyes and their subsequent restoration.No, Tirek clearly just threw in a little something extra for Twilight as a show of appreciation. It’s consistent with his characterization across the rest of the show as a fairly honorable warrior/sorcerer.
>>41819134You're reading too much into it. The animators flipflopped between gray and normal eyes. Then if we take a took at Twilight, she recovers normal eyes when Discord puts the necklace on her so regaining their eyes is more of a symbolism for hope and not a physical change in their bodies.
>>41819208> The animators flipflopped between gray and normal eyesNo, they didn’t. You’re positing a single animation still where Dash’s and Fluttershy’s eyes appear faded while they move, but in the actual scene their eyes are overall shown as fully colored by the time they’re standing next to Twilight - that would be the frame or two of animation error that I mentioned. When first released from the bubble we get an extremely clear shot of Fluttershy’s face with her eyes back to normal. And of course here we can clearly see that everyone except Twilight has normal eyes.
>>41819208> You're reading too much into it.No, you’re refusing to acknowledge the obvious. Tirek did something nice for Twilight simply because he could, which fits in well with his overall personality as someone who is ruthless but never cruel, who honors the letter and the spirit of his bargains as long as he doesn’t suspect he might be betrayed, who’s perfectly fine to work with others as equals and who has even shown signs of mercy/compassion at other points (such as checking on the baffled bird in “Summer Sun Set-Back” and helping it fly away).Sorry. I know he looks like Satan and I know that he’s inspired by the thoroughly reprehensible Lord Tirac from G1, but Tirek is actually not terrible. Very evil, yes, but once you get past that an okay guy.
>>41819208>symbolism for hopeWhich tracks with Twilight's friends getting their eyes back when they're released, their freedom gave them hope.
THIS IS THE WORST FUCKING SCENE IN TELEVISION HISTORY AND EVERYONE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT SHOULD BE PUBLICLY SHAMED FOR THEIR EVIL PRO-CHILD MURDER AGENDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FUCK THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>41819233I agree.Why should the animators see a frame where characters have greyed out eyes.But also make colored ones if not on purpose?It makes no sense.
>>41819253Dodnt tirek not honor grogar and decided to backstab him?
>>41819134>The only logical explanation is that Tirek restored their magicWithout the poopy ponies regaining their Cutie Marks as well? How is that possible?
And keep in mind Grogar gave him a hatch of power to give him back some muscles. But Tirek still betrayed him.Also didnt he say "We can go back to destroy each other."I thought he doesnt care for violence.Why does he suggest to harm each other?
>>41819268Really stretching here, my man, seeing as the M6 are not framed as actually having a single ounce of hope at this point, only concern for Twilight. More to the point, up to this point the eye-flash had been a symbol related to the M6’s element. Applejack witnesses honesty and her eyes flash, Pinkie laughter and her eyes flash, etc. Twilight’s eyes flashing and being restored from an act of Friendship from Discord makes sense, but it in no way actually tracks with on-screen events that this would imply “hope”. You’re making that up whole-cloth to have an excuse to not give credit to where credit is actually due.Why are you so emotionally invested in the idea of Tirek not being capable of doing a single nice thing?
>>41819119Chrissy and Tirek got spared by the tree like 2 times by now.Also if Twi can solo Chrissy why doesnt she just go and kill her instead of wanting to have the elements first?
>>41819208Yup, Tirek had nothing to do with them restoring their eyes. This moment with Twilight proves that beyond a shadow of doubt.
Who cares about this? Tirek not giving them their powers back doesn’t make it okay to murder children!
>>41819295Grogar had physically and verbally abused him and threatened his life on multiple occasions. He’d also implied that Sombra would be part of their gig after he failed but when Sombra was destroyed, Grogar didn’t bring him back from the dead as he’d previously demonstrated himself capable of doing (and if the rainbow laser had somehow made that impossible, he didn’t say as much). Grogar had made it clear that Tirek was a minion, not an equal partner. He’s been untrustworthy and abrasive and gicen Tirek every reason to think that he’d be disposed of once he was no longer of use.> Without the poopy ponies regaining their Cutie Marks as well? How is that possible?No idea. I’m not a magician. Perhaps he only partially restored their magic (he is shown to be able to only take portions rather than the whole thing later in S9). But it makes a fair bit more sense than “they regained hope”, which is wholly unsuggested in the text and not depicted as how the whole eye-flash thing works.
Chrysalis also keeps her trait of Bargains by the way.As she gives back Spike after Twilight surrenders.
>>41819320Hey, you like fighting for you little filly.So let us figh for our lord!
>>41819301> I thought he doesnt care for violenceI didn’t say “violence”, I said “sadism”. He doesn’t hurt people simply because he’s capable of hurting people. Tirek’s evil acts are always done for a definitive purpose, not simply to flex his evil muscles.
I seriously hate the Season 9 writers. They thought up the worst story imaginable because they wanted to ruin the show we all loved. It was done out of pure spite. There’s no other explanation. If they actually thought it was good, they should be institutionalized.
