Brahms editionhttps://youtu.be/drQR-TAo_KUThis thread is for the discussion of music in the Western (European) classical tradition, as well as classical instrument-playing.>How do I get into classical?This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:https://rentry.org/classicalgenPrevious: >>128987052
Wagner is light.
>>129005417HEIL.
Nietzsche:>Through Wagner modernity speaks her most intimate language: it conceals neither its good nor its evil: it has thrown off all shame. And, conversely, one has almost calculated the whole of the value of modernity once one is clear concerning what is good and evil in Wagner.
>>129005423there is no god but Wagner.
>writes chorales and counterpoint as good as Bach>writes operas as good as Mozart>writes themes and motifs as good as Beethoven>writes lieder as good as Schubert>writes orchestration as good as BerliozIs he the ultimate composer?
Wagner is the cure to every problem.
Brahmshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AupY2j9hlbo&list=OLAK5uy_nphcFX6HoQq1bLnaMia2rR5WUPHVFRqvg&index=175
Diabellihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uko_W-7jiWk
>>129005417A decent edition for once.
>“Brahms, as a musical personality, is simply antipathetic to me—I can't stand him. No matter how much he tries, I always remain cold and hostile. This is purely instinctive reaction,” Tchaikovsky wrote in a letter.
Sonata TragicaTozer:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9rDJw6jH7AHamelin:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PGkAb--CWUMilne:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1epoO3C7qcMedtner himself:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mg1i7yjgr4&list=OLAK5uy_ka9bBtJiRkpBYCq0SV6Ppyx4WAOPCXZ-MTozer plays improperly, but is more enjoyable for it. Loud and bangy - although not overly so, we like that here. Hamelin plays slightly more properly, more quickly, but less enjoyably. I do enjoy his coda though, it is a a flurry of notes, and Hamelin breezes through it. Milne's take - as usual for himself - is aligned with the way you are supposed to play the piece. But also rather interestingly, he really emphasizes the rhythmic qualities, especially in the beginning. Medtners own recording are of the worst HISS possible, but otherwise very nice, he was basically in the process of dying as these were recorded, plus was very old, but they can be taken for reference on some level I suppose. Certainly Medtner's own recording are closer to Milne than the other two, as for if you care about that, thats on you. What I will say is that Medtner has great clarity and articulation of his notes, if, in part, due to the slower tempo. I would certainly suggest Milne over his own recordings due to their similarities, except without the dreadful HISS.
can we do without all the quote spam for a thread, jesus
>>129005614Wagner raped your mind.
>>129005614The word "spam" only applies in cases where the "noun" in use elicits exasperation. The word "Wagner" is so powerful and majestic that even the slightest mention of it should bring delight and jovialness. Wilhelm Richard Wagner is the "Bard of Bacchus", the first artist who created the purest form of art. It should be celebrated and worshipped. Even if the entire thread and every post says "Wagner", it is enough. It is justified and it is a great thread.
>>129005619I'm serious. I used to read every post in these threads but the last handful I've found myself scrolling to the very bottom whenever there are more than a few new posts since I last checked, and I hate it because I'm sure I'm missing tons of important questions and productive discussion.
Norgardhttps://youtu.be/wfAfcLeyWT0
>>129005666This is highly interesting, how does he make modernist composition sound as if it has purpose?
>>129005666>>129005699Do you have any other interesting modern composers to look at?
>>129005630Please stop the gimmick is so fucking bad and lazy
>>129005768NTA but depends what year you mean by modern
>>129005787I mean the usual slop of sonorist or mathematical compositions, this Norgard fellow has a strange way of sounding so obviously modern, yet also doesn't just sound like random notes. Sounds more like actual classical in some manner.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuYC6mZAXfwHe seems very peculiar to my ears.
>>129005808>>129005808Well Norgard didn't become one of the most famous and acclaimed contemporary composers for nothing. Anyway, here's another,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mcH2OtL4k
>>129005785Listen. This is /classical/, not "plebbit". We only discuss patrician refined music here. You are on the wrong bus stop, but instead of being a civil individual and leaving, you are instead creating a "ruckus" for the other waiting passengers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMw0EjLFPXw Wagner showed us the dangers of being a "faustian" man, not with long essays and tedious literature, but with elegant sound and smooth instrumentation. You are the devil, "Mephistopheles" trying to seduce us poor souls into degeneracy.W.
>>129005842You got me to grin with 'ruckus' I admit. Alright carry on I guess. While I have your attention what do you think of the Burton 9 hour Wagner biopic? Worth watching?
>>129005821Less of a fan of this, it almost might have had me with the romantic-bleeding-into-modern idea, but the Stravinsky-esque section right after was intolerable.
now playingstart of Shostakovich: String Quartet No. 4 in D Major, Op. 83https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1by90Zr0d_k&list=OLAK5uy_mcg5lzOrDyNFhcLKo4VDGhVdM_z68SAoE&index=2start of Shostakovich: String Quartet No. 6 in G Major, Op. 101https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmdJPzkAap0&list=OLAK5uy_mcg5lzOrDyNFhcLKo4VDGhVdM_z68SAoE&index=6start of Shostakovich: String Quartet No. 8 in C Minor, Op. 110https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLd2ZlwWPNw&list=OLAK5uy_mcg5lzOrDyNFhcLKo4VDGhVdM_z68SAoE&index=9https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mcg5lzOrDyNFhcLKo4VDGhVdM_z68SAoE>In the Petersburg's reading, Shostakovich's dark pastoral, No. 4, opens anxiously, to say the least. One virtually hears the butterflies in the narrative's stomach. The piece moves quickly from gentle opening to dark-hued main body, as if leaping from spring to autumn without the benefit of a summer vacation. It gets as icy as it is compositionally demanding, even shrill at times. There's something distressed in the jittery quality of the players' lines, which don't progress a second without wavering microtonally. When spring returns, it doesn't manage to shrug off autumn's shadow, and the Petersburgs have proved themselves able storytellers. The jump to No. 6's cotillion of an opening movement couldn't be more pronounced, except for the way that Shostakovich warps familiar chamber motifs. The unease that marked the players' individual attacks in No. 4 is here applied to whole melodies, which sound Mozartean in their frivolity but are apt to dissolve into discord, as if in a disturbed dream. No. 8 bears the most distinctly Slavic cast, and provides a meaty counterpoint to No. 4. This is, sure thing, tough material: best suited to listeners for whom the traditional chamber repertoire has grown familiar, but who still want a sense of compositional grounding. --Marc Weidenbaum
>>129005881>implying he even listens to Fagner>implying you didn't just reply to a copypasta that is just one of hundreds he has saved in a spreadsheet with each page organized by each type of spam it promotes
>>129005915>After the St Petersburg Quartet's 'dazzling debut' on Hyperion with String Quartets 2 and 3 (CDA67153), this CD brings three further compelling recordings of the Shostakovich Quartets. Quartet No 4 was written at a time when leading Soviet composers were having their music publicly denigrated for failing to appeal to 'the people'. Despite this condemnation, Shostakovich persevered with his composing and just delayed the premier until four years later. Whatever Shostakovich feared to express publicly at this time (1949), by 1956, the year of his Sixth Quartet, the political and cultural climate had improved. The works Shostakovich released following Stalin's deaththe Fourth and Fifth Quartets, Violin Concerto, Tenth Symphony and Festive Overturehad altered the international perception of his art considerably. 1956 was the year of Shostakovich's fiftieth birthday, and the Sixth Quartet was written for a commemorative concert by the Beethoven Quartet. The event was, naturally, to be a pleasant one, and the music reflects, at least on the surface, the happiness as may be felt on such an occasion. Beneath the surface, however, we discern one of this composer's greatest and most original masterpieces. In July 1960, Shostakovich was in Dresden, in the then German Democratic Republic, writing the music for a film, Five Days, Five Nights. This was the first time Shostakovich had seen the remains of the city's bombardment, and the experience directly inspired his Eighth String Quartet, Op 110, which was written in just three days, July 12 to 14.
favorite recording(s) of Schumann's piano sonatas?for anyone not already familiar with them,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruV4V5mPwW8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afxr6pWwejkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EClZICLRxrE
>>129005964>for anyone not already familiar with them,>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruV4V5mPwW8Not very interesting. I thought he was supposed to be known for piano composition?
