Koechlin Editionhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqLdITP6HO0This thread is for the discussion of music in the Western (European) classical tradition, as well as classical instrument-playing.>How do I get into classical?This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:https://rentry.org/classicalgenPreviously, on /classical/: >>130136461
Is it true that 19th century opera singers used minimal vibrato?
>>130171997>t.
Mahler's symphonies are the definition of kitsch. I can't listen to them without cringing.
>>130172089I love kitsch
>>130172182I never understood the 'anthropomorphic animals are kitsch' thing. It just seems like a funny drawing.
>>130172182what a cute little boy cat oh what joy
>>130169574Based, Fuck Bruckner, Fuck Mahler, Fuck Brahms, and fuck all g*rman incel composers.
>>130171997from the little we have recorded of them, no, but they were much less wobbly in their vibrato. 18h century singers apparently did seem to use less vibrato, however, from what has heen written on the subject
vocal vibrato is poor taste
>>130172089This and the whole "Mahler's symphonies are neurotic" criticisms I will never understand. I never got either impression.The most I can meet you on is they have a sense of self-consciousness about them, which is what you're really describing, but that's all modernism!
Are there any organ pieces similar to this one?https://youtu.be/RduLr1Cp9Ls?si=WhgxvO9ZEw4FZK2J
>>130169987https://files.catbox.moe/h5bib5.flaccheck outhttps://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler4.htm
>>130169987If I could only have one, it'd be Tilson-Thomas'. I don't like it when it's too fast.
>>130169987Ivan Fischer
The fruits, genetics, and tradition of the Franco-Flemish genius distilled into one Belgian Expatriate, bow before the greatest contrapuntalist after Bachhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK3TeWqSAZk&list=RDPK3TeWqSAZk&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOc6mPf3mXM&list=RDbOc6mPf3mXM&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLhQhRc9mZk&list=RDwLhQhRc9mZk&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OeSKqlu7bs&list=RD7OeSKqlu7bs&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D68QpTmamBs&list=RDD68QpTmamBs&start_radio=1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4dtBmKygg4&list=RDV4dtBmKygg4&start_radio=1
>>130172944I tried to get a friend into Mahler using Fischer's recording of the 4th -- they never listened to Mahler again.I'm sure it wasn't Fischer's fault but it's still amusing to me, as I often wonder if only I had recommended a different recording of the 4th, could things have turned out differently, lol.
>>130172953If only Franck hadn't wasn't so much time composing for the organ and harmonium, he could have been a truly great composer.
>>130172975Short and Sweet anon, something the Germans after Beethoven don't understand. Everything he wrote is worth listening to even if it doesn't fit on more than 3 discs
After the premiere of Mahler's Fifth Symphony, TOSCANINI obtained a copy of the score, and later described his reaction:>I read it immediately, or rather devoured it--but unfortunately, during this ferocious musical meal, the initial joy and curiosity gradually waned, changing in the end into a sad, very sad hilarity. Believe me, Mahler is not a genuine artist. His music has neither personality nor genius. It's a mixture of an Italianate style a la Petrella or Leoncavallo, coupled with Tchaikovsky's musical and instrumental bombast and a seeking after Straussian peculiarities, although boasting an opposite system, without having the originality of the last two. At every step you fall, not into a commonplace, but into some triviality. Look at this [here T. wrote out 8 bars of the recurring theme of the opening funeral march]. Petrella and Leoncavallo would look disdainfully at this nice little march motif. .. Mahler is shameless enough to introduce it in the first movement of a symphony ... , etc., etc.
>>130172975His organ music is some of his best work.
>>130173068Again, a lot of that seems complaints about the creative structural freedom and style appropriation of modernist writ-large. Which is fine, but has little if anything to do with the actual quality of the work and artist. It'd be like saying Cezanne was shit because his paintings are too blurry or Joyce was shit because his Ulysses couldn't stick to one realist style.
>>130173078HIs counterpoint is some of the best after Bach, He's the son of the Obrecht, Ockeghemm, and Lassus
>>130173068pot calling the kettle black
>>130171997>>130172341I think "minimal" is the wrong word. "Less" is more correct. They still used vibrato, but more for emphasis, and generally not the wholesale approach that later singers would use. They also utilized a lot more portamento. Generally speaking the loss of portamento in the 20th century led many performers to overcompensate with vibrato to recover the legato line. Here's Lilli Lehmann, one of the very first Isoldes.https://litter.catbox.moe/wm16u1trwemlfmt4.mp3You can hear that she doesn't really use *that* much vibrato, but on certain lines she will emphasize it quite a bit. I think the key difference is that the vibrato has extremely minimal wobble, You can see on a spectrogram that the pitch variances are extremely tight, almost straight. So it doesn't really sound like our modern idea of vibrato.Much the same could be said of earlier string ensembles like the Capet Quartet, Kolisch Quartet, Rose Quartet, Klingler Quartet, etc.