>>41819336>Perhaps he only partially restored their magicHow kind of him...
>>41819337If you want a sign of how bad the S9 writers were, the rough draft outline shows that they intended to gice Cheysalis the anti-element of Betrayal, even though:1) The only person Chrysalis ever betrays is Grogar, and see >>41819336 for why that hardly even counts (and certainly wouldn’t at the time of her being given said anti-element); and2) in fact if any Element could be used to describe her, it’s *Loyalty*. She never once abuses a changeling and in fact is regularly indulgent towards them, and she only starts getting violent with the Mean 6 *after* their actions keep continuously screwing up her plans *plus* it needs must be remembered that she’s spent months in lonely isolation at this point.
>>41819337I like how Tirekfag fought to defend his Lord with (he spared Twi in season 4) but in this their are gonna kill them.Also no she only keeps their part of the bargain because she knows their are gonna kill her seconds later.So your plan to make Chrysalis reedemable failed anon!
>>41819360If thats the standard for Loyalty then why Chrissy and not Tirek huh?In fact what about Sombra?He also spared Flurryheart after cadeance and shining armor surrendered so doesnt that mean that he is redeemabe as well?Your logic is to basic and can be sued by everyone
>>41819119Actually why does mean Twi get destroyed anyway?Wasnt her whole stick to guide friendship and being the leader of that group?By all MEANs she does exactly that.She even refers to "we" when talking about betraying chrysalis and being unstoppable so she does care for her other mean version friends.Isnt that what her element is supposed to represent?
>>41819360I think Tirek's Elements would have been Greed? I think switching Tirek and Chrysalis' Elements would probably work better. So Betrayal for Tirek and Greed for Chrysalis.
>>41819366> If thats the standard for Loyalty then why Chrissy and not Tirek huh?Personally I’d give Tirek Honesty given how much he clearly values forthrightness and the fact that I’m not sure if he ever technically tells a lie once in the whole show. Cozy Glow gets Magic/Friednship seeing as she genuinely wants friends, she just has a twisted view of what friendship is.> In fact what about Sombra?S3 Sombra has no personality so it’s impossible to tell what Element most suits him, while S9 Sombra demonstrates himself to be almost as thoroughly opposed to the Elements’ virtues as Discord. I can’t reasonably match him up to any of them.> He also spared Flurryheart after cadeance and shining armor surrendered so doesnt that mean that he is redeemabe as well?Maybe. We just don’t hang out with him enough to know for sure. You have to understand. Im not oppose to irredeemable villains. What I’m opposed to is the heroes not making a single effort to try to get through to them even when it would cost them literally nothing but thirty seconds of their time. And I’m in specific pissed off about the handling of the Trio because they were actually set up for a believable redemption arc, but then we reached the conclusion of the show and no one bothers to try.
>>41819384shes so mean..
I wonder what it was that made them decide they wanted to ruin the show forever. You think they were that pissed at Hasbro for cancelling it? You had nine fucking seasons! That’s plenty. You should really be counting your blessings. Most shows would kill to run that long. And sure, they could’ve asked you to do G5, but I believe it may’ve been that they wanted an American company to do it? Not 100% sure. Regardless, there’s no need to throw a temper tantrum over it! These things happen. You should just be happy that another group of people is getting work. It’s not like you lost your jobs. DHX has continued to produce new shows to this day. That Strawberry Shortcake show even looks very similar, so clearly a lot of the same people are working it. I bet DHX didn’t have to fire a single person!But I guess it was the writers themselves, many of whom were freelance. And, in fact, many of whom were American. If Hasbro had been interested, they theoretically could’ve had you be part of G5. I mean, they got Megan McCarthy. So if you’d just played your cards right, who knows? Maybe you could’ve been hired. Unfortunately, you had to go an intentionally deliver the worst ending imaginable so now there’s no way anyone would EVER hire you!!! That’s YOUR fault! It’s not Hasbro’s, and it wasn’t just because they ended their deal with DHX, it was because you celebrated child murder, you freaks!!! What were you so mad about?!I really hope that one day your garbage is officially retconned for being too fucking shitty to possibly be considered canon. Fuck every single one of you!!! (If any of you saw the problems with it and tried to prevent it, then okay, I retract some of my anger. I still think you should’ve made an official statement by now condemning it, but whatever.)
Chrysalis isnt really greedy tho...the only things resembly is just her food in a wayso that doesnt care
Tirek lied to chrysalis that she doesnt want to steal her magic while they were eating cupcakes in Grogars lair so honesty isnt really Tireks thing.Does Chrysalis ever lie?
>>41819404pls give a (you) next time :( ... she's pretty greedy for power so that counts right?
The so-called “Evil” Three are actually the good guys of the story. They literally didn’t do a single thing wrong and were 100% justified in everything.
>>41819417She's a changeling Anon, that's kind of their thing
>>41819426That’s called method acting.
>>41819402They should have made Mean Twi the Final Boss of FIM considering she uses the power of friendship to try and be above all else.So much potential they just threw out!