>>129006033the G minor one is the best of those threeand yes he is but not for his piano sonatas. lemme show you if you're interested,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC4N5YBryWAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFWzkwm9N4khttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L16yD3HbBZIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSUUI3_W4eQamong a couple others but these are his real solo piano masterpieces, the ones he is most known and revered for, the ones which rank among the greatest in the repertoirefug, even just previewing these when getting the links, now I wanna listen to them, especially Kinderszenen, so fuckin' goodhope you enjoy :)
>>129006033>>129006077oh my god I'm so embarrassed, how did I forget the Fantasie in C and Carnaval, probably the two most famoushttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ7hE4lQAYshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9W7GXy-s3E
Dallapiccolahttps://youtu.be/VkleIqlXEQs
>>129005417This general blows
>>129006077>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC4N5YBryWAWhat is the form for this? Is there any interconnection going on, or are these just a collection of pieces?
>>129006130Be the change you want to see, anon
>>129006133iirc, there's no overarching form, it's a piano cycle (aka a "collection pieces" generally with a unifying emotional narrative)I think only Carnaval has any real variation structure, but yeah they're all pretty freeflowing works, which is definitely part of their lyrical charm, as they make for a unique listening experience that keeps drawing you back
Exploring through classical and while I like all the endless Chopin copycats with their piano nocturnes im getting a bit tired of it. Is there anyone else from the 1850s on that have a bit more hair on their chest? Stravinsky's Rite of Spring so far was my favorite from that era
>>129006077>>129006133Also was Schumann still during the time of the fortepiano? https://youtu.be/QC4N5YBryWA?t=287 is a very nice melody, but the left hand is very muddy; I have taken the fortepill recently and the bass notes of modern pianos lacks clarity for this sort of thing IMO.
>>129006188it doesn't include that one but on a quick search, he's a fortepiano recording which includes about a third of his solo piano works, so probably worthwhile if you're into thathttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBY88aJIUZI&list=OLAK5uy_krHQRjuqYMShNRGmr3jDBSh7nuZf3irGE&index=1
now playingstart of Dvorak: String Quartet No. 7 in A Minor, Op. 16, B. 45https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRG9bQiiaEM&list=OLAK5uy_nCCj-2rWGjqD7s0LWMq-iUsF0Q63sftZw&index=2start of Dvorak: String Quartet No. 1 in A Major, Op. 2, B. 8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWmFKAV0Yw&list=OLAK5uy_nCCj-2rWGjqD7s0LWMq-iUsF0Q63sftZw&index=6start of Dvorak: String Quartet No. 11 in C Major, Op. 61, B. 121https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6nihpSUupc&list=OLAK5uy_nCCj-2rWGjqD7s0LWMq-iUsF0Q63sftZw&index=10start of Dvorak: Waltzes, Op. 54, B. 101https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcUWX7P5-bg&list=OLAK5uy_nCCj-2rWGjqD7s0LWMq-iUsF0Q63sftZw&index=13https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nCCj-2rWGjqD7s0LWMq-iUsF0Q63sftZwa short, positive review,https://www.thestrad.com/reviews/vogler-quartet-frithjof-martin-grabner-dvoak/19311.articleexcerpt,>Description: Powerful advocacy makes this emerging cycle a vital listen>Certainly, his first foray into quartet writing is hardly ever heard outside completist projects such as this. The 21-year-old student and violist displays his innate feeling for string textures in a work that already radiates the lyric generosity of his later music, even if ambition outweighs discipline over its 40-minute span. Beethoven, Mendelssohn and Schumann were his earliest quartet gods, although by the time of the Quartet no.7, twelve years later, Slavonic folk elements – the mazurka and sousedská – are heard alongside greater concentration and economy of means. And in his Quartet no.11 (1881), the elements that make Dvořák what he is are all in place, not least that essential sense of a national identity, allied with absolute command of material and form.Comfy, inspiring works, as Dvorak so often is. I could spend all day listening to his string quartets, especially from this recent cycle.
>>129006264er, I meant to say I could spend all day in bed listening to his string quartets, because of their incredibly comfy, spiritually jubilant nature.
Scriabinhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paJm5BDv2UI&list=OLAK5uy_kg2WSEqnkuPUk6HItJ-edtTSfhG-SNjYY&index=7
>>129006225I found one on soundcloud of all things using a "P. Érard (c1849)"; it is exactly as I thought - the piece is only of worth on a fortepiano. I am beginning to feel like most classical listeners and even the pianists themselves are of a lesser mind, how can no one else notice the obvious? https://soundcloud.com/le-salon-de-parnasse/davidsbundlertanze-op-6-n-4-ungeduldigThe fortepiano was superior, only in projection and loudness do modern pianos win. Also pedal piano should have become the standard just like Alkan wanted.
>>129006328Well, uh, whatever it takes for the music to best work for you, glad you enjoy it.
>>129006184https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kryR41I-z9PgC5qMxVlWmEYKYJ7xkXKTYhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXnoxs5WDTAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMs8K9sZ2Qghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP5xhyPn58U
>>129006373Thanks, I forgot about Holst. Ill check these out
>>129006188He was born right around the time when modern pianos replaced fortepianos.
>>129006184Prokfiev, Scriabin, Bruckner, Strauss, Shostakovich, Berg. If you can give a specific form, that'd help.
>>129006184https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2dmfzWEz0&list=OLAK5uy_kK-f8tRMPKy9O2DEgT0owLUm4nEpqs9js&index=2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F0V9TuQvG4&list=OLAK5uy_kK-f8tRMPKy9O2DEgT0owLUm4nEpqs9js&index=5Lots of things in the vein you're looking for as a result of modernism and the world wars.
>>129006339It is ok, I noticed it had a potential for a nice melody, but wasn't coming to life as it should because the bottom end was nothing else but muddy nothingness. I would probably never return to it, and Schumann seems like a rather boring composer typical of the schlock era, but it has proven very well to me the strengths of the forte, and also that I was not just stringing myself along for worthless HIP propaganda (like pretending the Harpsicord has any use outside of larping). >>129006393I don't even need to research to know you are wrong, that single piece itself confirms that either Schumann was a complete hack who couldn't write for piano at all, or the obvious alternative is that he was composing for a forte. I did go look anyways, since I doubt you have the ability to hear the difference it makes, and would not believe my words. >15] Graf was one of the first Viennese makers to build pianos in quantity, as a large business enterprise. His instruments were played by Chopin, Mendelssohn and Schumann.
Why do so many Mahler symphonies end in a whimper?
>>129006489Mahler is transcoded musical estrogen based on Fagnerian homosexual-laden lietmotifs.>According to Bruno Walter, sprach Zarathustra impressed [Mahler] with its linguistic brilliance, whereas its ideas tended, rather, to repel him... His thoughts on Nietzsche, whose ‘utterly false and brazenly arrogant theories of masculine supremacy’ he dismissed in a particularly venomous outburst
>>129006489I don't know if whimper is how I'd describe it. A soft, post-climactic culmination I'd say. A final satisfied exhale. A musical readjustment. A return to the calm, warm baseline.
Dusapinhttps://youtu.be/uenXuAR8PTA
start the day with Bach's WTC, end the day with Shostakovich's 24 Preludes and Fugues, Op. 87
Alexandra Papastefanou's Bachhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqaimwWGHB4&list=OLAK5uy_mxlL8KzdMe-WFzSq5iZcwPY5zEMYadY-M&index=14>Those who liked Alexandra Papastefanou’s recent Bach recordings – the French Suites and two books of the Well-Tempered Clavier – will immediately recognize that this new recording of the Goldberg Variations comes from the same artist; Semi-improvisational style, expressive phrasing, and unashamed usage of the sustaining pedal, especially on the slower variations.