>>130173137>Again, a lot of that seems complaints about the creative structural freedom and style appropriation of modernist writ-large.Not really. There's a difference between criticising an artwork for being, in itself, avant-garde and structurally free, and then criticising an avant-garde and structurally free artwork for being flawed or in bad taste. Art isn't immune from criticism just because it's unconventional. Cezanne and Joyce are bad examples because in the prior the sense of aesthetic unity always remains paramount and tasteful, and even in the craziest moments of Ulysses there is still the realist novel at the base of it. There's nothing trivial that assume structural importance in either of them. A better comparison would be dadaism.
>>130173376By the way, this is what a modern singer looks like (taken from the Janowski recording)You don't even need to listen to this. You can see how different it is. The variances between the pitches are insane. Wobble off the charts.
>>130173441So that's why they call it that.
>>130173441unlistenable. this is definitely one of the reasons why opera fell out of favor with general audiences and was replace by musical theatre
>>130173451Yeah. Wobble is just unstable vibrato. Or technically deficient vibrato.Now, a few caveats: Lehmann is not singing in front of a huge orchestra, it's an acoustic recording so she wouldn't have been singing at full volume (technical limitations of the medium), and even if she were in front of an orchestra in a full concert hall of the day, the orchestra would have been both smaller and so too would the venue. Most opera venues have been expanded over the past 100 years and orchestrated are much larger. Therefore singers have to sing louder, and with volume comes instability in one's vibrato.That being said, I still think much of it is still down to poor technicalities. I mean, Lotte Lehmann on the Bruno Walter Walkure (which used a full orchestra) was straight as a whistle, not to mention all the famous singers on the pioneering stereo recordings of Solti/Bohm/Leinsdorf/etc.
My thing lately is reading about true crime while listening to classical. This past week I've been doing a deep-dive into the JonBonet Ramsey murder while doing all of my classical listening. A couple weeks ago it was the Zodiac. The only problem is sometimes I get so engrossed I forget to listen to the music, lol.
A shame Solti never recorded Rachmaninoff's symphonies. Apparently he has a recording of the second piano concerto with the great Julius Katchen, but considering I never heard of it and can't find any writings about it, it probably isn't good either so doesn't count.
>>130173713>Solti playing Rachmaninoffpeak firetruck
Faurehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLig3V5BpjQ&list=OLAK5uy_nBLyzoxZNqw6A_A4KnWLuXfayDGw75evk&index=5>Pianist Charles Owens follows a critically acclaimed release of Fauré s popular Nocturnes with a relative rarity: a complete survey of the composer s Barcarolles uniquely coupled with Trois Romances sans paroles, Fauré s first published works for piano. The Barcarolles straddle the turn of the 20th century and span a four-decade period, from 1880 1921. The works dedicatees were a veritable roll call of Parisian musical elite. Though written and published separately, they hang together well through their combination of mystery, humanity, and inner poetry. Yet it is a rare pianist who plays all thirteen, a task that Charles Owen lives up to brilliantly!>Exemplary. Classic. Spellbinding. And enthusiastically recommended. --Fanfare
>>130173376According to this opera singer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGzqVmdNJL0) modern vocal coaches think that vibrato = healthy voice, so the more vibrato you use, the longer your voice will last and the more healthy and "natural" it will sound. And over time, huge vibratos established themselves as the sign of a good singer, so if you don't do them, you will have less of a chance to get hired, critics might bash you, etc.
Verdihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei4jkyoJmvs&list=OLAK5uy_nk720izpXGO94fAucahDi3ZSmnQkQQ-Mc&index=12
kittyBrunnhilde.png
Debussy Preludes: do you prefer book 1 or book 2?book 1 Michelangelihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL2ScCnzSPAbook 2 Richterhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpqOwSHiFDw
>>130174565
>>130173068>Later, William Steinberg recalled rehearsing Das Lied von der Erde in Milan, when Toscanini chanced to enter the hall and asked what the music was. Astonished at his ignorance, Steinberg told him that it was one of the last scores that Mahler had ever written, at which Toscanini exclaimed: 'My God! I didn't know he could write so well!' At that, he turned on his heels and fled, fearful, no doubt, that he might have to admit that all his life he had made a mistake. The anthology of Toscanini's letters edited and published by Harvey Sachs includes a strange telegram addressed to Bruno Walter and dated 11 September 1956, a year before Toscanini's death:>I was moved by your beautiful performance of Mahler's symphonies and Lieder performed by that divine voice I embrace you with great friendship. Arturo Toscanini
Apparently Kent Nagano has been recording a Ring cycle on historical instruments.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o69ZYOzR69c
>>130174634lol I love how these guys born in the 19th century are always described as 'fled' when they walk away, it really adds color to the shame of these prideful men
>>130174638Nagano is a pretty good conductor. I'm looking forward to it.
Debussyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAaCAj_eV4A&list=OLAK5uy_nq0vgtC5wqjJHO6rd6sAiaIv3oTOXUdIc&index=1
That one anon who thinks Faure's Nocturnes is the best over Chopin's and Field's, what's your favorite recording of them? Collard's?
>>130175056There's more than one of us for sure since I didn't make all those posts, but Thyssens-Valentin is the classic set. Le Sage is a great contemporary one, better than Collard IMO.
Field's Nocturnes are pretty good. Faure's Nocturnes are great, occasionally even stellar. Chopin's Nocturnes are like the 8th Wonder of the World. When Earth joins the Galactic Federation and our rights and rank are determined by the quality of our creative output, Chopin's Nocturnes should be one of the very first things we submit. My two cents, anyway.
>>130175212Faure apologists never cease to amaze me. Faure's nocturnes are fucking garbage. Listen to his piano quartets.
>>130175254Wrong.
>>130175254Hey if liking Faure's solo piano music makes me an apologist then sign me up. Besides, he didn't just compose Nocturnes, he also has Barcarolles, Impromptus, Preludes, Valse-Caprices, a Ballade, and more, all worthwhile. Even if you don't like any particular one, you should at least like some of it.Unless you're one of those "only Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms composed any worthwhile solo piano music" types. In which case, based, but fuck off.
>>130175254Not wrong.
>>130172953Franck, the great Walloon musical genius alongside Gretry
>>130172619Damn, that's pretty awesome. Don't have a recommend but thank you for giving one. You might like organ concerto's of Widor. 5 and 6 are nice.
>>130171997pre-Tebaldi Italian sopranos featured a fast vibrato.Recording engineers had a difficult time recording vibrato hence the employment of singers with slow, less pronounced vibrato.To hear pre-Tebaldi vibrato nowadays is disconcerting to many listeners because it has been suppressed on account of mid-20th century recording technicalities.
>>130169579That's all? I accept your concession.
>>130175254It makes little sense to like Fauré's chamber music, but somehow despise his solo piano music. Not very consistent. Also, what the fuck is a "Fauré apologist"? Anon (>>130175212) made a perfectly measured post. You seem obsessed.
>>130175056>that one anonThere's at least two of us. Anyway, Thyssens-Valentin is the obvious answer.
>>130172619I wish. I've looked but found nothing so far.
>Thyssens-Valentinhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmf8bTVD774&list=OLAK5uy_lKTq6vn7r8cXUqnndGCj2tastu0PQBeYc&index=9
>>130176391>1956The sound is fine.
>>130176447Better than I remember but I already had my mind on making that post with the picture, so it couldn't be helped.
>>130176338>>130176357Faure apologists in panic
>>130176357And his chamber music is quite good and memorable, whereas his half-assed nocturnes aren't.
>>130176461>>130176469Samefag is obsessed
>>130176618You can't really call 'samefag' on an obvious double-post that starts with 'And', making it apparent they're adding onto their first post, anon, lol.
>>130176637Not how that works. Anyway, samefag is obsessed because he has a history of samefagging:>>130169579>>130169602>>130169615>>130169656>>130169674Now continue samefagging. I guess that's the only thing you can do when you're painfully wrong.
>>130176665That's still not samefagging, that's just them being consistent! Samefagging is like if I went,>>130176637this anon is so right
>>130176679>themSamefag developed schizophrenia now? Or is he just a newfag?
>>130176696;oCarry on, fren
>>130176700Whatever you say, newfag samefag.
>>130176709>>130176696>>130176665>>130176618s-samefag!
>>130176718Kek, samefag doesn't know what samefagging is and is having a meltdown.
>>130176726wtf stop samefagging!!
>>130171958debate: do you consider japanese vidya composers classical or worthy successors to classical? do they excel western classical composers?