>>41819433Are you aware that this was the original plan? Because it was. It wasn’t going to be in clone form, though, Twilight was going to become that.
>>41819435>Twilight was going to become that.Really brother?
Cozyfag probaly lvoes reading the comics where everything goes to shit.Consiering how much she hates Twi
>>41819433She's the Final Boss of Chrysalis bussy.
>>41819437Yup. In the original draft, the other villains were going to turn on “Grogar” (Discord) and redeem themselves. At that point he corrupted Twilight and everyone would have to work together to stop her. (Discord’s Grogar thing was done so that he could avoid dying, because all the harmony in Equestria was too much for him to survive in.)>>41819439Which comics specifically do you mean? If you mean the G5 ones where we get some flashbacks, I do love that that happened to the characters. I really want to see Cozy Glow take her revenge, though!!!
>>41819403> I wonder what it was that made them decide they wanted to ruin the show forever. You think they were that pissed at Hasbro for cancelling it?I don’t think it was anger at Hasbro. I think they were pissed off at the fandom. A lot of their decisions make sense if you put them in the context of writers who, for example, were bitter about the school not going over well or people disliking the S6 or Starlight Glimmer or people outraged at Cozy being put in a cage in Hell.Consider the Grogar decision, for example. Bringing in Grogar as opposed to making a new villain can only be for one purpose: to hype up people who actually watched G1 and remembered how kickass Grogar was in his four-part story (“no, I have YOU surrounded!”). Pulling the rug out from under those people and revealing that psych, no, it’s just Discord nearly destroying Equestria again? That it was never really Grogar?Haber and company *had* to know that would piss people off.
>>41819484Discord is like the worst character.Also how the fuck couldnt they just use the bel again after the rainbow blasted them?It makes no sense.Hell Tirek could have used his powers to drain magic.He doesnt even need the bell.Discord also gets like no punishment.Like at least take away his chaos magic so he doesnt do any shit later.But of course he can still do evil things as much as he desires.I hate this show
>>41819403>>41819484You're projecting what you want them to believe. There's no grand conspiracy just because this small corner of the internet hated everything post-Faust. Most fans love the show and that's who they were writing for, not you two.
Lmao what a cope.Almost everyone thinks the later sesons are trash.
>>41819507>Also how the fuck couldnt they just use the bel again after the rainbow blasted them?It was blasted away from their grip by the rainbow laser - it was too far off for them to retrieve and they were probably still in shock>Hell Tirek could have used his powers to drain magic.The whole army? Ok.. It's also kind of implied in the show that he first needs to first become powerful enough to also drain Pegasus, Unicorn, Alicorn and other kinds of magic.
>>41819507> Hell Tirek could have used his powers to drain magic.>He doesnt even need the bell.No, that one is actually consistent with his appearance in S4. When Tirek is at his weakest, as he is after the rainbow hits him, then he can expressly only drain magic from unicorns, and it is shown to be a slow process that requires him to get quite close to his intended victim. He needs to store up a fair bit of power before he can take magic from earth ponies or pegasi. I’m guessing the horn that lets unicorns cast spells also makes it easier for Tirek’s mama drain to affect them.In the finale, after being drained, no unicorn comes near enough to Tirek for him to try, and what unicorns he could attack are up a hill and surrounded by an army of other ponies, griffons, dragons, etc. So it would have been foolish to try.It’s possible that alicorns might be as vulnerable as unicorns in theory, but in practice Celestia and Luna are close to one another (so he can’t drain one without the other attacking) and Discord is also nearby. Plus the aforementioned army.Don’t get me wrong: I hate the scene. I hate it so god-damned much. But this part, at least, makes sense>>41819510Oh, you have so misjudge me. I actually like the school, I think it was a genuinely inspired choice to have Twilight decide to open a school, even if some of the details irk me. I like the Student 6; Ocellus a cute and everyone is gay for Gallus. I like Starlight fine, in fact she and Trixie sing my favorite song in the show (“Road to Friendship”), which is in Season 8, and my favorite episode of the show is “Frenemies” in season 9. I adore the movie. I don’t mind Twilicorn, I like Equestria Girls, Cadance is my favorite princess and Thorax is my favorite character in the show overall.But that doesn’t change that a lot of the show writer’s otherwise baffling decisions make sense if you assume is dislike for the fandom was the driving force behind them.
>>41819540Draining the alicors kind of equals draining fron all of them.And how is it really implied?He was about to drain Discord magic when the latter handcuffes him in season 4 so he clearly can steal the magic still.