>>129006489What? The 6th has one of the worst jumpscares in the entire music and art in general, the whimper before that is fitting. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th definitely don't end in whimper, which leaves what, 4th and 9th? tf are you talking about
>>129006645Papastefanou plays Bach's music as if it were by Schumann or Faure.And I love it.(warning, this kills the HIPster)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCxznOmqjZE&list=OLAK5uy_nXZrYRnTHOmXSsccwZXvgIi3nSrOp-etE&index=26
Alkan pedal piece. Which should have been the standard form of piano the second it became a thing, finally capable of matching the organ in one area. Seems rather underdeveloped compared to his regular piano works, but he was not an organist after all. Still, rather nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuomW9Aqqwg
>>129006678I can understand the endings of the 2nd and 3rd being described as a whimper. None other though.
>>129006709fiiiine, guess I'll give this ish one more tryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGNwFRkCI2E&list=OLAK5uy_k5BnCmVsE7jboL4PAoxoylQCk0n3mCK74&index=1
>>129006645>>129006699>female performer Not listening!
>>129006732this kills the misongynist
>>1290067123rd ends with a loud chord, but alright there's a quiet section before that. The 2nd? Nah.
>>129006753A excellent reference for what not to listen to, correct.
>>129006729I would suggest the Symphony for Solo Piano or the Sonatine instead if you wish to get into Alkan. Grande Sonate is a difficult piece to parse, the Sonatine is a torrent of melodic joy and humor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZvf_xDHxHw
now playing, time to finally try this cyclestart of Brahms: Symphony No. 1 in C Minor, Op. 68https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_ygsxV1fiE&list=OLAK5uy_mFzoDn4uEuRwPZVSsioWqMKxWVrvXwudk&index=2start of Brahms: Symphony No. 2 in D Major, Op. 73https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yQqlCVdCMc&list=OLAK5uy_mFzoDn4uEuRwPZVSsioWqMKxWVrvXwudk&index=6start of Brahms: Symphony No. 3 in F Major, Op. 90https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxFcgR4n-zg&list=OLAK5uy_mFzoDn4uEuRwPZVSsioWqMKxWVrvXwudk&index=10start of Brahms: Symphony No. 4 in E Minor, Op. 98https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY52M36YQjA&list=OLAK5uy_mFzoDn4uEuRwPZVSsioWqMKxWVrvXwudk&index=14https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mFzoDn4uEuRwPZVSsioWqMKxWVrvXwudkIf it ends up sucking, I'll either clean my ears out with the stellar Sanderling/Dresden Brahms cycle or revisit Solti/Chicago, I never did give that one a proper listen, and I quite like Solti! I guess I just like a little more poeticism in my Brahms (ex. Sanderling, Giulini, Levine, hell even Abbado) than the fierce, robust drama of Solti's usual style.
>>129006792The Sonatine is on the same album, anon!
>>129006807Looks as low IQ as Bruckner, shan't be listening!
Kurtaghttps://youtu.be/GY3yD7Nojjo
>>129006818sexist and homophobic?though disliking Seguin is totally fine
>>129006817Correct, but going through the entirety of the Grande Sonate will probably tire one out before even stepping foot on the Sonatine.
>>129006825>>129006621>>129006124>>129005666I appreciate these lesser-known, modern(ist) pieces, anon
>>129006828It's just his excuse for being lazy and low IQ himself, just ignore and move on.
>>129006825What do you think of Kurtag's Jatekok?
>>129006828We enjoy homosexuals here, except for Fagner and B.M.W. group of transgendered firetruck drivers. That man however looks to have a very small head with a very likely matching mind. We believe in physiognomy here.
>>129006830Fair point. Anyway, it is sounding better this time around, ngl. Always a fan of complex, narrative solo piano music
>>129006729>baby, you got les 4 ages...>what?>i said you got legs for days...>oh :3
>>129006188>>129006424>>129006520>>129006856>>>/metal/
>Alkan accurately noted Wagner’s unpopularity in Paris but ‘found it impossible to explain why such rubbish happened in Germany’. Apparently Alkan had met many people, artists and amateurs, who shared the same viewpoint, even if it were not openly expressed. Finally, with an appropriate verbal flourish, Alkan declared that Wagner was ‘not a musician but a sickness’.
>insult B.M.W.>he >>129006866 instantly appears againIts like my own personal summoning tool for instant (you)'s on demand.
>>129006880>>>/metal/
>>129006871Wagner raped his mind.
Fagner was gay and died of AIDS.>>129006882>>>>/metal/>>>/metal/
forgot I intended to revisit Bertini's Mahler cycle. here we gohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRzbH0OXb8U
>>129006871Correct.
The B.M.W. group of transcoded firetruck drivers with no compositional talent.
>>129006903I always liked this review of the cycle>There are almost as many interpretative approaches to Mahler's symphonies as there are conductors who tackle them. For conductors like Solti, they are virtuoso concertos for orchestra. For those like Bernstein and Tennstedt, Mahler's symphonies are a life and death struggle. For the likes of Boulez, they are simply great works of art. For others, like Kubelik and Chailly, Mahler's symphonies are great works of art depicting life and death struggle. Bertini belongs to this last group of conductors. That is not to say that his Mahler sounds just like Kubelik's or Chailly's any more than Bernstein's interpretations could be mistaken for Tennstedt's, but his general approach to the scores is similar.[...]>As a complete cycle of Mahler symphonies, Bertini's box is second to none. More consistent than Tennstedt and Chailly, better sound than Kubelik, less idiosyncratic than Bernstein, more human than Solti, this is the boxed set to buy if a boxed set you seek. All of the performances collected here have something special about them, and a few of the performances (1, 5, 7, 8, 9 and Das Lied) are a match for any other in the catalogue. In short, this cycle is an essential purchase for all Mahlerians and a superb set for beginners. Seek this out in the post-Christmas sales.https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/jan07/mahler_bertini_3402382.htmnice
>>129006903I've never listened to that. When you finish, share which ones you thought were good
>>129006918>For those like Bernstein and Tennstedt, Mahler's symphonies are a life and death struggle. For the likes of Boulez, they are simply great works of art. For others, like Kubelik and Chailly, Mahler's symphonies are great works of art depicting life and death struggle.kek
>>129006919NTA but it's probably the best complete Mahler cycle. Obviously a qualified statement since there's often better singles to substitutes but definitely worth listening to.
>>129006923Mahler received the quality of writing to be as worthy to his music.
>>129006919Oh all of it is good, it's incredibly consistent and idiomatic, one of the best starter sets one could ask for. The question is which of the performances rank among the best. The usual consensus around here is the 8th does, and I've seen one of the reviewers on ClassicsToday rank the 6th as a reference recording too. In any case, you should be downloading it right NOW to try.
>>129006857For composers like Medtner or Alkan, a single listen means nothing, and honestly anyone who says they were moved by their major complex pieces upon first listen is just an idiot. Every listen will bring you closer to clarity, another step to understanding their language, until finally you realize "ah, yes, I understand now". That being said, Alkan isn't just hard to understand structurally, but also his musical personality is odd, he rarely lacks a touch of humor or pleasantry in any piece.
>>129006930I was always told it was Kubelik.>>129006934>you should be downloading it right NOWSo you can track my IP?
>>129006963>anyone who says they were moved by their major complex pieces upon first listen is just an idiot.This applies to every single great composer that isn't minimalist, from my experience.