>>130176735see >>130176726
>>130176736no, no, and no>>>/v/>>>/trash/>>>/rym/
>>130176743>see>links back to his own samefagso obvious!!!
>>130176736Worthy successors? They're not even unworthy successors. They're not successors. They're simply playing a different game. A much shittier and gayer game, but a different game nonetheless.>excelHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>130176736it depends on the quality and integrity of the composer and his works. I would consider Hisaishi classical but I'm not sure about the others.
>>130176766>>130176748>t. ash worshippers
>>130176736If Ching Chong videogame soundtrack composers are now considered 'classical', then the word has lost all its meaning.
>>130176778classical has been available in digital form for many decades now, anon!
>>130176763see >>130176743
>>130176806>>130176743samefag
>>130176806>>130176811samefag
>>130176811>>130176817samefag
ok that's enough autism-larping for one morninglisten to Prokofiev's Cello Sonatahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeH-330FJf4
>>130176866samefag
>>130176887i confess! it was me with rostropovich with the baton in the auditorium!
>>130176618Says the Faure apologist>>130176665Lmao. Meds
>>130175254Truth nuke.They suck.
So what's the consensus here on Bernstein's Mahler's 9th? Any of the three (NYP, Concertgebouw, Berlin Phil.). I'm not sure if I've even heard the NYP or BPO ones, especially with all contentious sentiments toward the latter (I think the ones who love it really love it? I'm not sure -- I know the ones who hate it really, really hate it though). As for the Concertgebouw one, for that approach, I've always thought MTT did a much finer job, so it's not one I ever really return to.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTjex4t1wzM&list=OLAK5uy_nBSyOZ1m0kwJ8zikY0YYnjtOvoG45VYAI&index=1Anyway, what do you guys think?
>>130176778Yo what’s an ash worshipper?
speaking of Mahler, continuing with the Bichkov/Czech Phil Mahler cycle that recently got released as a complete set, right now with the 6thhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq7r-5tqZ7U&list=OLAK5uy_kfWJspr5hfj-l90N68iw9iVtb8xWq5RD0&index=26>Symphony No. 6 in A minor (1903–04) stands as a tragic case in point. Outwardly the most ‘Classical’ work in the cycle, with its four movements and a repeated exposition in the first, it is also an act of disavowal – if not of complete destruction. A nefarious spirit runs through the militaristic first movement and Scherzo, while the Finale’s hammer blows drive the point home with devastating force. Only the Andante offers brief solace, its jangling cowbells and aching melodies recalling Beethoven’s bucolic world as a distant ideal. Yet this E flat major slow movement lies at a tritonal remove from the Symphony’s prevailing tonality, offering no true resolution. There will be no thanksgiving after the storm here—only a profoundly unsettling vision that lingers long after the final note.Interestingly, it's a Scherzo-Andante performance, which is increasingly rare for performances and recordings of the symphony from this century. see: Rattle/BRSO, Chailly/Gewandhaus, Harding/BRSO, Gergiev/LSO, Zinman/Tonhalle, among others. So it's already off to an propitious start.
Saint-Saënshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Aea7FDq-I
What are the fundamentals that a young composer must understand these days? Where can you find orientation in an age of "anything goes"?
>>130177532Seems like a question best posed for teachers, academics, and fellow students at a music school/conservatory. The only useful advice I can really offer is listen to what other contemporary composers are doing, always a great source for potential inspiration and keeping informed of any trends or fashionable ideas.
>>130177532Avoiding reddit at all cost
>>130177563For actually useful discussions and answers, /r/classicalmusic and related subreddits over there are actually pretty helpful!
>>130177584Yikes
>>130177532I will discuss this matter in detail later.
>>130177532You could consider doing something original, like using 32 TET or whatever, and developing your own harmonic language within that system. Not necessarily something dissonant and unlistenable, but harmonic, yet microtonal. Or you could try experimenting with timbres, sonorities, instruments. Whatever grabs your attention the most.I don't think you can find a single place where you can "find orientation", you should look in your own mind.
>>130177790post your tits or fuck off.
>>130177790You are describing a soundscape devoid of melodies.
microtonality is the musical equivalent of Atheism.
>>130177747Mr. Redditor himself has arrived, straight from goymany.
>>130177870I'm not. There's nothing preventing microtonal music from being melodic and harmonious. In fact, rules of counterpoint can be extended and developed for microtonal music too, and that is something probably a very few have tried.
>>130178124Microtonality is already so complex that adding counterpoint would be overwhelming even for the most musically discerning listeners.