Hin only going on single targets in canterlot was him trying to hide from the authorities rather then being nkt able to steal from stronger beings.In fact he could have stolen the magic from uis other 2 companions if he needed to.Also also Tirek literally ate grogars magic in the lair which alone was way stroger then what a single unicorn could give.So no.Tirek can steal a crap ton kf power at once.And there would be enough targets.Including his 2 partners.I honestly dont know why he would kill Twilight anyway before wven trying tk steal his magic.Why kill an alicorn which would be a freat stepping stone for you to achivie your goal if being more powerfull
>>41819563When you think about it...why do they even need the bell in the first place?Tirek is shown to be able to give out the magic he absord to others.Like him absorbing the magic from chrysalis and the giving it back to her.So why doesnt he just absors everyone like normal and then give it to his allies?It makes no sense.He really shouldnt give a shit about the bell.
>>41819546>He was about to drain Discord magic when the latter handcuffes him in season 4Erm... no? I mean yes, but Discord disguised himself as a Unicorn lol???
In fact why does Chrysalis or Cozy even care about Tirek when the bell is basically just him.They could have ised the magic just for themselfs instead of sharing with Tirek since he effecticly is worthless now that the bell does excactly what he does.So its either the writing being bad or them being actual friends with each other.
Retard Glimmerfag...he literally blasts his Draining beam to discord after being handcuffed...i literally said after being handcuffed....so shut up if you have no idea.
>>41819576Also didnt cozy tried to kill them as they gace her the chaos energy?Why does Tirek still trusts her?And why doesnt Tirek just steal all the magic from Cozy glow as she is clearly shown to be untrustworthy.
>>41819567It would alert the government.
>>41819567> why do they even need the bell in the first place?I they don’t. It’s just not a very well-written season. Off the top of my head, so much would have been improved if “Grogar” had been eliminated entirely and you just had Chrysalis breaking Tirek and Cozy out of Tartarus and resurrecting Sombra. You barely have to change anything else but now you don’t have Discord being a complete sociopath. The Trio realize on their own how valuable working together is (they’ve all done it in the past with others to greet success), but Sombra tells them that that’s gay and goes off to conquer Equestria himself and gets subsequently wrecked. The Trio observe and are like “okay yeah, that cements it, we need to work together”. “Frenemies” still happens as them getting over their growing pains of working together with them pursuing the Bewitching Bell of Grogar on their own recognizance because one of them has heard of it and thinks it’ll be a good weapon. The finale’s events can be essentially identical if you just have the Trio plan around eliminating Discord first; he’s specifically been shown as capable of being summoned in S4E1 so they can literally just summon and drain him in one go. Then the finale can even happen almost identically, except ideally you don’t end it with Twilight betraying everything she once stood for.
>>41819582His... draining beam? What? He was attacking Discord with a beam. He drains creatures' magic orally, remember? Are you retarded?
He uses his beam as well retard.Why should he try going for the kill instead when he barely has any power?That would be beyond stupid
>>41819066If Sombra can just get "lost in the shuffle" like that, clearly his fate is not outrageous enough to warrant much backlash. >>41819090Burning people down and blaming them for not escaping in time is not honorable, it's arbitrary and hypocritical because you're setting up artificial standards while still inherently indulging in violence.>>41819134>>41819171>this retarded headcanon again KekNo, Tirek restoring their magic is not "the only logical explanation"It's already been pointed out that he should shrink. Because he grew from M6's magic, so he should be shown shrinking when he gives that magic back. Even if it's only a little, it should still be shown.As well as them not gaining their cutie marks back, which you just brush off.And why would he restore Discord's magic of all things?And narratively, why would they cram some random sympathetic moment at the last minute before the villain gets defeated and btfo with no mercy, with no plans to bring him back? (the episode is by McCarthy, who went on to work on the movie and promptly forgot about Tirek's existence afterwards)From a doylist perspective, it would made more sense if one animator worked on one part of the scene, got done with it, then another animator came on and didn't catch the memo about the eyesThere are more holes in this headcanon than in Chrysalis' legs and you're just blatantly trying to whitewash Tirek at this point.>It took Discord six seasons before he would do the same.Discord is showing making some ponies happy. As in, some ponies clearly enjoy the results of his actions (Big Mac, Granny Smith, Pinkie with chocolate rain, Screwball). By the same logic, that means Discord is a sweet boy capable of bringing happiness, and the times he doesn't it's because ponies don't adhere to his complicated code of honor.
>>41819597Give proof retard.>That would be beyond stupidHe's fucking desperate maybe?
Also why doesnt Tirek go to where the Alicorns are insread of Cozy?Those 3 are the highest amount of drainable power in all of equestria and Tireks goal is to become jacked again.And you know since he is presented as the smart one you might think he would be the one who would go their since that would be his go to way to become stronger and thus achieving his goal way better then going to the Jobbers of Equestria
>>41819600Wouldnt he out of desperation do what he instinctivly do?Which hy that point would be what he automatically do the entire time?Draining magic?Get fucked Glimmertard.