>>129006919the second paragraph here >>129006918 (last in the review) sums it up pretty well, that should be enough to sell you on it.but if not, see how you feel about (hopefully you're a big fan of the 2nd):https://files.catbox.moe/ubztxo.flac+https://files.catbox.moe/kk3bon.flacyes I decided to listen to the 2nd instead of the 3rd rn
This is why orchestration is so important. If you write a part that does not fit the instrument's temperament, it will sound ridiculous.
>>129006968>>you should be downloading it right NOW>So you can track my IP?hurry, I only have the NSA van on loan for a couple more hours, gogogogo
>>129007002OwO
>>129007013No but seriously, you should because it belongs in every classical fan's library.>>129006968>I was always told it was Kubelik.Kubelik's (on Audite) is quite good, with even some ranking among the best. I've personally kind of soured on it over time though -- too quick of tempo, too taut in sonority, and too rough in interpretation. But that's nitpicking when comparing among the best, I could happily listen to any recording from it right now, and it's definitely an essential recommendation, especially because it works as a nice countervailing option to Bernstein's cycle(s). Bertini's is more middle-of-the-road, which I used to find a negative but I'm coming around on it as of late; instead of seeing it as faceless, I find it as more containing the best elements of all.Anyway, everyone's tastes vary when it comes to Mahler, which is part of what makes listening to a wide array of recordings of his music so worthwhile and fun.
>>129006963The problem is I find Alkan's music lacks a hook. Outside of sounding formally complex and dense, and therefore a unique voice worth trying, there's no particular themes or moments which draw you in.
>>129006912What the fuck is this BMW shit you guys keep talking about. At first I thought it was some composers initials but now I have no idea
>>129006982True to some degree, obviously there are plenty of moments in Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart, etc that are just very enjoyable on first listen and I would believe someone would find great fondness right away. Waldstein is an instant like, how could you not be hooked in by the theme? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKPBJp8Et_4&list=OLAK5uy_lgCdv8Ab9N-LDdSJv9r793GBFmahcoaXAMedtner and Alkan are (usually) more like Hammerklavier or Appassionata, you have to mull it over and return to them again and again to actually enjoy it. Maybe you find something about it catching, or feel an affinity to them on first listen, but you aren't sure why until you come back for your fifth helping. Alkan and Medtner are especially dense and peculiar in this regard, and unlike symphonies, there isn't much else to latch onto for novelty or sentimentality. So with that in mind it becomes a bit more obvious that perhaps these two are more similar to something like the Grosse Fuge, in which very few are actually willing to listen to compared to the mainstay of Beethoven's catalog. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS_V4ds67NI >>129007083>I find Alkan's music lacks a hookAlso very, very frequently said of Medtner! Yet ask yourself, what hook exists in Appassionata? In the Grosse Fuge? There are no easy hooks, only the ever flowing structure.
Any suggestions? >>129006465
>>129007146Yes classical era was notable for being instantly appealing. The entire reason why it stands apart from baroque/romantic is because of clarity, balance.>>129007146>Appassionata? In the Grosse Fuge?There are plenty of hooks in both desu. The main theme in the first movement, the lyrical second movement and ultra-catchu 3rd, to me it's the hookiest Beethoven sonata. Grosse fuge is likewise full of hooks, but they are harder to comprehend and need much more time to digest.
>>129006732how many vaginas have you seen in your life
>>129006856>We believe in physiognomy here.we aren't that stupid quite yet
>>129007299You wish, in the future AI will be able to tell your IQ, sexuality, and status in life from face alone. It can already tell gender just from an image of a sole eye, which to humans is thought of to be non-gendered. Physiognomy is real, we just are not smart enough to figure out a systematization for it yet.
>>129007131it's unfunny nonsense so just ignore it
>>129007131>he doesn't knowNGMI
>>129007131It stands for Buxtehude, Monteverdi, (Cmv) Weber
>>129007255>>There are plenty of hooks in both desu.If those have hooks, then so does Alkan or Medtner, especially Alkan - who is very influenced by classical era- has much better "hooks" than anything in either Appassionata or god forbid Grosse Fuge. You know what? No. Sorry, I can't even take this hypothetical seriously, just pure Beethoven idolization to even pretend like Grosse Fuge has any sort of easy hook to it. If you think Appassionata or Grosse Fuge have great "hooks", then you would think the same of Medtner or Alkan, and if you don't, then you are just a biased normalfag who worships idols he is told to, instead of having any real critical thought of his own. >classical era was notable for being instantly appealingWell, maybe if you listened to that era, you would have heard it in appearing in Alkan's themes.
>>129007354>then you would think the same of Medtner or Alkan,I do, no need to get so uppity.
>>129007365Then I have no idea what the purpose of your previous post was.
>>129007368You said there were no hooks in Appassionata, when it has more hooks than almost any other composer or piece, which was a weird claim. I'm not sure what "hooks" are for you, but this is what I call a proper hook https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXGtCBO71fg
>>129007376I see, well, you are free to think whatever delusions you like, the rest of the world will continue listening to Clair de Lune: an actual hook that magnetizes even those who know nothing about music.
>>129007392you're describing a specific type of hook then
Who has better tastes in recordings: /classical/, Gramophone, talkclassical or Hurwitz?
I hate reformating quotes from books.>>129007439Not really, a hook is something instantaneously enjoyable solely on its own merit. Think of something like Pictures at an Exhibition, its complete dogshit, but just a good tune alone managed to convince people otherwise.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxg2R0Pqb3cAppassionata has a good theme, but its not very good by itself; people confuse a self-sufficient melody with a theme, the theme is instead a commandment for further validation. Medtner shall clarify:>In the work of the greatest masters, the melodic form of the theme so often impresses us as the culmination of their thematic inspiration, the lesser masters with their sickly-sweet melodies often impress us in exactly the opposite way. In their works the melodic form, in becoming self-sufficient, degenerates into a melodic scheme and does not contain in itself the potentiality for development that belongs to the melodic themes of the great masters. Such melodies we can no longer call themes. They have not been preceded by any contemplation, intuition, or inspiration, Mostly, they are fabricated like confections, to satisfy the taste of a public that is easily satisfied,>Such melodies usually lead in their trail also an extreme poverty of all the other elements and senses. Their whole encirclement: harmony, cadences, modulation - can all be reduced to the most primitive schemes and show practically no motion, Such an incessant drumming on the tonic and dominant, such a metronomic hammering out of the most stereotyped accompaniment, has a pretension to simplicity, But pretension to simplicity is not a genuine gravitation toward it. Simplicity that is wilfully borrowed, that it, as it were, stolen for a definite purpose, is not artistic simplicity - the object of loving contemplation or the outcome. of complex coordination
>>129007507they all have the same tastes pretty much.
>>129007523I asked AI to guess which composers he likely meant, and I've never heard of either:Since no names are mentioned for these "lesser masters," here is an educated guess of up to 20 composers (primarily from the late 19th and early 20th centuries) whose popular salon-style piano pieces or light music often feature the exact traits Medtner critiques: overly sweet, catchy-but-static melodies; repetitive tonic-dominant harmonies; simple, hammering accompaniments (e.g., alberti bass or oompah patterns); and a calculated "simplicity" aimed at broad appeal rather than deep development. These were common in drawing-room music of the era:Charles WillebyTheodor OestenSidney SmithÉmile Waldteufel (waltz king, beyond Strauss)Paul WachsBenjamin GodardCécile Chaminade (some popular morsels)Fritz SpindlerAdolfo FumagalliLuigi ArditiÉmile PessardAnton StrelezkiGustave LangeCarl BöhmEduard HolstFelix ArndtZez Confrey (novelty ragtime-adjacent)May OstlereEllen TorringtonAlberto Jonás (some lighter works)These represent the kind of ephemeral, confection-like salon repertoire that flooded the market in Medtner's time—pretty, accessible, and often mechanically repetitive—which he saw as the antithesis of true artistic inspiration. Medtner admired depth in figures like Rachmaninoff (despite some reservations elsewhere) and scorned outright modernists like Schoenberg or Stravinsky in other parts of the book, but the "pretended simplicity" passage targets populist light music rather than avant-garde complexity.