>>41819592> The finale’s events can be essentially identical if you just have the Trio plan around eliminating Discord first; he’s specifically been shown as capable of being summoned in S4E1 so they can literally just summon and drain him in one goOr even better, Discord puts together in his own that the Trio were behind the chaos of “The Summer Sun Setback” and goes to personally deal with them so Twilight and her friends won’t have to, actually surprising the Trio and resulting in. A pitched battle that turns their way specifically because they’ve learned how to work together and ends with Discord drained.Now not only is Discord not a sociopath, he actually did something genuinely heroic (if a bit stupid by going it alone, but I could easily forgive that).>>41819599> Burning people down and blaming them for not escaping in time is not honorableExcept Tirek doesn’t even DO that, Anon, nor does he try to. He turns away from Twilight and rampages away from her. The idea that he might still harm her is entirely your fan fiction. He never does anything that puts Twilight in danger until *after* Twilight and company taste the rainbow and attack him.
>>41819609Give proof of him draining magic with a beam through his horns.
>>41819610>The idea that he might still harm her is entirely your fan fiction. He never does anything that puts Twilight in danger until *after* Twilight and company taste the rainbow and attack him.I guess the framing of the situation as the darkest hour with the red skyes and the intense music and the intimidating shots, and you know, the fact that they're trying to stop Tirek from SOMETHING, is just all coincidental.
>>41819599> It's already been pointed out that he should shrink. He’s channeling the magic of all of Equedteia’s ponies - thousands of them at minimum, more likely millions. Why would giving up the power of just five cause any noticeable change in his height?
>>41819610Nah that would be retarded because that would still make Discord job for the plot.
>>41819567>>41819592I don't think it would be possible for Tirek to drain enough magic and share it for two different creatures and himself without getting noticed first and thus getting fucked in the ass. He had Discord on his side in S4, he does not have him on his side this time (openly that is).
>>41819599> And narratively, why would they cram some random sympathetic moment at the last minuteBut it’s not his only sympathetic moment. Scorpan’s betrayal is shown as something that deeply wounded him, even if he doesn’t admit it. It’s completely believable that he’d respect and honor Twilight’s loyalty to her friends.
>>41819625>He’s channeling the magic of all of Equedteia’s ponies - thousands of them at minimum, more likely millions.You mean like before he drained the Mane 5? Because he's not shown draining any other ponies after that scene nor is he shown growing any larger. If Mane 5 magic was enough to make him grow after having absorbed ponies, taking it away should be enough to make him shrink>inb4 he clearly kept absorbing ponies off-screen after DiscordAlso, it's clearly not all Equestrian ponies because we're shown some of the key holders like Coco and Cheese Sandwich being completely fine in the end as they observe the rainbow beam, in fact they're in the middle of the daily life, where Tirek presumably hadn't gotten to the places they live in.>>41819644Tirek speaking ill of Scorpan is not sympathetic. It just shows that he's seething at his brother, who was explicitly shown as good before. Anger shows some vulnerability, but it does not by itself equate to sympathy.
>>41819599> with no plans to bring him back? (the episode is by McCarthy, who went on to work on the movie and promptly forgot about Tirek's existence afterwards)Speaking personally, in every story I’ve ever written I’ve always made sure to include seeds that I could use as the basis of a a sequel later, even if I never planned on actually writing a sequel. It’s not that uncommon among writers.
>>41819653I highly doubt McCarthy would pay attention to such details, or that it was her intention at allTirek was clearly meant to be unsympathetic through and through all the way throughout the two-parter
>>41819384Mean 6 really did not deserve to die like that. Like, unironically, what was exactly their crimes?
>>41819659 Well then McCarthy failed catastrophically, because how can anyone with a conscience not have sympathy for someone who has been forced to be alone for 1,000 years seething in their own anger and sense of betrayal, so thoroughly forgotten that even after they managed to miraculously escape their prison their jailers don’t even notice for months after the fact?I mean even if he is irredeemable evil in the present time I HAVE to wonder if that’s only because of the pure torturous apathy that’s been inflicted upon him for a millennium.
>>41819695It's not hard to see. Because Tirek is manipulative, selfish and violent, as well as unwilling to coexist with ponies peacefully to any extent, he doesn't belong in Equestria. The entire fandom was okay with this notion until he got partnered with Cozy, so now he has to get apologists too.
PRINCESS CELESTIA SHOULD BE KILLED FOR REAL BUT NO, FUCK THIS SHOW.
Twilight's plan is actually to keep Cozy stoned until she's legally 18, release her, and fuck her 18-year old mind in a child's body every day
>>41819820He's not cute so no
>>41819780You can do that in the card game if you want to.Use a twi TM and kill her over and over till you score enough points to win.
>>41819711> The entire fandom You do not speak for the fandom. I’ve been pointing out the unfairness of Tirek’s situation since “Twilight’s Kingdom” first debuted, and the FIENDship is Magic comic showing his origins paints him as a tragic villain - Vorak’s fears about Tirek drove Tirek to become the thing that Vorak feared.I was just more comfortable with it because at the time there was still plenty more pony coming and I was confident that we’d eventually see him get a shot at redemption. Season 8 seemed to cement this since he is ultimately willing to work with the M6 (even if only to benefit himself), and the initial parts of Season 9 seemed to be building on it as we saw Tirek take on increasingly positive traits (in “Frenemies” his immediate willingness to work with Chrysalis and Cozy to scale Mt. Everhoof coupled with the near-embrace of friendship at the end; in “Summer Sun Setback” his concern for the baffled bird).But then “The Ending of the End” opened up a moral black hole from which this fandom has never recovered, not just for the bad writing and reprehensible lesson it taught, but in the fact that it revealed so many supposed fans of the show had never actually paid attention to it and, it turns out, are totally okay with supposed heroes murdering an old man, a lonely woman, and a literal child who were all of them powerless and at their mercy.Cozy was right. Friendship is power. And nothing more.