>>129007661Medtner never mentioned any names for anyone he disliked, he doesn't even make heavy implications of specific composers to reference people without name (although you can probably guess he hated all serialists, sonorists, etc which he doesn't even call them that, and I am not sure that name for them existed yet). Hes a very classy fellow uninterested in attacking specific composers, only on the ideas or rather zeitgeist of his time.>If we strip rhythm to the point of its complete elimination from the fullness of the musico-sonorous material, we will get either the rolling of drums, or the castanets, or a negro dance; while the strict harmony of a church chorale, which is carried seemingly to a point of a complete neutralization of rhythm, only underlines the fundamental senses of music. Of course, rhythm is a very substantial element of the musical art. A neglect of this element makes musical form the prose, and not the poetry of sound. As such prose we must view every type of music that attempts to eliminate the measure of bars, or that wantonly changes it at every step.>But no matter how we may protest against such neglect, we need not worry about the rhythm of music so long as it lives in our pulsation, in the dance, in poetry, and finally in the innumerable phenomena of life and nature. In spite of isolated attempts of certain contemporaries to dispense with the division into bars or interrupt and change it at every step, we nevertheless see that, in general, contemporary music, which is mostly intended for performance by large groups, never-the-less does not dare to entrust to them the unmeasured material of sounds. But this is just the point: measured sonorous material alone does not give a composition the right to be called musical poetry, (in the same way as the measure of words does not make poetry).
i can't think of a percussive instrument that belongs in art musici'm sure such an instrument exists, but i don't know of it
The self-sufficient melody or "hook" is in a state of being.The theme is only as such while in a state of becoming. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDl-v_sD2uMPedal fortepianos was the best form of piano, Alkan had everything right. Modern pianos are muddy slop, and the pedals should have always been there, just as organs had. >>129007870Piano, xylophone (and its many alternatives), celesta, etc. What you mean is unpitched instruments don't belong in art music.
>no BABIAA in this thread>no platonically moral music>no charming Haydn>Just romantislopLets change that, and banish reddit from this threadhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR_jU_U1gPo&list=RDWR_jU_U1gPo&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW9ETPHMci4&list=RDoW9ETPHMci4&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPO1Hw2ifhM&list=RDSPO1Hw2ifhM&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtgVw5y1Vo&list=RDDAtgVw5y1Vo&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qc6n4wbD1Y&list=RD2Qc6n4wbD1Y&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgy4XfmaSNMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5l_f9b59Is&list=RDO5l_f9b59Is&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPUViIicA4A&list=RDuPUViIicA4A&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8L_c1mx8gw&list=RDd8L_c1mx8gw&start_radio=1
number mass or through composed mass?
>>129008278glagolithian mass
>>129008278>massPass.
>>129005417Best recording of Chopin's Nocturne in C Sharp Minor arranged for Cello?
I swear to you every day this general tries to ruin my enjoyment of music and fails
>>129007628> they all have the same tastes pretty much./classical/ likes Hilary Hahn a lot less than other places. There are some other differences, I'm sure.
Salieri set the music world back 60 years by poisoning mozart. He deserves to have his name forgotten
>>129008760Thank you retard.
What killed classical music ultimately? Was is minimalism, schoenburg, uncreatively, IQ drop? A mix?
>>129008778Decadence and cultural decline across the entirety of the western world. In case you haven't noticed: philosophy, literature, and art have all died as well.
>>129008789Philosophy and literature at least had some good writers up until the 80s. Can't say the same thing about good musicians
>>129008803>had some good writers up until the 80sLol.Lmao.
>>129008778Look up adorno and the frankfurt school. They plotted and financed the destruction of classical music and pushed low IQ pop music in its steed
>>129008843You can tell how evil he is just by those black husks of eyes
>>129008760Mozart is easily the most over rated composer in history. Over 800 works but how many of them are actually worth listening to? A dozen or so?He desperately needed quality control. Salieri did the world a favor
>>129008843This is irrefutable proof that the conspiracy theorists who blame critical theory and the Frankfurt School for everything they detest about modernity (gosh, I wish they'd been half as influential as that) have never read any of their works.Adorno's Kulturindustrie is still the fiercest critique of popular music there is, and you won't find a more articulate or passionate defender of Beethoven than him in this century.Far from supporting relativism, critical theory, especially the Dialektik der Aufklärung, is a defense of the universal values of the enlightenment. Marxists are also the fiercest critics of post-structuralism and "post-modern" thinking and other idealist/nominalist ideologies.TL;DR: If you hate pop music, read Adorno's Culture Industry. If you like Beethoven, read Adorno's Beethoven Fragments. Just read Adorno.
>>129008778IQ decline, objectively and empirically. All other answers, no matter how convincing they may sound, are directly in relation to the IQ decline as well.
>>129008957Thats bullshit, there are still smart people in the world but they lack creativity. IQ isn't the be all and end all
>>129008957>IQ decline,Let's hope AI can change that (even if it kills us, we're stupid so fuck it).
Weininger:>[Wagner is] the greatest man since Christ’s time
>>129009039Where should I start with him. Recommend me something that isn't an opera
>>129008936>he really likes beethoven blah blah hes a real classical lover blah blahYou mean he pushed for avant-slop, which killed classical, and then the rest of his tribe pushed popslop as the replacement to classical after they killed it with Schoenberg 12 tone garbage.
>>129008980>there are still smart people in the world That does not contradict declining intelligence/average IQ. There are less highly intelligent people per capita than there were 100-150 years ago, we know that for certain. >they lack creativity.Creativity and IQ are in strong positive correlation, what you are saying is nonsense.
>>129009052https://youtu.be/RJNNJTRD1GQWagner's first symphony is a masterpiece and the unique flow of music which would characterise his mature works is already apparent in bud.Better than everything by Mahler.
>>129009052>Recommend me something that isn't an opera
>>129009108>Open Fagner symphony>Literally the very first notes are already pompous and bombasticTop kek, turned that dogshit off right away.
>>129009159Wagner overwhelmed you.
>>129009185I have overwhelmed by his lack of nuance, subtlety, and heterosexuality. Correct. Thank god he died of AIDS.
>Bruckner 7 adagio theme A>theme B
>>129009090>after they killed it with Schoenberg 12 tone garbage.Postmodernism and atonality are entirely different things. Atonality and the associated 12 tone system was a method to preserve tradition in the face of increasing Wagnerian influence that threw the rigours of common practice theory out the window, exchanging it for mere parsimonious voice-leading between tertian chords. Wagner was the true "Musik Entartete" ironically enough. What Schoenberg wanted to do was wrest hyper-chromatic hyper-modulatory late-romantic musical from the mythology that it logically descended from German music traditions, as opposed to the exhuberance of Fagner himself by putting it into its own framework so that people who made such music would eventually have a system by which to derive it. He knew a cork had to be put into the dam to get the Wagnerian waters and the Brahmsian waters (of the German tradition) flowing in their respective channels. So by making the language that contained the more emotional Wagnerian approach with its own intellectualism, he restored order to the future direction of music. Now this board blames him for ruining music tradition when he actually did his best to preserve it, because he's a Jew. Whether or not he had any success is another story. Meanwhile earlets and brainlets on 4chan think Wagner is traditional music because they like how it sounds better (as if such barbaric populism should matter). Rather it was more white*ids like John Cage (who Schoenberg, in teaching him, actually tried to graciously discourage from being a composer unless he would dedicate himself to the refining of his harmonic ear), Pierre Boulez and Karlheinz Stockhausen who decided to completely take an axe to tradition and anything good and decent.tl;dr: apologize
Fagnerspammer kind of gives me Ratthew vibes, same sort of spammy non-cognizant bot-like behavior.
>>129009225Heil Schoneberg and the international jewery.
>>129009225We would prefer if both Fagner and Schoenberg didn't exist.
Wagner was a proto-nazi. I will not listen to an anti-Semite. If he was around today he would be pro-Israel
Free atonality was the greatest invention in music and arts since tonality, but strict atonality is a failed experiment.
>>129009227It started because of a prolific Wagnerite who posted frequently here back in 2020/21 and used to take the bait a lot when people made Wagner posts. It eventually became a self-sustaining meme. Things like the specific focus on Meistersinger and its Bach influence you still see in some copypasta are the product of those arguments. Believe it or not, the sisterposter (rip) didn't used to be the only person who made Wagnersister jokes. In many ways he and the Wagner/"W." poster(s) are remnants of that period.
>>129009261I know the reasons for it, but its also clearly almost entirely one guy still spamming it day in day out.
So we all agree that Webern > Schoenberg > Berg, right?
>>129009304noit's more likeSchoenberg > Webern > Berg
>>129009304I think all of us agree that if you put any of their compositions on and randomized the name of the composer, no one could tell the difference.
Webernhttps://youtu.be/j8Sg1R4Stow
Schoenberghttps://youtu.be/MKDgaMrbn_E
Berghttps://youtu.be/w7ohcKQst4U
>>129009261>the sisterposter (rip)wait what happened to him
>>129009304Exact opposite. Berg was the heart and soul of SVS. Webern is an inexcusable, soulless garbage.
>>129009327>picks his earliest compositions before he went full 12 tone memeBad faith post. This is actual Webern https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r29_vMzRF8, which is the same garbage as >>129009339>>129009352>operaBad faith post.This is actual Berg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKAVN5ZUdbw, which is the same garbage as >>129009339
>>129009379>12 tone>heart and soulWhat did he mean by this?
>>129005417Looks like 2026 is going to be a Brahms year for me.
>>129009404Nta but Berg snuck major and minor chords into his 12 tone rows. He was basically cheating. That, and the fact that he was much more popular with audiences, absolutely triggered Schoenberg. That makes him based in my eyes.
>Schoenberg, Reich, Glass, Ligetij*wish hence cringe>Berg, Webern, Boulez, Cagenot j*wish hence based
Discussion of the merits of each 12 tone composer and their comparisons is at the level of deceitful placebo as wine drinking is. Blind test the average 12 tone "fan" and put on any string quartet, no one would have any idea who any composer was.
>>129009404>t.hasn't even listened to Berg
>>129009442I doubt that but whatever helps you cope, anon.
>>129009476Yeah sure, just like you can smell the cinnamon cherry top notes of your Chateau Cheval Blanc and determine the origins of its grapes through your crafted palette.
>>129009442I wonder, is this the guy who refused to guess if the performer is female/male earlier with a random recording? hahahah
>>129009495All me :)
>>129009492Wouldn't know anything about that specifically.
>>129009516Have you been diagnosed for autism by chance? No judgment if so.
>>129009257I don't know about that, free atonality is still very meandering and sometimes rather alienating. Sure its not as terrible as twelve tone, but I would prefer no burn at all over a 2nd or 3rd degree.
>>129009627If you prefer no burn, go listen to pop music. If music doesn't burn, torture and kill you, then what's the point?
>>129009637If you prefer heavy burns why don't you just go listen to Merzbow and stop pretending you enjoy music at all?
>>129009644Merzbow is not music. It doesn't burn, it doesn't even sting.
>>129009653>Merzbow is not music.And neither is Webern.
>>129009663That's because Webern was obsessed with strict 12 tone nonsense.
>>129009671The end result of chasing atonal slop.
>>129009374Finally had sex (with a wagnersister) and died of AIDS.
I find above all that the expression, atonal music, is most unfortunate — it is on a par with calling flying the art of not falling, or swimming the art of not drowning.
Some modern composers have been critical. Pierre Boulez dismissed Shostakovich's music as "the second, or even third pressing of Mahler."[78] The Romanian composer and Webern disciple Philip Gershkovich called Shostakovich "a hack in a trance."[79] A related complaint is that Shostakovich's style is vulgar and strident: Stravinsky wrote of Lady Macbeth: "brutally hammering ... and monotonous."[80] English composer and musicologist Robin Holloway described his music as "battleship-grey in melody and harmony, factory-functional in structure; in content all rhetoric and coercion."[81]In the 1980s, the Finnish conductor and composer Esa-Pekka Salonen was critical of Shostakovich and refused to conduct his music. For instance, he said in 1987:Shostakovich is in many ways a polar counter-force for Stravinsky. [...] When I have said that the 7th symphony of Shostakovich is a dull and unpleasant composition, people have responded: "Yes, yes, but think of the background of that symphony." Such an attitude does no good to anyone.[82]
>>129008778Arrival of other, more exciting forms of entertainment.
>>129009748>Webern disciple Philip Gershkovich called Shostakovich "a hack in a trance.The idea of anyone related to Webern calling anyone else a hack is laughable.
>>129009339Ill never be able to get into this atonal 12 tone shit
>>129009748Shosta's 24 preludes and fugues BTFO'd every modernist who ever lived, fortunately or not.
https://youtu.be/SosR9IQS_HoMasterpiece.
>>129009768but true
not usually into classical slop but this came up on my algo.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT91esZK90IIm just wondering what the point of the conductor is, the musicians are clearly ignoring him and it looks like he is just autistically self masturbating about how he is commanding them , probably has a butt plug in to.
>>129009881Thank you retard.
>>129009881Its more of a tradition thing at this point and for the audience. The conductor is there to make sure they get it right in practice (telling one section they are too loud or whatever). They aren't needed in the performance but are there as a kind of showcase.
/classical/ isn't really qualified to discuss 20th century music, we should stick to Wagner and Brahms
I wanted to post a hot take, Mozarts operas are better than Beethovens symphonies and Wagners operas are better than Brahms symphonies, but Wagnerschizo has ruined the joy of it for me
>>1290100091. Operas suck, Beethoven's symphonies rule.2. Brahms is the GOAT (next to Chopsticks) operas suck.
>>129010028Correct.
Scelsihttps://youtu.be/Yi5kbDJDZDQ
>>129009881He's keeping everyone in time/rhythm and reminding who (instrument) and how(volume) and when(measure) should play. If you don't listen to classical music, you simply don't like music at all, consider going back to whichever cave you crawled out from. Or stay and listen to Beethoven all day, for the rest of the week.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ufv1sqFkU&list=OLAK5uy_nVzocc1b4RkG1fBRpl_TTfUQCdx7Ugxq8&index=2
>>129010047We prefer his piano works here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOPveiG6q2k
>>129009276It's more than one guy.
>>129009881The majority of a condutor's work happens in rehearsals.
>>129010136There is the guy who generates AI versions of wagnerschizo for laughs, sure, once in a blue moon someone writes a new version mocking the wagnerschizo, sure, but the vast majority of it is just one guy copypasting an infinite source of of pastas. You can tell because the spam comes in waves, an on/off flood situation means its a singular spammer, not a collection of people.
Saxophones are actually very beautiful instruments but jazztards ruined their reputation by blowing as loudly as possible and ruining its tone and timbre making it associated with annoying ass music
Symphonies rule, operas drool.
Wherefore does the enchanted forest sing its secrets to me? It tells me now that I am the king of the once and future world. The lark trills, the eagle screams, and the giggling nymphs bathe in the supernaturally blue waters of the Oracular Pool. I step forward to receive their vision, and lo! Ancient dragons, fairy castles! The yodelling bard walks a weary road, calling out for knights of faith to hear his melancholy and redeem the tragic renunciate with a sword of justice! The whole world is lost and reconquered before my very eyes.Alas, it is over too soon! This is but a foretaste of what awaits the pilgrim soul when he surrenders to the genius of Richard Wagner.https://youtu.be/iXUjuxF2oIY
I too, worship Wagner, but only on the special occassions: when I feel like a masochist.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-k-Hrbr_RQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0SxQT-bybAW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iRAq6M9v-ITerrible.