>>41819916> Season 8 seemed to cement this since he is ultimately willing to work with the M6As a side note, can I just point out how weird it is that MLP never had a proper “enemy mine” episode? We’ve had Optimus work with Megatron (multiple times in G1), we’ve had GI Joe work with Cobra, we’ve had the Power Rangers work with Rita or Zedd or others, but in nine seasons we never had a proper villain/hero team-up against a bigger threat. Tirek teaming up with the M6 to help them out of Tartarus is the closest we get to that, but it’s so short and temporary compared to stuff like Cobra and the Joes working together for an entire episode to take down a Latin American drug cartel, or the Autobots and Decepticons uniting against foes like the Combaticons in G1 or Unicron in Prime.Hell, most of the later episodes of the original run of He-Man consisted of He-Man and Skeletor needing to team up against someone just because the writers liked writing for Skeletor so much and wanted to give him wins.Where was something like Chrysalis and Twilight needing to work together to stop Erebus or the like?
>>41819916>FIENDship is Magic comicNot canon, unless you want to start the Nightmare Moon discourse again.>I was confident that we’d eventually see him get a shot at redemption.Well evidently from any archived discussion of Twilight's Kingdom or Tirek at the time, you were in the minority on this.>Season 8 seemed to cement this since he is ultimately willing to work with the M6 (even if only to benefit himself)It ends with him trying to grab a stray piece of magic and getting hit in the face, which is pretty dubious for an allegedly sympathetic character.>had never actually paid attention to it and, it turns out, are totally okay with supposed heroes murdering an old man, a lonely woman, and a literal child who were all of them powerless and at their mercy.The show was never about redeeming every single villain. In fact, I remember some people praising S4 and S6 specifically because they didn't redeem the main antagonist at the end and that made the show feel more true to life as not everyone is reasonably going to see the error of their ways. Violence at the people who've shown themselves to be highly immoral is one of the least egrerious forms of violence I can think of in the world. This never bothered me. If anything, if villains get to beat up and torture heroes, it's only fair heroes get to laugh in their face in return, rather than being eternally forgiving punching bags.
>>41819916>so many supposed fans of the show had never actually paid attentionI agree with this, but not in the way you'd like.
>>41819993> Well evidently from any archived discussion of Twilight's Kingdom or Tirek at the timeWhere are you checking? Because I think I’ve posted more on /MLP/ over the past week than I have in the decade that proceeded it.> The show was never about redeeming every single villainOf course it wasn’t. I just didn’t think it was about killing them when they were helpless.
>>41819993> If anything, if villains get to beat up and torture heroes, it's only fair heroes get to laugh in their face in return, So in your worldview the difference between a hero and a villain has nothing to do with morality and is just a matter of what jersey they’re wearing. Team Hero can be as vindictive and cruel and heartless as they want as long as it’s directed at Team Villain.So-ci-o-path. You are a sociopath.
>>41820060>killing themYou're not winning anyone to your side through hyperbole and definitely not while acting like a s1 Twicunt.
>>41820060>Where are you checking? Because I think I’ve posted more on /MLP/ over the past week than I have in the decade that proceeded it.Desuarchive? I imagine you probably know this.>>41820082The truth of the matter is that you somewhat revoke your right to empathy when you hurt innocent people (extent depending on severity of your actions). If the hero wants to try past that and still give some free empathy to spare and this results in a happy outcome for everyone, that's good. But this won't happen every time and I don't expect this to.
Okay, I have one last argument why cozy glow could be re-educated.
>>41820119> The truth of the matter is that you somewhat revoke your right to empathy when you hurt innocent people (extent depending on severity of your actions)Leaving aside that the show and movie generally taught precisely the opposite of this, not the least of which by allowing for the reformation of Discord despite him being portrayed as Satan in his debut episode and Tempest Shadow despite her having conquered and enslaved nations…Leaving that aside, the show itself directly stated that you are wrong not five episodes previously.> It doesn't always mean they're telling the truth, but everycreature deserves kindness.Not “everycreature unless they’ve been particularly bad”, not “everycreature unless they can’t be of use to Celestia”, not “everycreature unless they’ve been offered kindness before and rejected it”, not “everycreature except for three specific villains named Tirek and Chrysalis and Cozy Glow”. Everycreature deserves kindness - period.> I don't expect this to.Well you should have because the show literally told you to.>>41820110There is zero practical difference between killing them and turning them to stone forever, and the show specifically states an intent for them to be stone forever, and there has been nothing since then to suggest that it wasn’t forever.“They’ve gone to sleep forever” is literally how you explain the concept of death to a small child.