There is a conspiracy of Brahmsians trying to make Wagner look bad.
Had Wagner composed a symphony instead of Meistersinger and Parsifal (both terrible except the former's overture), we'd have flying cars by now.
>>129010295Wagner can do that just fine by himself.
The only people who care about a Brahms vs Fagner debate are Fagnarians.
The Fagnerian is falseflagging to make Brahmsians look bad.
>>129010295*Brahmscucks
Brahms already looked bad.
>>129010321Correct. The absolute dreadfully incoherent babble that comes out of his mouth is honestly the main reason I came to dislike him. Nietzsche might be a linguist hack who talked shit instead of actually having any rational structure, but Fagner literally couldn't write a single coherent paragraph, and if by some miracle it is in some manner, then he will contradict himself by the last sentence of it.
What if Wagner had won? What would Brahmsians dom
>>129010354Wagner raped the world.
>>129010260Just replying to myself, but holy fuck this sucks so bad. What an awful hack.
>>129010354Wagner undeniably won. In cultural history he provided *something* here, whereas Brahms in this sphere is an irrelevant product of its day. A practical void of content. As true and lasting as twitter subculture for our society. But any comparison of the music itself will show an obvious superior, and cultural victor, as well. As the numerous quotes from important personages of musical history will show.
>>129010386better than webern
>>129010310The most tragic loss was not getting Wagner's late overtures and symphonies which he was planning at the time of his death.>Today he hit upon the idea of suggesting to Schott six overtures, which he intends to write starting next year, against an advance of 10,000 florins. Once before he promised me to write these overtures—“Lohengrin’s Ocean Voyage,” “Tristan the Hero.” and “Dirge for Romeo and Juliet.” The others he does not yet know.>He complains with indescribable humor that now, when he has to compose Kundry, nothing comes into his head but cheerful themes for symphonies. Then he speaks of the canon, in which each singer has to follow the other, the first gets annoyed and growls a bit, then continues, only to get annoyed again when the others follow him. He says he will call his symphonies “symphonic dialogues,” for he would not compose four movements in the old style; but theme and countertheme one must have, and allow these to speak to each other. There is nothing of that kind in the whole of Brahms’s symphony, he says.>he leaves me with the words, echoing Frederick the Great, “Now I am going to collect fuyards [refugees].” He means all the musical ideas which he has hastily written down; he told me yesterday that most of all he would like to write some symphonies, gay and cheerful works in which he would not venture at all far, but he feels a real need to give vent to this side of himself.>R. did some work, but complained at lunch about his task: “I should like to be writing symphonies, in which I could write down ideas as they come into my mind, for I have no lack of ideas.” Over coffee he says to me, “I should return to the old symphonic form, one movement with an andante in the middle; since Beeth. one can no longer write symphonies in four movements, for they just look like imitations—if, for example, one were to write such extended scherzos.”
Bartok sonata, sounds exactly like you would imagine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xv5ykr9RrM>>129010408True, but literally anyone is better than Webern. Shostakovich has the worst piano sonata I've heard, I wasn't expecting much, maybe some aggressive chords and such, but its just totally and utterly lifeless - simultaneously boring and irritating at the same time. Garbage.
Webern expressed more thematic development in 1 minute than Shostakovich could in half an hour.
>>129009225>. Rather it was more white*ids like John Cage (who Schoenberg, in teaching him, actually tried to graciously discourage from being a composer unless he would dedicate himself to the refining of his harmonic ear)kek
>>129010515Webern never produced a single piece of actual music after his first Op.
>>129010394LOL @the cope. Brahms won, deal with it sister.
>>129010547>>129010394>>129010354Why did you just reply to yourself, Iass?
>>129010260Which is why I only praise his 24 Preludes and Fugues when it comes to Shosta's piano music. And his piano concertos.
webern was making tik-tok music
>>129010515A random measure of Shostakovich's fugue is worth trillion Webern pieces.
One dot of ink on a Brahms manuscript is worth a gazillion morbillion brazillion Wagner pieces.
>>129010595Correct.
>>129010595I bet that knockoff Beethoven 9th symphony you call "Brahms's 1st symphony" is tickling your prostate as we speak.
>>129010606>knockoff Beethoven symphonyBut enough about Fagner's sad attempt at writing a symphony.
>>129010606I'm actually listening to this right now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQHR_Z8XVvI which, incidentally, is also worth more than anything Wagner produced.
>>129010595>From a letter to his wife in 1904: "All I can say of him [Brahms] is that he's a rather puny little dwarf with a narrow chest. Good Lord, if a breath from the lungs of Richard Wagner whistled about his ears he would scarce be able to keep his feet. But I don't mean to hurt his feelings."
Wagner should've impregnated every woman.
Wagner should've impregnated every woman and man.
>>129010555I mean idk, this sounds more like a really annoying Etude than something I would actually want to listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcs0pROR8MU
Wagner impregnated a man and died of AIDS.
Wagner impregnated me.
Wagner impregnated my mind.
Kagelhttps://youtu.be/SZHbrflvWZw
Wagner was impregnated by Brahms.
wagner doesn't exist
"[Berlioz] needs a poet to fill him through and through, a poet who is driven by ecstasy to violate him, and who is to him what man is to woman." But the poet Wagner had in mind for this job of violating Berlioz was Wagner himself.
>W*gner mentioned 51 times>Brahms mentioned 27 times, despite his editionTime to change that. Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms Brahms
The War of the Romantics is basically just the collective dog piling of the entire world of musical talent on Brahms. I mean, who else do they have.. Joachim? Hanslick (lol)? It's a really embarrassing episode in the history of classical music. The more one reads about it the more one sees this. Like the record amounts of copium needed to keep declaring, for literal decades, 'this Wagner swindle will soon be over' and equivalent variants.
>>129010708Brahms was always superior though.
>>129010515Facts.
>>129010740Even Brahms knew he was insignificant:>I remember from a conversation with Frau Schumann how she, for her part, evaluated the first movement [of the First Symphony]. She found little outstanding about the ideas of the first part of the Allegro; only with the so-called development in the second part was the music thrilling and significant. Moreover, in the second subject she discovered a reminiscence of Schumann’s Manfred Overture. She explained that when she expressed this to him one day, Brahms retorted with irritation: “Yes, I know, of course, that I have no individuality” [“Ja, ich weiss ja, dass ich keine Individualität habe.”]
I can't remember who norseposter suggested for a non-hiss recording of this, so whatever, putting on the zimzam I guess.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Wriv-QEtE
>>129010630It's somewhat of an acquired taste but it does come.
Wagner was like 5'3", that's all you need to know about him
>>129010969Post your top ten piano composers.
Just dropping in to give my two cents on how to fix your guys genre. All these Mozarts and Handels have no dynamic range, especially in the low end. Something like an 808 would drastically improve an orchestra. non electric subcontrabass intruments suck ass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug86LiuHbkI
>>129011002Thank you retard.
>>129010354To my mind, Wagner's the clear winner. Just the other day I was watching a movie with a friend, I think it might have been a Marvel film, and I started smiling to myself. My friend asked what was so funny, and I explained to him the whole brouhaha regarding Wagner and programmatic music. I told him it started with Gluck, who believed music should be subservient to, or at least support the text and drama. Music for music's sake, which was the prevailing practice in Italian opera during the day, was roundly rejected by Gluck. He then came out with his first reform opera "Orfeo", which demonstrated his idea of subjugating the music to the drama. Gluck's idea was scorned at first, but then began to rapidly find followers, and a hundred years later Wagner picked up this idea, refined, polished and advanced it to his theory of "Gesamtkunstwerk", meaning the music is no longer a stand alone feature, but rather one element of the entire dramatic work. He envisioned his operas to be complete works of art consisting of different individual elements such as the music, instruments, the singers, the stage work, the lighting, the text, etc. Each on its own is meaningless, but when put together, they all produce a glorious piece of dramatic work. And this Marvel film I was watching epitomized Wagner's theory to the fullest. You had the action on screen, the spoken text, and throughout it all was the orchestra in the background, not overpowering the drama but perfectly supporting it. Whenever a character was about to enter the scene, the orchestra introduced his/her theme in the background. Whenever something sinister was about to happen, you pretty much figured it out because the orchestra was there to warn you. It was no different from a Wagner opera. And what of Brahms? He's still around, but relegated mostly nowadays to pretty piano music.