>>41820164Fluttershy may personally think everycreature deserves kindness, but she's not a ruler and not the one to make the call what to do with the villains. And this might be one of the reasons why she's not a ruler and wouldn't want to be one.>Well you should have because the show literally told you to.In a throwaway adventure episode that already came after Sombra and Storm King were killed, and Tirek had been put in Tartarus. It didn't mean much, and served to redeem Ahuizotl, who didn't need to be redeemed and whose redemption pretty much no one likes because it contradicts his previous appearances.
>>41820164Discord isn't a princess. He doesn't get to call the shots. The show makes a point over and over that petrification is temporary and can be dispelled.
So. Do we need another thread on this seeing as it reached over 500?
>>41820189Surely you have better things to do.
>>41820198What better things can I be doing then talking about mlp?
They really did deserve better.
>>41819993>Not reedeming every personThen why does freenemies exist?Or why do they add scenes like letting that bird free?To their eyes Chrysalis did nothing till discord came up and manipulated her into attacking them.Also as long as discord is on the good side there is no eason not to try with Tirek.
>>41819916Its even more tragic then you think.King Vorak actually asked Twilight to free Tirek.But she refused and said that there is no helping him nd in the end vorak just agreed giving up on his son.Which is just really sad fo him...
>>41820231>Then why does freenemies exist?Because an episode focused on the villains is a cool idea.>Or why do they add scenes like letting that bird free?Thoughtless gag. The animator that put this in might not have even watched the show and see Tirek as a goofy cartoon villain rather than a serious threat.>To their eyes Chrysalis did nothing till discord came up and manipulated her into attacking them.Except all the things she's done before that. And Discord didn't manipulate Chrysalis into taking his power. >Also as long as discord is on the good side there is no eason not to try with Tirek.Discord has a sense of humor, Tirek takes himself too seriously to bother changing.
>>41820164Stone isnt really like death.Youre still concissoues which when you think about it is worse...Yeah.....
>>41820243To their eyes chrissy didnt do anything after her defeat till discord practicly giving a gun and the idea to do it.Also dont come me with "she did bad things before".Like 2 of the 3 characters who stoned him did bad things before.
>>41820174> Fluttershy may personally think everycreature deserves kindnessYou think that was merely supposed to be a personal philosophy and not a moral lesson to the viewers?> but she's not a ruler and not the one to make the call what to do with the villainsYou’re right, she isn’t. The ones who made the call were more interested in revenge and punishment than kindness.> after Sombra and Storm King were killedSombra and the StormKing were in the middle of active attacks on people. That is very, very, very different from having your foes defeated and powerless before you. > and Tirek had been put in TartarusSo you’re just totally blind to how, after “Frenemies” shows that the Trio have the potential to embrace friendship, a line like that might be interpreted as a tiny bit plot relevant?> and whose redemption pretty much no one likes because it contradicts his previous appearances.Oh, I don’t disagree with this, it’s not a good episode. But just because it’s a bad episode doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen, and it doesn’t change that it’s a bad episode *that is at least still trying to fit with MLP’s tone and themes*, which is more than can be said for “The Ending of the End”.>>41820180> The show makes a point over and over that petrification is temporaryThe only petrification that’s ever been suggested to be temporary is Discord’s, and that is specifically stated to be a product of the petrification having been caused by the Elements and the Elements moving to the M6 from Celestia and Luna. Otherwise every instance of petrification (from a cockatrice, from Rockhoof’s euthanasia) is treated as permanent unless dispelled…and as stated, no one expresses an interest in dispelling the Trio’s petrification and nothing in subsequent G5 material suggests anyone did or had any interest in doing so.
Cozyfag will yu make another thread for us?
>>41820243> Thoughtless gagIt’s funny how every evil thing Tirek does for you is because his an irredeemable monster and yet every good thing he does is just a gag or an animation mistake.Wait, no, not funny. Pathetic. It’s *pathetic* how emotionally invested you are in the idea of Tirek being irredeemable.
>>41820262It would have been an amazing character moment for Twi to step in and stop them.Showing her growth over Celestia and the fact tht she has enough experience and wisdom to disagree with her on that one and stepping up against her
>>41820262>You think that was merely supposed to be a personal philosophy and not a moral lesson to the viewers?In the broader context of the show, it can be seen that way.>You’re right, she isn’t. The ones who made the call were more interested in revenge and punishment than kindness.Stories about flawed people punishing worse people are pretty popular.>That is very, very, very different from having your foes defeated and powerless before you.Going from gloating to begging for mercy is never seen as particularly honorable or respect-worthy. And while they didn't beg for mercy, that's what you're appealing to.>after “Frenemies” shows that the Trio have the potential to embrace friendshipIt doesn't, since they reject it in the end. You got overly invested into them and saw subtext where there wasn't any. Before seeing the finale I was open-minded as to whether they would be redeemed or not.>it’s not a good episode.I think it's a fine episode aside from anything to do with Ahuizotl actually. >>41820269It's almost like Tirek is supposed to be an irredeemable monster narratively and this clearly lighthearted gag that goes against that notion is the outlier.