Stockhausenhttps://youtu.be/34_SfP7ZCXA
>>129010984chopinlisztbeethovenbachschumannbrahmsprokofievschubertdebussyfaureThat said, Shostakovich's Op. 87 is the greatest piano work of the 20th century.
>>129011077>schubert>faureThis has got to be cap.
>>129011077>That said, Shostakovich's Op. 87 is the greatest piano work of the 20th century.No, Boulez's 2nd sonata is
>>129011077An unremarkable list, and a statement of grand delusion. Boring!>>129011091Faure is more valid than Shubert.
>>129011037did this dude have schizophrenia, what the fuck am I listening to
>>129011121>An unremarkable list, and a statement of grand delusion. Boring!This is classical, any accurate list is gonna be unremarkable. The best stuff rises to the top. What, you thought I was gonna name Janacek?
>>129011124Unironically yes.
>>129011124 In 1955, Stockhausen received a commission from West German Radio (WDR) to compose a work for electronics and orchestra. After 2 months in Switzerland he resurfaced with a new composition which didn't actually have any electronics in it, but was partly inspired by concepts he'd explored in electronic works such as GESANG DER JÜNGLINGE (which he was also working on at the same time). Additionally, since this new work featured up to 3 different tempo layers at the same time, it required 3 separately-conducted orchestra groups. This was because it was frankly impractical to have 1 conductor beat out 3 tempos at the same time (though this could be possible in a tape piece). After realizing that he could place the 3 orchestra groups to the left, center and right of the audience, Stockhausen took advantage of the spatial possibilities of passing timbres from orchestra to orchestra in different dynamic shapes, speeds, densities and directions.
>>129011133>any accurate list is gonna be unremarkableIn the mind of a normalfag, probably. Piano composer lists have a very wide range of possibilities to them.
>>129011144The tempo, durations and pitch fields of GRUPPEN are all derived from a single sequence of 12 pitches (see 1st measure below). This GRUPPEN tone row includes all 12 pitches of the chromatic scale and was designed to include all 11 possible intervals between 2 notes (minor 2nd, major 2nd, minor 3rd, etc...). There are other reasons behind the choice of this pitch sequence (such as the use of a tritone as a transposition pivot and it's 2 hexachord retrograde nature) but perhaps the most interesting is one proposed by Sara Ann Overholt. In her thesis on GRUPPEN (later published as a book) she describes finding Stockhausen's actual signature in this tone row. The way Stockhausen embeds his name is not as simple as how J.S. Bach and Shostakovich had done this in some of their works, however. It's a pretty complex process bordering on outright numerology but the first step is to assign KARLHEINZSTOCKHAUSEN to 2 and a half rows of 12 numbers with alphabet letters assigned to each of the 26 numbers. Once the letters of Stockhausen's name is assigned a number, then the notes of the GRUPPEN tone row can be further teased out with some phrase rearrangement ("L-HAUSEN-KARLHEINZ-STOCK-R"). I've never read of Stockhausen mentioning that his name was in this tone row, but it's a very enticing theory.
ChopinBachBeethovenMozartRachmaninoffBartokBrahmsLisztCPESchönberg
>>129011164A closer look at the first 2 GRUPPEN tone rows in the above time structure diagram is below. "Proport." (in blue) shows the proportions derived from the changing pitches of the GRUPPEN pitch row. Being proportions, these overlap, so that's why multiple orchestra groups are needed. "Tempi" is derived from the chromatic tempo scale (12 speeds, 60 to 120 bpm) and matched to the pitches. "Zahlwert" (values) is the basic duration based on the octave register of each note. "Gruppen-nummer" is the Group number. "Einschub" is a special "insert" group which is like an interlude outside of the large scale serial structure (more on that below).
Abbado's Mahler cycle (Berlin)
Writing my first symphony with the help of chatgpt. Im going to become the first great composer of the 21st century
>>129011324>>129011324Neat. Which contemporary composers do you like or are you inspired by?
MedtnerAlkanBeethovenHaydnBach BuxtehudeFrescobaldiHandelScriabinD. Scarlatti>>129011188>Bartok>SchönbergYou are worse than the last fellow.
Brahmshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmH5X7bZDnc&list=OLAK5uy_lYr5stpIUuD_CCdoK4Ey3DSCd5bYp-rFc&index=23
>>129011324I hate to break it to you code monkey, but AI software will not make you a composer.
>>129011395Nancarrow, Wuorinen, and Cage. I'm trans btw.
>>129011709>I'm trans btw.Based Wagerian.
>>129010984(assume we don't count keyboard composers from before the piano was invented)BeethovenMozartHaydnSchubertBrahmsSchumannBartokSorabji (i know i know)ScriabinMedtner
Why does it feel like most composers are just writing down those musical hallucinations we all have when we listen to too much music. Like anyone can do counterpoint wankery on a melody they thought of in the shower
>>129011742>Bartok>ShubertFar worse than Sorabji. We do respect the Medtner addition thoughever. That being said, having Sorabji and Skrjabin while not having Busoni and having junk like Bartok there is highly suspect. Also seeing as how everyone added Bach, we are adding all keyboards onto our lists >>129011429
>>129011772Write down one of your hallucinations and do counterpoint wankery to it and post the result.
>>129011788damn why such hate for Bartok (and Schubert even)
>>129010028Sorry but Figaro is better than all of Brahms and that will never change
>>129011795he won't because he can't.
I swear youre all fucking brainlets imagine complaining about Schuberts inclusion holy hell. Give up classical isnt for you go listen to fucking dance music disgusting clowns. Wagnerschizo was right about you lot you deserve him
>>129011429your playlist when you're progressing through larger and larger dildos?
>>129011829Don't have a problem with Bartok, but when you are discussing the greatest piano composers of all time, why the FUCK are we even mentioning his name? What does he have for solo compositions? A single sonata that is very Bartokian in nature, and then... a load of miniature folk tunes? Even if you were going to stick to romantislop, how does beat Rach, Prokofiev, Chopin, Debussy, Ravel, etc? You can't even say he's just not interested in that style because he has Schumann for Chopin and Sorabji/Scriabin for the impressionists. No Busoni, no Alkan, but we have Bartok... Disgracefull...>>129011899Shubert's piano music was forgotten about for 150 years, I believe Rach didn't even know it existed. Enough fucking said.>b-but Bach!Was never totally forgotten like the myths preset, and Shubert has always been popular, it just no one gave a shit about his piano tunes.
Discussions about the greatest piano composers of all time should include concertos in their considerations.
>>129011943This, but the complete opposite. We are discussing piano favoritism in all its glory, not chamber music that happens to include a piano as the main instrument.
>>129011795I'm not going to spend the time writing more than 4 bars. It feels like people like Bach are just wanking off a melody and that it isn't some 400IQ genius behind all the noteshttps://vocaroo.com/1kIytZtemA17
>>129011912No, thats when I listen to Mahler, Bruckner, and Fagner.
>>129012075dog shit.
>>129012097yeah no shit. composers do the same thing but the difference is they put more time and effort into it
>>129012116Composers of old received their music directly from God. There was no hallucination, it was divine intervention.
new>>129012261>>129012261>>129012261
the vagner meme
>>129012263early thread
>>129012273no