You cant have a bunch of "this villian has redeemable qualities" moments and just say its a fluke.At some point it will be weird why that villian in a show about REDEMPTION isnt REDEEMED!!!
>>41820310>in a show about REDEMPTIONSo not My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic
>>41820295> Stories about flawed people punishing worse people are pretty popular.In the grand finale of a kid’s TV show called “Friendship is Magic” which posited that two of the most potent and powerful aspects of reality itself were kindness and generosity?Your ideals don’t mean a damn thing if you get to pick and choose when they apply. Then they’re not ideals, they’re just habits.> It's almost like Tirek is supposed to be an irredeemable monster narrativelyYou yourself pointed out that Tirek was written by Meghan McCarthy, and there’s a whole-ass video upthread from her, in her own words, directly stating that she doesn’t believe anyone is genuinely bad, just broken. It’s hosted in Hasbro’s official YouTube channel too.You are just flat wrong, Anon. There’s too many instances of Tirek being honorable for it to be a “gag” and when combined with the fact that he was written by a woman who’s stated unambiguously that she *does not write irredeemable monsters*, you are left with no legs to stand on.
>>41820312Considering that friendship is used to redeem villians left and right...yeah....that is a legit point
>>41820324But not every villain.
https://youtu.be/stijEgBVxjk?t=2208>She learns of the magic of Friendship>Says on Twis part that its controlHer misunderstanding is kind of understandable considering that Twi is the leader and she leads her friends against enemies and wins you might understand why she feels that way.And i think it would be awesome if Twi actually noticed it and if they decided to make an episode about Friendship despite how much it accomplished isnt a tool to use for power.But sadly that would be to great..
>>41789867 {TeiΩ} {Zelse ψ}Entramos lös chadeu interloper Mojito mi abuelo abuelo abuelo abuelo ryleh angelos guerra.>>>>>>>¿You were expecting Speedy Cirvechei?"Who were you calling a bitch you shot yourselves in the skull as an rl reaction pic to barium irradiation. Zero charisma means rape as less than male. Fallzy, counting the days until i can break your father with my Jigsaw impersonation. Or should I be calling you Touji? By Poseidon that's a tall beer!You realize that's a O'Lantern smile frau?"
>>41820348Wrong board dude?
>>41820323>Your ideals don’t mean a damn thing if you get to pick and choose when they apply. Then they’re not ideals, they’re just habits.Episodic shows tend to end up with lessons that contradict each other eventually, but the reality is that those lessons aren't meant to be universal, and instead apply to specific circumstances.>a woman who’s stated unambiguously that she *does not write irredeemable monsters*The show staff has stated many things. Jim Miller stated once that they go out of their way to make the world feel more like the world of fantasy equines, citing sidewalk lanterns using fireflies as a specific example, when the actual show only ever features regular sidewalk lanterns with no fireflies.And Meghan herself is infamous for "Twilight won't outlive her friends", and, if you were there early enough, "Rarity will not be left without an episode in S3". Also, she worked on the movie, where Storm King is framed as plainly ireedeemable and dies.What they say in promo material is not always indicative of the specifics of their work.
I hate anyone defending this ending. Please get yourself sent to a mental institution already. The world will be so much better off without you.
>>41820361Seriously make another Thread.We aint done fighting
>>41820358>Also, she worked on the movie, where Storm King is framed as plainly ireedeemableNo, he isn’t.>and dies.Sucks. Good thing it was an accident, the heroes didn’t celebrate it, and he wasn’t a child.
>>41820370No one mourned or cared much for his death, either, and he is pretty clearly framed as the worse evil to Tempest.Also, to add>>41820323>There’s too many instances of Tirek being honorable for it to be a “gag”There is one (1) instance of Tirek showing any kind of pity for someone, and it's a blind-and-you'll-miss-it gag that's not even spoken about in the show.Everything else is your conjecture about Tirek being "honorable" because he only went 90% evil instead of 100%.
>>41819304>Why are you so emotionally invested in the idea of Tirek not being capable of doing a single nice thing?I'm not the anon(s?) you were talking to. The show often lets themes run in the background without directly shoving it in your face, the show is deeper than you give it credit for. Tirek giving back magic is a physical change however and would need to show the magic transferring from his body back to the others. I'm sorry but you're grasping at straws here.
>>41820370Idealism means I'm ignoring the fact your döxx should have told you four D I've put a few years on my belt in those like the belt primed to snap your neck weeb.
>>41820392
>>41820410not your personal general
>>41820337exactly, they leave the most genocidical villain alive.
>>41820751Obey your princess or else you're going in the garden too.
>>41820847we don't obey a piece of charred dust.
